Politics Thread

[scoscox]

Buttigieg: Trump faked being disabled to get out of Vietnam - The Hill (https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/445220-buttigieg-trump-faked-being-disabled-to-get-out-of-vietnam)

Things are getting spicy!

because no one has ever cast aspersions on trumps military record before! buttigieg seems to be kinda flailing for attention

[scoscox]

Current farmers bailout from tariffs that obviously hurt Americans (farmers), not the Chinese = $28 billion dollars from taxpayers.

It would cost about $20 billion for the government to effectively eliminate homelessness in the United States, a Housing and Urban Development official told the New York Times on Monday.Dec 11, 2012

#MAGA

i don't see how you can think the chinese aren't being hurt by tariffs. we're their biggest importer

if the government could eliminate homelessness with 20 billion it would've been eliminated a long time ago.

[Caf]

because no one has ever cast aspersions on trumps military record before! buttigieg seems to be kinda flailing for attention

The only difference is he's served. And yeah agreed he's trying to stay in the spotlight - polls have not been friendly to him outside of whites from blue states.

[scoscox]

The only difference is he's served. And yeah agreed he's trying to stay in the spotlight - polls have not been friendly to him outside of whites from blue states.

i mean, plenty of people who've served have already hit trump on that. nobody cares.

[scoscox]

If you think that’s bad, just wait and see if, or should I say when, Trump gets re-elected, Twitter users here will be saying “Hold my beer.”


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all these polls showing half of the democratic field up double digits on trump make me laugh. it's all so absurd.

[Caf]

i mean, plenty of people who've served have already hit trump on that. nobody cares.

Not everything is about DJT. What I like about Buttigieg is that he has strong patriotic background. For a long time the GOP has absolutely owned the Democrats on that front and rightfully so. If he could push the other Dems forward or lessen the GOP's hold on that front, I think everyone would be better for it.

I don't like his fiscal policies, I don't think he has anywhere near a chance of making it (especially with a name like that), but I like the voice he adds. It's distinctly different and more authentic than the rest of the democratic field.

[scoscox]

Not everything is about DJT. What I like about Buttigieg is that he has strong patriotic background. For a long time the GOP has absolutely owned the Democrats on that front and rightfully so. If he could push the other Dems forward or lessen the GOP's hold on that front, I think everyone would be better for it.

I don't like his fiscal policies, I don't think he has anywhere near a chance of making it (especially with a name like that), but I like the voice he adds. It's distinctly different and more authentic than the rest of the democratic field.

you posted an article about buttigieg ripping trump. how is that not about trump?

i used to think that about buttigieg, but his sort of attacks on christians and other stuff have kinda turned me off. he's really no different than any of the other democrats. maybe worse in some ways. and no he's not doing anything to shift perceptions of party patriotism

[GoMuskies]

I read on Twitter that Mayor Pete is gay in the wrong way. As a matter of fact, the way he's gay is actually pretty heterosexual.

The things one can learn on Twitter!

[scoscox]

I read on Twitter that Mayor Pete is gay in the wrong way. As a matter of fact, the way he's gay is actually pretty heterosexual.

The things one can learn on Twitter!

I've also heard he's one of those super legit christians that supports abortion up until birth. he's really authentic!

[GoMuskies]

I read on Twitter that Mayor Pete is gay in the wrong way. As a matter of fact, the way he's gay is actually pretty heterosexual.

The things one can learn on Twitter!

Here's the article. You're welcome for the bleeding your eyes are about to do!

https://blog.lareviewofbooks.org/essays/heterosexuality-without-women/

[Caf]

you posted an article about buttigieg ripping trump. how is that not about trump?

i used to think that about buttigieg, but his sort of attacks on christians and other stuff have kinda turned me off. he's really no different than any of the other democrats. maybe worse in some ways. and no he's not doing anything to shift perceptions of party patriotism

Yes, in the simplest reading it is strictly about Trump. It's May 2019 though, he's not jabbing Trump to take votes away from him in November 2020. He's doing it because he's running against Dems who can't go there on patriotism because they've never proven it themselves. This is what he has that Biden, Bernie, Kamala etc. do not have.

[boozehound]

The only difference is he's served. And yeah agreed he's trying to stay in the spotlight - polls have not been friendly to him outside of whites from blue states.

There is no way the guy makes the ticket. I don't think even he believes he will get the nomination.

Having said that, attacking Trump about his military service is fair game, IMO though. To be fair: I'm pretty pro attacking Trump about almost anything. The guy is the absolute worst kind of piece of shit and we should all be ashamed of ourselves for electing him. That's not a political statement. It's a fact about who the guy is. He is a case study for what privilege in America can yield for people of marginal ability. You can trace virtually everything he has 'accomplished' back to being born rich, given a bunch of money by his Dad, and then convincing other rich people to keep giving him money. Then he somehow convinced people to vote for him without them even caring enough to demand that they see his tax returns, like every other candidate in modern history, to verify if any of the bullshit he is spouting about his business prowess is true.

Now that this moron is in power it is increasingly clear that he is an idiot, but half of us are apparently too stupid to care. Try to imagine George W Bush doing any of the crap this fool is doing. You can't. Because he was a decent person of (at least) average intelligence. without a glaring personality disorder. who treated the office of the presidency with respect.

No we get to go back and forth about Trump vs AOC, Bernie Sanders, or some crazy shit like that. We are totally F'd.

[GoMuskies]

All of the above generally not in dispute from my perspective....and I still prefer Trump to Hillary Clinton. Unfortunately, those were the two choices.

[boozehound]

All of the above generally not in dispute from my perspective....and I still prefer Trump to Hillary Clinton. Unfortunately, those were the two choices.

I disagree with you (although I REALLY don't like Hillary either - I just think there is almost no one worse than Trump excluding possibly the far left socialists and whatever Jill Stein was) but can respect this stance.

[bjf123]

All of the above generally not in dispute from my perspective....and I still prefer Trump to Hillary Clinton. Unfortunately, those were the two choices.

What he said.


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[muskienick]

All of the above generally not in dispute from my perspective....and I still prefer Trump to Hillary Clinton. Unfortunately, those were the two choices.

What he said IN SPADES!!!

[Xville]

I disagree with you (although I REALLY don't like Hillary either - I just think there is almost no one worse than Trump excluding possibly the far left socialists and whatever Jill Stein was) but can respect this stance.

As a human being, the guy is a disaster. As a President, there have been far worse. Economy is in good shape, hes trying to fix sins of the past etc.

[Caf]

All of the above generally not in dispute from my perspective....and I still prefer Trump to Hillary Clinton. Unfortunately, those were the two choices.

What he said.


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What he said IN SPADES!!!


How about Biden?

[bobbiemcgee]

i mean, plenty of people who've served have already hit trump on that. nobody cares.

He faked an injury to avoid Vietnam. Yeah, it matters to me. Guess none of your buddies have ever come home in boxes. Patriot, my ass.

https://www.theroot.com/either-trump-s-daddy-helped-him-dodge-draft-or-bone-spu-1831324551

[bjf123]

How about Biden?

Tougher choice, but I’d still go with Trump for one big reason, SCOTUS appointments.


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[GoMuskies]

How about Biden?

I'd be okay with Biden. Kind of blah, but we could do with some blah at this point.

[noteggs]

Tougher choice, but I’d still go with Trump for one big reason, SCOTUS appointments.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Bingo!!!

[boozehound]

As a human being, the guy is a disaster. As a President, there have been far worse. Economy is in good shape, hes trying to fix sins of the past etc.

I think he is worse than just a 'disaster as a human being'. Bill Clinton was a disaster of a human being, but seemed to be in possession of his mental faculties, and generally appeared to take the Presidency seriously. Trump is a disaster of a human being who seems to display no real regard for the responsibilities that he has as President of the United States of America. Furthermore, he does not appear to be interested in putting in the time or effort to learn the job or even to staff his administration.

I don't think we fully appreciate how far we have fallen, or how fast. Remember when Dan Quayle misspelled 'potato' and everybody spent the next year making jokes about how stupid he was? Trump does 3-4 things per day that make that look like child's play, and that's without getting in to the more insidious issues around potential conflicts of interest with his business, family members, and friends.

The level of overt cronyism and, perhaps most shockingly, nepotism exhibited by this administration is unlike anything we have ever seen. They aren't even trying to look like they aren't doing it. The guy is putting close relatives in positions of extreme power and allowing high level security clearances to people with red flags in their background checks. He is putting aggressively unqualified people in key positions, repeatedly, and has fairly systematically weeded out the more qualified individuals in his administration - particularly those who challenge him (Mattis, Kelly, etc.)

Now layer in the level of aggressive dishonesty consistently shown by this administration coupled with a disdain not only for the media but for the 50+% of the population that didn't vote for him and bake in a lot of praise for dictators and strongmen around the globe.

When I actually consider the totality of the flaws that we are willing to look the other way on it amazes me. I'm not one who views Trump as the 'lesser' of almost any evils, but what I truly don't understand is when people claim to be somewhat reluctant supporters of Trump, but still do not support thorough investigations of his affairs, releasing of his taxes, etc. I would think those people would want as much clarity as possible about what he is up to, where his business ties are, who is funding his financial interests, and what he stands to gain financially from foreign interactions. The only thing really separating this guy from banana republic level despotism, in my opinion, is the strength of our checks and balances. I hope there aren't enough of us willing to trade those in for a few supreme court seats.

[GoMuskies]

Mueller about to speak. THIS is political theater!

[Masterofreality]

I think he is worse than just a 'disaster as a human being'. Bill Clinton was a disaster of a human being, but seemed to be in possession of his mental faculties, and generally appeared to take the Presidency seriously. Trump is a disaster of a human being who seems to display no real regard for the responsibilities that he has as President of the United States of America. Furthermore, he does not appear to be interested in putting in the time or effort to learn the job or even to staff his administration.

I don't think we fully appreciate how far we have fallen, or how fast. Remember when Dan Quayle misspelled 'potato' and everybody spent the next year making jokes about how stupid he was? Trump does 3-4 things per day that make that look like child's play, and that's without getting in to the more insidious issues around potential conflicts of interest with his business, family members, and friends.

The level of overt cronyism and, perhaps most shockingly, nepotism exhibited by this administration is unlike anything we have ever seen. They aren't even trying to look like they aren't doing it. The guy is putting close relatives in positions of extreme power and allowing high level security clearances to people with red flags in their background checks. He is putting aggressively unqualified people in key positions, repeatedly, and has fairly systematically weeded out the more qualified individuals in his administration - particularly those who challenge him (Mattis, Kelly, etc.)

Now layer in the level of aggressive dishonesty consistently shown by this administration coupled with a disdain not only for the media but for the 50+% of the population that didn't vote for him and bake in a lot of praise for dictators and strongmen around the globe.

When I actually consider the totality of the flaws that we are willing to look the other way on it amazes me. I'm not one who views Trump as the 'lesser' of almost any evils, but what I truly don't understand is when people claim to be somewhat reluctant supporters of Trump, but still do not support thorough investigations of his affairs, releasing of his taxes, etc. I would think those people would want as much clarity as possible about what he is up to, where his business ties are, who is funding his financial interests, and what he stands to gain financially from foreign interactions. The only thing really separating this guy from banana republic level despotism, in my opinion, is the strength of our checks and balances. I hope there aren't enough of us willing to trade those in for a few supreme court seats.

See all of this is missing the context that Trump is NOT a career politician, unlike EVERY other President. The tax return question is stupid on it's face because there has NEVER been a businessman as President before. Of course there are going to be items of question that the IRS has looked into, but...A) There has been no crime established that anything was done untoward. B) There was no "Russia Collusion". C) This ridiculousness of the Democrats trying to impeach over a flimsy obstruction charge is ludicrous. Fact is that the initial Mueller investigation was a result of a concocted scheme by the Dems through a falsified FISA warrrant which misled the court and caused this "surveillance" on Trump which resulted in zero. Now the left is trying to circle back and call obstruction vs a charge that never should have been made in the first place. Way to dance Dems. Thinking people see right through it. Meanwhile the 'NO Crisis at the Border" that the media and Dems kept claiming when Trump was shutting down the government, errrrr, has materialized into, huh, a crisis at the border everyday. But, see. By just continuing the obstruction/impeachment narrative, that keeps the Dems from having to actually Address Problems like the border or infrastructure.

Trump is an orange haired, narcissistic self absorbed a-hole, but his policies are working, and it's about time somebody had the guts to take on China.
A Businessman who had zero vested interest in Washington. Guess what. That is what the people voted for rather than a charlatan like Bernie Sanders while decrying the wealthy, gets rich himself...like Pelosi, etc. And the media hate him because he's not beholding to them, like most pandering politicians are.

[muskiefan82]

And the media hate him because he's not beholding to them, like most pandering politicians are.

Beholden, not beholding. That is my only issue with your statement. :-)

[Caf]

There is not a businessman in the country without a vested interest in Washington. Maybe that's the image of Trump you bought into, but there's no way you can argue his policies have not directly benefited his businesses. I'm with you on China, but get real arguing that his business background makes the questions of conflicts of interests stupid. If anything it makes them more valid.

[paulxu]

PT was right. You can fool some of the people...all of the time.

[boozehound]

See all of this is missing the context that Trump is NOT a career politician, unlike EVERY other President. The tax return question is stupid on it's face because there has NEVER been a businessman as President before. Of course there are going to be items of question that the IRS has looked into, but...A) There has been no crime established that anything was done untoward. B) There was no "Russia Collusion". C) This ridiculousness of the Democrats trying to impeach over a flimsy obstruction charge is ludicrous. Fact is that the initial Mueller investigation was a result of a concocted scheme by the Dems through a falsified FISA warrrant which misled the court and caused this "surveillance" on Trump which resulted in zero. Now the left is trying to circle back and call obstruction vs a charge that never should have been made in the first place. Way to dance Dems. Thinking people see right through it. Meanwhile the 'NO Crisis at the Border" that the media and Dems kept claiming when Trump was shutting down the government, errrrr, has materialized into, huh, a crisis at the border everyday. But, see. By just continuing the obstruction/impeachment narrative, that keeps the Dems from having to actually Address Problems like the border or infrastructure.

Trump is an orange haired, narcissistic self absorbed a-hole, but his policies are working, and it's about time somebody had the guts to take on China.
A Businessman who had zero vested interest in Washington. Guess what. That is what the people voted for rather than a charlatan like Bernie Sanders while decrying the wealthy, gets rich himself...like Pelosi, etc. And the media hate him because he's not beholding to them, like most pandering politicians are.

