Politics Thread

[X-man]

I read the article. It says: 1) Kristol and others pushed for her as VP and 2) there was a threatened floor fight over Lieberman if McCain picked him.

The article does not say 1) that Kristol and others forced McCain to take her or 2) there would be a floor fight at the convention if McCain didn't pick Palin.

So, the article supports what I posted. It doesn't support what you posted.
The article also says repeatedly that Kristol and his buddies fell in love with Palin on the visits to Alaska and the cruise. And it is clear that McCain's supposed choice (Lieberman) wasn't going to fly with them. Because there were no other options except Palin, as the article also makes clear, Palin was it. And that nomination was imposed on McCain because he (1) knew nothing about her, and (2) had no chemistry with her once he did get acquainted with her.

[ArizonaXUGrad]

I think the polarization started in 2000 when the Supreme Court voted to end the recounts in Florida. Regardless of who won, you were going to have a large group of voters who felt disenfranchised in the state of Florida and a whole ton of voters across the nation who wouldn't be happy. In hindsight, they should have just left the recount alone and let it play out.

Couple that with the largely unpopular Iraq fiasco and the lies used to justify it, and you have a huge number of people now who hate one party for the correct or incorrect reason. It also didn't help that Bush and company crushed the economy and bailed out the criminal banks with socialism yet won't or really doesn't want to help the American people.

People complain about Obama, but he was actually pretty average or just a bit better than average president. The discord he experienced and stoked started a decade earlier.

[XU 87]

The article also says repeatedly that Kristol and his buddies fell in love with Palin on the visits to Alaska and the cruise. And it is clear that McCain's supposed choice (Lieberman) wasn't going to fly with them. Because there were no other options except Palin, as the article also makes clear, Palin was it. And that nomination was imposed on McCain because he (1) knew nothing about her, and (2) had no chemistry with her once he did get acquainted with her.

When you post these articles, do you realize we can actually read them and see if they say what you claim they say? The article does not mention or insinuate that Kristol et. al. 1) "forced" Palin on McCain 2) that they threatened a floor fight at the convention if he didn't pick Palin and 3) this floor fight would "doom" his candidacy.

You're engaging in historical fiction.

[noteggs]

I think the polarization started in 2000 when the Supreme Court voted to end the recounts in Florida. Regardless of who won, you were going to have a large group of voters who felt disenfranchised in the state of Florida and a whole ton of voters across the nation who wouldn't be happy. In hindsight, they should have just left the recount alone and let it play out.

Couple that with the largely unpopular Iraq fiasco and the lies used to justify it, and you have a huge number of people now who hate one party for the correct or incorrect reason. It also didn't help that Bush and company crushed the economy and bailed out the criminal banks with socialism yet won't or really doesn't want to help the American people.

People complain about Obama, but he was actually pretty average or just a bit better than average president. The discord he experienced and stoked started a decade earlier.

Ok now I’m confused (sorry folk’s stuff just happens when you get old.) Let me first say, government should should not be in the business of bailing out businesses (Wow, think I just made CAF’s same point a few pages ago, but he should have said “Republicans and some Libertarian’s”. Haha). When you say Bush and company, does that “company” mean Obama? TARP was initiated by the Bush administration and Senate approved with a yes vote from Obama. When the last $350 billion (of the $700 billion approved) was to be used, the Obama administration was in charge and lobbied Congress to approve to release funds.

You said on Bush “the criminal banks with socialism yet won't or really doesn't want to help the American people”. When it came to his first stimulus package in early 2008 (150 billion), the feds gave tax rebates to middle and low income individuals with bipartisan support. Personally, I didn’t like any of the extra spending (sure some of it was needed but I’m not smart enough to figure it out) and think Bush W was only a good president right after 9/11 and not when he got us into the Iraq war.

I didn’t even touch on Obama’s $800 billion stimulus package (except for now).

[ArizonaXUGrad]

Ok now I’m confused (sorry folk’s stuff just happens when you get old.) Let me first say, government should should not be in the business of bailing out businesses (Wow, think I just made CAF’s same point a few pages ago, but he should have said “Republicans and some Libertarian’s”. Haha). When you say Bush and company, does that “company” mean Obama? TARP was initiated by the Bush administration and Senate approved with a yes vote from Obama. When the last $350 billion (of the $700 billion approved) was to be used, the Obama administration was in charge and lobbied Congress to approve to release funds.

You said on Bush “the criminal banks with socialism yet won't or really doesn't want to help the American people”. When it came to his first stimulus package in early 2008 (150 billion), the feds gave tax rebates to middle and low income individuals with bipartisan support. Personally, I didn’t like any of the extra spending (sure some of it was needed but I’m not smart enough to figure it out) and think Bush W was only a good president right after 9/11 and not when he got us into the Iraq war.

I didn’t even touch on Obama’s $800 billion stimulus package (except for now).

If you get into Obama's spending, you must first see that Bush handed him a US economy that was literally day-to-day. Yes Obama was way too Wall Street for my taste, but he got us out of that quagmire (one of which might be in our near future). Obama got them back by putting Warren in charge of monitoring the spending of that TARP money. We all remember the bonus scandal, thank you now Senator Warren.

Bush was an abject failure as a president. He cut taxes, but he never figured out to balance it. He made it harder to declare bankruptcy, got us in two never ending wars, and go ahead and toss in No Child Left Behind which was just awful. No, Bush was terrible and Obama was actually pretty average. Before you complain about government spending and Obama, remember he inherited a DEPRESSION not a recession. What else was he going to do to correct that?

Bush vs Obama, another little last measure Bush had record number of people without health insurance. Obama, ACA was/is terrible, but hey at least people have insurance and it dramatically lowered the uninsured total. We also finally dumped the asinine pre-existing condition rule.

[Strange Brew]

If you get into Obama's spending, you must first see that Bush handed him a US economy that was literally day-to-day. Yes Obama was way too Wall Street for my taste, but he got us out of that quagmire (one of which might be in our near future). Obama got them back by putting Warren in charge of monitoring the spending of that TARP money. We all remember the bonus scandal, thank you now Senator Warren.

Bush was an abject failure as a president. He cut taxes, but he never figured out to balance it. He made it harder to declare bankruptcy, got us in two never ending wars, and go ahead and toss in No Child Left Behind which was just awful. No, Bush was terrible and Obama was actually pretty average. Before you complain about government spending and Obama, remember he inherited a DEPRESSION not a recession. What else was he going to do to correct that?

Bush vs Obama, another little last measure Bush had record number of people without health insurance. Obama, ACA was/is terrible, but hey at least people have insurance and it dramatically lowered the uninsured total. We also finally dumped the asinine pre-existing condition rule.

The Congress cut taxes and didn’t cut spending. Bush signed it. Civics.
Everyone who paid taxes got tax relief. Fact.

The Left in Congress and the WH spent more than any US govt combined under Obama, Pelosi and Reid.

Are u suggesting Obama brokered peace in Iraq and Afghanistan???? Ok...
Iraq and the Taliban/Osama were problems in the 80s and beyond. Bush didn’t start that fire. The National Socialists of Germany built that powder keg and Carter emboldened it’s return.

Healthcare. Not something the Federal govt is given the power over by the states and the people. Bloated, expensive and ineffective.

[Caf]

Let me first say, government should should not be in the business of bailing out businesses (Wow, think I just made CAF’s same point a few pages ago, but he should have said “Republicans and some Libertarian’s”. Haha)

I don’t support this statement. The government backing the economy allows it to grow at rates it otherwise wouldn’t. Obviously the downside of this is it creates moral hazard and multiplies the severity of downturns. If the government is going to regulate the economy it should back it when its imperfections cause collapse and be able to regulate it fully when there are imperfections. That’s not the reality.

My point was just that the Bush bailouts did not represent the ideals a large number of their voters thought they stood for.

[X-band '01]

For all the talk about House potentially flipping to Democrats on Election Day, I'm surprised we don't hear more talk about state legislatures and governors flipping from Republican to Democrat. This is where we could really start to see a Blue Wave on Election Day.

Before you mention the Senate, this is not the year for Democrats to take the Senate. Too many seats for them to defend this cycle, but they've got a much more favorable outlook for flipping the Senate in 2020.

[ArizonaXUGrad]

The Congress cut taxes and didn’t cut spending. Bush signed it. Civics.
Everyone who paid taxes got tax relief. Fact.

The Left in Congress and the WH spent more than any US govt combined under Obama, Pelosi and Reid.

Are u suggesting Obama brokered peace in Iraq and Afghanistan???? Ok...
Iraq and the Taliban/Osama were problems in the 80s and beyond. Bush didn’t start that fire. The National Socialists of Germany built that powder keg and Carter emboldened it’s return.

Healthcare. Not something the Federal govt is given the power over by the states and the people. Bloated, expensive and ineffective.

Give me a break, don’t blame congress. Bush had 6 years of House Republican rule.

Explain how the Obama administration was supposed to get the country out of a depression without spending.

While you are at it, why all the cuts on taxes when the budget isn’t even balanced? Why all the spending for the military with corresponding desire to cut programs that help the people? Why cut taxes for corporations when all they do are stock buy backs and continue wage stagnation and lay offs? All that supply side is working great MAGA.


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[ChicagoX]

Give me a break, don’t blame congress. Bush had 6 years of House Republican rule.

Explain how the Obama administration was supposed to get the country out of a depression without spending.

While you are at it, why all the cuts on taxes when the budget isn’t even balanced? Why all the spending for the military with corresponding desire to cut programs that help the people? Why cut taxes for corporations when all they do are stock buy backs and continue wage stagnation and lay offs? All that supply side is working great MAGA.


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I think that enough people are finally seeing supply-side economics for the fraud that it is and have had enough of the crony capitalism that has stagnated wages and wiped out the middle class for nearly four decades.

The Hill: Wages drop despite economic boom (http://thehill.com/policy/finance/401341-wages-drop-despite-economic-boom)

[bleedXblue]

Let me remind everyone what a great country we live in: IMHO there is one simple underlying mechanism that enables just about every American to get out of life and this country what they want to. It's the desire and work ethic to want to get ahead. And this is all about doing this ON YOUR OWN. If you have an expectation or have been brought up in an environment that this is someone else's responsibility, you are going to be for a long, tough haul in life. Sure, there are those that have been given an a head start and an advantage over others, but nothing is more important than work ethic and the desire for more. Our system of government and democracy/capitalism in general is not sustainable (long term) without individuals contributing more than they receive in return. Obama, Clinton, Bush, Reagan, Trump....doesn't matter who the President is or what party has the house majority. It doesn't really matter who gets appointed to the Supreme Court. If and when the average American expects their government to bail them out and provide assistance for whatever it is they they are in need of, we are screwed.

[ChicagoX]

If and when the average American expects their government to bail them out and provide assistance for whatever it is they they are in need of, we are screwed.

The largest corporations and wealthiest Americans get bailouts and government assistance in the form of massive tax breaks all the time. Why is it ok for them but not for lower and middle class Americans? It seems like welfare is ok if it goes to Fortune 500 companies but it's bad when it goes to low-income Americans. If you want healthcare or affordable college, you're a moocher. If you're a CEO or other exec, bailouts and government assistance are just fine. This is part of the fraud that is supply-side economics.

[xudash]

The largest corporations and wealthiest Americans get bailouts and government assistance in the form of massive tax breaks all the time. Why is it ok for them but not for lower and middle class Americans? It seems like welfare is ok if it goes to Fortune 500 companies but it's bad when it goes to low-income Americans. If you want healthcare or affordable college, you're a moocher. If you're a CEO or other exec, bailouts and government assistance are just fine. This is part of the fraud that is supply-side economics.

Wow. Who actually funds the vast majority of tax revenue in the United States?

[xudash]

Let me remind everyone what a great country we live in: IMHO there is one simple underlying mechanism that enables just about every American to get out of life and this country what they want to. It's the desire and work ethic to want to get ahead. And this is all about doing this ON YOUR OWN. If you have an expectation or have been brought up in an environment that this is someone else's responsibility, you are going to be for a long, tough haul in life. Sure, there are those that have been given an a head start and an advantage over others, but nothing is more important than work ethic and the desire for more. Our system of government and democracy/capitalism in general is not sustainable (long term) without individuals contributing more than they receive in return. Obama, Clinton, Bush, Reagan, Trump....doesn't matter who the President is or what party has the house majority. It doesn't really matter who gets appointed to the Supreme Court. If and when the average American expects their government to bail them out and provide assistance for whatever it is they they are in need of, we are screwed.

Well done.

[ArizonaXUGrad]

Let me remind everyone what a great country we live in: IMHO there is one simple underlying mechanism that enables just about every American to get out of life and this country what they want to. It's the desire and work ethic to want to get ahead. And this is all about doing this ON YOUR OWN. If you have an expectation or have been brought up in an environment that this is someone else's responsibility, you are going to be for a long, tough haul in life. Sure, there are those that have been given an a head start and an advantage over others, but nothing is more important than work ethic and the desire for more. Our system of government and democracy/capitalism in general is not sustainable (long term) without individuals contributing more than they receive in return. Obama, Clinton, Bush, Reagan, Trump....doesn't matter who the President is or what party has the house majority. It doesn't really matter who gets appointed to the Supreme Court. If and when the average American expects their government to bail them out and provide assistance for whatever it is they they are in need of, we are screwed.

This argument is tired and old. When did I ever ask for handouts? This is straight out of the supply-side narrative to change the argument to handouts instead of what it should be which is fair compensation and the ability of all to build wealth.

If you don't see the current system as one that is attempting to create a generation of people with large amounts of debt, working diligently to attempt to pay down that debt, and accepting of the current system because it's all they have, then I just can't help you.

