The Second Amendment and Police Shootings

[Muskie in dayton]

The Second Amendment to our Constitution gives citizens the right to bear arms. One of the key arguments even today for why this is important is to serve as the ultimate check against governmental tyranny – the “insurrectionist” argument. According to this argument, it is right of the people to revolt against government tyranny.

Across the country, we have seen multiple examples where the government has exhibited the ultimate tyranny, in the form of police murdering citizens of a demographic without apparent justification. Based on that, numerous citizens of that demographic across the country have exercised their Second Amendment Right and taken up arms to fight the police.

Is there a problem here?

[xubrew]

Yes, it's a problem, but it's worth pointing out that the number of police killed in the line of duty is actually less than half of what it was forty years ago, and I'd be willing the bet that the majority of the officers killed were gunned down by people who did not legally obtain the weapons.

I think one of the problems is that we've always been crazy, we've always been close to the same kind of crazy, and yet we don't realize that we're crazy and we always have been. Maybe we need to focus more on how crazy we've always been in our history classes or something.

[xubrew]

To build on this, the song Cop Killer is 24 years old. The gang wars and LA riots in the 1990s happened a generation ago. Cincinnati had race riots 16 years ago. The Black Power movement and Civil Rights movements often clashed with the police and those were 40-50 years ago. If you watch the 1968 Democratic Convention I wouldn't call that an example of a positive relationship between the police and the citizenry.

There has never really been a point in our history where we weren't batshit crazy in one form or another. I mean, 150 some odd years ago, we actually went to war with ourselves.

[SemajParlor]

To build on this, the song Cop Killer is 24 years old. The gang wars and LA riots in the 1990s happened a generation ago. Cincinnati had race riots 16 years ago.



This episode aired in 1991.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GTbxVFTDdo0

[nuts4xu]

Across the country, we have seen multiple examples where the government has exhibited the ultimate tyranny, in the form of police murdering citizens of a demographic without apparent justification.

Really? So a cop goes to the station to start his day, has some coffee, goes to a briefing meeting, completes some paperwork, leaves the station, and proceeds to hunt down and commence with "murdering" citizens, for no reason? Do you honestly believe this hyperbole?

I don't know why someone would join the police department in today's age of crazy fuckers. I know there have been some controversial exchanges between police and citizens, but by and large, the police in most areas protect and serve their communities. In even the most extreme cases, had the subject complied with police orders, they would not have been shot. I am not defending ANY of the police shootings, or the rogue cops that make poor decisions. But the line of thinking that police are "murdering citizens" for no reason is part of the problem.

Are you trying to justify the ambush and execution of 5 Dallas police officers as "exercising their 2nd amendment right"? The second amendment says nothing about tyranny or killing cops. It says nothing about going off to war, coming back with PTSD, strapping up, and going on a hunt for whitey cops. What did those police officers in Dallas have to do with any of the other shootings of citizens the past 12 months? Did I miss something? Have they even had a police shooting in Dallas?

[NY44]

Really? So a cop goes to the station to start his day, has some coffee, goes to a briefing meeting, completes some paperwork, leaves the station, and proceeds to hunt down and commence with "murdering" citizens, for no reason? Do you honestly believe this hyperbole?

I don't know why someone would join the police department in today's age of crazy fuckers. I know there have been some controversial exchanges between police and citizens, but by and large, the police in most areas protect and serve their communities. In even the most extreme cases, had the subject complied with police orders, they would not have been shot. I am not defending ANY of the police shootings, or the rogue cops that make poor decisions. But the line of thinking that police are "murdering citizens" for no reason is part of the problem.

Are you trying to justify the ambush and execution of 5 Dallas police officers as "exercising their 2nd amendment right"? The second amendment says nothing about tyranny or killing cops. It says nothing about going off to war, coming back with PTSD, strapping up, and going on a hunt for whitey cops. What did those police officers in Dallas have to do with any of the other shootings of citizens the past 12 months? Did I miss something? Have they even had a police shooting in Dallas?

You are literally defending them by saying, "had the subject complied with police orders, they would not have been shot".

[xubrew]

I don't know why someone would join the police department in today's age of crazy fuckers.

I realize my response wreaks of tongue-in-cheek pessimism, but then again, is it really wrong??

We've ALWAYS been a bunch of crazy fuckers. That's part of the American condition. Seriously, it's actually safer to be a cop now than at virtually any point. Forty years ago, twice as many cops were killed in the line of duty, and I don't think there were nearly as many cops back then. Over 100 years ago, there were as many cops killed in the line of duty during the labor movements and what not, and there weren't nearly as many cops (or states) back then.

We've always been nuts, and we've always been afraid of something. It's always been tough to be a cop, and it's always been tough to be a minority living in a working class or low socioeconomic community.

We now fear ISIS and the tens of thousands of war refugees who come into this country under refugee status even though it is very difficult to obtain that status (although oddly enough aren't at all afraid of the tens of millions of people who come to this country on travel visas that are very easily obtained).

In the previous decade we feared Iraq and were still reeling from 9/11.

Throughout the 1990s we had the gang wars and race riots

In the 1980s we were still fighting the Cold War, plus the gangs were on the rise, as was the crack epidemic and the AIDS epidemic which had a significant number of people actually campaigning for homosexuals to be put into internment camps. (hmmm....sound familiar?)

The 1970s began with us still in Vietnam, and ended in such bad shape that Jimmy Carter was giving his "Nation of Crisis speech."

The 1960s was perhaps the most violent and divisive period in our history since the Compromise of 1877, which basically ended Reconstruction, and that's saying a lot

In the 1950s we all feared communism, and African Americans, along with women, were viewed as second class citizens.

In the 1940s we were engaged in a total war, and that could not have been fun.

The 1930s was the Great Depression, which was rough on everyone, but particularly rough on blacks and minorities.

The 1920s was heavily under gang and mob rule, and people were so fed up with the government and police, many actually rooted for the gangsters.

In the decade before that, the 1910s, I guess, we had some of the biggest race riots in our history, (Tulsa and Chicago). I think more people were killed in 24 hrs in both cases than were killed in any mass shooting we have, or in any other riot. Yet, we've completely forgotten this. I guess we don't like learning about things that aren't pleasant to learn about.

Then you start going back into post-Reconstruction (which basically re instituted the Jim Crow laws with the Compromise of 1877 after nearly going to war again in 1876), Reconstruction itself, the Civil War, the violence and tension that led to the Civil War, The "borrowing" of more and more land from the Native Americans, and right on back to the Revolutionary War where no one could agree on how to pay the soldiers, and where three states threatened to dissolve the union over a dispute of whether or not states should have their own money, or have a national currency instead.

We've always been nuts. It's never been easy. We're a nation of immigrants, yet we've always been opposed to whatever the newest wave of immigrants happen to be. So....I just look at what we're experiencing now as par for the course.

[SemajParlor]

Are you trying to justify the ambush and execution of 5 Dallas police officers as "exercising their 2nd amendment right"? The second amendment says nothing about tyranny or killing cops. It says nothing about going off to war, coming back with PTSD, strapping up, and going on a hunt for whitey cops. What did those police officers in Dallas have to do with any of the other shootings of citizens the past 12 months? Did I miss something? Have they even had a police shooting in Dallas?

Anyone who tries to remotely justify what that guy did in Dallas, even if it's tongue and cheek, should not be taken seriously. Anyone with half a brain knows that was a horrific tragedy and is not remotely close to the answer. It's strange to say in this day and age, but it's reasonable to support the police and call for policy changes.

Moronic extremists perpetuated by media pundits have created an environment that drowns out rational thought to any situation.

[xubrew]

Anyone who tries to remotely justify what that guy did in Dallas, even if it's tongue and cheek, should not be taken seriously. Anyone with half a brain knows that was a horrific tragedy and is not remotely close to the answer. It's strange to say in this day and age, but it's reasonable to support the police and call for policy changes.

Moronic extremists perpetuated by media pundits have created an environment that drowns out rational thought to any situation.

I don't think this guy was all that influenced by the media. I think he had a psychological condition, and it's the combination between that condition and his own life experiences that drove him to it. I don't think he sat around watching MSNBC and CNN, and that's what ultimately drove him to do it.

