Politics Thread

[xu95]

A lot of people get murdered that I don't know, but I still want to impose laws on the people who murdered them.

xu95

[GoMuskies]

A lot of people get murdered that I don't know, but I still want to impose laws on the people who murdered them.

xu95

But by making murder illegal, you're giving the person to be killed more rights than the person killing them, because they cannot choose to kill that person. Even if that person is quite annoying.

[ChicagoX]

A lot of people get murdered that I don't know, but I still want to impose laws on the people who murdered them.

xu95

Are those people being gestated in a woman's body in the first or second term of a pregnancy? I wish Republicans cared about the poor, the sick and minorities as much as they do fetuses. This country would be a much better place.

[GoMuskies]

I wish Republicans cared about the poor, the sick and minorities as much as they do fetuses.

You'll probably want to check the stats on who gets aborted.

[XU 87]

Where did I call anyone stupid? I think I've made valid arguments that not giving fetuses more rights than the woman carrying them is a pretty sound argument. Seriously, how does abortion have a negative affect on your life? You wish to impose laws on women you don't know and force them to go through with a pregnancy they don't want. What kind of medieval, religious crap is that?

You're right. You never used the word "stupid." Instead, you said that "only religiously brain washed men" oppose abortion rights.

Either way, you're not making a fact based argument. Unless you have proof that "only religious brain washed men" oppose abortion rights, you're instead making a generalized, personal and emotional attack against anyone who disagrees with you on this issue.

[ChicagoX]

You'll probably want to check the stats on who gets aborted.

Which is a deep irony considering that as soon as a minority baby is born, Republicans want nothing to do with them. As George Carlin once said, "If you're preborn, you're fine. If you're pre-schooled, you're f*cked!"

[GoMuskies]

Which is a deep irony

Is it, though? I don't think there is a big push to legalize the killing of the poor, the sick and minorities after they are born.

[ChicagoX]

You're right. You never used the word "stupid." Instead, you said that "only religious brain washed men" oppose abortion rights.

Either way, you're not making a fact based argument. Unless you have proof that "only religious brain washed men" oppose abortion rights, you're instead making a generalized, personal and emotional attack against anyone who disagrees with you on this issue.

Religiously brainwashed men do seem to be the overwhelming majority of politicians who want abortion banned. Specifically, white, Republican males in Congress or state legislatures. How about if we let women make these type of decisions since they are the ones who actually have to carry a child to term? Men making medical decisions for women is ridiculous. Pure male ego...

[ChicagoX]

Is it, though? I don't think there is a big push to legalize the killing of the poor, the sick and minorities after they are born.

Of course there is not a push to kill the poor, sick or minorities; Republicans simply don't care about them because they're not the GOP base and they don't have enough money to pay off a politician.

[GoMuskies]

Of course there is not a push to kill the poor, sick or minorities

Got it. So it was a non sequitur.

[XU 87]

Religiously brainwashed men do seem to be the overwhelming majority of politicians who want abortion banned. Specifically, White, Republican males in Congress or state legislatures. How about if we let women make these type of decisions since they are the ones who actually have to carry a child to term? Men making medical decisions for women is ridiculous. Pure male ego...

https://news.gallup.com/poll/1576/abortion.aspx

Do do you think that 48% or the U.S. population consists of "religiously brain washed men".

Tip- in the future, try making factual arguments, not emotional rants against the people you disagree with.

[ChicagoX]

https://news.gallup.com/poll/1576/abortion.aspx

Do do you think that 48% or the U.S. population consists of "religiously brain washed men".

Tip- in the future, try making factual arguments, not emotional rants against the people you disagree with.

I was speaking specifically about Congress and state legislatures since they are the ones making the laws. Have you seen a picture of GOP members of Congress? White as hell and male as hell. Not much diversity in that bunch.

[Strange Brew]

On what basis do you make this claim?

Results...

[Caf]

Results...

There's pretty extensive evidence that austerity is disastrous for a recovery.

[Strange Brew]

There's pretty extensive evidence that austerity is disastrous for a recovery.

Not really the countries that imposed austerity were not that much worse off than the US that spent Trillions for 8 years of stagnation.

Oh, and there's a wide gap between the "stimulus" and austerity. It's called sanity which was delivered post 2010.

[ArizonaXUGrad]

Religious Europe?!? WTF? Europe is the least religious place on the planet.

Been to Europe much? I think not, don’t confuse a very religious continent that legislates things in a progressive manner with a non-religious one.

Your comment is either intellectually dishonest or you simply have no idea what is going on over there.


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[ArizonaXUGrad]

Some never stop amazing me, how can you do vehemently want laws on the books regulating a women’s choice on one hand and on the other take away or seek to limit lifelines to help that woman out? Not only that, but let’s go ahead and make sure healthcare isn’t even remotely close to affordable.

It feels like some here just want an over population of poor and uneducated good little worker bees. Since they won’t ever be able to make enough to ever stop working you might as well start dumping regulations to enforce work place safety, worker’s rights, clean air/water, etc. all that should keep the herd thin enough to control yet big enough to keep unemployment down.


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[GoMuskies]

Your comment is either intellectually dishonest or you simply have no idea what is going on over there.


It's not a particularly controversial statement. With the exception of Italy, Europe is incredibly secular.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2015/04/14/map-these-are-the-worlds-least-religious-countries/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.d7cfe78a23df

[X-man]

Results...

WTF? Your answer makes no sense. How can you talk about Obama's "results" when the Republicans prevented him from implementing the kinds of fiscal policy needed to expedite the recovery? And please explain why large deficits are now fine to Republicans but were incredibly dangerous to the economy under Obama.

[X-man]

As for your use of the words "objective analysts"- HAHAHAHA. I think you meant to use the words "liberal analysts".

No, I should have used the word "economists".

[Caf]

Not really the countries that imposed austerity were not that much worse off than the US that spent Trillions for 8 years of stagnation.

Oh, and there's a wide gap between the "stimulus" and austerity. It's called sanity which was delivered post 2010.

Are you referring to the weak stimulus package that still managed to end the recession or the new deal that ended the depression?

Also stagnation is significantly better than recession, so not sure what your point is there.

[XU 87]

No, I should have used the word "economists".

And I have the same response.

[GoMuskies]

the new deal that ended the depression?


You misspelled World War II

[XU 87]

Are you referring to the weak stimulus package that still managed to end the recession or the new deal that ended the depression?



The New Deal didn't end the depression.

[xu95]

You misspelled World War II

My thought exactly. All of the industry that started getting jobs and orders from the federal government is what ended the depression.

xu95

[Strange Brew]

WTF? Your answer makes no sense. How can you talk about Obama's "results" when the Republicans prevented him from implementing the kinds of fiscal policy needed to expedite the recovery? And please explain why large deficits are now fine to Republicans but were incredibly dangerous to the economy under Obama.

Um, because the results of the first two years of his fiscal and regulatory policy made things worse. And your analysts/dreamers guaranteed the stimulus would keep unemployment under 8%. They were waaaay wrong so I'll take the actual results into consideration not the musings of academic know nothings.

Oh, still waiting on that stock market correction...
And It's been more than a year and Trump is still POTUS..
You're not even a broken clock these days

[X-man]

And I have the same response.

I see. So economists have nothing to offer on the question of economic policy because they don't agree with your bias?

[ArizonaXUGrad]

It's not a particularly controversial statement. With the exception of Italy, Europe is incredibly secular.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2015/04/14/map-these-are-the-worlds-least-religious-countries/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.d7cfe78a23df

Yeah so a place like Germany even funnels tax money to churches. Poles are one thing, being religious is another. I have not seen anything like religion in Europe in the US except maybe the Bible Belt. It is not the case here.


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[Caf]

You misspelled World War II

Definitely was the point that ended it completely, but if FDR hadn't cut back on the stimulus the depression wouldn't have returned.

[X-man]

Um, because the results of the first two years of his fiscal and regulatory policy made things worse. And your analysts/dreamers guaranteed the stimulus would keep unemployment under 8%. They were waaaay wrong so I'll take the actual results into consideration not the musings of academic know nothings.

Oh, still waiting on that stock market correction...
And It's been more than a year and Trump is still POTUS..
You're not even a broken clock these days

Um, how did they make things worse? I thought you had studied some economics at Xavier. If you had learned anything, you would know that (1) recessions, particularly those triggered by financial market meltdowns (makes Say's Law inoperable) take several years to work through, and (2) monetary policy won't work very well under these circumstances (particularly when they have hit the ZB constraint) so fiscal policy (the kind that Republicans prevented Obama from implementing because they were SO WORRIED about deficits back then...now, not so much) must be used under those circumstances. But hey, your friend XU87 claims economists know nothing. So people trained in these areas should be ignored in favor of lawyers and political hacks who base all decisions on policy solely on their philosophical biases.

[Caf]

Oh, still waiting on that stock market correction...


Were you on vacation in February?

[XU 87]

I see. So economists have nothing to offer on the question of economic policy because they don't agree with your bias?


Huh?

My point, which is apparently lost on you, is that just because someone is a "liberal economist" does not then make such person an "objective economist". By your posts, you equate them as one of the same.

[Nigel Tufnel]

Burr for President in 2020...

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fdphbmIZ4nI

[Strange Brew]

Um, how did they make things worse? I thought you had studied some economics at Xavier. If you had learned anything, you would know that (1) recessions, particularly those triggered by financial market meltdowns (makes Say's Law inoperable) take several years to work through, and (2) monetary policy won't work very well under these circumstances (particularly when they have hit the ZB constraint) so fiscal policy (the kind that Republicans prevented Obama from implementing because they were SO WORRIED about deficits back then...now, not so much) must be used under those circumstances. But hey, your friend XU87 claims economists know nothing. So people trained in these areas should be ignored in favor of lawyers and political hacks who base all decisions on policy solely on their philosophical biases.

I understand where you come from on the economic spectrum so your take is expected (you're biased politically yourself). I was actually taking Grad level Econ at in 2010 and we had many discussions about the policies of the time. The professor I had at the time would joke about how silly the policies were and we'd be better off doing nothing except rolling back corp taxes. That said, what exactly was Obama's fiscal policy? Spend trillions on gimmicks, keep interest rates at 0 (actually agreed with that one), print tons of money and regulate the energy sector so that energy prices soar hurting the purchasing power of consumers (esp poor ones). Yeah, recipe for a boom time for sure..

[GoMuskies]

I have not seen anything like religion in Europe in the US except maybe the Bible Belt. It is not the case here.


I'm not sure where you were hanging out in Europe (or in America), but by any objective measure (which, to be fair, is tricky with religion), the US is overwhelmingly more religious than Europe.

[Caf]

I'm not sure where you were hanging out in Europe (or in America), but by any objective measure (which, to be fair, is tricky with religion), the US is overwhelmingly more religious than Europe.

Zona why are you holding onto this? There are tons of people in America who think the pope is liberal! Ireland voted to allow abortion! Even being generous I'd say Europe v. US could be equal, but Europe is definitely not more religiously conservative especially as far as government goes.

[X-man]

I understand where you come from on the economic spectrum so your take is expected (you're biased politically yourself). I was actually taking Grad level Econ at in 2010 and we had many discussions about the policies of the time. The professor I had at the time would joke about how silly the policies were and we'd be better off doing nothing except rolling back corp taxes. That said, what exactly was Obama's fiscal policy? Spend trillions on gimmicks, keep interest rates at 0 (actually agreed with that one), print tons of money and regulate the energy sector so that energy prices soar hurting the purchasing power of consumers (esp poor ones). Yeah, recipe for a boom time for sure..
As usual, you have no idea what you are talking about. You know nothing about where I fall on the economic spectrum (Hint: my training in grad school was by faculty largely from the University of Chicago school of thought; my macro training, in particular, was from someone definitely in that camp). Where does your "grad level" econ instructor fall on that spectrum, BTW?

[XU 87]

As usual, you have no idea what you are talking about. You know nothing about where I fall on the economic spectrum

You're a liberal economist. And you think Paul Krugman is brilliant.