I graduated in '98 when a car loan was 3 years, 4 years to lower the payment, and 5 years was the absolute max. One has to go to a Credit Union now for anything under 5 years for a new car and dealers are going up to 7 years. Home loans are already up to 40 years if you want one and I bet my kids will be able to get a 50 year loan. Wages have not met costs and your ability to obtain long term debt and the ever increasing term debt speaks novels for those willing to see.

Edit: I guess you hated TARP, you hated the farm bailouts people just got, you must really hate food stamps, and Medicare, Social Security, etc. Government should just be overpaying for military stuff and bootstraps to hand out to the public.

[ChicagoX]

Wow. Who actually funds the vast majority of tax revenue in the United States?

The same people and companies who get, by far, the most massive tax breaks that they really don't need and get bailed out by the federal government after crashing the economy. Corporate profits were at record highs before these tax breaks went into effect. It's one thing to lower taxes during a recession, but you won't find a reputable economist who would suggest that doing it in times of prosperity is a good idea. Lowering to corporate tax rate to 21% was way too much. They should have dropped it to the 28-30% range. For people like us who benefit from the stock market, it's great, but the majority of Americans do not own stock. This was nothing more than the GOP paying off their donors.

[xudash]

The same people and companies who get, by far, the most massive tax breaks that they really don't need and get bailed out by the federal government after crashing the economy. Corporate profits were at record highs before these tax breaks went into effect. It's one thing to lower taxes during a recession, but you won't find a reputable economist who would suggest that doing it in times of prosperity is a good idea. Lowering to corporate tax rate to 21% was way too much. They should have dropped it to the 28-30% range. For people like us who benefit from the stock market, it's great, but the majority of Americans do not own stock. This was nothing more than the GOP paying off their donors.

Nice try.

Reputable according to you only?

Do you believe the spending side of the equation is a problem?

BTW, I agree with you totally about more equitable compensation.

[ArizonaXUGrad]

The same people and companies who get, by far, the most massive tax breaks that they really don't need and get bailed out by the federal government after crashing the economy. Corporate profits were at record highs before these tax breaks went into effect. It's one thing to lower taxes during a recession, but you won't find a reputable economist who would suggest that doing it in times of prosperity is a good idea. Lowering to corporate tax rate to 21% was way too much. They should have dropped it to the 28-30% range. For people like us who benefit from the stock market, it's great, but the majority of Americans do not own stock. This was nothing more than the GOP paying off their donors.

100% correct, most companies are not buying treasury stock at record numbers. Those fake bonuses were just garbage. AT&T's was negotiated by a union prior to the tax cut announcement. They are now laying people off in call centers nationwide and moving their jobs overseas. Carrier, they just delayed the inevitable.

I said it already, the rich aren't propping up this economy. The vast mass of people that make up what can be still considered a middle class are. They are eking by, saving a little, and calling it prosperous. The country's total outstanding revolving debt has been increasing each year and has not stopped. Something will give, I don't see another crash but things will certainly decline to recession territory. I could see a crash happen with a housing correction. Families have to be nearly on the bring just to buy a home today.

[ChicagoX]

Do you believe the spending side of the equation is a problem?

The GOP slashing taxes and increasing spending will lead to our next recession. The mountains of debt piling up and the increase in inflation caused by the tax cuts will be responsible for it. The idea that Republicans are the party of fiscal conservatism is a farce and has been for nearly four decades. Cutting taxes and increasing spending isn't fiscally responsible. Tax cuts never pay for themselves no matter how many times Republicans say that they will.

[ArizonaXUGrad]

Nice try.

Reputable according to you only?

Do you believe the spending side of the equation is a problem?

BTW, I agree with you totally about more equitable compensation.

Half true, half false.

Economists are pretty split about tax cuts boosting the economy. They are, however, not split on the types of cuts that would help the economy. Cuts for the poor and middle class will most likely boost short term GDP. Permanent cuts are a much weaker affect. Cuts to the rich, don't help much at all. They don't spend money they get.

[bleedXblue]

This argument is tired and old. When did I ever ask for handouts? This is straight out of the supply-side narrative to change the argument to handouts instead of what it should be which is fair compensation and the ability of all to build wealth.

If you don't see the current system as one that is attempting to create a generation of people with large amounts of debt, working diligently to attempt to pay down that debt, and accepting of the current system because it's all they have, then I just can't help you.

I graduated in '98 when a car loan was 3 years, 4 years to lower the payment, and 5 years was the absolute max. One has to go to a Credit Union now for anything under 5 years for a new car and dealers are going up to 7 years. Home loans are already up to 40 years if you want one and I bet my kids will be able to get a 50 year loan. Wages have not met costs and your ability to obtain long term debt and the ever increasing term debt speaks novels for those willing to see.

Edit: I guess you hated TARP, you hated the farm bailouts people just got, you must really hate food stamps, and Medicare, Social Security, etc. Government should just be overpaying for military stuff and bootstraps to hand out to the public.

1. Buy a used car for $3,000 to $5,000 they get you from point A to point B just fine
2. Only buy a home that you can afford
3. Don't spend what you don't have

One bailout does not beget or absolve another. We're in this downward sprial b/c the basic premise has been breached

I never said that there wont be people in need and those deserving of help. But when the thought process shifts from you taking care of yourself, to the government taking care of you, it all falls apart.

You may think its tired argument.....and that's fine. Its just paint you as part of the problem from my perspective.

[ArizonaXUGrad]

1. Buy a used car for $3,000 to $5,000 they get you from point A to point B just fine
2. Only buy a home that you can afford
3. Don't spend what you don't have

One bailout does not beget or absolve another. We're in this downward sprial b/c the basic premise has been breached

I never said that there wont be people in need and those deserving of help. But when the thought process shifts from you taking care of yourself, to the government taking care of you, it all falls apart.

You may think its tired argument.....and that's fine. Its just paint you as part of the problem from my perspective.

You will love this, at what point do decisions get to you can have your food or your heat in your home/apartment? It's coming, it has arrived for a lot of people.

For #1 I just did an autotrader search for 5k and less and really not much came up for less than 5k. What appeared had an average mileage at 130k. I think your 'just fine' and my 'just fine' are two completely different things. Someone making enough to afford the $5k car can't afford the problems that come with it.
2 - on homes, and it's fun to bring you down to Earth. Rent is at an all time high. Home prices are ever increasing. Buying at a low level in Phoenix puts average families house poor a lot of the time. That is just an unfortunate fact. Welcome to planet Earth Bleed.

I hate to break it to you, nobody on here is screaming for massive government handouts. Stop with that tired narrative, I get it supports what you want to argue about. We are talking about wage stagnation and cost increases. You have your head in the sand screaming about handouts.

[bleedXblue]

You will love this, at what point do decisions get to you can have your food or your heat in your home/apartment? It's coming, it has arrived for a lot of people.

For #1 I just did an autotrader search for 5k and less and really not much came up for less than 5k. What appeared had an average mileage at 130k. I think your 'just fine' and my 'just fine' are two completely different things. Someone making enough to afford the $5k car can't afford the problems that come with it.
2 - on homes, and it's fun to bring you down to Earth. Rent is at an all time high. Home prices are ever increasing. Buying at a low level in Phoenix puts average families house poor a lot of the time. That is just an unfortunate fact. Welcome to planet Earth Bleed.

I hate to break it to you, nobody on here is screaming for massive government handouts. Stop with that tired narrative, I get it supports what you want to argue about. We are talking about wage stagnation and cost increases. You have your head in the sand screaming about handouts.

Wage stagnation........the sky is falling.......

If you don't like the amount of money you make, go find another job or work overtime. Get 2nd or 3rd job.

If its too expensive in Phoenix, get the hell out and move to the midwest.

Cost increases. Well no shit, the economy is booming. Costs are ALWAYS going to go up over time.

Your narrative is to make excuses and cower from the real issue(s).

You see, there are ALWAYS options and there are things that you can do to improve your situation. You just have to make the choice to do so. You have to make the effort and give a shit. You would rather blame someone else or something else.......instead of owning it on your own and figuring out a way to make it work.

[ArizonaXUGrad]

People have to live and work in all parts of the country. My question is why people need overtime or worse second and third jobs just to save a bit or to survive.

You aren’t asking the right questions or looking at the issues with empathy for everyone. You see if through your eyes only.


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[noteggs]

Let me remind everyone what a great country we live in: IMHO there is one simple underlying mechanism that enables just about every American to get out of life and this country what they want to. It's the desire and work ethic to want to get ahead. And this is all about doing this ON YOUR OWN. [/U]

Very well posted!

The work hard to get ahead (to me) is an ambition or goal and is time tested while true today. As I grew up with my parents guidance, they instilled those principles you described. Also, they told me failure was a possibility at times, but don’t give up. Early in my working career, I questioned a lot - can it be done, today is different when than they were my age, and if I fail, how will I take care of myself and family.

Obviously, it’s hard today and before! Wish I had the same courage as my parents had for me and tell my kids that life sucks sometimes (ok maybe I have a little).

[paulxu]

Some fun


https://youtu.be/8EsUNOIYyKg

[Caf]

All explanations of our current polarity go back to the financial crisis. The tea party and occupy wall street which is now the Bernie Sanders crowd started in response to our handling of that.

Specifically relating to the Republican Party, a President named George Bush signed a massive bailout contradicting their small government stances for the second time in our nations history. This, and specifically the Rick Santelli rant on CNBC, gave birth to the Tea Party. The rest is history.

Populism is the true legacy of the global financial crisis - FT (https://www.ft.com/content/687c0184-aaa6-11e8-94bd-cba20d67390c)


Historians will look back on the crisis of 2008 as the moment the world’s most powerful nations surrendered international leadership, and globalisation went into reverse. The rest of the world has understandably concluded it has little to learn from the west. Many thought at the time that the collapse of communism would presage the permanent hegemony of open, liberal democracies. Instead, what really will puzzle the historians is why the ancien régime was so lazily complacent — complicit, rather — in its own demise.

[paulxu]

Do I have this right; big tax cuts for corporations and the super wealthy...but cancelled federal pay raises?

Nice.

[GoMuskies]

What was the tax cut for the super wealthy?

[paulxu]

What is changing


A new tax cut for the rich: The final plan lowers the top tax rate for top earners. Under current law, the highest rate is 39.6 percent for married couples earning over $470,700. The GOP bill would drop that to 37 percent and raise the threshold at which that top rate kicks in, to $500,000 for individuals and $600,000 for married couples. This amounts to a significant tax break for the very wealthy, a departure from repeated claims by Trump and his top officials that the bill would not benefit the rich. The new tax break for millionaires goes beyond what was in the original House and Senate bills, with Republicans seeking to ensure wealthy earners in states such as New York, Connecticut and California don't end up paying substantially higher taxes as a result of the bill.

2017 Tax Bill
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2017/12/15/the-final-gop-tax-bill-is-complete-heres-what-is-in-it/?utm_term=.0b7d8f97a6f8

[GoMuskies]

Is it really a cut? As WaPo points out "The new tax break for millionaires goes beyond what was in the original House and Senate bills, with Republicans seeking to ensure wealthy earners in states such as New York, Connecticut and California don't end up paying substantially higher taxes as a result of the bill."

[bobbiemcgee]

Yes, the Blue States with high real estate prices , sales tax, property tax, etc. were penalized. And they can't deduct their Yacht interest anymore. What a burden. The rate for the super rich dropped from 39.6 to 37%.

[GoMuskies]

The rate changed, but only because it otherwise was going to be a huge tax increase. I don't think this is a net tax cut for the super rich as a whole. I suppose it's great for the super rich in Texas, Nevada and Florida, though.

[paulxu]

However we slice it, it is (at least) at third shot at the failed trickle down nonsense.
What was really wrong with the tax levels for individuals and corporations in 2000?
People were doing as well as they could (despite stagnant middle class wages) but...we had a balanced federal budget, with a surplus!!

A chance to actually be fiscally conservative as I hear the Republicans talk about all the time, as they slash taxes and increase spending.
We missed a golden opportunity to actually pay down some of the national debt.

And now we don't have enough for a small raise for federal workers after cutting taxes? What a scam has been pulled on this country.

[Strange Brew]

However we slice it, it is (at least) at third shot at the failed trickle down nonsense.
What was really wrong with the tax levels for individuals and corporations in 2000?
People were doing as well as they could (despite stagnant middle class wages) but...we had a balanced federal budget, with a surplus!!

A chance to actually be fiscally conservative as I hear the Republicans talk about all the time, as they slash taxes and increase spending.
We missed a golden opportunity to actually pay down some of the national debt.

And now we don't have enough for a small raise for federal workers after cutting taxes? What a scam has been pulled on this country.

At no point did the feds actually bring in more than they spent. The surplus was projected which was due to a R Congress.

We have plenty of money. Make cuts elsewhere. If Fed workers are pissed they can get a job in the BOOMING PROVATE ECONMY!

At this point I’ll take deficits and more money in my pocket over paying more for the gov’t to mismanage money (Obama’s/leftist demand side utter, complete and dismal failure. Which was easily predictable if you’re not stupid).

[paulxu]

At no point did the feds actually bring in more than they spent. The surplus was projected which was due to a R Congress.


You might want to check out 1998,99,2000, and 2001.

https://www.taxpolicycenter.org/statistics/federal-receipt-and-outlay-summary

I'm curious...do you actually believe in trickle down?

[Strange Brew]

You might want to check out 1998,99,2000, and 2001.

https://www.taxpolicycenter.org/statistics/federal-receipt-and-outlay-summary

I'm curious...do you actually believe in trickle down?

Tax policy center? Was the center for American progress unavailable?

Before I answer can you explain what you think it means?

Also, this year’s tax receipts are similar to 2016. So bringing in the same amount of money while people keep more of THEIR cash seems good to me. Cut spending if you care about budgets.