Holy smokes. Did Trump write this?

I disagree with virtually all of this, with the exception of the China stuff. I will, however, take the time to address the specific issues you mentioned instead of lapsing into some sort of apparent fugue state and spewing talking points from cable news with limited punctuation.

1. Tax Returns - Why does him being 'a businessman' mean that we shouldn't want to see his taxes? I understand that they will likely show losses that aren't entirely 'real' etc. but I still would like to see his books. Do businessmen not have taxes? I'll give you some leeway on the whole 'not putting his businesses in a blind trust' thing, but allowing him to retain control of his business interests while also not really caring to know what they are is crazy. Try to think objectively and logically through that.

2. Russia - I purposefully made no mention of the Russia collusion narrative since nothing has been proven. I agree with you (for the most part) that all the theater around impeaching for collusion is stupid. I think he probably obstructed justice. It seems to just be how Trump 'works'. I don't know that he believed or knew that he was asking people to obstruct justice. I also think the whole point is moot, because there is no way Senate would convict. See: Clinton, William.

3. Bernie Sanders - Isn't he worth like $2MM? That really isn't much for someone his age who is considered even relatively successful. He is mostly talking about the 1%, which is people who have over (I think) $12MM in assets. His $2MM doesn't even put him in the top 5% by most measures I don't like his politics. In fact, he is one of a very small list of people that might make me consider not voting against Trump if he were to receive the Democratic nomination. Having said that, I think it would be difficult to intelligently argue that Bernie Sanders is a charlatan while Trump is not, which is a pretty direct comparison you made. Trump is all smoke and mirrors. Bernie has been relatively consistent. Generally wrong, but consistent.

Mostly, I think it's F'd up that a bunch of people who ran around talking about 'draining the swamp' are suddenly so OK with so much cronyism, nepotism, and lack of transparency. Why not hold Trump accountable for those things? You don't have to canonize him because you agree with his economic policies. Just because he is 'your guy' doesn't mean that you can't demand some level of transparency or respect for the office of the President of the United States of America.

[bobbiemcgee]

There was no "Russia Collusion"

Said this morning:

…."I had nothing to do with Russia helping me to get elected."

I don't believe he colluded that much but the Ruskies definitely hated Hillary and helped get him elected. Trump, Jr. said money was "pouring in from Russia."

[Masterofreality]

There is not a businessman in the country without a vested interest in Washington. Maybe that's the image of Trump you bought into, but there's no way you can argue his policies have not directly benefited his businesses. I'm with you on China, but get real arguing that his business background makes the questions of conflicts of interests stupid. If anything it makes them more valid.

My comment about the business background had really to do with the continuing demand to "SEE HIS TAX RETURNS!!!!"
Look folks. That is just stupid. The guy, like everyone else, has to file his taxes every year. We actually have an agency- called the IRS- which has been under a Democratic President's control from 2009-2016. That IRS "seemed" to target Conservative leaning organizations during that time. To think that if something was questionable about Trump's taxes during that time, and the IRS wouldn't have flagged it or find a significant break of the law is juvenile thinking. Just another convenient diversion for the left to get outraged about.
And yeah, guess what? A multi-national businessman who develops properties all over the world, happened to want to develop properties in Russia. Wow, what a shock, but that had zero to do as to why he was elected. By the way. How exactly has Trump's election "Benefited his Businesses?" anymore than Bill Clinton's election benefited his & Hilary's now HUGE bank account, or any other successful politician for that matter? Any politician who takes lobbyist money is benefiting, BIG TIME. Don't kid yourself.

[Masterofreality]

Said this morning:

…."I had nothing to do with Russia helping me to get elected."

Yeah, so? Russia actors have been proven to have done stuff...that Obummer's lousy policing allowed to happen. That right out of the Mueller Report and why there were Indictments returned against 17 Russian Nationals. But Trump had nothing to do with it as shown by Mueller.
If you want to place a blame, how about Obummer not taking action when the intelligence community knew that crap was going on. Or How about the Democratic National Committee not being so casual with their email security? Or Hilary not using a non-secure server....etc. ?

[Masterofreality]

Holy smokes. Did Trump write this?

I disagree with virtually all of this, with the exception of the China stuff. I will, however, take the time to address the specific issues you mentioned instead of lapsing into some sort of apparent fugue state and spewing talking points from cable news with limited punctuation.

1. Tax Returns - Why does him being 'a businessman' mean that we shouldn't want to see his taxes? I understand that they will likely show losses that aren't entirely 'real' etc. but I still would like to see his books. Do businessmen not have taxes? I'll give you some leeway on the whole 'not putting his businesses in a blind trust' thing, but allowing him to retain control of his business interests while also not really caring to know what they are is crazy. Try to think objectively and logically through that. Has the IRS found something illegal or untoward? NO? They are responsible for "Looking at Tax Returns. Case Closed.

2. Russia - I purposefully made no mention of the Russia collusion narrative since nothing has been proven. I agree with you (for the most part) that all the theater around impeaching for collusion is stupid. I think he probably obstructed justice. It seems to just be how Trump 'works'. I don't know that he believed or knew that he was asking people to obstruct justice. I also think the whole point is moot, because there is no way Senate would convict. See: Clinton, William. You "Think" You don't know. You have zero evidence. Case dismissed

3. Bernie Sanders - Isn't he worth like $2MM? That really isn't much for someone his age who is considered even relatively successful. He is mostly talking about the 1%, which is people who have over (I think) $12MM in assets. His $2MM doesn't even put him in the top 5% by most measures I don't like his politics. In fact, he is one of a very small list of people that might make me consider not voting against Trump if he were to receive the Democratic nomination. Having said that, I think it would be difficult to intelligently argue that Bernie Sanders is a charlatan while Trump is not, which is a pretty direct comparison you made. Trump is all smoke and mirrors. Bernie has been relatively consistent. Generally wrong, but consistent. Oh, so now we'll just use a convenient measure of "wealth" to fit your narrative. I sure would like $2 million, as would 95% of Americans. I guess that actually being a 5%er is now acceptable for Bernie while he rails against them--and by the way, gives almost nothing to charity. Case dismissed

Mostly, I think it's F'd up that a bunch of people who ran around talking about 'draining the swamp' are suddenly so OK with so much cronyism, nepotism, and lack of transparency. Why not hold Trump accountable for those things? You don't have to canonize him because you agree with his economic policies. Just because he is 'your guy' doesn't mean that you can't demand some level of transparency or respect for the office of the President of the United States of America. Why not hold the Democrats accountable for attempting to destroy a man's life over patently false allegations like justice Kavanaugh? Why not hold them accountable for a patent lie that there was no border crisis that shut down the government in January, when there was absolutely a crisis brewing, that Trump tried to warn about, but there was inaction? Why not hold them accountable for the continuing time wasting "investigations" and divisive impeachment rhetoric that will go nowhere rather than addressing problems? And Lack of transparency? Where was the "transparency" over 8 years of OBummer when the press gave him a quiet free pass. Trump gets grilled on 4 networks every night. Case dismissed due to false equivalence.

Answers ^

[bobbiemcgee]

If your're a foreign govt and you wanted something from trump, where would you stay? Motel 6? Corruption. No wonder he loves the Saudis when they fill up his hotel for weeks.


https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-made-millions-last-year-from-his-hotel-near-the-white-house-2019-5

[Masterofreality]

If your're a foreign govt and you wanted something from trump, where would you stay? Motel 6? Corruption. No wonder he loves the Saudis when they fill up his hotel for weeks.


https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-made-millions-last-year-from-his-hotel-near-the-white-house-2019-5

Is that a crime? NO! #CaseClosed

Seems like his hotel waaaaay pre-dated his election. The Saudi's can stay where they want. Just like you can choose not to stay in his hotel.

[Caf]

My comment about the business background had really to do with the continuing demand to "SEE HIS TAX RETURNS!!!!"
Look folks. That is just stupid. The guy, like everyone else, has to file his taxes every year. We actually have an agency- called the IRS- which has been under a Democratic President's control from 2009-2016. That IRS "seemed" to target Conservative leaning organizations during that time. To think that if something was questionable about Trump's taxes during that time, and the IRS wouldn't have flagged it or find a significant break of the law is juvenile thinking. Just another convenient diversion for the left to get outraged about.
And yeah, guess what? A multi-national businessman who develops properties all over the world, happened to want to develop properties in Russia. Wow, what a shock, but that had zero to do as to why he was elected. By the way. How exactly has Trump's election "Benefited his Businesses?" anymore than Bill Clinton's election benefited his & Hilary's now HUGE bank account, or any other successful politician for that matter? Any politician who takes lobbyist money is benefiting, BIG TIME. Don't kid yourself.

You seem to think the IRS has way more oversight than it does. Maybe someone is asking for them because they think he committed tax fraud, but they're probably idiots. Most are asking for them, just as GOP primary candidates in 2016 did, for transparency. The number of business dealings he has makes these concerns fairly valid, the lengths he's gone to make sure they don't get released makes them very valid.

[vee4xu]

Never mind.

[noteggs]

You seem to think the IRS has way more oversight than it does. Maybe someone is asking for them because they think he committed tax fraud, but they're probably idiots. Most are asking for them, just as GOP primary candidates in 2016 did, for transparency. The number of business dealings he has makes these concerns fairly valid, the lengths he's gone to make sure they don't get released makes them very valid.

Great point and I used to agree releasing them for transparency sake. However if we had a sane Congress (Democrats and Republicans), I don’t see how political gain doesn’t out weigh transparency at this point.

Also more importantly, all the politicians who have run for the presidency before hardly ever get their records scrutinized like Trump will. Why would they since they’re all on the same gravy train. Don’t want to bite the hands that feed them.

[scoscox]

obama had more sealed records than the vatican

[paulxu]

Patently false allegations against Kavanaugh?

Well, that explains why the Republicans failed to call the witness who was in the room.
We can just go with the time honored "he said...she said" and decide her allegations were patently false, because...well, because he said they were.
No need to call the witness.

Come on, for Christ sake.

[scoscox]

i mean, there were multiple patently false allegations made against kavanaugh (julie swetnick and others) and the dr. had plenty of sketchy things about her testimony as well including not knowing the time or place, corroborating witnesses not remembering or flat out refuting, seeming to lie about her fear of flying, and the list goes on.

[bobbiemcgee]

Is that a crime? NO! #CaseClosed

Seems like his hotel waaaaay pre-dated his election. The Saudi's can stay where they want. Just like you can choose not to stay in his hotel.

Nope:

Article I, Section 9, Clause 8 of the Constitution provides: No title of nobility shall be granted by the United States: and no person holding any office of profit or trust under them, shall, without the consent of the Congress, accept of any present, emolument, office, or title, of any kind whatever, from any king, prince, or foreign state.

Emolument:

payment · fee · charge · consideration · salary · pay · wage(s) · earnings · allowance · stipend · honorarium · income · revenue · return · profit · gain · proceeds

[bobbiemcgee]

If one of the Supreme's died, I'm sure The Grim Reaper would call off his 6 month vacation and try for another Bozo like Thomas.

[Lloyd Braun]

Nope:

Article I, Section 9, Clause 8 of the Constitution provides: No title of nobility shall be granted by the United States: and no person holding any office of profit or trust under them, shall, without the consent of the Congress, accept of any present, emolument, office, or title, of any kind whatever, from any king, prince, or foreign state.

Emolument:

payment · fee · charge · consideration · salary · pay · wage(s) · earnings · allowance · stipend · honorarium · income · revenue · return · profit · gain · proceeds

This can’t be true I’m sure he has a blind trust, right? Right!?

[bobbiemcgee]

No, he has a revocable trust (revocable at any time) and his son is the trustee (haha)

[noteggs]

Friendly fire here...

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/21/us/politics/hillary-clinton-presidential-campaign-charity.html

[bobbiemcgee]

Good to know, since she ain't the pres., NEWSFLASH

[tacopizza885]

Good to know, since she ain't the pres., NEWSFLASH

There with you.

https://youtu.be/b-cZG81-MPQ

[scoscox]

Good to know, since she ain't the pres., NEWSFLASH

Correct, but you (presumably) voted for her to be president, so complaining about it with trump can seem disingenuous

[Caf]

Correct, but you (presumably) voted for her to be president, so complaining about it with trump can seem disingenuous

Thinking both are bad, aka having principles not defined by party, is very liberating.

[Caf]

‘Let’s make a deal’: AOC and Ted Cruz (yes, that’s right) teaming up to fix Washington - WP (https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/lets-make-a-deal-aoc-and-ted-cruz-yes-thats-right-teaming-up-to-fix-washington/2019/05/30/bb9dbbfa-832c-11e9-bce7-40b4105f7ca0_story.html?utm_term=.07023465d501)

[boozehound]

Thinking both are bad, aka having principles not defined by party, is very liberating.

This. It's amazing how few people seem to be willing, or capable, of doing so. This extends to people who are generally intelligent and successful individuals.

It also helps you to understand how large groups of people can become complicit in atrocious acts - look throughout history and one thing that you will see repeatedly is that people tend to want to be told what to think and what to do, and that they will break into groups and 'war' with other groups. In the case of the US political theater the War isn't an actual physical War, but a war with clear battle lines. Even a country like America that was founded on the principles of independent thought isn't immune. How crazy is it that we have (basically) two political parties for a country of 300+MM and yet for the majority of the adherents to those parties everything that their party does is right (in their mind) and everything that the other party does is wrong.

This is not what our founding fathers would have wanted, IMHO.

[noteggs]

Good to know, since she ain't the pres., NEWSFLASH

Umm...she was Secretary of State when this was going on. You don’t have to be president and prohibits “public officials” from accepting a title of nobility, office, or gift from any foreign country. You quoted it yourself in your prior post.

[scoscox]

Thinking both are bad, aka having principles not defined by party, is very liberating.

thinking both are bad and caring about and acting on those thoughts are two different things. please point me to any of bobbie's screeds about hillary clinton's conflicts of interest while she was secretary of state or running for the presidency

[STL_XUfan]

C) This ridiculousness of the Democrats trying to impeach over a flimsy obstruction charge is ludicrous. Fact is that the initial Mueller investigation was a result of a concocted scheme by the Dems through a falsified FISA warrrant which misled the court and caused this "surveillance" on Trump which resulted in zero.

