Politics Thread

[GoMuskies]

Trump voters demanding "safe spaces".
http://www.salon.com/2016/12/09/donald-trumps-college-supporters-think-they-should-have-safe-spaces/

Ha, you should probably read the article.

[GoMuskies]

Hey guys, our next President is publicly fighting with CIA about Putin and putting a CEO who is friends and business partners with Putin as Secretary of State.

I think I like the Tillerson pick. I preferred Romney, but Tillerson is better than Giuliani or Bolton IMO. Leading a company like Exxon really should be excellent experience for this job.

As of the CIA, maybe not the best to feud with them publicly, but I don't really have a probably with Trump taking them on. Someone needs to.

[Caf]

I think the most ironic pick so far is 3 men who are either Goldman Sachs alumni or current employees. Simply because Trump, and literally everyone, was critical of Clinton giving speeches there. However, that was probably my least favorite of the 10,000 non-issues during the campaign.

[GoMuskies]

Excluding anyone with Goldman ties from a search for economic advisors would make about as much sense as excluding anyone with Princeton ties from a search for really smart people.

[X-band '01]

Hey guys, our next President is publicly fighting with CIA about Putin and putting a CEO who is friends and business partners with Putin as Secretary of State.

Those will be entertaining confirmation hearings in the Senate to say the least.

[Juice]

I think the most ironic pick so far is 3 men who are either Goldman Sachs alumni or current employees. Simply because Trump, and literally everyone, was critical of Clinton giving speeches there. However, that was probably my least favorite of the 10,000 non-issues during the campaign.

It wasn't that she gave speeches. It was that she talked shit about Wall Street but gave speeches to them and accepted money from them as she pretended she was going to fight against them.

[Caf]

Excluding anyone with Goldman ties from a search for economic advisors would make about as much sense as excluding anyone with Princeton ties from a search for really smart people.

That would be a fair comparison if Princeton had to settle with the SEC for its role in the global financial crisis.

[Caf]

It wasn't that she gave speeches. It was that she talked shit about Wall Street but gave speeches to them and accepted money from them as she pretended she was going to fight against them.

On the point of the speeches, that's true. Bernie was more of the one that hit her on the simple fact that she gave the speeches. However, Trump did go after her for being "controlled" by Goldman money.

[GoMuskies]

That would be a fair comparison if Princeton had to settle with the SEC for its role in the global financial crisis.

Irrelevant. The best and brightest gravitate to Goldman. If you want the best and brightest, you're often going to have to look to people who've worked at Goldman.

[Caf]

Irrelevant. The best and brightest gravitate to Goldman. If you want the best and brightest, you're often going to have to look to people who've worked at Goldman.

I'm not sure how that's irrelevant. I agree that Goldman people are smart and will do a fine job, but people are understandably skeptical of the name since '08. Also Goldman doesn't have a monopoly on the best and brightest. Most chairs of the council of advisers were academics in past careers.

[GoMuskies]

I didn't say they had a monopoly on the best and brightest. Just that the best and brightest tend to gravitate there. In other words, they get their fair share. Refusing to consider people for economic posts because they are affiliated with Goldman would be insanely idiotic.

[bobbiemcgee]

Guess you missed the point. Attacked Hilliary and Cruz for their GS affiliations, then loads cabinet 4.0.

[GoMuskies]

Personally, I've never been worried about anyone's GS affiliations. It was one of my favorite things about Hillary, to tell you the truth.

[bobbiemcgee]

Apparently trump's war on the Big Banks and Wall St. was short lived (1month). He loves 'em.

[GoMuskies]

Good.

So far WS loves Trump, apparently. Dow 20,000 might even happen today.

[Caf]

I didn't say they had a monopoly on the best and brightest. Just that the best and brightest tend to gravitate there. In other words, they get their fair share. Refusing to consider people for economic posts because they are affiliated with Goldman would be insanely idiotic.

There's a big difference between "refusing to consider" and what he's doing.

[paulxu]

Guess you missed the point. Attacked Hilliary and Cruz for their GS affiliations, then loads cabinet 4.0.

You can fool enough of the people, all of the time...or at least through November 8th.

[Smails]

You can fool enough of the people, all of the time...or at least through November 8th.

It's this exact narrative that got Donald Trump elected. Trump supporters are dumb and easily fooled..simple minded, uneducated.....blah blah..wash..rinse..repeat.

[Caf]

Big veto by Kasich

[GoMuskies]

Big veto by Kasich

What a puss.

[Caf]

What a puss.

I think signing the 20 week was a smart move. The heart beat bill didn't have a chance at surviving a court challenge.

[GoMuskies]

The heart beat bill didn't have a chance at surviving a court challenge.

Maybe not today, but it would take a few years to get to the Supreme Court. Things will be changing.

[Caf]

Maybe not today, but it would take a few years to get to the Supreme Court. Things will be changing.

Even Ohio Right to Life was against that bill. It's not going anywhere. Trump appointments or not.

[GoMuskies]

Now that it's been vetoed it's certainly not going anywhere.

[Caf]

Now that it's been vetoed it's certainly not going anywhere.

You know what I mean. That bill (and similar forms of it) have been tried in several states.

[GoMuskies]

And since 1973 there hasn't been a Supreme Court that was potentially amenable to allowing such a law to stand. By the time this one found it's way to the Supreme Court, that may no longer have been the case.

[ChicagoX]

And since 1973 there hasn't been a Supreme Court that was potentially amenable to allowing such a law to stand. By the time this one found it's way to the Supreme Court, that may no longer have been the case.

This is pretty doubtful considering both Roberts and Kennedy are on record stating the Roe v. Wade is settled law. I know this will probably ruffle some feathers on this board, but it's been more than 43 years since Roe v. Wade, and it will never, ever be overturned. It's settled law and it's not going anywhere. The best hope for pro-lifers is for more state legislatures to limit it to 20 months instead of the current 24 months that is the current federal limit.

In his confirmation hearing in 2003 to the appeals court, when asked about abortion, Roberts said that the Supreme Court was clear on the matter, and he could uphold it: “Roe v. Wade is the settled law of the land,” he said. “There’s nothing in my personal views that would prevent me from fully and faithfully applying that precedent.”

[GoMuskies]

No reason for him to say different in 2003. Circumstances have (or are about to) change.

Kennedy already had his shot at it and blew it.

Lots of "settled law" eventually gets unsettled.

[ChicagoX]

Lots of "settled law" eventually gets unsettled.

I agree, but this is not one of them.

[bobbiemcgee]

Yep, the "coat hanger in the back alley days " may return soon under Trump.

[GoMuskies]

I agree, but this is not one of them.

I'm sure you hope you're right.

[GoMuskies]

Yep, the "coat hanger in the back alley days " may return soon under Trump.

One can dare to dream...

[ChicagoX]

I'm sure you hope you're right.

It doesn't really matter to me since I don't have a uterus, but I'm confident in the Supreme Court's ability to interpret which laws are settled and which are not. There is simply no way abortion will ever become illegal in the 21st century.

[GoMuskies]

There is simply no way abortion will ever become illegal in the 21st century.

Keep telling yourself that. It will make you feel better.

I bet you never thought Donald Trump would be President, either.

[ChicagoX]

Keep telling yourself that. It will make you feel better.

I bet you never thought Donald Trump would be President, either.

Trump winning did not shock me all that much since I knew Hillary was a flawed candidate and particularly after Brexit. I'm sorry if this upsets you, but abortion will never become illegal in this country. And as males, I don't think our opinions on women's reproductive care have much merit or should even matter at all since we don't have a uterus.

[GoMuskies]

And as males, I don't think our opinions on women's reproductive care have much merit or should even matter at all since we don't have a uterus.

This is just stupid. But you are certainly entitled to your (stupid IMO) opinion.

As for the rest, time will tell. Again, I'm sure you hope you're right.

[D-West & PO-Z]

This is just stupid. But you are certainly entitled to your (stupid IMO) opinion.

As for the rest, time will tell. Again, I'm sure you hope you're right.

Yeah I dont get that either.

[Strange Brew]

So, Trump goes on trial on Friday for raping a 13 year old...oh wait that was fake news (shocker, some of you are very gullible). What now? Recount! Oh, what, that's backfiring? Ruskies!

I'm popping some more popcorn.

[boozehound]

I'm not sure that the Russian interference claims are on the same level as fake news about Trump raping a 13 year old or Hillary Clinton running a child sex slave ring out of the basement of a Pizza Place.

Here's what I don't understand about Trump: Many people who voted for him seemed to do some somewhat reluctantly, at least many of the people I know. Now that he is President those same people are seemingly not in favor of any oversight into what he is doing. They defend all his ridiculous cabinet picks, his complete lack of transparency, his nepotism, and his seeming lack of interest in the job.

How did Trump get this blank check? Is he really a President that we want to put that level of trust in? We still have no idea how he is going to structure his business dealings to eliminate conflicts of interest. He is bringing back the apprentice and will be executive producer (WTF?). It's one thing to vote for him because you think he is a better option than Hillary Clinton, I can understand that. It's another thing entirely to place him completely above reproach. That I cannot understand.

Once we pick sides, we really stick to it I guess.

[Lloyd Braun]

To me a Trump presidency is like when Mufasa dies and Scar takes over. He introduces the hyenas as they slowly come out of the darkness and all the animals are like "whoa wait wtf is this about!?"
The hyenas are excited that's for sure.

[Caf]

And since 1973 there hasn't been a Supreme Court that was potentially amenable to allowing such a law to stand. By the time this one found it's way to the Supreme Court, that may no longer have been the case.

I don't think you're putting up what I'm putting down. I think Roe v Wade has a shot at being overturned over Trump, IF the alternative is 20 wk bans. A heartbeat bill, with not exceptions, is not going to go federal. There are enough conservatives who support exceptions to hold it back.

[GoMuskies]

I don't think you're putting up what I'm putting down. I think Roe v Wade has a shot at being overturned over Trump, IF the alternative is 20 wk bans. A heartbeat bill, with not exceptions, is not going to go federal. There are enough conservatives who support exceptions to hold it back.

A ban post 20 weeks doesn't require overturning Roe v. Wade. And a heartbeat bill wouldn't need to go federal. Overturning Roe v. Wade wouldn't necessarily make abortion illegal. It would just allow individual states to have laws like the one Kasich vetoed.

[Caf]

A ban post 20 weeks doesn't require overturning Roe v. Wade. And a heartbeat bill wouldn't need to go federal. Overturning Roe v. Wade wouldn't necessarily make abortion illegal. It would just allow individual states to have laws like the one Kasich vetoed.

I could be wrong, but I believe the federal courts have held the line at viability which is 24 weeks.

[Smails]

To me a Trump presidency is like when Mufasa dies and Scar takes over. He introduces the hyenas as they slowly come out of the darkness and all the animals are like "whoa wait wtf is this about!?"
The hyenas are excited that's for sure.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O4-NZWpToHM

[SemajParlor]

To me a Trump presidency is like when Mufasa dies and Scar takes over. He introduces the hyenas as they slowly come out of the darkness and all the animals are like "whoa wait wtf is this about!?"
The hyenas are excited that's for sure.

You don't understand the real Animal Kingdom you elitist.

[Caf]

[video=youtube;O4-NZWpToHM]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O4-NZWpToHM

Do you ever actually say anything? Or are all of your posts just rhetorical interjects?

[GoMuskies]

I could be wrong, but I believe the federal courts have held the line at viability which is 24 weeks.

I don't know the actual rule in weeks or if one actually exists (Planned Parenthood v. Casey is the current authority), but the rule is that you cannot have a law that is an undue burden on a woman's right to abortion. Moving the line from 24 to 20 weeks doesn't necessarily require even overturning that precedent. It would just require the Court to decide that 20 weeks isn't an "undue burden".

That's a far cry from overturning Roe v. Wade.

[Caf]

I don't know the actual rule in weeks or if one actually exists (Planned Parenthood v. Casey is the current authority), but the rule is that you cannot have a law that is an undue burden on a woman's right to abortion. Moving the line from 24 to 20 weeks doesn't necessarily require even overturning that precedent. It would just require the Court to decide that 20 weeks isn't an "undue burden".

That's a far cry from overturning Roe v. Wade.