[paulxu]

What is wrong with you? Did you even look at that table, and look at the source.
It's copied from the Office of Management and Budget at the Whitehouse.
Here's the link. Go to table 1.3 and download the excel file and look at it.

https://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/historical-tables/

[Lloyd Braun]

What is wrong with you? Did you even look at that table, and look at the source.
It's copied from the Office of Management and Budget at the Whitehouse.
Here's the link. Go to table 1.3 and download the excel file and look at it.

https://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/historical-tables/

You’ll have to do better. Everyone knows the Whitehouse is not a legitimate source. #FakeNews

[bobbiemcgee]

Yes. Truth isn't truth. Maybe the farmers will give up their 12 billion from Trump (bcuz China didn't cave to his demands) for the lousy inflation rate pay raises.

[Strange Brew]

Yes. Truth isn't truth. Maybe the farmers will give up their 12 billion from Trump (bcuz China didn't cave to his demands) for the lousy inflation rate pay raises.

Sorry if this caveat above the table shows a revision to the actual data.. A revision done during the previous admin known for manipulating data/facts.

Summary of Receipts, Outlays, and Surpluses or Deficits (-)
In Current Dollars, Constant (FY 2009) Dollars, and as a Percentage of GDP: 1940-2023
(in Billions of Dollars)

If the Fed is going to spend money farmers who produce something of value is a much better investment than a gov't paper pusher.

[GoMuskies]

I don't like this idea of eliminating the requirement to start taking distributions from retirement accounts at 70.5. 50 years (if you start putting money into a 401(k) or IRA right out of college) is enough time to defer taxes. If you take a distribution, you don't have to spend the money. You just have to pay the taxes you've deferred for however long you've had retirement accounts.

[Caf]

I don't like this idea of eliminating the requirement to start taking distributions from retirement accounts at 70.5. 50 years (if you start putting money into a 401(k) or IRA right out of college) is enough time to defer taxes. If you take a distribution, you don't have to spend the money. You just have to pay the taxes you've deferred for however long you've had retirement accounts.

Roth for life

[GoMuskies]

In that case you've at least paid taxes up front on the principal.

[X-man]

Sorry if this caveat above the table shows a revision to the actual data.. A revision done during the previous admin known for manipulating data/facts.

Summary of Receipts, Outlays, and Surpluses or Deficits (-)
In Current Dollars, Constant (FY 2009) Dollars, and as a Percentage of GDP: 1940-2023
(in Billions of Dollars)

If the Fed is going to spend money farmers who produce something of value is a much better investment than a gov't paper pusher.
Evidence, please. And of course the current administration is always careful with data/facts.

[GoMuskies]

the current administration is always careful with data/facts.

Of course they are. They may have no basis in reality, but they're always careful with them.

[Strange Brew]

Evidence, please. And of course the current administration is always careful with data/facts.

Current dollars....No mention of actual dollars. Means adjustments were made to the actual figures.
If someone presented figures in current/adjusted dollars an intelligent person would want to see the raw figures.

[X-man]

Current dollars....No mention of actual dollars. Means adjustments were made to the actual figures.
If someone presented figures in current/adjusted dollars an intelligent person would want to see the raw figures.

WTF?? "Current dollars" simply means dollar amounts unadjusted for inflation. I would have thought you might have known that given your oft-stated prowess in economics.

[Caf]

WTF?? "Current dollars" simply means dollar amounts unadjusted for inflation. I would have thought you might have known that given your oft-stated prowess in economics.

I think he does. I think he's saying that since it's adjusted for inflation, then it's somehow more likely to have been manipulated in other ways. This is one of the lazier and ridiculous attempts at gaslighting I've seen by Brew.

Also strange it's more clear to say 'nominal' and 'real' instead of 'actual' and 'current'.

[X-man]

I think he does. I think he's saying that since it's adjusted for inflation, then it's somehow more likely to have been manipulated in other ways. This is one of the lazier and ridiculous attempts at gaslighting I've seen by Brew.

Also strange it's more clear to say 'nominal' and 'real' instead of 'actual' and 'current'.

But current dollars, because they are unadjusted for inflation, are in fact "actual dollars". So Strange's comment makes no sense. And if he really wanted real dollars (adjusted for inflation), those numbers are there in the same table. So Strange, like his pal Trump, is just making up shit about Obama. Unless he has some actual evidence that demonstrates data manipulation by the Obama administration, he should be ignored...just like Trump's tweets should be.

Having worked in the Bureau of Labor Statistics for 10 years, in the CPI office, I can assure you that the economists and statisticians who work there do there best to provide the best and most accurate data series possible. And the same can be said for those who work in the Bureau of Economic Analysis where the GDP data are tabulated. People like Strange and his pal Trump know absolutely nothing about what goes on in these statistical agencies. To claim that the data are manipulated or adjusted for political purposes is pure BS.

[Strange Brew]

WTF?? "Current dollars" simply means dollar amounts unadjusted for inflation. I would have thought you might have known that given your oft-stated prowess in economics.

Understand they were adjusted for inflation and that's my point. Why not include the raw data?

So does the raw data show a surplus or does it only magically appear when we "massage" for inflation.

Kind of like the "adjustments" made to the temperature record.....

[Caf]

Understand they were adjusted for inflation and that's my point. Why not include the raw data?

So does the raw data show a surplus or does in only magically appear when we "massage" for inflation.

Kind of like the "adjustments" made to the temperature record.....

If the point being made about the data is about whether there were surpluses or deficits aka the relationship between the dollars in a given year, then how is inflation even significant? The same rate would be applied to outlay and income for every year.

[Strange Brew]

If the point being made about the data is about whether there were surpluses or deficits aka the relationship between the dollars in a given year, then how is inflation even significant? The same rate would be applied to outlay and income for every year.

Sure, if it was done that way. Inflation is sig as it shows how the level of spending/taxation collection compares to today's numbers. Let's see the raw data.

The temp record has been adjusted to fit an agenda so let's see the raw budget data.

[X-man]

Understand they were adjusted for inflation and that's my point. Why not include the raw data?

So does the raw data show a surplus or does it only magically appear when we "massage" for inflation.

Kind of like the "adjustments" made to the temperature record.....

Table 1.3 shows the (historic) budget data in "current dollars" (the actual numbers not adjusted for inflation) and in "constant dollars" (adjusted for inflation). You seem to (1) not understand that "current dollars", because they are not adjusted for inflation, are the actual numbers, and (2) because both current dollar and constant dollar budget data are in this table, you can have your pick. Both series have their uses. Neither is adjusted for political purposes. Go back and look at your macro textbook to understand what I am talking about. And if it helps, think "nominal" for "current dollars" and "real" for "constant dollars" (as Caf "sort of" suggested).

[Strange Brew]

Table 1.3 shows the (historic) budget data in "current dollars" (the actual numbers not adjusted for inflation) and in "constant dollars" (adjusted for inflation). You seem to (1) not understand that "current dollars", because they are not adjusted for inflation, are the actual numbers, and (2) because both current dollar and constant dollar budget data are in this table, you can have your pick. Both series have their uses. Neither is adjusted for political purposes. Go back and look at your macro textbook to understand what I am talking about. And if it helps, think "nominal" for "current dollars" and "real" for "constant dollars" (as Caf "sort of" suggested).

Yep, this one's on me. Totally misread your post. Reps to you.

Interesting that the debt was never reduced as a result.

[X-man]

Yep, this one's on me. Totally misread your post. Reps to you.

Interesting that the debt was never reduced as a result.

No worries.

[bleedXblue]

https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/careersandeducation/americans-are-flocking-to-these-15-cities-for-their-jobs-and-wages/ar-BBMI1GS

Well look at that......plenty of jobs, increasing wages.........

Hmmm...

[paulxu]

Just curious....did you read the first sentence of the article...or just the headline?



Though housing is scarce and wages are stagnant across the country, a lot of American cities are booming: They offer job opportunities, thriving businesses and an abundance of places to live.

There are some bright spots, no doubt. But we've got a lot of work left to do, to impact the whole country.

[bleedXblue]

Just curious....did you read the first sentence of the article...or just the headline?



There are some bright spots, no doubt. But we've got a lot of work left to do, to impact the whole country.

Yeah I read the whole article thank you. Are you really naive enough to think the whole country or economy is going to see across the board increases in every market and every job? That will never happen. Ever.

[GoMuskies]

So Jon Kyl is back? Great.

[Lloyd Braun]

So Jon Kyl is back? Great.

Really difficult to not think of this (http://www.cc.com/video-clips/wueypc/the-colbert-report-pap-smears-at-walgreens) when I hear his name: starts at 1:29.

[Caf]

When will Steele announce Xavier is ditching the Nike brand?

[paulxu]

Yeah I read the whole article thank you. Are you really naive enough to think the whole country or economy is going to see across the board increases in every market and every job? That will never happen. Ever.

Of course not. But, we might see the market as a whole experience a wage increase...rather than "wages are stagnant across the country."

Somehow that just doesn't seem MAGA.

[ArizonaXUGrad]

Really difficult to not think of this (http://www.cc.com/video-clips/wueypc/the-colbert-report-pap-smears-at-walgreens) when I hear his name: starts at 1:29.

Kyl, this was literally a crappy play than Archie Bradley had this weekend against the Dodgers.

[ArizonaXUGrad]

When will Steele announce Xavier is ditching the Nike brand?

What? Seriously?

[GoMuskies]

The Brett Kavanaugh circus is underway. These speeches from the senators are tiresome and generally irrelevant.

[scoscox]

"Though housing is scarce and wages are stagnant across the country, a lot of American cities are booming: They offer job opportunities, thriving businesses and an abundance of places to live."

So, housing is scarce, but cities are offering an abundance of places to live? Those seem at odds with each other

[noteggs]

When will Steele announce Xavier is ditching the Nike brand?


Nike stuff is a real head scratcher.

Sure there’re a lot of AD’s around the country with newly developed heart burn

[ArizonaXUGrad]

"Though housing is scarce and wages are stagnant across the country, a lot of American cities are booming: They offer job opportunities, thriving businesses and an abundance of places to live."

So, housing is scarce, but cities are offering an abundance of places to live? Those seem at odds with each other

I can't speak for any city save for Phoenix. I see a ton of apartments going up all around Phoenix. If there is an open space, they are tossing up an apartment complex. I just think they are predicting the same recession I am. When you can't rent homes, you have to get yourself an apartment.

[ArizonaXUGrad]

Nike stuff is a real head scratcher.

Sure there’re a lot of AD’s around the country with newly developed heart burn

Whether you agree with Kaep or not, you have to respect him. The guy gave up his career for his cause. He wasn't getting another starter spot but he could easily have slotted in as a backup for a lot of teams. Not only that, but after losing his career he kept it on. The guy is still charitable and still vocal.

[xudash]

Whether you agree with Kaep or not, you have to respect him. The guy gave up his career for his cause. He wasn't getting another starter spot but he could easily have slotted in as a backup for a lot of teams. Not only that, but after losing his career he kept it on. The guy is still charitable and still vocal.

He is a total piece of shit. How's that for not having to respect him.

[GoMuskies]

I'm completely indifferent on Kaepernick. I don't dislike him or anything, but I hardly find him to be a heroic figure.

[bleedXblue]

I think Nikes campaign is going to blow up in their face.

[bobbiemcgee]

He is a total piece of shit. How's that for not having to respect him.

Nobody owes him a job as a QB. Ask the 600 guys who just got cut and will be bagging groceries soon. And no, I don't respect him at all. Piece of shit as stated.

[Xville]

Whether you agree with Kaep or not, you have to respect him. The guy gave up his career for his cause. He wasn't getting another starter spot but he could easily have slotted in as a backup for a lot of teams. Not only that, but after losing his career he kept it on. The guy is still charitable and still vocal.

He's a whiny little bitch, why would I respect someone like that? Yeah real classy awesome guy that wore socks with cops on them in the form of pigs.

His Nike campaign is a complete fucking joke...what sacrifice did he make? He already made his millions....plenty of people have sacrificed for this country or for a group of people...Kaep isn't one of them.

[xudash]

Nobody owes him a job as a QB. Ask the 600 guys who just got cut and will be bagging groceries soon. And no, I don't respect him at all. Piece of shit as stated.

There was a picture on Facebook today, depicting foreign workers in a Nike sweat shop who apparently make $.20 an hour.

All PR is good PR? Perhaps not anymore.

[bleedXblue]

There was a picture on Facebook today, depicting foreign workers in a Nike sweat shop who apparently make $.20 an hour.

All PR is good PR? Perhaps not anymore.

Like a said, Nike is going to regret this one

[boozehound]

Lot of (presumably) old white dudes from the midwest not fond of Kaep it seems.

I don't necessarily agree with his stance, nor do I totally disagree, but I will give him credit for backing up his convictions even thought it ultimately cost him his job. It certainly did become a bit theatrical, though.

Regarding the Nike campaign: my guess is that they did a healthy amount of market research before making this choice. That doesn't mean it will end up being a good choice, but I can pretty much guarantee you that the decision was not taken lightly.

[ArizonaXUGrad]

So you guys like police brutality? I don't and I don't like cops that still put up the blue wall when one of their own is guilty of it.

[Caf]

Regarding the Nike campaign: my guess is that they did a healthy amount of market research before making this choice. That doesn't mean it will end up being a good choice, but I can pretty much guarantee you that the decision was not taken lightly.

Agreed. In my view they'll feel some short term pain, but this is a smart long-term move. Professional athletes are the ones who wear and ultimately sell their products. Sorry Trumpers, you aren't the target market.

[xudash]

So you guys like police brutality? I don't and enjoyI don't like cops that still put up the blue wall when one of their own is guilty of it.