[NY44]

I meant to post this yesterday, but the Dallas Police Chief's statement yesterday was very eye opening. Especially the below:


We’re asking cops to do too much in this country. We are. Every societal failure, we put it off on the cops to solve. Not enough mental health funding, let the cops handle it. Here in Dallas we got a loose dog problem; let’s have the cops chase loose dogs. Schools fail, let’s give it to the cops. That’s too much to ask. Policing was never meant to solve all those problems.

[GoMuskies]

Muskie in Dayton can correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think he was trying to justify the cop shootings. I think this thread was intended as a shot (so to speak) at the current interpretation of the 2nd Amendment.

[SemajParlor]

Muskie in Dayton can correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think he was trying to justify the cop shootings. I think this thread was intended as a shot (so to speak) at the current interpretation of the 2nd Amendment.

I thought so too.

[SemajParlor]

I don't think this guy was all that influenced by the media. I think he had a psychological condition, and it's the combination between that condition and his own life experiences that drove him to it. I don't think he sat around watching MSNBC and CNN, and that's what ultimately drove him to do it.

Yeah of course not. I'm saying the separation and divide in this country on stances such as police relations and civilians is perpetuated and exaggerated by the media appealing to their audience. There's a reasonable middle ground to a lot of these current issues we face that are being eroded by stupidity and extremism. Just my 2 cents.

[MADXSTER]

Cincinnati had race riots 16 years ago.

This is actually incorrect. Over 75% of those involved were under 18 years of age. The papers and media initially deamed it race riots but when all the smoke cleared it was really a bunch of thugs(not gangstas) causing all of the problems. Once it was over no one really wanted to stir the pot and argue semantics. Everyone just wanted to move forward.

[xubrew]

This is actually incorrect. Over 75% of those involved were under 18 years of age. The papers and media initially deamed it race riots but when all the smoke cleared it was really a bunch of thugs(not gangstas) causing all of the problems. Once it was over no one really wanted to stir the pot and argue semantics. Everyone just wanted to move forward.

I worked at the Drop Inn Center at the time and had actually lived down in OTR before that and knew the kid who was shot (albeit not well). So, I think I had a pretty good idea of how people felt and what led to it. Racial tension and tension with the police that had been building for years were the two things that fueled what happened more than anything else. There were over sixty arrests and felony indictments, and although it wasn't nearly as extreme there was some violence on the day the cop was acquitted. There was also some violence at the funeral procession when police fired been bag bullets into the crowd. Whether you want to call it a race riot or not, OTR had a lot of minorities who were pissed off at the police, and I can't say that I blamed them.

[MADXSTER]

I actually don't know what to call it. Yes there were racial tensions. Yes there was some violence. But IMO to call it race riots is a bit misleading. I guess when I think of race riots, I tend to think of things that happened in the 60's and this incident was not on that level.

[xubrew]

I actually don't know what to call it. Yes there were racial tensions. Yes there was some violence. But IMO to call it race riots is a bit misleading. I guess when I think of race riots, I tend to think of things that happened in the 60's and this incident was not on that level.

I understand you. Actually by riot standards, it was probably pretty tame, but it was still the biggest shit show that I've ever personally experienced. I do not have what it takes to be in combat, because that was nowhere near combat level, and it still scared the shit out of me.

But, what I wanted to get across was that it wasn't something that fell out of the sky. The tension had been building for YEARS. And the friction that exists now between the police and a lot of the citizenry isn't new either. It has always been there, ESPECIALLY in the low socioeconomic areas that are densely populated with a high percentage of minorities. I'm almost amazed at how we collectively don't realize that there really has never been a point where there wasn't tension and animosity toward the police.

[Muskie in dayton]

Muskie in Dayton can correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think he was trying to justify the cop shootings. I think this thread was intended as a shot (so to speak) at the current interpretation of the 2nd Amendment.

You are correct. Subtle hyperbole.

But seriously, its check-mate for the gun nuts. The ridiculous, "we need guns to defend against government tyranny" argument is dead. I can't wait until someone pukes that back at me.

[Strange Brew]

You are correct. Subtle hyperbole.

But seriously, its check-mate for the gun nuts. The ridiculous, "we need guns to defend against government tyranny" argument is dead. I can't wait until someone pukes that back at me.

Ok, Americans have a 2nd Amendment right to defend our property and lives against a tyrannical gov't and non governmental threats. That said, those who do are likely to be charged with treason or potentially a crime so as always it is wise to carefully pick your fights.

We really live in a nutty place if people no longer believe in the right of defense against threats to life and property.

[Snipe]

Really? So a cop goes to the station to start his day, has some coffee, goes to a briefing meeting, completes some paperwork, leaves the station, and proceeds to hunt down and commence with "murdering" citizens, for no reason? Do you honestly believe this hyperbole?

I don't know why someone would join the police department in today's age of crazy fuckers. I know there have been some controversial exchanges between police and citizens, but by and large, the police in most areas protect and serve their communities. In even the most extreme cases, had the subject complied with police orders, they would not have been shot. I am not defending ANY of the police shootings, or the rogue cops that make poor decisions. But the line of thinking that police are "murdering citizens" for no reason is part of the problem.

Are you trying to justify the ambush and execution of 5 Dallas police officers as "exercising their 2nd amendment right"? The second amendment says nothing about tyranny or killing cops. It says nothing about going off to war, coming back with PTSD, strapping up, and going on a hunt for whitey cops. What did those police officers in Dallas have to do with any of the other shootings of citizens the past 12 months? Did I miss something? Have they even had a police shooting in Dallas?

Amen brother. Dallas wasn't about the 2nd amendment

[Snipe]

The Second Amendment to our Constitution gives citizens the right to bear arms. One of the key arguments even today for why this is important is to serve as the ultimate check against governmental tyranny – the “insurrectionist” argument. According to this argument, it is right of the people to revolt against government tyranny.

Across the country, we have seen multiple examples where the government has exhibited the ultimate tyranny, in the form of police murdering citizens of a demographic without apparent justification. Based on that, numerous citizens of that demographic across the country have exercised their Second Amendment Right and taken up arms to fight the police.

Is there a problem here?

Can you give me some examples?

[Snipe]

I realize my response wreaks of tongue-in-cheek pessimism, but then again, is it really wrong??

We've ALWAYS been a bunch of crazy fuckers. That's part of the American condition. Seriously, it's actually safer to be a cop now than at virtually any point. Forty years ago, twice as many cops were killed in the line of duty, and I don't think there were nearly as many cops back then. Over 100 years ago, there were as many cops killed in the line of duty during the labor movements and what not, and there weren't nearly as many cops (or states) back then.

We've always been nuts, and we've always been afraid of something. It's always been tough to be a cop, and it's always been tough to be a minority living in a working class or low socioeconomic community.

We now fear ISIS and the tens of thousands of war refugees who come into this country under refugee status even though it is very difficult to obtain that status (although oddly enough aren't at all afraid of the tens of millions of people who come to this country on travel visas that are very easily obtained).

In the previous decade we feared Iraq and were still reeling from 9/11.

Throughout the 1990s we had the gang wars and race riots

In the 1980s we were still fighting the Cold War, plus the gangs were on the rise, as was the crack epidemic and the AIDS epidemic which had a significant number of people actually campaigning for homosexuals to be put into internment camps. (hmmm....sound familiar?)

The 1970s began with us still in Vietnam, and ended in such bad shape that Jimmy Carter was giving his "Nation of Crisis speech."

The 1960s was perhaps the most violent and divisive period in our history since the Compromise of 1877, which basically ended Reconstruction, and that's saying a lot

In the 1950s we all feared communism, and African Americans, along with women, were viewed as second class citizens.

In the 1940s we were engaged in a total war, and that could not have been fun.

The 1930s was the Great Depression, which was rough on everyone, but particularly rough on blacks and minorities.

The 1920s was heavily under gang and mob rule, and people were so fed up with the government and police, many actually rooted for the gangsters.

In the decade before that, the 1910s, I guess, we had some of the biggest race riots in our history, (Tulsa and Chicago). I think more people were killed in 24 hrs in both cases than were killed in any mass shooting we have, or in any other riot. Yet, we've completely forgotten this. I guess we don't like learning about things that aren't pleasant to learn about.

Then you start going back into post-Reconstruction (which basically re instituted the Jim Crow laws with the Compromise of 1877 after nearly going to war again in 1876), Reconstruction itself, the Civil War, the violence and tension that led to the Civil War, The "borrowing" of more and more land from the Native Americans, and right on back to the Revolutionary War where no one could agree on how to pay the soldiers, and where three states threatened to dissolve the union over a dispute of whether or not states should have their own money, or have a national currency instead.