I see what you're saying. I'd be interested to learn more about the movement. There's definitely a nationwide push by prolife organizations to put the 20 week bans in as many states as possible. I know Roe v Wade is the ultimate target, but I'm unsure of what role 20 wks plays in a strategy.

[GoMuskies]

I'm sure they're just trying to push the line as far as possible under current law.

By the way, if medical technology advanced enough to make a fetus at 6 weeks viable outside the womb, there'd be a good argument for a ban on abortions post week 6 of pregnancy. If a Catholic university with a good medical school announced the creation of a center dedicated to making fetuses viable outside the womb as early as possible, they'd break fundraising records the next day. And with medical technology advancing as rapidly as it currently is, you just never know what's possible.

[paulxu]

This is starting to have a Matrix feel to it.

[ChicagoX]

I see what you're saying. I'd be interested to learn more about the movement. There's definitely a nationwide push by prolife organizations to put the 20 week bans in as many states as possible. I know Roe v Wade is the ultimate target, but I'm unsure of what role 20 wks plays in a strategy.

Almost 99% of abortions take place before the 20-week mark, so in the end, this doesn't really do anything anyway. In Ohio in 2015, just 145 of the 20,976 abortions took place after that 20-week mark, which is 0.007% of the abortions in the state. Most of the time when abortions happen after 20 weeks, it's because of a major birth defect or something related to the health of the mother.

Also, abortion has trended down fairly significantly during the Obama administration, and this is partly due to more women having easier access to birth control. If you don't like abortion, then you should definitely be pro-birth control since that's the best way to prevent unplanned pregnancies. We live in a country where 95%+ of all Americans have sex before marriage, and abstinence-only education has proven to lead to higher pregnancy and STD rates.

[GoMuskies]

Birth control should be in the water like fluoride.

[ArizonaXUGrad]

I am literally as pro-choice as you get, but I can't see any reason why we can't have a 24 week ban in place with exceptions (mother's health, etc.). As far as the Trump presidency, I also see no reason why we should send our country back 50 years. The idea is to move forward not backwards. Backroom/alley abortions is an embarrassment of the past that does not need to be repeated.

[GoMuskies]

Backroom/alley abortions is an embarrassment of the past that does not need to be repeated.

All abortion is an embarrassment.

[ChicagoX]

All abortion is an embarrassment.

Says the person without a uterus who has never had to deal with an unplanned pregnancy, been raped or been pregnant with a child with a serious birth defect.

[GoMuskies]

Says the person without a uterus

Not relevant.

[SemajParlor]

Birth control should be in the water like fluoride.

Fluoride in water is a government mind controlling agent. Kidding... kind of.

[bobbiemcgee]

I think I like the Tillerson pick. I preferred Romney, but Tillerson is better than Giuliani or Bolton IMO. Leading a company like Exxon really should be excellent experience for this job.

Sure, cuz when he gets the sanctions released for his thug/murdering brother, Exxon stands to makes billions and billions. Then we got two more nominees who want to essentially eliminate their positions by destroying their agencies. One guy can't even remember the name of the Agency he is now going to head. The National Security Director nominee hates the CIA. Fast food clown thinks 7 bucks is a good wage. Trump wants the Russian interference claims "to go away". Why? What is he afraid of? His own son said Ruskie money was pouring into the Trump Organization, but we can't verify bcuz, of course, he won't release his "no tax" returns.
So now we got the Swamp populated with older, rich, white guys just like Trump and Mc Connell's wife. Oh, yeah. Hey, that's your Republican party now.
Biz as usual.

[GoMuskies]

State has a lot more to do than deal with Russia and sanctions. Tillerson will have to divest his Exxon stock, and he's not going to be able to do anything about Russian sanctions unless Trump wants sanctions against Russia eased.

I generally regard Perry as a moron, so I'm not a big fan. Sessions? Negative. EPA is a clusterfuck that needs new direction, but I'm not sure the Oklahoma AG is the right guy to do it. As mentioned above, I like Tillerson. Chao is certainly qualified. Mnuchin is a brilliant pick for Treasury. Mattis is certainly qualified, but I don't know enough about him to like or dislike his pick. Carson is obviously a brilliant guy, but I'm not sure what qualifies him to run HUD (as opposed to say, be surgeon general). Priebus seems like a huge prick, but I think that's the main job of a Chief of Staff (certainly a guy like Rahm would make you think that). Wilbur Ross is fantastic for Commerce. Puzder for Labor? Meh, but you're not getting the head of the AFL-CIO for a Republican administration. DeVos is interesting for Education. Could be a disaster, but I'll give her a shot. Nothing needs shaking up like our education system. I don't know much about Tom Price at HHS. Nor Michael Flynn for NSA.

Should be an interesting ride.

[Nigel Tufnel]

This discussion reminds me of Bill Burr on population control:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wgcmCyKZR08

Starts at about 1:45 in...

[LA Muskie]

Trump's replacement of Scalia will not alter the Court's idealogical makeup and hence won't have a significant effect on constitutional jurisprudence.

But RBG, Breyer, and Kennedy are all ALREADY past the average age of Supreme Court retirement/ death. If Trump gets to replace any one of them -- and particularly the first two -- the idealogical shift would be huge (and likely long lasting). At which point Roe v Wade and marriage equality are both very much in play.

The best (but largely unlikely) scenario for the left is that they are all able to stick out another 4 yrs. A close second is that they are able to stick it out through the mid-term elections in two years so that Dems can get enough power in the Senate to prevent a filibuster rule change and roadblock any vacancies in Trump's last two years like the Repubs did to Obama this year.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[bigdiggins]

Sure, cuz when he gets the sanctions released for his thug/murdering brother, Exxon stands to makes billions and billions. Then we got two more nominees who want to essentially eliminate their positions by destroying their agencies. One guy can't even remember the name of the Agency he is now going to head. The National Security Director nominee hates the CIA. Fast food clown thinks 7 bucks is a good wage. Trump wants the Russian interference claims "to go away". Why? What is he afraid of? His own son said Ruskie money was pouring into the Trump Organization, but we can't verify bcuz, of course, he won't release his "no tax" returns.
So now we got the Swamp populated with older, rich, white guys just like Trump and Mc Connell's wife. Oh, yeah. Hey, that's your Republican party now.
Biz as usual.

$7 is a good wage for the skill required to do that work. You don't want to make $7 obtain a skill that is marketable. If i can train a 16 year old to
Do that job in a matter of hours it is not a job that necessitates pay in excess of $30k per year.

[Smails]

Do you ever actually say anything? Or are all of your posts just rhetorical interjects?


My apologies for not responding to the Lion King/Mustafa reference with a more noteworthy diatribe. Lord knows this board need more of that.

Can you do me a favor and shoot me the link to the message board rules or some sort of conversion chart that determines which posts are merely rhetorical interjections and those that are rated as real, hard-hitting, thought provoking and society influencing?

[Caf]

$7 is a good wage for the skill required to do that work. You don't want to make $7 obtain a skill that is marketable. If i can train a 16 year old to
Do that job in a matter of hours it is not a job that necessitates pay in excess of $30k per year.

Sorry but if you think the argument for higher wages is simply the value of work, you are completely missing the point. The value of the work hasn't changed, it's the value of living which has. Some liberal politicians may phrase it that way, but the movement is gaining steam simply because the minimum wage hasn't kept up with the pace of inflation.

[Caf]

My apologies for not responding to the Lion King/Mustafa reference with a more noteworthy diatribe. Lord knows this board need more of that.

Can you do me a favor and shoot me the link to the message board rules or some sort of conversion chart that determines which posts are merely rhetorical interjections and those that are rated as real, hard-hitting, thought provoking and society influencing?

Feel free to post what you like. No one's stopping you. I'd just prefer if people who throw attacks and insults from the periphery actually participated in substance discussions occasionally. And based on the number of reps I got on that post, I'm not alone.

The lion king analogy was ridiculous. I agree that it goes both ways.

[LA Muskie]

$7 is a good wage for the skill required to do that work. You don't want to make $7 obtain a skill that is marketable. If i can train a 16 year old to
Do that job in a matter of hours it is not a job that necessitates pay in excess of $30k per year.

Minimum wages are a function of cost of living, not employment "value". All depressing wages does is shift the obligation to fund a living wage from the employer to the government by way of "entitlements". Because it is literally impossible to live in the US, much less raise a family, for the

[GoMuskies]

Wages are a function of cost of living, not employment "value".

This is very, very false unless you intended to include the word "minimum" at the start of this statement.

And minimum wages should be $10 or $10.25 and then tied to inflation forever so that we don't have to talk about this should-be non-issue ever again.

[LA Muskie]

This is very, very false unless you intended to include the word "minimum" at the start of this statement.

And minimum wages should be $10 or $10.25 and then tied to inflation forever so that we don't have to talk about this should-be non-issue ever again.

Correct and fixed. I meant minimum wages. Although I personally believe bloated executive comp (we could call it "maximum wages") is also detached from "value".

I agree the middle is generally market driven.

I think minimum wages should be tied to both a cost of living index and inflation.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[ArizonaXUGrad]

Go ahead and jump in a time machine then and travel back to yesteryear. Coat hanger/back room abortions are awful. Here is an idea, why don't you exercise your right to choose and let the next person exercise their right to choose as well. You do know it's legal at a minimum to save a woman's life in 96% of countries in this world.


All abortion is an embarrassment.

[GoMuskies]

Coat hanger/back room abortions are awful.

All abortions are awful.

[Muskie in dayton]

To me a Trump presidency is like when Mufasa dies and Scar takes over. He introduces the hyenas as they slowly come out of the darkness and all the animals are like "whoa wait wtf is this about!?"
The hyenas are excited that's for sure.

If you replace "Trump" with "Obama" the other half of this board will agree.

And as an aside, picturing the animals in the Lion King movie saying "wtf" is pretty funny.

[Caf]

This is very, very false unless you intended to include the word "minimum" at the start of this statement.

And minimum wages should be $10 or $10.25 and then tied to inflation forever so that we don't have to talk about this should-be non-issue ever again.

Agreed 1000%. I'm sure there are other ways to make the math work too i.e. food prices, property values etc. There's no need for these wars over arbitrary wage numbers every so often.

[ArizonaXUGrad]

So a woman who was raped, incest, and those where the woman's own health is severely at risk don't matter either......check. Your regard for humanity and human life is interesting to me.


All abortions are awful.

[bobbiemcgee]

$7 is a good wage for the skill required to do that work. You don't want to make $7 obtain a skill that is marketable. If i can train a 16 year old to
Do that job in a matter of hours it is not a job that necessitates pay in excess of $30k per year.

How about 14k a yr.? Standing on your feet for 7 a hr. is not even a good wage. Where do you live....Bolivia? Babysitters make more with no tax.

[GoMuskies]

So a woman who was raped, incest, and those where the woman's own health is severely at risk don't matter either......check. Your regard for humanity and human life is interesting to me.

Abortion in those situations are still awful. Someone is dying. But they're much more understandable.

Your lack of regard for human life is interesting to me.

[Lloyd Braun]

The lion king analogy was ridiculous. I agree that it goes both ways.

Umm the lion king analogy was a joke... is that not very obvious!? Lion king, people!

If I'm going to make a serious comment it would be what a farce of a campaign Trump ran that every platform was either fake or baseless. Today's interest rate announcement is the cherry on top. The economy is in such terrible shape we are raising the federal rate!

[94GRAD]

Umm the lion king analogy was a joke... is that not very obvious!? Lion king, people!

If I'm going to make a serious comment it would be what a farce of a campaign Trump ran that every platform was either fake or baseless. Today's interest rate announcement is the cherry on top. The economy is in such terrible shape we are raising the federal rate!

A lot of folks are going to miss the sarcasm in that sentence.

[SemajParlor]

Umm the lion king analogy was a joke... is that not very obvious!? Lion king, people!

Oh so like when Scar appealed to the masses through empty and unrealistic promises, unified his core base through perpetual threats of violence to the opposition, ran a campaign built off fear mongering and hatred of others... He he, funny joke!

[GoMuskies]

Oh so like when Scar appealed to the masses through empty and unrealistic promises, unified his core base through perpetual threats of violence to the opposition, ran a campaign built off fear mongering and hatred of others... He he, funny joke!