Do you enjoy posing stupid questions?

[Caf]

Do you enjoy posing stupid questions?

I do


When will Steele announce Xavier is ditching the Nike brand?

[Xville]

So you guys like police brutality? I don't and I don't like cops that still put up the blue wall when one of their own is guilty of it.

let me reply with another stupid question. Do you think Michael Brown is still a saint?

[ArizonaXUGrad]

Do you enjoy posing stupid questions?

You do understand that you can support an individuals position but not his/her entire platform right? Politics isn't a spectator sport. I support Kaep in all things against police brutality and one step further the covering up of noted brutality. How is that bad? Really since it was a serviceman who told him to kneel, why is that awful?

[ArizonaXUGrad]

let me reply with another stupid question. Do you think Michael Brown is still a saint?

Since when was not being a saint grounds for execution. That is one case, google the myriad of others where the shooting or beat down was not warranted.

Do you know any police? I know a lot. They are trained to de-escalate situations. If I walk up and punch a cop in the face and immediately throw my hands in the air and surrender, the letter of their training they can only arrest me. That is a simple explanation, but one that illustrates the point. A great deal of the brutality occurs when police forget their training and escalate situations.

[xudash]

There is no room for police brutality in this nation. Period. End of story.

If that happens through racial profiling or otherwise (i.e. not race related, but an overzealous police officer jumping the gun on anyone), it is unacceptable.

What is absolutely total bullshit is some punk doing something stupid and illegal, getting caught, resisting, receiving a behavior modification session from the police, and then playing the police brutality card.

How any of this translates to taking a knee and disrespecting the flag and our national anthem is beyond me. Free country? Protesting is allowed, and possibly necessary?

Not in this way. Not for that reason. Not with American men and women in uniform dying in combat.

[Xville]

Since when was not being a saint grounds for execution. That is one case, google the myriad of others where the shooting or beat down was not warranted.

Do you know any police? I know a lot. They are trained to de-escalate situations. If I walk up and punch a cop in the face and immediately throw my hands in the air and surrender, the letter of their training they can only arrest me. That is a simple explanation, but one that illustrates the point. A great deal of the brutality occurs when police forget their training and escalate situations.

Whatever man...obey the effing law, don't put yourself in that situation and i guarantee you won't be killed by a police officer.

Yes my Uncle is a cop, his wife was killed in front of his four kids in their home when an escaped convict from prison came looking for him because he had arrested him the first time. It's one of the reasons I fully support the death penalty, and is another reason I don't have any empathy for stupid fucks or families of stupid fucks who try to portray themselves as just innocent victims.

Yes there are complete ahole cops out there, and ones who think their gun is an extension of their third leg but after the dust has settled, most of these "unwarranted" situations, turn out to be pretty warranted.

[scoscox]

since it was a serviceman who told him to kneel, why is that awful?

Kaep was sitting down for the anthem before this, the serviceman wanted him to stand and they decided kneeling was a compromise position. People continue to misrepresent this and it's annoying.

[muskienick]

THIS SHIT IS GETTING VERY UGLY!!! Let's get back to the point where we are all fans of everything "XAVIER" and put all this divisive crap behind us! The way this thread is going, we are beginning to create lifelong enemies among our fan base. I am sure that was not the intention of the developers of this fine XU website!

[ArizonaXUGrad]

What is absolutely total bullshit is some punk doing something stupid and illegal, getting caught, resisting, receiving a behavior modification session from the police, and then playing the police brutality card.

Since when are police granted the power to dole out punishment. This a huge problem with police today. They think that it’s their place to go beyond detain and arrest. It’s not and the needs to be corrected.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[ArizonaXUGrad]

Whatever man...obey the effing law, don't put yourself in that situation and i guarantee you won't be killed by a police officer.

Yes my Uncle is a cop, his wife was killed in front of his four kids in their home when an escaped convict from prison came looking for him because he had arrested him the first time. It's one of the reasons I fully support the death penalty, and is another reason I don't have any empathy for stupid fucks or families of stupid fucks who try to portray themselves as just innocent victims.

Yes there are complete ahole cops out there, and ones who think their gun is an extension of their third leg but after the dust has settled, most of these "unwarranted" situations, turn out to be pretty warranted.

That is awful what happened to your uncle but this is apples and oranges. I am referring to brutality and the blue wall that covers for them. It is real and needs to be cleaned. I am not a minority so I don’t know what it feels like daily. I know minorities and I have first hand experience seeing cops hassle them for nothing.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Xville]

That is awful what happened to your uncle but this is apples and oranges. I am referring to brutality and the blue wall that covers for them. It is real and needs to be cleaned. I am not a minority so I don’t know what it feels like daily. I know minorities and I have first hand experience seeing cops hassle them for nothing.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I was replying to your idiotic "Do you know any cops?" question, as if that matters. You love that argument and bring it up in most situations as if it makes your argument stronger...you just did with the "Do you know any minorities? I do."

Are some cops racist? Absolutely. Do some cops take things way too far and are trigger happy? yes and yes. Is this really a "major problem" as you stated? No....it has been sensationalized by liberal media...it's the same song and dance in these cases it seems about every time. Punk breaks the law, Cop is called to situation, punk doesn't listen to cop, cop has to make a split second decision because punk doesn't follow orders and cop shoots punk. Parents immediately get on news crying how their baby is such a good boy even though he has a rap sheet about a mile long, cue picture of boy with a cap and gown or picture of him as a ten year old when he is really 18-25, protest....rinse and repeat.

[Caf]

Are some cops racist? Absolutely. Do some cops take things way too far and are trigger happy? yes and yes. Is this really a "major problem" as you stated? No.

Why not? Is it a matter of scale?

[ArizonaXUGrad]

Then how do you not know they are trained to de-escalate situations?

How did this escape you? How does punishment for knuckleheads by cops enter in as acceptable? These aren’t stupid questions.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Lloyd Braun]

I was replying to your idiotic "Do you know any cops?" question, as if that matters. You love that argument and bring it up in most situations as if it makes your argument stronger...you just did with the "Do you know any minorities? I do."


People tend to ask if one has been in a situation or know someone who has been in a situation because you may come off as out of touch with the reality of what minorities go through on a daily basis. If I claim blacks and whites are on equal ground and white males have it just as tough with the cops, isn’t the natural reply going to question my past experiences?
You may not like that argument... but the “blame everything on the liberal media” argument isn’t exactly a good one either.

[GoMuskies]

I don't think that's quite what Xville is saying Lloyd. It's more equating, "I don't hate cops, I've got cop friends" with "I'm not racist, I have black friends".

[X-band '01]

THIS SHIT IS GETTING VERY UGLY!!! Let's get back to the point where we are all fans of everything "XAVIER" and put all this divisive crap behind us! The way this thread is going, we are beginning to create lifelong enemies among our fan base. I am sure that was not the intention of the developers of this fine XU website!

To be fair Nick, this is a lot tamer compared to other collegiate boards that allow political discussion. Much like the global warming thread, every poster enters at their own risk.

That is not a green light for posters to personally attack one another, though.

[Xville]

Then how do you not know they are trained to de-escalate situations?

How did this escape you? How does punishment for knuckleheads by cops enter in as acceptable? These aren’t stupid questions.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I'm well aware how they are trained. However, in actual real life, things don't go "by the book." Some people don't comply and there is only so much "de-escalating" that one can do when that person is not complying, threatens the officer, and/or presumably may have a gun and the cop's life is in danger.

[Xville]

I don't think that's quite what Xville is saying Lloyd. It's more equating, "I don't hate cops, I've got cop friends" with "I'm not racist, I have black friends".

yes exactly.

[Xville]

Why not? Is it a matter of scale?

In my opinion, yes it is the number to which this becomes a "major" problem or not. I'd equate this to illegal immigrants killing or sexually assaulting citizens. Does it happen? Yep. However, I don't think its a "major" problem.

As a country, we really need to start attacking the major issues. In this case, I'm much more concerned with citizens killing citizens which is much more of a "major" problem.

[Lloyd Braun]

I don't think that's quite what Xville is saying Lloyd. It's more equating, "I don't hate cops, I've got cop friends" with "I'm not racist, I have black friends".

Actually I think it’s the opposite situation here. Those statements are defensive situations to dismiss an accusation of racism or hating cops, whereas Arizonaxugrad was assumingly questioning Xville’s background to understand why Xville believes this is not a major problem. Which was answered as basically it does not occur enough or severely enough to be a major problem, and when it does occur it was probably deserved, and cops have a tough job (which they do).

[scoscox]

I can't speak for any city save for Phoenix. I see a ton of apartments going up all around Phoenix. If there is an open space, they are tossing up an apartment complex. I just think they are predicting the same recession I am. When you can't rent homes, you have to get yourself an apartment.

Why would that lead to a recession?

By the way, recessions will happen every 20 years like clockwork for almost always totally unpredictable reasons and are unavoidable no matter what policy is in place. Overreacting to the natural cycles of the economy only leads to more problems later on down the road.

[xudash]

Since when are police granted the power to dole out punishment. This a huge problem with police today. They think that it’s their place to go beyond detain and arrest. It’s not and the needs to be corrected.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Maybe you're right. In the event some day some really bad person walks up to you and beats the living crap out of you, steals your wallet, spits on you, laughs about it and then struggles mightily as he is caught by the police in front of you, make sure you tell the police he is a misunderstood individual who is oppressed. Tell them to take good care of him. Have them take the money from your wallet to pay for milk and cookies to be kept in their back seat to comfort and settle the misunderstood, violent "victim" of a Republican society.

I'm not talking about doling out punishment on the spot. If a person resists arrest and does so rather violently, they're going to be put into the squad car a little roughly. That's their fault, not the fault of the arresting police.

[Caf]

In my opinion, yes it is the number to which this becomes a "major" problem or not. I'd equate this to illegal immigrants killing or sexually assaulting citizens. Does it happen? Yep. However, I don't think its a "major" problem.

As a country, we really need to start attacking the major issues. In this case, I'm much more concerned with citizens killing citizens which is much more of a "major" problem.

This is where I get lost. I see what you're saying and believe it is a reasonable, albeit subjective, opinion. The same could be said of the opinion that this is a major issue, no? If your issue with this is that players and the media are misrepresenting the severity of the issue, then you've already acknowledged that it is one in the first place. So what's the big deal? They have a different opinion about the severity, and want to bring light to it. So what? In your eyes, is a player kneeling for the anthem a bigger issue than the one they're protesting about?

[xudash]

In my opinion, yes it is the number to which this becomes a "major" problem or not. I'd equate this to illegal immigrants killing or sexually assaulting citizens. Does it happen? Yep. However, I don't think its a "major" problem.

As a country, we really need to start attacking the major issues. In this case, I'm much more concerned with citizens killing citizens which is much more of a "major" problem.

Your absolutely correct about that, but that narrative is anathema to liberals.

[scoscox]

This is where I get lost. I see what you're saying and believe it is a reasonable, albeit subjective, opinion. The same could be said of the opinion that this is a major issue, no? If your issue with this is that players and the media are misrepresenting the severity of the issue, then you've already acknowledged that it is one in the first place. So what's the big deal? They have a different opinion about the severity, and want to bring light to it. So what? In your eyes, is a player kneeling for the anthem a bigger issue than the one they're protesting about?

Falsely portraying it as a widespread problem often leads to escalating violent confrontations between police and citizens, most memorably the shooting of 5 police officers in Dallas.

There's a difference between shining a light on a problem and dishonestly portraying its scope to push an agenda.

[Caf]

Portraying it as a widespread problem often leads to escalating violent confrontations between police and citizens, most memorably the shooting of 5 police officers in Dallas.

I completely agree, especially about Dallas. It's a self perpetuating problem. I don't however think saying these protesters should be suppressed as they're protesting what they perceive to be a major issue helps quell tensions either.

[Xville]

This is where I get lost. I see what you're saying and believe it is a reasonable, albeit subjective, opinion. The same could be said of the opinion that this is a major issue, no? If your issue with this is that players and the media are misrepresenting the severity of the issue, then you've already acknowledged that it is one in the first place. So what's the big deal? They have a different opinion about the severity, and want to bring light to it. So what? In your eyes, is a player kneeling for the anthem a bigger issue than the one they're protesting about?

Honestly, I dont care if a player kneels or not. To each their own as it is a free country, and they have a right to Express their opinion. Kaep is mainly a piece of shit because 1.) The pig reference and 2.) Says it is a systematic problem which is the biggslest bunch of bullshit I have ever heard. 3.) The lie that he made a big sacrifice which is a slap in the face to the people that actually did or are making sacrifices every day in this country.

What I have a problem with are the lies and sensationalism perpetrated by the media and the "victim's" families that not only seek to make money off their sons or daughters but incite riots based off false narratives.

[Caf]

Honestly, I dont care if a player kneels or not. To each their own as it is a free country, and they have a right to Express their opinion. Kaep is mainly a piece of shit because 1.) The pig reference and 2.) Says it is a systematic problem which is the biggslest bunch of bullshit I have ever heard. 3.) The lie that he made a big sacrifice which is a slap in the face to the people that actually did or are making sacrifices every day in this country.

What I have a problem with are the lies and sensationalism perpetrated by the media and the "victim's" families that not only seek to make money off their sons or daughters but incite riots based off false narratives.

Then I'm largely with you especially on 1. He is definitely not the ideologue to get behind.

Ultimately though I think the bulk of people behind him, and specifically Nike, can justify it because Trump and many others have called for them to be forced to stand or fired. I can't rationalize that stance to be honest.

