XAVIER vs BUTLER

[scoscox]

They have made two National Championship games...that counts.

This isn't quite Dayton.

Not quite, but they're very close. Unfortunately for Dayton they had to play us twice a year for reinforcement.

[Muskie]

They are not close to Dayton. The Butler fans have nothing on UD and that's a good thing.


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[X-band '01]

True, but Butler needs to recruit better if they want to compete in the BE.

It helps now that they have a much more stable conference and coaching situation. Creighton is also beginning to reap the benefits of Big East recruiting; that's one reason why they have transfers like Maurice Watson Jr. to stay afloat for a couple of seasons.

[bleedXblue]

Remember last year when everyone was singing the praises of Holtman? Not so much anymore.

[XUFan09]

Remember last year when everyone was singing the praises of Holtman? Not so much anymore.
I still think he's a good coach. Try to find a plus-defender on this squad. Rosie Jones, I guess? You'll find a lot more minus-defenders. Meanwhile, he has some good offensive pieces but what he's done with them is impressive.

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[Irishdawg]

Remember last year when everyone was singing the praises of Holtman? Not so much anymore.

Like the other individual who responded, I don't think it's a coaching issue as much as a personnel issue. Not that it means a ton since Holtmann is the one who said it during the press conference, but when asked about the talent disparity, he said that Butler would have to string together multiple good recruiting classes to compete with the teams at the top of the league. He also referred to the 2016 class as the "first one", which I'm not sure how that makes the guys in the 2015 class that signed this year feel, but it's not a lie.

The 2016 class is the first one that Butler's had in the Big East that wasn't ranked at or near the bottom of the league. Will it continue? I certainly hope so, but I don't know. What I do know though is that Xavier has had some really good classes since joining the league, and the standings reflect that. Frankly we're somewhat lucky that Jones had to sit out for a year and that the 2014 class turned out as well as it has (not great certainly, but not bad either). Otherwise this year would be really painful for us.

[XU 87]

Like the other individual who responded, I don't think it's a coaching issue as much as a personnel issue. Not that it means a ton since Holtmann is the one who said it during the press conference, but when asked about the talent disparity, he said that Butler would have to string together multiple good recruiting classes to compete with the teams at the top of the league. He also referred to the 2016 class as the "first one", which I'm not sure how that makes the guys in the 2015 class that signed this year feel, but it's not a lie.



As I stated above, Butler's 2016 class has 3 guys in the Rivals top 150, one who is in the top 100. I think Xavier actually recruited the top 100 guy, Joey Brunk, fairly hard.

I doubt either of the two guys from Butler's 2015 class were in anyone's top 150. One guy is a center from Moeller who I doubt Xavier even recruited.

[boozehound]

You wouldn't be saying that if Stevens had stayed. Rather, two of our best players would be playing for them. Hell, had he stayed that might have been the knock on us right now.

They had some major coaching upheaval. I have little doubt they can recruit at this level.

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Good point, although it remains to be seen if Holtman can recruit at the level Stevens could. Those B2B title game appearances had to help Stevens' appeal as a recruiter significantly.

[XMuskieFTW]

It helps now that they have a much more stable conference and coaching situation. Creighton is also beginning to reap the benefits of Big East recruiting; that's one reason why they have transfers like Maurice Watson Jr. to stay afloat for a couple of seasons.

They also have two top 50 recruits for the 2017 class. I think now that this league has established itself as a powerhouse even after realignment, we will start to see more and more top recruits as time goes on.

[brucelee54]

Good point, although it remains to be seen if Holtman can recruit at the level Stevens could. Those B2B title game appearances had to help Stevens' appeal as a recruiter significantly.Someone mentioned if Stevens had stayed he probably would have went to Futler. One thing we do know if he had went there he wouldnt have pulled off that classless act dunk. That will come back and haunt this team mark my word.

[GreatWhiteNorth]

Talking about top recruits, is X ready for multiple 5-star one-and-done players? Look at UK this year as an example, 5-star freshmen take time to develop and build team chemistry. Many other high major teams with many 5-star recruits are not playing as great as should be on paper. Any opinion?

[xu82]

Talking about top recruits, is X ready for multiple 5-star one-and-done players? Look at UK this year as an example, 5-star freshmen take time to develop and build team chemistry. Many other high major teams with many 5-star recruits are not playing as great as should be on paper. Any opinion?

