Hillary Clinton

[Snipe]

Does anyone here love Hillary Clinton? Does anyone really like Hillary Clinton? I know I am biased but by looking at Iowa and New Hampshire it doesn't look like other Democrats are particularly fond of her.

Like I said I am biased about Hillary Clinton. She scares me in ways other politicians don't. I would not want to be on the wrong side of her. I can see her enjoying destroying the lives of her political enemies, or anyone who crosses her. That guy who used to do the White House travel plans was ruined, and he never did much of anything to her outside of existing. Cold blooded that woman.

Her challenger is Bernie Sanders. I like Bernie Sanders, at least as a person he is likable, and I think he is honest. For a politician, I respect that. He isn't going to lie to you. How many politicians can you say that about? The problem would be that hard core socialism thing. The guy spent his honeymoon in the Soviet Union. That man is a true believer.

Now Communism didn't turn out well, but that hasn't rid the Cathedral of Marxists.

I probably wouldn't care for some Socialism if he didn't also embrace open borders. My mind can't wrap around those two concepts. There is a dichotomy in the progressive left where they champion both socialism and open borders. Life is really about trades offs. Choices have consequences. Maybe these two things are mutually exclusive.

Like say, importing 50 million dirt poor low skill people from Latin America since 1966. We have done this for 50 years. The numbers swell when you imagine their children born here who aren't included in the numbers. So we imported dirt poor people, and suddenly we see that the gap between the rich and poor has grown. Who could have predicted that? Suddenly we see working class people struggling, because we just imported 50 million dirt poor people to drive down their wages.

It has decimated the Black community. I think that they were the hardest hit. But it made things cheaper for all of the elite. Want a nanny? You can get an affordable one, because she is subsidized by food stamps and welfare and medicaid. Want to build an extension to your Mega-McMansion? Well those roofers come a lot cheaper since we started importing them, and the construction guys too.

Mark Zuckerburg wants to do it to the Silicon Valley with HB1 Visas. He doesn't have enough Visas and his costs are too high!


Government data show that since 2000 all of the net gain in the number of working-age (16 to 65) people holding a job has gone to immigrants (legal and illegal). This is remarkable given that native-born Americans accounted for two-thirds of the growth in the total working-age population. Though there has been some recovery from the Great Recession, there were still fewer working-age natives holding a job in the first quarter of 2014 than in 2000, while the number of immigrants with a job was 5.7 million above the 2000 level.

All of the net increase in employment went to immigrants in the last 14 years partly because, even before the Great Recession, immigrants were gaining a disproportionate share of jobs relative to their share of population growth. In addition, natives' losses were somewhat greater during the recession and immigrants have recovered more quickly from it. With 58 million working-age natives not working, the Schumer-Rubio bill (S.744) and similar House measures that would substantially increase the number of foreign workers allowed in the country seem out of touch with the realities of the U.S. labor market.

And it is not like all of our legal and illegal immigrants are working their tails off. Mexico and Latin American immigrants in the first and second generations enroll in welfare at outsized rates. And the Obama Administration wants them here. The Department of Agriculture has even run ads on Mexican televison telling people how to qualify for food stamps. Shoot me.

Why do we want them here if we are concerned about unequal wealth, when their very existence here tends to skew the wealth distribution? When Progressives tell you that poverty causes crime, ask them why they are in favor of importing 10s of millions of poor people. They already had it figured out what a bad idea this was. One reason, the reason, is that they are going to vote Democrat, and they are going to turn this country into a stable Democratic majority forever. Immigration is the gift that keeps on giving for the Democratic party, even while it hurts native working class people living in poverty who are the "Democratic Base"

I could deal with high tax rates for the rich. I am not rich. I could deal with universal medical care. I don't think these things are optimal. What I can't deal with is all of that and the open borders. Who is gonna pay for that? Does Bernie want him some Sryians? I am sure he does because "it is the right thing to do". Does he want amnesty for illegals? You betcha! And more would just come pouring over the border.

I don't know how we go about trying to equalize wealth distribution, if that is what you want to do, while still letting dirt poor people come in for their share too. It just doesn't work. I can't see how it ever can.

We have third world problems in America. Flint Michigan can't get clean drinking water. That wasn't always the case. We have burnt out and boarded up "No Go" zones in every major American city. That wasn't always the case. Think about how bad your city has to get for you not to have even clean water. We spend billions a year trying to get clean water to poor people all over the world, yet we fail here at home. On Maslow's hierarchy of needs, I think clean water comes first, before anything else. The people of Flint can't even do that right. Time to get back to basics my friends.

The solution is not to just bring in tens of millions of more poor people. We tried that for 50 years. I know you thought it was a good idea at the time. Its OK, everyone else that mattered said the same thing. It must have been in the water. But it turns out importing 3rd world poverty may not in the end by a great solution to the seemingly intractable problems that already afflict us.

I could do with Socialism well before I could deal with our open borders. We have been talking all the juveniles that show up on our borders for some time now. How could that possibly end poorly, what a great idea. "It is who we are"! We have been paying for airfare to reunite families because Mexico is a dangerous place to cross through coming from Central America. We actually pay the airfare! Cause we have plenty of money. You can't get water in Flint, but you can get a direct flight for Honduras! "IT IS WHO WE ARE!"

Now building a wall and having actual borders, that is not who we are, you racists.

The administration clarified rules for refugees to the point that being a Single Mother may be able to qualify you for refugee status. I am not kidding. What could possibly go wrong? Our jails are already filled with the human detritus born of broken homes, yet we are campaigning for more. Why? You ever see how Single Mothers vote? They vote Democrat!