[ArizonaXUGrad]

This is where I get lost. I see what you're saying and believe it is a reasonable, albeit subjective, opinion. The same could be said of the opinion that this is a major issue, no? If your issue with this is that players and the media are misrepresenting the severity of the issue, then you've already acknowledged that it is one in the first place. So what's the big deal? They have a different opinion about the severity, and want to bring light to it. So what? In your eyes, is a player kneeling for the anthem a bigger issue than the one they're protesting about?

It's a tough issue that has many layers.

I am white and will never know what it's like to be a minority every day. I don't have that notion in the back of my head that I could be stopped and harassed because of my race by cops at any time. Yes, this happens. I know blacks and latinos from all walks of life and each have stories of harassment. That wears people down whether you believe it does or not. In this age of social media and cameras on all phones, even things that don't occur often go viral.

When a crime is committed on me, I would hope I would be a better man than to demand revenge. Remember, to err is human to forgive divine. We all went to the same school and know who said that.

The worst issue for me and the one I cannot understand is how we have what I believe a huge minority of police that are problems and why can't the vast majority who do the job correctly police their own? It is almost like they don't want to do it. If they just did it and it was visible, the public might not be so adversarial to police. I think people just want police to be accountable. I believe, if an officer commits battery or a killing that is deemed excessive, that office should be arrested on the spot.

[scoscox]

I completely agree, especially about Dallas. It's a self perpetuating problem. I don't however think saying these protesters should be suppressed as they're protesting what they perceive to be a major issue helps quell tensions either.

I don't think anybody has suggested that as a solution. The criticism is directed at media and certain political leaders handling these situations irresponsibly.

At some point though, when people start sniping police officers from the rooftops, it's no longer a protest and needs to be subdued.

[scoscox]

I believe, if an officer commits battery or a killing that is deemed excessive, that office should be arrested on the spot.

For the most part that is what happens

[xudash]

It's a tough issue that has many layers.

I am white and will never know what it's like to be a minority every day. I don't have that notion in the back of my head that I could be stopped and harassed because of my race by cops at any time. Yes, this happens. I know blacks and latinos from all walks of life and each have stories of harassment. That wears people down whether you believe it does or not. In this age of social media and cameras on all phones, even things that don't occur often go viral.

When a crime is committed on me, I would hope I would be a better man than to demand revenge. Remember, to err is human to forgive divine. We all went to the same school and know who said that.

The worst issue for me and the one I cannot understand is how we have what I believe a huge minority of police that are problems and why can't the vast majority who do the job correctly police their own? It is almost like they don't want to do it. If they just did it and it was visible, the public might not be so adversarial to police. I think people just want police to be accountable. I believe, if an officer commits battery or a killing that is deemed excessive, that office should be arrested on the spot.

I have no problem with an emphasis on clearing out rotten apples that exist in police forces throughout the country. I certainly don't condone police brutality.

I have a problem with how the officer reacted in the following story: https://www.cincinnati.com/story/news/2018/09/04/cincinnati-cop-who-tased-kid-has-several-procedural-violations-police-chief-says/1189843002/

Now, with all that offered, I have a real problem with the lack of focus on what causes children of any race to go rotten themselves. The lack of respect for human life. The meltdown of the American family unit. Not educating young boys and girls about being responsible and about doing things in life that will enable them to lead a productive, positive life.

In fact, I'm probably wrong in how I wrote the above sentence. There is much being done in trying to make society better. It's just that it isn't as newsworthy as guns and bullets, etc.

[94GRAD]

It's a tough issue that has many layers.

I am white and will never know what it's like to be a minority every day. I don't have that notion in the back of my head that I could be stopped and harassed because of my race by cops at any time. Yes, this happens. I know blacks and latinos from all walks of life and each have stories of harassment. That wears people down whether you believe it does or not. In this age of social media and cameras on all phones, even things that don't occur often go viral.

When a crime is committed on me, I would hope I would be a better man than to demand revenge. Remember, to err is human to forgive divine. We all went to the same school and know who said that.

The worst issue for me and the one I cannot understand is how we have what I believe a huge minority of police that are problems and why can't the vast majority who do the job correctly police their own? It is almost like they don't want to do it. If they just did it and it was visible, the public might not be so adversarial to police. I think people just want police to be accountable. I believe, if an officer commits battery or a killing that is deemed excessive, that office should be arrested on the spot.

The F.O.P. does not allow this to happen!

[Caf]

I don't think anybody has suggested that as a solution.

The President did

[ArizonaXUGrad]

Now, with all that offered, I have a real problem with the lack of focus on what causes children of any race to go rotten themselves. The lack of respect for human life. The meltdown of the American family unit. Not educating young boys and girls about being responsible and about doing things in life that will enable them to lead a productive, positive life.

That is a whole other can of worms. I bet if someone looked there may be a correlation with the increase in divorce and an increase in single parents with overall wage stagnation. The number two cause of divorce is money related issues. Wages started to stagnate in the early 70s. As a result of that stagnation, we saw an ever increasing number of women enter the work place to account for the loss of household income. That results in a lot more day care and when the kids are older a lot more time they watch themselves. I would imagine it's worse for households that are poor. How can a parent choose between being active in a child's life and providing for them. Like I said, it is a huge can of worms.

[ArizonaXUGrad]

Why would that lead to a recession?

By the way, recessions will happen every 20 years like clockwork for almost always totally unpredictable reasons and are unavoidable no matter what policy is in place. Overreacting to the natural cycles of the economy only leads to more problems later on down the road.

Not the cause but a result or companies predicting a near future downturn. The number of apartments that are under construction here is crazy.

Yes recessions do happen all the time, but things like ever increasing consumer debt and ever increasing debt terms should be alarming. People casually discuss debt, but nobody is asking why loans for durable goods have increasing terms. 50 years ago, people bought new cars with cash. Car loans now range from 5-7 years. I have heard of 40 year home loans as well. I think I will see a 50 year loan in my lifetime and a 10 year car loan.

[GoMuskies]

40-50 year mortgages are fine, because the asset shouldn't lose value. 10 year car loans? Ick. I sure as hell wouldn't want to be the one providing the money for that!

[Caf]

Yes recessions do happen all the time, but things like ever increasing consumer debt and ever increasing debt terms should be alarming. People casually discuss debt, but nobody is asking why loans for durable goods have increasing terms. 50 years ago, people bought new cars with cash. Car loans now range from 5-7 years. I have heard of 40 year home loans as well. I think I will see a 50 year loan in my lifetime and a 10 year car loan.

Easy credit is probably the only dependable indicator of bubbles and recessions resulting from them. It is present in nearly every recession or collapse in history.

[scoscox]

The President did

Are you talking about the NFL protests? Because yes I agree that Trump is in the wrong to call for that. As far as the old BLM protests, many of those turned violent and calling to quell those protests was appropriate.

[Lloyd Braun]

40-50 year mortgages are fine, because the asset shouldn't lose value. 10 year car loans? Ick. I sure as hell wouldn't want to be the one providing the money for that!

While the asset may not lose value, 40+ year mortgages create a larger pool of people making payments that are mostly towards interest and not principal. That decreases spending long term from the consumer side of things for those that are responsible with spending. For those that are not responsible with spending... yikes.

[GoMuskies]

I think you're crazy to get a 40-50 year mortgage, but I don't think they're dangerous (unless they're 100% financing).

[ArizonaXUGrad]

I think you're crazy to get a 40-50 year mortgage, but I don't think they're dangerous (unless they're 100% financing).

Mortgages of that length create families that are in debt for their entire existence. As an accountant and a cheap accountant, I am 100% against that. However, longer debt terms is the response of industry to prevent a slow down in purchases. If car debt terms were still 3 years, do you think a majority of people would continue to buy at the same pace? Same for homes, put in price increases add in wage stagnation but keep the terms the same and what happens to the market?

[Caf]

Are you talking about the NFL protests? Because yes I agree that Trump is in the wrong to call for that. As far as the old BLM protests, many of those turned violent and calling to quell those protests was appropriate.

Yeah that's what I'm referring to. It's really the only side I'd take on this issue.

And BLM is something totally different. I'm strictly speaking of the NFL which has been the big issue for awhile now. I can't remember the last time I've seen BLM in the news.

[GoMuskies]

Mortgages of that length create families that are in debt for their entire existence.

Which, with an asset that doesn't lose value (or shouldn't), is really fine. It's not that different that renting, except that you're building SOME equity. With just about any other asset...., not so good.

[GoMuskies]

I can't remember the last time I've seen BLM in the news.

The ironically named Antifa have taken their spot in the headlines.

[scoscox]

Yeah that's what I'm referring to. It's really the only side I'd take on this issue.

And BLM is something totally different. I'm strictly speaking of the NFL which has been the big issue for awhile now. I can't remember the last time I've seen BLM in the news.

Okay, gotcha. We were initially talking about the police shooting in dallas, so I wasn't sure.

I couldn't care less about the entire NFL protest/Kaepernick debate.

[Lloyd Braun]

This is fascinating.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/05/opinion/trump-white-house-anonymous-resistance.html

And bananas.

[GoMuskies]

This is fascinating.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/05/opinion/trump-white-house-anonymous-resistance.html

And bananas.

Someone tell General Kelly to get back to work.

[Xville]

This is fascinating.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/05/opinion/trump-white-house-anonymous-resistance.html

And bananas.

All of this may absolutely be true regarding Trump...it doesnt seem far fetched. However, what's the end game here in writing this and sending it to the ny times? Really effing weird.

[Lloyd Braun]

Just a theory but I think the end game is to protect the GOP a bit by saying “see we tried to stop him, we care about our country” when things go awry. The timing is likely directly related to the excerpts from Woodward.

[Caf]

All of this may absolutely be true regarding Trump...it doesnt seem far fetched. However, what's the end game here in writing this and sending it to the ny times? Really effing weird.

I'm betting it's written by someone with higher aspirations and they're using this as an insurance policy on the rest of their careers.

[Xville]

I'm betting it's written by someone with higher aspirations and they're using this as an insurance policy on the rest of their careers.

Possibly.....my other thought is regardless even if it is true, I think its complete chickenshit by that "author"

[ArizonaXUGrad]

Possibly.....my other thought is regardless even if it is true, I think its complete chickenshit by that "author"

I agree, you signed on to work with Trump. You knew what you were getting into, it's not right that you anonymously try to protect yourself after the fact. If it's too hot just get out of the oven and resign.

[cutterX]

Fake or not I am hopeful there are reasonable adults using common sense in the administration while keeping a watchful eye on the shit show.

[Lloyd Braun]

I think Nikes campaign is going to blow cash up in their face.

Looks like you were right (http://fortune.com/2018/09/07/nike-colin-kaepernick-sales/)

[Juice]

American wages unexpectedly climbed in August by the most since the recession ended in 2009 and hiring rose by more than forecast, keeping the Federal Reserve on track to lift interest rates this month and making another hike in December more likely.

Average hourly earnings for private workers increased 2.9 percent from a year earlier, a Labor Department report showed Friday, exceeding all estimates in a Bloomberg survey and the median projection for 2.7 percent. Nonfarm payrolls rose 201,000 from the prior month, topping the median forecast for 190,000 jobs. The unemployment rate was unchanged at 3.9 percent, still near the lowest since the 1960s.

http://fortune.com/2018/09/07/us-wages-jobs-report-august-2018/?utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=fortunemagazine&xid=soc_socialflow_twitter_FORTUNE

[bobbiemcgee]

Whoopee, The inflation rate was 2.1

[ArizonaXUGrad]

Wages have increased this entire time. They just haven’t increased higher than inflation. In other news, the sky is still blue. A .6% spot over inflation isn’t going to move the needle much but it’s something.


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[Xville]

Today, let's not focus on what divides and separates us, but instead remember a moment in time that we came together as a country and as a people.

#Neverforget

[xudash]

today, let's not focus on what divides and separates us, but instead remember a moment in time that we came together as a country and as a people.

#neverforget

yes!

[paulxu]

I think Nikes campaign is going to blow up in their face.

New Nike campaign? (posted for humor)

https://images.dailykos.com/images/589163/large/DnJkL67U4AI7egH_1_.jpg?1537031435

[GoMuskies]

Not sure how this whole Kavanaugh nomination is going to play itself out next week, but what a complete fucking circus.

[bjf123]

Not sure how this whole Kavanaugh nomination is going to play itself out next week, but what a complete fucking circus.

It would be nice if Congress would do their jobs instead of just bickering back and forth and pointing fingers.

The whole sexual assault charge was timed for no reason than to delay the vote on confirmation. The Left had the information for quite awhile and chose to sit on it.

I’m fed up with all of them. We really need term limits for Congress.


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[ArizonaXUGrad]

It would be nice if Congress would do their jobs instead of just bickering back and forth and pointing fingers.

The whole sexual assault charge was timed for no reason than to delay the vote on confirmation. The Left had the information for quite awhile and chose to sit on it.

I’m fed up with all of them. We really need term limits for Congress.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Term limits for Court Justices would fix this also. By the way, Merrick Garland says high, so Republicans can get off their high horses when it comes to crappy politics.

[GoMuskies]

I'm not sure what to think of Ford's accusations, but if this IS a manufactured allegation timed to take full advantage of the PoundMeToo movement, it's orders of magnitude worse than the bullshit the Republicans pulled on Garland. It would be the lowest of the low, honestly.

[Juice]

I'm not sure what to think of Ford's accusations, but if this IS a manufactured allegation timed to take full advantage of the PoundMeToo movement, it's orders of magnitude worse than the bullshit the Republicans pulled on Garland. It would be the lowest of the low, honestly.

I don't know if Ford's accusations are truthful or not but I do know the Democrats used those allegations and the Me Too movement for political motives because they can't win elections.

[paulxu]

I'm not sure what to think of Ford's accusations, but if this IS a manufactured allegation timed to take full advantage of the PoundMeToo movement, it's orders of magnitude worse than the bullshit the Republicans pulled on Garland. It would be the lowest of the low, honestly.