[GoMuskies]

Europe is definitely not more religiously conservative especially as far as government goes.

He said that. But it's not even close to as religious (conservative or not). Half the people in basically all of Western Europe identify as non-religious.

[ArizonaXUGrad]

I'm not sure where you were hanging out in Europe (or in America), but by any objective measure (which, to be fair, is tricky with religion), the US is overwhelmingly more religious than Europe.

Germany and I lived there. What is your experience?


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[bjf123]

Get off Roe, literally the world is on the side of Roe. Even religious Europe is on this side. I have no issue going to the 22-24 week limit. That is where near all other countries are.


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I was simply pointing out the fallacy of the argument that since the SCOTUS has said abortion is OK, it can never be reconsidered.


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[noteggs]

Get off Roe, literally


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On a somewhat lighter side of this argument after reading several posts (if there is one). When I quickly read this opinion, I missed the comma between “Get off Roe, literally.” I said to myself, that would have completely changed this discussion!

[GoMuskies]

Germany and I lived there. What is your experience?
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Your anecdotal evidence is trumped by objective evidence. You must have lived near a cult.

[GoMuskies]

But don’t just take my word for it.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/mar/21/christianity-non-christian-europe-young-people-survey-religion
http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2018/05/29/10-key-findings-about-religion-in-western-europe/
http://www.newsweek.com/christianity-dying-religion-millennials-europe-859272

Did you live in Bavaria by chance?
https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/merkel-germany-eu-migrants-1.4723313

[GoMuskies]

Third paragraph of this article for good measure.

https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2018/05/american-atheists-religious-european-christians/560936/

[Xville]

Religiously brainwashed men do seem to be the overwhelming majority of politicians who want abortion banned. Specifically, white, Republican males in Congress or state legislatures. How about if we let women make these type of decisions since they are the ones who actually have to carry a child to term? Men making medical decisions for women is ridiculous. Pure male ego...

Or here's a crazy thought...(speaking of consensual sex only here) that woman decided to have sex, and there are consequences to doing so...she already made a choice. Maybe take some personal responsibility instead of committing murder...crazy thought!

[Xville]

By forcing a woman to go through with an unwanted pregnancy, you are absolutely giving the fetus more rights by denying the woman the right to make her own choices about a pregnancy happening in her own body. This type of religious fundamentalism is a pox on humanity.

Sorry you have such a problem with religion. Pretty typical of a leftie though....so tolerant of people as long as they agree with them.

Regardless, my view is the woman had a choice (consensual situations) when she had sex, which comes with consequences. She doesnt now get to commit murder because it's her body.

[ChicagoX]

Sorry you have such a problem with religion. Pretty typical of a leftie though....so tolerant of people as long as they agree with them.

Regardless, my view is the woman had a choice (consensual situations) when she had sex, which comes with consequences. She doesnt now get to commit murder because it's her body.

If you're so concerned with murder, then I hope you're pro-gun control and against the death penalty. Once the baby is born, conservatives seem to have a hard time doing anything of substance to prevent murders to living and breathing human beings. I just get tired of religious people hiding behind abortion and claiming moral high ground when the majority of the rest of their party's platform is the antithesis of everything their savior taught.

[Xville]

If you're so concerned with murder, then I hope you're pro-gun control and against the death penalty. Once the baby is born, conservatives seem to have a hard time doing anything of substance to prevent murders to living and breathing human beings. I just get tired of religious people hiding behind abortion and claiming moral high ground when the majority of the rest of their party's platform is the antithesis of everything their savior taught.

I'm concerned with murder of an innocent living thing that doesnt get to make choices yet. I'm for the death penalty...again personal responsibility..you decide to commit a bunch of murders, rapes etc...you should die, mostly so there isnt a chance of you escaping and committing more murders.

Gun control? I think people should be allowed to have guns if they want them, (but I do believe there needs to be serious revamping of background checks and enforce them)whether it is for protection or hunting. Criminals dont follow rules, neither do people with mental health issues...control it all you want, people will find a way. You of all people should realize that considering Chicago at some of the toughest gun laws in the country..yet, the Southside.

[ChicagoX]

You of all people should realize that considering Chicago at some of the toughest gun laws in the country..yet, the Southside.

Guess where they get their guns? Indiana, Mississippi and other states and counties that have lax gun laws.

[ArizonaXUGrad]

Your anecdotal evidence is trumped by objective evidence. You must have lived near a cult.

Love it when articles by journalists are trumped by anecdotal evidence because it doesn’t support your narrative. You do know that church attendance and religion are two different things.


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[ArizonaXUGrad]

Guess where they get their guns? Indiana, Mississippi and other states and counties that have lax gun laws.

This, when you live in a country where there isn’t any kind of universal gun control to make that kind of correlation is just recklessly stupid.


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[GoMuskies]

Love it when articles by journalists are trumped by anecdotal evidence because it doesn’t support your narrative. You do know that church attendance and religion are two different things.


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These articles are based on studies by researchers. Sorry you hate science.

Listen, there is zero question that America (and most places on the globe) are more religious than Europe. The fact that anyone would debate this is kinda weird. But if you want to believe otherwise, more power to you.

[GoMuskies]

Or here's a crazy thought...(speaking of consensual sex only here) that woman decided to have sex, and there are consequences to doing so...she already made a choice. Maybe take some personal responsibility instead of committing murder...crazy thought!

Seems a touch extreme. Hopefully you are including males in the responsibility equation as well. Also, there doesn’t need to be a choice between abstinence and pregnancy. We should be handing out pills like candy to women who want them.

[Xville]

Seems a touch extreme. Hopefully you are including males in the responsibility equation as well. Also, there doesn’t need to be a choice between abstinence and pregnancy. We should be handing out pills like candy to women who want them.

Meh....in the end, males dont really.get.to decide what a woman does (every guy knows that)...and yeah I agree with the pill but yet it's not 100 percent effective obviously so gotta accept the consequences if it doesn't work.

[ChicagoX]

[QUOTE=GoMuskies;62636 should be handing out pills like candy to women who want them.[/QUOTE]

If you want to continue to lower the abortion rate, easy access to birth control is the way to do it. Something like 95% of Americans have sex before marriage, so the abstinence schtick has always seemed a bit hypocritical.

Interesting read on the worldwide reduction in abortion rate:

https://www.usnews.com/news/data-mine/articles/2018-03-21/abortion-rates-where-and-why-theyre-falling

[Xville]

Guess where they get their guns? Indiana, Mississippi and other states and counties that have lax gun laws.

Oh brother...that's my point...they will find a way to get them. Universal gun control law in the USA, they will get them from Mexico or some other way.

[X-man]

You're a liberal economist. And you think Paul Krugman is brilliant.

I rest my case. If this is how you "know" things, then no one should listen to anything you say.

[X-man]

I understand where you come from on the economic spectrum so your take is expected (you're biased politically yourself). I was actually taking Grad level Econ at in 2010 and we had many discussions about the policies of the time. The professor I had at the time would joke about how silly the policies were and we'd be better off doing nothing except rolling back corp taxes. That said, what exactly was Obama's fiscal policy? Spend trillions on gimmicks, keep interest rates at 0 (actually agreed with that one), print tons of money and regulate the energy sector so that energy prices soar hurting the purchasing power of consumers (esp poor ones). Yeah, recipe for a boom time for sure..

C'mon, Brew, still waiting for you to tell me where your "grad" econ instructor falls on the economic spectrum...and how you know it.

[Caf]

Meh....in the end, males dont really.get.to decide what a woman does (every guy knows that)

The whole abortion question aside, this is just plain wrong. Fear or uncertainty over the man’s desire for a child is an enormous factor in whether or not a woman gets an abortion. Plus, in the end, it’s really about prevention and that’s on the man as much as the woman.

[boozehound]

I'm concerned with murder of an innocent living thing that doesnt get to make choices yet. I'm for the death penalty...again personal responsibility..you decide to commit a bunch of murders, rapes etc...you should die, mostly so there isnt a chance of you escaping and committing more murders.

Gun control? I think people should be allowed to have guns if they want them, (but I do believe there needs to be serious revamping of background checks and enforce them)whether it is for protection or hunting. Criminals dont follow rules, neither do people with mental health issues...control it all you want, people will find a way. You of all people should realize that considering Chicago at some of the toughest gun laws in the country..yet, the Southside.

I hear this argument a lot. I feel the premise is flawed because it leaves out a key point: the states have open borders with one another. Someone can go to any of the neighboring states (many with relatively lax gun laws) and purchase a gun, file the serial numbers off, and take it across state lines. Indiana in particular has some relatively lax gun laws. I'm not actually in favor of a universal gun ban, but I do think we need to take an honest look at the issue.


Oh brother...that's my point...they will find a way to get them. Universal gun control law in the USA, they will get them from Mexico or some other way.

The United States does not, on the other hand, have an open border with Mexico or Canada, and guns are relatively difficult to smuggle when compared to drugs, for example. Undoubtedly guns would get in, but it's difficult to imagine nearly as many getting in.

[Xville]

The whole abortion question aside, this is just plain wrong. Fear or uncertainty over the man’s desire for a child is an enormous factor in whether or not a woman gets an abortion. Plus, in the end, it’s really about prevention and that’s on the man as much as the woman.

ok but in the end it isn't the man getting the abortion...ultimately, the woman is deciding it. While I agree that prevention is key (I shouldn't have to pay for you to have sex though....pay for it yourself), if you have sex, there may be consequences no matter how careful you are. I understand that people make mistakes...hell I make them on a daily basis. However, sometimes you have to face the consequences of your decisions, and murder shouldn't be protected because you decided to do something that could potentially lead toward pregnancy.

This points to a whole big problem in our country where people refuse to accept responsibility for their actions and I'm talking about corporations/banks here as much as any single human being. Get pregnant and don't want the child? I'll just kill it. Make a ton of financial mistakes that lead toward ruin? Government needs to bail me out. Involved in a drive by shooting, have a 9mm clip on me, run away from the cops, and I'm surprised a cop shot me. I go to college and spend a crap ton of money on a bs major with little to no career trajectory? It's society's fault I can't make ends meet. More and more it is everyone else's fault and more and more someone needs to help me out because I'm owed that.

[Caf]

ok but in the end it isn't the man getting the abortion...ultimately, the woman is deciding it. While I agree that prevention is key (I shouldn't have to pay for you to have sex though....pay for it yourself), if you have sex, there may be consequences no matter how careful you are....This points to a whole big problem in our country where people refuse to accept responsibility for their actions and I'm talking about corporations/banks here as much as any single human being.

I think these contradictions are a big part of the problem. You just talked about how it's ultimately up to the woman and how people refuse to accept responsibility, but also how prevention is key. I don't see how you can reconcile those thoughts. This mentality backs women into a corner where they need to choose between themselves and their potential kids.

If we're going to live in a society where the responsibility of children is solely on the woman (see single mother rates vs single father rates), then there will be abortions whether it's legal or not.

[Xville]

I think these contradictions are a big part of the problem. You just talked about how it's ultimately up to the woman and how people refuse to accept responsibility, but also how prevention is key. I don't see how you can reconcile those thoughts. This mentality backs women into a corner where they need to choose between themselves and their potential kids.

If we're going to live in a society where the responsibility of children is solely on the woman (see single mother rates vs single father rates), then there will be abortions whether it's legal or not.


If the woman gets pregnant, it is ultimately her decision whether to abort or not. A man can't physically due it, unless it is by physical force. This is just the way it is unless somehow men start getting knocked up.

Now, before that, of course it takes two to tango...so yes in this case, responsibility is on the man and the woman. So,yes take preventative measures but realize that there are consequences here because those measures may not work.

In regards to the bolded part, there are always going to be abortions.....people do things that aren't legal all the time and abortion would be no different. I just believe it shouldn't be legal, because it is murder.

[Strange Brew]

C'mon, Brew, still waiting for you to tell me where your "grad" econ instructor falls on the economic spectrum...and how you know it.