Little known fact: Scar was actually the hero of The Liion King, and the movie was actually a tragedy. True story.

[SemajParlor]

Little known fact: Scar was actually the hero of The Liion King, and the movie was actually a tragedy. True story.

In all fairness to Scar, it was a little unfair that he had to deal with such horrific climate conditions. I thought the drought really put a damper on his legacy. One of Animal Kingdom's biggest "what ifs" in my opinion.

[Lloyd Braun]

In all fairness to Scar, it was a little unfair that he had to deal with such horrific climate conditions. I thought the drought really put a damper on his legacy. One of Animal Kingdom's biggest "what ifs" in my opinion.

This is the perfect time to suggest a merge of this thread with the global warming errrrr climate change thread into cyberspace wasteland.

[SemajParlor]

This is the perfect time to suggest a merge of this thread with the global warming errrrr climate change thread into cyberspace wasteland.

If only you knew how close I was to making a Rick Perry joke in there.

[GoMuskies]

This is the perfect time to suggest a merge of this thread with the global warming errrrr climate change thread into cyberspace wasteland.

Muskie missed shutting down the Global Warming thread when he was closing all the political threads.

[bobbiemcgee]

Muskie missed shutting down the Global Warming thread when he was closing all the political threads.

He had to cut down some trees that were interfering with his internet signal.

[bigdiggins]

How about 14k a yr.? Standing on your feet for 7 a hr. is not even a good wage. Where do you live....Bolivia? Babysitters make more with no tax.

The Seattle rate frequently cited as the new goal for those attempting to organize those workers would be $31k per year. There are other jobs which pay more than $7 and they require skills, training, etc which justify that wage. If everyone with no skills can walk in off the streets and make that much what is the incentive to better oneself.

On that note though, a federal minimum wage is not the best way to handle anyway unless you index to a geocode of some sorts. $31k May actually be reasonable in Seattle, but that doesn't indicate it is right in Ashland, Ky

[bigdiggins]

Perhaps I'm too caught up in fast food and not considering the full breadth of minimum wage jobs, but I don't see jobs inhabited by high school kids getting their first taste of being in the workforce and/or bored retirees as needing to pay enough to raise a family.

[mohr5150]

Perhaps I'm too caught up in fast food and not considering the full breadth of minimum wage jobs, but I don't see jobs inhabited by high school kids getting their first taste of being in the workforce and/or bored retirees as needing to pay enough to raise a family.

http://nyti.ms/1pUGFyF

I'm guessing most of those with minimum wage jobs don't fall into those age groups.

[Strange Brew]

On that note though, a federal minimum wage is not the best way to handle anyway unless you index to a geocode of some sorts. $31k May actually be reasonable in Seattle, but that doesn't indicate it is right in Ashland, Ky

Now we're getting somewhere..

[SemajParlor]

On that note though, a federal minimum wage is not the best way to handle anyway unless you index to a geocode of some sorts. $31k May actually be reasonable in Seattle, but that doesn't indicate it is right in Ashland, Ky

Anything federally standardized when it comes to wages / salary is absurd.

[Strange Brew]

Anything federally standardized when it comes to wages / salary is absurd.

Why cant we be friends? Why cant we be friends? Great song. :)

[Caf]

Perhaps I'm too caught up in fast food and not considering the full breadth of minimum wage jobs, but I don't see jobs inhabited by high school kids getting their first taste of being in the workforce and/or bored retirees as needing to pay enough to raise a family.

Ok, but you keep making these arguments about worth, when it really doesn't matter. There are consequences to the fabric of society when unskilled labor can't make a living because they still have bills to pay. It's either them/companies or the government paying them, a hiked wage is just a rebalance. We need minimum wage jobs to be occupied and working 16 year olds aren't the solution.

You can argue that they should get a skill, but that's not a realistic path for many. If that is the mindset of the government then there are going to be a lot of poor and disgruntled people who are left in the dust of inflation.

It boggles my mind when people argue that the poor/unskilled "should just do..." a) because many do and b) there will always be populations of these people and telling them what they should have done is not a solution. Not addressing these problems lead to higher tensions and I believe wage stagnation is a big part of the unrest we've seen in the past decade.

[American X]

Oh so like when Scar appealed to the masses through empty and unrealistic promises, unified his core base through perpetual threats of violence to the opposition, ran a campaign built off fear mongering and hatred of others... He he, funny joke!

Your analogy to the Obama campaigns and administration is frighteningly accurate. Well done.

[SemajParlor]

Your analogy to the Obama campaigns and administration is frighteningly accurate. Well done.

Thanks, but my intention was to compare a cartoon loosely based on a historic fascist rise to power to a modern day fascist rise to power. Side note, the modern day guy also acts like a cartoon. Sad!

[SemajParlor]

Your analogy to the Obama campaigns and administration is frighteningly accurate. Well done.

Obama is an Angel and Trump is the devil. Any deviation from this thinking I will not accept!!!

Additionally, by pointing out Obama admin faults, this completely wipes Trump's flaws away.

[GoMuskies]

Obama is an Angel and Trump is the devil. Any deviation from this thinking I will not accept!!!


Reminds me of something amusing I saw from the Heisman presentation. Essentially, any time you've got an important decision with ethical implications to make, these two guys appear. One over each shoulder.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CzXHTrGWEAA8Yrl.jpg

[Caf]

Reminds me of something amusing I saw from the Heisman presentation. Essentially, any time you've got an important decision with ethical implications to make, these two guys appear. One over each shoulder.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CzXHTrGWEAA8Yrl.jpg

Here's what Johnny Manziel told Heisman winner Lamar Jackson on Saturday night (http://www.cbssports.com/college-football/news/heres-what-johnny-manziel-told-heisman-winner-lamar-jackson-on-saturday-night/)


"Johnny Manziel, he was telling me a lot of positive things," Jackson said. "He told me, 'Man, have fun in college, you can only stay here a certain amount of time, have fun with it.'"

I loved this. I wonder what Tebow's advice would be.

[GoMuskies]

I wonder what Tebow's advice would be.

Don't have as much fun as Manziel did.

[paulxu]

What's with the "thumbs up" sign all the time from Trump?
And the sort of frat boy finger point of his nominees...like this one.

http://ww2.hdnux.com/photos/55/63/17/12006393/7/920x920.jpg

[ChicagoX]

On that note though, a federal minimum wage is not the best way to handle anyway unless you index to a geocode of some sorts. $31k May actually be reasonable in Seattle, but that doesn't indicate it is right in Ashland, Ky

I've always thought that the minimum wage should be tiered toward cost of living. A $15 minimum wage is likely necessary in places like Seattle and San Francisco where the cost of living is exorbitant, but in rural areas with a low cost of living, a lower wage in the $8-$10 range could be enough for a full-time worker to get by and pay bills.

[ArizonaXUGrad]

When your teenage daughter is pregnant and doctors think it will kill her then you can preach on your high horse how "all" abortion is awful. To take that choice out of the mother's hands to save her own life is terrible. I mean it literally sickens me.


Abortion in those situations are still awful. Someone is dying. But they're much more understandable.

Your lack of regard for human life is interesting to me.

[GoMuskies]

When your teenage daughter is pregnant and doctors think it will kill her then you can preach on your high horse how "all" abortion is awful. To take that choice out of the mother's hands to save her own life is terrible. I mean it literally sickens me.

I'll preach right now, thanks. Because I didn't say that a mother shouldn't have that choice where her life is at risk. So take your bullshit, selective sickness somewhere else.

And yes, that abortion is still awful, because someone is still dying. Sometimes things that are necessary still fucking suck.

[muskiefan82]

I've always thought that the minimum wage should be tiered toward cost of living. A $15 minimum wage is likely necessary in places like Seattle and San Francisco where the cost of living is exorbitant, but in rural areas with a low cost of living, a lower wage in the $8-$10 range could be enough for a full-time worker to get by and pay bills.

Which is EXACTLY what the government does. There is a base rate of pay for all General Schedule government employees. A locality percentage is added to the base rate DEPENDENT on where you live. San Fran, Houston, and some others have a very high percentage added. Other places have very little added.

[bobbiemcgee]

4 million sign up for Obamacare for 3 weeks of coverage? Anxious to get switched to Trump's voodoo plan on 1/21 I guess.

[ArizonaXUGrad]

Things I have read state that 'Pubs want to repeal the ACA with the actual final date being pushed out a few years (2-3). This gives Pubs the ability to stand in front of cameras pandering to their base saying they did repeal it, now have 2-3 years to come up with something new, and state the nobody lost coverage currently.

It's actually a pretty good strategy, but if they don't come up with a new plan before it expires it could backfire.


4 million sign up for Obamacare for 3 weeks of coverage? Anxious to get switched to Trump's voodoo plan on 1/21 I guess.

[paulxu]

If you can't figure out something in 7 years of talking about it, I'm not all that confident in 3 more. Smoke and mirrors.

[ArizonaXUGrad]

I agree with you PaulXU, just typing what I have heard/read in the last couple of weeks. Pubs can't repeal the ACA on day #1 with nothing, 10M or more American's won't be covered with Healthcare. That includes my carpool partner's four year old granddaughter.

[bigdiggins]

I agree with you PaulXU, just typing what I have heard/read in the last couple of weeks. Pubs can't repeal the ACA on day #1 with nothing, 10M or more American's won't be covered with Healthcare. That includes my carpool partner's four year old granddaughter.

They would be covered with Healthcare, just like they were covered before the ACA. They may not be covered with Health Insurance, but to say people did not have access to healthcare is just false.

[Pete Delkus]

They would be covered with Healthcare, just like they were covered before the ACA. They may not be covered with Health Insurance, but to say people did not have access to healthcare is just false.

+1

People don't get this fact. The ACA provided people inexpensive (highly subsidized) but generally robust health insurance, relative to the norm. "Access to healthcare" was always available.

I see 4 million people sign up for highly subsidized health insurance, and I don't see this as a good thing. I see continued increases in privatized health insurance premiums to offset the subsidized ACA generated policies.

[bobbiemcgee]

"Access to healthcare" was always available but nobody paid the hospital bill, which, of course led to higher premiums for all. Duh. The American Hospital Assoc. warns Congress they'll take a $165 billion hit with no Obamacare. Preventative care works.

[Pete Delkus]

"Access to healthcare" was always available but nobody paid the hospital bill, which, of course led to higher premiums for all. Duh. The American Hospital Assoc. warns Congress they'll take a $165 billion hit with no Obamacare. Preventative care works.

You want to argue with me that 30 million subsidized health premiums, along with the claims and utilization that accompanies the policies are cheaper than hospital write-offs on the 1-offs of people who don't have insurance?

Go talk to an actuary.

[bobbiemcgee]

Argue? No. 'Pubs aren't going to replace Obamacare without subsidies. It's just going to be a renewed clusterf... with a different name. And NOBODY's going to pay less.

[LA Muskie]

Healthcare insurance costs have steadily risen for the last 20 years. Blaming increased private healthcare insurance costs on the ACA is propaganda.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[paulxu]

You want to argue with me that 30 million subsidized health premiums, along with the claims and utilization that accompanies the policies are cheaper than hospital write-offs on the 1-offs of people who don't have insurance?

Go talk to an actuary.

He's not arguing with you; the American Hospital Association is. And I bet they have actuaries.
There are mandates in the ACA. It's not all subsidized.

[Pete Delkus]

Healthcare insurance costs have steadily risen for the last 20 years. Blaming increased private healthcare insurance costs on the ACA is propaganda.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

So when my clients had to pay for ACA established PCORI, the Health Insurance Industry Fee, Reinsurance fee, etc... I should have said "Wait-don't pay these taxes & stop strategizing how they are going to affect your overall benefit spend, as some person named LA Muskie claims they are "ACA propaganda". "High-Five"

...and if I have to draw the line for you on how these, and other ACA cost increases, punish employer sponsored health plans, then I'm tapping out of this discussion.

[SemajParlor]

Amazing.

http://www.politico.com/story/2016/12/gop-russia-putin-support-232714


The timing of this with the outcry of Castro death statements makes politics worth following. Nothing short of remarkable!