I would agree if this professor decided she would make it all up just to take advantage as you say.
Can't imagine any woman would put herself through all this for that sort of purpose.
Her life would be hell from this point forward if she made it all up.(It will be now anyway)
Having 2 daughters I would err on her side at this point.
A few years ago, Hatch was all for the FBI investigating Anita Hill's allegations. Said is was the right thing to do.
Today...not so much.

[GoMuskies]

Can't imagine any woman would put herself through all this for that sort of purpose.
Her life would be hell from this point forward if she made it all up.(It will be now anyway)


Her life isn't going to be hell. She's an absolute hero in the part of the country where she lives. Hell, if she made the whole thing up she probably becomes MORE of a hero out there.

I've got a daughter....but I've also got two sons. So I'm not erring on anyone's side just for the sake of gender.

[ArizonaXUGrad]

I have no idea if it's true or not. However, if you say it's not true what is this woman's motive? She has a decent job, family, all things are going her way right now. Why would you stir up a nation's animosity just to provide a political hail mary.

If you say it's true, why not have some investigative body look into it? You can then have them both sit in front of congress and testify to the findings. If you don't, it will degrade to he said she said. There would be no accountability and no reason to stick to any kind of truth.

A few things stick out to me, she passed a lie detector test. Yes that is largely meaningless, but she at least believes what she says is true. She and her husband spoke with a therapist about this incident six years ago. The third person named in the room wants nothing to do with sitting and answering congressional questions.

[Caf]

If you say it's true, why not have some investigative body look into it?

At the risk of sounding insensitive, finding out that her allegations are true won't change any minds about his nomination. Any conservatives/republicans here on this board who would be against his nomination if the FBI somehow proves this to the utmost certainty? Any democrats/liberals on this board who supported him in the first place?

If this happened, I'm sorry that it did, but I have a hard time buying that this makes him unfit to be on the court in anyone's mind. The only reason the Republicans have stuttered on this is that it might hurt their appeal to female voters come November.

[GoMuskies]

At the risk of sounding insensitive, finding out that her allegations are true won't change any minds about his nomination. Any conservatives/republicans here on this board who would be against his nomination if the FBI somehow proves this to the utmost certainty?

I hate to be cast with the Republican label (ew), but I'd say I lean conservative. And if her allegations (as stated) are true, I think he should step aside. I mean, she claimed he fondled her against her will and tried to forcibly take off her clothes. If those are true, yeah, he's out. And should be.

[Juice]

I have no idea if it's true or not. However, if you say it's not true what is this woman's motive? She has a decent job, family, all things are going her way right now. Why would you stir up a nation's animosity just to provide a political hail mary.

If you say it's true, why not have some investigative body look into it? You can then have them both sit in front of congress and testify to the findings. If you don't, it will degrade to he said she said. There would be no accountability and no reason to stick to any kind of truth.

A few things stick out to me, she passed a lie detector test. Yes that is largely meaningless, but she at least believes what she says is true. She and her husband spoke with a therapist about this incident six years ago. The third person named in the room wants nothing to do with sitting and answering congressional questions.

The FBI can't investigate this. It's not a federal matter. She gave no major details to investigate other than that it was Kavanaugh 36 years ago, but not a place or date. Also, the FBI has investigated him at least 6 times prior to this.

Also, the lie detector test was administered by HER lawyer in her lawyer's office. That test isn't worth shit in court and shouldn't be with the general public.

I'm open to these allegations being true but she has provided nothing to back up her claims. She has provided contradicting details and the two people she said would corroborate this, in fact did not corroborate her story.

And to Caf's question, if he did then he needs to go away and let the next man/woman up be put up for nomination.

[Caf]

And to Caf's question, if he did then he needs to go away and let the next man/woman up be put up for nomination.

Based on yours and Go' answers, Senate Republicans are going to get dragged through the mud on this. It's either, 'this doesn't matter' or 'we can't prove it'. The 'we can't prove it' defense is really damn weak if they don't even try.

[GoMuskies]

Based on yours and Go' answers, Senate Republicans are going to get dragged through the mud on this. It's either, 'this doesn't matter' or 'we can't prove it'. The 'we can't prove it' defense is really damn weak if they don't even try.

Oh, I don't think they owe it to anyone to try very hard to prove/disprove anything. They should have this hearing next Monday, and if there's no other corroboration/evidence, Kavanaugh should be confirmed. But it WILL give cover to the Dem senators in Republican states who thought they had to vote for Kavanaugh to win in November. It's 100% going to be 51-49 now.

[Juice]

Based on yours and Go' answers, Senate Republicans are going to get dragged through the mud on this. It's either, 'this doesn't matter' or 'we can't prove it'. The 'we can't prove it' defense is really damn weak if they don't even try.

They should have a hearing and Kavanaugh and Ford should both be given the opportunity to answer questions and speak to the Senate.

[Caf]

Oh, I don't think they owe it to anyone to try very hard to prove/disprove anything. They should have this hearing next Monday, and if there's no other corroboration/evidence, Kavanaugh should be confirmed. But it WILL give cover to the Dem senators in Republican states who thought they had to vote for Kavanaugh to win in November. It's 100% going to be 51-49 now.

If the allegation is bad enough that you think he should drop out if true, then how is it not bad enough to think they need to investigate it?

FWIW I agree with what you think the senate should do. I'm just curious what your thoughts are overall. This is something there's no precedent for and instance #1,000,000 of, 'we can't beat the ideas, let's beat the person'. Which I'm pretty tired of seeing.

[GoMuskies]

The guy's been investigated 8.7 million times, approximately. The due diligence has been done. If you put on the brakes NOW, you're just rewarding those who want the process delayed for political reasons (and encouraging similar tactics in the future). A mere allegation isn't enough. Give it a fair hearing. If something comes up, or one of the 11 Republicans on the Judiciary Committee sees enough from the meeting to prevent the appointment from getting out of Committee, then it gets delayed or he is moved aside.

Otherwise, get on with it already and let Collins decide what she's going to do. It's basically up to her.

[ArizonaXUGrad]

The FBI can't investigate this. It's not a federal matter. She gave no major details to investigate other than that it was Kavanaugh 36 years ago, but not a place or date. Also, the FBI has investigated him at least 6 times prior to this.

Also, the lie detector test was administered by HER lawyer in her lawyer's office. That test isn't worth shit in court and shouldn't be with the general public.

I'm open to these allegations being true but she has provided nothing to back up her claims. She has provided contradicting details and the two people she said would corroborate this, in fact did not corroborate her story.

And to Caf's question, if he did then he needs to go away and let the next man/woman up be put up for nomination.

I believe it was given by a retired FBI agent and not her lawyer. Before you freak out get your facts straight. I actually wrote, "investigative body" also. I don't care who, just pick one and tell them to cowboy up and get to work.

The lie detector shows she believes her answers to be true. I understand there are two sides to each story and the truth is in the middle, but we are talking about sexual assault here. The fact that the incident may or may not have taken place decades ago is not germane to the issue. I am not seeing anywhere that states the victim has convoluted facts.

[Juice]

I believe it was given by a retired FBI agent and not her lawyer. Before you freak out get your facts straight. I actually wrote, "investigative body" also. I don't care who, just pick one and tell them to cowboy up and get to work.

The lie detector shows she believes her answers to be true. I understand there are two sides to each story and the truth is in the middle, but we are talking about sexual assault here. The fact that the incident may or may not have taken place decades ago is not germane to the issue. I am not seeing anywhere that states the victim has convoluted facts.

She told her therapist it was 4 guys and didn't name Kavanaugh (not saying that precludes him, just saying she didn't name him). Now she say's it was mainly Kavanaugh with another guy who came into the room. She said two men would corroborate her story. They did not.

[ArizonaXUGrad]

She told her therapist it was 4 guys and didn't name Kavanaugh (not saying that precludes him, just saying she didn't name him). Now she say's it was mainly Kavanaugh with another guy who came into the room. She said two men would corroborate her story. They did not.

Who are the two guys? I am seeing one named and he won't testify at all in front of congress after denying it took place. That is pretty shady, don't say it in public it never took place then follow it with well I just won't say in front of Congress.

What are you so afraid of just by looking into it? Why so quick to attack the victim?

[GoMuskies]

I am seeing one named and he won't testify at all in front of congress after denying it took place. That is pretty shady, don't say it in public it never took place then follow it with well I just won't say in front of Congress.


I will go on record right now that if Congress ever asks me to testify about something that happened at a party when I was 17 years old, they can go fuck themselves. There's nothing shady about that stance.

[ArizonaXUGrad]

I will go on record right now that if Congress ever asks me to testify about something that happened at a party when I was 17 years old, they can go fuck themselves. There's nothing shady about that stance.

What are you scared of? Mark Twain said, if you tell the truth you don't have to remember anything. I believe in that.

If the guy is confident enough to spout it in the media, he should be equally confident in Congress.

[GoMuskies]

Not scared of anything. Just not going to interrupt my life for some he said/she said that happened (or didn't) when I was in high school.

[ArizonaXUGrad]

The last of this for me are all these hypocrites screaming about political hatched jobs as if Garland never saw the floor for nine months and McConnell's reason being because he just didn't want to. The ground work for this crap was laid before we even got here.

If you play dirty don't complain about the mud.

[bjf123]

Of course, all McConnell did was what Schumer said should happen towards the end of a President’s term. Wait for the next President. Personally, I disagree with that position.


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[ArizonaXUGrad]

Of course, all McConnell did was what Schumer said should happen towards the end of a President’s term. Wait for the next President. Personally, I disagree with that position.


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Difference being lame duck versus what 9-10 months? I just googled it, it was a week short of 10 months. That is 21% of his term. That is not towards the end.

[bjf123]

Difference being lame duck versus what 9-10 months? I just googled it, it was a week short of 10 months. That is 21% of his term. That is not towards the end.

Schumer said this in July, 2007, 19 months before the end of Bush's term. That's 40% of Bush's term.

[Xville]

Had 36 years to say something, never did...its bullshit. Never going to prove it one way or the other so the he said she said is a complete waste of time which is no different for Congress. Just vote Collins so I dont have to hear about this stupid crap anymore.

[GenerationX]

It’s obvious that those who say she had all these years to come forward and didn’t proves it must be false haven’t been victims of underage sexual assault (thank the Lord!). You don’t tell anyone. You think it’s your fault and/or that nobody will believe you. I’m not saying she’s necessarily telling the truth, although I tend to believe her because she IS going through hell. She’s getting death threats!. She knew die-hards would react that way and wanted to remain anonymous. Please just open your mind to other possibilities that aren’t partisan.

[xudash]

Time for some Chappaquiddick if this bullsh!t is the new normal.

[Juice]

Who are the two guys? I am seeing one named and he won't testify at all in front of congress after denying it took place. That is pretty shady, don't say it in public it never took place then follow it with well I just won't say in front of Congress.

What are you so afraid of just by looking into it? Why so quick to attack the victim?

Can't the same be said of the victim? She wanted to testify and now she doesn't? Now I understand there is more pressure for her but her attorney requested the hearing. And the Senate Republicans even offered to meet her in private in California.

[bobbiemcgee]

I think they could give her the 3 days the FBI investigated for Hill. What's the rush? This guy could be on the bench for 40 yrs.! We could end up with another moron like Thomas. Has he even said anything yet?

[scoscox]

It’s obvious that those who say she had all these years to come forward and didn’t proves it must be false haven’t been victims of underage sexual assault (thank the Lord!). You don’t tell anyone. You think it’s your fault and/or that nobody will believe you. I’m not saying she’s necessarily telling the truth, although I tend to believe her because she IS going through hell. She’s getting death threats!. She knew die-hards would react that way and wanted to remain anonymous. Please just open your mind to other possibilities that aren’t partisan.

It would certainly help if she could remember any of the details

[scoscox]

I believe it was given by a retired FBI agent and not her lawyer. Before you freak out get your facts straight.

It was reported on CNN that it was administered by her lawyer in the lawyers' offices.

[GenerationX]

It would certainly help if she could remember any of the details

She’s been very clear about the details...

She went to the bathroom; got pushed into a bedroom by him; he got on top of her, aggressively groping her; when she screamed, he forcefully covered her mouth, causing her to fear for her life; the other dude jumped on top of them, allowing her to get free.

The logistical details are obviously not as memorable after all these years. But she most definitely remembers what happened. When you think back to memorable times in your life, do you remember all of the surrounding details? I’ve had a couple of traumatic experiences around that age, and I can recall exactly what happened and generally where it was, but not specifically.

Also, there have been some classmates who say there was a buzz about this in the following days.

[bjf123]

She’s been very clear about the details...

She went to the bathroom; got pushed into a bedroom by him; he got on top of her, aggressively groping her; when she screamed, he forcefully covered her mouth, causing her to fear for her life; the other dude jumped on top of them, allowing her to get free.

And the other dude has said it didn’t happen.


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[Xville]

It’s obvious that those who say she had all these years to come forward and didn’t proves it must be false haven’t been victims of underage sexual assault (thank the Lord!). You don’t tell anyone. You think it’s your fault and/or that nobody will believe you. I’m not saying she’s necessarily telling the truth, although I tend to believe her because she IS going through hell. She’s getting death threats!. She knew die-hards would react that way and wanted to remain anonymous. Please just open your mind to other possibilities that aren’t partisan.

First of all, my opinion of this doesn’t have anything to do with politics. Secondly, no thankfully I was never a victim, however if she didn’t tell anyone besides supposedly her therapist which who knows if that is true, then why wait until now when the attention is at its highest point. That’s why I think it’s bullshit.