Not really sure. The prof was pretty neutral and professional. Didn't let politics cloud the subject matter. Great professor btw, easily one the best I had at X.

[X-man]

Not really sure. The prof was pretty neutral and professional. Didn't let politics cloud the subject matter. Great professor btw, easily one the best I had at X.

In that case, you didn't take a graduate economics course. We don't offer any. The MBA econ courses (and in particular the Executive MBA econ courses) are actually less demanding than our undergraduate econ courses, sad to say. And BTW you might be surprised to know that I never allow politics or political positions into my class lectures. I take great pride in insuring my advanced macro students have no idea which school of macroeconomic thought I subscribe to (answer: a hybrid). And I have always worked extremely hard in microeconomics to present both the strengths and weaknesses of markets, and to provide my students with enough theory that they can decide for themselves. Bottom line: not only do you know very little economics, you know nothing about me.

[paulxu]

Maybe Brew was in your class?

[Strange Brew]

Maybe Brew was in your class?

I was in undergrad. Thanks for the A!

[X-man]

I was in undergrad. Thanks for the A!

See post 2284 in this thread. Where did you take your "Grad level Econ" course? And BTW if you earned an A in one of my econ courses, you really earned it because I set the bar high so I don't waste either my students' time or their parents' money. Too bad you retained so little though.

[bigdiggins]

I hear this argument a lot. I feel the premise is flawed because it leaves out a key point: the states have open borders with one another. Someone can go to any of the neighboring states (many with relatively lax gun laws) and purchase a gun, file the serial numbers off, and take it across state lines. Indiana in particular has some relatively lax gun laws. I'm not actually in favor of a universal gun ban, but I do think we need to take an honest look at the issue.



The United States does not, on the other hand, have an open border with Mexico or Canada, and guns are relatively difficult to smuggle when compared to drugs, for example. Undoubtedly guns would get in, but it's difficult to imagine nearly as many getting in.

Well...

[GoMuskies]

So Trump has appointed Kavanaugh to the Supreme Court, and the sun actually rose today contrary to some predictions. Maybe it's the day after he's confirmed that the world is supposed to actually end.

[xeus]

Love that Kavanaugh dropped a "Men for Others" into his speech last night.

Solid pick Mr President!

[ArizonaXUGrad]

Anybody watching the Strzok hearing today? Yes it was just Reps and not Senators but his answers were telling. Telling in a sense that this country chooses to elect representatives that are dumber then a medium to high level FBI agent. They are a lot dumber.

[GoMuskies]

Did his buddy Lisa Page decided to turn up yet?

[ArizonaXUGrad]

Did his buddy Lisa Page decided to turn up yet?

I don’t know when or if she testifies. Reps look like fools. This is worse than what Clinton did to Chaffetz.



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[X-man]

I don't understand the position taken by Republicans that FBI agents are not allowed to have or state political views. This is, in effect, their position given the fact that an investigation of Strzok's behavior as an FBI employee was professional and free from bias. Trump and his allies seem hell-bent on turning our democracy into a totalitarian state.

[Lamont Sanford]

I don't understand the position taken by Republicans that FBI agents are not allowed to have or state political views. This is, in effect, their position given the fact that an investigation of Strzok's behavior as an FBI employee was professional and free from bias.

Thanks for the good laugh X-MAN. How can you be so obtuse?

[ArizonaXUGrad]

I don't understand the position taken by Republicans that FBI agents are not allowed to have or state political views. This is, in effect, their position given the fact that an investigation of Strzok's behavior as an FBI employee was professional and free from bias. Trump and his allies seem hell-bent on turning our democracy into a totalitarian state.

He isn't being obtuse, they are playing straight from the Roger Stone playbook. Attack, attack, attack, people will be too busy to focus on what matters and your supporters will eat it up.

It's brilliant, meanwhile the tax cuts aren't exactly lighting up the economy like they were purported to, and we are just beginning a trade war that is beyond stupid. None of those in the least will prop up the poor and middle class which would really boost the economy. Why bother, Pubs base is the massively rich. When we hit the next recession, which is coming sooner than you think, they will buy when blood is in the streets and poor and middle class get closer to servitude.

[X-man]

Thanks for the good laugh X-MAN. How can you be so obtuse?

Explain. If you can't, then you're as bad as Trump and his apologists for trashing anyone who disagrees with you. Here's a link to an article today that might enlighten you about the sources of my "obtuseness". Link: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/politics/wp/2018/07/12/peter-strzok-just-gave-a-hard-to-rebut-defense-of-the-objectivity-of-the-russia-investigations-origins/?utm_term=.32c8d5b588db.

[Xville]

He isn't being obtuse, they are playing straight from the Roger Stone playbook. Attack, attack, attack, people will be too busy to focus on what matters and your supporters will eat it up.

It's brilliant, meanwhile the tax cuts aren't exactly lighting up the economy like they were purported to, and we are just beginning a trade war that is beyond stupid. None of those in the least will prop up the poor and middle class which would really boost the economy. Why bother, Pubs base is the massively rich. When we hit the next recession, which is coming sooner than you think, they will buy when blood is in the streets and poor and middle class get closer to servitude.

Better keep clutching those pearls because the Pubs are going to be doing a whole lot of winning in November and once again in 2020.

[ArizonaXUGrad]

Better keep clutching those pearls because the Pubs are going to be doing a whole lot of winning in November and once again in 2020.

The day the parties convinced the lower common denominator voter that it's Pubs vs. Dems and you actually take pride in electing one or the other like a sporting event, is the day people forgot why voting is so important.

Yeah, you can sit a claim winning. Unless you are hyper-rich, you are really just hovering or losing. If you work manufacturing or farming, you are really losing...bigly. But hey, you might get a SCJ that could overturn Roe vs. Wade but you won't get any politicians that have any interest in make the lives of the poor and middle class any better.

[Caf]

Justice Department Appeals Court Ruling Allowing AT&T-Time Warner Merger - WSJ (https://www.wsj.com/articles/justice-department-to-appeal-court-ruling-allowing-at-t-time-warner-merger-1531427031?mod=e2li)

This is a worthwhile endeavor. Definitely not the President using government power to settle a score.

[XU 87]

Thanks for the good laugh X-MAN. How can you be so obtuse?

"What did you call me?"

[Strange Brew]

Explain. If you can't, then you're as bad as Trump and his apologists for trashing anyone who disagrees with you. Here's a link to an article today that might enlighten you about the sources of my "obtuseness". Link: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/politics/wp/2018/07/12/peter-strzok-just-gave-a-hard-to-rebut-defense-of-the-objectivity-of-the-russia-investigations-origins/?utm_term=.32c8d5b588db.

Makes sense that WaPo would make one obtuse....

[XU 87]

I don't understand the position taken by Republicans that FBI agents are not allowed to have or state political views. This is, in effect, their position given the fact that an investigation of Strzok's behavior as an FBI employee was professional and free from bias. Trump and his allies seem hell-bent on turning our democracy into a totalitarian state.

I think your paper of choice, the Washington Post, would disagree with your characterization that "an investigation of Strzok's behavior as an FBI employee was professional and free from bias". I'd go so far as to say, according to the Post, the IG report said the exact opposite.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/trump-receiving-briefing-ahead-of-public-release-of-report-expected-to-criticize-fbi/2018/06/14/c08c6a5a-6fdf-11e8-bf86-a2351b5ece99_story.html?utm_term=.d92dfa838e12

[Xville]

The day the parties convinced the lower common denominator voter that it's Pubs vs. Dems and you actually take pride in electing one or the other like a sporting event, is the day people forgot why voting is so important.

Yeah, you can sit a claim winning. Unless you are hyper-rich, you are really just hovering or losing. If you work manufacturing or farming, you are really losing...bigly. But hey, you might get a SCJ that could overturn Roe vs. Wade but you won't get any politicians that have any interest in make the lives of the poor and middle class any better.

You obviously despise Republicans. I'm just pointing out the fact they will be winning in November and then again in 2020

[bobbiemcgee]

IG's report said "no political bias". End of discussion. You have a first amendment right to call the President an idiot, which, of course, is based in truth. Why not have a hearing on the 2500 missing kids, Russian Meddling or mass murders? Congress just wasting time as usual.

[X-man]

Makes sense that WaPo would make one obtuse....

Of course! Because anything that contradicts your views has to be "obtuse" or worse, from people who hate our country. What a way to have a conversation about issues we disagree about.

[bjf123]

Anybody watching the Strzok hearing today? Yes it was just Reps and not Senators but his answers were telling. Telling in a sense that this country chooses to elect representatives that are dumber then a medium to high level FBI agent. They are a lot dumber.

I did watch a little bit. I saw exactly what I expected, which is the same as most Congressional hearings. The party feeling “wronged” is in full attack dog mode, in some cases asking the same question over and over. At the same time, the other party uses their time, not to ask questions, but to pontificate about how it’s all a waste of time and money, and bringing up things they think should be investigated.

There were some rather direct questions asked that Strozk talked all around, but never actually answered. Of course, some of the questions were of the “Yes or no. Have you stopped beating your wife?” variety.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Strange Brew]

Of course! Because anything that contradicts your views has to be "obtuse" or worse, from people who hate our country. What a way to have a conversation about issues we disagree about.

I should’ve used a smiley face...:)

[X-man]

I should’ve used a smiley face...:)

Typically "insightful" commentary.

[Xville]

I don't understand the position taken by Republicans that FBI agents are not allowed to have or state political views. This is, in effect, their position given the fact that an investigation of Strzok's behavior as an FBI employee was professional and free from bias. Trump and his allies seem hell-bent on turning our democracy into a totalitarian state.

It's absolutely hysterical and delusional you actually believe the crap you just wrote. You think it was free from bias? Wow....

[Caf]

Always fun to see the people who like Trump because he is controversial getting upset when people don't like him.

Throughout the campaign he attacked a Gold Star family, John McCain's valor, and made fun of a handicapped reporter. None of what Strzok said in private is outside the line of what was commonly said in that time. That said, he was an FBI agent in light of this should have been taken off the investigation which he was. What's left? What's the charge that can be brought against him?

This is just yet another horse and pony show from our worthless Congress.

[Xville]

Always fun to see the people who like Trump because he is controversial getting upset when people don't like him.

Throughout the campaign he attacked a Gold Star family, John McCain's valor, and made fun of a handicapped reporter. None of what Strzok said in private is outside the line of what was commonly said in that time. That said, he was an FBI agent in light of this should have been taken off the investigation which he was. What's left? What's the charge that can be brought against him?

This is just yet another horse and pony show from our worthless Congress.

You may find this hard to believe, but I agree with this. In the end, I don't really give a crap because it doesn't affect my life one way or the other.

I just think its hysterical and delusional to believe that Strzok was free of bias.

[Juice]

You may find this hard to believe, but I agree with this. In the end, I don't really give a crap because it doesn't affect my life one way or the other.

I just think its hysterical and delusional to believe that Strzok was free of bias.

The man said he didn’t remember sending the text then explained what he meant in the text. That’s interesting.

[XU 87]

The man said he didn’t remember sending the text then explained what he meant in the text. That’s interesting.

I found that interesting as well. He also said he wasn't biased in his, but then gave a blistering attack of Trump.

[Caf]

You may find this hard to believe, but I agree with this. In the end, I don't really give a crap because it doesn't affect my life one way or the other.

I just think its hysterical and delusional to believe that Strzok was free of bias.

I'm not too surprised. This has gone both ways throughout history. When Congress can't get anything done, or elections are approaching, they just hold these stupid hearings to make political waves. Nothing ever comes of them.

Also, with Chaffetz gone and Gowdy soon to be, these types of shows will be getting much more boring.

[paulxu]

Wonder how you deal with this stuff daily. Must get tiring.


In denying that he criticized May, Trump suggested that a recording of the interview would prove his case. However, The Sun published an audio recording of the interview that included the remarks Trump claimed he did not say.

[X-man]

It's absolutely hysterical and delusional you actually believe the crap you just wrote. You think it was free from bias? Wow....