This is my favorite conspiracy theory. The Democrats in the summer of 2016 concocted a deep state plan to spy on the Trump campaign in order to release those findings after Trump won the election in order to impeach him. This plan went all the way to the top of the FBI where they director publicly announced weeks before the election an investigation into Hillary Clinton while saying nothing about the investigation that was going on with the Trump campaign. Got to say this cabal really nailed the execution of this plan.

[Masterofreality]

Patently false allegations against Kavanaugh?

Well, that explains why the Republicans failed to call the witness who was in the room.
We can just go with the time honored "he said...she said" and decide her allegations were patently false, because...well, because he said they were.
No need to call the witness.

Come on, for Christ sake.

Yeah, come on!!
No corroborating witnesses. Including the ones Ford tried to use.
No support from Ford’s family.
No explanation as to how the timeline detailed by Ford could not match up between the house and the club.
No explanation as to how Ford got all the way Home.
Why did Ford have 2 lawyers at her table “advising” her when it was not a trial? And Kavanaugh had none?
Why did Feinstein wait over 60 days to bring this hot letter to light?
Oh. And what happened to all that supporting evidence like Ford’s alleged psychologists notes that never, EVER, showed up despite being promised to the Committee.

He said/She said it was not. It was She blatantly lied or was blatantly delusional. Period

This circus was even more of a high tech lynching than the Clarence Thomas debacle. Ford skated away with almost $1 million in Go Fund Me money, with zero accountability. An absolutely shameful exhibition of Democrat buffoonery.

Show me some evidence Paul, cause no one else has, especially charlatan Avenatti.

[noteggs]

‘Let’s make a deal’: AOC and Ted Cruz (yes, that’s right) teaming up to fix Washington - WP (https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/lets-make-a-deal-aoc-and-ted-cruz-yes-thats-right-teaming-up-to-fix-washington/2019/05/30/bb9dbbfa-832c-11e9-bce7-40b4105f7ca0_story.html?utm_term=.07023465d501)

This would great if it happens! Honestly I respect AOC’s position here (Cruz too). She could’ve made millions herself on climate change issues alone once she leaves office. Gotta give credit where credit is do.

[GoMuskies]

‘Let’s make a deal’: AOC and Ted Cruz (yes, that’s right) teaming up to fix Washington - WP (https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/lets-make-a-deal-aoc-and-ted-cruz-yes-thats-right-teaming-up-to-fix-washington/2019/05/30/bb9dbbfa-832c-11e9-bce7-40b4105f7ca0_story.html?utm_term=.07023465d501)

Sounds interesting...but I can't get through the paywall.

[Caf]

Sounds interesting...but I can't get through the paywall.


Here's the "meat" of it.


“I don’t think it should be legal at ALL to become a corporate lobbyist if you’ve served in Congress,” Ocasio-Cortez wrote.

Shortly thereafter, Cruz retweeted her and put in motion the most shocking political pairing in American history, or at least in recent memory.

“Here’s something I don’t say often: on this point, I AGREE with @AOC,” Cruz tweeted. “Indeed, I have long called for a LIFETIME BAN on former Members of Congress becoming lobbyists. The Swamp would hate it, but perhaps a chance for some bipartisan cooperation?”


So, Ocasio-Cortez posited this: If they could agree on a straight ban on members of Congress becoming paid lobbyists with no partisan add-ons, she would co-write the bill with him.

“@tedcruz if you’re serious about a clean bill, then I’m down,” she said. “Let’s make a deal.”

About 20 minutes later, Cruz responded: “You’re on.”

[GoMuskies]

Not an issue I'm particularly passionate about, but I appreciate it when the two sides play nice on issues where they agree even if they disagree on a lot of other things.

[Caf]

thinking both are bad and caring about and acting on those thoughts are two different things. please point me to any of bobbie's screeds about hillary clinton's conflicts of interest while she was secretary of state or running for the presidency

That's fine and true. However, if your concern is hypocrisy and Clinton supporters enabling bad behavior, then I think you'd agree a lot of people are guilty of it today for Trump. Instead of remembering what it was like to be on the other side then, they're basically saying 'It's our turn.'

Whataboutism is a hell of a drug folks.

[chico]

If one of the Supreme's died, I'm sure The Grim Reaper would call off his 6 month vacation and try for another Bozo like Thomas.

I don't care to get involved in all the political discourse, but this statement is just plain wrong.

Read Thomas' concurrence in this case and tell me with a straight face he's a bozo. His methodical explanation of how the founder of Planned Parenthood was a supporter of eugenics, and the further explanation of the inherent connection between eugenics and abortion, is just brilliant.

https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/18pdf/18-483_3d9g.pdf

[paulxu]

Show me some evidence Paul, cause no one else has,

That's exactly the point MOR, and what disturbs me.
In almost every case of "he said...she said" the problem is that it's one person's word against another's.
These actions most often happen where there are no witnesses...forcing us to rely on the person's word, and we end up with nonsense on all sides.
People on both sides asserting the character, credibility, etc of both parties.

But...and this is critical...there was a witness to the Kavanaugh situation. His buddy was in the room when the alleged incident happened.
That's pretty damn simple...have the buddy testify to which person is telling the truth.

But the Republicans running the Senate hearings would not call his buddy to testify. That would concern most people I would think. Maybe not.

[X-man]

That's exactly the point MOR, and what disturbs me.
In almost every case of "he said...she said" the problem is that it's one person's word against another's.
These actions most often happen where there are no witnesses...forcing us to rely on the person's word, and we end up with nonsense on all sides.
People on both sides asserting the character, credibility, etc of both parties.

But...and this is critical...there was a witness to the Kavanaugh situation. His buddy was in the room when the alleged incident happened.
That's pretty damn simple...have the buddy testify to which person is telling the truth.

But the Republicans running the Senate hearings would not call his buddy to testify. That would concern most people I would think. Maybe not.
It would be amazing to think that MOR wouldn't understand this. However he is so partisan that logic and objective reality simply escapes him...over and over again.

[xudash]

It would be amazing to think that MOR wouldn't understand this. However he is so partisan that logic and objective reality simply escapes him...over and over again.

What are your thoughts on the following:

No corroborating witnesses. Including the ones Ford tried to use.
No support from Ford’s family.
No explanation as to how the timeline detailed by Ford could not match up between the house and the club.
No explanation as to how Ford got all the way Home.
Why did Ford have 2 lawyers at her table “advising” her when it was not a trial? And Kavanaugh had none?
Why did Feinstein wait over 60 days to bring this hot letter to light?
Oh. And what happened to all that supporting evidence like Ford’s alleged psychologists notes that never, EVER, showed up despite being promised to the Committee.

[bobbiemcgee]

I don't care to get involved in all the political discourse, but this statement is just plain wrong.

Read Thomas' concurrence in this case and tell me with a straight face he's a bozo. His methodical explanation of how the founder of Planned Parenthood was a supporter of eugenics, and the further explanation of the inherent connection between eugenics and abortion, is just brilliant.

https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/18pdf/18-483_3d9g.pdf

he asked one question in 10 years - brilliant. I'm sure he has excellent clerks.

[paulxu]

What are your thoughts on the following:

No corroborating witnesses. Including the ones Ford tried to use.
No support from Ford’s family.
No explanation as to how the timeline detailed by Ford could not match up between the house and the club.
No explanation as to how Ford got all the way Home.
Why did Ford have 2 lawyers at her table “advising” her when it was not a trial? And Kavanaugh had none?
Why did Feinstein wait over 60 days to bring this hot letter to light?
Oh. And what happened to all that supporting evidence like Ford’s alleged psychologists notes that never, EVER, showed up despite being promised to the Committee.

Dash,
Those are of concern, as well as issues like that on the other side (was he a binge drinker, did he black out, etc.)
Just take one question: why doesn't she remember how she got home?
Is that not credible? I don't remember how I got home from every party in high school.
If she had just been traumatized, maybe that years later is the clearest memory she has?

Those are all the things I alluded to in my question. People will rise up to criticize both sides, and support both sides.

But it fails to answer the simple one. The one that makes all theses cases so hard on everyone...no witnesses.
There was a witness here.

Failure to call that witness should give anyone pause.

[chico]

he asked one question in 10 years - brilliant. I'm sure he has excellent clerks.

So you're basing his competence on whether he asks questions, not his legal reasoning and what he's written. Got it.

[noteggs]

Dash,
Those are of concern, as well as issues like that on the other side (was he a binge drinker, did he black out, etc.)
Just take one question: why doesn't she remember how she got home?
Is that not credible? I don't remember how I got home from every party in high school.
If she had just been traumatized, maybe that years later is the clearest memory she has?

Those are all the things I alluded to in my question. People will rise up to criticize both sides, and support both sides.

But it fails to answer the simple one. The one that makes all theses cases so hard on everyone...no witnesses.
There was a witness here.

Failure to call that witness should give anyone pause.

I get your point to certain degree, but how do you take the politics out the hearings? Mark Judge was investigated by FBI and both sides had access to their findings.

Also Judge sent a letter to the FBI and said:

"I never saw Brett act in the manner Dr. Ford describes. I am knowingly submitting this letter under penalty of felony." So not exactly a he said she said situation

I can’t remember the last time Congress continued their hearings after a closed FBI investigation and came up with a different conclusion. It’s just political theater at that point.

[xudash]

Dash,
Those are of concern, as well as issues like that on the other side (was he a binge drinker, did he black out, etc.)
Just take one question: why doesn't she remember how she got home?
Is that not credible? I don't remember how I got home from every party in high school.
If she had just been traumatized, maybe that years later is the clearest memory she has?

Those are all the things I alluded to in my question. People will rise up to criticize both sides, and support both sides.

But it fails to answer the simple one. The one that makes all theses cases so hard on everyone...no witnesses.
There was a witness here.

Failure to call that witness should give anyone pause.

No problem Paul. I give you that. But I give you that, knowing that her own witnesses were somewhere between less than stellar and non-existent; they weren't all-in in terms of backing her story.

The Democrats on the panel screwed the pooch in that process. Seriously, you have to agree with that. It was a travesty and it was embarrassing for the nation.

Finally, how did we come to a place where foggy high school behavior becomes the pivotal go/no go point in this level of decisioning?

[Masterofreality]

That's exactly the point MOR, and what disturbs me.
In almost every case of "he said...she said" the problem is that it's one person's word against another's.
These actions most often happen where there are no witnesses...forcing us to rely on the person's word, and we end up with nonsense on all sides.
People on both sides asserting the character, credibility, etc of both parties.

But...and this is critical...there was a witness to the Kavanaugh situation. His buddy was in the room when the alleged incident happened.
That's pretty damn simple...have the buddy testify to which person is telling the truth.

But the Republicans running the Senate hearings would not call his buddy to testify. That would concern most people I would think. Maybe not.

The buddy categorically swore and denied that A) There was an incident. B) That he was ever in any room with Ford. C) That he had ever even knew of Christine Blasey Ford. Under Sworn Statement.. Not only that, Ford's former boyfriend in Hawaii contradicted numerous statements that Ford made in front of the Committee. Now, we could take that guy and say that he may only be as credible as Ford, which is nada, or that he actually knows that she was a delusional nut who was so overwhelmed with anger over a Conservative Justice being appointed....a Justice, by the way, which only returned the Court to it's previous status as to balance.
There is no he said/she said here. This is a "she said" that has holes the size of the Grand Canyon in the story, that has been not backed up by ANYONE, including her alleged "best friend" who was also supposed to be there too, and magically Ford has just disappeared. Ford's post hearing activity is tantamount to OJ Simpson "Searching for the Real Killers"- A Nothing Burger.

The fact is, these desperate moves by the left have totally turned the independent voter against them...as much as AOC, Talib, and Bernie have. The left has become a wildly thrashing crazy tornado of ludicrous activity and ideas. And I've got my popcorn all set to watch the destruction of the Libs in November, 2020.

[Masterofreality]

It would be amazing to think that MOR wouldn't understand this. However he is so partisan that logic and objective reality simply escapes him...over and over again.

And all you do is name call and demean without addressing all of the issues I pointed out to Paul. Judge gave a sworn statement under penalty of perjury. Ford's alleged best friend has zero recollection of the incident despite Ford trying to draw her into it, unsolicited. Her family, rather than backing her up, distancedthemselves from her. And you guys have zero answers to all the questions about Ford that are all over the place. Talk about partisan. Show me your objectivity in giving answers rather than just pulling the usual Lib move- shout, demean, disrespect and provide no responses on the questions. i assume you were trained in critical thinking at X. It's amazing that you don't understand the simple concept of evidence and credibility, when no, that's NO one else, male or female, back Ford up.

[Juice]

This statement is thirty times crazier than any of Trump's tweets

https://mobile.twitter.com/realsaavedra/status/1135946836085133312?s=21

[paulxu]

I don't know. Trump still thinking China is paying for the tariffs is pretty far out there.

[bobbiemcgee]

This statement is thirty times crazier than any of Trump's tweets


Did you forget the "stable genius' called Rubio a "leightweight chocker."

[Mrs. Garrett]

This statement is thirty times crazier than any of Trump's tweets

https://mobile.twitter.com/realsaavedra/status/1135946836085133312?s=21

No it's not.

[Juice]

No it's not.

You a Bette Middler fan?

[GoMuskies]

No it's not.

I think it's tied with Covfefe.

Someone named a horse Covfefe, and it broke the Pimlico track record on Blacked Eyed Susan Day.

[Caf]

This statement is thirty times crazier than any of Trump's tweets

https://mobile.twitter.com/realsaavedra/status/1135946836085133312?s=21

"He’s not a war hero. He’s a war hero because he was captured. I like people that weren’t captured."

I have more if you need them.

[Mrs. Garrett]

You a Bette Middler fan?

What does that even mean?

[Juice]

What does that even mean?

It was about something he tweeted last night making fun of her. It was a joke (by me, not by Trump).

[Mrs. Garrett]

It was about something he tweeted last night making fun of her. It was a joke (by me, not by Trump).

Got it.

I think AOC and Trump have a lot it common. For example, neither of them has any business being a politician.

[noteggs]

Man, it’s going to be hard to get that Genie back in the bottle.

http://www.businessinsider.com/john-hickenlooper-john-delaney-bash-socialism-as-campaign-strategy-2019-6

[XU 87]

Got it.

I think AOC and Trump have a lot it common. For example, neither of them has any business being a politician.

I read an interesting article a few months ago which discussed that AOC and Trump are very similar, not in their political beliefs, but in how they go about presenting their beliefs and arguing against the other side. Peggy Noonan may have been the author, but I'm not sure.