Is there a "threat" of this happening? I'll trust Mack to make it work if it come to pass. He knows what he's doing.

[Xville]

Talking about top recruits, is X ready for multiple 5-star one-and-done players? Look at UK this year as an example, 5-star freshmen take time to develop and build team chemistry. Many other high major teams with many 5-star recruits are not playing as great as should be on paper. Any opinion?

Huh? I dont see this as something xavier is gong to have to worry about...only teams that do this consistently are duke, kentucky, unc and kansas.

[MauriceX]

the 2 teams wound up with the same amount of fouls called on them, you win by 17 and you are complaining about being fouled on every possession?!?! I'd hate to see what would have happened yesterday if you thought the game was called well both ways.



Hey Irishdawg, not trying to pick a fight here, I respect your opinion and am glad you come to post! It's good to get the perspective from other fans, especially when they are sane people like you. However, I have to counter your point that the two teams ended up getting called for the same number of fouls and that we shot more free throws and that makes everything OK...

One of the stats that announcers like to throw out there is that Xavier makes more free throws than their opponents attempt. A huge part of Xavier's game is driving, getting penetration, and getting fouled. We have the ability to make jump shots too, but yesterday we were going to the basket pretty regularly. So when you look at it through that lens, it is absurd that we had only attempted one free throw in the first 30 minutes.

[Masterofreality]

One last thing about the game. Remy Abell was a huge part of yesterday's win...as if we didn't recognize this already.
A) Futler started hot and we were down 8 with the place rocking. Remy steps up and hits a big 3 from the top of the key to stop that run and X just went in from there.
B) There was a Warranty Deed officially recorded in the Marion County Courthouse yesterday. Grantor: Butler University. Grantee: Remy Abell. Property Legal Description: Kellen Dunham. #OWNED (again).

This is the stuff that teams are made of. James Farr doesn't score, but JP and Remy step up and score. Some don't rebound but Big Game James does....and on...and on...and on.
Another great team win yesterday.

[Wheelhouse]

Butler is the classiest program that ever classed up college basketball with all their class. All class all the classy time, you classless Xavier hooligans.

[LadyMuskie]

Butler is the classiest program that ever classed up college basketball with all their class. All class all the classy time, you classless Xavier hooligans.

You mean like when they classed up college basketball with their 100 year old, faulty shot clock? That was tres classy.

[Muskeagle]

This might be the funniest post I've read in awhile. You do realize your team shot 50% from 3, mostly because there were WIDE open driving lanes all day, and you guys were getting lay-ups when you weren't kicking it out for three because of guys cutting to the basket who clearly weren't being held or just driving unimpeded to the basket. So you shoot 58% from 2, 50% from 3, shoot more foul shots than the team you're complaining was fouling the entire game, Butler has 15 more field goal attempts because of offensive rebounds and fewer turnovers, and the 2 teams wound up with the same amount of fouls called on them, you win by 17 and you are complaining about being fouled on every possession?!?! I'd hate to see what would have happened yesterday if you thought the game was called well both ways.


Well, Irishdawg, I'm clearly just here for your amusement, so I say a job well done. The "facts" as you quote them are all well and good. The reality however, is that for the first 30 minutes of the game (before the outcome seemed pretty much finalized) it was frustrating to watch the repeated moving screens and holding (especially of Blueitt). Go back and watch if you doubt it. I watched the game, without knowing the result, about 8 hours after everyone else and wrote just after finishing the game. It WAS frustrating to watch the style throughout the game and the post was coming right off of that feeling of frustration...in the heat of the moment as it were. I was a high school official for 6 years, so sometimes I watch the officiating with that in mind. A large frustration to me over the years has been the lack of these sorts of calls (holding off ball and moving screens...esp. screens)...and in a year where they have supposedly become a point of emphasis, it was mind boggling to see hardly a single call all game on those two counts. That said, I'm glad I could be a source of amusement for you...especially on a day when your team could not be.

Moreover, the thing about "those kind of calls" and being fouled on "every possession" is that if a good ref calls it a few times...it stops HAPPENING on every possession. I didn't expect 45 more fouls to be called on Butler...because they do it every time...I expected 3-4 more calls, so they would know the referee is looking at it, and will call it if you do it.

[LA Muskie]

Someone mentioned if Stevens had stayed he probably would have went to Futler. One thing we do know if he had went there he wouldnt have pulled off that classless act dunk. That will come back and haunt this team mark my word.