Please explain why you believe that Strzok's political views are either verboten or caused him to perform is job with the FBI in either a biased or incompetent way. Include what evidence you have because the IG report concluded that their was no bias in his work. Moreover the timing of publicly released information on FBI investigations before the election, as has been repeatedly pointed out without any evidence to the contrary, hurt rather than helped the Clinton campaign. So with no evidence to the contrary and with an IG report plus observed FBI pre-election behavior, of course I believe the "crap" I wrote. Again, explain why I shouldn't using an argument other than you just disagree.

[XU 87]

Please explain why you believe that Strzok's political views are either verboten or caused him to perform is job with the FBI in either a biased or incompetent way. Include what evidence you have because the IG report concluded that their was no bias in his work.

Once again:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/trump-receiving-briefing-ahead-of-public-release-of-report-expected-to-criticize-fbi/2018/06/14/c08c6a5a-6fdf-11e8-bf86-a2351b5ece99_story.html?utm_term=.d92dfa838e12

I will just add that when you're sending text messages to another FBI agent that say "We'll stop it" (referring to Trump being elected), you shouldn't be on the investigation. Period. End of story.

[Xville]

Please explain why you believe that Strzok's political views are either verboten or caused him to perform is job with the FBI in either a biased or incompetent way. Include what evidence you have because the IG report concluded that their was no bias in his work. Moreover the timing of publicly released information on FBI investigations before the election, as has been repeatedly pointed out without any evidence to the contrary, hurt rather than helped the Clinton campaign. So with no evidence to the contrary and with an IG report plus observed FBI pre-election behavior, of course I believe the "crap" I wrote. Again, explain why I shouldn't using an argument other than you just disagree.

lol. https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/peter-strzok-defies-ig-report-i-do-not-have-bias

[X-man]

lol. https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/peter-strzok-defies-ig-report-i-do-not-have-bias

LOL! The Examiner is the paper that would make someone "obtuse". Gosh, how can you believe all that crap???

[XU 87]

LOL! The Examiner is the paper that would make someone "obtuse". Gosh, how can you believe all that crap???

Why don't you look at the quote from the IG report contained in the Examiner article about how Strzok exhibited bias? Or are you arguing that the Examiner made up that exact quote?

[Xville]

Nm

[ChicagoX]

July 27, 2016 - Trump: "Russia, if you're listening, I hope you’re able to find the 30,000 emails that are missing."

Indictment: That evening, Russian operatives targeted Clinton campaign emails "for the first time."

[Mrs. Garrett]

July 27, 2016 - Trump: "Russia, if you're listening, I hope you’re able to find the 30,000 emails that are missing."

Indictment: That evening, Russian operatives targeted Clinton campaign emails "for the first time."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/house-majority-leader-to-colleagues-in-2016-i-think-putin-pays-trump/2017/05/17/515f6f8a-3aff-11e7-8854-21f359183e8c_story.html?utm_term=.7ff3c798f69a

Let's not forget what Trump'sown party thinks about his ties to Russia

[ArizonaXUGrad]

Whether Mueller connects Trump to this or not, he absolutely needs to be free to move forward. Indicting 12 Russians is pretty clear that something is amiss. This investigation is actually moving froward with indictments and pleas. I am waiting for the posts of but the emails or but Strzok was biased.

[ArizonaXUGrad]

The hacking plus any possible campaign connections to anyone should be investigated exhaustively...or bigley whatever you type there.

[paulxu]

This is just crazy on so many levels:


Donald J. Trump✔
@realDonaldTrump
Our relationship with Russia has NEVER been worse thanks to many years of U.S. foolishness and stupidity and now, the Rigged Witch Hunt!

When the president is overseas, people are not suppose to disagree with him. Looks bad for the country.
What do you do if the president disagrees with the country?
What do you do when he blames his own country for bad relations with Russia over many years? His OWN country...while he is meeting with the Russian president?
What do you do when the president mocks his own country's Justice Dept. by calling their investigation of Russia a witch hunt, when meeting with the Russian president, when that department just indicted 12 Russians for messing with the election that got you the presidency?

It's like living in a Kafkaesque nightmare.

Well, at least someone agreed with him. The Russian Foreign Ministry responded to his tweet:


MFA Russia 🇷🇺✔
@mfa_russia
We agree

[ChicagoX]

This is just crazy on so many levels:



When the president is overseas, people are not suppose to disagree with him. Looks bad for the country.
What do you do if the president disagrees with the country?
What do you do when he blames his own country for bad relations with Russia over many years? His OWN country...while he is meeting with the Russian president?
What do you do when the president mocks his own country's Justice Dept. by calling their investigation of Russia a witch hunt, when meeting with the Russian president, when that department just indicted 12 Russians for messing with the election that got you the presidency?

It's like living in a Kafkaesque nightmare.

Well, at least someone agreed with him. The Russian Foreign Ministry responded to his tweet:

I don't know if he's being blackmailed or is just easily manipulated, but it's becoming increasingly evident that Trump has been compromised by Russian oligarchs. To stand up with Putin and agree with him over all of our intelligence agencies is something I never thought I'd see in an American president. Reagan would be rolling over in his grave...

[Lloyd Braun]

It's a nothing burger As Far As Trump "Collusion"- which happens to be the alleged thrust of the investigation and has shown nothing- as in "nothing burger".
If Obummer really thought something was being done by Russia, where was his action after a "stern warning"? Even then there was no evidence of any "collusion". It's crap.

Still believe this to be true? At what point does it become a something burger? Only when Trump himself admits it to be?

[Caf]

Still believe this to be true? At what point does it become a something burger? Only when Trump himself admits it to be?

Maybe it's when a sitting U.S. President can't decide if he trusts our intelligence agencies or the President of Russia.

[paulxu]

I'm certainly not sure whether Trump had any knowledge of his campaign staff working with Russians. Maybe yes, maybe no.
I'm certainly not sure if there is a pee tape...probably not.

What seems very plausible is that Trump's business career became beholding to Russian investment (as his sons alluded to a couple times), and that could be an explanation of much of his antics.

Which makes a good case to have all presidential nominees release their tax returns. If the Republicans had required that of all nominees when there were a dozen candidates, we might not be where we are today.

[Pete Delkus]

All while back at the home front, my wife and I have enjoyed the fruits of the corporate tax plan. We've also appreciate two Judges, who would seem to side with the general public & not rule in favor of building non-binary bathrooms for a-sexual giraffes.

Last but not least, the union base of the Trump vote is as strong as ever, & watching the Madows, Harwoods, Cuomo's head explode because they fail to realize there are people outside of Manhattan & the Beltway, is entertaining.

[ArizonaXUGrad]

All while back at the home front, my wife and I have enjoyed the fruits of the corporate tax plan. We've also appreciate two Judges, who would seem to side with the general public & not rule in favor of building non-binary bathrooms for a-sexual giraffes.

Last but not least, the union base of the Trump vote is as strong as ever, & watching the Madows, Harwoods, Cuomo's head explode because they fail to realize there are people outside of Manhattan & the Beltway, is entertaining.

How have you benefited? Serious question, numbers aren’t showing huge corporate investment in people. My own experience confirms that. Now, people believing his lies? I can’t do anything about that.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[paulxu]

How have you benefited? Serious question, numbers aren’t showing huge corporate investment in people. My own experience confirms that. Now, people believing his lies? I can’t do anything about that.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Maybe Pete got well with people buying his stock back.

[ArizonaXUGrad]

Maybe Pete got well with people buying his stock back.

My extremely intelligent father, aeronautical engineer and well versed in economics, believed that Corporations would reinvest back into itself with their newfound tax break. What I could not figure out was that he knew what happened last time Bush allowed the repatriation of foreign held funds. He knew a lion share when to the purchase of treasury stock but insisted this one would be different. I just laughed at him.

[ChicagoX]

If wages aren't going to rise when the economy is doing well and after huge tax breaks for corporations, then when is it going to happen?

CBS News: Worker wages drop while companies spend billions to boost stocks (https://www.cbsnews.com/news/worker-wages-drop-while-companies-spend-billions-to-boost-stocks/)

[bobbiemcgee]

Bus on last legs....

http://images.fineartamerica.com/images-medium-large-5/sick-school-bus-jake-jacobs.jpg

[waggy]

Who can forget all the foreign relations damage repair Sec of State Hillary had to do when she forced her way into office.

[Caf]

My extremely intelligent father, aeronautical engineer and well versed in economics, believed that Corporations would reinvest back into itself with their newfound tax break. What I could not figure out was that he knew what happened last time Bush allowed the repatriation of foreign held funds. He knew a lion share when to the purchase of treasury stock but insisted this one would be different. I just laughed at him.

Is he versed in accounting and corporate finance? People gas-lighting over this are a bit misinformed. These companies are repatriating retained earnings. Even after the repatriation tax holiday it still makes more sense to fund investment with debt in this environment. 8% and 15.5% tax are lower but still significantly higher than the 2-5% rates companies like Apple can get on bonds. I would much rather see earnings given to investors in the form of dividends, but I'm not going to fault a corporation for lowering their cost of capital right before the interest rate party is over.

[ArizonaXUGrad]

Is he versed in accounting and corporate finance? People gas-lighting over this are a bit misinformed. These companies are repatriating retained earnings. Even after the repatriation tax holiday it still makes more sense to fund investment with debt in this environment. 8% and 15.5% tax are lower but still significantly higher than the 2-5% rates companies like Apple can get on bonds. I would much rather see earnings given to investors in the form of dividends, but I'm not going to fault a corporation for lowering their cost of capital right before the interest rate party is over.

He has the benefit of me being a corporate accountant at a public company. Those things you mention don’t help the employee one bit.

Edit to toss in that in my years, I have yet to see a company ever pay off big debt. It’s always refinanced for a new rate. I am class of ‘98 so I have a few years into this.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Caf]

He has the benefit of me being a corporate accountant at a public company. Those things you mention don’t help the employee one bit.

Edit to toss in that in my years, I have yet to see a company ever pay off big debt. It’s always refinanced for a new rate. I am class of ‘98 so I have a few years into this.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

When did I say or imply that it directly helps the employee? There are practically zero instances of a company using retained earnings to benefit employees over shareholders. Wages are strictly functions of the labor market. No company is going to pay more just because they had strong earnings.

[GoMuskies]

I am class of ‘98 so I have a few years into this.

Class of '98 accounting (and finance) grads rule.

[ArizonaXUGrad]

When did I say or imply that it directly helps the employee? There are practically zero instances of a company using retained earnings to benefit employees over shareholders. Wages are strictly functions of the labor market. No company is going to pay more just because they had strong earnings.

This, however, is going to be the number one thing that causes the next recession. Well, combined with ever increasing inflation will lead individuals and families with a decreasing ability to pay for necessities in their life.

[Caf]

This, however, is going to be the number one thing that causes the next recession. Well, combined with ever increasing inflation will lead individuals and families with a decreasing ability to pay for necessities in their life.

I wouldn't say that.

[Caf]

I wouldn't say that.

Would*

[boozehound]

Maybe it's when a sitting U.S. President can't decide if he trusts our intelligence agencies or the President of Russia.

I'm afraid that the answer is never. I'm genuinely concerned that we have reached the point in our life cycle as a nation where we are too stupid and too divided to govern ourselves effectively.

Trump is a disaster - a pure populist who doesn't understand or care about long term implications of his decisions or government spending. He will do or say whatever makes him popular right now with almost not regard for the future. That's without getting into his bizarre behavior around Russia. The fact that he isn't getting more heat from his party at this point should tell you all you need to know.

Unfortunately it looks like the Democrats are just going to keep tacking further to the left, so we will end up with Trump or a Bernie Sanders type of candidate in 2020, neither of which will be good for the country.

[noteggs]

Would*

Funny and very clever!

[ArizonaXUGrad]

Now Trump backing off of North Korea shutting down their nuclear weapons program. He is saying now no timeline is set. I guess that Peace prize should be put on ice.