We don't even do obvious things like screen for costly diseases. Many diseases thought gone for decades have come back with a fury when we opened up the floodgate for the tired, poor unwashed masses. What does that cost? How many American lives has that cost? It isn't like we have an expensive medical system or something, and we have money to burn. We don't even screen for AIDS patients anymore, because RACIST. AIDS is very expensive. We used to not admit people here that had that communicable, expensive, deadly diseases. That may have sound prudent at the time, but new age thinkers know that was just dog whistle Gentile racism. We need those AIDS patients. And why not, what could possibly go wrong you racist?

Maybe this doesn't end well.

So I guess this thread started about Hillary. I still don't like her. Democrats don't seem to either. I will probably vote for the Amazing Bernie the in the primary.

Glad I could get that out of my system. Carry on.

TL/DR

[X-man]

I don't like Hillary either, but the candidate who scares me the most is Ted Cruz. I'm guessing you feel the same way, given your stated antipathy above for nasty people because by all accounts Cruz is the nastiest and meanest of all the candidates from either party. You really don't want to cross him; just ask his fellow Republicans.

[Masterofreality]

Well, at least Iowa proved that there is still SOME hope for America, that the actual people that vote aren't necessarily swayed by the media circus that has coalesced around Trump and Clinton. Cruz won and Billary (intentional) and Bern tied. Billary cannot win. I believe Rubio will come out of the Republican Convention up here in Cleveland (yes folks, CLEVELAND) with the nomination. I also hope Kasich gets a shot at VP. I'd really like for our Governor to be the nominee, but he just can't get enough juice going.
By the way, I don't agree with Maureen Dowd very often, but I sure do agree with her on her disdain for the Clintons. Can they please exit stage left? Please?

[bleedXblue]

Who doesn't divorce their spouse after multiple public indiscretions, including a BJ in the Oval Office? The Oval Office she wants to occupy. She has no shame. She has no morals. She cannot be our president.

[GoMuskies]

I like Hillary. She's by far the least scary of the actual contenders save for maybe Rubio, but he's awfully green. She's about as moderate as they come, and nothing significant is going to change in a Hillary presidency, which I like. I find Bernie Sanders much more frightening. There's nothing more scary than an honest politician.

[Milhouse]

great to hear snipe has started to feel the bern

[SemajParlor]

I'm pretty much terrified by any result at this point. I'm not a fan of Hillary or Sanders and Trump Cruz and Rubio scare the HELL out of me.

[SemajParlor]

Rubio might be deemed as the least scary out of Cruz and Trump, but his stance on many issues is downright frightening in my eyes. He's a slithering career politician that's way too inconsistent.

[Xville]

I don't agree with Rubio on most of the social issues, but this country has more pressing matters to deal with in regards to the economy, health care, and foreign policy. So because of that, to me he is the best of the candidates that have a chance to win the thing.

Trump and Sanders scare the crap out of me for completely different reasons.
Hillary should be in jail.
Cruz is a crazy bible thumper.

[ArizonaXUGrad]

I think Snipe needs to understand the truth circumstances of Bernie's "Soviet Honeymoon". There is always a truth behind propaganda. Yes it was after he was married, no it was not really a honeymoon, but rather a trip to see a 'sister city' of his which he was currently the mayor. The two cities frequently participated in exchange programs. This sounds a tad more innocent now huh?

Single payer healthcare, paid maternity/paternity leave, there is much more on his platform is absolutely a thing of the future and would really bring the US up to speed with the rest of the first world. I am not 100% on board with totally open borders, but the cat is out of the bag for those that are here. We can't change that. I think a system that most countries employ would work here. In Germany, there are jobs Germans just don't do in which case they employ labor from foreign nations e.g. Turkey. They come to Germany on work visas, earn their Euros, and go home upon completion of the work. They return as necessary.

Snipe, as a resident of a border state and one that has had knowledge of illegals I can say that is mainly what they do. They come up, work, make their money, and go home only to repeat the process again and again. Why we can't have a similar system is beyond me? Give them temporary work visas, have them pay some taxes, and let them return home. It's a win/win. USA saves money on excessive enforcement that doesn't work anyway, USA gets a labor force for jobs Americans won't do, USA gets payroll taxes and taxes when the migrant labor spend their money, it's all a win/win.

[LadyMuskie]

I doubt I'll vote in November. All of the candidates are terrible in one way or another, with Sanders, Trump and Cruz being the absolute worst of the lot. Sanders is a left wing nut job, and all the young people clamoring to vote for him are clueless. If he gets the democratic nomination I could see myself voting Republican. If Trump, who is so far off the reservation it's truly terrifying, gets the nomination for the Republicans I could see myself voting for Hilary. If it's Sanders v. Trump, I don't know what we do. Pray for a sinkhole to swallow up D.C.? Prepare for Armageddon?

If it's Rubio v. Clinton, I think Rubio will win. 12 years of any one party in the white house is a lot, and a lot of people really hate Hilary. I can live with Rubio. He's not the best choice, but then no one running is.

[Frambo]

Hillary is dirty

It bothers me that my vote (which goes to whoever runs against her) gets cancelled out by others who don't take the time to study up on her. Read about her career....listen to those that have worked for/around her....check out scandal after scandal. And even though Bill's Presidency was ok, it bothers me that he is a sex maniac and violated the sanctity of the oval office with interns and others. As a socially moderate/finacially conservative, I also fear what she would do to the supreme court as spots open up the next few years.

[ArizonaXUGrad]

I guess I don't know what is so scary about Sanders. Enlighten me with specifics please.


I doubt I'll vote in November. All of the candidates are terrible in one way or another, with Sanders, Trump and Cruz being the absolute worst of the lot. Sanders is a left wing nut job, and all the young people clamoring to vote for him are clueless. If he gets the democratic nomination I could see myself voting Republican. If Trump, who is so far off the reservation it's truly terrifying, gets the nomination for the Republicans I could see myself voting for Hilary. If it's Sanders v. Trump, I don't know what we do. Pray for a sinkhole to swallow up D.C.? Prepare for Armageddon?