That dunk will be haunting someone. But it ain't XU. I would imagine Butler has nightmares about us at this point.


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[Masterofreality]

The great "Ledgewood" of this board (not his Twitter moniker) is retweeting and quoting tweets from Futler fans whining about the classlessness of Xavier. It is an hilarious series.

@JMLedgewood if you want to follow along.

[bobbiemcgee]

I don't get arguments about officiating when the game was a blowout. Yes, it was very physical. That's how we roll.

[Strange Brew]

His responses are in a class of their own. He is totally outclassing the classiest of the classiest with each top class reply. I'm mean, I wish X was is the I-70 corridor from Pittsburgh to STL so it could be so classy. That area reeks of class. Just ask them.

[MauriceX]

I don't get arguments about officiating when the game was a blowout. Yes, it was very physical. That's how we roll.

It's about being process oriented, not results oriented. If you guess on a multiple choice test and get an A, it doesn't mean you shouldn't study ever again.

[xudash]

The great "Ledgewood" of this board (not his Twitter moniker) is retweeting and quoting tweets from Futler fans whining about the classlessness of Xavier. It is an hilarious series.

@JMLedgewood if you want to follow along.

Some of those Butler fans are really making the Butler fan base look petty and small.

[Blue Blobs Bro]

Hahahahaha the guy pretending they dropped out of his recruiting because of attitude issues,wow. Butler fans are the saltiest of the saltiest.

[bleedXblue]

To be fair, I popped over on their board to see how bad it is. For the most part it's pretty split. There is a large contingent that has no issue with the dunk.

I think what's awesome is that apparently some of them think that since we had a 15 point lead we were supposed to just let em score and not play out the last 30 seconds or so.

[Wheelhouse]

Hahahahaha the guy pretending they dropped out of his recruiting because of attitude issues,wow. Butler fans are the saltiest of the saltiest.

I think this guy is my favorite, too.

I'm enjoying the Butler fan reaction to JPs dunk way more than I should be. It's honestly made my holiday weekend. JM Ledgewood's Twitter feed has been a must follow since the dunk. It's utterly delightful.

[94GRAD]

I think this guy is my favorite, too.

I'm enjoying the Butler fan reaction to JPs dunk way more than I should be. It's honestly made my holiday weekend. JM Ledgewood's Twitter feed has been a must follow since the dunk. It's utterly delightful.

Butler tears are the saltiest

[Wheelhouse]

Butler tears are the saltiest

So, so, so salty.

Their board has plenty of level-headed folks (IrishDawg being one), but man, they have sooooooooo many fans that think their program is the moral compass of college basketball.

[xu82]

So, so, so salty.

Their board has plenty of level-headed folks (IrishDawg being one), but man, they have sooooooooo many fans that think their program is the moral compass of college basketball.

Their compass functions no better than their clock.

[Masterofreality]

Hahahahaha the guy pretending they dropped out of his recruiting because of attitude issues,wow. Butler fans are the saltiest of the saltiest.

Yeah, here's the actual message:
1969

[Irishdawg]

Well, Irishdawg, I'm clearly just here for your amusement, so I say a job well done. The "facts" as you quote them are all well and good. The reality however, is that for the first 30 minutes of the game (before the outcome seemed pretty much finalized) it was frustrating to watch the repeated moving screens and holding (especially of Blueitt). Go back and watch if you doubt it. I watched the game, without knowing the result, about 8 hours after everyone else and wrote just after finishing the game. It WAS frustrating to watch the style throughout the game and the post was coming right off of that feeling of frustration...in the heat of the moment as it were. I was a high school official for 6 years, so sometimes I watch the officiating with that in mind. A large frustration to me over the years has been the lack of these sorts of calls (holding off ball and moving screens...esp. screens)...and in a year where they have supposedly become a point of emphasis, it was mind boggling to see hardly a single call all game on those two counts. That said, I'm glad I could be a source of amusement for you...especially on a day when your team could not be.

Moreover, the thing about "those kind of calls" and being fouled on "every possession" is that if a good ref calls it a few times...it stops HAPPENING on every possession. I didn't expect 45 more fouls to be called on Butler...because they do it every time...I expected 3-4 more calls, so they would know the referee is looking at it, and will call it if you do it.