[xudash]

Did you forget the "stable genius' called Rubio a "leightweight chocker."

Bobbie, do you believe in Socialism, in any form?

[Caf]

Did you forget the "stable genius' called Rubio a "leightweight chocker."

Do you reject Satan and all his evils?

[paulxu]

"Socialism," this election cycle's "Muslims" or "Mexicans."

Need to keep stoking the fear of the other.

Bump

[xudash]

Bump

Paul, with all due respect, this is very different.

How does the Declaration of Independence define freedom? - - Wants without hindrance or restraint. In other words, freedom is the right to be an individual, a right that Americans are fortunate enough to have defined and protected in the founding documents of this country. The Declaration of Independence, the Constitution, and the Bill of Rights.

What is the principle of liberty? - - The principle that individuals have an unalienable right to act in their own interest with complete control over themselves and their production (i.e. property), and are the sole arbiters of what is best for themselves so long as their actions do not infringe upon the liberty or property rights of others.

Mine is a simple question. This nation has been about freedom and liberty, albeit not always uniformly and effectively applied. Socialism is about the collective good.

One of the Democrats running for President was booed during a campaign speech last night in California for denouncing socialism. There were "American Citizens" (i.e. nut jobs) booing a candidate because he positioned himself firmly away from the Far Left's desire to VENEZUELAIZE the United States.

We have liberals on this site. They're as welcome here as I am, I hope. I just want to know how far to the left they've positioned themselves in terms of taking a position on how best to make the United States stronger.

With all that noted, do I believe there is income inequality? Hell, yes, of course I do; anyone who can interpret data and is honest with him or herself could only come to that conclusion.

Can you fix greed? Doesn't look promising, based on history and the greed that exists with certain people in power in both capitalist and socialist economic systems.

The question stands.

[OH.X.MI]

"Socialism," this election cycle's "Muslims" or "Mexicans."

Need to keep stoking the fear of the other.

"Capitalist," this election cycles "white" "straight" "racist" "homophobic" "male."

You keep stoking the fear of the other too, buddy.

[Caf]

Paul, with all due respect, this is very different.

How does the Declaration of Independence define freedom? - - Wants without hindrance or restraint. In other words, freedom is the right to be an individual, a right that Americans are fortunate enough to have defined and protected in the founding documents of this country. The Declaration of Independence, the Constitution, and the Bill of Rights.

What is the principle of liberty? - - The principle that individuals have an unalienable right to act in their own interest with complete control over themselves and their production (i.e. property), and are the sole arbiters of what is best for themselves so long as their actions do not infringe upon the liberty or property rights of others.

Mine is a simple question. This nation has been about freedom and liberty, albeit not always uniformly and effectively applied. Socialism is about the collective good.

One of the Democrats running for President was booed during a campaign speech last night in California for denouncing socialism. There were "American Citizens" (i.e. nut jobs) booing a candidate because he positioned himself firmly away from the Far Left's desire to VENEZUELAIZE the United States.

We have liberals on this site. They're as welcome here as I am, I hope. I just want to know how far to the left they've positioned themselves in terms of taking a position on how best to make the United States stronger.

With all that noted, do I believe there is income inequality? Hell, yes, of course I do; anyone who can interpret data and is honest with him or herself could only come to that conclusion.

Can you fix greed? Doesn't look promising, based on history and the greed that exists with certain people in power in both capitalist and socialist economic systems.

The question stands.

I like how you phrased this and I think it gets at something I've been saying to the point where family tells me to shut up. All of this polarity, Trump, Bernie, AOC, all of it is a result of '08, the bailouts, and the Fed's quantitative easing propping up asset prices. People love to talk about the perils of socialism versus capitalism and I am totally a believer in capitalism. But we don't have capitalism. I'm stealing this quote from someone, but capitalism without default/bankruptcy is like Catholicism without hell.

Take your line about "individuals have an unalienable right to act in their own interest" and consider that millions of Americans bailed out banks and propped up asset prices of others. The promise of that freedom you mention was broken then, and you can't just patch it back up. The economy is supposedly great, the longest bull market ever, and yet millions have not experienced any growth. They don't care about these principles because when the going got tough the government bailed on them and bailed out banks and investors.

[xudash]

I like how you phrased this and I think it gets at something I've been saying to the point where family tells me to shut up. All of this polarity, Trump, Bernie, AOC, all of it is a result of '08, the bailouts, and the Fed's quantitative easing propping up asset prices. People love to talk about the perils of socialism versus capitalism and I am totally a believer in capitalism. But we don't have capitalism. I'm stealing this quote from someone, but capitalism without default/bankruptcy is like Catholicism without hell.

Take your line about "individuals have an unalienable right to act in their own interest" and consider that millions of Americans bailed out banks and propped up asset prices of others. The promise of that freedom you mention was broken then, and you can't just patch it back up. The economy is supposedly great, the longest bull market ever, and yet millions have not experienced any growth. They don't care about these principles because when the going got tough the government bailed on them and bailed out banks and investors.

Very fair observations.

"Too big to fail" Sure, okay (sarcasm). People should have burned in prison at the very least for that debacle.

Among other things:

1. Term limits for all these assholes.

2. Elimination of their specialized programs (i.e. eliminate their exemptions from programs other Americans must choke on) and have them realigned to the rest of us, including their ridiculous retirement program and exemptions from certain crimes.

3. Burn down K Street, etc.

4. Jail time - hard, merciless jail time - for any Wall Street asswipe who securitizes us into synthetic securities oblivion again.

Love the bolded quote.

[paulxu]

The question stands.

Dash, fair question. Short answer is of course I don't believe in "socialism."

Here's a much longer answer.
I went the other night to hear Kamala Harris at a town hall here in Spartanburg. Outside there were 10 or so college kids protesting her appearance.
Each had a different sign.
As we had over an hour to wait in line, I went up to chat with these young people.
I had the good fortune to run for federal office a couple of times here in South Carolina, as a Democrat.
For about 45 minutes we had our own town hall, where I asked each of them to describe what their sign meant, and what they were trying to communicate.
Wonderful discusions; kids were well meaning, passionate, engaged in the political process, etc. Did my old heart good when I think about the future of the country.

One young man had a sign that said "Socialism" with a big red line through it. I asked him to elaborate. After a while I asked him what socialism was.
He couldn't really answer...none of them could. It was the fear of government, driven home by the media, distrust/anger at immigrants, and lots of other stuff...but not socialism.

You and I know socialism is a system whereby the government controls the means of production.
I don't know of any democrat that believes we should have that.

On the other hand, there are a lot of things that we might call "social" programs that benefit "society" as a whole.
The fire department, the police department, social security insurance, etc.
They are forms of social compacts that society has made with itself to benefit the greater good of all.

This "socialism" rant that I'll have to listen to until November of next year is just a way to create negative emotion against the democrats.
It has no real basis in fact. But, I'll grant that it is incredibly effective...as evidenced by the young people I spoke with a few days ago.

[GoMuskies]

I don't think what you've described is socialism. I think that's communism.

We need some socialism in government. That's what our tax dollars pay for. We need to provide for the general welfare of the country. The question is how much socialism. I think we're in for a tweak here and there in our current system, but we certainly should not be aiming for European style socialism IMO.

[OH.X.MI]

You and I know socialism is a system whereby the government controls the means of production.
I don't know of any democrat that believes we should have that.

On the other hand, there are a lot of things that we might call "social" programs that benefit "society" as a whole.
The fire department, the police department, social security insurance, etc.
They are forms of social compacts that society has made with itself to benefit the greater good of all.

Control the means of production. Hmmmm. Couldn't be anything like this proposal from good ole' Kamala Harris:

- "Companies will be required to obtain an “Equal Pay Certification” and prove they’re not paying women less than men for work of equal value.
- "Companies will be fined 1% of their profits for every 1% wage gap they allow to persist for work of equal value."
- "Companies will be required to disclose whether they are “Equal Pay Certified” on the homepage of their websites."
- "HARRIS WON’T WAIT FOR CONGRESS TO ACT, SHE’LL TAKE EXECUTIVE ACTION HERSELF"

https://kamalaharris.org/equalpay/?mod=article_inline

That is controlling the means of production. That is controlling the means of commerce. That is controlling free enterprise. That is socialism.

[xudash]

Dash, fair question. Short answer is of course I don't believe in "socialism."

Here's a much longer answer.
I went the other night to hear Kamala Harris at a town hall here in Spartanburg. Outside there were 10 or so college kids protesting her appearance.
Each had a different sign.
As we had over an hour to wait in line, I went up to chat with these young people.
I had the good fortune to run for federal office a couple of times here in South Carolina, as a Democrat.
For about 45 minutes we had our own town hall, where I asked each of them to describe what their sign meant, and what they were trying to communicate.
Wonderful discusions; kids were well meaning, passionate, engaged in the political process, etc. Did my old heart good when I think about the future of the country.

One young man had a sign that said "Socialism" with a big red line through it. I asked him to elaborate. After a while I asked him what socialism was.
He couldn't really answer...none of them could. It was the fear of government, driven home by the media, distrust/anger at immigrants, and lots of other stuff...but not socialism.

You and I know socialism is a system whereby the government controls the means of production.
I don't know of any democrat that believes we should have that.

On the other hand, there are a lot of things that we might call "social" programs that benefit "society" as a whole.
The fire department, the police department, social security insurance, etc.
They are forms of social compacts that society has made with itself to benefit the greater good of all.

This "socialism" rant that I'll have to listen to until November of next year is just a way to create negative emotion against the democrats.
It has no real basis in fact. But, I'll grant that it is incredibly effective...as evidenced by the young people I spoke with a few days ago.

Thanks for the post Paul.

Since I know you a little, my original question wasn't even directed at you. I know you would never espouse SOCIALISM in place of even whatever it is that we have now.

Otherwise, I guess I had better start paying a little more attention to what Bernie, Pocahontas and a few of the candidates are actually saying. Frankly, the Far Left base/establishment of the Democratic Party APPEAR to be about far left solutions, and they're unwilling or incapable of demonstrating real leadership by helping to tackle the immigration issue, as a key example of an issue that should have American interests prioritized over any other interests involved.

[GoMuskies]

Control the means of production. Hmmmm. Couldn't be anything like this proposal from good ole' Kamala Harris:

- "Companies will be required to obtain an “Equal Pay Certification” and prove they’re not paying women less than men for work of equal value.
- "Companies will be fined 1% of their profits for every 1% wage gap they allow to persist for work of equal value."
- "Companies will be required to disclose whether they are “Equal Pay Certified” on the homepage of their websites."
- "HARRIS WON’T WAIT FOR CONGRESS TO ACT, SHE’LL TAKE EXECUTIVE ACTION HERSELF"

https://kamalaharris.org/equalpay/?mod=article_inline

That is controlling the means of production. That is controlling the means of commerce. That is controlling free enterprise. That is socialism.

This is a really fucking terrible idea. The real gender wage gap is tiny.

[OH.X.MI]

This is a really fucking terrible idea. The real gender wage gap is tiny.

It's almost like what PaulXU said above: "It has no real basis in fact. But, I'll grant that it is incredibly effective...as evidenced by the young people I spoke with a few days ago."

[paulxu]

That is controlling the means of production. That is controlling the means of commerce. That is controlling free enterprise. That is socialism.

Possibly. Or, it could be this also.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5a/EqualJusticeUnderLaw.jpg/250px-EqualJusticeUnderLaw.jpg

[GoMuskies]

Possibly. Or, it could be this also.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5a/EqualJusticeUnderLaw.jpg/250px-EqualJusticeUnderLaw.jpg

No, it's not that. We've already got laws in place to protect that.

[Juice]

Control the means of production. Hmmmm. Couldn't be anything like this proposal from good ole' Kamala Harris:

- "Companies will be required to obtain an “Equal Pay Certification” and prove they’re not paying women less than men for work of equal value.
- "Companies will be fined 1% of their profits for every 1% wage gap they allow to persist for work of equal value."
- "Companies will be required to disclose whether they are “Equal Pay Certified” on the homepage of their websites."
- "HARRIS WON’T WAIT FOR CONGRESS TO ACT, SHE’LL TAKE EXECUTIVE ACTION HERSELF"

https://kamalaharris.org/equalpay/?mod=article_inline

That is controlling the means of production. That is controlling the means of commerce. That is controlling free enterprise. That is socialism.

The funny part is that Kamala doesn't even pay the women who work on her campaign staff the same as men.

[XU 87]

The funny part is that Kamala doesn't even pay the women who work on her campaign staff the same as men.

There's no standard like a double standard.

[Juice]

There's no standard like a double standard.

It's definitely from a right wing source but here's what they found...


In her Senate office's most recent six-month disclosure, covering the period from April 1, 2018, through Sept. 31, 2018, the median male salary disbursement was $34,999 and the median female salary disbursement was $32,999, leaving women with just 94 cents of every dollar paid to men.

The gender pay gap for the previous six-month period, during which the median male salary was $27,167 and the median female salary was $25,749.97, was a nearly identical 6 percent.

The pay gap was even greater during the first full month of Harris's presidential campaign in February—the median female salary disbursement for the month, $5,763.97, was about 87 percent of the median male salary disbursement, $6,632.23, a further analysis of her campaign filing found.

The Harris campaign came closer to gender pay equality in March, when the median female disbursement was about 95 percent of the median male disbursement.


It is unclear based on the available information whether men and women were paid equally for equal work—both Senate offices and campaign are required only to disclose how much money is disbursed to individuals, not details such as annual salaries or hours worked.

A spokesman for Harris's campaign did not respond to a request for comment on the gender pay gaps in her Senate office and on her campaign, and whether either would be granted "equal pay certification" under her proposed system.

https://freebeacon.com/politics/men-paid-more-than-women-in-kamala-harriss-senate-office-and-campaign/

[OH.X.MI]

Possibly. Or, it could be this also.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5a/EqualJusticeUnderLaw.jpg/250px-EqualJusticeUnderLaw.jpg

I fail to understand your attempt at a cheeky point. But I'll do my best to play along.

Is "equal pay" a right enumerated in the Constitution or its Amendments? I've never seen it. But, as you said: "It has no real basis in fact. But, I'll grant that it is incredibly effective."

Or, are you implying that existing discrimination/wage laws are not "equally" accessible or "equally" enforced? Again, as you said: "It has no real basis in fact. But, I'll grant that it is incredibly effective." The EEOC isn't turning away wage discrimination complaints at the door. Federal District Courts aren't dismissing wage discrimination cases out of hand.