If it's Rubio v. Clinton, I think Rubio will win. 12 years of any one party in the white house is a lot, and a lot of people really hate Hilary. I can live with Rubio. He's not the best choice, but then no one running is.

[LadyMuskie]

I don't understand people who want to blame Hilary for Bill's sexual actions in the Oval office. How is that her fault? She's definitely guilt of a lot - maybe even murder (Vince Foster), but to blame her for Bill being unable to keep his penis in his pants while president is either extreme sexism or extreme stupidity. Maybe both.

Plus, I'd argue there are no clean politicians in D.C. Some are dirtier than others, but Rubio, Cruz, Sanders, etc. etc. are dirty as well. You can't get to that level without having skeletons in your closet and without taking money from sketchy places. Hilary's closet has just been around for a lot longer than most.

[ArizonaXUGrad]

The truly sad part of this is that one really must go way back in time before you find a honest and good president. I guess Bush I didn't have any major issues during his presidency that I remember, but he should have the stink of Iran Contra on him from the late Reagan second term. Really, Eisenhower and Truman would be how long one must go back. Even Eisenhower was rumored to have had a long affair.


I don't understand people who want to blame Hilary for Bill's sexual actions in the Oval office. How is that her fault? She's definitely guilt of a lot - maybe even murder (Vince Foster), but to blame her for Bill being unable to keep his penis in his pants while president is either extreme sexism or extreme stupidity. Maybe both.

Plus, I'd argue there are no clean politicians in D.C. Some are dirtier than others, but Rubio, Cruz, Sanders, etc. etc. are dirty as well. You can't get to that level without having skeletons in your closet and without taking money from sketchy places. Hilary's closet has just been around for a lot longer than most.

[Frambo]

I don't understand people who want to blame Hilary for Bill's sexual actions in the Oval office. How is that her fault? She's definitely guilt of a lot - maybe even murder (Vince Foster), but to blame her for Bill being unable to keep his penis in his pants while president is either extreme sexism or extreme stupidity. Maybe both.


I'm not blaming her necessarily.....although she has known about him her whole married life. I just don't want the perv back in the WH with MORE time on his hands!

There are many reports though about her working to silence some of the victims...if this is true, then I do blame her more than before.

[LadyMuskie]

I guess I don't know what is so scary about Sanders. Enlighten me with specifics please.

He's a socialist. He admits he's a socialist. Socialism is not good.

[LadyMuskie]

The truly sad part of this is that one really must go way back in time before you find a honest and good president. I guess Bush I didn't have any major issues during his presidency that I remember, but he should have the stink of Iran Contra on him from the late Reagan second term. Really, Eisenhower and Truman would be how long one must go back. Even Eisenhower was rumored to have had a long affair.

George H.W. Bush was head of the CIA. No way he was clean. Maybe he was in his personal life, but who knows. You don't get to be head of the CIA without learning how to hide a few things here and there.

I'd argue there's never been a truly clean president. Washington was no saint. He had slaves and admitted it was wrong. Jefferson was no angel. Adams and Truman might be the exception. . . maybe.

You don't get the kind of power the president gets by being scrupulous. That's the trade off. You sell your soul to the devil for a chance at the office.

[GoMuskies]

Well, Honest Abe was a fucking saint. Damn you LM for blaspheming!

[GoMuskies]

I don't know what is so scary about Sanders.

I want to keep some of my money.

[LadyMuskie]

Well, Honest Abe was a fucking saint. Damn you LM for blaspheming!

Sorry.

[Xville]

if sanders is elected president, im quitting my job...i mean why work....the government will take care of us :perfect10:

[JTG]

I don't think it is possible to be more insincere than Hillary. What a scheming, lying,politician. I frequently tell people if you parted the hair on the back of her head you would find three 6's...the sign of the Devil.

[CSS85]

I guess I don't know what is so scary about Sanders. Enlighten me with specifics please.

It would be easier to list the things that aren't scary about Sanders, in a variety of areas but since most people list the economy as top priority I'll focus there. I do give the guy the steel balls award for advocating economic policies that have a 99% failure rate for the 100+ years they've been tried all over the world - including the United States from the 1930s until the early 1980s. Do you want "stagflation" back with interest rates over 18% and inflation at 12%, and major industries dying on the world stage after leading the world for the previous century? If so, Sanders has your formula for government control of all things they've showed they aren't good at, specifically spending correlated with actual results. The flaws of collectivism are both theoretical and experiential, and the only way to miss that is to place blinders on or not to look at all. Sanders feeds on the ignorance (meaning lack of knowledge) and naivete of young people, the apathy of "busy suburbanites, and the elitist isolation of the academic community.

To my knowledge Sanders cited exactly one place on the planet that his vision of socialism (or the nicer sounding Democratic Socialism) works better than the current system in the USA - Denmark. Apart from the fact that there is virtually nothing about Denmark culturally, historically, and economically that resembles the USA, he failed to mention that Denmark was BETTER in these supposed areas BEFORE they implemented the bulk of the socialist processes, so Denmark's position as the beacon of enlightened collectivism represents a path DOWNWARD, not a path UP. I wonder why Sanders didn't cite Venezuela as the model for enlightened Democratic Socialism as it is the most recent example of changing from the dirty Capitalism and individualism of the 1980s and 1990s to the current sophisticated elevation of Government control and distribution of income and production. Well, actually I know why.