It all depends on your perspective when you watch the game. In the 1st half, Xavier shot 11 3's and 15 2's. Butler shot 7 3's and 28 2's and held an 8-4 advantage in the fouls called department and a 4-1 advantage at the foul line, so without even watching the game (and I did), it's pretty easy to see where each team's offensive focus was. Meanwhile, in the 2nd half, Xavier shot 7 3's and 18 2's, while Butler shot 15 3's and 16 2's, and Xavier had an 11-7 advantage in the foul department and 9-4 advantage in free throws attempted. The focus of the 2 teams offensively were different in each half, and the foul calls reflected that.

I'm not disputing whether or not there were missed calls in the game yesterday. There are in every game, and for the most part, they go both ways. Dunham gets held as much as anyone, and I'm sure Butler wouldn't be the first or last team that will probably hold Bluiett as he makes cuts. While I, like you, would like officials to make more off the ball calls, I also realize that I'm watching the game from a completely different angle than they are, have the benefit of DVR, slow-motion replay, etc. As long as they're consistent (which I think for the most part they were yesterday). Also, clearly our moving screens weren't working very well yesterday, as our offense was horrible.

This had no impact on the first meeting, but if you want to see someone getting egregiously held away from the ball and no call being made, I suggest you only need to look back to the first meeting between these two teams.

https://twitter.com/THicksBH/status/683371902472208384

Again, best of luck to you and your team unless we play you again, and then I'm hoping for another Creighton, Georgetown or Villanova-esque performance (without you losing any players to injury of course).

[xudash]

Yeah, here's the actual message:
1969

That's just sad.

[xu82]

Again, best of luck to you and your team unless we play you again, and then I'm hoping for another Creighton, Georgetown or Villanova-esque performance (without you losing any players to injury of course).

I really did read the rest of the post, but I'm just giddy that this list is so short. I had to get that out....

[xukeith]

Looks like teams look at Xavier as how Xavier look at UC in the 90's.

[xu82]

Looks like teams look at Xavier as how Xavier look at UC in the 90's.

Some hate us because we beat them (and we have some feistiness on the roster). Everyone hated UC because they were thugs. That made it more enjoyable to beat them. We beat UC, and we still hated them. That's the difference.

[XMuskieFTW]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ula8oi_M4Ww

[GIMMFD]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ula8oi_M4Ww

Classic episode, perfect timing. Beautiful post through and through.

[bleedXblue]

Looks like teams look at Xavier as how Xavier look at UC in the 90's.

examples?

UD and Butler are rivals. It's always going to be that way. Anyone else Keith?

[xu82]

examples?

UD and Butler are rivals. It's always going to be that way. Anyone else Keith?

Creighton seemed to like us just fine. :(

I think we're finally passed the brawl, that UC started.

[deepX]

Irishdawg,

For those Butler fans so outraged by that recent clip, they should think back to the play of Matt Howard. I have no doubt he would have done the exact same thing if given the opportunity. The following might refresh you memory. This was just part of "the Butler Way" not long ago. Generally, players try to get away with what they can on the court, some just more than others, regardless of who they play for.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3I1GN3QgFz0

deepX

[X-band '01]

Better to be hated because you're good than loved because you're irrelevant and any success is a puppies and rainbow story.

[Muskeagle]

It all depends on your perspective when you watch the game. In the 1st half, Xavier shot 11 3's and 15 2's. Butler shot 7 3's and 28 2's and held an 8-4 advantage in the fouls called department and a 4-1 advantage at the foul line, so without even watching the game (and I did), it's pretty easy to see where each team's offensive focus was. Meanwhile, in the 2nd half, Xavier shot 7 3's and 18 2's, while Butler shot 15 3's and 16 2's, and Xavier had an 11-7 advantage in the foul department and 9-4 advantage in free throws attempted. The focus of the 2 teams offensively were different in each half, and the foul calls reflected that.

I'm not disputing whether or not there were missed calls in the game yesterday. There are in every game, and for the most part, they go both ways. Dunham gets held as much as anyone, and I'm sure Butler wouldn't be the first or last team that will probably hold Bluiett as he makes cuts. While I, like you, would like officials to make more off the ball calls, I also realize that I'm watching the game from a completely different angle than they are, have the benefit of DVR, slow-motion replay, etc. As long as they're consistent (which I think for the most part they were yesterday). Also, clearly our moving screens weren't working very well yesterday, as our offense was horrible.