Edit: Go ahead and toss in some Russia NRA collusion for good measure. This is fun.

[paulxu]

Edit: Go ahead and toss in some Russia NRA collusion for good measure. This is fun.

Complete with honey traps!

[ArizonaXUGrad]

Complete with honey traps!

I thought more like Red Sparrow. Saw that movie, this girl seems about as close to the real deal we may know.

[Caf]

I'm afraid that the answer is never. I'm genuinely concerned that we have reached the point in our life cycle as a nation where we are too stupid and too divided to govern ourselves effectively.

Trump is a disaster - a pure populist who doesn't understand or care about long term implications of his decisions or government spending. He will do or say whatever makes him popular right now with almost not regard for the future. That's without getting into his bizarre behavior around Russia. The fact that he isn't getting more heat from his party at this point should tell you all you need to know.

Unfortunately it looks like the Democrats are just going to keep tacking further to the left, so we will end up with Trump or a Bernie Sanders type of candidate in 2020, neither of which will be good for the country.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yd0fBXwDBmo

[ArizonaXUGrad]

Now there is Trump right on a Cohen tape discussing paying off the playboy model. Guiliani calls it exculpatory, he is just the gift that keeps on giving entertainment.

Something tells me these Cohen tapes are a treasure trove of fun.

[paulxu]

"I can't believe Michael would do this to me."

I can't believe Michael wouldn't to this to him.

[ArizonaXUGrad]

"I can't believe Michael would do this to me."

I can't believe Michael wouldn't to this to him.

Cohen recording Trump is the least surprising thing in all of this. Just from listening to him during the campaign and his first 18 months in office, Trump is about the least trustworthy person to ever serve as a president. The guy just can't help himself when he lies. He just does it and won't admit when he does it. Cohen and his recordings are the most assured CYA thing he could do.

The board Trump fans are nowhere to be seen. I get it though, I am still in the let's wait and see group. What are going to find when we have all waited?

[bobbiemcgee]

Another soap opera week. Mueller subpoenaing the Manhattan Madam now. I'm long out of popcorn.

[ArizonaXUGrad]

Another soap opera week. Mueller subpoenaing the Manhattan Madam now. I'm long out of popcorn.

Good lord, now it’s getting ridiculous. I get that the feds line up all of their ducks before pouncing but there is a point where they are merely running up the score.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Strange Brew]

I’m not surprised by Trump’s indescretions from the past..

He was of course a Democrat at the time.

[XU 87]

Now there is Trump right on a Cohen tape discussing paying off the playboy model. Guiliani calls it exculpatory, he is just the gift that keeps on giving entertainment.

Something tells me these Cohen tapes are a treasure trove of fun.

I am wondering how Mueller can even listen to these tapes. They should be protected by attorney client privilege, and I doubt Trump will waive that privilege. Cohen can't waive it; only the client can waive it.

[Strange Brew]

I am wondering how Cohen can even listen to these tapes. They should be protected by attorney client privilege, and I doubt Trump will waive that privilege. Cohen can't waive it; only the client can waive it.

Yeah, odd that attorney/client priveledge is out the window.

I’m looking forward to discovery for the 12 Rueben ham sandwiches Pauly indicted..

[paulxu]

I am wondering how Cohen can even listen to these tapes. They should be protected by attorney client privilege, and I doubt Trump will waive that privilege. Cohen can't waive it; only the client can waive it.

It seems that it's possible Trump's team waived the privilege by leaking information on the tapes.

Possibly they did it to take away a chip from Cohen in negotiations for sentence reduction, or to get out in front of something they knew would come out anyway.

I think the Special Master had ruled them privileged...so Cohen would be in trouble if he leaked. But not if the Trump team did.

Sorry '87, why can't Cohen "listen" to them? He taped them. I think New York is a one party rule for taping.

[ArizonaXUGrad]

I am wondering how Cohen can even listen to these tapes. They should be protected by attorney client privilege, and I doubt Trump will waive that privilege. Cohen can't waive it; only the client can waive it.

I thought that privilege was already cleared. Didn’t they have a group review it and remove privileged items?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[XU 87]

I had a typo in my post. I meant Mueller can't listen to them.

One party taping laws are a different and unrelated issue as to attorney client privilege. The tapes are discussions between Trump and his attorney. Only Trump can waive that privilege. I think there are exceptions to that such as if a client were to tell me he planned to go kill someone later in the day. I suppose that if Trump was talking to Cohen about conspiring to break the law (like campaign finance laws), that could also be an exception to the privilege, but I'm not real sure about that. It's a very broad privilege.

Cohen's documents were previously reviewed for privilege. This tape is something new (I think).

[XU 87]

Whether Mueller connects Trump to this or not, he absolutely needs to be free to move forward. Indicting 12 Russians is pretty clear that something is amiss. This investigation is actually moving froward with indictments and pleas.

I have changed my view of these indictments. They are a dog and pony show which allows Mueller to say, "Look what we're accomplishing." Does anyone think these Russians will ever come to the U.S. for trial?

And this is a slippery slope. I have no doubt that U.S. intelligence people are doing similar computer hacking into Russian computer systems. Do we want Russia to start indicting our intelligence people?

This is a good article from a former federal prosecutor (yes, I know, he writes for National Review, but his arguments are valid.)

https://www.nationalreview.com/2018/07/muellers-latest-indictments-russians-politicized-pointless/

[bobbiemcgee]

One party taping laws are a different and unrelated issue as to attorney client privilege. The tapes are discussions between Trump and his attorney. Only Trump can waive that privilege.

It's being reported Trump's attorneys waived the privilege. But, of course, he could flip-flop.

[paulxu]

It (the tape) was ruled as privileged. Trump's attorneys could have kept it secret.

One is left to wonder why they waived the privilege, and then apparently leaked the fact there was a tape.

[ArizonaXUGrad]

Privilege is waived during crimes, and plotting crimes.

The privilege thing is already settled. They had independent counsel to review materials, quarantine privileges material, and left the rest.


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[Caf]

Will those praying for an impeachment be disappointed if it's over a porn star payoff and not a an international conspiracy?

[STL_XUfan]

Will those praying for an impeachment be disappointed if it's over a porn star payoff and not a an international conspiracy?

It would certainly make the history of this period a lot more interesting for future generations.

[xudash]

Will those praying for an impeachment be disappointed if it's over a porn star payoff and not a an international conspiracy?

Won't happen. Bill Clinton already set the teflon precedent for indecent behavior.

[paulxu]

I was fascinated that the White House cut part of the official transcript of the Helsinki press conference out; the same part that the Kremlin cut out.

[ArizonaXUGrad]

I was fascinated that the White House cut part of the official transcript of the Helsinki press conference out; the same part that the Kremlin cut out.

I did not notice that. Link to the specific part?


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[Juice]

I was fascinated that the White House cut part of the official transcript of the Helsinki press conference out; the same part that the Kremlin cut out.

https://twitter.com/JoeNBC/status/1022137100072878080

Joe Scarborough
‏
Verified account

@JoeNBC
2h2 hours ago
More
Turns out the White House DID NOT edit out the Putin question, based on this updated analysis of the audio and video feeds by the WPost. If you can’t follow the technical parts, just read the concluding line. Now maybe he can drop Putin’s foreign policy.

[Caf]

https://twitter.com/JoeNBC/status/1022137100072878080

Joe Scarborough
‏
Verified account

@JoeNBC
2h2 hours ago
More
Turns out the White House DID NOT edit out the Putin question, based on this updated analysis of the audio and video feeds by the WPost. If you can’t follow the technical parts, just read the concluding line. Now maybe he can drop Putin’s foreign policy.

Any links from a reputable source? WashPo is fake news.

[paulxu]

So they didn't leave it out on purpose.
Will they put the missing piece back in?
How convenient. Wonder if the Kremlin's missing piece was also a mistake.

[ArizonaXUGrad]

So they didn't leave it out on purpose.
Will they put the missing piece back in?
How convenient. Wonder if the Kremlin's missing piece was also a mistake.

Did I read it here or did I read it when I looked it up but I think both were the same part.

This, the released Cohen tape, Helsinki, tariffs, farmer socialist welfare, this has been a couple weeks of anti-MAGA.

[bobbiemcgee]

Any links from a reputable source? WashPo is fake news.

Apparently Melania loves watching CNN.

[Strange Brew]

Did I read it here or did I read it when I looked it up but I think both were the same part.

This, the released Cohen tape, Helsinki, tariffs, farmer socialist welfare, this has been a couple weeks of anti-MAGA.

Cohen - meh
Helsinki - at least he didn’t promise leeway after his re-election. Still not good optics
Farmer subs - not a fan but why do you hate farmers?
Tariffs - not a fan but nice win today with the EU. When the other side has been waging a trade war for decades it’s nice to see the US finally put boots on the ground.

[Xville]

Did I read it here or did I read it when I looked it up but I think both were the same part.

This, the released Cohen tape, Helsinki, tariffs, farmer socialist welfare, this has been a couple weeks of anti-MAGA.

You forgot the part about there now being more jobs available than people, unemployment numbers being the lowest in 18 years, construction spending up about 2%, mfg metrics at about 58%, small business and consumer confidence levels are at record highs.

[ArizonaXUGrad]

You forgot the part about there now being more jobs available than people, unemployment numbers being the lowest in 18 years, construction spending up about 2%, mfg metrics at about 58%, small business and consumer confidence levels are at record highs.

That is great there are more jobs available because with lower wages it takes one person working two or three to have a life.

Oh and yuge record levels of stock buy backs.


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[Xville]

That is great there are more jobs available because with lower wages it takes one person working two or three to have a life.

Oh and yuge record levels of stock buy backs.


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Why is consumer confidence at record highs? Why is mfg metrics up? Why is small business growth at record highs? The economy is in great shape overall right now.

[ArizonaXUGrad]

Why is consumer confidence at record highs? Why is mfg metrics up? Why is small business growth at record highs? The economy is in great shape overall right now.

You need to read deeper. Right now the economy is being propped up by the lower-middle and middle class earners. However, wages have not had an increase to support that spending. In history, great economies have either been propped by the rich spending (they aren't right now they are investing in the market and saving) or by middle and lower-middle class spending with corresponding wage increases. The economy is doing ok, but without wage increases to support the spending it is a house of cards. The moment people can't spend anymore or take on any more revolving debt to support that spending it's recession city again.

[Xville]

You need to read deeper. Right now the economy is being propped up by the lower-middle and middle class earners. However, wages have not had an increase to support that spending. In history, great economies have either been propped by the rich spending (they aren't right now they are investing in the market and saving) or by middle and lower-middle class spending with corresponding wage increases. The economy is doing ok, but without wage increases to support the spending it is a house of cards. The moment people can't spend anymore or take on any more revolving debt to support that spending it's recession city again.

This is such baloney. Middle and lower class is spending.more because why then? They just feel good about themselves?

Your logic is the house of cards here.

[paulxu]

This is such baloney. Middle and lower class is spending.more because why then? They just feel good about themselves?

Your logic is the house of cards here.

It takes more to send their kids to college, buy a house, food, etc. Middle class wages over the last 30 years haven't kept up with inflation.
So, you get the debt increase he pointed out. No really a house of cards. Just basic math.

[ArizonaXUGrad]

Why is consumer confidence at record highs? Why is mfg metrics up? Why is small business growth at record highs? The economy is in great shape overall right now.

What you just posted is basically people just feeling good about themselves, that is consumer confidence.

[Xville]

What you just posted is basically people just feeling good about themselves, that is consumer confidence.

It's an indicator of ones personal financial situation. Wages have gone up in many cases...mfg and construction along with food service industries. Better than it has for years and years. Cant expect miracles as years of recession are still in companies' heads, but they are starting to change as basically every economic indicator says so.

[Caf]

This is such baloney. Middle and lower class is spending.more because why then? They just feel good about themselves?

Your logic is the house of cards here.

People spend money they don't, and will not, have all of the time. Household debt is at all time highs and auto loan delinquencies are on the rise despite the strong economy. So yes, people spend more because they feel good about themselves quite often.