[ChicagoX]

Amazing.

http://www.politico.com/story/2016/12/gop-russia-putin-support-232714


The timing of this with the outcry of Castro death statements makes politics worth following. Nothing short of remarkable!

I never thought I'd see the day where some Republicans are not just sympathetic to Putin and Russia, but also more trusting of them than our own intelligence agencies. Reagan would be losing his shit right now.

[Caf]

I never thought I'd see the day where some Republicans are not just sympathetic to Putin and Russia, but also more trusting of them than our own intelligence agencies. Reagan would be losing his shit right now.

Spoiler alert: people are idiots and don't know the first thing about history.

If you tie in what's happening in Syria, you're asking for a brain hemorrhage. This is why I would have cheered if Romney was selected for Secretary of State. In one of the Presidential debates he famously said Russia was our biggest threat abroad and was mocked for it. It now seems he hit the nail on the head.

[SemajParlor]

Spoiler alert: people are idiots and don't know the first thing about history.



Hey man, this type of logic is the EXACT reason why I support one of the centuries worst human rights abuser. You did this to yourself.

[Juice]

Spoiler alert: people are idiots and don't know the first thing about history.

If you tie in what's happening in Syria, you're asking for a brain hemorrhage. This is why I would have cheered if Romney was selected for Secretary of State. In one of the Presidential debates he famously said Russia was our biggest threat abroad and was mocked for it. It now seems he hit the nail on the head.

This tweet succinctly summarizes the bullshit mocking of Romney last election. https://twitter.com/CounterMoonbat/status/809192956552945666

[Caf]

This tweet succinctly summarizes the bullshit mocking of Romney last election. https://twitter.com/CounterMoonbat/status/809192956552945666

I like it. That took a level of foresight that basically nobody had at the time.

[Caf]

Hey man, this type of logic is the EXACT reason why I support one of the centuries worst human rights abuser. You did this to yourself.

Specifically with the admiration of Castro and Putin it goes both ways, but I guess I am quite the elitist.

[GoMuskies]

For those who believe it is impossible for Roe v. Wade to ever be overturned, I'd like to point out a statement made by William Pryor, one of the judges reported to be on Trump's short list for Supreme Court appointment: Pryor once called Roe v. Wade the "worst abomination in the history of constitutional law."

[LA Muskie]

If Trump gets to replace either RBG or Breyer, Roe v Wade is a dead man walking.


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[boozehound]

I never thought I'd see the day where some Republicans are not just sympathetic to Putin and Russia, but also more trusting of them than our own intelligence agencies. Reagan would be losing his shit right now.

Dead on. The problem for Trump supporters, and the GOP in general, is that is tough to admit that the candidate you voted for is such that Vladimir Putin found it fit to intervene in an effort to try to help him get elected. It's much easier to say that the CIA and FBI are wrong and/or biased. Plus, many are already in the habit of denying fact.

The reality is that this should not be a partisan issue, and should instead be cause for concern and outrage on the part of all Americans. We obviously can't / shouldn't / aren't going to go back and re-do the election, and I'm not sure that Russia's intervention made much of a difference, but we should all have Donald Trump and his administration on a VERY short leash.

How the party of Reagan turned into the party of Trump and Putin is beyond me.

[Strange Brew]

Dead on. The problem for Trump supporters, and the GOP in general, is that is tough to admit that the candidate you voted for is such that Vladimir Putin found it fit to intervene in an effort to try to help him get elected. It's much easier to say that the CIA and FBI are wrong and/or biased. Plus, many are already in the habit of denying fact.

The reality is that this should not be a partisan issue, and should instead be cause for concern and outrage on the part of all Americans. We obviously can't / shouldn't / aren't going to go back and re-do the election, and I'm not sure that Russia's intervention made much of a difference, but we should all have Donald Trump and his administration on a VERY short leash.

How the party of Reagan turned into the party of Trump and Putin is beyond me.

How the party of JFK turned into the party of Castro, Chavez and Obama is beyond me...

[boozehound]

How the party of JFK turned into the party of Castro, Chavez and Obama is beyond me...

Thank you for the fantastic illustration of my point.

People have given up their right to think for themselves, and partisanship rules above all else. When faced with essentially the fact that Russia interfered in our we are more concerned with bashing the other side. We pick sides of the political spectrum like we pick sports teams, and support them with the same blind loyalty. I guess at the end of the day picking a side and following blindly is much easier than independent thought...

Again, this is an issue we should ALL be very concerned about. Obama being a pussy with respect to Chavez and (especially) Castro has nothing to do with Russia. The stakes are far higher here, since Russia is just a little more dangerous than Cuba or Venezuela.

[LadyMuskie]

To me a Trump presidency is like when Mufasa dies and Scar takes over. He introduces the hyenas as they slowly come out of the darkness and all the animals are like "whoa wait wtf is this about!?"
The hyenas are excited that's for sure.

I logged in just to rep you for this, but the newly revealed hyenas are denying me the right to do so. Anyway . . . brilliant analogy.

[bobbiemcgee]

Guess we'll see more power grabs and Santa's arrested:


http://www.newsobserver.com/news/politics-government/state-politics/article121374038.html

[Strange Brew]

Thank you for the fantastic illustration of my point.

People have given up their right to think for themselves, and partisanship rules above all else. When faced with essentially the fact that Russia interfered in our we are more concerned with bashing the other side. We pick sides of the political spectrum like we pick sports teams, and support them with the same blind loyalty. I guess at the end of the day picking a side and following blindly is much easier than independent thought...

Again, this is an issue we should ALL be very concerned about. Obama being a pussy with respect to Chavez and (especially) Castro has nothing to do with Russia. The stakes are far higher here, since Russia is just a little more dangerous than Cuba or Venezuela.

So, what do YOU think the stakes are? Vlad's a lot of things but he's not suicidal. Remember it wasn't that long ago that a certain Sec of State signed off on selling his country a large quantity of uranium and a Pres assured Vlad via proxy that he'd have more leeway in his second term. The hysterics about Russia by this Pres, the press and many who hate Trump are borderline certifiable.

But alas I guess some live in the history of right now..

[boozehound]

So, what do YOU think the stakes are? Vlad's a lot of things but he's not suicidal. Remember it wasn't that long ago that a certain Sec of State signed off on selling his country a large quantity of uranium and a Pres assured Vlad via proxy that he'd have more leeway in his second term. The hysterics about Russia by this Pres, the press and many who hate Trump are borderline certifiable.

But alas I guess some live in the history of right now..

You are on fire! Responding to my assertion that this should not be a partisan issue with the equivalent of "Yeah well Obama did XXX". The Obama administration was too soft on Russia. Almost all Republicans agree with that sentiment. Or at least they did...

As far as the stakes: I consider intervention in our electoral process by a hostile foreign government to be a pretty big fucking deal, regardless of how effective it may or may not have been. Are you seriously suggesting that we should have no response? Where does that move the line to as far as what is and isn't considered appropriate? Shit, 2 months ago when everybody thought that Trump was going to lose all his supporters talked about was how the election was rigged and how terrible that was. Now we have found out that Russia was actively trying to rig the election and it's just water under the bridge? I happen to believe that fair elections are one of the key principles of our Democracy, and I don't want foreign entities influencing them.

If you want to reject the FBI, CIA, and Director of National intelligence because they are telling a story that doesn't fit the narrative being peddled by our reality TV star turned President, then I guess I don't really have anything more to say to you on that subject, because it seems clear that you won't find this an issue until it hurts your 'team'.

If this was the last election and Putin had been found to be helping Obama getting elected I would wager that your (and many other people's) reaction would be quite different. Funny how many of the same people who spent 8 years accusing Obama of being too soft on Russia are fine with a President who is willing to allow Vladimir Putin to attempt to play 'kingmaker' with the highest office in the land while he gives him the verbal equivalent of a Swedish Massage.

[Masterofreality]

One statement.

If you didn't like someone hacking into your supposedly private emails, maybe you (Dems and the allegedly security conscious Administration) should have been better equipped to block their intrusions? Yeah, let's just be careless and let the mouse have the run of the house, futch things up, then bitch when we see the damage, huh. Maybe by seeing this happen, the authorities can learn better techniques to fight this off in the future? I blame Snowden.

All that being said, Hilary didn't lose because of the Russians. She should have listened to her husband many years ago. "It's the Economy Stupid" .
The Dems ran a crap campaign against a flawed candidate and lost. Stop looking under rocks for "fake news" reasons. Obama's agenda was repudiated in multiple ways. The Dems should just shut up and get to work.

[boozehound]

One statement.

If you didn't like someone hacking into your supposedly private emails, maybe you (Dems and the allegedly security conscious Administration) should have been better equipped to block their intrusions? Yeah, let's just be careless and let the mouse have the run of the house, futch things up, then bitch when we see the damage, huh. Maybe by seeing this happen, the authorities can learn better techniques to fight this off in the future? I blame Snowden.

Yes. Fair point, and one that I hope we address. Our vulnerability to cyber attacks in general is a cause for major concern.


All that being said, Hilary didn't lose because of the Russians. She should have listened to her husband many years ago. "It's the Economy Stupid" .
The Dems ran a crap campaign against a flawed candidate and lost. Stop looking under rocks for "fake news" reasons. Obama's agenda was repudiated in multiple ways. The Dems should just shut up and get to work.

I agree with the first part. I'm not sure about the second part. Are you saying that the CIA, FBI, and Director of National Intelligence statements are "fake news"? If so, that is a dire situation for one of two reasons: either (1) The FBI, CIA, and Director of National Intelligence are spreading fake news, or (2) people are willing to reject a unified statement from the three aforementioned departments because Russia's intervention went the way of their preferred candidate.

If we have that little trust in the combined FBI, CIA, and National Intelligence departments we are big, big trouble.

[Strange Brew]

You are on fire! Responding to my assertion that this should not be a partisan issue with the equivalent of "Yeah well Obama did XXX". The Obama administration was too soft on Russia. Almost all Republicans agree with that sentiment. Or at least they did...

As far as the stakes: I consider intervention in our electoral process by a hostile foreign government to be a pretty big fucking deal, regardless of how effective it may or may not have been. Are you seriously suggesting that we should have no response? Where does that move the line to as far as what is and isn't considered appropriate? Shit, 2 months ago when everybody thought that Trump was going to lose all his supporters talked about was how the election was rigged and how terrible that was. Now we have found out that Russia was actively trying to rig the election and it's just water under the bridge? I happen to believe that fair elections are one of the key principles of our Democracy, and I don't want foreign entities influencing them.

If you want to reject the FBI, CIA, and Director of National intelligence because they are telling a story that doesn't fit the narrative being peddled by our reality TV star turned President, then I guess I don't really have anything more to say to you on that subject, because it seems clear that you won't find this an issue until it hurts your 'team'.

If this was the last election and Putin had been found to be helping Obama getting elected I would wager that your (and many other people's) reaction would be quite different. Funny how many of the same people who spent 8 years accusing Obama of being too soft on Russia are fine with a President who is willing to allow Vladimir Putin to attempt to play 'kingmaker' with the highest office in the land while he gives him the verbal equivalent of a Swedish Massage.

Sure, I'd like the CIA to appear before Congress and brief the body on what they found so we know to what extent the Russians may have affected the election (curiously CIA did not show up this week). I'd also like investigations into Soros' and the Muslim Brotherhood's involvement in the US government and the election while we're at it.

Sure, if the Russians hacked the DNC (Assange has repeatedly said it was an inside job) than let's take a look b/c it is embarrassing to the Intel community and ultimately this Pres that Russians were able to hack his party and potentially, maybe influence the election. If you're strategically minded like the Russians any hack would not necessarily have been done to elect Trump (no one thought this was possible until Nov 8th) but rather to embarrass Obama and the Dems one more time while weakening the presumptive next Pres (HRC) and her Intel team.

[boozehound]

Sure, I'd like the CIA to appear before Congress and brief the body on what they found so we know to what extent the Russians may have affected the election (curiously CIA did not show up this week). I'd also like investigations into Soros' and the Muslim Brotherhood's involvement in the US government and the election while we're at it.