This had no impact on the first meeting, but if you want to see someone getting egregiously held away from the ball and no call being made, I suggest you only need to look back to the first meeting between these two teams.

https://twitter.com/THicksBH/status/683371902472208384

Again, best of luck to you and your team unless we play you again, and then I'm hoping for another Creighton, Georgetown or Villanova-esque performance (without you losing any players to injury of course).

Dude, you once again missed my point. Either, I can't write, or you're being obtuse. I'm not complaining about the outcome of the game. I'm not saying "DAMN IT! IF it weren't for these lousy refs we'd have won by 33 points....and that would help our Ken Pom Numbers and we'd be in a better position in March!" I also know that angles are different and calls are missed every game. I didn't say anything about the numerous calls of pushing in the back on rebounds I thought should have been called or the 3 pointer that Macura made while getting hit in the head by the defender--because I know in live action, angles, speed of game, and all sorts of things come into play. I also realize that ALL the facts you keep spouting off about have NOTHING to do with the two kinds of calls I was frustrated about. Moving screens and holding are different kinds of calls. Those are calls that are more about your pregame/halftime talk with other officials. Also, given that they didn't seem to be one time actions, but "style of play" type plays, I was mystified that the refs of this year, with this year's points of emphasis, didn't call a one. That's it. Number of 3 pointers taken.....foul totals.....have NOTHING to do with that because they have nothing to do with the shots you are taking. It was simply a style of play that Butler employed that I've been told ALL season long by numerous talking heads and articles wasn't going to be tolerated. That's it. I'm not besmirching Bulter as a program. Not calling a Chris Holtman a thug (or whatever the white equivalent is) like a number of the members of your board seem to be calling James Farr--for reasons unexplainable to me as he is just about the nicest guy I've seen on a court all year (constantly talking with the other team pleasantly and repeatedly offering to help players up). Hell, you could say Holtman is brilliant for having the team do it...since they weren't getting caught. But damn....it was frustrating to watch.

Good luck to Butler the rest of the way. I hope they win out. Of the bubble teams, I think they are the closest to the NCAAs with a good run to end the season, so I'm all for them winning as much as possible. I'm not quite sure why you've come to our board to take such offense to me be annoyed at a philosophical decision of the refs, but so be it. I've seen your posts before on the holylandofhoops board and don't have any problem with you.

As for the twitter video...you're right, should have been called. But again, that looks like a bizarre situation that probably no ref was watching (odd play on the sidelines where the refs were stretched out across the floor). What I was talking about is entirely different--a game long decision not to enforce moving screens and holds.

With that...I'm done on the subject.

[LA Muskie]

Muskeagle, the problem is that you are only looking at things from one perspective and assuming that's an accurate vantage point. It's not. It never is.


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[bleedXblue]

The calls or non-calls made or not made were heavily in favor in Butler for the first 30 minutes of the game. It's not often you get called for 7 straight fouls to start a game. Yeah, we won handily......so it gets glossed over.......

[Irishdawg]

Irishdawg,

For those Butler fans so outraged by that recent clip, they should think back to the play of Matt Howard. I have no doubt he would have done the exact same thing if given the opportunity. The following might refresh you memory. This was just part of "the Butler Way" not long ago. Generally, players try to get away with what they can on the court, some just more than others, regardless of who they play for.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3I1GN3QgFz0

deepX

Absolutely. I'll be the first to admit the dude was a huge flopper too. Video wasn't meant to incite outrage, merely to show that stuff goes uncalled every single game.

[Muskeagle]

Muskeagle, the problem is that you are only looking at things from one perspective and assuming that's an accurate vantage point. It's not. It never is.


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Yep....Looking at it from the perspective that moving screens and holds are a point of emphasis on the season, but not during this game and it frustrated me. That's it. That's what I said in the first post and then someone gets came on the board from another team and got all defensive like I was attacking their team. MOR made a comment about it mid game. I watched the game later, read the board after I watched, and agreed with his comment. I don't see what the big deal is. My observation of the game included some frustration because I don't think the refs called it like the rest of the season has been called. Irishdawg said it was the funniest thing ever and included all sorts of statistics that have nothing to do with my observation. How does the number of 3 pointers have anything to do with whether Blueitt was consistently being held? How does the fact that they took more twos have to do with whether they were setting illegal screens and not getting called for it? So I wrote back trying to point out that all the "facts" he talked about didn't really have anything to do with my point.