We've always been nuts. It's never been easy. We're a nation of immigrants, yet we've always been opposed to whatever the newest wave of immigrants happen to be. So....I just look at what we're experiencing now as par for the course.

I do appreciate your history, but many people feel (and polling reflects it) that race relations are worse now than in any point in their lives. How do we explain that? I watched Ferguson burn. I watched Baltimore Burn. I just watched the Dallas shootings. This is not a good trajectory to be going on. It is fine and nice to say "We are crazy and have always been crazy, but this stuff hasn't been happening and now it is. For the record, I blame Republicans who like to cut taxes.

[Juice]

Can you give me some examples?

http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/nyc-crime/nypd-peter-liang-guilty-fatal-shooting-akai-gurley-article-1.2528827

Not murder but manslaughter

(To be clear, I don't agree with most of Muskie in Dayton's post, but there are examples)

[Snipe]

You are literally defending them by saying, "had the subject complied with police orders, they would not have been shot".

I tell my kids to comply with police orders, and I think it would be good advice for me to give to you too if you honestly don't believe it.

Our laws are enforced by men with guns. Every single law in enforced by men with guns. That is one reason I want more freedom and fewer laws. Lets get rid of the drug laws for instance. It would do the country well to be rid of victimless crimes.

Eric Garner died in New York City for selling loose cigarettes. Everyone blames the police, but nobody blames all the liberals in the People's Republic of New York City who made those laws. Try buying a pack of cigarettes in NYC, the average cost is $14 for a pack. You can easily get mugged for a carton of cigarettes because it is worth $140. When you go into a convience store that says, "we only have $40 in the register, the rest is in a time lock safe" it doesn't matter, because all those cartons are worth thousands. You can actually make good coin smuggling drugs into New York, and you don't even have to know Pablo Escobar. All you need to do is smuggle cigarettes. If I was ever going to be a drug smuggler, I would take a semi full of cigarettes to New York City. At least my conscience wouldn't be so bad.

You think cops want to fuck with a guy selling loose cigarettes? No. Cops don't get to make the laws. They don't have legislative powers. They are tasked with enforcing the laws. Now NYC makes a lot of money from sin taxes on cigarettes. They are just another middle man in the deadly drug trade, and they reap a great profit. But they also lose a lot of money because people pirate them in. People like Eric Garner buy smokes at the Seneca Indian reservation tax free, and then sell them loose. $14 a pack is around 70 cents a cigarette. Easy to undercut that. It is easy to see how someone could set up shop on the street and make hundreds of dollars a day (tax free!). And he is not selling heroin, crack or even pot. He is selling what everyone is allowed to do anyway by law (they just have to pay the Peoples Republic of New York City for the privilege).

Do you think any cops want to mess with this guy? He is a big black man, and he isn't causing them any problems. But the cops don't get to decide what laws to enforce and which ones to ignore. Other liberals that run NYC have made these laws, and they want the men in Blue to enforce them. A lot of money is obviously at stake. In the end, it is always about the Tubmans!

So these cops go up to Eric Garner because he has once again set up shop on the street and doing illegal commerce. They have orders to make him cease and desist. He is so pissed at this happens again that his last words before the fabled "I can't breathe" were "THIS ENDS TODAY!". And it was on, and he was resisting arrest. Then the cops piled on because that is what they do when someone is attacked and next thing you know a terribly obese man is dead. And we blame the cops.

The cops don't make those laws. The cops would rather not screw with Eric Garner. They were made to by their betters, who will instantly disown them, belittle them and blame them when the shit hits the fan.

But yeah, if that fat fuck had complied with Police orders, he would be alive. Instead he said "THIS ENDS TODAY" and went after them, and now that fat fuck is dead. And I had nothing to do with it. And the police are just instruments of the state.

Every law is enforced by men with guns. Every single law. If you thought that you would stop paying your taxes because you want to protest George Bush's illegal wars, well guess what, at some point men with guns are going to show up and take your stuff. And if you resist them, fight them or don't comply with them you might end up dead. And they probably could give a shit about George Bush, or even your stupid ass protest, they are just doing their job.

I love how liberals love big government programs and ever bigger government but they are not for the tools to enforce their big government agenda. Well all those laws you keep making and advocating for increase the size and power of government, and then you protest that government is too powerful and abuses its power. Why don't you just grow up and become a libertarian, then you can just advocate for leaving shit alone.

[OH.X.MI]

. Eric Garner died in New York City for selling loose cigarettes. Everyone blames the police, but nobody blames all the liberals in the People's Republic of New York City who made those laws. Try buying a pack of cigarettes in NYC, the average cost is $14 for a pack. You can easily get mugged for a carton of cigarettes because it is worth $140.

Cant disagree with that. I visited NY44 in The People Republic of New York City once and spent half my life's savings on heaters in one night of drinking.

[Snipe]

I don't think this guy was all that influenced by the media. I think he had a psychological condition, and it's the combination between that condition and his own life experiences that drove him to it. I don't think he sat around watching MSNBC and CNN, and that's what ultimately drove him to do it.

He said he was mad about Black Lives Matter. He was influenced by George Soros funded Black Lives Matter. You can make some good money at Black Lives Matter working for racial discord.

[Juice]

He said he was mad about Black Lives Matter. He was influenced by George Soros funded Black Lives Matter. You can make some good money at Black Lives Matter working for racial discord.


Nick ValenciaVerified account
‏@CNNValencia
BREAKING- 3 people arrested w/ numerous stolen guns allegedly plotting to kill local police in Baton Rouge. 1-2 still at large: Sources #CNN

Luckily they caught these people before another Dallas happened. Hopefully the other suspects don't do anything stupid/illegal.

[Snipe]

http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/nyc-crime/nypd-peter-liang-guilty-fatal-shooting-akai-gurley-article-1.2528827

Not murder but manslaughter

(To be clear, I don't agree with most of Muskie in Dayton's post, but there are examples)

That is a horrible example. That guy was a scared rookie Asian cop, and his gun went off on accident, it ricocheted off a wall and killed a guy. I felt horrible for everyone reading that story. Is that guy actually going to be locked up and made to join the LGBTQ community in jail for that?

Bend over Ben Wah Balls! The Shit Storm At Rikers Island Is Coming!

And just a few months ago he was just an aspiring recruit. Welcome to the Pleasuredome


.

[Snipe]

Luckily they caught these people before another Dallas happened. Hopefully the other suspects don't do anything stupid/illegal.

Would be interested if they are local. Of the 50 people arrested in Batton Rouge, 43 were from out of state. The hot elegant black chick was from New York.

You can make some good money protesting, and they will fly you to the epicenter free of charge.

Excellent marketing btw, flying hot black chicks to get arrested. People called it the photo of the ages.

Black Lives Matter is a well funded group. I think a lot of the money comes from George Soros. He is not Black, but I heard he is Amazing.

Divide and Conquer.

[Snipe]

I meant to post this yesterday, but the Dallas Police Chief's statement yesterday was very eye opening. Especially the below:


We’re asking cops to do too much in this country. We are. Every societal failure, we put it off on the cops to solve. Not enough mental health funding, let the cops handle it. Here in Dallas we got a loose dog problem; let’s have the cops chase loose dogs. Schools fail, let’s give it to the cops. That’s too much to ask. Policing was never meant to solve all those problems.

That dovetails quite nicely with my post about how we ask too much from cops.

Yeah, I agree.


Schools fail, let’s give it to the cops. That’s too much to ask. Policing was never meant to solve all those problems.

Shitty schools, call the cops. Cops are called all the time to shitty schools. Sometimes they don't have the manpower to respond because so many fights in schools are going on. One of my dear friends is a Pastor. I attend his church a few times a year just so I can still say I am a Christian, but I am obviously a fraud at that. I guess I would like to think I am a Christian.

This Pastor showed up as a substitute and he couldn't stop the bloodletting in his own classroom. A Black Pastor, teaching Black children, and once they started fighting it wasn't just fighting but bloody fighting with actually blood. They told him first time he showed up as a substitute that if he wanted the job full time he could have it right away. He ran away.

