Thoughts on M2M defense

[Muskeagle]

This is just my 2 cents after watching the last two games and against teams who came in with a combined one win in conference play: Mack was making a concerted effort to work on the man to man defense. The 1-3-1 has become this team's primary defense. The last few games (Seton Hall, Providence especially) we played almost exclusively zone. It is clear that it has been our most effective defense all season. However, there will be times when we will HAVE to play M2M and it looked, to me at least, like Mack avoided the 1-3-1 as much as he could. He's coaching for the season...not just the game. What better time to work on something than with the two bottom teams in the conference? With Depaul, we didn't see the zone for over 16 mins. of the first half. With St. John's, I think it was longer than that. The M2M needs some work....and I think Mack chose those two games to make sure the team worked on it in game situations.

I, obviously, could be wrong, but it really felt like a "teaching moment" by Mack and the staff.

[XU 87]

For the most part, I think the 1-3-1 has been more effective than man. Mack has said that one reason the 1-3-1 has been so effective is because X doesn't play it the entire game. Depending on the matchups, he'll play 1-3-1 more in some games (see Providence).

[Drew]

I think deep down Mack still doesn't fully trust the zone. He preached M2M hard before he started the 1-3-1. Will be interesting to see what we lean on come NCAA tourney time.

[GoMuskies]

Maybe he's trying to get the m-2-m back in order before Nova comes to town. 1-3-1 + Nova = doom

[XUMIOH12]

it seems like he is trying to play more man to man defense against weaker teams lately, in hopes that it will become sufficient enough to use against Villanova and in the tournaments.

[D-West & PO-Z]

This is just my 2 cents after watching the last two games and against teams who came in with a combined one win in conference play: Mack was making a concerted effort to work on the man to man defense. The 1-3-1 has become this team's primary defense. The last few games (Seton Hall, Providence especially) we played almost exclusively zone. It is clear that it has been our most effective defense all season. However, there will be times when we will HAVE to play M2M and it looked, to me at least, like Mack avoided the 1-3-1 as much as he could. He's coaching for the season...not just the game. What better time to work on something than with the two bottom teams in the conference? With Depaul, we didn't see the zone for over 16 mins. of the first half. With St. John's, I think it was longer than that. The M2M needs some work....and I think Mack chose those two games to make sure the team worked on it in game situations.

I, obviously, could be wrong, but it really felt like a "teaching moment" by Mack and the staff.

Yeah I think you are right, it looked to me like Mack was purposely not going to 1-3-1 last 2 games. I'm guessing you are right that he is trying to get the man to man right against some lesser teams.

[Newswired]

I believe you are spot on, Muskeagle. I believe this is another example of Mack's improvement as a head coach (i.e., coaching for the season and not just the game at hand). Definitely fun to watch him develop over the years.

[XU 87]

Maybe he's trying to get the m-2-m back in order before Nova comes to town. 1-3-1 + Nova = doom

Nova picked it apart last game. That said, Nova hasn't shot like that all year, at least in the first half.

[xufan2434]

This is just my 2 cents after watching the last two games and against teams who came in with a combined one win in conference play: Mack was making a concerted effort to work on the man to man defense. The 1-3-1 has become this team's primary defense. The last few games (Seton Hall, Providence especially) we played almost exclusively zone. It is clear that it has been our most effective defense all season. However, there will be times when we will HAVE to play M2M and it looked, to me at least, like Mack avoided the 1-3-1 as much as he could. He's coaching for the season...not just the game. What better time to work on something than with the two bottom teams in the conference? With Depaul, we didn't see the zone for over 16 mins. of the first half. With St. John's, I think it was longer than that. The M2M needs some work....and I think Mack chose those two games to make sure the team worked on it in game situations.

I, obviously, could be wrong, but it really felt like a "teaching moment" by Mack and the staff.

I think everything you said is 100% spot on. And I do think at heart Mack is still a man to man guy. And I think these last two games, he's trying to get that defensive edge back to this team. Not that the defense was all that bad against St. Johns (it was in spots) because there were times when they just got loose balls. 1 play in particular JP held his ground, knocked the ball loose, guy got it back and got an and 1 out of it. That's just unfortunate. But if this team can get back to in your pocket for 40 minutes on the defensive end and really enjoy getting stops then they'll go to another level.