I'm a huge history buff, so I actually like Sanders in the race because it allows me to see what politics in the 1890s was like. You can read about Populism, and read the speeches and all, but actually seeing how living, breathing, people respond to it is really interesting. Of course in the 1890's, and even through the New Deal, there was virtually no data on the actual results of these policies, whereas we now have 100 years worth from various parts of the world in all types of societies, which brings me back to admiring the guts it takes to actually advocate these things in 2016.

But to revisit the Hillary part of this thread, I don't understand how Hillary is still seriously considered a candidate for any political office let alone POTUS since in 2008 she did the EXACT SAME THING as Brian Williams did recently, and he was excoriated, fired, and is assumed to be in restraints in Guantanamo. I also assume the reporter who called out Hillary's lie and re-ran the original story is appropriately imprisoned as well. Does this mean that in 2016 the USA places more value on a guy who reads a teleprompter for a few minutes a day than in who is President?

Up to now my favorite election was the 1824 debacle, but 2016 is shaping up to exceed it by a pretty wide margin.

[xudash]

I don't understand people who want to blame Hilary for Bill's sexual actions in the Oval office. How is that her fault? She's definitely guilt of a lot - maybe even murder (Vince Foster), but to blame her for Bill being unable to keep his penis in his pants while president is either extreme sexism or extreme stupidity. Maybe both.

Plus, I'd argue there are no clean politicians in D.C. Some are dirtier than others, but Rubio, Cruz, Sanders, etc. etc. are dirty as well. You can't get to that level without having skeletons in your closet and without taking money from sketchy places. Hilary's closet has just been around for a lot longer than most.

I agree with you that she cannot be held to blame for his indiscretions.

I believe most of what you're seeing with her is her total body of work, if you will - getting kicked off her Watergate member's team for her unethical behavior, Vince Foster (I still can't believe he was able to walk himself to the park like that when he was already mostly dead), moving forward with Bill at all (marital) costs.

In short, her career comes first, and she is very comfortable in subordinating ethical and moral behavior to achieve her personal interests. That continues now with her conduct as Secretary of State.

Bernie is a loon.

Trump scares me for the most part, though he certainly seems like he could stand the establishment on its head if he is elected.

I simply don't trust Cruz with the keys.

I would prefer a ticket of Rubio and Kasich: they seem to be "electable" and they would bring some fiscal sanity to the party.

Yes, they all have skeletons.

Obama has been a disaster and abject failure, so, with the notable exception of Comrade Bernie, and assuming slick Willy would help his wife to migrate back towards the middle as he was able to do, the rest of them will have a low bar to jump in order to show the appearance of progress.

[SemajParlor]

Obama has been a disaster and abject failure

Disagree. I think overall he's been very good. These new candidates are just a reminder to me how much I took him for granted in office.

[Xville]

Disagree. I think overall he's been very good. These new candidates are just a reminder to me how much I took him for granted in office.

I don't know how anyone can say he has been good. He has expanded medicaid, something that will eventually bankrupt the states if not fixed, racial tensions are at an all time high, he hasn't done anything to financially reform the country, Russia has become his daddy, he withdrew too quickly from Iraq which helped for isis to gain steam. I could go on and on.

[blobfan]

...But to revisit the Hillary part of this thread, I don't understand how Hillary is still seriously considered a candidate for any political office let alone POTUS since in 2008 she did the EXACT SAME THING as Brian Williams did recently, and he was excoriated, fired, and is assumed to be in restraints in Guantanamo. I also assume the reporter who called out Hillary's lie and re-ran the original story is appropriately imprisoned as well. Does this mean that in 2016 the USA places more value on a guy who reads a teleprompter for a few minutes a day than in who is President?
...

I'm assuming this is a testament to how much dirt the Clintons have on people of influence in politics and media.

[LadyMuskie]

Disagree. I think overall he's been very good. These new candidates are just a reminder to me how much I took him for granted in office.

He's been average, not unlike the guy in office before him.

I imagine all presidents will be average going forward until both parties can agree to work together for the betterment of the nation instead of spending every waking hour trying to figure out how to destroy the other side.

[blobfan]

He's been average, not unlike the guy in office before him.

I imagine all presidents will be average going forward until both parties can agree to work together for the betterment of the nation instead of spending every waking hour trying to figure out how to destroy the other side.

Or figuring out how to best position themselves for re-election/their next job.

[chico]

I would prefer a ticket of Rubio and Kasich: they seem to be "electable" and they would bring some fiscal sanity to the party.



I'd love to see this switched, but that's a longshot at best, so of those who have a realistic shot at the nomination, this is the ticket I'd like to see as well.

The only redeeming value of Clinton that sets her apart from Sanders and Cruz is that she at least is not an ideologue. She's the ultimate opportunist and will stop at nothing to get what she wants, but if she follows her husband's script she may at least work across the aisle if it would benefit her. The reality is, though, we really don't know what she'd do because she's one of the most dishonest politicians of our lifetime.

[ArizonaXUGrad]

If you think Junior was average, than there is truly no hope for your vote. Bush II was terrible. Including looking a blind eye towards predatory lending, skyrocketing drug costs, fear and war mongering on new scales, and the outright outing of an active agent of the CIA. So yeah, though Obama is certainly not my favorite he has been a breath of fresh air compared to the previous eight years.


He's been average, not unlike the guy in office before him.

I imagine all presidents will be average going forward until both parties can agree to work together for the betterment of the nation instead of spending every waking hour trying to figure out how to destroy the other side.

[ArizonaXUGrad]

The cat is out the bag, we are already a Democratic Socialist country and have been for a while now. Things like roads, cops, firemen, libraries, education, water, sewage, are all things that are provided for us by the government (through taxes). The people decided years and years ago there was an expectation they would be provided by the government. The real question is whether you are willing to make that list a tad longer that healthcare and other things should be placed on a level pedestal with those previous items and are also provided.