The black community is broken. I have said it for awhile. It is still broken. It is more broken now than when Malcom X or Martin Luther King went on the march. All the kids are feral children with no fathers in the home. 75% of black kids are out of wedlock, but in the lowerclass of blackness like the West End that I live in, you don't see any traditional families. None. No young families raising children. It is all single mothers, and all fathers that are sperm donors. It is a recipe for disaster, and the disaster has already happened.

You have a class of rich Black folk that largely subscribe to the traditional standards. Those are the 10% that vote Republican. And they do very well. Mom and Dad both work. Those people don't live down here. They avoid it like the plague. And we shouldn't shame them into trying to sole the problem that is 75% of kids born out of wedlock either. Let them be free because we need some of them to lead the next generation. The talented 10th as they say in Black circles, will lead the way. Too bad the rest are screwed.

Low IQ single mothers can get pregnant at 15 and get housing and foodstamps. Then they can have 4 more kids in the next 6 years and increase their checks. The incentives are all wrong. We really are paying them to breed. That isn't racist. We are. And they understand the whole cause and effect, and they are breeding. You should meet some of them. It is actually scary. They have no idea what a five year plan actually is, and have never contemplated such an absurd thing. We subsidize their whole existence, and it is a horrible fate I wouldn't wish on any child. Some of these mothers are a nightmare, but they breed more prodigiously than any normal American who might worry about putting all those kids through college. Kids aren't expensive to them, they are a benefit. And they let their kids run feral without any regard, they are wards of the State from birth until death.

I can see how that ends well.

[bobbiemcgee]

Alarming stats from the Black Snipe:

http://www.cnsnews.com/commentary/walter-e-williams/true-black-tragedy-illegitimacy-rate-nearly-75

[NY44]

Ok, Americans have a 2nd Amendment right to defend our property and lives against a tyrannical gov't and non governmental threats. That said, those who do are likely to be charged with treason or potentially a crime so as always it is wise to carefully pick your fights.

We really live in a nutty place if people no longer believe in the right of defense against threats to life and property.

Are police not a part of government? If you were black, would you not at all be worried about protecting your life against police? Philando Castile was exercising his 2nd amendment right and was killed by police. It's not an extreme assumption to think the presence of his firearm had something to do with his death.

I've said this before on this board. The second amendment is viewed differently depending on who is exercising it. There have been instances of whites walking into Chipotles with assault rifles to exercise their right; then, there are stories of black men and children being killed on the suspicion of a firearm.

I highlighted the quote of the Dallas Police Chief above, he also said something needs to be changed about the second amendment. The principle sounds great in Congress and the eighteenth century, but it is police who have to deal with it in the real world.

[xubrew]

I do appreciate your history, but many people feel (and polling reflects it) that race relations are worse now than in any point in their lives. How do we explain that? I watched Ferguson burn. I watched Baltimore Burn. I just watched the Dallas shootings. This is not a good trajectory to be going on. It is fine and nice to say "We are crazy and have always been crazy, but this stuff hasn't been happening and now it is. For the record, I blame Republicans who like to cut taxes.

I have no doubt that's how many people feel, and although I haven't seen the actual polling, I would expect it to indicate exactly what you say it does.

But, that's partially my point. People FEEL that it is worse now than ever before, but in reality I don't think it is. Maybe it's because we quickly forget things that we want to forget as soon as soon as it is convenient for us to do so. Or, if you were growing up in the 1990s and weren't all the way grown up yet, your perception of how bad it really was may be different because the impact wasn't as direct. As I said, cop killings (meaning cops that are killed on duty) are less than half of what they were in the 1970s.

[OH.X.MI]

I have no doubt that's how many people feel, and although I haven't seen the actual polling, I would expect it to indicate exactly what you say it does.

But, that's partially my point. People FEEL that it is worse now than ever before, but in reality I don't think it is. Maybe it's because we quickly forget things that we want to forget as soon as soon as it is convenient for us to do so. Or, if you were growing up in the 1990s and weren't all the way grown up yet, your perception of how bad it really was may be different because the impact wasn't as direct. As I said, cop killings (meaning cops that are killed on duty) are less than half of what they were in the 1970s.

Absolutely. People's perceptions are not facts. Not trivializing anything that's happened recently, but in 1967 my grandparents moved out of Detroit to a northern suburb. The reason? A riot that resulted in the death of 43 people (4 of whom were law enforcement), 1,189 injuries, over 7,200 arrest, and total property damage estimated at about $32 million.

Things are not great now, but they have been much much worse.

[Strange Brew]

Are police not a part of government? If you were black, would you not at all be worried about protecting your life against police? Philando Castile was exercising his 2nd amendment right and was killed by police. It's not an extreme assumption to think the presence of his firearm had something to do with his death.

I've said this before on this board. The second amendment is viewed differently depending on who is exercising it. There have been instances of whites walking into Chipotles with assault rifles to exercise their right; then, there are stories of black men and children being killed on the suspicion of a firearm.

I highlighted the quote of the Dallas Police Chief above, he also said something needs to be changed about the second amendment. The principle sounds great in Congress and the eighteenth century, but it is police who have to deal with it in the real world.

Yes, police are part of the gov't. I can't tell you how I'd feel if I were black as I'm not however from what I've read (no snark, thanks for making me read more about it) the Castile case appears like an awful situation that may lead to a police officer facing manslaughter charges. Many mistakes appear to have been made. According to early reports the officer may have pulled him over without cause (I emphasize early reports) for a broken taillight when scanner reports show the officer initiated contact because Castile loosely matched the description of an armed robbery suspect. This would put the cop in a overly defensive stance when approaching the vehicle. Castile is reported to have told the officer he had a gun and the gun was in his lap. The officer then told him not to move and Castile went for his back pocket while telling the cop he was reaching for ID. The officer, already on edge thinking this is a robbery suspect fired multiple times ending Mr. Castile's life. In this case the firearm may have contributed to his death in that the cop was already on edge leading him to not tolerate any deviations from his orders.

All that said, I'm not sure this type of situation qualifies as a situation that overrides the argument that the 2nd provides a defense against tyranny. Frankly, that's the last reason for the 2nd.

I don't know about your 2nd paragraph. I had no problem with the black individual sporting an AR at a Tea Party rally a couple of years ago, even though CNN or MSNBC (can't remember which) had a selectively edited meltdown over it. I'd be much more concerned about a skinhead brandishing a gun than someone just walking down the street. The point? It's not skin color sometimes it's attitude and how you present yourself that matters.

As to your third paragraph. Not sure what the quote had to do with guns but I agree with the Chief in that we expect too much from the police including protecting our homes from intruders. On a related note, my neighbor is a cop and recommends everyone owns a weapon for personal protection and provides training to anyone who asks.

[NY44]

Yes, police are part of the gov't. I can't tell you how I'd feel if I were black as I'm not however from what I've read (no snark, thanks for making me read more about it) the Castile case appears like an awful situation that may lead to a police officer facing manslaughter charges. Many mistakes appear to have been made. According to early reports the officer may have pulled him over without cause (I emphasize early reports) for a broken taillight when scanner reports show the officer initiated contact because Castile loosely matched the description of an armed robbery suspect. This would put the cop in a overly defensive stance when approaching the vehicle. Castile is reported to have told the officer he had a gun and the gun was in his lap. The officer then told him not to move and Castile went for his back pocket while telling the cop he was reaching for ID. The officer, already on edge thinking this is a robbery suspect fired multiple times ending Mr. Castile's life. In this case the firearm may have contributed to his death in that the cop was already on edge leading him to not tolerate any deviations from his orders.

I've read the same and it's eerily similar to the Michael Brown case in that regard. I'm no policing expert and personally hate how people claim to know the first thing about it in these times (Especially those upset about the robot used to take out the Dallas shooter). However, from what I've read, the proper approach is to ask an armed person to step out of the vehicle and disarm them. I hope this gets to a fair trial where this can be properly evaluated.


All that said, I'm not sure this type of situation qualifies as a situation that overrides the argument that the 2nd provides a defense against tyranny. Frankly, that's the last reason for the 2nd.

I don't know about your 2nd paragraph. I had no problem with the black individual sporting an AR at a Tea Party rally a couple of years ago, even though CNN or MSNBC (can't remember which) had a selectively edited meltdown over it. I'd be much more concerned about a skinhead brandishing a gun than someone just walking down the street. The point? It's not skin color sometimes it's attitude and how you present yourself that matters.