It's a message board. Clearly it is my opinion and perspective....but so is EVERY post on this board. We are all trying to make observations and draw conclusions. We all assume our vantage point is accurate to some degree. You say that assumption is "not" accurate. "It never is." Do you mean in general the assumption that "one's" vantage point is correct is never accurate? Or are you saying MY assumption that MY vantage point is never accurate? If it is the former, then what are you doing on a message board...as we are all making observations and stating opinions? If it is the latter, then, I'll agree to disagree...and while I respectfully disagree (naturally), you are welcome to your opinion of my inability to ever have an accurate viewpoint.

[UCGRAD4X]

Absolutely. I'll be the first to admit the dude was a huge flopper too. Video wasn't meant to incite outrage, merely to show that stuff goes uncalled every single game.

Not sure to whom the "outrage" comment was directed, or about which video you were specifically referencing...

As far as the 'bench holding' video from the first game: largely irrelevant to the discussion, making your inclusion seem somewhat 'outrageous'

re. the twitter clip:
The play is off the court. I assume refs (and most everyone's) attention was to what was happening ON the court. Not surprising no call was made, so not sure what this has to do with anything.

This is such an odd/unique situation, one can hardly imagine this ever coming up again - hard to make a case for how play/calls develops during games. If this is your evidence to show a 'pattern' - hard to form correlations with an "N" of one!

Interesting also, the comments associated with the clip mention 'outrage' about other (X) players' reaction to the offending player - the clip is cut off before any discernible reaction takes place. Throughout the clip, it doesn't look like ANYBODY is even looking at the two players involved, as you might expect, so how could assumptions about their reactions be made, even if evident on a longer clip?

FWIW - I would not have argued with a bench technical on the individual. In fact, I would hope that Mack would have legislated some discipline on the individual - and he very well may have (assuming of course he is even aware of this obscure action).

[Lloyd Braun]

I have no inside knowledge but will say that it appears Jalen was the holder, and he was benched to start the next game at St Johns. It may be unrelated, but it may not. Just speculation...

[LA Muskie]

Yep....Looking at it from the perspective that moving screens and holds are a point of emphasis on the season, but not during this game and it frustrated me. That's it. That's what I said in the first post and then someone gets came on the board from another team and got all defensive like I was attacking their team. MOR made a comment about it mid game. I watched the game later, read the board after I watched, and agreed with his comment. I don't see what the big deal is. My observation of the game included some frustration because I don't think the refs called it like the rest of the season has been called. Irishdawg said it was the funniest thing ever and included all sorts of statistics that have nothing to do with my observation. How does the number of 3 pointers have anything to do with whether Blueitt was consistently being held? How does the fact that they took more twos have to do with whether they were setting illegal screens and not getting called for it? So I wrote back trying to point out that all the "facts" he talked about didn't really have anything to do with my point.

It's a message board. Clearly it is my opinion and perspective....but so is EVERY post on this board. We are all trying to make observations and draw conclusions. We all assume our vantage point is accurate to some degree. You say that assumption is "not" accurate. "It never is." Do you mean in general the assumption that "one's" vantage point is correct is never accurate? Or are you saying MY assumption that MY vantage point is never accurate? If it is the former, then what are you doing on a message board...as we are all making observations and stating opinions? If it is the latter, then, I'll agree to disagree...and while I respectfully disagree (naturally), you are welcome to your opinion of my inability to ever have an accurate viewpoint.

My point was simply that as a fan it's nearly impossible to be objective when it comes to subjective things like referees' calls. By nature we focus more on the questionable calls/non-calls that affect us than those that affect our opponent. We have a natural, generally subconscious, bias.

As for foul counts, I would think we could all agree that's generally a bad way to assess things, especially with teams playing highly disparate offensive and defensive styles.


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[Muskeagle]

My point was simply that as a fan it's nearly impossible to be objective when it comes to subjective things like referees' calls. By nature we focus more on the questionable calls/non-calls that affect us than those that affect our opponent. We have a natural, generally unconscious bias.

As for foul counts, I would think we could all agree that's generally a bad way to assess things, especially with teams playing highly disparate offensive and defensive styles.


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I agree about it being hard to be objective. I also agree that "counting fouls" is a bad way to judge if a game is well officiated.

