Does Butler have enough talent to compete in the Big East

[Muskie]

Link (http://www.indystar.com/story/sports/2016/02/15/does-butler-have-enough-talent-compete-big-east/79899976/)

One of the narratives of Butler basketball skeptics — including many fans — is that the Bulldogs lack the talent to compete in the Big East. Maybe they will have adequate personnel someday, according to that theory, but not now.
Perhaps despair is understandable, given Butler’s descent from No. 9 in national rankings to No. 7 in the conference. Upon closer examination, dismissal of Butler as outmanned would be a copout for a team that still has time to meet expectations.

[GoMuskies]

If they beat Creighton at home tonight, they'll be 7-7. So they're clearly competing just fine in the Big East. If you mean competing for the title? Then no.

[mistabeecee41]

Kelan Martin is one of the young stars in the conference. Roosevelt Jones has his limitations but is also a stud. Beyond those two - they're good, but not talented enough for compete for a top 3 spot.

Tyler Lewis has been a flat out disappointment. Everybody had a hard-on for the guy (maybe I'm still bitter from him tearing us apart in the tourney a few years back) but he's not a good enough PG. Look at the top teams in the conference. Kris Dunn, Arch, Sumner, Watson. Play making point guards get you over the hump. They don't have any.

Kellen Dunham is a good shooter, but he is never going to the be the 3rd best player on a Big East championship contributing team.

[RealDeal]

Yes.

[xubrew]

If they beat Creighton at home tonight, they'll be 7-7. So they're clearly competing just fine in the Big East. If you mean competing for the title? Then no.

I know. They're competing just fine. They're still being projected to make the field by most of the people who do that kind of thing, and if they hold serve the rest of the way then they probably will.

The one thing that's been constant about Butler is that over the past fifteen years people have never stopped predicting their demise.

They lose on a buzzer beater to Florida in the 2000 season. They're done.

They earn a 10 seed and make the round of 32 in 2001, but they did it with Collier's players. And the coach leaves. They're done.

They lose two of their last three games in 2002 after losing two starters to injury. They end up missing the field. Everyone says it was their only chance to really do something, and the two injuries ruined it for them. They're done.

They make the 2003 Sweet Sixteen.

Then, they legitimately did suck, and everyone says they'll never be good again and are picked to finish in the bottom half of the Horizon League in 2007. But, they get into the rankings and make the Sweet Sixteen again, and come closer to beating Florida than anyone else managed to in either the 2006 or 2007 tournament. But, their coach leaves, and everyone says their done.

The coach they hire is actually mistaken for a player in street clothes. They get back to the NCAA Tournament and make the round of 32 in 2008. But, they did it with Lickliters players, so they're done.

After all that, which I think included a stretch where they won more NCAA Tournament games than all but fifteen other teams in a ten year period, they then go to back to back NCAA Championship games. And, what do people say after they did all of that?? They're done.

Brad Stevens leaves, and they're done. Yet, they finished in the top 25, and second in the Big East, and lost in overtime in the round of 32.

And, they year after they do that, what are people saying?? They're done.

Seriously, when the hell are people going to wake up?? Butler fans who bet on sports must be the wealthiest people in the country. People keep betting against them, and Butler keeps winning.

They will be able to compete in the Big East, crack the rankings, make the tournament, and advance in the tournament. I don't understand how any reasonable person could possibly think otherwise. If this is a "down year" for Butler, then it's a damn good down year to be having. They can still make the dance. If you can make the dance during a down year then your program is pretty damn good.

[Muskie]

I know. They're competing just fine. They're still being projected to make the field by most of the people who do that kind of thing, and if they hold serve the rest of the way then they probably will.

The one thing that's been constant about Butler is that over the past fifteen years people have never stopped predicting their demise.

They lose on a buzzer beater to Florida in the 2000 season. They're done.

They earn a 10 seed and make the round of 32 in 2001, but they did it with Collier's players. And the coach leaves. They're done.

They lose two of their last three games in 2002 after losing two starters to injury. They end up missing the field. Everyone says it was their only chance to really do something, and the two injuries ruined it for them. They're done.

They make the 2003 Sweet Sixteen.

Then, they legitimately did suck, and everyone says they'll never be good again and are picked to finish in the bottom half of the Horizon League in 2007. But, they get into the rankings and make the Sweet Sixteen again, and come closer to beating Florida than anyone else managed to in either the 2006 or 2007 tournament. But, their coach leaves, and everyone says their done.

The coach they hire is actually mistaken for a player in street clothes. They get back to the NCAA Tournament and make the round of 32 in 2008. But, they did it with Lickliters players, so they're done.

After all that, which I think included a stretch where they won more NCAA Tournament games than all but fifteen other teams in a ten year period, they then go to back to back NCAA Championship games. And, what do people say after they did all of that?? They're done.