Some believe that Healthcare should remain a profit driven enterprise, driven by the whim of the market. This idea makes us an anomaly around the world.

[GoMuskies]

Some believe that Healthcare should remain a profit driven enterprise, driven by the whim of the market. This idea makes us an anomaly around the world.


I really don't know the answer to this question, so it is not baiting or loaded, but does the US lead the way in medical innovation? If so (and again, I don't know if it's true or not), do you think the profit motive has something to do with that?

[SemajParlor]

I don't know how anyone can say he has been good. He has expanded medicaid, something that will eventually bankrupt the states if not fixed, racial tensions are at an all time high, he hasn't done anything to financially reform the country, Russia has become his daddy, he withdrew too quickly from Iraq which helped for isis to gain steam. I could go on and on.

I disagree with everything here, other than being too soft on Russia.

Do you truly believe that A) throughout the history of the United States racial tensions are currently at an all time high? and B) one man should be responsible for these said societal relations?

[ArizonaXUGrad]

Innovation I cannot answer, however, our level of healthcare has been in the past and currently remains low on average. Fact is, healthcare is fantastic in the US if you are rich. It sucks if you aren't.

I would imagine most innovation comes from the US merely based on dollars spent and sheer population. If that number is reduced to per capita, it might show a different result.

My issue is this, the European economy is doing alright. It is even absorbing the difficulties of Spain/Greece/Italy (I would equate that to states here doing well and not so well). They provide their citizens quality healthcare that exceeds the level in the US and it's not even close. I never met a European that was crippled financially by sickness, but it's becoming a more and more common tale here at home.

I support Sanders for this reason. He has other points he discusses that he may have a chance to actually enact. I think healthcare (with Obamacare forcing the discussion) is the next big change this country absolutely needs.


I really don't know the answer to this question, so it is not baiting or loaded, but does the US lead the way in medical innovation? If so (and again, I don't know if it's true or not), do you think the profit motive has something to do with that?

[RoseyMuskie]

Having lived in Hamilton County for the 2008 and 2012 Elections, I felt a true sense of pride knowing that my vote mattered in the grand scheme of the election. Now, I'm almost happy that I live in a state (IL) where the map is already blue, because this election is looking more and more that it will be picking between two poisons.

[Xville]

I literally disagree with everything here, other than being too soft on Russia.

Do you truly believe that A) throughout the history of the United States racial tensions are currently at an all time high? and B) one man should be responsible for these said societal relations?

my bad..no i don't think they are at an all time high...what i meant to say was that he did nothing to ease the racial division of our nation, and in some ways, he made them worse...like pre-judging the cases of Ferguson and Travon Martin.

[SemajParlor]

my bad..no i don't think they are at an all time high...what i meant to say was that he did nothing to ease the racial division of our nation, and in some ways, he made them worse...like pre-judging the cases of Ferguson and Travon Martin.

No worries. I think we most likely disagree on a lot things - which is all good. Here's hoping that the next Pres (either he or she) is better than they appear now!

[ArizonaXUGrad]

Cops, roads, firemen, libraries, education, wow you hate a lot of things I like.


He's a socialist. He admits he's a socialist. Socialism is not good.

[Xville]

Innovation I cannot answer, however, our level of healthcare has been in the past and currently remains low on average. Fact is, healthcare is fantastic in the US if you are rich. It sucks if you aren't.

I would imagine most innovation comes from the US merely based on dollars spent and sheer population. If that number is reduced to per capita, it might show a different result.

My issue is this, the European economy is doing alright. It is even absorbing the difficulties of Spain/Greece/Italy (I would equate that to states here doing well and not so well). They provide their citizens quality healthcare that exceeds the level in the US and it's not even close. I never met a European that was crippled financially by sickness, but it's becoming a more and more common tale here at home.

I support Sanders for this reason. He has other points he discusses that he may have a chance to actually enact. I think healthcare (with Obamacare forcing the discussion) is the next big change this country absolutely needs.

Is that because of our health care system, or is that the way that Americans eat and live their life. I believe it to be the latter. We eat like crap in this country, we don't really exercise, we work non-stop, and we drive absolutely everywhere. Instead, a lot of Europe eats a heck of a lot better, work less, walk a heck of a lot more, and are just generally a lot more active than us. Maybe if we as a nation took a little bit more personal responsibility for ourselves, rather than looking for handouts at every turn, we would be a stronger nation as a whole.

[Xville]

[QUOTE=ArizonaXUGrad;536207]Cops, roads, firemen, libraries, education, wow you hate a lot of things I like.[/QUOTE

Call me crazy, but I think you should actually have to work hard for what you receive rather than wait for the government to come help. I like my money, and will choose to help those who I deem I want to help or may actually be in need of help, rather than the government telling me who and when i need to help.

[Blue Blooded-05]

He's been average, not unlike the guy in office before him.

I imagine all presidents will be average going forward until both parties can agree to work together for the betterment of the nation instead of spending every waking hour trying to figure out how to destroy the other side.

Personally, I love the fact that nothing gets done. The economy loves when nothing gets done. I admit I didn't vote for Obama either time, but I'd vote him in again, if and only if Boehner comes out of retirement to resume his speakership. Same goes for WJ Clinton (or, should I say "BJ" Clinton, he he he) and Gingrich.

While I am decidedly Republican on economic/tax issues, there's no denying that the market prefers a Democratic president and GOP congress. If Obama can avoid a recession over his final 3.5 quarters, he will join BJ Clinton as the only modern (i.e., post-Teddy Roosevelt) 2-term presidents without a recession.

I know people will say that Republican policies take years to yield positive results, that Reagan's recession was Carter's fault and Obama's stimulus hasn't filtered all the way through the economy yet... blah blah blah... and you're right... but let's not lose focus: Disagreement in DC is as American as white people who hate taxes. Who says they have to get along? I'd argue it's better if they don't.