Now, the argument could be that our current discrimination/wage laws are insufficient. That's not an "equal justice under the law" argument. It's a policy argument that the Federal government should have greater control over private enterprise. If that's the case, well then we do have a debate over socialism, communism, or whatever new word the left comes up with to hide their anti-free market ideology. To be clear, Constitutionality and policy debates over economic policy are not the same thing. Well, unless Harris really thinks she can usurp congress and pass her plan via executive order. But that's another issue.

Harris isn't the only one doing this. How about the proposal from Elizabeth Warren last year, the Accountable Capitalism Act, which would mandate that every corporation with $1 billion or more of annual revenue obtain a federal charter forcing such corporations to hold elections in which employees would fill 40% of board seats—enough to give them a blocking position on any major transaction. https://www.warren.senate.gov/newsroom/press-releases/warren-introduces-accountable-capitalism-act

This is one of the debates we are facing in this election. And it's a damn important one.

Perhaps you do don't agree with Harris and Warren on these issues, or at all. I don't know. But saying stuff like "You and I know socialism is a system whereby the government controls the means of production. I don't know of any democrat that believes we should have that" and then hiding behind some snarky "equal justice" meme when confronted with evidence is totally insincere.

But hey. I'm just one of the "racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic, Islamaphobic" "basket of deplorables" that will proudly vote for Trump next year. What could I know.

[bobbiemcgee]

Bobbie, do you believe in Socialism, in any form?

What is it when Trump gives farmers 28 billion along with 25 billion more in subsidies? Our tax dollars. No wonder they like him.

[xudash]

What is it when Trump gives farmers 28 billion along with 25 billion more in subsidies? Our tax dollars. No wonder they like him.

So, your answer is YES.

[paulxu]

I fail to understand your attempt at a cheeky point. But I'll do my best to play along.

Is "equal pay" a right enumerated in the Constitution or its Amendments? I've never seen it. But, as you said: "It has no real basis in fact. But, I'll grant that it is incredibly effective."

Or, are you implying that existing discrimination/wage laws are not "equally" accessible or "equally" enforced? Again, as you said: "It has no real basis in fact. But, I'll grant that it is incredibly effective." The EEOC isn't turning away wage discrimination complaints at the door. Federal District Courts aren't dismissing wage discrimination cases out of hand.

There's nothing cheeky about my response, and nothing about women seeking equal wages for equal work that is some sort of perverted socialism.
They fact that they are still going to court to be treated the same as men, on an equal footing, should be all you need to know to understand that there is still work to be done in a lot of areass.

You can say that work is "socialism" to scare people, but perhaps it's just people seeking the promise of America; equal justice under law.

[OH.X.MI]

There's nothing cheeky about my response, and nothing about women seeking equal wages for equal work that is some sort of perverted socialism.
They fact that they are still going to court to be treated the same as men, on an equal footing, should be all you need to know to understand that there is still work to be done in a lot of areass.

You can say that work is "socialism" to scare people, but perhaps it's just people seeking the promise of America; equal justice under law.

It never ceases to amaze me when people like you pivot to buzz words like “liberty” and “justice” while simultaneously accusing conservatives of fear mongering rhetoric. Yeah. Every conservative out here is working their damndest to keep women from earning money. Caught us! We’re the ones who don’t believe in liberty! At least own up to what your party wants; especially when confronted with evidence that fits your own definition of “socialism.” I’d at least respect that.

[xukeith]

CEOs of organizations would be stupid to hire men as they could save MILLIONS paying women to do the same job.
The fact is, the disparity is a statistics lie. That is why men and women are hired. Average social workers make less than engineers.
So the stats are on jobs, not sex.

[paulxu]

At least own up to what your party wants; especially when confronted with evidence that fits your own definition of “socialism.” I’d at least respect that.

My definition of socialism is where the government controls the means of production.
Here is my party's platform. I invite you to find where there is any evidence that fits my definition (and most dictionaries) of socialism in the platform.

https://democrats.org/about/party-platform/

[vee4xu]

Soooooooooo Where's the Consensus? This baby has been going on for 2 1/2 years and the names and opinions have been exactly the same over that entire time. I don't care, but I'll check into this thread every several months just to see if anything is being accomplished by the dialogue. I've decided the answer is no, due to entrenched ideology on both sides. But, if there's a catharses that takes place by typing the same thing over-and-over on one side, only to see the same response over-and-over from the other side, then that's great, I guess. One thing all political conversations and chat boards have taught me personally over the past years, is no one ever changes anyone's mind. We all just keep talking past one another in this endless and fruitless effort to get the other person onto my side, instead of speaking, listening with an open mind, learning from someone, resolving and moving on. Even if we feel the same as when the whole discussion started, we should at least understand and respect the other side of my opinion. However, in this shout past each other world in which we live, that doesn't happen. It's a binary situation: Losers and winners, but no resolution. William F. Buckley and Gore Vidal must be rolling over in their graves.

[xu82]

Soooooooooo Where's the Consensus? This baby has been going on for 2 1/2 years and the names and opinions have been exactly the same over that entire time. I don't care, but I'll check into this thread every several months just to see if anything is being accomplished by the dialogue. I've decided the answer is no, due to entrenched ideology on both sides. But, if there's a catharses that takes place by typing the same thing over-and-over on one side, only to see the same response over-and-over from the other side, then that's great, I guess. One thing all political conversations and chat boards have taught me personally over the past years, is no one ever changes anyone's mind. We all just keep talking past one another in this endless and fruitless effort to get the other person onto my side, instead of speaking, listening with an open mind, learning from someone, resolving and moving on. Even if we feel the same as when the whole discussion started, we should at least understand and respect the other side of my opinion. However, in this shout past each other world in which we live, that doesn't happen. It's a binary situation: Losers and winners, but no resolution. William F. Buckley and Gore Vidal must be rolling over in their graves.

I just come here when I can’t sleep......

[X-man]

My definition of socialism is where the government controls the means of production.
Here is my party's platform. I invite you to find where there is any evidence that fits my definition (and most dictionaries) of socialism in the platform.

https://democrats.org/about/party-platform/

That is the textbook definition. The VA and the USPS are examples. Medicare is not.

[Caf]

I'll check into this thread every several months just to see if anything is being accomplished by the dialogue. I've decided the answer is no, due to entrenched ideology on both sides.

While it's certainly not the norm, I find a lot of middle ground with posters on here. In particular Go, Booze, and Eggs among others are consistently willing and able to question their own views. I live in a liberal stronghold, and while I think this board is predominantly conservative the spread is still pretty diverse geographically. I enjoy coming to see what people outside of my area think and I believe it's made me a stronger moderate than I otherwise would be.

[fellahmuskie]

I don't post much in here, but I do appreciate the range of mostly conservative opinions.

My own opinions have changed over the years, but it's difficult to pinpoint why/when exactly it happens.

Being able to learn from and listen to others, and staying true to the values you believe in, is not easy

[chico]

I didn't know whether or not to post this in "funny stuff" or here but since this thread appears on the first page I'll do it here.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nJw-hBXJxWM

Full disclosure: The West Wing, even with its liberal bent and idealization of the White House, was one of the best shows ever on television.

[Juice]

I didn't know whether or not to post this in "funny stuff" or here but since this thread appears on the first page I'll do it here.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nJw-hBXJxWM

Full disclosure: The West Wing, even with its liberal bent and idealization of the White House, was one of the best shows ever on television.

Today he said that if he was elected president that they would cure cancer. Quite the campaign promise.

[Lloyd Braun]

Today he said that if he was elected president that they would cure cancer. Quite the campaign promise.

It’s laughable. Equally laughable as a promise to build a wall across the entire southern US border. Then when funding for curing “cancer” is not there he can come back and say he didn’t mean ALL cancers (entire border), only a certain types of cancers that are genetic (high traffic regions). And instead of curing cancer (ie building a wall) he really means better treatment for cancers (sorry it’s just a fence).

Only difference is that curing cancer doesn’t get as many irrational people fired up.

[scoscox]

The practicality of building a fence along the southern border is orders of magnitude easier than curing cancer come on lol this is ridiculous. at least put some effort into it.

[Lloyd Braun]

The practicality of building a fence along the southern border is orders of magnitude easier than curing cancer come on lol this is ridiculous. at least put some effort into it.

Wall or fence? They are both laughable for different reasons...

Are you against curing cancer?

See how easy it is to defend something ridiculous?

[bobbiemcgee]

Trump said he would be willing to listen to foreign governments if they approached him with information on a political rival.
Sez the guy he appointed as FBI Director has it wrong. It's OK.

[Juice]

It’s laughable. Equally laughable as a promise to build a wall across the entire southern US border. Then when funding for curing “cancer” is not there he can come back and say he didn’t mean ALL cancers (entire border), only a certain types of cancers that are genetic (high traffic regions). And instead of curing cancer (ie building a wall) he really means better treatment for cancers (sorry it’s just a fence).

Only difference is that curing cancer doesn’t get as many irrational people fired up.

Sure

[Caf]

Considering all the dumb shit candidates and political leaders waste our time and money on, I'd be thrilled if cancer research became a topic of this election. It's far better than the going game of blame the foreigner or the rich for all of our problems.

[Masterofreality]

Trump said he would be willing to listen to foreign governments if they approached him with information on a political rival.
Sez the guy he appointed as FBI Director has it wrong. It's OK.

Just like every politician EVER who runs for EVERYTHING, right? Just like a DNC funded "dossier" that was all fake developed by a foreigner Brit that the Dems have used for cover for 3 f-ing years, right?. Don't tell me that any pol ever, in their narcissistic world would not accept info- from anybody. Trump just tells it like it is and every media outlet goes batshit crazy. "Oh. You mean politics aren't squeaky clean?" "SHOCKING!!"

I'm disgusted with the way the media- Namely ABC, NBC the NYT, Cable Nebulous Network and Washington Pissed, just look for anything to hang this President on while ignoring all the good stuff that's happening. The Dude gives a pretty biased-against-him "journalist", former Clintonite Stephanopolous 2 free days of access to talk to him, and what does old Snufalufagous do? Tries to nail him on a question about foreign info, then plays it up without hardly any other coverage. Disgusting as hell. Hey ABC. Your fake Russia Collusion narrative was BS, and you used it for 3 years trying to make chicken salad out or chicken sheet, and now you just can't give it up. You ignored covering Obummer's foibles for 8 years. Just stop.

[STL_XUfan]

Don't tell me that any pol ever, in their narcissistic world would not accept info- from anybody. Trump just tells it like it is and every media outlet goes batshit crazy. "Oh. You mean politics aren't squeaky clean?" "SHOCKING!!"



I mean Al Gore's team went to the FBI when they were provided information they believed was illegal. So maybe not "any pol ever."

[Masterofreality]

I mean Al Gore's team went to the FBI when they were provided information they believed was illegal. So maybe not "any pol ever."

Wow!! A debate prep book for Bush that was stolen by a Texas guy, 20 years ago, not exactly campaign changing material...Balance that with some Dem sneaking into a Mitt Romney private fundraiser, taping his comments to a friendly audience then sending it right over to the press who played it up to help Obummer.

[Caf]

Balance that with some Dem sneaking into a Mitt Romney private fundraiser, taping his comments to a friendly audience then sending it right over to the press who played it up to help Obummer.

You're really reaching on this one.

Donna Brazile leaking debate questions is a better example that I don't think got enough attention.

[paulxu]

I think Trump is just inviting Russia and China to help him in the election next year.
It seems to have worked the first time.

[noteggs]

I figured it was a matter of time for the Koch brothers thread to become political so I moving that part of the discussion.

Unfortunately the press did a great job of labeling them as far right and leaders of the Republican party. Fact is they’re Libertarians. They believe in free trade, for amnesty (dreamers) and do not support Trump.

This article even suggests they may consider backing certain Democrats in 2020. Not exactly an extreme point of view.

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/06/06/koch-network-open-to-democrats-as-expands-political-engagement.html

[GoMuskies]

The Koch political network has changed quite a bit with David Koch fading out of the picture. Charles Koch is much more of an issues guy than a partisan politics guy. It will likely take another dramatic turn (not sure in what direction) when 83 year old Charles is no longer involved and the spotlight turns to 42 year old Chase Koch. Here's an article trying to read the tea leaves on what might change: https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2018/12/14/koch-brothers-chase-charles-next-generation-223099

Note that David Koch's kids are coming of age now as well, though, and who knows where that will lead...

[bjf123]

I think Trump is just inviting Russia and China to help him in the election next year.
It seems to have worked the first time.

I’m sure I’m in the minority here, but I don’t think the Russians really cared who won in 2016. They just wanted to create divisiveness and internal problems for us. I’m thinking that if Hillary had won, the Republicans in Congress would have gone nuts claiming Russian interference helped Hillary and launched a bunch of useless investigations.


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[X-man]

I’m sure I’m in the minority here, but I don’t think the Russians really cared who won in 2016. They just wanted to create divisiveness and internal problems for us. I’m thinking that if Hillary had won, the Republicans in Congress would have gone nuts claiming Russian interference helped Hillary and launched a bunch of useless investigations.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Are you calling Putin a liar? See link:https://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/2018/07/16/putin-yes-trump-election-acosta-reax-vpx.cnn.

[Masterofreality]

You're really reaching on this one.

Donna Brazile leaking debate questions is a better example that I don't think got enough attention.

Well we can agree on that.

[Caf]

Unfortunately the press did a great job of labeling them as far right and leaders of the Republican party. Fact is they’re Libertarians. They believe in free trade, for amnesty (dreamers) and do not support Trump.

I don't see this as a false characterization by the press, just a change in the environment around the Kochs. Libertarians had been right at home in the Republican party for a long time. When the Tea Party was going strong libertarians, and by extension the Kochs, pretty much were the leaders of the Republican Party. Now the Republican party has moved, especially fiscally, away from where it was then.

[Caf]

Pompeo Says Iran Is Responsible for Tanker Attacks - WSJ (https://www.wsj.com/articles/reports-of-incident-in-gulf-of-oman-send-oil-prices-up-11560410373?mod=hp_lead_pos1)

Not good

[noteggs]

I don't see this as a false characterization by the press, just a change in the environment around the Kochs. Libertarians had been right at home in the Republican party for a long time. When the Tea Party was going strong libertarians, and by extension the Kochs, pretty much were the leaders of the Republican Party. Now the Republican party has moved, especially fiscally, away from where it was then.