Brad Stevens leaves, and they're done. Yet, they finished in the top 25, and second in the Big East, and lost in overtime in the round of 32.

And, they year after they do that, what are people saying?? They're done.

Seriously, when the hell are people going to wake up?? Butler fans who bet on sports must be the wealthiest people in the country. People keep betting against them, and Butler keeps winning.

They will be able to compete in the Big East, crack the rankings, make the tournament, and advance in the tournament. I don't understand how any reasonable person could possibly think otherwise. If this is a "down year" for Butler, then it's a damn good down year to be having. They can still make the dance. If you can make the dance during a down year then your program is pretty damn good.

Agree. It's just weird to see the Star doing it. They are normally very Pro-Butler.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[scoscox]

Sounds a lot like Xavier. Who cares though, let them worry about it. Personally, I don't think they do, but they have consistently massively overachieved with regard to the talent that they have.

[ArizonaXUGrad]

My 2cents on them, Holtmann can flat out coach. I think Butler will know what they have in year 4 like any other college coach. Let him get his guys in there and run his system. That said, they don't have the bench or a good enough PG right now to compete for a top spot. Trey Lewis might be it, but he seems to need some great guys around him to excel. Remember, NC State had two NBA guys on that roster when they beat us.

[waggy]

Lewis ran by Semaj like he was Jimmie Binnie.

[zanesxu]

If they beat Creighton at home tonight, they'll be 7-7. So they're clearly competing just fine in the Big East. If you mean competing for the title? Then no.

Must have been over-reaction Monday... We were 7-7 in the BE on February 16, 2015 and 7-5 on February 16, 2014; and, you can argue Butler has as much or more talent now than that 2014 X team did. The talent cycle in college athletics is short... get them 6-12 more months with Holtmann and they will be top 1/3rd in BE.

[D-West & PO-Z]

What happened to Tyler Lewis? He was a McDonald's All American? I said in the Butler thread I thought he was supposed to be a big time player for them and someone remarked no against BE PGs and I thought, yeah I guess, but I didnt know then he was a Mickey D's AA. Guess he just didnt progress?

[Muskied]

They had better players recruited 2 years ago but lost a few with the coaching transition. Nolan Berry, Andrew Smeathers, Rene Castro and Elijah Brown all left. They tried to repair it with Etherington, Tyler Lewis and Jordan Gathers, but it wasn't enough. Apparently, they have better athletes coming in next year which should help them. They need more athletic guards and it showed Saturday...even if they had 1-2 it would help relieve pressure off Dunham and Jones. I expect them to bounce back just like they always do- particularly because they have a really good coach- Don't sleep on them. That said...We own the hell out of them.

[Masterofreality]

What happened to Tyler Lewis? He was a McDonald's All American? I said in the Butler thread I thought he was supposed to be a big time player for them and someone remarked no against BE PGs and I thought, yeah I guess, but I didnt know then he was a Mickey D's AA. Guess he just didnt progress?

Kelan Martin in the starting lineup makes them more effective. Lewis has regressed since he was at NC State.

[scoscox]

Some guys get undeserved hype. Tyler Lewis is one.

[Smails]

They tried to repair it with Etherington, Tyler Lewis and Jordan Gathers, but it wasn't enough. .

Boy we dodged a bullet with Etherington...total non-factor at the high D1 level

[More Cowbell]

What Butler lacks in talent, they make up for with class.

[bleedXblue]

I see Butler being just fine in a few years. Clearly, the coaching change has hurt them. They still compete well and with a run at the end of the year can salvage the season.

I remember several Xhoops posters writing off Creighton b/c Doug M graduated and his dad was still at the helm........and we all are seeing what a few transfers and some good recruiting can do in a short period of time.

[Milhouse]

I see Butler being just fine in a few years. Clearly, the coaching change has hurt them. They still compete well and with a run at the end of the year can salvage the season.

I remember several Xhoops posters writing off Creighton b/c Doug M graduated and his dad was still at the helm........and we all are seeing what a few transfers and some good recruiting can do in a short period of time.

it can make the NIT?

Still not that impressed with Creighton. Had a once in a generation player- likely the greatest they will ever have...and never made the second weekend.

[D-West & PO-Z]

it can make the NIT?

Still not that impressed with Creighton. Had a once in a generation player- likely the greatest they will ever have...and never made the second weekend.

Neither did our best player ever.

[XMuskieFTW]

it can make the NIT?

Still not that impressed with Creighton. Had a once in a generation player- likely the greatest they will ever have...and never made the second weekend.

Creighton has two top 50 recruits already committed for the class of 2017. I think their program will continue to improve and we'll probably see them in the top 25 in a few years.

[Xville]

There are only a few Big East programs that I worry about moving forward, Butler and Creighton aren't them.

The ones I do worry about are Depaul (because they have been Fordham for twenty plus years now), Georgetown (they need a new coach), and St. John's, who are a complete unknown as to what direction they are going.