I feel horrible for the victims of assault, but having a son and a daughter of my own, I am just as fearful for my daughter being a victim as my son being a victim or being wrongfully accused by someone and him not being able to prove it did not happen. All anyone has to do anymore is say it happened and that person is guilty I’m the court of public opinion.

[Caf]

First of all, my opinion of this doesn’t have anything to do with politics. Secondly, no thankfully I was never a victim, however if she didn’t tell anyone besides supposedly her therapist which who knows if that is true, then why wait until now when the attention is at its highest point. That’s why I think it’s bullshit.

Then why does she want an investigation? If you think she's lying you should be praying for an investigation to clear Kavanaugh's name.

[Xville]

Then why does she want an investigation? If you think she's lying you should be praying for an investigation to clear Kavanaugh's name.

It has been 36 years..... pray tell how an investigation is going to prove one way or the other?

Personally, I think her agenda is pretty clear here.

[Caf]

It has been 36 years..... pray tell how an investigation is going to prove one way or the other?

Personally, I think her agenda is pretty clear here.

I'll ask again, why does she want an investigation if she's lying? If everyone is so sure it's a bluff then they should want to call it, not dismiss it. Like I said before, 'we can't prove it' only works if they try to.

[Xville]

I'll ask again, why does she want an investigation if she's lying? If everyone is so sure it's a bluff then they should want to call it, not dismiss it. Like I said before, 'we can't prove it' only works if they try to.

She doesn’t want an investigation done. She doesn’t want to testify. Her lawyers are saying she will testify if the fbi does an investigation which they know the fbi won’t do../this is just a way for her to get out of everything.

[GoMuskies]

I'll ask again, why does she want an investigation if she's lying?

Do you think there's even a 1% chance an investigation would actually clear Kavanaugh even if he was at home asleep in his bed when this allegedly occurred 36 years ago? You can't prove a negative. Particularly when the details provided are so blurry. How can an investigation prove anything that exonerates Kavanaugh when there's no time, date or place for the alleged incident?

I don't see how Ford has anything to lose in an investigation.

[Caf]

Do you think there's even a 1% chance an investigation would actually clear Kavanaugh even if he was at home asleep in his bed when this allegedly occurred 36 years ago? You can't prove a negative. Particularly when the details provided are so blurry. How can an investigation prove anything that exonerates Kavanaugh when there's no time, date or place for the alleged incident?

I don't see how Ford has anything to lose in an investigation.

They will never be able to clear his name. This stain won't go away unless they find she's been paid off or something. I agree you can't prove a negative, but they should be trying to prove a positive. If they can't find any evidence that this actually happened, then that's that.

The alternative is pushing this through and living with the implication that sexual assault doesn't matter.

[GoMuskies]

The alternative is pushing this through and living with the implication that sexual assault doesn't matter.

As long as they have the hearing on Monday (or invite Ford to a hearing if she refuses), I think they'll have done enough to appease the people they need to appease. The people who are against Kavanaugh no matter what were going to make this argument no matter what they do, and they're only interested in delay anyway.

I'd have a bit more sympathy for this "what's the rush?", "let's fully investigate", etc., etc. if the honorable Senator from the State of California had raised this when she received it. The fact that she waited until after the Judiciary Committee hearings makes it look like a tactic. And that cannot be rewarded.

[Caf]

The fact that she waited until after the Judiciary Committee hearings makes it look like a tactic. And that cannot be rewarded.

I agree, but I'd be shocked if she shows up to testify. She will probably cite that it is traumatic to discuss in public, which would beg the question why she came forward in the first place, but is otherwise fair to say. I don't see Collins, and definitely not the public, writing off her claim because she won't testify in front of the entire world.

[GoMuskies]

The Committee has offered to have her testify behind closed doors, too.

[ArizonaXUGrad]

FBI actually looked into Hill’s stuff 25 years ago. All Trump has to do is ask them to do it again. Spend 3-4 days interviewing and it’s done. She comes and testifies and that is that. What are they afraid of?

What is her agenda? Does she want death threats? How about trumpets burn her house down like one of Moore’s accusers.


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[GoMuskies]

It's a delay tactic. Supreme Court session starts October 1. Tactics cannot be rewarded.

Who knows what her agenda is, but she's a hero to half the country (and 99% of her neighbors). She might enjoy that.

Or it could be true. She has Feinstein to blame for making this look like nothing but a delay tactic.

[Caf]

It's a delay tactic. Supreme Court session starts October 1. Tactics cannot be rewarded.

Who knows what her agenda is, but she's a hero to half the country (and 99% of her neighbors). She might enjoy that.

Or it could be true. She has Feinstein to blame for making this look like nothing but a delay tactic.

What Feinstein has done is definitely a tactic. In my reading of this, I leave that blame with Feinstein and not the accuser.

Another risk to this whole thing is that they schedule the vote and some enormous evidence comes out right before it. Seeing how this has played out, I wouldn't feel comfortable moving forward if I was the leadership.

[Caf]

Seeing how this has played out, I wouldn't feel comfortable moving forward if I was the leadership.

Dems plot massive campaign if Kavanaugh falls - Axios (https://www.axios.com/brett-kavanaugh-confirmation-democrats-2018-midterm-elections-3ce55ebf-dc62-46b9-8ffa-bb1a7fe7cb18.html)

[GoMuskies]

Dems plot massive campaign if Kavanaugh falls - Axios (https://www.axios.com/brett-kavanaugh-confirmation-democrats-2018-midterm-elections-3ce55ebf-dc62-46b9-8ffa-bb1a7fe7cb18.html)

I agree 100% with this: "Smart brevity ... Jeffrey Toobin on CNN: "If she refuses to testify on Monday, Kavanaugh is getting confirmed." (hat tip: Brian Stelter)"

I also 100% agree that the Notre Dame woman is up next if Kavanaugh goes down to MeToo. Which may make liberals wish they'd have confirmed Kavanaugh.

[Caf]

After reading that I think the Dems have the GOP cornered on this. Either they take down Kavanaugh or they use this as a very timely nationwide campaign point for the mid-terms. This is gonna be nasty.

[GoMuskies]

I think they might be overplaying their hand. The Democrat base was already engaged. They might be awakening the other side for midterms with perceived "dirty tricks".

It is definitely going to be Ashley Judd nasty.

[ArizonaXUGrad]

It's a delay tactic. Supreme Court session starts October 1. Tactics cannot be rewarded.

Who knows what her agenda is, but she's a hero to half the country (and 99% of her neighbors). She might enjoy that.

Or it could be true. She has Feinstein to blame for making this look like nothing but a delay tactic.

Merrick Garland, tactics cannot be rewarded.

[GoMuskies]

Merrick Garland, tactics cannot be rewarded.

It should be pretty clear by now that I'm with you on Merrick. There is little doubt in my mind this is Democrats not rewarding the Republicans for their tactics on Garland.

[Caf]

Maybe if the entire Congress simultaneously turns over we can get out of this prisoner's dilemma hell.

[94GRAD]

Maybe if the entire Congress simultaneously turns over we can get out of this prisoner's dilemma hell.

Only if we replace them with more centrists!

[ArizonaXUGrad]

If somehow Kentuckians can get rid of McConnell, I think the Senate would be better for it. Ryan leaving the House is a huge improvement. You can toss in Feinstein/Pelosi in there also. There is too much career and long careers in Congress.

The beauty of Judge Barrett is that she is already out spoken anti-abortion. Polls are clear in the US, people do not want an outright ban on abortions. Technically, there really was never a ban. The wealthy just had to get a doctor to sign off on it and it was a done deal. It was a ban on poor and middle class abortions.

[bobbiemcgee]

If Abortion goes back to the states, you'll just have to hop on a bus. That's the way it was in the seventies. Red state to Blue state. Planned Parenthood will be buying the tickets.

[Juice]

FBI actually looked into Hill’s stuff 25 years ago. All Trump has to do is ask them to do it again. Spend 3-4 days interviewing and it’s done. She comes and testifies and that is that. What are they afraid of?

What is her agenda? Does she want death threats? How about trumpets burn her house down like one of Moore’s accusers.


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Hill was a federal employee. And they're not afraid of anything. They've given her options for her to testify whether in public or private. She won't do it.

[Caf]

Hill was a federal employee. And they're not afraid of anything. They've given her options for her to testify whether in public or private. She won't do it.

She now says she would testify later next week. Unclear if the committee will move with the monday schedule.

[GoMuskies]

She now says she would testify later next week. Unclear if the committee will move with the monday schedule.

They'll miss getting Kavanaugh in for the start of the new term, but if she's willing to come in next week they should accommodate.

[ArizonaXUGrad]

Roe was '73 so most of the 70s people didn't have to hop on a bus. '67 Colorado was the first state to decriminalize abortion in cases of rape/incest/woman's health. Before that involved draconian abortion boards and courts where women were grilled about their sexual history.

Do your homework and see what pre-Roe life was like for women.

[GoMuskies]

Do your homework and see what pre-Roe life was like for women.

And what post-Roe life is like for fetuses.

[Xville]

Roe was '73 so most of the 70s people didn't have to hop on a bus. '67 Colorado was the first state to decriminalize abortion in cases of rape/incest/woman's health. Before that involved draconian abortion boards and courts where women were grilled about their sexual history.

Do your homework and see what pre-Roe life was like for women.

Oh those poor women and men who had sex and then didnt want to deal with the consequences of their actions.

[noteggs]

Speaking of abortion, anybody planning to see the Gosnell movie that’s coming out soon?

[ArizonaXUGrad]

And what post-Roe life is like for fetuses.

Pre-Roe live for fetuses in rich women got aborted. Why is access only ok for rich folk?

[ArizonaXUGrad]

Oh those poor women and men who had sex and then didnt want to deal with the consequences of their actions.

Nothing with the men also? The fact that it was so denigrating and stigmatizing for women made this decision. A bit of history and knowledge of it will quickly show you what was really going on.

[Xville]

Nothing with the men also? The fact that it was so denigrating and stigmatizing for women made this decision. A bit of history and knowledge of it will quickly show you what was really going on.

First of all, I wrote "men" in my sentence. Second, I have knowledge and know history so you can stop with your talking down to me like I'm a child. Personal responsibility...make a choice, deal with the consequences. I dont give a shit what it was like for those women or men...you make a choice to have sex, you deal with whatever consequences comes out of that choice.

Now rape, ok you didnt have a choice.

[GoMuskies]

Pre-Roe live for fetuses in rich women got aborted. Why is access only ok for rich folk?

I am 100% willing to take that privilege away from the rich. Glad we're on the same page.

[boozehound]

I feel horrible for the victims of assault, but having a son and a daughter of my own, I am just as fearful for my daughter being a victim as my son being a victim or being wrongfully accused by someone and him not being able to prove it did not happen. All anyone has to do anymore is say it happened and that person is guilty I’m the court of public opinion.

Wait - you are as fearful of your son being wrongfully accused of sexual assault as you are of your daughter actually being a victim of sexual assault? Holy shit!

[Xville]

Wait - you are as fearful of your son being wrongfully accused of sexual assault as you are of your daughter actually being a victim of sexual assault? Holy shit!

In today's day and age, yes. That's the crazy world we now live in. That doesnt mean I think the odds are the same, it just speaks to the time in which we all live.

[Caf]

In today's day and age, yes. That's the crazy world we now live in. That doesnt mean I think the odds are the same, it just speaks to the time in which we all live.

It kind of does....

[boozehound]

In today's day and age, yes. That's the crazy world we now live in. That doesnt mean I think the odds are the same, it just speaks to the time in which we all live.

I don't know what this means. Are you drawing an equivalency between the likelihood of the event, or the severity? Either one is indefensible, in my opinion. Actual sexual assault happens far more frequently than false accusations, and I would have to imagine that a woman actually being sexually assaulted is far worse than a man being wrongly accused.

[ArizonaXUGrad]

First of all, I wrote "men" in my sentence. Second, I have knowledge and know history so you can stop with your talking down to me like I'm a child. Personal responsibility...make a choice, deal with the consequences. I dont give a shit what it was like for those women or men...you make a choice to have sex, you deal with whatever consequences comes out of that choice.

Now rape, ok you didnt have a choice.

Except, personal responsibility aka abstinence just doesn’t work and it has proven time and time again to fail just like trickle down economics.

Contraception works, education works, ban abortion and we regress into a theocracy we fear.


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[Xville]

Except, personal responsibility aka abstinence just doesn’t work and it has proven time and time again to fail just like trickle down economics.

Contraception works, education works, ban abortion and we regress into a theocracy we fear.


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You just don’t get it. Personal responsibility is not abstinence, it is accepting the consequences of your actions aka not committing murder.

You are always so concerned with the less fortunate, yet you are perfectly fine killing the innocent.

[GoMuskies]

We already outlaw killing. We must already live in a theocracy.

[ArizonaXUGrad]

We already outlaw killing. We must already live in a theocracy.

Science says otherwise and so does the supreme court. It really annoys me when people scream for our political leaders to find common ground yet won't cede to common ground on this topic. I will, I agree with a ban past 20-4 weeks except for extreme medical reasons. This would align us with the rest of the civilized world.

Back alley, abortion panels, identifying women as baby makers, this is not way to regress. We need to move in a forward direction and keep the decision between a woman/spouse/partner and her doctor. You don't need to force your choice on someone else, that is vanity. I would never advise that route, but I also don't have the gall to think my choice is the best for 330M Americans. Let's remember, the same anti-abortion people also agree with an amendment to define marriage between a man or woman. Theocracies are all bad, except when it's your religion making the rules.

[GoMuskies]

Science says otherwise and so does the supreme court.

Science and the Supreme Court say we don't already outlaw killing? That's weird. I'll have to check into that.