[Nigel Tufnel]

Joe Rogan did a recent podcast with Peter Schiff and these issues were discussed in depth. Worth a listen...

[ArizonaXUGrad]

It's an indicator of ones personal financial situation. Wages have gone up in many cases...mfg and construction along with food service industries. Better than it has for years and years. Cant expect miracles as years of recession are still in companies' heads, but they are starting to change as basically every economic indicator says so.

Manufacturing peaked in April and have gone down since to levels about equal to Q1. Manufacturing has risen steadily albeit slowly for several years. I didn't look up food service. Since those are at the bottom of the rung of wages any mandatory minimum hike at the city level will push those averages.

All those years of fear and recession has resulted in record levels of stock buyback. They aren't hoarding cash, the ones spending on capital improvements and business investment were planned long before the tax plan ever came out.

[ArizonaXUGrad]

People spend money they don't, and will not, have all of the time. Household debt is at all time highs and auto loan delinquencies are on the rise despite the strong economy. So yes, people spend more because they feel good about themselves quite often.

This is a great example.

I have a 6.5 year old Tacoma. When I bought it, they didn't have a 4 year loan anymore. The guy wanted me to take out a 6 year loan, I stuck with the 5 to get the great .9% rate. I paid $29k for it then, my same truck is now $35k a 20% increase. Wages haven't followed, most interns I know who buy new have to take out 6-7 year loans just to buy a car.

The housing market has gone nuts. Homes are being built far from city centers and people are buying them for crazy prices. With the top saving and/or investing in the market like they are, this is not a sustainable economy.

[bobbiemcgee]

Interns would be crazy to buy new. Some cars lose up to 35% of their value after a year, depending on the make and model that's 15k. Find a trustworthy guy who buys at the Auto Auction and give him $300-$500 to buy a year old model still under full warranty. You can verify the pp with the auction receipt. Better yet, buy a low mileage, off lease unit and saves thousands.

[noteggs]

People spend money they don't, and will not, have all of the time. Household debt is at all time highs and auto loan delinquencies are on the rise despite the strong economy. So yes, people spend more because they feel good about themselves quite often.

When you say people, are you referring to the government?

[ArizonaXUGrad]

Interns would be crazy to buy new. Some cars lose up to 35% of their value after a year, depending on the make and model that's 15k. Find a trustworthy guy who buys at the Auto Auction and give him $300-$500 to buy a year old model still under full warranty. You can verify the pp with the auction receipt. Better yet, buy a low mileage, off lease unit and saves thousands.

This is a great point, however, what if it’s your kid. What if you live in Phoenix and have a young daughter,do you push used over new? Or do you keep her safe in 118 degree temps, get her a new car that has a lower likelihood to break down.

These are the decisions lower middle and middle class people have to make. These are decisions kids have to make all on low crappy salaries.


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[Xville]

This is a great point, however, what if it’s your kid. What if you live in Phoenix and have a young daughter,do you push used over new? Or do you keep her safe in 118 degree temps, get her a new car that has a lower likelihood to break down.

These are the decisions lower middle and middle class people have to make. These are decisions kids have to make all on low crappy salaries.


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I have a daughter and when she gets to that point, I'm going to direct her to one she can afford, just like my parents did to me. I drove a used ford escort fresh out of college because I had one of those shitty low crappy salaries...that's the real world.

I get the sense that you feel the government or society owes people something, I feel you make choices every day that determines where and how you end up in life. No one owes you anything. If you choose to work in a low paying profession, you made that choice. I know several areas that dont take college degrees that in Louisville ky you can make 6 figures which trust me is a lot of.money, you just have to be willing to work...plumbing, electrician, welder, etc.

[Caf]

When you say people, are you referring to the government?

Hahah that too. I definitely don't buy into the argument that the government shouldn't be running any deficit, but few would argue today's levels are anywhere close to acceptable.

[Caf]

I have a daughter and when she gets to that point, I'm going to direct her to one she can afford, just like my parents did to me. I drove a used ford escort fresh out of college because I had one of those shitty low crappy salaries...that's the real world.

I get the sense that you feel the government or society owes people something, I feel you make choices every day that determines where and how you end up in life. No one owes you anything. If you choose to work in a low paying profession, you made that choice. I know several areas that dont take college degrees that in Louisville ky you can make 6 figures which trust me is a lot of.money, you just have to be willing to work...plumbing, electrician, welder, etc.

Man you really contorted your argument to dodge that one. The point still stands, consumer confidence is not indicative of the financial well being of the nation. Consumer confidence was pretty damn high in '08 and during the tech bubble. Look up Irrational Exuberance.

[Xville]

Man you really contorted your argument to dodge that one. The point still stands, consumer confidence is not indicative of the financial well being of the nation. Consumer confidence was pretty damn high in '08 and during the tech bubble. Look up Irrational Exuberance.

Well, the economy just grew over 4 % this quarter, so there's that. Economy is in great shape right now, sot back and enjoy..even if it is under a leadership you cant stand.

[Caf]

Well, the economy just grew over 4 % this quarter, so there's that. Economy is in great shape right now, sot back and enjoy..even if it is under a leadership you cant stand.

Very true. I am enjoying it. However, I don't believe the argument Arizona is making is that the overall economy isn't doing well. I believe it's that the growth is unsustainable and not being enjoyed proportionally through the middle and lower classes.

[Xville]

Very true. I am enjoying it. However, I don't believe the argument Arizona is making is that the overall economy is doing well. I believe it's that the growth is unsustainable and not being enjoyed proportionally through the middle and lower classes.

Fair, but I believe that it is sustainable....once there are a few consecutive quarters of economic prosperity, wage increases will occur...not everything is going to happen overnight. Plus, there are quite a bit of companies (all the top ones here in Louisville I know due to working with them) that have reintroduced their bonus structures they have not had in place for years and years. Those are not reflected in the wage statistics.

[Juice]

Joe Concha
‏@JoeConchaTV
4.1 percent GDP for Q2: Context: Average GDP growth under the previous administration in its second term was 2.2 percent.

[paulxu]

Wait...did I sleep through something? Are we in Trump's second term?

[ArizonaXUGrad]

Fair, but I believe that it is sustainable....once there are a few consecutive quarters of economic prosperity, wage increases will occur...not everything is going to happen overnight. Plus, there are quite a bit of companies (all the top ones here in Louisville I know due to working with them) that have reintroduced their bonus structures they have not had in place for years and years. Those are not reflected in the wage statistics.

I think the economy is good and growing, but agree it is not sustainable without wage growth that isn’t happening. Companies just got flush with cash and they are buying treasury stock and not increasing wages. This makes me think companies see a recession coming.


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[ArizonaXUGrad]

I have a daughter and when she gets to that point, I'm going to direct her to one she can afford, just like my parents did to me. I drove a used ford escort fresh out of college because I had one of those shitty low crappy salaries...that's the real world.

I get the sense that you feel the government or society owes people something, I feel you make choices every day that determines where and how you end up in life. No one owes you anything. If you choose to work in a low paying profession, you made that choice. I know several areas that dont take college degrees that in Louisville ky you can make 6 figures which trust me is a lot of.money, you just have to be willing to work...plumbing, electrician, welder, etc.

Your second paragraph is an old tired argument. What if anything I have discussed said that I was owed anything? A vast majority people don’t choose to get sucky pay.

So for you it must the Cheeto head giving farmers socialism this week must have made your head explode. By your opinions, the government should have handed out bootstraps instead.


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[Lloyd Braun]

Joe Concha
‏@JoeConchaTV
4.1 percent GDP for Q2: Context: Average GDP growth under the previous administration in its second term was 2.2 percent.

Comparing one quarter to sixteen quarters seems like not a proper comparison.

@JohnJHarwood:
strong 4.1% growth under Trump in Q2 of 2018 would rank as 5th strongest Q of Obama presidency

—5.1% Q2 2014
—4.9% Q3 2014
—4.7% Q4 2011
—4.5% Q4 2009

Quibbling over economic growth is ridiculous IMO.

[X-man]

Fair, but I believe that it is sustainable....once there are a few consecutive quarters of economic prosperity, wage increases will occur...not everything is going to happen overnight. Plus, there are quite a bit of companies (all the top ones here in Louisville I know due to working with them) that have reintroduced their bonus structures they have not had in place for years and years. Those are not reflected in the wage statistics.

I hope that you are right, and that your anecdotal evidence about what is happening in Louisville proves to be the norm throughout the economy. Based on what I am hearing and reading from economists suggests otherwise. Time will tell.

[bobbiemcgee]

Joe Concha
‏@JoeConchaTV
4.1 percent GDP for Q2: Context: Average GDP growth under the previous administration in its second term was 2.2 percent.

We're spending 4.1 trillion this year and taking in 3.3 trillion. Yowza.

[Strange Brew]

We're spending 4.1 trillion this year and taking in 3.3 trillion. Yowza.

Interest rate hikes and too much Federal spending. Yikes!

[X-man]

Interest rate hikes and too little tax revenue. Yikes!

Fixed that for you.,

[Strange Brew]

Fixed that for you.,

Hey, pony. Show us that one trick again...

Tax money extracted by force from the citizenry is adequate.

Morons on both sides of the aisle spend too much.

[UCGRAD4X]

Hey, pony. Show us that one trick again...

Tax money extracted by force from the citizenry is more than adequate.

Morons on both sides of the aisle spend way, way, way too much.

Did I mention, way?

[X-man]

Interest rate hikes and too much Federal spending. Yikes!

Talk about one trick pony.

[Strange Brew]

Talk about one trick pony.

So, you think the spending levels of the Fed are sustainable?

[bjf123]

So, you think the spending levels of the Fed are sustainable?

As long as there’s someone to buy treasury bonds to finance the debt, sure. I have zero faith that anyone in government will ever do anything to reign in spending.


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[Masterofreality]

Joe Concha
‏@JoeConchaTV
4.1 percent GDP for Q2: Context: Average GDP growth under the previous administration in its second term was 2.2 percent.

All this winning is getting old. Time go go back to slow growth and higher unemployment. The press is flummoxed about how to avoid reporting it. ;-)

[Strange Brew]

That is great there are more jobs available because with lower wages it takes one person working two or three to have a life.

Oh and yuge record levels of stock buy backs.


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Oops, wrong again. WINNING!
https://apnews.com/56ebb3e8474445d7b238a045651fb7a2/Annual-US-worker-pay-gains-rose-at-fastest-pace-since-2008

[paulxu]

From that article


Even the relatively solid gains aren’t enough to keep up with slightly higher inflation, which rose 2.9 percent in the 12 months ending in June. That means after inflation, wages and salaries for private sector workers was flat.

Not winning

[Strange Brew]

From that article



Not winning

Well the AP couldn’t give a win a win. Inflation at 2.9% is low and the Fed has raised rates. Love to see this economy with the 0% Fed Fund Rate Obama experienced...

[ArizonaXUGrad]

Well the AP couldn’t give a win a win. Inflation at 2.9% is low and the Fed has raised rates. Love to see this economy with the 0% Fed Fund Rate Obama experienced...

Good lord, read what you post. This economy is not working for most. If you can’t see it than ok, actually look and do you research, if you won’t see I can’t help you.


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[Strange Brew]

Good lord, read what you post. This economy is not working for most. If you can’t see it than ok, actually look and do you research, if you won’t see I can’t help you.


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Because it’s been killing it for over the last decade?!? It’s finally normalizing (full employment w/rising interest rates). If you can’t see this, stop posting....

[Xville]

Because it’s been killing it for over the last decade?!? It’s finally normalizing (full employment w/rising interest rates). If you can’t see this, stop posting....

He just wants his buddy Obama back...you know the only president in history that didn't have 3% annual growth in any year of his presidency and averaged under 2%.

[Caf]

Well the AP couldn’t give a win a win. Inflation at 2.9% is low and the Fed has raised rates. Love to see this economy with the 0% Fed Fund Rate Obama experienced...