Sure, if the Russians hacked the DNC (Assange has repeatedly said it was an inside job) than let's take a look b/c it is embarrassing to the Intel community and ultimately this Pres that Russians were able to hack his party and potentially, maybe influence the election. If you're strategically minded like the Russians any hack would not necessarily have been done to elect Trump (no one thought this was possible until Nov 8th) but rather to embarrass Obama and the Dems one more time while weakening the presumptive next Pres (HRC) and her Intel team.

That's fine. Once we confirm (accept) it was the Russians we can determine our appropriate response, and determine how to keep this from happening again.

When we get finished with that we can start investigating Soros, the Muslim Brotherhood, and that underground sex Pizzeria that I heard Hillary Clinton was running with John Podesta and Barack Obama. I'm sure Michael Flynn and the tinfoil hat brigade will be up to the task.

[Caf]

I don't think Trump won the election because of Russia. People on both sides want to make this about the election when it's so much bigger than that. This is just the tip of the iceberg of Russia meddling in world affairs to harm the U.S.

[Strange Brew]

That's fine. Once we confirm (accept) it was the Russians we can determine our appropriate response, and determine how to keep this from happening again.

When we get finished with that we can start investigating Soros, the Muslim Brotherhood, and that underground sex Pizzeria that I heard Hillary Clinton was running with John Podesta and Barack Obama. I'm sure Michael Flynn and the tinfoil hat brigade will be up to the task.

Yeah, not concerned about Pizzagate. The other concerns are legit.

Nice that the current Pres is threatening Russia with retaliation before we've investigated the issue. That's brilliant geopolitical strategery.

[Strange Brew]

I don't think Trump won the election because of Russia. People on both sides want to make this about the election when it's so much bigger than that. This is just the tip of the iceberg of Russia meddling in world affairs to harm the U.S.

I agree. We are very weak as a country right now.

[boozehound]

Yeah, not concerned about Pizzagate. The other concerns are legit.

Nice that the current Pres is threatening Russia with retaliation before we've investigated the issue. That's brilliant geopolitical strategery.

The only reason you think the other two are legit is because you read too much Breitbart and the Blaze. I can't find a single article from any reputable news source about either Soros or The Muslim Brotherhood being involved in the election, or the Obama administration. Lots of articles on conspiracy theorist sites though.

Regarding Obama threatening Russia before we have investigated the issue: I kind of thought that we had already investigated it and the FBI, CIA, and Director of National security all agreed that the Russians were behind the meddling? Seems like enough grounds to threaten retaliation. If that is now 'a fringe too far' in our interactions with Russia I'm very concerned to see what a bunch of pussies we are going to be with respect to Putin for the next for years.

[paulxu]

Are you guys telling me Obama really was born in the US?

[Strange Brew]

The only reason you think the other two are legit is because you read too much Breitbart and the Blaze. I can't find a single article from any reputable news source about either Soros or The Muslim Brotherhood being involved in the election, or the Obama administration. Lots of articles on conspiracy theorist sites though.

Regarding Obama threatening Russia before we have investigated the issue: I kind of thought that we had already investigated it and the FBI, CIA, and Director of National security all agreed that the Russians were behind the meddling? Seems like enough grounds to threaten retaliation. If that is now 'a fringe too far' in our interactions with Russia I'm very concerned to see what a bunch of pussies we are going to be with respect to Putin for the next for years.

Here's an article from The Hill regarding HRC and Priorities USA.
http://http://thehill.com/blogs/ballot-box/fundraising/300276-wikileaks-hack-reveals-cozy-relationship-between-clinton

More from The Hill on HRC's right hand woman and the MB
http://https://www.google.com/amp/thehill.com/blogs/pundits-blog/presidential-campaign/292310-huma-abedins-ties-to-the-muslim-brotherhood%3Famp?client=safari

So Soros is not funding BLM and the DNC? And MB has no relation to the current gov't? Oh, ok.

What extent did the Russians meddle? Podesta (not a govt official)? If that's the case I'm not sure it's a good idea to threaten a nuclear enabled foreign power. Hey, but you're someone who thinks for himself so what do I know.

As to the next four years? We'll see. Doubtful we'll be weaker than the last 8.

[Strange Brew]

Are you guys telling me Obama really was born in the US?

Sure, how'd Trumps trial go yesterday...

[paulxu]

I don't know. Obama never bragged about being born outside the United States.

[Strange Brew]

I don't know. Obama never bragged about being born outside the United States.

Except in one of his bios....

Don't know where you're going with this anyway. Never was a fan of the Clinton campaign birther issue against Obama and McCaiin.

[bobbiemcgee]

If you didn't like someone hacking into your supposedly private emails, maybe you (Dems and the allegedly security conscious Administration) should have been better equipped to block their intrusions?

Let's face it. Hackers can hack anybody at anytime. Yahoo, Target, Banks, NSA, DNC. RNC sez they can't be hacked. Bullshit.

[Caf]

I agree. We are very weak as a country right now.

What do you think of Trump's position on the Iran nuclear deal and his openness to relations with Russia? I find it very interesting that many who are open to better Russian relations are generally so anti-Iran and the nuclear deal. Unless the idea is to concede influence in the Middle East to Russia in favor of isolationism, I don't see how some reconcile these stances.

[Strange Brew]

What do you think of Trump's position on the Iran nuclear deal and his openness to relations with Russia? I find it very interesting that many who are open to better Russian relations are generally so anti-Iran and the nuclear deal. Unless the idea is to concede influence in the Middle East to Russia in favor of isolationism, I don't see how some reconcile these stances.

Give Putin the port in Crimea (he took it anyway) and do not add Eastern Bloc countries to NATO and in exchange the Russians remove their support of the Iranian regime. Also, we're putting missiles back in Eastern Europe.

[bjf123]

The CIA is saying Russia was behind this, in spite of Julien Assange and a former British Ambassador saying it was an inside job. Is this the same CIA that said with a high degree of confidence that Saddam Hussein had WMDs. How'd that play out?


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[Caf]

Give Putin the port in Crimea (he took it anyway) and do not add Eastern Bloc countries to NATO and in exchange the Russians remove their support of the Iranian regime. Also, we're putting middles back in Eastern Europe.

I honestly don't believe Russia is looking for any sort of resolution. It seems they're pretty intent on pushing as many boundaries as possible. That's not to say they are looking to be enemies indefinitely, but that they want a seat at every table of geopolitics, to be U.S. adversaries at the very least. Their approach in Syria has been indefensible. I'd say they'd force us into action there, but if it hasn't happened yet, I'm not sure it ever will.

[Strange Brew]

I honestly don't believe Russia is looking for any sort of resolution. It seems they're pretty intent on pushing as many boundaries as possible. That's not to say they are looking to be enemies indefinitely, but that they want a seat at every table of geopolitics, to be U.S. adversaries at the very least. Their approach in Syria has been indefensible. I'd say they'd force us into action there, but if it hasn't happened yet, I'm not sure it ever will.

I don't necessarily disagree. However, I believe they have a seat at the table but we don't want to acknowledge it. Which is why I think Trump has said he respects Putin. There's no reason to poke the bear before you have the reigns of power to negotiate/work with him.

I'd stay away from Syria until we have an Intel community that can agree on who the enemy is there.

[Tu 4 MVP]

The CIA is saying Russia was behind this, in spite of Julien Assange and a former British Ambassador saying it was an inside job. Is this the same CIA that said with a high degree of confidence that Saddam Hussein had WMDs. How'd that play out?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I keep seeing this and its one aspect of the Iraq war that seems to be misunderstood. The Bush Administration basically cherry-picked intel and strung together conclusions that were not there. They only considered evidence that fit their narrative. The most egregious was the claim that Iraq supported terrorists, when the CIA were adamant that the regime did not. The whole narrative that the CIA was the cause for the Iraq war is very misleading.

[Masterofreality]

Let's face it. Hackers can hack anybody at anytime. Yahoo, Target, Banks, NSA, DNC. RNC sez they can't be hacked. Bullshit.
Well, the ease with which the Dems were supposedly hacked sure gives me all kind of comfort that Hilary's home baked email server, on which classified documents were proven to be shared, was totally secure!

Well done, former Ms. Presidential Candidate and Secretary of State!!

[Caf]

Well, the ease with which the Dems were supposedly hacked sure gives me all kind of comfort that Hilary's home baked email server, on which classified documents were proven to be shared, was totally secure!

Well done, former Ms. Presidential Candidate and Secretary of State!!

Report: Russia hacked emails associated with RNC (http://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/309915-report-russia-hacked-emails-associated-with-rnc)

There's conflicting info on a possible RNC hack, but give me a break. This crap could happen to literally anyone. This is a non-issue in every way.

[SemajParlor]

Well, the ease with which the Dems were supposedly hacked sure gives me all kind of comfort that Hilary's home baked email server, on which classified documents were proven to be shared, was totally secure!

Well done, former Ms. Presidential Candidate and Secretary of State!!

People out of touch with technology / hacking are the best.

[Masterofreality]

Report: Russia hacked emails associated with RNC (http://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/309915-report-russia-hacked-emails-associated-with-rnc)

There's conflicting info on a possible RNC hack, but give me a break. This crap could happen to literally anyone. This is a non-issue in every way.

Dude, you missed the point. This hacking is EXACTLY why Hilary's email issue was, in fact, a huge deal, despite the Progressives trying to downplay it through the campaign.

"People out of touch with technology, hacking", REALITY is the best.

[Caf]

Dude, you missed the point. This hacking is EXACTLY why Hilary's email issue was, in fact, a huge deal, despite the Progressives trying to downplay it through the campaign.

"People out of touch with technology, hacking", REALITY is the best.

They got Podesta's email password from phishing. Preventing these types of hacks has nothing to do with network or server security.

[Masterofreality]

They got Podesta's email password from phishing. Preventing these types of hacks has nothing to do with network or server security.

Uh, yeah they do. What about Wasserman-Schultz and Abedin? The hackers got stuff from them too.
Face it. Hilary was a disingenuous candidate who played fast and loose with important National Security information as Secretary of State for whatever motives- personal profit or otherwise. No way she deserved to be President.....and I didn't vote for Trump either.

[Caf]

Uh, yeah they do. What about Wasserman-Schultz and Abedin? The hackers got stuff from them too.
Face it. Hilary was a disingenuous candidate who played fast and loose with important National Security information as Secretary of State for whatever motives- personal profit or otherwise. No way she deserved to be President.....and I didn't vote for Trump either.

Although your "uh, yeah they do" argument is airtight, it's still wrong. Yes, the DNC was hacked. Although they're related politically, a hack of the DNC has nothing to do with Hilary's servers. I don't disagree that Clinton was "disingenuous", etc., but her servers have nothing to do with this hack.

Podesta’s email hack hinged on a very unfortunate typo (http://www.theverge.com/2016/12/13/13940514/dnc-email-hack-typo-john-podesta-clinton-russia)

[Masterofreality]

Although your "uh, yeah they do" argument is airtight, it's still wrong. Yes, the DNC was hacked. Although they're related politically, a hack of the DNC has nothing to do with Hilary's servers. I don't disagree that Clinton was "disingenuous", etc., but her servers have nothing to do with this hack.

Podesta’s email hack hinged on a very unfortunate typo (http://www.theverge.com/2016/12/13/13940514/dnc-email-hack-typo-john-podesta-clinton-russia)

I realize that sir, but it is a short stroke to the high possibility that a home baked email server powered by rats on a treadmill might be vulnerable to classified info being compromised. The stupidity of the Former Secretary of State is incredible.

[Caf]

I realize that sir, but it is a short stroke to the high possibility that a home baked email server powered by rats on a treadmill might be vulnerable to classified info being compromised. The stupidity of the Former Secretary of State is incredible.

So the hacks happening in 2016 (to targets other than HRC) are an indication that HRC's servers were highly vulnerable from 2009-13? As nothing happened (see FBI investigation), I'm not sure I see the connection you're trying to make. Home servers were dumb, but these hacks don't make that more true than any other hack. Yahoo, ashley madison, target, etc.

As I said, anyone can be hacked anytime. It's funny to see people being more concerned with the cybersecurity of liberal's rather than the intentions/aggressions of Russians. It can happen to anyone and will inevitably happen to politicians on each side of the aisle.