Fair and a lot to unpack hear CAF (thanks for that LOL). I agree with GO on Charles being an issue guy more than partisan. That’s not how the Democrats and press presented them and we even had a poster call them far right extremists. As for recently moving away from party because of spending, could be a big reason but how do you explain why they would want Democrats in Congress?

As you know Tea Party was created by two main factors spending and size/scope of government. Yes early movement was during Bush and intensified under Obama. Did they support the Tea Party and give a lot of PAC money to candidates. Absolutely. Leaders tho? I don’t think so because the main down fall of Tea Party was they didn’t have any true leaders. Santelli is credited with starting the party but was not the true leader. This was the main reason TP had so many bad candidates (minus Rand Paul IMO and few others).

[bjf123]

Are you calling Putin a liar? See link:https://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/2018/07/16/putin-yes-trump-election-acosta-reax-vpx.cnn.

Didn’t he used to run the KGB, or whatever it’s called today? He’ll say whatever is most beneficial at the time. Had someone asked about President Hillary, I have a funny feeling that he’d say Russia wanted her to win.


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[GoMuskies]

Such a shame what's happening to Oberlin College. I wonder how many dollars in punitives the jury would have awarded them if they weren't capped at $22 million.

https://legalinsurrection.com/2019/06/oberlin-college-hit-with-maximum-punitive-damages-capped-at-22-million-by-law-in-gibsons-bakery-case/

[xudash]

Such a shame what's happening to Oberlin College. I wonder how many dollars in punitives the jury would have awarded them if they weren't capped at $22 million.

https://legalinsurrection.com/2019/06/oberlin-college-hit-with-maximum-punitive-damages-capped-at-22-million-by-law-in-gibsons-bakery-case/

This makes my day.

[GoMuskies]

So Donald Trump is going to live forever AND remain President of the United States the whole time. That's big news heading into the weekend.

[bobbiemcgee]

Glad he wobbled on starting WWIII.

[Caf]

I've said it here before and I'll say it again. I will be happily surprised the day he peacefully transitions power. Call me what you want but I'm completely serious.

[scoscox]

hopefully he goes down swinging. 4 more terms!

[noteggs]

Honestly, we’ve just witnessed what it’s like to not accept the results of an election over the last 2 1/2 years. Sure with Trump, probably won’t be any different except for people will finally call it what it is.

[tacopizza885]

Glad he wobbled on starting WWIII.

FFS, I really don't like the guy, but I am so happy he decided to call off the strike. Let's hope the administration doesn't get their way. We don't need another war.

[bjf123]

I've said it here before and I'll say it again. I will be happily surprised the day he peacefully transitions power. Call me what you want but I'm completely serious.

I have friends who were sure that W was going to declare martial law and refuse to step down at the end of his term. Lather. Rinse. Repeat.


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[Caf]

I have friends who were sure that W was going to declare martial law and refuse to step down at the end of his term. Lather. Rinse. Repeat.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I'm sure they'd agree that this isn't the same. DJT has called elections into question and has made reference to serving more than two terms.

[GoMuskies]

Let me put your mind at ease, Caf. They may need to strap Trump to a dolly to get him out of the Oval in January 2021 or 2025, but if necessary strap him to a dolly and roll him out of there they will.

Also, given age and diet, I think it's much more likely Trump dies in office during his second term than tries to find a way to serve a third.

[STL_XUfan]

Let me put your mind at ease, Caf. They may need to strap Trump to a dolly to get him out of the Oval in January 2021 or 2025, but if necessary strap him to a dolly and roll him out of there they will.

Also, given age and diet, I think it's much more likely Trump dies in office during his second term than tries to find a way to serve a third.

Honestly, I am kinda surprised he is running again. I figured he would boast that after 1 term he accomplished more than anyone else, made America great again and drop the mic out the door claiming the democrats could never beat him. He would then open a new media network or something.

However, I guess there is money to be made by overpaying your own businesses to host your campaign functions.

[GoMuskies]

I don't think this chapter of his life is about money. I believe it's all about ego at this point.

[Mrs. Garrett]

I don't think this chapter of his life is about money. I believe it's all about ego at this point.

I think it's more about staying out of prison. If he is still president nobody can touch him. I really think running for president was initially a publicity stunt. Turns out the joke is on us.

[bjf123]

I'm sure they'd agree that this isn't the same. DJT has called elections into question and has made reference to serving more than two terms.

Even if he keeps saying this, how would he manage to serve a 3rd term? The Constitution won’t allow it. I guess he could run as the VP, get elected on that ticket, and then have the newly elected President resign.


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[paulxu]

Even if he keeps saying this, how would he manage to serve a 3rd term? The Constitution won’t allow it. I guess he could run as the VP, get elected on that ticket, and then have the newly elected President resign.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Good lord, don't give him any ideas.

[GoMuskies]

Today's Twitter Treasure: People explaining concentration camps....to the Holocaust Museum.

[xudash]

So, what do we think of the attached: https://www.yahoo.com/news/civil-war-coming-democratic-party-100010457.html

[GoMuskies]

So, what do we think of the attached: https://www.yahoo.com/news/civil-war-coming-democratic-party-100010457.html

Sounds like someone who has picked her (sorry to assume gender) side in said civil war.

When the Republicans had their little civil war, we got Trump.

[Caf]

Sanders Proposes to Wipe Out All Student Debt With Funds Raised From Wall Street - WSJ (https://www.wsj.com/articles/sanders-proposes-to-wipe-out-all-student-debt-with-funds-raised-from-wall-street-11561391789?mod=hp_listc_pos2)

If you ever want to see Elizabeth Warren look reasonable, put her next to Bernie Sanders.


Mr. Sanders’s plan, which he introduced alongside Reps. Ilhan Omar (D., Minn.) and Pramila Jayapal (D., Wash.) on Monday, would erase all existing student debt, including private and graduate-school loans. Mr. Sanders would pay for the canceled debt with a new tax he is proposing on stock, bond and derivatives trades, which his office projected would raise $2.4 trillion over a decade.


Earlier this spring, Sen. Elizabeth Warren (D., Mass.), who appeals to many of the same liberal voters as Mr. Sanders, unveiled a plan to cancel a large chunk of existing student debt. Her proposal, which would cost $640 billion, would offer assistance to people with incomes up to $100,000 and cap loan forgiveness at $50,000 per person.

[bjf123]

One thing no one is asking Sanders or Warren is what they plan on doing for future student loan debt after they forgive existing debt. Tuition will still be too high and new students will be taking out more loans to pay for their college education. Do they have to pay their loans back, or does the government plan to forgive all future debt, too?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[waggy]

It's amazing the ideas people have for other peoples money.

[STL_XUfan]

One thing no one is asking Sanders or Warren is what they plan on doing for future student loan debt after they forgive existing debt. Tuition will still be too high and new students will be taking out more loans to pay for their college education. Do they have to pay their loans back, or does the government plan to forgive all future debt, too?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Except they are asking, it just didn't make the cut on headlines.

From Sanders:

"Sanders’ legislation pairs the sweeping loan forgiveness proposal with tuition-free public college, which the Vermont independent first made popular during the 2016 presidential campaign. The legislation aims to eliminate tuition at public colleges for all students — and it provides new funding for low-income students to help pay living expenses and tuition at some private institutions that serve large numbers of minority students.
But many students—such as those attending graduate school or private undergraduate colleges—will still need to borrow money to finance their education. Those students, or their parents, would borrow money from the federal government at a much lower cost under Sanders’ plan. His legislation caps the interest rate on all types of new federal student loans at 1.88 percent. The current rate on new federal student loans ranges from about 4.5 percent to about 7 percent, depending on the type of loan."
https://www.politico.com/story/2019/06/24/bernie-sanders-2020-student-loan-debt-forgiveness-plan-1296863

[waggy]

Maybe the universities should give the money back since they apparently didn't do their job.

[Mrs. Garrett]

I honestly have no idea what in state schools vs. private schools cost these days. My son is going into second grade. What I do remember is my brother went to an in state school for less than we went to catholic high school. That includes room and board. They had a $75 per semester book rental fee. That was early 2000s, so I have no idea if it is still the same. But my point is - do some research and figure out what you can afford. Don't spend over $30k a year on school if your goal is to be a social worker.

What's next? Mortgage forgiveness?

[bjf123]

Those students, or their parents, would borrow money from the federal government at a much lower cost under Sanders’ plan. His legislation caps the interest rate on all types of new federal student loans at 1.88 percent. The current rate on new federal student loans ranges from about 4.5 percent to about 7 percent, depending on the type of loan."
https://www.politico.com/story/2019/06/24/bernie-sanders-2020-student-loan-debt-forgiveness-plan-1296863


$200,000 at 1.88% is still a lot of money to pay back. How long before those students would start asking to have their loans wiped out? Maybe make the loans dischargeable in a bankruptcy. I don’t think that’s possible now. That would get the student to think more about the loans.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[STL_XUfan]

$200,000 at 1.88% is still a lot of money to pay back. How long before those students would start asking to have their loans wiped out? Maybe make the loans dischargeable in a bankruptcy. I don’t think that’s possible now. That would get the student to think more about the loans.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I agree completely. While I am not sure if full forgiveness is the right call, significantly lowering the interest rate needs to occur and they should become dischargeable in bankruptcy. Maybe a compromise would be to cancel out all or some of the interest?

I am really concerned about what is going to happen when the Income Base Repayment discharges start happening in a few years. Essentially these people agreed to pay 10% of their discretionary income towards the loan for a period of 25 years (now 20), and the remainder would be forgiven. The issue is that when they are forgiven they will be treated as a cancellation of debt and income towards the borrower. Likely anyone using this program has seen the balance of their loan balloon significantly over the past 25 years.

Further, do not even get me started on the complete and utter bulls*** Betsy Devos is pulling concerning the public service loan forgiveness program. Talk about pulling the rug out from under people.

I have no idea what the right answer is at this point, but this problem is only going to get worse if it is ignored. At some point it needs to be addressed or it will ripple out into the rest of the economy. So while I do not agree with Bernie, I hope it causes Trump and the rest of the Democrats to come up with their own plans.

[bigdiggins]

I honestly have no idea what in state schools vs. private schools cost these days. My son is going into second grade. What I do remember is my brother went to an in state school for less than we went to catholic high school. That includes room and board. They had a $75 per semester book rental fee. That was early 2000s, so I have no idea if it is still the same. But my point is - do some research and figure out what you can afford. Don't spend over $30k a year on school if your goal is to be a social worker.

What's next? Mortgage forgiveness?

It's not just about being a social worker. You know what the difference in starting salary for a nurse that graduated from X vs UC is...$0. You know what the difference in starting salary is for an accountant that graduated from Wright State vs UD...$0. If you want to pay more for the experience of a private school, there is something about them you value, than great go there. However, don't then whine that it cost too much.

[GoMuskies]

I am really concerned about what is going to happen when the Income Base Repayment discharges start happening in a few years. Essentially these people agreed to pay 10% of their discretionary income towards the loan for a period of 25 years (now 20), and the remainder would be forgiven. The issue is that when they are forgiven they will be treated as a cancellation of debt and income towards the borrower. Likely anyone using this program has seen the balance of their loan balloon significantly over the past 25 years.


So what's the problem? "Only" 75-80% of the loan ends up getting discharged because tax needs to get paid. Seems like a pretty sweet deal.

[STL_XUfan]

So what's the problem? "Only" 75-80% of the loan ends up getting discharged because tax needs to get paid. Seems like a pretty sweet deal.

I mean on a $100,000.00 loan at 7.5% (Grad unsubsidized in 2008) in which you paid $300 a month for 25 years, the amount of your loan forgiveness would be $383,000.00. So you would have paid $90,000.00 towards your loan and just owe in a lump sum on your taxes that year between $76,600 and $95,750. I am sure they will have that lying around to make a lump sum payment.

[GoMuskies]

That's still a fantastic deal, by the way. If you can't manage to take advantage of that deal...

[STL_XUfan]

If you can't manage to take advantage of that deal...

You made a risky investment when you were 18 that didn't pan out and should be allowed protection under the bankruptcy laws?

[GoMuskies]

Under those terms, that's not a risky investment.

[noteggs]

Sanders Proposes to Wipe Out All Student Debt With Funds Raised From Wall Street - WSJ (https://www.wsj.com/articles/sanders-proposes-to-wipe-out-all-student-debt-with-funds-raised-from-wall-street-11561391789?mod=hp_listc_pos2)

If you ever want to see Elizabeth Warren look reasonable, put her next to Bernie Sanders.

I really think this is her new campaign strategy. They saw some Sanders supporters loving all this free stuff he was promising and the moderates saw him as bat shit crazy. Warren’s campaign realized giving away free stuff sells but wanted to make it somewhat more palatable for the moderates. IMO, this has changed the direction of her campaign and making a surge in her polls numbers. Of course it doesn’t hurt that Joe is being Joe.

Will there ever be a a time when the government runs out of things to give away?

[GoMuskies]

I think someone asked some version of this already, but if colleges are the ones who got the money that is the subject of the debt forgiveness in the first place, why are we taxing Wall Street to fund the debt forgiveness and not finding a way to get it from oh, I don't know, colleges?

[Caf]

I think someone asked some version of this already, but if colleges are the ones who got the money that is the subject of the debt forgiveness in the first place, why are we taxing Wall Street to fund the debt forgiveness and not finding a way to get it from oh, I don't know, colleges?

Agreed - this specific Sanders front drives me nuts.

I still see no actual solution to any of this being proposed by the Dems or the GOP. Any plan to curb student debt going forward that does not include denying loans and allowing borrowers to default on loans is a sham. Let capitalism work and deny kids from getting mountains of capital for ridiculous, and ridiculously expensive, degrees.

[bjf123]

This is more political correctness than pure politics, but are you fucking kidding me?!?! NBA owners are no longer called owners because of the slave connotation. I’m sorry, but this is insane!!!!!!

https://nypost.com/2019/06/24/adam-silver-nba-stopped-using-term-owner-years-ago/


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[noteggs]

Not a big fan of Rolling Stones mag anymore, however this is pretty funny. Might try this drinking game tonight.

https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-features/the-official-democratic-debate-drinking-games-851764/

[UCGRAD4X]

This is more political correctness than pure politics, but are you fucking kidding me?!?! NBA owners are no longer called owners because of the slave connotation. I’m sorry, but this is insane!!!!!!

https://nypost.com/2019/06/24/adam-silver-nba-stopped-using-term-owner-years-ago/


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

How stupid is that. Why can't they just explain that they OWN the franchise, not the players. The players are FREE to leave for a better deal, get paid obscene amounts of money.