I think this is a personal statement? There are quite a few examples of people not sharing the same train of thought. Tamir Rice and John Crawford III come to mind.


As to your third paragraph. Not sure what the quote had to do with guns but I agree with the Chief in that we expect too much from the police including protecting our homes from intruders. On a related note, my neighbor is a cop and recommends everyone owns a weapon for personal protection and provides training to anyone who asks.

This references to other parts of his speech. Mainly the below few lines:


"We're trying as best we can as a law enforcement community to make it work so that citizens can express their 2nd Amendment rights, but it’s increasingly challenging when people have AR-15s slung over their shoulder and they’re in a crowd. We don’t know who the good guy is versus the bad guy when everyone starts shooting."

But Brown called policing with open carry “difficult at best.”

He called on lawmakers to do “something on guns,” though he emphasized that as a police chief, he didn’t want to “get in that debate and get swallowed up by both sides who are entrenched in their positions – I want no part of that.”

He said lawmakers need to do their job. “We’re doing ours,” Brown said. “We're putting our lives on the line. The other aspects of government need to step up and help us.”

Dallas police chief: Open carry makes things confusing during mass shootings - LA Times (http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-dallas-chief-20160711-snap-story.html)

To plainly disagree with you, the Chief never made mention of protecting people's homes as part of making their jobs too hard. His main emphasis was on the mental health problem. Many republican politicians have claimed that guns aren't the problem, it's mental health. At the same time, they are against any gun screening before purchase, and would never support more public funding for health services. Neither one of those will fix the entire problem, but you can't tell me it wouldn't make a difference.

[ArizonaXUGrad]

Can someone provide a link that says the gun was in Castille's lap? I haven't read that before. I only read that the officer requested his ID and registration and that he reached in his pocket for them and was shot in the arm and side.

The biggest things that has me attentive and curious about this case, I would like to know if his taillight was actually out and I am curious to see what the NRA does. Here we have what is basically a law abiding citizen that we know of so far, has a gun and a valid permit, who was shot by the police during a stop that may/may not have been legal. I haven't read anything that shows any kind of response from them.

[Juice]

Can someone provide a link that says the gun was in Castille's lap? I haven't read that before. I only read that the officer requested his ID and registration and that he reached in his pocket for them and was shot in the arm and side.

The biggest things that has me attentive and curious about this case, I would like to know if his taillight was actually out and I am curious to see what the NRA does. Here we have what is basically a law abiding citizen that we know of so far, has a gun and a valid permit, who was shot by the police during a stop that may/may not have been legal. I haven't read anything that shows any kind of response from them.

If you have a valid CCW permit, chances are you have a clean record or very low level misdemeanors. Everything I've read that at most he had some traffic violations.

There are rumors that the Black Panthers plan to carry firearms outside the RNC Convention in Cleveland. I'll be curious to see if the NRA supports these guys right to carry as much as their usual clientele.

[xavierj]

If you have a valid CCW permit, chances are you have a clean record or very low level misdemeanors. Everything I've read that at most he had some traffic violations.

There are rumors that the Black Panthers plan to carry firearms outside the RNC Convention in Cleveland. I'll be curious to see if the NRA supports these guys right to carry as much as their usual clientele.

I am sure they will and it wont be a problem unless they start shooting prople. People with concealed carry permits are not a problem in this country. Most of the time, people who get guns illegally, are the problem.

[bigdiggins]

Per Charles Barkley- "Black People are Crooks. Never get mad when black people kill each other."

[/URL]

On my edit screen it shows the link to the NY Daily News article, but not in the post. Don't know how to fix it.

[url]http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/basketball/charles-barkley-reason-racial-stereotypes-article-1.2709522 (http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/basketball/charles-barkley-reason-racial-stereotypes-article-1.2709522)

Not sure how I fixed it, but it seems to be here now.

[xubrew]

Black People are Crooks. Never get mad when black people kill each other.

[/URL]

On my edit screen it shows the link to the NY Daily News article, but not in the post. Don't know how to fix it.

[url]http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/basketball/charles-barkley-reason-racial-stereotypes-article-1.2709522 (http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/basketball/charles-barkley-reason-racial-stereotypes-article-1.2709522)

Not sure how I fixed it, but it seems to be here now.

You may want to make it a little more obvious that you're quoting Charles Barkley.

[bigdiggins]

Black People are Crooks. Never get mad when black people kill each other.

[/URL]

On my edit screen it shows the link to the NY Daily News article, but not in the post. Don't know how to fix it.

[url]http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/basketball/charles-barkley-reason-racial-stereotypes-article-1.2709522 (http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/basketball/charles-barkley-reason-racial-stereotypes-article-1.2709522)

Not sure how I fixed it, but it seems to be here now.

He again echoed his sentiment on black-on-black crime, “Why don’t black people get mad when we kill each other?” Barkley said, “I’m not trying to deflect or place blame, that’s just a fact. We don’t have nearly outrage that we do when a white cop kills somebody. I been black my whole life, most black people I know are killed by other black people.”

[bigdiggins]

You may want to make it a little more obvious that you're quoting Charles Barkley.

Done. Good suggestion

[Juice]

I am sure they will and it wont be a problem unless they start shooting prople. People with concealed carry permits are not a problem in this country. Most of the time, people who get guns illegally, are the problem.

I agree. But Ohio also claims to be an open carry state. So legally they can carry it on their hip or on the shoulder or whatever without a CCW permit. So let's see how that's handled.

[NY44]

He again echoed his sentiment on black-on-black crime, “Why don’t black people get mad when we kill each other?” Barkley said, “I’m not trying to deflect or place blame, that’s just a fact. We don’t have nearly outrage that we do when a white cop kills somebody. I been black my whole life, most black people I know are killed by other black people.”

Charles Barkely should stick to basketball. Police are public servants whose primary task is to protect life, so when they take it, people tend to get pissed.

[waggy]

I agree. But Ohio also claims to be an open carry state. So legally they can carry it on their hip or on the shoulder or whatever without a CCW permit. So let's see how that's handled.


Open carry is a fine law. But I do want to see which fools think they need to open carry in the US. Hahahaha. It's sheer absurdity that anyone of any color thinks they need to open carry anywhere in the US. Sheer politics. Persons that will actually kill someone don't open carry.

[Juice]

Open carry is a fine law. But I do want to see which fools think they need to open carry in the US. Hahahaha. It's sheer absurdity that anyone of any color thinks they need to open carry anywhere in the US. Sheer politics. Persons that will actually kill someone don't open carry.

I think you need to spend more time in the South then.

[waggy]

I think you need to spend more time in the South then.


Oh, so in Ohio it don't matter now?

[Juice]

Oh, so in Ohio it don't matter now?

No, I'm saying people in the South open carry way more than in Ohio.

[xubrew]

Charles Barkely should stick to basketball. Police are public servants whose primary task is to protect life, so when they take it, people tend to get pissed.

I don't think it's at all off base for him to suggest that senseless black on black violence that result in senseless deaths should outrage people as well.

[waggy]

No, I'm saying people in the South open carry way more than in Ohio.


Oh, you must mean the Mexican border.

[bigdiggins]

I don't think it's at all off base for him to suggest that senseless black on black violence that result in senseless deaths should outrage people as well.

Racist

[Juice]

I don't think it's at all off base for him to suggest that senseless black on black violence that result in senseless deaths should outrage people as well.

Absolutely agree with your point but there are plenty of marches/gatherings/whatever being held in Chicago that aren't covered by the media. Is every BLM supporter there? No. Are these type of functions held in every city? No, but they exist and do happen.

[xavierj]

Charles Barkely should stick to basketball. Police are public servants whose primary task is to protect life, so when they take it, people tend to get pissed.

He is right, so there is that. Take Cincinnati for example. Since 2000, over 82% of murders in the city are black people killing other black people. Yet only 42% of the population is black. I dont know, but that seems like a problem that needs to be Addressed. Oh and you can count on one hand how many african americans have been killed by police in the same period. What should people be upset about? It really is not that difficult. Attack the problem.

[xavierj]

I also think people who dont want to solve real problems are the real racisits. If people really care, stop the real killings, educate people and hire qulaified workers. I have 90 employees, 60% are AA, 20% are white and 20% are latino. They all work hard and come to work every day. They all get paid well too. Stop making excuses, stop blaming cops and solve problems.