Bernie Sanders would have more success selling a ham sandwich at a bar mitzvah than selling a GOP congress on his investment tax to pay for free college. As a result, nothing would get passed, and the market would love it. Which in the end, is true irony for a socialist.

[JTG]

Innovation I cannot answer, however, our level of healthcare has been in the past and currently remains low on average. Fact is, healthcare is fantastic in the US if you are rich. It sucks if you aren't.

.

That is absolute bullshit !! Most people with a decent job and health insurance, get very good healthcare. You don't have to be rich. Now granted, if you're poor, it probably does suck, but you do not have to be rich, to get good healthcare. I know plenty of people in jobs making $30,000 to $60,000 that have excellent health care. And by no means is that considered rich. These are government, bank, and insurance employees. Not executives, low level, and mid level employees.

[X-man]

?

Maybe this doesn't end well.

So I guess this thread started about Hillary. I still don't like her. Democrats don't seem to either. I will probably vote for the Amazing Bernie the in the primary.

Glad I could get that out of my system. Carry on.

TL/DR

I'll vote for "the Donald".

[LadyMuskie]

Cops, roads, firemen, libraries, education, wow you hate a lot of things I like.

Here's another problem Sanders has: immature followers/supporters that he refuses to reign in or set straight.

You tell me how well socialism in those areas is working.

Public education, as a whole, is a complete and utter disaster. It's a failure on it's best day and a nuclear disaster on all others. We're ranked behind countries most Americans don't even know exist (which is sort of expected based on the quality of the government-run education.) I live in Cincinnati Public School district and save for a few select, and I do mean select, schools and Walnut Hills High, the options are grim. On my street alone, only one kid is attending the neighborhood school. The rest attend Catholic schools or SCPA. One of my neighbors teaches at the neighborhood school and even she admits it's a nightmare. She doesn't even send her own kid there. I have friends who teach at local school districts, some of which are considered to be "Blue Ribbon" and the things they see on a daily basis are unbelievable. There are high school seniors who can't tell time on an analog clock and who can't write in cursive or sign their name. But standards require that they be passed. Thank God, for the Department of Education!

Infrastructure in this country is a complete disaster as well. Roads are crumbling. Bridges that are well past their prime are not only in use, but here in Cincinnati, they're some of the most used bridges we have. Two words: Flint. Michigan. Good thing the government was in charge of that!

Libraries are hardly used, yet we're propping them up with our tax dollars because people actually believed that in the suburbs of Cincinnati, for example, people were walking to the libraries to use the computers. The last two times I went to the library, I could count on one hand the number of people inside the library. As a concept I have no problem with a library, but as a taxpayer I like to see my dollars going to useful things that ACTUALLY WORK!

Police and Fire constantly complain they're understaffed and they are because money that should be allotted to them is being funneled to other areas. Why do you think police and fire are unionized? It's not because they thought the government loved unions, I can tell you that. The government really does a great job there as well! Thanks goodness they're in charge.

Ever deal with a relative who's on Medicaid? If you think private insurance is a nightmare, try working with Medicaid. What's worse is that there are some elderly people who can't deal with it by themselves. No wonder they're thrown into horrendous nursing homes. medicaid provides the lowest level of care available to most of the people on it. There are lawyers who specialize in Medicaid and Medicare because it's such a boondoggle and so incredibly difficult to understand, and yet you want the entire population of the United States to be under such care? No thanks. I've seen how that works. To say it's not good is like saying the Titanic had a little leak.

Social Security is a joke. Why even go into it? I'd have to work until I'm 88 to receive the benefits I've paid into the system. Glad the government was given control of that!

Prisons are government run and are notoriously corrupt and awful.

Governments weren't even handling their own retirement funds for their employees properly, but for some reason we think they would do a better job for the whole country.

The IRS has had nothing but problems. Last year they actually had a media release saying they were understaffed and overworked and that basically returns would go unchecked. Another well-run government agency.

The EPA is a mess.

It goes on and on and on.

[X-man]

I don't know how anyone can say he has been good. He has expanded medicaid, something that will eventually bankrupt the states if not fixed, racial tensions are at an all time high, he hasn't done anything to financially reform the country, Russia has become his daddy, he withdrew too quickly from Iraq which helped for isis to gain steam. I could go on and on.

Wow, just wow. You blame Obama for the racial tension? empowering ISIS, which never would have gotten any traction if we hadn't invaded Iraq under false pretenses? trying but failing to financially reform the country when he failed because of Republican opposition? creating a problem by expanding access to healthcare for the poor? My God, man, what planet do you live on?

[SemajParlor]

Wow, just wow. You blame Obama for the racial tension? empowering ISIS, which never would have gotten any traction if we hadn't invaded Iraq under false pretenses? trying but failing to financially reform the country when he failed because of Republican opposition? creating a problem by expanding access to healthcare for the poor? My God, man, what planet do you live on?


I distinctly remember people saying (hey, I may even get bored and look up on Xavier Hoops) when Obama beat Romney that the stock market will plummet. Turns out he ended up being one of the best Presidents in history for the market. I remember when people thought Romney not winning would be a crushing blow towards creating jobs. Turns out 4 years later the unemployment rate is at 4.6%.

People believe what they want to believe.

[Xville]

Wow, just wow. You blame Obama for the racial tension? empowering ISIS, which never would have gotten any traction if we hadn't invaded Iraq under false pretenses? trying but failing to financially reform the country when he failed because of Republican opposition? creating a problem by expanding access to healthcare for the poor? My God, man, what planet do you live on?