Lack of total objectivity (which is true for all of us...all the time) doesn't necessarily mean my observations were wrong. They MAY be, but it isn't an absolute, just because we aren't totally objective.

[Cheesehead]

Butler fans should be mad at their own player for throwing that weakass pass right to JP. X already used up clock on 3 straight possession in an effort to run out the game. Perhaps they need some participation trophies.

[D-West & PO-Z]

Butler fans should be mad at their own player for throwing that weakass pass right to JP. X already used up clock on 3 straight possession in an effort to run out the game. Perhaps they need some participation trophies.

I'm pretty sure Tre tipped it and that is how JP was able to steal it.

Was I mad JP dunked it like that? No.

Do I get Butler fans being upset about it? Yeah.

Are there reactions to it hilarious and make it worth the dunk? Yes.

Would X fans have been upset in the exact same situation if it was Villanova (a team who dominates us like we dominate Butler) doing that to us? I dont think it is a strecth to say yes most would be upset.

[Dawgs2014]

Butler fans should be mad at their own player for throwing that weakass pass right to JP. X already used up clock on 3 straight possession in an effort to run out the game. Perhaps they need some participation trophies.

I'm a butler fan, dislike x as much as x dislike butler, but everything you guys are saying is correct. Macura was not wrong at all to dunk that ball, and we look ridiculous for being such babies about it. It's on us to stop that. You guys have a points margin near 40 against us this year, who cares what the calls are?

[XUFan09]

If Villanova did that to us at the end of a blowout, I'd be pissed too, but not for any "classiness" B.S. It would just be the shit cherry on the shit sundae of a game. Same reason I hate Arch for making so many goddamn threes against us. All is fair in basketball, but I can still hate him for it.

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[D-West & PO-Z]

If Villanova did that to us at the end of a blowout, I'd be pissed too, but not for any "classiness" B.S. It would just be the shit cherry on the shit sundae of a game. Same reason I hate Arch for making so many goddamn threes against us. All is fair in basketball, but I can still hate him for it.

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Yeah I wouldnt go and try to make claims about Nova's lack of classiness either but I can guarantee you more than a handful of posters on this board would. Hell, we already have people who have said this about Nova and Jay Wright when the Ed situation happened.

[XUFan09]

Yeah I wouldnt go and try to make claims about Nova's lack of classiness either but I can guarantee you more than a handful of posters on this board would. Hell, we already have people who have said this about Nova and Jay Wright when the Ed situation happened.
Yup, very true. As fan bases that like the smell of their own farts, Xavier is somewhat up there. They're not on the same level as the Dukes, Daytons, IUs, and Butlers of the world, but they're up there.

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[bobbiemcgee]

I'm a butler fan, dislike x as much as x dislike butler, but everything you guys are saying is correct. Macura was not wrong at all to dunk that ball, and we look ridiculous for being such babies about it. It's on us to stop that. You guys have a points margin near 40 against us this year, who cares what the calls are?

The butler player had a chance to knock him on his ass, but instead went for the ole move.

[nuts4xu]

The butler player had a chance to knock him on his ass, but instead went for the ole move.

Which is what he should have done. Knocking JP on his ass wouldn't have changed the fact they lost by double digits. I wouldn't have been happy about the dunk, but JP stole a lackadaisical pass. Butler doesn't want to get embarrassed by a punctuation-mark dunk....they should continue to play until the final whistle, but no need to take a guy out in that situation. That's some bush league stuff right there, if that's what you are insinuating.

[Xtemporaneous]

A theme song for Butler fans:

https://youtu.be/571BuZeeQjE?t=16s

[KC4X]

Which is what he should have done. Knocking JP on his ass wouldn't have changed the fact they lost by double digits. I wouldn't have been happy about the dunk, but JP stole a lackadaisical pass. Butler doesn't want to get embarrassed by a punctuation-mark dunk....they should continue to play until the final whistle, but no need to take a guy out in that situation. That's some bush league stuff right there, if that's what you are insinuating.

According to a poster on their board (it may have been an X poster who knew someone by the bench), their coach said he should have put him on his ass.

[bobbiemcgee]

Which is what he should have done. Knocking JP on his ass wouldn't have changed the fact they lost by double digits. I wouldn't have been happy about the dunk, but JP stole a lackadaisical pass. Butler doesn't want to get embarrassed by a punctuation-mark dunk....they should continue to play until the final whistle, but no need to take a guy out in that situation. That's some bush league stuff right there, if that's what you are insinuating.