[Juice]

He is right, so there is that. Take Cincinnati for example. Since 2000, over 82% of murders in the city are black people killing other black people. Yet only 42% of the population is black. I dont know, but that seems like a problem that needs to be Addressed. Oh and you can count on one hand how many african americans have been killed by police in the same period. What should people be upset about? It really is not that difficult. Attack the problem.

Crime committed by any race is obviously problem. But it's easy to look at stats and simply say that black people need to get their shit together. Because often times when they did/do, white people stood in their way. Since you cite Cincinnati, here is an example when black people did try to live and work as community: http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2015/07/lincoln-heights-black-suburb/398303/

[NY44]

I don't think it's at all off base for him to suggest that senseless black on black violence that result in senseless deaths should outrage people as well.

Yeah, but that's not the point he's trying to make, is it? He's making a comparison between their reaction to police shootings and their reactions to 'black on black crime'.


He is right, so there is that. Take Cincinnati for example. Since 2000, over 82% of murders in the city are black people killing other black people. Yet only 42% of the population is black. I dont know, but that seems like a problem that needs to be Addressed. Oh and you can count on one hand how many african americans have been killed by police in the same period. What should people be upset about? It really is not that difficult. Attack the problem.

I also think people who dont want to solve real problems are the real racisits. If people really care, stop the real killings, educate people and hire qulaified workers. I have 90 employees, 60% are AA, 20% are white and 20% are latino. They all work hard and come to work every day. They all get paid well too. Stop making excuses, stop blaming cops and solve problems.

Your bolded portion is just plainly not true. This is an argument that comes around every time police killings are in the news cycle. Of course it is a problem and of course they are upset about every black murder. There have beens summits, vigils, and action committees formed to try and fight 'black on black crime'. However, there is a clear difference, is there not? Does Chuck really expect people to just protest 'murder'? That would never happen, but they will protest police because they are all part of the government and therefore sweeping change is more realistic via protest.

And part of Black Lives Matter is not focused on police killings. I took a quick read on it, and below is their response to the misconception that black people care less about 'black on black crime'.


The idea that black-on-black crime is not a significant political conversation among black people is patently false. In Chicago, long maligned for its high rates of intraracial murder, members of the community created the Violence Interrupters to disrupt violent altercations before they escalate. However, those who insist on talking about black-on-black crime frequently fail to acknowledge that most crime is intraracial. Ninety-three percent of black murder victims are killed by other black people. Eighty-four percent of white murder victims are killed by other white people. The continued focus on black-on-black crime is a diversionary tactic, whose goal is to suggest that black people don’t have the right to be outraged about police violence in vulnerable black communities, because those communities have a crime problem. The Black Lives Matter movement acknowledges the crime problem, but it refuses to locate that crime problem as a problem of black pathology. Black people are not inherently more violent or more prone to crime than other groups. But black people are disproportionately poorer, more likely to be targeted by police and arrested, and more likely to attend poor or failing schools. All of these social indicators place one at greater risk for being either a victim or a perpetrator of violent crime. To reduce violent crime, we must fight to change systems, rather than demonizing people.

11 Major Misconceptions About the Black Lives Matter Movement - BLM (http://blacklivesmatter.com/11-major-misconceptions-about-the-black-lives-matter-movement/)

[bigdiggins]

Yeah, but that's not the point he's trying to make, is it? He's making a comparison between their reaction to police shootings and their reactions to 'black on black crime'.




Your bolded portion is just plainly not true. This is an argument that comes around every time police killings are in the news cycle. Of course it is a problem and of course they are upset about every black murder. There have beens summits, vigils, and action committees formed to try and fight 'black on black crime'. However, there is a clear difference, is there not? Does Chuck really expect people to just protest 'murder'? That would never happen, but they will protest police because they are all part of the government and therefore sweeping change is more realistic via protest.

And part of Black Lives Matter is not focused on police killings. I took a quick read on it, and below is their response to the misconception that black people care less about 'black on black crime'.

Great, 84% percent of white people are killed by other white people. You don't however see whites protest everytime some meth mouth redneck gets shot by police.

[NY44]

Great, 84% percent of white people are killed by other white people. You don't however see whites protest everytime some meth mouth redneck gets shot by police.

Aren’t more white people than black people killed by police? Yes, but no. - Washington Post (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2016/07/11/arent-more-white-people-than-black-people-killed-by-police-yes-but-no/?utm_term=.e9a50a027b01)


In 2015, The Washington Post launched a real-time database to track fatal police shootings, and the project continues this year. As of Sunday, 1,502 people have been shot and killed by on-duty police officers since Jan. 1, 2015. Of them, 732 were white, and 381 were black (and 382 were of another or unknown race).

But as data scientists and policing experts often note, comparing how many or how often white people are killed by police to how many or how often black people are killed by the police is statistically dubious unless you first adjust for population.

According to the most recent census data, there are nearly 160 million more white people in America than there are black people. White people make up roughly 62 percent of the U.S. population but only about 49 percent of those who are killed by police officers. African Americans, however, account for 24 percent of those fatally shot and killed by the police despite being just 13 percent of the U.S. population. As The Post noted in a new analysis published last week, that means black Americans are 2.5 times as likely as white Americans to be shot and killed by police officers.

U.S. police officers have shot and killed the exact same number of unarmed white people as they have unarmed black people: 50 each. But because the white population is approximately five times larger than the black population, that means unarmed black Americans were five times as likely as unarmed white Americans to be shot and killed by a police officer.

[nuts4xu]

I love black people, and want everyone with brown, tan, black, beige, white or yellow skin to stop killing each other.

The great prophet Jackie Moon said it best.....

http://s2.quickmeme.com/img/e2/e234071f52f2800b781a24b9b90f1d97bbf5264083d7b9b7cb 496f8c9f902fe3.jpg

[bigdiggins]

Aren’t more white people than black people killed by police? Yes, but no. - Washington Post (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2016/07/11/arent-more-white-people-than-black-people-killed-by-police-yes-but-no/?utm_term=.e9a50a027b01)

"DOJ statistics show that between 1980 and 2008, black people committed 52% of homicides.

In 2013, black criminals committed 38% of the murders. Whites accounted for just 31 percent"

If you commit more crime you are more likely to encounter police and therefore the chances of being shot by police also increase.

[NY44]

"DOJ statistics show that between 1980 and 2008, black people committed 52% of homicides.

In 2013, black criminals committed 38% of the murders. Whites accounted for just 31 percent"

If you commit more crime you are more likely to encounter police and therefore the chances of being shot by police also increase.

Your argument is more or less justifying stereotyping, and your use of "you" to reference an entire race of people is troubling. Any person of a race, should not be held responsible for the actions of other people of the same race.

[OH.X.MI]

Your argument is more or less justifying stereotyping, and your use of "you" to reference an entire race of people is troubling. Any person of a race, should not be held responsible for the actions of other people of the same race.

Statistical facts are not "stereotypes." We can get into lots of underlying arguments over why African American men commit more crimes than other groups; that's an important argument that should be addressed. But the fact is they do. This correlates to more interaction with police. There's a reason you see more cops in Price Hill than Indian Hill. Hint - it's because more crime is committed in Price Hill.

[GoMuskies]

I bet there are an enormous amount of drug "crimes" being committed in Indian Hill.

[ammtd34]

This argument seems to make sense initially. But John Crawford wasn't committing a violent crime. Nor were Philando Castile, Tamir Rice, or Eric Garner. I think the Black Lives Matter movement is to point out that black people are killed while not committing violent crimes.

[OH.X.MI]

I bet there are an enormous amount of drug "crimes" being committed in Indian Hill.

I should have predicated with violent crime. Are Indian Hill high school students smoking weed? Sure. Is there a lot of murder in Indian Hill, even over said weed smoking? I'd imagine not. Again, I'm not trying to understate the cause of this disparity. That's something social scientist can address, I'm not qualified to. And I don't think many CPD officers are that concerned with the socioeconomic history of racial crime disparity either. They are interested in stopping crime - that leads to a greater presence in areas where (violent) crime is committed.

[OH.X.MI]

This argument seems to make sense initially. But John Crawford wasn't committing a violent crime. Nor were Philando Castile, Tamir Rice, or Eric Garner. I think the Black Lives Matter movement is to point out that black people are killed while not committing violent crimes.