[GoMuskies]

People be fucking nuts. Glad the electoral college thing will be behind us after today. If the morons pushing that had been successful, the country would have descended into chaos with a quickness.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/powerpost/paloma/daily-202/2016/12/19/daily-202-liberal-hypocrisy-abounds-as-electoral-college-votes/58575242e9b69b36fcfeaf46/?utm_term=.0650ce44e665

[Caf]

People be fucking nuts. Glad the electoral college thing will be behind us after today. If the morons pushing that had been successful, the country would have descended into chaos with a quickness.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/powerpost/paloma/daily-202/2016/12/19/daily-202-liberal-hypocrisy-abounds-as-electoral-college-votes/58575242e9b69b36fcfeaf46/?utm_term=.0650ce44e665

Absolutely the worst hypocrites out there. I was glad to see the Clinton campaign take no part in this.

Democrats point fingers as Trump Electoral College win nears -Politico (http://www.politico.com/story/2016/12/trump-electoral-college-win-democrats-infighting-232814)


Anti-Trump electors say Clinton camp silence doomed plan to block Donald Trump.

[GoMuskies]

Turkey just killed the Russian ambassador. That's not good.

[boozehound]

Here's an article from The Hill regarding HRC and Priorities USA.
http://http://thehill.com/blogs/ballot-box/fundraising/300276-wikileaks-hack-reveals-cozy-relationship-between-clinton

More from The Hill on HRC's right hand woman and the MB
http://https://www.google.com/amp/thehill.com/blogs/pundits-blog/presidential-campaign/292310-huma-abedins-ties-to-the-muslim-brotherhood%3Famp?client=safari

So Soros is not funding BLM and the DNC? And MB has no relation to the current gov't? Oh, ok.

What extent did the Russians meddle? Podesta (not a govt official)? If that's the case I'm not sure it's a good idea to threaten a nuclear enabled foreign power. Hey, but you're someone who thinks for himself so what do I know.

As to the next four years? We'll see. Doubtful we'll be weaker than the last 8.

I can't get the links to work.

Help me understand your stance that it's "not a good idea to threaten a nuclear enabled foreign power". That happens all the time. It seems like threats and sanctions are about the only thing that Russia has ever really responded to over the past few decades. I think it's interesting how fast many have pivoted from a 'tough on Russia' stance to a much softer approach. At least Congress seems to be holding the line so far, but we will see how much they are willing to go to battle with Trump over it.

If we are going to be concerned about provoking foreign governments I would tend to be more concerned with provoking China, since they are many times more powerful than Russia, and are also a key trading partner. Trump has been fine with doing that, even without the benefit of (1) actually being sworn in as President, and (2) detailed intelligence briefings.

I really have a hard time understanding the juxtaposition of Trump's stance on Russia with his stance on China. I will agree that we have significant areas of opportunity in our relationship with China, but I would prefer that we deal with them in a more deliberate, measured, way. Russia, on the other hand, is a long-time international bully with limited ability to have a negative economic impact on the US. They are also aggressively disrespectful to the US and NATO on a level that China is not.

[fellahmuskie]

I can't get the links to work.

Help me understand your stance that it's "not a good idea to threaten a nuclear enabled foreign power". That happens all the time. It seems like threats and sanctions are about the only thing that Russia has ever really responded to over the past few decades. I think it's interesting how fast many have pivoted from a 'tough on Russia' stance to a much softer approach. At least Congress seems to be holding the line so far, but we will see how much they are willing to go to battle with Trump over it.

If we are going to be concerned about provoking foreign governments I would tend to be more concerned with provoking China, since they are many times more powerful than Russia, and are also a key trading partner. Trump has been fine with doing that, even without the benefit of (1) actually being sworn in as President, and (2) detailed intelligence briefings.

I really have a hard time understanding the juxtaposition of Trump's stance on Russia with his stance on China. I will agree that we have significant areas of opportunity in our relationship with China, but I would prefer that we deal with them in a more deliberate, measured, way. Russia, on the other hand, is a long-time international bully with limited ability to have a negative economic impact on the US. They are also aggressively disrespectful to the US and NATO on a level that China is not.

I know nothing about China, but Trump is buddy buddy with the Russian kleptocracy. Those are his people, for lack of a better word.

I really don't think he's taking a geopolitical stance when it comes to Russia. He simply likes them better. He's comfortable dealing with Russians, so why would that change when he becomes president?

I'm headed to Moscow for a few weeks over New Year's. It's going to be very interesting to talk to people and read/watch the Russian media. After 13 years of hating Bush (post-Iraq War) and Obama, they finally have somebody they like in the White House :)

[fellahmuskie]

Turkey just killed the Russian ambassador. That's not good.

To clarify, a Turkish terrorist who probably hates his own government. I'd expect this to bring Russia and Turkey closer, not push them apart.

[GoMuskies]

To clarify, a Turkish terrorist who probably hates his own government.

We'll see.

[Caf]

To clarify, a Turkish terrorist who probably hates his own government. I'd expect this to bring Russia and Turkey closer, not push them apart.

We'll see.

From WSJ tweet, "“Don’t forget Aleppo" — Gunman who assassinated Russian ambassador in Ankara identified as Turkish police officer"

[GoMuskies]

Yeah, given where he was located, he was probably part of the official security detail. What a picture.

https://static01.nyt.com/images/2016/12/20/world/20TURKEY-WEB4/20TURKEY-WEB4-superJumbo-v3.jpg

[Caf]

That makes sense. I'm sure a lot more will come out of this.

[SemajParlor]

I'd expect this to bring Russia and Turkey closer, not push them apart.

I don't anticipate this happening. These 2 countries have more or less been at war with each for the last couple of years.

Interesting time to point out that Turkey is a member of NATO.

[Caf]

I don't anticipate this happening. These 2 countries have more or less been at war with each for the last couple of years.

Interesting time to point out that Turkey is a member of NATO.

I think this is a genuine coin flip. Putin was a supporter of Erdogan after the coup.

[GoMuskies]

Texas electors are about to make it official. http://www.politico.com/live-stream/electoral-college-casts-votes

[fellahmuskie]

I don't anticipate this happening. These 2 countries have more or less been at war with each for the last couple of years.

Interesting time to point out that Turkey is a member of NATO.

From what I'm reading, Erdogan and Putin have already talked and agreed to increase security measures in both countries. Quoting Russian state media: Putin said it was a "cowardly murder" and provocation, aimed at damaging friendly relations with Turkey and destabilizing the situation in Syria.

Russia and Turkey have been extremely friendly since August and I doubt this will slow their momentum. I'm not saying things couldn't sour again (like they did after a Russian plane was shot down in Turkey last November), but both countries really need each other for tourism and trade. Their economies are closely linked and Russia's trying to build an oil pipeline through Turkey to Europe (bypassing Ukraine).

[SemajParlor]

You guys might be right. I have a pretty general yet limited knowledge of current relations between the two.

[Caf]

China hits Trump's comments on naval drone: We don’t like the word ‘steal' - The Hill (http://thehill.com/policy/international/311003-china-hits-trumps-comments-on-naval-drone-we-dont-like-the-word-steal)

God almighty I hate the way he uses twitter.

[GenerationX]

New to the game don't know how to rep but that's pretty funny

Ha! I guess you only know how to rep in the negative?

[bobbiemcgee]

God almighty I hate the way he uses twitter.

Moron keeps tweeting he won in a "landslide'. Yeah, just like Harry Truman:
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2016/12/18/us/elections/donald-trump-electoral-college-popular-vote.html?action=click&module=TrendingGrid&region=TrendingTop&pgtype=collection&_r=0

[Strange Brew]

Moron keeps tweeting he won in a "landslide'. Yeah, just like Harry Truman:
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2016/12/18/us/elections/donald-trump-electoral-college-popular-vote.html?action=click&module=TrendingGrid®ion=TrendingTop&pgtype=collection&_r=0

After looking at the numbers I'm in full support of "Caliexit".

[LA Muskie]

After looking at the numbers I'm in full support of "Caliexit".

I'm game.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Strange Brew]

I'm game.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Great to hear! Lake Mead could use a refill.

[GenerationX]

Nice linking of two liberal rags with no credibility before or after the election...
Can you bring something credible? Or allow me to provide you with a little fact: Liberal Racist Hillary Clinton looked up to Liberal Racist Robert KKK Byrd as a mentor and icon confirmed BY ALL OUTLETS but oft overlooked by the rags like NPR and the Washington post.
Now you know why 70% of Americans have no trust in media.

"In 2010, even the NAACP released a statement honoring Senator Byrd and mourning his passing:"
http://www.snopes.com/clinton-byrd-photo-klan/

[SemajParlor]

Snopes > NPR in my opinion.

[SemajParlor]

Can someone put in layman's terms how you can morally justify supporting the First Amendment Defense Act? Genuinely curious what the argument is.

[bobbiemcgee]

After looking at the numbers I'm in full support of "Caliexit".

Their economy is the eighth largest in the world, much larger than russia's, so guess they could bounce them out of the G8.

[Caf]

Their economy is the eighth largest in the world, much larger than russia's, so guess they could bounce them out of the G8.

Well he wasn't talking about THOSE numbers. Just the ones that don't matter.

[ArizonaXUGrad]

What was this in response to? I don't always click on this thread when I come here and miss several posts. Sorry, I read the act and it's indefensible. If you swap LGBTQ with African American, you see how sickening it is.


Can someone put in layman's terms how you can morally justify supporting the First Amendment Defense Act? Genuinely curious what the argument is.

[GoMuskies]

I'm FOR it, with one caveat. Anyone who takes advantage of the FADA must post public, conspicuous signage informing everyone of their intent to discriminate.

I would call my amendment to the bill the Scarlet Letter Rider.

[chico]

I'm FOR it, with one caveat. Anyone who takes advantage of the FADA must post public, conspicuous signage informing everyone of their intent to discriminate.

I would call my amendment to the bill the Scarlet Letter Rider.

That's the best idea I've read on this board in at least five years, if not longer. Genius.

[ArizonaXUGrad]

You just stole my idea from a couple months ago Go...not fair.


I'm FOR it, with one caveat. Anyone who takes advantage of the FADA must post public, conspicuous signage informing everyone of their intent to discriminate.

I would call my amendment to the bill the Scarlet Letter Rider.

[SemajParlor]

What was this in response to? I don't always click on this thread when I come here and miss several posts. Sorry, I read the act and it's indefensible. If you swap LGBTQ with African American, you see how sickening it is.

This is the problem that I was alluding to in another thread. The characteristics associated with being socially liberal or progressive has received such backlash and written off as soft and whiny that any legitimate concern is rolled in with the Lena Dunham moronic ones.

How anyone can have the mindset that this bill is in any way ok is mind bogging. What the f*** are we doing here?

[GoMuskies]

You just stole my idea from a couple months ago Go...not fair.

I don't recall that being the case, but if this was your idea and not mine, kudos.

[ArizonaXUGrad]

Lol, I said we should have a 'Straight Only' sign just like 'whites only' signs 60 years ago.


I don't recall that being the case, but if this was your idea and not mine, kudos.

[Caf]

This is the problem that I was alluding to in another thread. The characteristics associated with being socially liberal or progressive has received such backlash and written off as soft and whiny that any legitimate concern is rolled in with the Lena Dunham moronic ones.

How anyone can have the mindset that this bill is in any way ok is mind bogging. What the f*** are we doing here?

I agree the act is a disaster and a threat to freedom in this country. I also agree with your 'Lena Dunham' point, but this one goes both ways. There's been a big and successful backlash against social conservative ideas for probably 8 years. Instead of being labeled as soft, they were labeled as racist, sexist, etc. While some undoubtedly were, many weren't. It seems like we're in a cycle of shouting passed each other and then whatever party is in power just does what they want without consideration of the other.

[SemajParlor]

^ Agree 100 percent. I'm not sure if this bill specifically should be used as an example of this though. Can't be tolerated.

[Caf]

^ Agree 100 percent. I'm not sure if this bill specifically should be used as an example of this though. Can't be tolerated.

Agreed. I didn't know much about it, and just read this (http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2015/jul/28/occupy-democrats/house-republicans-attacked-passing-bill-makes-it-l/). Pretty good explainer of a few of the issues with it.

[Strange Brew]

Their economy is the eighth largest in the world, much larger than russia's, so guess they could bounce them out of the G8.