The rest of your strawmen are a severe fire hazard.

[bjf123]

Wait - you are as fearful of your son being wrongfully accused of sexual assault as you are of your daughter actually being a victim of sexual assault? Holy shit!

I don’t have kids, so I have no dog in this fight. If I had a son, I would be equally afraid for him. In today’s society, the guy is presumed guilty until proven innocent. If there no physical evidence or witnesses, you can’t prove you didn’t do something when someone says you did. Brett Kavanaugh is a prime example. Even if he’s confirmed, a large percentage of the population is sure he’s a sexual predator. If he’s not confirmed, his career is over. All based on the fuzzy recollection of one person.

Now, if we suddenly get dozens of women coming forward with corroborating witness showing a pattern of that behavior from him, that’s a completely different matter, e.g. Harvey Weinstein.


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[Xville]

Science says otherwise and so does the supreme court. It really annoys me when people scream for our political leaders to find common ground yet won't cede to common ground on this topic. I will, I agree with a ban past 20-4 weeks except for extreme medical reasons. This would align us with the rest of the civilized world.

Back alley, abortion panels, identifying women as baby makers, this is not way to regress. We need to move in a forward direction and keep the decision between a woman/spouse/partner and her doctor. You don't need to force your choice on someone else, that is vanity. I would never advise that route, but I also don't have the gall to think my choice is the best for 330M Americans. Let's remember, the same anti-abortion people also agree with an amendment to define marriage between a man or woman. Theocracies are all bad, except when it's your religion making the rules.

Way to lump in an entire group of people....I believe abortion is murder, as far as marriage i don't give a crap if you want to marry the same sex or a tree, more power to you.

[Caf]

I don’t have kids, so I have no dog in this fight. If I had a son, I would be equally afraid for him. In today’s society, the guy is presumed guilty until proven innocent. If there no physical evidence or witnesses, you can’t prove you didn’t do something when someone says you did. Brett Kavanaugh is a prime example. Even if he’s confirmed, a large percentage of the population is sure he’s a sexual predator. If he’s not confirmed, his career is over. All based on the fuzzy recollection of one person.

Now, if we suddenly get dozens of women coming forward with corroborating witness showing a pattern of that behavior from him, that’s a completely different matter, e.g. Harvey Weinstein.


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Name 10 other examples.

[ArizonaXUGrad]

Science and the Supreme Court say we don't already outlaw killing? That's weird. I'll have to check into that.

The rest of your strawmen are a severe fire hazard.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/abortion-is-a-problem-to-be-solved-not-a-moral-issue/

Good article to discuss what is going on and some light reading educated me to the fact that the first laws on the books in the US regarding abortions hit in the 1820s. Abortions aren't going anywhere. Legislating what you do with your body and what you do in the bedroom isn't necessary and morally questionable.

[GoMuskies]

I'm not sure why you're quoting my post given that what you've posted has nothing to do with mine. But happy Friday!

[boozehound]

I don’t have kids, so I have no dog in this fight. If I had a son, I would be equally afraid for him. In today’s society, the guy is presumed guilty until proven innocent. If there no physical evidence or witnesses, you can’t prove you didn’t do something when someone says you did. Brett Kavanaugh is a prime example. Even if he’s confirmed, a large percentage of the population is sure he’s a sexual predator. If he’s not confirmed, his career is over. All based on the fuzzy recollection of one person.

Now, if we suddenly get dozens of women coming forward with corroborating witness showing a pattern of that behavior from him, that’s a completely different matter, e.g. Harvey Weinstein.


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It's a dangerous narrative that leads people to think that false allegations of sexual assault are (1) anywhere close to as common as actual sexual assault and (2) are anywhere near as serious. I understand that we (unfortunately) live in a post-facts world where we all just make shit up to justify our bias, but still...

In most instances there is nothing to gain for a woman to falsely accuse a man of sexual assault. There are unbalanced people in this world who do crazy things, so I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but acting like it is some kind of epidemic is just the kind of batshit crazy narrative that gets old white men whipped up into a frenzy of bias confirmation and false rage.

In the specific case of Kavanaugh, however, I think it is right to have some suspicion and make sure that the accuser and her motives are properly vetted as there are a variety of parties who would have something significant to gain from a false accusation. We should treat the accuser with respect, but we can't just take it at face value without getting the facts as straight as possible.

In the specific case of Kavanaugh, while I don't want to see him confirmed, I do think it's important the we fully 'vet' the accuser and

[Xville]

It's a dangerous narrative that leads people to think that false allegations of sexual assault are (1) anywhere close to as common as actual sexual assault and (2) are anywhere near as serious. I understand that we (unfortunately) live in a post-facts world where we all just make shit up to justify our bias, but still...

In most instances there is nothing to gain for a woman to falsely accuse a man of sexual assault. There are unbalanced people in this world who do crazy things, so I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but acting like it is some kind of epidemic is just the kind of batshit crazy narrative that gets old white men whipped up into a frenzy of bias confirmation and false rage.

In the specific case of Kavanaugh, however, I think it is right to have some suspicion and make sure that the accuser and her motives are properly vetted as there are a variety of parties who would have something significant to gain from a false accusation. We should treat the accuser with respect, but we can't just take it at face value without getting the facts as straight as possible.

In the specific case of Kavanaugh, while I don't want to see him confirmed, I do think it's important the we fully 'vet' the accuser and

No one said it happened on equal footing. To say though that someone being falsely accused is not as serious is complete bs. Just as a victim's life can be permanently altered physically and or.mentally, the falsely accused can be as well.

[Juice]

We will see how this is reported:


Keith Ellison says his accuser fabricated domestic violence abuse story, can't be sure others won't 'cook up' allegations
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2018/09/22/keith-ellison-says-his-accuser-fabricated-domestic-violence-abuse-story-cant-be-sure-others-wont-cook-up-allegations.html

[ArizonaXUGrad]

There will now be the story that they are all faked. I honestly believe Kavanaugh got drunk and went too far with that girl to get to second base and probably tried twice. The question for me is whether that precludes him from the most prestigious appointment for his field.

Marginalia stuff, add this with the money stuff that never added up. Add in his crazy college stuff and how women were advised to dress to get a clerkship with him. The guy just seems like a massive creep. He isn’t Moore level creep.


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[paulxu]

I'm guessing he may truly not remember looking at how much they apparently partied and talked about it.

What sticks out to me is that she is begging the FBI to investigate (which they certainly could do if asked). If you are making it all up (for whatever reason) that's the last thing you would want.

And the fact that he and the committee don't want the FBI to investigate, and won't wait a few days for that, is just as telling.

[Juice]

I'm guessing he may truly not remember looking at how much they apparently partied and talked about it.

What sticks out to me is that she is begging the FBI to investigate (which they certainly could do if asked). If you are making it all up (for whatever reason) that's the last thing you would want.

And the fact that he and the committee don't want the FBI to investigate, and won't wait a few days for that, is just as telling.

He has already been through 6 background checks by the FBI.

[paulxu]

So what's one more with a new allegation? Couple days.

(see Merrick Garland)

[ArizonaXUGrad]

He has already been through 6 background checks by the FBI.

This has been gone over, background checks go back 7-10 years only. I think this did happen and this lady is going out in a limb that he did it a couple of times. I think she is hoping to get 2-3 more ladies to jump on.


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[Juice]

This has been gone over, background checks go back 7-10 years only. I think this did happen and this lady is going out in a limb that he did it a couple of times. I think she is hoping to get 2-3 more ladies to jump on.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

And how is the FBI supposed to investigate a local matter that occurred 36 years ago when the only person that can speak to it is her and she won't talk?

[bjf123]

There will now be the story that they are all faked. I honestly believe Kavanaugh got drunk and went too far with that girl to get to second base and probably tried twice. The question for me is whether that precludes him from the most prestigious appointment for his field.

In my opinion, it should not. If you go back to what happened in high school and college in the 70s and early 80s, it would probably preclude a LOT of people from ever holding public office. How many guys tried to cop a feel at a party after everyone had been drinking? I can honestly say I did not, but I was a very shy and boring guy who was uncomfortable talking to most girls.


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[paulxu]

And how is the FBI supposed to investigate a local matter that occurred 36 years ago when the only person that can speak to it is her and she won't talk?

What does this even mean? She's asked for the FBI to interview her, others with contemporaneous knowledge, etc.
They investigate "background" for candidates. They could easily do it. (See Clarence Thomas)

[ArizonaXUGrad]

What does this even mean? She's asked for the FBI to interview her, others with contemporaneous knowledge, etc.
They investigate "background" for candidates. They could easily do it. (See Clarence Thomas)

The fact that people say they haven’t is just crap. FBI has done this in the past. A few days of interviews and both will have to answer to the findings. I don’t see this as a problem.


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[paulxu]

I think the political calculation is fairly simple.
If they call/hear no other witnesses to the committee, if they do no independent investigation which might provide corroboration,...they are left with the old he said/she said.
Simple then to vote and say they believe him, not her.

[bjf123]

I think the political calculation is fairly simple.

Just like the political calculation Feinstein did by not disclosing this information until right before they were to vote on confirmation. It’s really sad that both parties put party and power above everything else.


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[noteggs]

It’s really sad that both parties put party and power above everything else.


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Well put! Unfortunately we still reward this behavior.

[scoscox]

I think the political calculation is fairly simple.
If they call/hear no other witnesses to the committee, if they do no independent investigation which might provide corroboration,...they are left with the old he said/she said.
Simple then to vote and say they believe him, not her.

I mean, both witnesses have already denied it right? And she's already said she can't remember the exact date or location, so an investigation is practically impossible.

[scoscox]

Check that. All 4 witnesses she's named have now denied it. The female classmate says she wasn't there and doesn't even know Kavanaugh.

[STL_XUfan]

How many guys tried to cop a feel at a party after everyone had been drinking?

https://discourse-cdn-sjc1.com/gamekult/forum/uploads/default/original/3X/c/a/ca6f8d36f5f6939376e136d1b3f86e40817a3175.gif

We can all at least agree that this type of behavior isn't ok right...right?

[Juice]

New witness. "Ms. Keyser does not know Mr. Kavanaugh and she has no recollection of ever being at a party or gathering where he was present, with, or without, Dr. Ford."
The lawyer acknowledged to CNN that Keyser is a lifelong friend of Ford's.
https://twitter.com/evanperez/status/1043676503194718208?s=21

[bjf123]

We can all at least agree that this type of behavior isn't ok right...right?

Right.


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[Caf]

If you go back to what happened in high school and college in the 70s and early 80s, it would probably preclude a LOT of people from ever holding public office. How many guys tried to cop a feel at a party after everyone had been drinking?

I had to go back to make sure, but somehow you were the same guy who said this:


I don’t have kids, so I have no dog in this fight. If I had a son, I would be equally afraid for him. In today’s society, the guy is presumed guilty until proven innocent.

Man you have a perplexing view of sexual assault in our society.

[bjf123]

Not quite sure the point you’re trying to make. Those two statements are mutually exclusive. I will say that the definition of sexual assault has changed over the years. 30 years ago, a wolf whistle or pat on the rear were seen as the guy being a jerk. Today, those are considered a sexual assault.

In today’s society, you can have consensual sex with someone and, after the fact, the other person can decide it was a mistake and claim a sexual assault or rape. I’m sorry, but that’s wrong.

Don’t know if you live in Cincinnati now, but former county prosecutor, Mike Allen, now a criminal defense attorney, has filed multiple lawsuits against local schools where the male student was suspended or expelled in that scenario. That would be the fear I’d have if I had a college aged son.


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[Caf]

Not quite sure the point you’re trying to make. Those two statements are mutually exclusive. I will say that the definition of sexual assault has changed over the years. 30 years ago, a wolf whistle or pat on the rear were seen as the guy being a jerk. Today, those are considered a sexual assault.

In today’s society, you can have consensual sex with someone and, after the fact, the other person can decide it was a mistake and claim a sexual assault or rape. I’m sorry, but that’s wrong.

Don’t know if you live in Cincinnati now, but former county prosecutor, Mike Allen, now a criminal defense attorney, has filed multiple lawsuits against local schools where the male student was suspended or expelled in that scenario. That would be the fear I’d have if I had a college aged son.


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The point I'm trying to make is not that they're mutually exclusive, but that your view is clearly inconsistent and being bent when convenient. In this discussion you've managed to say that sexual assault shouldn't preclude Kavanaugh basically because everyone was doing it. However, not enough people are doing it today to make someone more afraid of sexual assault for a daughter than they are of wrongful allegations against a son.

I think what you're referring to as "in today's society", is just college campuses. Which is a problem, but no where near the scale of sexual assault on campuses. These schools rightfully have had the pants sued off of them. Not that comparing the two is useful or worthwhile in anyway whatsoever. They are both bad and one does not diminish the other.

[Caf]

Senate Democrats Investigate a New Allegation of Sexual Misconduct, from Brett Kavanaugh’s College Years (https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/senate-democrats-investigate-a-new-allegation-of-sexual-misconduct-from-the-supreme-court-nominee-brett-kavanaughs-college-years-deborah-ramirez)

[Xville]

Senate Democrats Investigate a New Allegation of Sexual Misconduct, from Brett Kavanaugh’s College Years (https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/senate-democrats-investigate-a-new-allegation-of-sexual-misconduct-from-the-supreme-court-nominee-brett-kavanaughs-college-years-deborah-ramirez)

This is the kind of crap I'm talking about when I say I'm fearful for my son....this kind of stuff is complete bs...such a good catholic girl getting blitzed out of her mind at a college frat house does something she feels guilty doing so starts blaming someone. I heard about this kind of crap happen in college when a girl would get drunk underage, do something with consent but then next morning feel guilty about it, and oh the guy tricked me etc.