[xufan2434]

Nova picked it apart last game. That said, Nova hasn't shot like that all year, at least in the first half.

Honestly think playing against X brings something out of them. 100% expect Archie, Jenkins, and Shipp to play some of their best on the 24th

[GoMuskies]

Nova hasn't shot like that all year, at least in the first half.

They've never NOT shot like that against Xavier. At some point it's not them, it's us.

[bobbiemcgee]

Always wondered, and I'll answer my own question here, but why not try London in the 1-3-1 with Farr and Reynolds? 3 guys with approx. 7 foot wingspans and blocking abilities. Wow. Ok, I know, we need the offense on the other end, but would be fun to see what happens when all 3 collapse inside.

[XUFan09]

Always wondered, and I'll answer my own question here, but why not try London in the 1-3-1 with Farr and Reynolds? 3 guys with approx. 7 foot wingspans and blocking abilities. Wow. Ok, I know, we need the offense on the other end, but would be fun to see what happens when all 3 collapse inside.
It has happened from time to time. London is just on the outside looking in on the rotation.

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[XU 87]

They've never NOT shot like that against Xavier. At some point it's not them, it's us.

The 1-3-1 was bad that day, but I think Archie was in a huge shooting slump going into that game and then I think went something like 5-6 from the three in the first half.

[GoMuskies]

Just needed some open looks to get out of his slump. :)

[XU 87]

Just needed some open looks to get out of his slump. :)

true, if you leave people wide open, their shooting percentages tend to go up.

[EastCoastXman]

Agree 100% that Mack was using the last 2 games to get some in game M2M practice. Teams with quick guards like Balamou give us trouble. We can't stay in front of them and that puts pressure on our back line defenders. I think X only used the 1-3-1 on the last possession of the first half when St Johns nailed a 3. Then for a short period in the 2nd half when they built the 7 point lead. Teams learn to attack the 1-3-1 from the corners. I would now like to see Mack add a 2-3 to the defensive list. Use of the 2-3 eliminates the corner shot but does open up the foul line. But by changing defenses from M2M, 1-3-1 and possibly a 2-3, you are always changing the look for the other team. With the shorter shot clock, it takes time to adjust your offensive set. You can show the 1-3-1 and then on the first pass you can adjust down to the 2-3. In some cases if you can disrupt 2 or 3 possessions in a row, and then score on your end, you give your team that little cushion. Trust The Coach he has gotten us this far!

[markchal]

I agree with a lot in here. Our m2m needs work, so he's been working on it. It's just a little disappointing that we are so reliant on the 1-3-1. But, our length and ability to rebound in what's a difficult defense to rebound out of has been pretty instrumental in our success. Especially when you consider how it allows more PT for Reynolds and Farr, since it cuts down on our fouls.

Like others have said, I don't think teams will ever be able to completely "figure out" the 1-3-1, because of how well we play it, and our personnel, and just given the fact that most teams don't face it much so don't prepare for it a ton. That should help even more in the tournament, because those teams haven't faced it 2-3x already. I'm fine with playing it a lot, but I hope we can get to where it's not a total disaster when we don't play it (or when we can't, against a good shooting team).

[Masterofreality]

Agree 100% that Mack was using the last 2 games to get some in game M2M practice. Teams with quick guards like Balamou give us trouble. We can't stay in front of them and that puts pressure on our back line defenders. I think X only used the 1-3-1 on the last possession of the first half when St Johns nailed a 3. Then for a short period in the 2nd half when they built the 7 point lead. Teams learn to attack the 1-3-1 from the corners. I would now like to see Mack add a 2-3 to the defensive list. Use of the 2-3 eliminates the corner shot but does open up the foul line. But by changing defenses from M2M, 1-3-1 and possibly a 2-3, you are always changing the look for the other team. With the shorter shot clock, it takes time to adjust your offensive set. You can show the 1-3-1 and then on the first pass you can adjust down to the 2-3. In some cases if you can disrupt 2 or 3 possessions in a row, and then score on your end, you give your team that little cushion. Trust The Coach he has gotten us this far!