Yes that's totally fair. I was just speaking generally as to why African American males have higher rates of police encounters. I'm not saying it's right, just that it's not always caused by outright discrimination.

[NY44]

Yes that's totally fair. I was just speaking generally as to why African American males have higher rates of police encounters. I'm not saying it's right, just that it's not always caused by outright discrimination.

Follow the chain up. I never denied there is a reason for higher rates of police encounters, but to say that fact makes outrage/protests over police shooting less legitimate is wrong.

[bigdiggins]

Follow the chain up. I never denied there is a reason for higher rates of police encounters, but to say that fact makes outrage/protests over police shooting less legitimate is wrong.

I'm not saying their outrage is not legitimate. However, their movement is not Black Lives Matter when Police End Said Lives. The perception they portray, and perhaps it is due to lack of media coverage of their full spectrum of activites, is that they do not have a passion for all the black lives that are ended through violent crime despite the disparately large number, and are only concerned with those due to police encounters.

[NY44]

I'm not saying their outrage is not legitimate. However, their movement is not Black Lives Matter when Police End Said Lives. The perception they portray, and perhaps it is due to lack of media coverage of their full spectrum of activites, is that they do not have a passion for all the black lives that are ended through violent crime despite the disparately large number, and are only concerned with those due to police encounters.

There's an inherently different and less publicized reaction to police shootings than random citizen on citizen killings. You can't honestly expect them to protest random murder - suspects are arrested and tried in those scenarios. That's not always the case in police shootings and that's kind of the point of the movement.

[GoMuskies]

Random citizen killings almost always ARE crimes, though. As should be plainly obvious, it's typically a lot more complicated when the police shoot.

[bigdiggins]

There's an inherently different and less publicized reaction to police shootings than random citizen on citizen killings. You can't honestly expect them to protest random murder - suspects are arrested and tried in those scenarios. That's not always the case in police shootings and that's kind of the point of the movement.

I do not expect them to protest random murder. They could better show that they are involved in efforts to identify and fix the root causes.

Again the perception created is that they (the Black Lives Matter movement) are upset about the handful of lives ended by police, but not the many many more taken through violence in the black community. This calls into question their true motives.

[X-band '01]

Police by definition have to be held to a higher standard. Who can you trust if you can't trust the cops?

A lot also lies in whether you think it's more important to emphasize a particular movement (Black Lives, Blue Lives, All Lives, etc.) in a positive light or whether it's more important to demonize any of the above movement. We've also seen the hashtag #AllLivesDidntMatter pop up recently highlighting black killings in a very incendiary light.

Another question worthy to ask is how much of a role the media has in terms of fanning the flames. No one is going to say it openly, but there is an unspoken wish from media HQ that Cleveland becomes a shitshow next week. It's pathetic.

[NY44]

Random citizen killings almost always ARE crimes, though. As should be plainly obvious, it's typically a lot more complicated when the police shoot.

I completely agree, but the lack of officer convictions could suggest that the complexity is not genuinely investigated and/or litigated.

[NY44]

I do not expect them to protest random murder. They could better show that they are involved in efforts to identify and fix the root causes.

Again the perception created is that they (the Black Lives Matter movement) are upset about the handful of lives ended by police, but not the many many more taken through violence in the black community. This calls into question their true motives.

I guess I just don't know what people expect from them? Black people are dying at the hands of police and other citizens, and you have someone like Chuck using his stage to critique what they get upset about. It's really sad.

[X-band '01]

I completely agree, but the lack of officer convictions could suggest that the complexity is not genuinely investigated and/or litigated.

In part, it's evidenced in the Freddie Gray case where no officer yet has been convicted of any charge. It could have been worse if we saw a case where white officers were being acquitted and black officers were being convicted.

And there's still the Sam DuBose case that hasn't gone to trial locally. According to the Hamilton County website, the jury trial isn't scheduled to begin until October 24 this year.

[Juice]

In part, it's evidenced in the Freddie Gray case where no officer yet has been convicted of any charge. It could have been worse if we saw a case where white officers were being acquitted and black officers were being convicted.

And there's still the Sam DuBose case that hasn't gone to trial locally. According to the Hamilton County website, the jury trial isn't scheduled to begin until October 24 this year.

That's going to be a shit show for the week or two around here. So excited for that.

[GoMuskies]

Police by definition have to be held to a higher standard.


In terms of firing them from their jobs? Absolutely. In terms of putting them in prison? Hell fucking no.

[NY44]

In terms of firing them from their jobs? Absolutely. In terms of putting them in prison? Hell fucking no.

I think '01 meant they're held to a higher standard in public opinion.

[xavierj]

If we had a racial police problem, wouldn't we have a hell of a lot more deaths? Its always a money grab and those getting killed, are usually criminals. Is it really that hard to understand? Law abiding white, black, latin, European, asian, and on and on, are not getting shot and killed by those who are out protecting our world. Mistakes will happen, but you do not get shot by complying 99.999% of the time and it may be higher than that.

[Masterofreality]

The following was shared to me by "The Chief" - Dwayne Wilson, Xavier Graduate, Former Xavier Basketball player and present Black Cincinnati Policeman. Please note:
2073

[Juice]

If we had a racial police problem, wouldn't we have a hell of a lot more deaths? Its always a money grab and those getting killed, are usually criminals. Is it really that hard to understand? Law abiding white, black, latin, European, asian, and on and on, are not getting shot and killed by those who are out protecting our world. Mistakes will happen, but you do not get shot by complying 99.999% of the time and it may be higher than that.

Philando Castile?

You're basically saying you're ok with the use of deadly force by police whether that person actually threatens that officer or a third party with deadly force so long as they didn't "comply" with the officer. It doesn't matter to you whether that officer was actually justified in asking a person to do something?

Because the court systems and motion to suppresses, and the appellate courts, and the Supreme Court never ever rule against police because they're always right?

[Juice]

The following was shared to me by "The Chief" - Dwayne Wilson, Xavier Graduate, Former Xavier Basketball player and present Black Cincinnati Policeman. Please note:
2073

Mental health issues are a good point. People with mental health issues obviously don't advertise that they have these problems with police. All police know if that they're trying to deal with a person who won't stop or listen. For example: http://www.cincinnati.com/story/news/2016/07/13/-75-kill-me-man-pleads-guilty/87034040/

[xavierj]

Philando Castile?

You're basically saying you're ok with the use of deadly force by police whether that person actually threatens that officer or a third party with deadly force so long as they didn't "comply" with the officer. It doesn't matter to you whether that officer was actually justified in asking a person to do something?

Because the court systems and motion to suppresses, and the appellate courts, and the Supreme Court never ever rule against police because they're always right?

Nope. I said mistakes will happen, but its rare. You have men and women that put their life on the line every day and help protect 323 million people. kind of shocking, death by police is this low, considering the amount of contact they have, in crazy situations, in this country every single day.

[xavierj]

The following was shared to me by "The Chief" - Dwayne Wilson, Xavier Graduate, Former Xavier Basketball player and present Black Cincinnati Policeman. Please note:
2073

Hey no one wants to here that. Get that crap out of here. We have a country to hold hostage.

[NY44]

If we had a racial police problem, wouldn't we have a hell of a lot more deaths? Its always a money grab and those getting killed, are usually criminals. Is it really that hard to understand? Law abiding white, black, latin, European, asian, and on and on, are not getting shot and killed by those who are out protecting our world. Mistakes will happen, but you do not get shot by complying 99.999% of the time and it may be higher than that.

This isn't a movement about a societal problem. No, death by police is not an epidemic. It's an issue of justice. There's no faith that convictions or sometimes even trials will come for any of these officers.

[KC4X]

The following was shared to me by "The Chief" - Dwayne Wilson, Xavier Graduate, Former Xavier Basketball player and present Black Cincinnati Policeman. Please note:
2073

I'm sorry, but that is racist... using the term thug is completely unnecessary and made me want to cry. Yes, of course there are other issues that need to be addressed. But to ignore the FACT that there are policing issues is irresonsible and sad... especially when done by the police. We are very fortunate to live in a city that has much less significant issues. It's not perfect, but we've come a long way since 2001.