Ssee what I said later about racial tension. I blame him for contributing to the problem such as making statements about the Martin case and the Ferguson issue before the facts were even laid out. He fanned the flames even more during each occurrence. Yes isis may not have been empowered, but then there would be another radical group in power and to not think that is completely absurd. The middle east is a war zone and once we were in it, we should have stayed in it, not prematurely walking away when everyone with half a brain knew there were issues arising there.

Regarding healthcare, I'm not even going there. It's really a matter of where you are in life...if you are really poor it's freaking great, if you make more than about 30k a year and are healthy, it sucks. Sorry but I don't think I should have to pay for everyone's health care...especially for those that eat crap food, smoke, drink a ton, don't exercise etc. Further, small businesses are paying higher premiums, tell me how that is good for the country? Also I believe about 11 million signed up for obamacare, that's great except about 5 million lost their insurance..eventually I'm sure they found it but at higher premiums.

Tell me what exactly did obamacare fix? About 4 percent got insurance while the rest had to pay higher premiums...awesome.

[paulxu]

I'll bet the streetcar goes into this discussion somewhere. Just a matter of time.

[LadyMuskie]

I distinctly remember people saying (hey, I may even get bored and look up on Xavier Hoops) when Obama beat Romney that the stock market will plummet. Turns out he ended up being one of the best Presidents in history for the market. I remember when people thought Romney not winning would be a crushing blow towards creating jobs. Turns out 4 years later the unemployment rate is at 4.6%.

People believe what they want to believe.

But, we all know that unemployment number isn't accurate. It never has been because of the way they choose (and have always chosen) to track unemployment. Realistically, it's closer to 10-12%.

[SemajParlor]

But, we all know that unemployment number isn't accurate. It never has been because of the way they choose (and have always chosen) to track unemployment. Realistically, it's closer to 10-12%.

Absolutely. But if we continually use this albeit, inaccurate metric, it's fair to note that the "rate" has been cut in half since he began his term.

The economy is better now than it was 8 years ago. I think we can all agree on that.

Then again, I don't know what the hell some people believe.

[ArizonaXUGrad]

So...you must not know anyone who has had an immediate family member with a major illness. I do, an acquaintance with a child who had cancer and is now in remission. He kept it quiet until it all was done, and his debt horror story is absolutely crazy.

It's his story and others like it that moved me solidly to the single-payer column. The fact that most of us are one big sickness/accident away from being bankrupt. It hit closer because our compensations and healthcare levels are similar. Nobody should be that close to the brink just because of a major illness.

When you get sick, your only question should be how to get well. Nowhere should money ever enter into the equation.


That is absolute bullshit !! Most people with a decent job and health insurance, get very good healthcare. You don't have to be rich. Now granted, if you're poor, it probably does suck, but you do not have to be rich, to get good healthcare. I know plenty of people in jobs making $30,000 to $60,000 that have excellent health care. And by no means is that considered rich. These are government, bank, and insurance employees. Not executives, low level, and mid level employees.

[ArizonaXUGrad]

So if you don't deem someone worthy or if many like you don't seem someone worthy, that individual just goes hungry and dies, gets sick and dies, etc? Your statement comes off as selfish.


Call me crazy, but I think you should actually have to work hard for what you receive rather than wait for the government to come help. I like my money, and will choose to help those who I deem I want to help or may actually be in need of help, rather than the government telling me who and when i need to help.

[ArizonaXUGrad]

What is the solution? Why don't we make everything for-profit...everyone can pay for their own schooling, fire protection, police protection, roads. Who is going to be able to afford that. Whose incomes are going to be least affected by those costs? Why not just dump the EPA in there as well? LA, you are going to end up with serfdom/fiefdom with a vast population unable to afford education working for those who can, crumbling roads/high crime/burnt out in poor areas unable to afford those protections, all in a country dirty from unabated corporate pollution. Good lord, basically we all saw in Elysium with Matt Damon.

With that policy, if you ran for President I would cheer that I was born in Europe which gives me an in-road to permanent move.

Not denying governmental failures, but I am also not ready to toss out the baby with the bathwater.


Here's another problem Sanders has: immature followers/supporters that he refuses to reign in or set straight.

You tell me how well socialism in those areas is working.

Public education, as a whole, is a complete and utter disaster. It's a failure on it's best day and a nuclear disaster on all others. We're ranked behind countries most Americans don't even know exist (which is sort of expected based on the quality of the government-run education.) I live in Cincinnati Public School district and save for a few select, and I do mean select, schools and Walnut Hills High, the options are grim. On my street alone, only one kid is attending the neighborhood school. The rest attend Catholic schools or SCPA. One of my neighbors teaches at the neighborhood school and even she admits it's a nightmare. She doesn't even send her own kid there. I have friends who teach at local school districts, some of which are considered to be "Blue Ribbon" and the things they see on a daily basis are unbelievable. There are high school seniors who can't tell time on an analog clock and who can't write in cursive or sign their name. But standards require that they be passed. Thank God, for the Department of Education!

Infrastructure in this country is a complete disaster as well. Roads are crumbling. Bridges that are well past their prime are not only in use, but here in Cincinnati, they're some of the most used bridges we have. Two words: Flint. Michigan. Good thing the government was in charge of that!

Libraries are hardly used, yet we're propping them up with our tax dollars because people actually believed that in the suburbs of Cincinnati, for example, people were walking to the libraries to use the computers. The last two times I went to the library, I could count on one hand the number of people inside the library. As a concept I have no problem with a library, but as a taxpayer I like to see my dollars going to useful things that ACTUALLY WORK!

Police and Fire constantly complain they're understaffed and they are because money that should be allotted to them is being funneled to other areas. Why do you think police and fire are unionized? It's not because they thought the government loved unions, I can tell you that. The government really does a great job there as well! Thanks goodness they're in charge.