I believe the other teams in our conference at least have a direction and a sense of what they are trying to accomplish, the above three im not so sure.

[xubrew]

This is my issue with Greg McDermott. He's had some good teams. But, you never got the feeling that the teams were as good as they could have been or should have been, and he has a tendency to start off awesome, and then taper off to where they just flat out suck.

Below is his record from February on..

14-15 - 4-6 and out in the BE quarterfinals

13-14 - 9-5 and out in the Round of 32. This was a very good team. They finished 9-5. That's not bad. The round of 32 isn't bad either, but as good as they were it seems like it should have been better. Remember, this was the year only two Big East teams were inside the bubble.

12-13 - 8-5 and out in the round of 32. Now, they did win the Missouri Valley Tournament, but they dropped games they shouldn't have for as good as they were. Again. Not bad, but for as good as they were they finished 7-4 against MVC teams before going out in the round of 32.

11-12 - 7-3. Won the MVC Tourney. Made the round of 32. This was the one year where I thought they were as good as they should have been.

10-11 - finished 5-5 in the Valley. Out in the semis.

Okay, so three times in five years, he finished above .500 from February on, and he was in the MVC for three of those years.

In his four years at Iowa State, from February on he was 2-9, 3-8, 1-10, and 4-6. He did not win a single conference tournament game. These were teams that were actually good at the start of the year, and were even in the rankings for a couple of years. They'd get off to a good start. Conference play would start and they'd win some big games. Then, February 1 would roll around, and they would be absolutely sucktacular the rest of the way. It was a running joke between myself and several friends. It's February. It's time for McDermott to suck. And, it pretty much held true every year.

His last year at Northern Iowa, they actually made the NCAA Tournament. They had just three losses heading into February and were ranked in the teens. They finished 4-7 and were out in the round of 64. It was actually amazing that they got in. I don't recall a team that didn't play in a major conference that made the tournament after going 4-7 down the stretch.

Until he actually stops sucking in February and March, I'm not going to be convinced that he's that good of a coach. I said this when Creighton hired him, but I wouldn't have even considered him. I still think that it was a mistake, and I'm not expecting Creighton to heat up. Why?? Well, because McDermott is coaching, and it's February. But, they have won their last three, and it is a leap year, so...we'll see.

[Smails]

Boy we dodged a bullet with Etherington...total non-factor at the high D1 level

Well of course he goes for a career high last night...I still think he sucks canal water

[EastCoastXman]

Did you see Etherington's dunk was Sports Center Top Play #8. An incredibly light night in sports last night!

[D-West & PO-Z]

Did you see Etherington's dunk was Sports Center Top Play #8. An incredibly light night in sports last night!

Didnt see the dunk but sports is light until NBA comes back tomorrow.

Besides mens and womens college basketball what was going on last night in sports?

[XUMIOH12]

Didnt see the dunk but sports is light until NBA comes back tomorrow.

Besides mens and womens college basketball what was going on last night in sports?

Hockey, but ESPN and SportsCenter seem to refuse to admit it exists.

[D-West & PO-Z]

Hockey, but ESPN and SportsCenter seem to refuse to admit it exists.

Ah yes thanks.

[vee4xu]

Butler is a nice little program who rode two well earned Final Four appearances to reach the BE just one year removed from the Horizon Conference. They rely on getting above average talent, great coaching and old school ball movement to win games. That recipe doesn't work in leagues like the BE where athletes are faster. longer and stronger than Butler's. They compete with ND, Purdue, IU, OSU, UC, X and yes, even ud for players. Heck, they weren't able to keep Bluiett when he de-committed and he's in their back yard. I like Butler and from time-to-time they may make a run in the BE, but think that in most years they are in for a long slog in the BE for many years to come.

[xavierj]

There are only a few Big East programs that I worry about moving forward, Butler and Creighton aren't them.

The ones I do worry about are Depaul (because they have been Fordham for twenty plus years now), Georgetown (they need a new coach), and St. John's, who are a complete unknown as to what direction they are going.

I believe the other teams in our conference at least have a direction and a sense of what they are trying to accomplish, the above three im not so sure.

Are you worried about Providence at all? I think they will in trouble next year. They will lose Dunn and most likely Bentil and they are struggling now. They also only have one signed for next year and are thin as it is after Dunn and Bentil.

[Xville]

Are you worried about Providence at all? I think they will in trouble next year. They will lose Dunn and most likely Bentil and they are struggling now. They also only have one signed for next year and are thin as it is after Dunn and Bentil.

In the short term I worry about them next year, but in the long term I dont. Cooley can coach, they seem to have a solid fan base, and decent enough facilities.

I worry that Depaul, even though they are building a new arena a little closer to campus, are still going to be horrible. Georgetown needs a new coach fast before even more apathy sets in, St. John's may end up ok, but it remains to be seen.