Sure, no problem with them replacing Russia. I'm interested to see how CA would do on its own. It would need create its own currency which may downgrade the economic prowess you're referencing. It would have to develop its own military and finally, figure out its water issues without the Rockies' western slopes. Its situation is very different than other states that have considered secession like TX and AK.

That, and it would ensure a 'Pub' Pres for many years...

[Juice]

Sure, no problem with them replacing Russia. I'm interested to see how CA would do on its own. It would need create its own currency which may downgrade the economic prowess you're referencing. It would have to develop its own military and finally, figure out its water issues without the Rockies' western slopes. Its situation is very different than other states that have considered secession like TX and AK.

That, and it would ensure a 'Pub' Pres for many years...

Let's see if they can prop themselves up without federal money. Right now they have a high state tax rate, and I'm sure their new national tax rate would be insanely high compared the US. People would get the hell out bc they wouldn't want to pay it or they couldn't afford it.

[Caf]

Let's see if they can prop themselves up without federal money. Right now they have a high state tax rate, and I'm sure their new national tax rate would be insanely high compared the US. People would get the hell out bc they wouldn't want to pay it or they couldn't afford it.

Which States Rely the Most on Federal Aid? (http://taxfoundation.org/blog/which-states-rely-most-federal-aid-0)

This is a ridiculous discussion. We need all of our states.

[ChicagoX]

Apparently ethics in government are no longer needed: With No Warning, House Republicans Vote to Gut Independent Ethics Office (http://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/02/us/politics/with-no-warning-house-republicans-vote-to-hobble-independent-ethics-office.html?_r=0)

[Caf]

Apparently ethics in government are no longer needed: With No Warning, House Republicans Vote to Gut Independent Ethics Office (http://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/02/us/politics/with-no-warning-house-republicans-vote-to-hobble-independent-ethics-office.html?_r=0)

Trump Rebukes House Republicans Over Bid to Gut Ethics Office (http://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/03/us/politics/trump-house-ethics-office.html?_r=0)

[drudy23]

Looks like Ford is canceling their Mexico plant and investing in Michigan. Not a deal brokered by Trump, but certainly a result of his campaign.

Hopefully it becomes a trend, and US companies are incented to continue it.

[Pete Delkus]

Obabmacare is a popular topic today. Just remember, a massive portion of the subsidized ACA plans are paid for by middle-America employee who participate in their employers private insurance.

Taxes & gotcha fees, instituted by the IRS on employers, are shared with employees, who see in the increase in their premiums, and reduction of benefits. Medical Device companies, Rx & hospitals also have been taxed and this is realized also, by middle America, in increased healthcare costs.

Just remember...

[boozehound]

Obabmacare is a popular topic today. Just remember, a massive portion of the subsidized ACA plans are paid for by middle-America employee who participate in their employers private insurance.

Taxes & gotcha fees, instituted by the IRS on employers, are shared with employees, who see in the increase in their premiums, and reduction of benefits. Medical Device companies, Rx & hospitals also have been taxed and this is realized also, by middle America, in increased healthcare costs.

Just remember...

I'm interested to see how this plays out. Last year my premiums literally doubled. I work for a large company that provides very good benefits. The reason they gave (which I don't know I entirely believed) was that the reason for the increase in premiums was not due to a reduction in the amount of the total premium that my employer was paying, but rather as result of costs and penalties associated with the ACA. The amount of the increase wasn't financially significant to me (a little under $300 per month if I recall) but it would be for many people. If it gets repealed, I wonder if I will see a significant decrease in my premium.

I'm interested to see if they can move forward from the ACA in a manner that is both practical, and politically tenable. From what I understand many of the 'good' parts of the ACA that people like, and that Trump says they will keep, are funded by all the penalties, taxes, and nuisance fees. Seems like it's anybody's guess as to when they will repeal and what they will actually replace it with.

[Caf]

Kasich warns Republicans on ObamaCare repeall (http://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/312878-kasich-warns-republicans-on-obamacare-repeal)

[Lloyd Braun]

Most employer-provided premiums are increasing at a steady rate (5%). Benefits have decreased some to offset this (higher deductible for example). It's the marketplace premiums that are increasing by somewhere in the 20% range. It is typically (though not always) higher in states that have declined Medicaid expansion. Ohio's marketplace rates for example are only projected to rise 2%. So who pays for it? Everyone through income tax? Or middle class through premium hikes?

The cost of healthcare has been rising for a very long time. What's wrong with a single payer system? Are we concerned that quality will decrease? Most people on Medicare are pretty satisfied. I know it's more complicated than that but there isn't an easy answer.

[Frambo]

my monthly premium went from $309 to 380 this year. Thats around a 23% increase from the Ohio State Teachers Retirement System. It was $127 a few years ago.


Most employer-provided premiums are increasing at a steady rate (5%). Benefits have decreased some to offset this (higher deductible for example). It's the marketplace premiums that are increasing by somewhere in the 20% range. It is typically (though not always) higher in states that have declined Medicaid expansion. Ohio's marketplace rates for example are only projected to rise 2%. So who pays for it? Everyone through income tax? Or middle class through premium hikes?

The cost of healthcare has been rising for a very long time. What's wrong with a single payer system? Are we concerned that quality will decrease? Most people on Medicare are pretty satisfied. I know it's more complicated than that but there isn't an easy answer.

[Juice]

David Pepper tweeting lies because it doesn't fit the Democrat narrative of them being the party of women https://twitter.com/davidpepper/status/817109000386973696

Too bad Republicans already had a female commissioner in the late 80s/early 90s. Very progressive for a party that hates women.

[Porkopolis]

If it gets repealed, I wonder if I will see a significant decrease in my premium.

I seriously doubt it. Insurance companies have zero incentive to lower premiums unless customers drop their plans in droves, which they won't.

[Lloyd Braun]

my monthly premium went from $309 to 380 this year. Thats around a 23% increase from the Ohio State Teachers Retirement System. It was $127 a few years ago.

Single or family? Also you do realize there are outliers?

[Frambo]

single....way too expensive to include wife on this plan. I know there are other plans, but STRS pays a big portion of mine.


Single or family? Also you do realize there are outliers?

[Lloyd Braun]

single....way too expensive to include wife on this plan. I know there are other plans, but STRS pays a big portion of mine.

Your portion of the premium is up 23%, but I wonder what the entire cost increase of the premium is. STRS and other traditionally great plans (unions etc) are forcing the employee to cover more of the cost. These were traditionally great benefits, and many of the employers have lost their ability to bargain for great rates.

I feel like $380/month for a single is high though. I hope your deductible didn't increase much too because that would be highway robbery.

[GoMuskies]

Donald Trump will be our president at the end of the week. I guess I hadn't considered until today that this week would start with MLK Day...and end with Donald Trump as our president.

"I have a nightmare..."

I think we'll survive, though.

[boozehound]

This is going to be one interesting shit show. It's becoming increasingly clear that the Republican establishment can't control Trump at all. They don't seem to have any idea what he will say/do, and it often contradicts their agenda. They hoped that Priebus and Pence would be able to keep him somewhat in line with core conservative values, but it's not looking good so far.

Russia - Republicans have spent 8 years being critical of Obama's policy toward Russia as being overly soft. Trump loves Russia. So much.

Economy - Republicans have traditionally been the fiscally conservative party and would generally oppose the kinds of massive infrastructure projects that Trump seems to be vocally promising / pushing for. Both Trump and the GOP establishment like tax cuts though, so we can count on some of those.

Healthcare - The most recent doozy. Trump seems to be pushing for a Healthcare system that is far more inclusive / costly than the ACA. He claims he has it 'almost ready' (which I don't believe for a second). Repealing and replacing the ACA is already politically difficult, the last thing that they need is Trump making promises that they cannot even come close to keeping.

It's an interesting choice for Congressional Republicans: (1) Contradict Trump, (their president) and risk the fallout from his populist pandering or (2) completely flip-flop and abandon some of their core values. So far many, including his cabinet nominees, have been choosing to act like they don't hear the more ridiculous things he has been saying. I don't think that's going to work long term though.

My prediction: the GOP gets their tax cuts, Trump gets his spending, deficit goes up. That's a very easy can to kick down the road. Deficit spending is always politically popular because people are getting something now and paying for it later. We love that in America.

[Caf]

This is going to be one interesting shit show. It's becoming increasingly clear that the Republican establishment can't control Trump at all. They don't seem to have any idea what he will say/do, and it often contradicts their agenda. They hoped that Priebus and Pence would be able to keep him somewhat in line with core conservative values, but it's not looking good so far.

Russia - Republicans have spent 8 years being critical of Obama's policy toward Russia as being overly soft. Trump loves Russia. So much.

Economy - Republicans have traditionally been the fiscally conservative party and would generally oppose the kinds of massive infrastructure projects that Trump seems to be vocally promising / pushing for. Both Trump and the GOP establishment like tax cuts though, so we can count on some of those.

Healthcare - The most recent doozy. Trump seems to be pushing for a Healthcare system that is far more inclusive / costly than the ACA. He claims he has it 'almost ready' (which I don't believe for a second). Repealing and replacing the ACA is already politically difficult, the last thing that they need is Trump making promises that they cannot even come close to keeping.

It's an interesting choice for Congressional Republicans: (1) Contradict Trump, (their president) and risk the fallout from his populist pandering or (2) completely flip-flop and abandon some of their core values. So far many, including his cabinet nominees, have been choosing to act like they don't hear the more ridiculous things he has been saying. I don't think that's going to work long term though.

My prediction: the GOP gets their tax cuts, Trump gets his spending, deficit goes up. That's a very easy can to kick down the road. Deficit spending is always politically popular because people are getting something now and paying for it later. We love that in America.

I break pretty heavily from Democrats on the Russia issue. Obama's approach toward Russia was overly soft. Sanctions in the face of unlawful annexation is soft, I don't see how one can make the argument that it isn't. There are obviously a lot of sketchy Trump ties to Russia i.e. hacking, dosier, Tillerson's affiliation, to watch carefully, but Obama has literally sat and watched Russia do whatever it wants.

Trump's Team Looks Smarter on Russia - Bloomberg (https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2017-01-12/trump-s-team-looks-smarter-on-russia)

Tillerson's remarks at the hearing are the clearest, most coherent statement of intent in U.S. policy vis-a-vis Russia heard so far this century.

[boozehound]

I break pretty heavily from Democrats on the Russia issue. Obama's approach toward Russia was overly soft. Sanctions in the face of unlawful annexation is soft, I don't see how one can make the argument that it isn't. There are obviously a lot of sketchy Trump ties to Russia i.e. hacking, dosier, Tillerson's affiliation, to watch carefully, but Obama has literally sat and watched Russia do whatever it wants.

Trump's Team Looks Smarter on Russia - Bloomberg (https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2017-01-12/trump-s-team-looks-smarter-on-russia)

I agree. Interesting article. I, like many others, will be interested to see how this shakes out. It seems to be in direct conflict with Trump's rhetoric on Russia.

[Emp]

Looks like Ford is canceling their Mexico plant and investing in Michigan. Not a deal brokered by Trump, but certainly a result of his campaign.

Hopefully it becomes a trend, and US companies are incented to continue it.

My significant other is a veteran auto industry analyst. Big ticket vehicles with bigger profit margins can be manufactured in the US. Trucks and SUVs. Luxury and niche cars. Even pricy electrics.

Not so small cars for the US market and export. Ford can't make a Focus in the US and make a profit at a competitive' affordable sale price, unless they basically finance it for free over 72 months. If Trump manages to "fix" the free market with a tariff on Mexican and South Korean small car imports, the price of getting to work for Joe and Nancy Bag of Donuts goes up.

We're living in an oil price bubble right now, driving down the demand for smaller, fuel efficient and cheaper vehicles. When the demand for oil heats up again and gas goes back to $4+. Trump has no control over that market. If the price dam breaks in the next four years, it will be interesting to see how he dodges the bullet.

[Caf]

I agree. Interesting article. I, like many others, will be interested to see how this shakes out. It seems to be in direct conflict with Trump's rhetoric on Russia.

Add the commutation of Chelsea Manning to the list of confounding actions by Obama in relation to Russia/Wikileaks.