People need to open their eyes to other cities, though. The Feds have been investigating Chicago police (again) this year. They released a scathing report earlier this year. My son lives there and witnesses atrocities first-hand. So it offends me GREATLY to read such dismissive remarks. Please read the following article and let me know if you still think we don't have a police problem...

http://chicagoist.com/2016/04/14/9_takeaways_from_the_chicago_police.php

Edit... the report referenced in the link was released by an independent task force called for by the Mayor. The Feds are still investigating, as I understand it.

[Masterofreality]

I'm sorry, but that is racist... using the term thug is completely unnecessary and made me want to cry. Yes, of course there are other issues that need to be addressed. But to ignore the FACT that there are policing issues is irresonsible and sad... especially when done by the police. We are very fortunate to live in a city that has much less significant issues. It's not perfect, but we've come a long way since 2001.

People need to open their eyes to other cities, though. The Feds have been investigating Chicago police (again) this year. They released a scathing report earlier this year. My son lives there and witnesses atrocities first-hand. So it offends me GREATLY to read such dismissive remarks. Please read the following article and let me know if you still think we don't have a police problem...

http://chicagoist.com/2016/04/14/9_takeaways_from_the_chicago_police.php

Edit... the report referenced in the link was released by an independent task force called for by the Mayor. The Feds are still investigating, as I understand it.

Uh, using Chicago example may not have been your best move. You know, home of Barack Obama, Mayor being Rahm Emanuel and run by the Democrats since, errrr, the Dinosaurs? Since Mr. Obama and the Dems love to play the politics of division, maybe he should highlight the issues in his own hometown, like, you know, multiple murders of Blacks by Blacks every week, the inability to get gangs under control, all the while in a place with some of the most restrictive gun laws in the country. Somehow, Barry conveniently never wants to address the whole Chicago problem.

But let's just perpetrate that narrative that Chicago has a "Policiing problem" while ignoring the whole big picture. Naw, no "Thugs" anywhere around Chicago, right? But the ultimate fact is that if there is a "policing problem" it has been fostered and pepetuated by a Democrat administration while the city burns.

[bleedXblue]

Great editorial article this morning in Cincy's bird care liner by Walter Williams. All should read. The democratic agenda is NOT working. Evidenced by most of America's largest cities which have been largely managed the by aforementioned party.

[muskienick]

Uh, using Chicago example may not have been your best move. You know, home of Barack Obama, Mayor being Rahm Emanuel and run by the Democrats since, errrr, the Dinosaurs? Since Mr. Obama and the Dems love to play the politics of division, maybe he should highlight the issues in his own hometown, like, you know, multiple murders of Blacks by Blacks every week, the inability to get gangs under control, all the while in a place with some of the most restrictive gun laws in the country. Somehow, Barry conveniently never wants to address the whole Chicago problem.

But let's just perpetrate that narrative that Chicago has a "Policiing problem" while ignoring the whole big picture. Naw, no "Thugs" anywhere around Chicago, right? But the ultimate fact is that if there is a "policing problem" it has been fostered and pepetuated by a Democrat administration while the city burns.

MOR, you are unaware that Chicago is home to an offspring of KC4X and a grandchild of mine. It just so happens that child/grandchild of ours was beaten by some Chitown cops simply for witnessing a portion of a protest BY OTHERS. There was an arrest made and medical help for injuries suffered in that arrest was denied until the following morning when that arrestee was sent (shackled) to the hospital! That happened less than a week prior to KC4X's posting (above). Hence, you might want to cut some slack for the use of Chicago's PD as a reasonable example to use in this thread, especially since "police" in its title is not specific as to jurisdiction!

[Juice]

Open carry is a fine law. But I do want to see which fools think they need to open carry in the US. Hahahaha. It's sheer absurdity that anyone of any color thinks they need to open carry anywhere in the US. Sheer politics. Persons that will actually kill someone don't open carry.

https://twitter.com/mattdpearce/status/754708273375375360

[Juice]

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/cleveland-police-union-calls-for-open-carry-ban-during-republican-convention/?ftag=CNM-00-10aab7e&linkId=26649393

Cleveland police union calls for open-carry ban during Republican convention

[waggy]

https://twitter.com/mattdpearce/status/754708273375375360

Stupid.

[mohr5150]

There are areas around the convention where a person can carry a gun but is not permitted to have a water gun, a metal-tipped umbrella, or some whole fruits. Yeah, those oranges are flat-out dangerous. Our country is totally screwed up.

[NY44]

Uh, using Chicago example may not have been your best move. You know, home of Barack Obama, Mayor being Rahm Emanuel and run by the Democrats since, errrr, the Dinosaurs? Since Mr. Obama and the Dems love to play the politics of division, maybe he should highlight the issues in his own hometown, like, you know, multiple murders of Blacks by Blacks every week, the inability to get gangs under control, all the while in a place with some of the most restrictive gun laws in the country. Somehow, Barry conveniently never wants to address the whole Chicago problem.

But let's just perpetrate that narrative that Chicago has a "Policiing problem" while ignoring the whole big picture. Naw, no "Thugs" anywhere around Chicago, right? But the ultimate fact is that if there is a "policing problem" it has been fostered and pepetuated by a Democrat administration while the city burns.

The "whole picture" being that Chicago is a half hour drive from Indiana?

[xavierj]

There are areas around the convention where a person can carry a gun but is not permitted to have a water gun, a metal-tipped umbrella, or some whole fruits. Yeah, those oranges are flat-out dangerous. Our country is totally screwed up.

Yet if this was the DNC, no one would be concerned. Wonder why...? Maybe some people just have a level head and others, not so much.

[KC4X]

Uh, using Chicago example may not have been your best move. You know, home of Barack Obama, Mayor being Rahm Emanuel and run by the Democrats since, errrr, the Dinosaurs? Since Mr. Obama and the Dems love to play the politics of division, maybe he should highlight the issues in his own hometown, like, you know, multiple murders of Blacks by Blacks every week, the inability to get gangs under control, all the while in a place with some of the most restrictive gun laws in the country. Somehow, Barry conveniently never wants to address the whole Chicago problem.

But let's just perpetrate that narrative that Chicago has a "Policiing problem" while ignoring the whole big picture. Naw, no "Thugs" anywhere around Chicago, right? But the ultimate fact is that if there is a "policing problem" it has been fostered and pepetuated by a Democrat administration while the city burns.


MOR, you are unaware that Chicago is home to an offspring of KC4X and a grandchild of mine. It just so happens that child/grandchild of ours was beaten by some Chitown cops simply for witnessing a portion of a protest BY OTHERS. There was an arrest made and medical help for injuries suffered in that arrest was denied until the following morning when that arrestee was sent (shackled) to the hospital! That happened less than a week prior to KC4X's posting (above). Hence, you might want to cut some slack for the use of Chicago's PD as a reasonable example to use in this thread, especially since "police" in its title is not specific as to jurisdiction!

Thanks, Dad.

My point is that people seem to refuse to acknowledge the issues if they don't directly witness them. Trust me, I hope you never do, MOR! The egregiousness may never hit home for some, though.

It's more than a rogue cop here and there in some cities. Of course there are crime issues in Chicago... that doesn't give the police the right to abuse their power!!! My college grad is small and the initial officer that attacked was over 6' tall and strong, then at least 2 others joined in! Even if there was wrong-doing (WHICH THERE WASN'T), they did NOT have to use such force! There are other things that happened that I won't get into because I'm afraid for my child's safety! How is this OK and not a police problem??? It's NOT an isolated incident in Chicago. They don't limit their corruption and brutality to criminals, but, even if they did, it would still be wrong. I bet Mr. Wilson would agree with that, too.

And, by the way since you brought it up, there have been many protests in Chicago calling for Raum to step down, etc. Nobody claimed the administration isn't contributing to the issues. That is completely beside the point. Police issues exist. Period. That needs to be addressed just as crime, education, lack of jobs and opportunities in poor areas, etc. Crime issues don't excuse bad police behavior. It's important to acknowledge the issue.

I respect the police as a whole, as does my child. But we need to speak out and STRONGLY admonish officers and hold them accountable when they abuse their power. If officers have to resort to police brutality, they are in the wrong line of work.

[Snipe]

If I was black and I saw black men shot all the time on TV, I would be pissed too. The statistics don't get to most people. I understand the anger.

Are some cops corrupt? Sure. So are some Priests, bankers, lawyers, and gulp...politicians. It would be great to get rid of corrupt people in every walk of life.

The Black Community has many problems. Being systematically hunted down by police isn't one of them. It is a myth.