Absolutely correct in all respects- especially CMack getting in-game work on the man to man.

[Muskeagle]

I think what makes the 1-3-1 so effective is not only the length at the top (Sumner or Macura....or even Abell), but the length at the bottom. Most teams that employ the 1-3-1 end up with a 6' guy on the baseline, but X gets to play it with a 6'10" guy at the bottom. Hard to shoot over AND it sets us up with a huge rebounding advantage most teams don't have. Add to it that the guy in the middle of the 3 is usually 6'10" as well....that's a disruptive shot blocker and another big rebounder near the basket. I think the 1-3-1 is least effective with Austin and Myles on the wings because it makes the corner pass so difficult.. Moreover, while zones are usually harder to rebound out of, we not only have big guys down low, the zone seems to push the offense farther from the hoop, so there are fewer offensive players to contend with for rebounding.

It doesn't work as well with Nova, not only because they seem to shoot well out of it, they also seem to be one of the best passing teams. They find the seams better than most teams and pass more crisply. The height tends to make most teams to pass softly (high arching passes over the defenders) which allows the zone to reset to the new ball handler. Nova passes quickly and therefore gets more open shots as the zone can't reset.

[vee4xu]

X's mtm defense has been subpar for the past few years.

[LA Muskie]

Most teams that employ the 1-3-1 end up with a 6' guy on the baseline, but X gets to play it with a 6'10" guy at the bottom.

I don't think I've ever seen a 6' guy on the baseline of a 1-3-1 half-court zone defense. It's almost always manned by the 4. If anything, our deviation is that we often play a 2 (JP) at the top.


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[Snipe]

Interesting and thought provoking thread. I think Mack is certainly a man to man defense guy at heart. The 1-3-1 has been so incredibly effective for us at times that he just can't not use it. Plus I think fans get excited when they see us make the defensive switch and we get a stop or two.

I also think our long but yet relatively inexperienced end of the bench has facilitated more zone. We are going deep into the bench and I think the zone makes it easier to do it as you can't run isolation or post them up. Zone is more forgiving for the young guns and actually allows for some aggressive chance taking because you can get help.

Zone rebounding overall has been good, but it can still be frustrating because you don't know who was supposed to block out who, whereas in man you can call somebody out and say "that is your man why the H aren't you blocking him out". Rebounders can sneak in the seems of the zone and I can't stand when our opponents get extra shots.

The only Skip quote on zone "I don't like it because I don't know who to yell at".

And I too like when London comes in to play the zone with his reach. He is caught in a numbers game right now and he is a Freshman, but I think that kid is going to be a player. I can also imagine the other teams fans saying "who the hell is that guy? does it ever end?" when he comes in, blocks a shot, gets a rebound and nails a 3. Having talent like that in our back pocket is just another reason why it is good to be KING.

Great thread guys and nice points.

[X-Fan]

As others have said, good thread. I also believe that Coach is working on the M2M against lesser teams. It's frustrating at times, both because they struggle & because you just want them to put the opponent away, but it's necessary to better the team. One other thought on X's M2M struggles, I believe the stricter rules enforcement the last two years have made it more difficult to play stifling M2M without fouling...because I've never seen X play M2M this bad.

Keep on working fellas! It's going to pay off very soon! Go X!!!!

[scoscox]

I don't think I've ever seen a 6' guy on the baseline of a 1-3-1 half-court zone defense. It's almost always manned by the 4. If anything, our deviation is that we often play a 2 (JP) at the top.


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Ehh, depends on coach and personnel. A lot of teams end up playing it that way because coaches like to have speed on the baseline of a 1-3-1. The 4 will play the wing or the top.

[Muskeagle]

Ehh, depends on coach and personnel. A lot of teams end up playing it that way because coaches like to have speed on the baseline of a 1-3-1. The 4 will play the wing or the top.

This is the way I've usually seen it.