Yes, the AP mentioned inflation in an article about wage numbers because they couldn't give a win a win. Are you serious?

[ArizonaXUGrad]

Because it’s been killing it for over the last decade?!? It’s finally normalizing (full employment w/rising interest rates). If you can’t see this, stop posting....

You are hopeless if you can sit there and post with a straight non-trolling face that the economy is working for most people. If it was, we would have record savings for the poor and middle class (we don't), we would record low healthcare costs (we don't), and maybe it would be easy for people to live off one income (they can't). Again I ask, How is any of this working for most people???

Fact is, costs are so high and wages are so low that most family are just eking by. Most don't have the money to handle a medium to high emergency expense, and a vast percentage would need to declare bankruptcy after a major health problem. This is an economy that is failing it's people. But hey go MAGA away and maybe you get your wall because that is the most important thing.

[ArizonaXUGrad]

He just wants his buddy Obama back...you know the only president in history that didn't have 3% annual growth in any year of his presidency and averaged under 2%.

GDP growth not a reflective measure for how the economy treats the poor and middle class, especially when the gains go to the top 1%. So there is that, there is also that tricky depression that happened a year before he took office. That nasty depression where we were literally on the brink. I didn't agree with some of the things he did, but he took us off of a nasty ledge that any banking/business savvy person would see.

[Xville]

You are hopeless if you can sit there and post with a straight non-trolling face that the economy is working for most people. If it was, we would have record savings for the poor and middle class (we don't), we would record low healthcare costs (we don't), and maybe it would be easy for people to live off one income (they can't). Again I ask, How is any of this working for most people???

Fact is, costs are so high and wages are so low that most family are just eking by. Most don't have the money to handle a medium to high emergency expense, and a vast percentage would need to declare bankruptcy after a major health problem. This is an economy that is failing it's people. But hey go MAGA away and maybe you get your wall because that is the most important thing.

Most families are not eking by. Liberal delusion at his finest.

Poor people are poor and there will always be poor people. There are always going to be poor people, period that's the real world. Unless of course you want to go to a socialist economy? That's going really well for venezuela..

Maybe we could go to a single payer healthcare system and add 3 trillion in taxes a year. That'd be aqesome

[Xville]

GDP growth not a reflective measure for how the economy treats the poor and middle class, especially when the gains go to the top 1%. So there is that, there is also that tricky depression that happened a year before he took office. That nasty depression where we were literally on the brink. I didn't agree with some of the things he did, but he took us off of a nasty ledge that any banking/business savvy person would see.

Justification for how poor of a president from an economic standpoint he was.

[ArizonaXUGrad]

Most families are not eking by. Liberal delusion at his finest.

Poor people are poor and there will always be poor people. There are always going to be poor people, period that's the real world. Unless of course you want to go to a socialist economy? That's going really well for venezuela..

Maybe we could go to a single payer healthcare system and add 3 trillion in taxes a year. That'd be aqesome

Why is it that the entire world can do single payer effectively, yet we can't MAGA our way to match them? That is kind of an interesting question there. Maybe we don't navigate the same circles, but the middle class families I know don't have the kind of retirement and savings they should at the ages they are. Basic things like cars, homes, food, healthcare, and upkeep for all, have all kept that down. This generation will work longer then any previous. Car loans have already started to push to the 6-7 year range, I expect home loans to increase to 40 years soon.

[Caf]

Most families are not eking by. Liberal delusion at his finest.

Poor people are poor and there will always be poor people. There are always going to be poor people, period that's the real world.

I don't think it has to be explained that it's about wealth distribution, not eliminating poverty. The Gini Index is at near all-time highs. I think 1929 and just before WW2 are the last times it was higher. It's been lower the majority of United States history, so I don't see why you're implying that socialism is the only way to alleviate the issue.

And the "real world" is actually that when this happens poor people get pissed off and overthrow governments or allow authoritarians to take over.

[Strange Brew]

I don't think it has to be explained that it's about wealth distribution, not eliminating poverty. The Gini Index is at near all-time highs. I think 1929 and just before WW2 are the last times it was higher. It's been lower the majority of United States history, so I don't see why you're implying that socialism is the only way to alleviate the issue.

And the "real world" is actually that when this happens poor people get pissed off and overthrow governments or allow authoritarians to take over.

Thank you for outlining one of the many reasons the 2nd is in the Constitution.

[Xville]

I don't think it has to be explained that it's about wealth distribution, not eliminating poverty. The Gini Index is at near all-time highs. I think 1929 and just before WW2 are the last times it was higher. It's been lower the majority of United States history, so I don't see why you're implying that socialism is the only way to alleviate the issue.

And the "real world" is actually that when this happens poor people get pissed off and overthrow governments or allow authoritarians to take over.

An outdated measurement developed by a fascist. Brilliant!

[Caf]

An outdated measurement developed by a fascist. Brilliant!

I'm all ears on alternatives that say otherwise.

[Xville]

Why is it that the entire world can do single payer effectively, yet we can't MAGA our way to match them? That is kind of an interesting question there. Maybe we don't navigate the same circles, but the middle class families I know don't have the kind of retirement and savings they should at the ages they are. Basic things like cars, homes, food, healthcare, and upkeep for all, have all kept that down. This generation will work longer then any previous. Car loans have already started to push to the 6-7 year range, I expect home loans to increase to 40 years soon.

Let me ask you a question....you really want the government running healthcare? Even if you say yes, which in my opinion is freaking nuts, there are a lot of other factors....

For one the US has at the very least 5 times the population of the next country that has it. Secondly, and probably biggest issue of all, is that there would be minimal if any money saved. I get taxed enough, I don't need more taxes.

I agree the healthcare system is effed up and something needs to be done, what I don't know, but the government taking it over is not the answer IMO.

[Lloyd Braun]

Actually the satisfaction rate in healthcare is typically highest among those with government-run plans (Medicare, Tricare, Medicaid) than those with commercial or no insurance.

[Xville]

Actually the satisfaction rate in healthcare is typically highest among those with government-run plans (Medicare, Tricare, Medicaid) than those with commercial or no insurance.

Typically yes, but you are talking about very small populations compared to the US. Studies have shown that in the US, cost savings would be minimal and just redistributed in taxes which no thanks i pay enough.

Plus, you want to talk about hurting an economy in the short term....holy crap. Just think of the number of companies that are run based on our current healthcare system...not just talking insurance companies here.

[Lloyd Braun]

You may feel that you pay enough in taxes but your healthcare costs in the future will far supercede any taxes that would accrue. Premium rates for healthcare are increasing at rates that are not sustainable. The indirect cost of those uninsured will increase next year when the mandate goes away. What I don’t understand is why if it’s called a tax, it is evil, yet when you pay more than you would as a tax to a private and likely equally corrupt insurance company it is just free market. Some things should not be free market in my opinion, healthcare being one of them as there will always be people that cannot afford it.

[Lloyd Braun]

Also, the large population should be an advantage for the US. The more people that are insured lowers total cost.

[bigdiggins]

Why is it that the entire world can do single payer effectively, yet we can't MAGA our way to match them? That is kind of an interesting question there. Maybe we don't navigate the same circles, but the middle class families I know don't have the kind of retirement and savings they should at the ages they are. Basic things like cars, homes, food, healthcare, and upkeep for all, have all kept that down. This generation will work longer then any previous. Car loans have already started to push to the 6-7 year range, I expect home loans to increase to 40 years soon.

If people need a 6-7 year loan they are purchasing a car they quite simply can't afford. Encourage those in your circle to attend Financial Peace. Buy a used car in the price range you can afford. Oh the horror of not having a bumper to bumper warranty for five years on a brand new minivan with wifi in it. I spent a weekend this summer putting a new suspension on our 10 year old SUV. I'm an accountant not a mechanic; I looked how to do it on you tube. Cost less than half the dealer quote. It's not my responsibility for the people in your circle to live the lifestyle they want now, and to save enough for retirement. It's their responsibility to figure out what is truly important to them and make choices.

[Masterofreality]

Also, the large population should be an advantage for the US. The more people that are insured lowers total cost.

Then why has the Dem controlled legislature in Vermont passed single payer Health Care, but has never implemented it?
Answer: Because it would be exorbitantly expensive, break the state budget, and not work.

[Lloyd Braun]

Then why has the Dem controlled legislature in Vermont passed single payer Health Care, but has never implemented it?
Answer: Because it would be exorbitantly expensive, break the state budget, and not work.

Vermont doesn’t have a large population. It won’t work on the state level unfortunately.

[Lloyd Braun]

Then why has the Dem controlled legislature in Vermont passed single payer Health Care, but has never implemented it?
Answer: Because it would be exorbitantly expensive, break the state budget, and not work.

And why does everything have to be about Dems vs Repubs? My god it’s exhausting.

[Xville]

Also, the large population should be an advantage for the US. The more people that are insured lowers total cost.

In free market, yes...In single payer healthcare that the government controls, that's not the case

[Caf]

In free market, yes...In single payer healthcare that the government controls, that's not the case

Why? And also why not in government run plans like medicare?

[Xville]

If people need a 6-7 year loan they are purchasing a car they quite simply can't afford. Encourage those in your circle to attend Financial Peace. Buy a used car in the price range you can afford. Oh the horror of not having a bumper to bumper warranty for five years on a brand new minivan with wifi in it. I spent a weekend this summer putting a new suspension on our 10 year old SUV. I'm an accountant not a mechanic; I looked how to do it on you tube. Cost less than half the dealer quote. It's not my responsibility for the people in your circle to live the lifestyle they want now, and to save enough for retirement. It's their responsibility to figure out what is truly important to them and make choices.

Amen!!!!!

[ArizonaXUGrad]

If people need a 6-7 year loan they are purchasing a car they quite simply can't afford. Encourage those in your circle to attend Financial Peace. Buy a used car in the price range you can afford. Oh the horror of not having a bumper to bumper warranty for five years on a brand new minivan with wifi in it. I spent a weekend this summer putting a new suspension on our 10 year old SUV. I'm an accountant not a mechanic; I looked how to do it on you tube. Cost less than half the dealer quote. It's not my responsibility for the people in your circle to live the lifestyle they want now, and to save enough for retirement. It's their responsibility to figure out what is truly important to them and make choices.

Flew right past my point. Costs are rising at a rate higher than wages causing things like I mentioned to occur. Homes and cars are normally our biggest debts. I remember you could get a 3 year loan. Those are gone and not because people like me don’t want them, it because most people can’t. I am 42 and I believe I will see a 40 year note on a house on the bond market.


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[Xville]

Why? And also why not in government run plans like medicare?

Are you serious? It's the same pool of money. If anything prices increase due to rise in population because (I'm going to let you in on a dirty little secret) not everyone pays taxes.

[ArizonaXUGrad]

Healthcare, consider Europe as a whole has single payer. They also have 750M people. They make it work by eliminating the profit motive and by Xville’s desire they are. It government run. Britain being the exception.


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[Caf]

Are you serious? It's the same pool of money.

and where does that money come from?

[Caf]

Are you serious? It's the same pool of money. If anything prices increase due to rise in population because (I'm going to let you in on a dirty little secret) not everyone pays taxes.

Prices of what increase? Care? Drugs?

[Xville]

and where does that money come from?

Taxes, which again as I pointed out not everyone in this country pays...so if you are going to give "free" healthcare to everyone, it only makes sense that the more population, the more costs associated.

[Xville]

Healthcare, consider Europe as a whole has single payer. They also have 750M people. They make it work by eliminating the profit motive and by Xville’s desire they are. It government run. Britain being the exception.


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Except that all of Europe isn't single payer so...there's that. More don't have single payer that do.

[Caf]

Taxes, which again as I pointed out not everyone in this country pays...so if you are going to give "free" healthcare to everyone, it only makes sense that the more population, the more costs associated.

So the larger insurance pool wouldn't be enough by the amount of delinquent taxes or non-earners. Therefore, people who can already afford insurance will have to pay more. Is that what you're saying? Is that what you mean by "prices"?