The players CHOOSE to play for this team/owner and may sign a multi-year contract AT THEIR DISCRETION. This is not different from most employer/ employee relationships (except they are playing a game with yearly earnings that most of us aren't likely to make in a lifetime, with sighing bonuses, guaranteed contracts and super benefits and shoe contracts endorsements etc.).

How in the hell are they enslaved in any way?

I read today about a online knitting circle block that has outlawed Conservative speech (See; Trump/policy support - as determined by....?) and banning a separate subset conservative group. Talk about slavery - getting opinions suppressed and only being allowed participation if you agree with certain ideas - even expressed with unchecked vitriol.

https://www.dailysignal.com/2019/06/26/knitting-site-banning-pro-trump-speech-just-latest-example-of-left-squelching-speech/

And an Australian Rugby player kicked off the team for expressing religious opinion about homosexuality (and drunkenness, adultery, etc). Voiding three years of a four year contract and a certain spot on the world cup in Japan. When he started a GoFundMe page to help with legal battle - that websight kicked him out.

https://www.dw.com/en/australian-rugby-star-israel-folau-faces-sack-over-anti-gay-outburst/a-48286386

I don't agree with his message (such as; only God can determine who goes up and who goes down and His Son certainly suggests ways that might put us in peril, but His mercy, grace and forgiveness are infinite.). But I do support his right to say it.

Political correctness has indeed run amok, especially at the corporate level, particularly social media mega giants where free and open expressions and inclusiveness are their mantra.

Inclusion by exclusion. How Orwellian.

[scoscox]

Is governor really any less offensive than owner?

[Lloyd Braun]

Technically the players are drafted by a team that controls their rights for several years but the point mostly remains...

[bobbiemcgee]

ger·ry·man·der
[ˈjerēˌmandər]
VERB
gerrymandering (present participle)
manipulate the boundaries of (an electoral constituency) so as to favor one party or class.

Always thought this was bad but apparently a good thing now.

[Xville]

Watching these debates the past two nights have reaffirmed my belief that there is zero way trump is losing to any of these idiots unless the economy just suddenly bottoms out.

[bjf123]

I haven’t watched either one, but the snippets I’ve heard and read make me tend to agree with you. The majority of the candidates seem to be trying to “out Liberal” each other pandering to their base to get the nomination. I just don’t see that playing well outside of the coasts and a few other states. Decriminalizing illegality entering the country, forgiving student loans, “free” college, “free” healthcare, etc., make for great sound bites, but just aren’t realistic.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[UCGRAD4X]

But they will make a decided pivot right once they are nominated, claiming to be more centrist, having secured the base, who will have little choice but to vote for them.

[Xville]

It is simply amazing to me that anyone would vote for these people.

Free education----who is going to pay for this and how? I have to pay for rich kids to go to college? Can't Aunt Becky take care of this for me?
Medicare for all----many on medicare have to have supplemental insurance. This is not a great program to point to in order to "fix" the problem. You want a bunch of hospitals and doctor's offices to close, go to this plan.
Healthcare to Illegals-----holy F$&k
Kill babies

[Caf]

It is simply amazing to me that anyone would vote for these people.

Free education----who is going to pay for this and how? I have to pay for rich kids to go to college? Can't Aunt Becky take care of this for me?
Medicare for all----many on medicare have to have supplemental insurance. This is not a great program to point to in order to "fix" the problem. You want a bunch of hospitals and doctor's offices to close, go to this plan.
Healthcare to Illegals-----holy F$&k
Kill babies

Thanks for the laugh!

[bjf123]

Medicare for all----many on medicare have to have supplemental insurance. This is not a great program to point to in order to "fix" the problem. You want a bunch of hospitals and doctor's offices to close, go to this plan.

If they think Medicare is so great, I think they should write legislation to allow members of Congress to permanently opt in to that and out of the top of the line coverage they have now. I have a funny feeling they’d never give up what they have. Bernie might, but not the rest of them.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Juice]

I haven’t watched either one, but the snippets I’ve heard and read make me tend to agree with you. The majority of the candidates seem to be trying to “out Liberal” each other pandering to their base to get the nomination. I just don’t see that playing well outside of the coasts and a few other states. Decriminalizing illegality entering the country, forgiving student loans, “free” college, “free” healthcare, etc., make for great sound bites, but just aren’t realistic.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I didn't watch but my understanding at least one but maybe more advocated raising taxes on the middle class. That will play well.

[noteggs]

I didn't watch but my understanding at least one but maybe more advocated raising taxes on the middle class. That will play well.

That was Bernie who was pushed into saying he would. Think he’s toast at this point because others have taken his positions and know how say it with a smile on their face or more empathetic. Think they’re playing into Trumps hand by talking about immigration especially with free healthcare for illegals. Talk about an incentive to come here illegally. If break our laws, will reward you.

[Caf]

That was Bernie who was pushed into saying he would. Think he’s toast at this point because others have taken his positions and know how say it with a smile on their face or more empathetic. Think they’re playing into Trumps hand by talking about immigration especially with free healthcare for illegals. Talk about an incentive to come here illegally. If break our laws, will reward you.

To clarify, those who believe in medicare-for-all/single payer believe we should cover and pay for undocumented migrants. Those who believe in the obamacare route support undocumented migrants being able to pay for it through the system.

[scoscox]

But they will make a decided pivot right once they are nominated, claiming to be more centrist, having secured the base, who will have little choice but to vote for them.

they have to. half the things said in these debates is just insane. it is difficult to watch them for longer than a few minutes. they're just a complete trainwreck

[bjf123]

they have to. half the things said in these debates is just insane. it is difficult to watch them for longer than a few minutes. they're just a complete trainwreck

That will just make it easier for Trump to bring up all the sound bites of what they’re saying now and pointing out all the giveaways and tax hikes needed to pay for them, the soft board security, etc. Those things might sound fine in NY and CA, but won’t play well in flyover country.


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[Xville]

It is amazing how out of touch with reality politicians have become. I feel it was different back in the 80s and 90s, but maybe I was naive to it...either that or it is just more apparent now due to the 24 hour news cycle.

[UCGRAD4X]

That will just make it easier for Trump to bring up all the sound bites of what they’re saying now and pointing out all the giveaways and tax hikes needed to pay for them, the soft board security, etc. Those things might sound fine in NY and CA, but won’t play well in flyover country.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I firmly believe there will be a day of fiscal reckoning in those states as well that will make any sane voter question these irresponsible policies. If there are any sane voters left. Come to think of it, I'm not sure there are enough left now to make any difference anyway.

When are the big corporations going to start running from these financially oppressive climates?

[noteggs]

To clarify, those who believe in medicare-for-all/single payer believe we should cover and pay for undocumented migrants. Those who believe in the obamacare route support undocumented migrants being able to pay for it through the system.

Good point and distinction. Serious question CAF as I’m trying to figure this out. When you say for thosewho believe in Obamacare for undocumented, are you referring to candidates or people in general who support it? Not sure this was the original intent from the Democrats when it was rolled out. When Obama discussed this during his 2009 speech to joint session of Congress, he said Obamacare was not for undocumented receiving healthcare which led to the infamous Joe Wilson outburst “you lie.” Can I assume this stance has changed?

[Caf]

Good point and distinction. Serious question CAF as I’m trying to figure this out. When you say for thosewho believe in Obamacare for undocumented, are you referring to candidates or people in general who support it? Not sure this was the original intent from the Democrats when it was rolled out. When Obama discussed this during his 2009 speech to joint session of Congress, he said Obamacare was not for undocumented receiving healthcare which led to the infamous Joe Wilson outburst “you lie.” Can I assume this stance has changed?

Candidates. Mayor Pete specifically said they'd be able to buy into it. I'd be shocked if Biden wouldn't say the same, though I haven't been following close enough to be sure. I honestly don't know the names of the other candidates who want to keep private insurance and Obamacare haha.

One thing that confused me during the debate was they all said they support "universal health care". I thought that meant single payer, but apparently it just means everyone has insurance/access to it.

[bobbiemcgee]

Hickenlooper loves capitalism, private insurance and supports Obamacare. He started and owned a brewery in a marijuana state. He took his mom to see Deep Throat. What else do you need?

[GoMuskies]

And he's polling at like negative 5% with the Dems.

[bobbiemcgee]

And he's polling at like negative 5% with the Dems.

Of course.

[boozehound]

I think someone asked some version of this already, but if colleges are the ones who got the money that is the subject of the debt forgiveness in the first place, why are we taxing Wall Street to fund the debt forgiveness and not finding a way to get it from oh, I don't know, colleges?


Agreed - this specific Sanders front drives me nuts.

I still see no actual solution to any of this being proposed by the Dems or the GOP. Any plan to curb student debt going forward that does not include denying loans and allowing borrowers to default on loans is a sham. Let capitalism work and deny kids from getting mountains of capital for ridiculous, and ridiculously expensive, degrees.

This is a tough one. College costs have gone crazy since the 1980's, and it's hard not to see the availability of nearly unlimited capital for students to borrow as playing a major role in that. Now that we are in the midst of it, it's a tough one to solve. I do think that the Universities should be forced to cut (mostly administrative) costs. I can't cost that much more to run a College now than it did 20 years ago. Ultimately affordable state school tuition would seem to be an answer to a lot of the problem, but students also have to exercise fiscal responsibility and major in fields of study in which there are jobs.

I wonder if we will get to a point where companies will loan different amounts of money for different fields of study. For example: If I'm lending some one $250K for Medical School (assuming that they graduate) I'm very likely to get repaid. If I'm loaning someone $250K to study sociology at Amherst I would think I'm much less likely to be repaid.

[Caf]

Nike Nixes ‘Betsy Ross Flag’ Sneaker After Colin Kaepernick Intervenes - WSJ (https://www.wsj.com/articles/nike-nixes-betsy-ross-flag-sneaker-after-colin-kaepernick-intervenes-11562024126)

Ok this one is insane.

Arizona Governor Pulls State Aid for Nike Plant Over Betsy Ross-Colin Kaepernick Controversy - WSJ (https://www.wsj.com/articles/arizona-governor-pulls-state-aid-for-nike-plant-over-betsy-ross-colin-kaepernick-controversy-11562072719?mod=hp_lead_pos3)

And to be fair this is also pretty insane.



Nike plans to invest $185 million to open a manufacturing facility in Goodyear, Ariz., that would employ about 500 people, according to city records. On Monday, the Goodyear City Council approved a package of incentives that would reimburse the company about $1 million in planning fees and about $4,000 per full-time employee Nike hires, according to city records.

[GoMuskies]

I'm ready to make my endorsement in the Democratic Primary. I'd probably be okay with Biden winning, and I might even vote for him (not that my Kansas vote matters), but the only Democrat I would actively support is Andrew Yang. His being the only candidate to come out and unequivocally denounce the beating of Andy Ngo in Portland by Antifa thugs over the weekend (with so much of the Left being somewhere between "I loved it" to "Yeah, it shouldn't have happened, but he kind of deserved it") put me over the top.

[boozehound]

Nike Nixes ‘Betsy Ross Flag’ Sneaker After Colin Kaepernick Intervenes - WSJ (https://www.wsj.com/articles/nike-nixes-betsy-ross-flag-sneaker-after-colin-kaepernick-intervenes-11562024126)

Ok this one is insane.

Arizona Governor Pulls State Aid for Nike Plant Over Betsy Ross-Colin Kaepernick Controversy - WSJ (https://www.wsj.com/articles/arizona-governor-pulls-state-aid-for-nike-plant-over-betsy-ross-colin-kaepernick-controversy-11562072719?mod=hp_lead_pos3)

And to be fair this is also pretty insane.

Insane. Totally insane. If Nike wants to give Colin Kaepernick veto power over their shoe designs they should at least do it before they ship them out to stores. They can put him on payroll. Director of "Wokeness" or some such bullshit.

[Juice]

I'm ready to make my endorsement in the Democratic Primary. I'd probably be okay with Biden winning, and I might even vote for him (not that my Kansas vote matters), but the only Democrat I would actively support is Andrew Yang. His being the only candidate to come out and unequivocally denounce the beating of Andy Ngo in Portland by Antifa thugs over the weekend (with so much of the Left being somewhere between "I loved it" to "Yeah, it shouldn't have happened, but he kind of deserved it") put me over the top.

Usually Democrats are all for defending gay minorities but not in the case of Andy...

[Juice]

https://www.cnn.com/2019/06/27/business/nike-china-japan-hong-kong/index.html

Nike doesn't like historical American flags but likes China's oppression of Hong Kong I guess


Hong Kong (CNN Business)Nike has stopped selling some products in China after a fashion designer's support for protests in Hong Kong sparked a social media backlash.

The US retail giant said in a statement Thursday that it had decided to remove some of its goods "based on feedback from Chinese consumers."
"We have withdrawn from China a small number of products that were designed by a collaborator," a Nike (NKE) spokesperson told CNN Business.
The company did not respond when asked to provide more details.

[Juice]

Nike Nixes ‘Betsy Ross Flag’ Sneaker After Colin Kaepernick Intervenes - WSJ (https://www.wsj.com/articles/nike-nixes-betsy-ross-flag-sneaker-after-colin-kaepernick-intervenes-11562024126)

Ok this one is insane.

Arizona Governor Pulls State Aid for Nike Plant Over Betsy Ross-Colin Kaepernick Controversy - WSJ (https://www.wsj.com/articles/arizona-governor-pulls-state-aid-for-nike-plant-over-betsy-ross-colin-kaepernick-controversy-11562072719?mod=hp_lead_pos3)

And to be fair this is also pretty insane.

The shoes are now going for $2,000 on Stock X

https://stockx.com/nike-air-max-1-usa-2019

[noteggs]

Eric Swalwell also condemned those actions against Ngo. Looks like two others at the rally were attacked and bloodied by Antifa. Apparently those two were trying to protect a gay man (to be fair and at this point, that claim came from those beaten). Question is when will the candidates call out Antifa.

https://dailycaller.com/2019/07/02/swalwell-yang-antifa-ngo-condemnation/

Nonetheless, give Yang and Swalwell a lot of credit for condemning violence on a reporter.

[paulxu]

if some of those shoes actually shipped, they'll be collectors items fetching a good dollar.

Maybe it was a marketing ploy?