[bjf123]

We're living in an oil price bubble right now, driving down the demand for smaller, fuel efficient and cheaper vehicles. When the demand for oil heats up again and gas goes back to $4+. Trump has no control over that market. If the price dam breaks in the next four years, it will be interesting to see how he dodges the bullet.

And when that happens, Trump will be blamed for the price hike, just like W was. However, when it hit that range under Obama, radio silence as to him having any responsibility. When it dropped though, the media was all over how great he was doing in bringing the price down.



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[ArizonaXUGrad]

Was it ok when Bush commuted the sentence of Libby? That guy outed the identity of a sitting CIA agent.


Add the commutation of Chelsea Manning to the list of confounding actions by Obama in relation to Russia/Wikileaks.

[Emp]

And when that happens, Trump will be blamed for the price hike, just like W was. However, when it hit that range under Obama, radio silence as to him having any responsibility. When it dropped though, the media was all over how great he was doing in bringing the price down.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Could you point me to this media outpouring of credit to Obama for bringing gas prices down? Every report I've read attributed it to the Saudis refusing to cut production; and lower demand in China, India and the emerging economies.

[GoMuskies]

I can't imagine oil going higher than maybe $60/barrel anytime soon. All the OPEC cartel members are going to cheat on their deal, and even if they don't there's an enormous supply of untapped shale in the U.S. that is just waiting for oil prices to inch up a bit before getting the shit fracked out of it.

[X-man]

Could you point me to this media outpouring of credit to Obama for bringing gas prices down? Every report I've read attributed it to the Saudis refusing to cut production; and lower demand in China, India and the emerging economies.

Plus 1. Maybe a "fake news" outlet?

[Caf]

Was it ok when Bush commuted the sentence of Libby? That guy outed the identity of a sitting CIA agent.

No...?

I'm really not a fan of commuting sentences, especially high profile ones. Obama's commutations of those imprisoned on drug charges is more understandable to me.

[boozehound]

Add the commutation of Chelsea Manning to the list of confounding actions by Obama in relation to Russia/Wikileaks.

I thought that was fake / parody news when I first read it. I have no earthly idea why his/her sentence is being commuted. So basically this dude gives/sells a bunch of classified information to Wikileaks, gets arrested for treason, cools his heels in the joint for a few years while taxpayers foot the bill to have his dong turned into fake vagina, and he then gets let out. I don't get it.


I can't imagine oil going higher than maybe $60/barrel anytime soon. All the OPEC cartel members are going to cheat on their deal, and even if they don't there's an enormous supply of untapped shale in the U.S. that is just waiting for oil prices to inch up a bit before getting the shit fracked out of it.

This is my understanding of the situation as well, from a close friend who is a oil drilling company exec. Layer in an administration that is probably going to be pretty damn permissive about fracking and I don't think there is much risk to oil prices spiking in the near term.

[GoMuskies]

In fairness, though, I don't recall anyone calling for oil to drop like a rock from 120 to 30, either, so really who the hell knows what will happen?

[SemajParlor]

Lmao more people outraged at Chelsea Manning not serving out the full 35 year sentence and not about information Manning provided. Read up, folks.

[SemajParlor]

Was it ok when Bush commuted the sentence of Libby? That guy outed the identity of a sitting CIA agent.

It's a really bizarre tradition when you think about it.

[Caf]

Lmao more people outraged at Chelsea Manning not serving out the full 35 year sentence and not about information Manning provided. Read up, folks.

Manning definitely unearthed some awful and sobering information. It's still a crime and I think there was a lot of outrage over the info when it happened.

Wikileaks has since been proven to be more about tarnishing the US for Russia's gain than actual transparency. Admittedly, Wikileaks involvement is more of the issue for me. Especially considering recent events.

[paulxu]

Pardoning and commuting a sentence are two different thing.

[SemajParlor]

Pardoning and commuting a sentence are two different thing.

Good point - Very true.

[ArizonaXUGrad]

I believe Trump can reverse the commutation or at least has a clock at which he can. Manning, I think passed the fine line between treason and being a whistle-blower. I think Snowden skirted the line without having crossed it.


Good point - Very true.

[boozehound]

Lmao more people outraged at Chelsea Manning not serving out the full 35 year sentence and not about information Manning provided. Read up, folks.

I don't agree. Not only did he reveal classified information, but he gave that classified information to a foreign entity. I don't think we can use the content of the information leaked to determine how wrong it was to leak it. It is a serious crime, as it should be. If he felt that compelled to share the information then he should have holed up with a hostile foreign government like Snowden did. They are both traitors, IMHO.

[Juice]

I believe Trump can reverse the commutation or at least has a clock at which he can. Manning, I think passed the fine line between treason and being a whistle-blower. I think Snowden skirted the line without having crossed it.

Snowden would face the same type of legal repercussions if he actually returned to the country.

[SemajParlor]

I don't think we can use the content of the information leaked to determine how wrong it was to leak it.

Absolutely, 100% I would agree with that. In no way am I trying to sympathize with Manning.

[SemajParlor]

I believe Trump can reverse the commutation or at least has a clock at which he can. Manning, I think passed the fine line between treason and being a whistle-blower. I think Snowden skirted the line without having crossed it.

I would tend to agree. The more time that passes the better Snowden has looked imo. I have a feeling history will treat him much better. I also recognize that some of my viewpoints may not align with a lot of people, that's fine too.

[SemajParlor]

One of the many interesting and fascinating fall outs from the election will be how the American public views these types of leaks moving forward. Can't wait until the approval / disapproval numbers completely seesaw from previous political party alignments.

[Caf]

I honestly can't remember much about the reaction to the information she leaked. It's been awhile. My main issue is the timing. I get that Obama has 3 days left in office (God save us), but it couldn't be worse timing for our credibility on issues pertaining Russia and Wikileaks.

[boozehound]

I would tend to agree. The more time that passes the better Snowden has looked imo. I have a feeling history will treat him much better. I also recognize that some of my viewpoints may not align with a lot of people, that's fine too.

Government whistle blowing is a tough issue for me the more I consider it. One one hand it seems inherently treasonous, on the other hand sometimes we need checks and balances on our government. I would be more inclined to sympathize with Manning or Snowden if they had leaked their info differently. For example by sending it out to all members of Congress or a major American media outlet instead of giving it to that piece of shit Assange.

We also are about to enter into an administration in which we will probably need as many checks and balances on abuse of power as possible. This is going to be an interesting 4 years. Trump is entering office with historically low approval ratings while the outgoing President is seen favorably by 60% of the population. He has a string of dubious cabinet picks and has appointed his children to key positions in his administration. He still hasn't really cleared up the conflict of interest concerns with this business. I wonder what Vegas odds are on Trump actually seeing out the full term?

[GoMuskies]

I think Trump's appointments have been pretty solid other than perhaps DeVos. Which is too bad, as I had high hopes for her. And I don't think his kids are going to be in the administration are they? Eric and Don will run the Trump Organization. I know Ivanka's husband will be an advisor, but I didn't think Ivanka herself got a particularly meaningful role. And even if she did, Ivanka seems pretty great, so I would not be too concerned there.

[bjf123]

Could you point me to this media outpouring of credit to Obama for bringing gas prices down? Every report I've read attributed it to the Saudis refusing to cut production; and lower demand in China, India and the emerging economies.

I'm not talking about the recent price drops. This was much earlier in his term. Can I quote chapter and verse? No, but I distinctly remember him getting credit for gas dropping from the $4/gallon range.


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[X-man]

I'm not talking about the recent price drops. This was much earlier in his term. Can I quote chapter and verse? No, but I distinctly remember him getting credit for gas dropping from the $4/gallon range.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Dude, we have the web. Find your source because I don't believe it.

[boozehound]

I think Trump's appointments have been pretty solid other than perhaps DeVos. Which is too bad, as I had high hopes for her. And I don't think his kids are going to be in the administration are they? Eric and Don will run the Trump Organization. I know Ivanka's husband will be an advisor, but I didn't think Ivanka herself got a particularly meaningful role. And even if she did, Ivanka seems pretty great, so I would not be too concerned there.

I'm not a fan of DeVos (of course), but hey, it's not like education is important. I think Flynn may be the worst pick of the group though - he is borderline dangerous and will play a key role in a department that can get us into wars. I can't say I'm a huge fan of Carson to run HUD, but he probably can't do all that much damage in that role. Mattis seems OK, Pompeo probably won't do anything too crazy, and Tillerson is seeming like a more tolerable pick after the confirmation hearings.

Regarding the nepotism - Don and Eric will be running this business, but I would argue that it seems that Kusher and Ivanka seem poised to play key roles in his administration, even if not formally named to key roles (as they cannot be due to an anti-nepotism law, otherwise I'm sure they would be cabinet level appointees). For example Trump is claiming that Kushner will broker a peace agreement between Israel and Palestine, which seems like a pretty significant task. It also gives us another frightening glimpse into Trump's psyche - the fact that he thinks is publisher and real estate investor son-in-law, with no political experience, is going to broker peace in the middle east shows just how little he knows about foreign policy.

Regarding Ivanka - her role seems to be a little less clear at this point. It sounds like she will function as a de-facto first lady, which is probably fine. I'm not sure how 'great' she is though. She is definitely pretty, but beyond that I don't know a whole lot about her qualifications. She looks pretty great compared to Donald though, I guess.

[GoMuskies]

Kushner is probably as likely as anyone to broker a peace deal between Israel and Palestine. As in, it ain't happening. Better not to waste one of your better folks on that hopeless task.

[boozehound]

Kushner is probably as likely as anyone to broker a peace deal between Israel and Palestine. As in, it ain't happening. Better not to waste one of your better folks on that hopeless task.

You don't think there is risk in injecting a political neophyte into a situation as complex as Israel / Palestine? To be fair, it's anybody's guess whether Trump was serious or whether he was just bullshitting. I guess we just have to wait to find out.

[boozehound]

I forgot about Rick Perry when I was listing my appointees that I was less than thrilled with. Not sure the level of spin on these reports, but if true they would be a little concerning.

http://thehill.com/policy/energy-environment/315005-rick-perry-misunderstood-energy-secretary-job-report

[GoMuskies]

Not big on Perry or Sessions. They can't all be winners!

[X-man]

You don't think there is risk in injecting a political neophyte into a situation as complex as Israel / Palestine? To be fair, it's anybody's guess whether Trump was serious or whether he was just bullshitting. I guess we just have to wait to find out.

Particularly someone to the right of Netanyahu on the settlements issue?

[Juice]

I forgot about Rick Perry when I was listing my appointees that I was less than thrilled with. Not sure the level of spin on these reports, but if true they would be a little concerning.

http://thehill.com/policy/energy-environment/315005-rick-perry-misunderstood-energy-secretary-job-report

That story is false and the media has run with it. The only guy "quoted" in that story has said that he was misquoted and what he really said isn't what is being reported.

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/that-new-york-times-hit-piece-on-perry-was-unsubstantiated-garbage/article/2612311#.WIDUbMBHZKE.twitter


"If you asked him on that first day he said yes, he would have said, 'I want to be an advocate for energy,'" Michael McKenna. "If you asked him now, he'd say, 'I'm serious about the challenges facing the nuclear complex.' It's been a learning curve."

That's it. That is the only piece of supposed evidence provided by the Times to back its claim that the former Texas governor apparently had no idea he'd be tasked with overseeing the U.S.' nuclear arsenal.

And now New York magazine is question the NYT's story: http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2017/01/the-times-may-have-launched-a-false-rumor-about-rick-perry.html?mid=twitter_nymag

[boozehound]

Particularly someone to the right of Netanyahu on the settlements issue?

It's sort of funny if you think about it, but then sad and scary if you think more about about. We are going to send over some 35 year old trust fund baby who is our President's Son-in-law to fix what is arguably the most complex relationship in the middle east. Just the optics of that are staggering. It's amazing how fast we can become a laughing stock.

[Juice]

It's sort of funny if you think about it, but then sad and scary if you think more about about. We are going to send over some 35 year old trust fund baby who is our President's Son-in-law to fix what is arguably the most complex relationship in the middle east. Just the optics of that are staggering. It's amazing how fast we can become a laughing stock.

I'd say it's better than sending over Jimmy f*cking Carter