[Xville]

So the larger insurance pool wouldn't be enough by the amount of delinquent taxes or non-earners. Therefore, people who can already afford insurance will have to pay more. Is that what you're saying? Is that what you mean by "prices"?

https://townhall.com/tipsheet/guybenson/2018/07/31/liberals-respond-to-medicare-for-alls-astonishing-price-tag-byattacking-the-koch-brothers-n2505163

Admittedly, this is a far right conservative lean...however, there are studies within the article that are "unbiased."

[boozehound]

Thank you for outlining one of the many reasons the 2nd is in the Constitution.

Wait, what? That seems like an argument against the 2nd amendment, unless you are in support of the lower class overthrowing the government. It's not like the 2nd amendment only gives wealthy people the right to bear arms.

History is full of examples. It's essentially the life cycle of a society. The wealthy find ways to grow and protect their wealth at the expense of the lower classes until the lower classes eventually (and usually violently) revolt. There are typically two ways to prevent said revolt: (1) create a level of oppression that prevents the lower classes from rising up, or (2) keep the lower classes just happy enough that they don't want to risk what they have by revolting. Arming the proletariat seems like a way to hasten uprising if anything.

I'm not making a value judgement on this - I'm just saying it's human nature.

[boozehound]

Taxes, which again as I pointed out not everyone in this country pays...so if you are going to give "free" healthcare to everyone, it only makes sense that the more population, the more costs associated.

I have a good job with good benefits and I pay like $700 a month for health insurance for my family. The average American that carries health insurance could deal with a significant tax increase if they didn't have to pay insurance. People forget that we already have single payer for a significant portion of our medical expenses as a country - it's called Medicare. It kicks in when you are older and your likelihood of significant medical expenses are higher.

What would you say if I asked you to invest in a health insurance company that only covered people 65+? You would tell me I'm crazy, because the core definition of a risk pool is to have as many healthy people as possible paying in to offset the costs of the unhealthy. That's what Medicare is, and why it's so expensive - it doesn't have the benefit of younger, healthier people paying in to offset the costs of care for the elderly.

Single payer creates the largest possible risk pool, which should minimize costs across the network - it's fundamentally how insurance works. I do recognize the argument about the government administering healthcare as concerning, however I personally feel the benefits outweigh the risks. I also think that there is a tremendous disincentive to small business baked into our current healthcare system that is problematic.

[bjf123]

I know people love to cite the universal coverage a single payer system provides. I’ve read that in so of those countries , you can buy additional medical insurance to get service faster and get coverage for items the government run program doesn’t cover.

How long does it take to get an MRI in the US? If the weekend warriors among us tear an ACL playing softball on Saturday, we can probably get in to see a doctor on Monday or Tuesday and will have the MRI done within the week. Do the same thing in the UK or Canada and it could be months before you even see the first doctor. We’d never put up with that in the US. We want and expect everything now. A MAJOR cultural shift would be needed.


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[Caf]

https://townhall.com/tipsheet/guybenson/2018/07/31/liberals-respond-to-medicare-for-alls-astonishing-price-tag-byattacking-the-koch-brothers-n2505163

Admittedly, this is a far right conservative lean...however, there are studies within the article that are "unbiased."

The effectiveness of a government sponsored or single payer system would be dependent on the decrease of the underlying costs of care and drugs. The scale you're mentioning is not an actual issue, it already exists. Here's a "dirty little secret" for you. You're already paying for other people's healthcare in exorbitant hospital, doctors, and drug prices. The whole system is propped up on higher prices for those who have insurance and free access for those who don't. For example, hospitals have to care for people who don't have insurance and they offset that cost by charging you more.

I don't feel strongly about any solution. I am definitely not for the current system that leaves us paying for emergency care for others while allowing people like yourself to pretend they're only paying for what they get.

[ArizonaXUGrad]

I know people love to cite the universal coverage a single payer system provides. I’ve read that in so of those countries , you can buy additional medical insurance to get service faster and get coverage for items the government run program doesn’t cover.

How long does it take to get an MRI in the US? If the weekend warriors among us tear an ACL playing softball on Saturday, we can probably get in to see a doctor on Monday or Tuesday and will have the MRI done within the week. Do the same thing in the UK or Canada and it could be months before you even see the first doctor. We’d never put up with that in the US. We want and expect everything now. A MAJOR cultural shift would be needed.


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This is the biggest pile of crap I will read all day. I have friends and family that live in Canada. I have family that lives and works in the UK. I used to live in Germany. It does not take months to get an MRI. That is fox news bullshit. I will give you their phone numbers, you can call them have them call BS to that crap. I just visited them, and visited my Uncle whose daughter lives in the UK. Good god, perpetuating this myth is the exact reason stupid people believe universal healthcare is bad.

[boozehound]

I know people love to cite the universal coverage a single payer system provides. I’ve read that in so of those countries , you can buy additional medical insurance to get service faster and get coverage for items the government run program doesn’t cover.

How long does it take to get an MRI in the US? If the weekend warriors among us tear an ACL playing softball on Saturday, we can probably get in to see a doctor on Monday or Tuesday and will have the MRI done within the week. Do the same thing in the UK or Canada and it could be months before you even see the first doctor. We’d never put up with that in the US. We want and expect everything now. A MAJOR cultural shift would be needed.


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That is accurate in some countries, and I fully support it. If you have the means and desire to pay for better health care, you should have that right. I think that we should have basic, 'good', healthcare for everyone with supplemental better healthcare available for those who choose to pay for it. I'm somewhat unique from much of the pro single-payer crowd in that I few it almost entirely from a financial perspective rather than a 'right to equal care' perspective.

[boozehound]

This is the biggest pile of crap I will read all day. I have friends and family that live in Canada. I have family that lives and works in the UK. I used to live in Germany. It does not take months to get an MRI. That is fox news bullshit. I will give you their phone numbers, you can call them have them call BS to that crap. I just visited them, and visited my Uncle whose daughter lives in the UK. Good god, perpetuating this myth is the exact reason stupid people believe universal healthcare is bad.

I have had a similar experience. I have relatives in Canada, the UK, France, and Italy and they all love their healthcare systems.

[X-man]

I know people love to cite the universal coverage a single payer system provides. I’ve read that in so of those countries , you can buy additional medical insurance to get service faster and get coverage for items the government run program doesn’t cover.

How long does it take to get an MRI in the US? If the weekend warriors among us tear an ACL playing softball on Saturday, we can probably get in to see a doctor on Monday or Tuesday and will have the MRI done within the week. Do the same thing in the UK or Canada and it could be months before you even see the first doctor. We’d never put up with that in the US. We want and expect everything now. A MAJOR cultural shift would be needed.


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Don't know about Canada, but using the UK as your benchmark for single payer is a red herring. Try France if you want to see a system that works and works well. And yes, well functioning systems allow people with the means and desire to do so, to buy supplemental private insurance to broaden and deepen access to healthcare. Actually Medicare does the same thing in this country. You can go the HMO route with a Medicare Advantage plan, or buy more access to a general healthcare network with a supplemental plan. And within supplemental plans, you have 10-12 plans to choose from. They vary in the level of coverage and the premium you must pay. The insurance is from the private sector and is not subsidized by anyone.

[ArizonaXUGrad]

I agree X-Man, look more to France/Germany/etc. Those countries have that option to purchase healthcare outside of the non-profit system. My friend and old neighbor works at BMW near Munich, he does very well and purchases separate insurance for his wife and child. The rest of their family are on the mandated plan.

[paulxu]

The European countries (with the exception of England) don't have government run health care. They have universal health care, with most systems being some form of single payer. Taking insurance costs (administration, marketing, etc) out of the equation, naturally lowers the cost. And yes, they don't pay as much for drugs, nor do their doctors make so much.

But like police and fire, they made a social decision to cover everyone. And they've done it at about 1/2 the cost we pay. And their results are better.
Why we want to spend 18% of our GDP on health care while they pay 8-10% is beyond me. It makes us less competitive in the global market as these are costs often born in our products. The real tragedy is that they cover EVERYONE...and we still have millions uninsured.

These numbers are 4 years old now, so the gap is larger in raw dollars. We don't come off so well:

https://www.commonwealthfund.org/sites/default/files/___media_images_publications_fund_report_2014_june _davis_mirror_2014_es1_for_web_h_511_w_740.jpg

[scoscox]

That conveniently leaves off metrics where we excel. Worth remembering that the US medical system is far superior in specialized care and medical technology and innovation in medical technology.

[Xville]

The problem that you all don't seem to be grasping, is who and how is a single payer health system going to be paid for? Income Taxes, Corporate Taxes, Capital Gains Taxes, Payroll Taxes to Corporations? Somehow, Someway this has to be paid for and again, none of the countries cited have anywhere close to our population not remotely close. Just because it works in some countries in Europe, doesn't mean it would work here.

Medicare has worked well in this country, about 40 trillion in the red at last count by the way.

[bjf123]

This is the biggest pile of crap I will read all day. I have friends and family that live in Canada. I have family that lives and works in the UK. I used to live in Germany. It does not take months to get an MRI. That is fox news bullshit. I will give you their phone numbers, you can call them have them call BS to that crap. I just visited them, and visited my Uncle whose daughter lives in the UK. Good god, perpetuating this myth is the exact reason stupid people believe universal healthcare is bad.

For the record, I think we'll ultimately end up with a single payer system. The costs are spiraling out of control and I don't see that stopping without government price controls which would be implemented the easiest with a single payer system where they can tell the ER that they won't pay $50 for an aspirin, $100 for a needle, $500 for a bag of saline that costs less than $1 to make, etc.

I work with someone who lived in both the UK and Canada. Had an ACL tear playing soccer in the UK. Didn't get to see a doc for weeks, but when she did get in, no MRI was allowed and the diagnosis was a slight knee sprain. Ice it and you'll be fine. Got back to the US months later and the knee hadn't gotten any better. Went to a doctor here and was immediately sent for an MRI. Yep, clearly a tear. I guess her experience was the one exception to the rule?

These reports from Canada also seems to disagree with the experiences of your family. https://www.fraserinstitute.org/studies/waiting-your-turn-wait-times-for-health-care-in-canada-2016
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/canadian-medical-tourism_us_5949b405e4b0db570d3778ff

[paulxu]

Do people understand what per capita means?

[Caf]

The problem that you all don't seem to be grasping, is who and how is a single payer health system going to be paid for? Income Taxes, Corporate Taxes, Capital Gains Taxes, Payroll Taxes to Corporations? Somehow, Someway this has to be paid for and again, none of the countries cited have anywhere close to our population not remotely close. Just because it works in some countries in Europe, doesn't mean it would work here.

Medicare has worked well in this country, about 40 trillion in the red at last count by the way.

Who pays for the uninsured when they show up at ERs now?

[Xville]

Who pays for the uninsured when they show up at ERs now?

In the end, government and thus you and I do. That's on a per incident basis, and not every uninsured person go to the er..so how much of a cost now would it be to basically insure everyone 24/7?

Some on here try to say costs would go down because of the larger pool, that's only the case in a private free market system, not the system we are talking about.

You in for trillions more in federal spending, more corporate taxes, capital gains taxes etc? How do you think wages for workers would look then?

[Xville]

I agree X-Man, look more to France/Germany/etc. Those countries have that option to purchase healthcare outside of the non-profit system. My friend and old neighbor works at BMW near Munich, he does very well and purchases separate insurance for his wife and child. The rest of their family are on the mandated plan.

So your buddy does very well for himself, has option for "free healthcare" yet chooses not to...I thought the healthcare there was so fantastic? So not only is he paying into crappy mandated plan, but supplemental as well because why? He just feels like it, or is it because services suck

[X-man]

Do people understand what per capita means?

Apparently not. Nor do they understand that healthcare is not a free good no matter how it is paid for. If it isn't paid for by taxes, it is paid for by insurance. But the point is that it costs less per capita no matter how it is paid for in single payer countries (at least some of them). And the outcomes in terms of impact on healthcare are better in single payer systems. This isn't high math here, just facts.