[Lamont Sanford]

if some of those shoes actually shipped, they'll be collectors items fetching a good dollar.

Maybe it was a marketing ploy?

Pretty sure I read that the shoes had already shipped to retailers when Nike basically recalled them. I didn't know that Colin Kaepernick carried such clout with Nike. Sad.

[Caf]

Pretty sure I read that the shoes had already shipped to retailers when Nike basically recalled them. I didn't know that Colin Kaepernick carried such clout with Nike. Sad.

It is crazy he has that kind of pull. I don't envy Nike having to make these calls. It's definitely a case of damned if you do, damned if you don't.

[GoMuskies]

Prediction: This sick fucker Epstein's fall is going to become an enormous political scandal that ruins many Democrats and Republicans alike. Acosta is probably the first to fall, but I suspect his actions will be among the least bad of those who ultimately go down.

[noteggs]

Not sure about Acosta getting off easily, Democrats are already saying his bad deeds are on same level with the scumbag Epstein. Unfortunately this is going to be so politicized, people are going to lose site of Epstein’s heinous acts. Like you said, both parties are going to take a hit and I say good.

[xu82]

Is this where we go to talk about the Women’s World Cup win?

[GoMuskies]

Is this where we go to talk about the Women’s World Cup win?

God damned, please keep all soccer in its own thread that I can ignore.

[waggy]

God damned, please keep all soccer in its own thread that I can ignore.

:smile: Soccer isn't even welcome in the cesspool!

[paulxu]

I hope anyone who was involved with Epstein in messing with underage girls goes to jail.

[GoMuskies]

I hope anyone who was involved with Epstein in messing with underage girls goes to jail.

Agree. And I think a whole lot of powerful people from all sorts of political persuasions were involved with this guy.

[UCGRAD4X]

I hope anyone who was involved with Epstein in messing with underage girls goes to jail.

...and not allowed out six days a week to go to "work"!

[JTG]

I hope anyone who was involved with Epstein in messing with underage girls goes to jail.

Bill Clinton took 20+ trips on Epsteins Lolita Express.

[GoMuskies]

Bill Clinton took 20+ trips on Epsteins Lolita Express.

Yes, Bill may finally get his here and finish off the Clintons. There may even be something damaging enough to knock Trump out of 2020. But those are only going to be the tip of the iceberg. This rich, powerful guy got away with murder, essentially. The mob is going to be out for the blood of the powerful connected to this (understandably), and they're going to get it.

[xu82]

God damned, please keep all soccer in its own thread that I can ignore.

Sorry, that doesn’t feel fair to me. The keeper barely moved on that PK, and that wasn’t much of a PK to me, but it counts to get us to 1-0 in the Finals. Could have been easily stopped if she just guessed the correct side. My older son loved playing keeper, but the younger son was more stricker or (later) sweeper. He loved low left on PK’s, and we traveled playing a lot of the same teams.....but they never seemed to catch on.


I actually learned to enjoy soccer as the kids grew up. Less bitching about calls than hoops, less fear of injury than football, less boring than baseball and weightlifting. We did suffer a broken arm in soccer, but all things considered it was better than the options.

For those who want to bring politics into every other thread, maybe I’ll leave you a recipe here. :-)

[smileyy]

May Jeffrey Epstein burn, not in hell, but literally. And take Donald Trump and Bill Clinton with him.

[boozehound]

Yes, Bill may finally get his here and finish off the Clintons. There may even be something damaging enough to knock Trump out of 2020. But those are only going to be the tip of the iceberg. This rich, powerful guy got away with murder, essentially. The mob is going to be out for the blood of the powerful connected to this (understandably), and they're going to get it.

I hope you are right, but a big part of me wonders if the 'Mob' in this case will just devolve into arguing party line politics like everything else in this country. The Dems will think their guys are innocent and Republicans will maintain the same. Where that ultimately nets out, I'm not sure.

[Caf]

Prediction: This sick fucker Epstein's fall is going to become an enormous political scandal that ruins many Democrats and Republicans alike. Acosta is probably the first to fall, but I suspect his actions will be among the least bad of those who ultimately go down.

I think you're right. I'm really interested to see what role his asset management business played. The guy made a crap ton of money but no one knows how or can back his performance/skill. I've seen some theories that he got people involved with underage girls and then bribed them into investing. That seems like a bit of fiction, but something terrible is there for sure.

[STL_XUfan]

I think you're right. I'm really interested to see what role his asset management business played. The guy made a crap ton of money but no one knows how or can back his performance/skill. I've seen some theories that he got people involved with underage girls and then bribed them into investing. That seems like a bit of fiction, but something terrible is there for sure.

There is enough red meat here on both sides of the aisle that conspiracy theorist are going to have a field day.

[GoMuskies]

You've got to admit it would be a certain kind of hilarious if establishment politicians all over the left and right get tangled up in this and are disgraced....and Donald Trump comes out of it clean as a whistle.

[STL_XUfan]

You've got to admit it would be a certain kind of hilarious if establishment politicians all over the left and right get tangled up in this and are disgraced....and Donald Trump comes out of it clean as a whistle.

Except you know in his gloating tweet he would inadvertently implicate himself. "Crooked & Depraved Democrats don't even know how to cover up their scandals. SAD! Your favorite president would never be so dumb as to leave behind incriminating evidence. #AlwaysPayInCash"

[noteggs]

I can’t stand identity politics. Unfortunately the Democrats may be using it on their own. Nice to hear Trump stick up for Pelosi and say she’s not a racist even tho she said Trump is trying to make America white again a few days ago. Never thought I would hear Trump being the better person in the room. Refreshing

[Muskie in dayton]

I canÂ’t stand identity politics. Unfortunately the Democrats may be using it on their own. Nice to hear Trump stick up for Pelosi and say sheÂ’s not a racist even tho she said Trump is trying to make America white again a few days ago. Never thought I would hear Trump being the better person in the room. Refreshing

The “racist” accusation is thrown around so much anymore it’s become like “communist” in the 1950’s. Frankly it means nothing, and reflects much more on the person saying it.

[bjf123]

The “racist” accusation is thrown around so much anymore it’s become like “communist” in the 1950’s. Frankly it means nothing, and reflects much more on the person saying it.

Agreed. It seems that whenever you disagree with a minority, the racist label comes out, instead of taking a critical look at the positions being espoused. In this case, Pelosi’s criticism of AOC and the other three (did I read that they’re calling themselves The Squad?) has nothing to do with their race or gender. Their positions are not helping their Party, but they can’t see it.


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[Juice]

Agreed. It seems that whenever you disagree with a minority, the racist label comes out, instead of taking a critical look at the positions being espoused. In this case, Pelosi’s criticism of AOC and the other three (did I read that they’re calling themselves The Squad?) has nothing to do with their race or gender. Their positions are not helping their Party, but they can’t see it.


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They're eating their own. It's hilarious.

https://twitter.com/HouseDemocrats/status/1149856308801286148

[UCGRAD4X]

They're eating their own. It's hilarious.

https://twitter.com/HouseDemocrats/status/1149856308801286148

"I don't think people have to be personally racist to enable a racist system."

What does that even mean?

She's racist by default no matter what she does or says simply by working in a "racist system"?

The comments turn to "tearing families apart" at the border. [nothing to see here - oh look - here's something shiny]

That could be used as an excuse for anyone with a similar accusation levied against them.

I also love how they refer to illegal immigrants as simply immigrants or migrants or 'foreign born'. I have never yest seen a main stream media outlet use the work illegal or refer to the ADDITIONAL crimes that are committed, such as child/human trafficking, drugs, assaults, theft, rape and murder.

I did hear one, to their credit, admit that Trump has deported far less than the last four presidents. Of course, they said it as a negative in that Trump was not fulfilling his campaign promise. Much of this fall to the immigration policy that congress refuses to do anything about except complain, vilify, assign blame and volatile rhetoric. They might trot out an individual situation - who only wants a part of the American dream and to live in peace, without fear and take care of their family. Then it's "My grandmother was an immigrant" or "We should all be deported since we are all immigrants." "This is America and we don't tear apart families" (which, in fact, we do when we sent CRIMINALS to jail/prison).

Again, the word "ILLEGAL" rarely, if ever, enters the conversation.

I would ask anyone who complains about the situation - which is horrific - and ask, "What is your solution?"

[Juice]

"I don't think people have to be personally racist to enable a racist system."

What does that even mean?

She's racist by default no matter what she does or says simply by working in a "racist system"?

The comments turn to "tearing families apart" at the border. [nothing to see here - oh look - here's something shiny]

That could be used as an excuse for anyone with a similar accusation levied against them.

I also love how they refer to illegal immigrants as simply immigrants or migrants or 'foreign born'. I have never yest seen a main stream media outlet use the work illegal or refer to the ADDITIONAL crimes that are committed, such as child/human trafficking, drugs, assaults, theft, rape and murder.

I did hear one, to their credit, admit that Trump has deported far less than the last four presidents. Of course, they said it as a negative in that Trump was not fulfilling his campaign promise. Much of this fall to the immigration policy that congress refuses to do anything about except complain, vilify, assign blame and volatile rhetoric. They might trot out an individual situation - who only wants a part of the American dream and to live in peace, without fear and take care of their family. Then it's "My grandmother was an immigrant" or "We should all be deported since we are all immigrants." "This is America and we don't tear apart families" (which, in fact, we do when we sent CRIMINALS to jail/prison).

Again, the word "ILLEGAL" rarely, if ever, enters the conversation.

I would ask anyone who complains about the situation - which is horrific - and ask, "What is your solution?"

They want to let them all in. Give them everything, and basically buy votes.

[bjf123]

They want to let them all in. Give them everything, and basically buy votes.

Ding! Ding! Ding! We have a winner!


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[Caf]

They want to let them all in. Give them everything, and basically buy votes.

Ding! Ding! Ding! We have a winner!


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You guys actually believe any approach that isn't DJT's is a plot to get votes? There is no valid alternative approach? This is a complex issue that has dogged the federal government for decades, but now it's suddenly simple I guess.

[Juice]

You guys actually believe any approach that isn't DJT's is a plot to get votes? There is no valid alternative approach? This is a complex issue that has dogged the federal government for decades, but now it's suddenly simple I guess.

This approach on dealing with immigration was actually the same as Obama's too but somehow no one cared until now.

We've literally got people raising the Mexican flag on our soil at a government building.

[bjf123]

You guys actually believe any approach that isn't DJT's is a plot to get votes? There is no valid alternative approach? This is a complex issue that has dogged the federal government for decades, but now it's suddenly simple I guess.

Not at all. I truly believe the Left’s soft border stance, combined with giving drivers licenses to illegal aliens, and voter registration with your driver’s license renewal without proving you’re a US citizen, is purely a voter grab. Of course, if someone questions the validity of any votes, or asks for proof of voter eligibility, the cry of voter suppression is screamed from the rooftops.


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[xudash]

Not at all. I truly believe the Left’s soft border stance, combined with giving drivers licenses to illegal aliens, and voter registration with your driver’s license renewal without proving you’re a US citizen, is purely a voter grab. Of course, if someone questions the validity of any votes, or asks for proof of voter eligibility, the cry of voter suppression is screamed from the rooftops.


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Exactly.

Why does the left argue against practices that should help to truly validate who is and is not a legitimate voter?

[Muskie in dayton]

This approach on dealing with immigration was actually the same as Obama's too but somehow no one cared until now.

It’s exactly like Federal spending under Obama. Reagan and Bush spent like drunk sailors for years, then suddenly when Obama did it,
the Republicans and Tea baggers acted like it was the end of the world. Partisan politics sucks. All Republicans and Democrats need to burn in Hell. Be an American and we’ll all be better off.

[noteggs]

The more I hear about Epstein situation the more it becomes whacked. First, how does he get a job on Wall Street without a college degree. Better yet, how did he get a high school teaching job without it? Starting to think what I did right or wrong. Thinking right but what the hell!

[paulxu]

You gotta love the expired Saudi passport with a fictitious name.

[bjf123]

You gotta love the expired Saudi passport with a fictitious name.

I certainly hope the judge sees that and denies bail. If he gets bail, he’s gone.


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[GoMuskies]

Andrew Yang is up to 5% in the latest poll, putting him in 6th place. Hoping the momentum continues...

[chico]

Andrew Yang is up to 5% in the latest poll, putting him in 6th place. Hoping the momentum continues...

I can't wait to start receiving my monthly $1,000 check in the mail.

[GoMuskies]

Fuck, Andrew Yang just Tweeted a picture of himself with CodePink loonballs. Guess I'm out of the YangGang.

[boozehound]

Fuck, Andrew Yang just Tweeted a picture of himself with CodePink loonballs. Guess I'm out of the YangGang.

I have no idea what any of this means.

[Blue Blooded-05]

I can't wait to start receiving my monthly $1,000 check in the mail.

Every time I hear about Yang’s Freedom Dividend, I think back to when GW Bush gave everyone that one time stimulus payment during the 2008 recession. Argosy Casino immediately began running ads in the Cincinnati metro area tempting people to gamble it away.

Really says a lot about the “average” American citizen...

Sadly, if this ever gets passed, I’d invest heavily in the vice stocks of alcohol, tobacco, gambling and weed (if it is open for recreational use in OH).

[Caf]

Every time I hear about Yang’s Freedom Dividend, I think back to when GW Bush gave everyone that one time stimulus payment during the 2008 recession. Argosy Casino immediately began running ads in the Cincinnati metro area tempting people to gamble it away.

Really says a lot about the “average” American citizen...

Sadly, if this ever gets passed, I’d invest heavily in the vice stocks of alcohol, tobacco, gambling and weed (if it is open for recreational use in OH).

So because a casino ran ads it's safe to say the average American citizen would have spent helicopter money on vices?

[xubrew]

Every time I hear about Yang’s Freedom Dividend, I think back to when GW Bush gave everyone that one time stimulus payment during the 2008 recession. Argosy Casino immediately began running ads in the Cincinnati metro area tempting people to gamble it away.

Really says a lot about the “average” American citizen...

Sadly, if this ever gets passed, I’d invest heavily in the vice stocks of alcohol, tobacco, gambling and weed (if it is open for recreational use in OH).

Trickle Up economics.

[GoMuskies]

Well, you can be DAMNED sure my Freedom Dividend is going to vices!

[UCGRAD4X]

Well, you can be DAMNED sure my Freedom Dividend is going to vices!

a small trickle in a big pot

[xudash]

Who is John Galt?

[noteggs]

Who is John Galt?

Indeed