You're right they should have continued to play to the final whistle. The butler guy made no attempt to guard the player or block the shot.Pathetic.

[D-West & PO-Z]

I'm not sure there was a lot the Butler player could have done other than get completely trampled on by the time he even got to a position to try and do something. Basically stood there and taken a block and hope JP doesnt make it? Any other attempt to make him miss probably results in a flagrant foul and there was no time to make a real attempt at the ball.

[UCGRAD4X]

I'm not sure there was a lot the Butler player could have done other than get completely trampled on by the time he even got to a position to try and do something. Basically stood there and taken a block and hope JP doesnt make it? Any other attempt to make him miss probably results in a flagrant foul and there was no time to make a real attempt at the ball.

Right, the only chance he had was to either completely hammer JP, which, as nuts said, would be totally bush league...and

..the thing is, it would completely contradict what they are saying about JP! So for anyone to say what JP did is not ok (full disclosure; I would probably fall into that camp), and condone a flagrant foul, tells you everything you need to know.

He also could have just 'got in the way' or stuck a hand in there. Very little chance he is there in time / outside the arc, suffering a possible 'and one' or worse, injury for one or both, for which he would have been even further vilified.

No real upside for this guy.

[brucelee54]

I didn't realize we have such morons as X fans. UC fans have more class. I know you fans didn't even go to Xavier but dropped out of Woodward in 3rd grade.

[GoMuskies]

I didn't realize we have such morons as X fans. UC fans have more class. I know you fans didn't even go to Xavier but dropped out of Woodward in 3rd grade.

Interesting take sweet16

[bigdiggins]

I didn't realize we have such morons as X fans. UC fans have more class. I know you fans didn't even go to Xavier but dropped out of Woodward in 3rd grade.

Does Woodward have a 3rd grade? I thought Woodward was only the name of the high school?

[paulxu]

It's unusual to go 3 for 3 coming out of the chute.

[X-band '01]

Interesting take sweet16

Pretty sure it's not Sweet16; he'd be attacking specific posters out of the chute. Just a random drive-by troll who has already managed to make it to the bottom 3 in reputation even with only 3 posts. That is a very impressive body of work.

[X-band '01]

I take that back - he/she should be in 4th place but Sweet16 isn't listed since he's banned for the time being.

[Wheelhouse]

I didn't realize we have such morons as X fans. UC fans have more class. I know you fans didn't even go to Xavier but dropped out of Woodward in 3rd grade.

All the lulzzzzz. This guy is definitely my new favorite poster.

[xu82]

All the lulzzzzz. This guy is definitely my new favorite poster.

...enjoy it while you can. And of course, there's always the ignore feature if he lasts longer than expected.

[GIMMFD]

...enjoy it while you can. And of course, there's always the ignore feature if he lasts longer than expected.

Don't ban him, adds character to the board. Makes me laugh.

[X-man]

Pretty sure it's not Sweet16; he'd be attacking specific posters out of the chute. Just a random drive-by troll who has already managed to make it to the bottom 3 in reputation even with only 3 posts. That is a very impressive body of work.

How do you find the "reputation rankings"? Thanks.

[xu82]

Don't ban him, adds character to the board. Makes me laugh.

....do you mean like my dog adds "character" to my back yard?

[GIMMFD]

....do you mean like my dog adds "character" to my back yard?

Haha hey everybody has their roles in the world..

[D-West & PO-Z]

How do you find the "reputation rankings"? Thanks.

There may be an easier way, but:

Click on your username at the top of the page, which will bring you to you home page. On that page right under "new posts" it says "member list", click on that. Once on the page is automatically sorts by username alphabetical order but you can sort it by reputation by clicking on the word reputation. Click on it once and it shows you order starting with people with most reps, click again and it starts with least, or most negative reps.

You can sort by total number of posts as well clicking on "posts".

[X-man]

There may be an easier way, but:

Click on your username at the top of the page, which will bring you to you home page. On that page right under "new posts" it says "member list", click on that. Once on the page is automatically sorts by username alphabetical order but you can sort it by reputation by clicking on the word reputation. Click on it once and it shows you order starting with people with most reps, click again and it starts with least, or most negative reps.

You can sort by total number of posts as well clicking on "posts".

Thanks.