Ever deal with a relative who's on Medicaid? If you think private insurance is a nightmare, try working with Medicaid. What's worse is that there are some elderly people who can't deal with it by themselves. No wonder they're thrown into horrendous nursing homes. medicaid provides the lowest level of care available to most of the people on it. There are lawyers who specialize in Medicaid and Medicare because it's such a boondoggle and so incredibly difficult to understand, and yet you want the entire population of the United States to be under such care? No thanks. I've seen how that works. To say it's not good is like saying the Titanic had a little leak.

Social Security is a joke. Why even go into it? I'd have to work until I'm 88 to receive the benefits I've paid into the system. Glad the government was given control of that!

Prisons are government run and are notoriously corrupt and awful.

Governments weren't even handling their own retirement funds for their employees properly, but for some reason we think they would do a better job for the whole country.

The IRS has had nothing but problems. Last year they actually had a media release saying they were understaffed and overworked and that basically returns would go unchecked. Another well-run government agency.

The EPA is a mess.

It goes on and on and on.

[X-man]

But, we all know that unemployment number isn't accurate. It never has been because of the way they choose (and have always chosen) to track unemployment. Realistically, it's closer to 10-12%.

It is currently less than 10% when you include both the underemployed and the discouraged workers. But of course it was also MUCH higher than the official rate of 10% when the economy was in the tank in 2010. So with the correct measurement, the reduction under Obama is even larger than what the official rate reduction shows.

[LadyMuskie]

What is the solution? Why don't we make everything for-profit...everyone can pay for their own schooling, fire protection, police protection, roads. Who is going to be able to afford that. Whose incomes are going to be least affected by those costs? Why not just dump the EPA in there as well? LA, you are going to end up with serfdom/fiefdom with a vast population unable to afford education working for those who can, crumbling roads/high crime/burnt out in poor areas unable to afford those protections, all in a country dirty from unabated corporate pollution. Good lord, basically we all saw in Elysium with Matt Damon.

With that policy, if you ran for President I would cheer that I was born in Europe which gives me an in-road to permanent move.

Not denying governmental failures, but I am also not ready to toss out the baby with the bathwater.

Just about everything you've written in this thread is nonsense and illustrates EVERYTHING that is wrong with Sanders and his followers. Lots of talk but no plan. Lots of complaints, but no solutions. Lots of attacks, but no reality.

I typed out a long response showing how nonsensical this all is (who said to privatize everything?) and then realized that anyone who gets so hysterical and uses fictional movies (I mean, really? That's the best you can do? You can't even give real examples?) to try to prove a point isn't worth debating. You offer no solutions and you don't really acknowledge there are problems because you can't. If you did, you'd have to acknowledge how flawed and insane the idea of giving the government more to do really is. You don't want to throw the baby out with the bathwater? So, give the government more to do! Keep piling on, they'll get better at it eventually. Maybe. We hope. Yeah, that's the answer.

Bernie has done a great job of brainwashing you. You really believe that this is a capable philosophy. It hasn't worked anywhere else, but it will work here. . . because it's already working on a smaller scale so well. Ignorance is bliss.

Have fun voting! I look forward to my vote canceling out yours should Bernie be the democratic nominee.

[Xville]

So if you don't deem someone worthy or if many like you don't seem someone worthy, that individual just goes hungry and dies, gets sick and dies, etc? Your statement comes off as selfish.

Like I said it should be my choice on who to help with the money that I make. Selfish? Maybe, but that should be my choice. I think I should decide, rather than the government who wastes an ungodly amount of money every single day.

[vee4xu]

Good God, I've been voting for 40 years and have never seen a more pathetic slate of candidates across the board as are in this field. I'm likely to write in a name. Maybe Pope Francis, or Thad Matta, or Paul Ruebens.

If you wrote in a name, who'd you write in? Get creative.

[JEHARDI]

Hit the nail on the head, everything the Gov't is involved in is poorly managed with excessive waste.


Here's another problem Sanders has: immature followers/supporters that he refuses to reign in or set straight.

You tell me how well socialism in those areas is working.

Public education, as a whole, is a complete and utter disaster. It's a failure on it's best day and a nuclear disaster on all others. We're ranked behind countries most Americans don't even know exist (which is sort of expected based on the quality of the government-run education.) I live in Cincinnati Public School district and save for a few select, and I do mean select, schools and Walnut Hills High, the options are grim. On my street alone, only one kid is attending the neighborhood school. The rest attend Catholic schools or SCPA. One of my neighbors teaches at the neighborhood school and even she admits it's a nightmare. She doesn't even send her own kid there. I have friends who teach at local school districts, some of which are considered to be "Blue Ribbon" and the things they see on a daily basis are unbelievable. There are high school seniors who can't tell time on an analog clock and who can't write in cursive or sign their name. But standards require that they be passed. Thank God, for the Department of Education!

Infrastructure in this country is a complete disaster as well. Roads are crumbling. Bridges that are well past their prime are not only in use, but here in Cincinnati, they're some of the most used bridges we have. Two words: Flint. Michigan. Good thing the government was in charge of that!

Libraries are hardly used, yet we're propping them up with our tax dollars because people actually believed that in the suburbs of Cincinnati, for example, people were walking to the libraries to use the computers. The last two times I went to the library, I could count on one hand the number of people inside the library. As a concept I have no problem with a library, but as a taxpayer I like to see my dollars going to useful things that ACTUALLY WORK!

Police and Fire constantly complain they're understaffed and they are because money that should be allotted to them is being funneled to other areas. Why do you think police and fire are unionized? It's not because they thought the government loved unions, I can tell you that. The government really does a great job there as well! Thanks goodness they're in charge.

Ever deal with a relative who's on Medicaid? If you think private insurance is a nightmare, try working with Medicaid. What's worse is that there are some elderly people who can't deal with it by themselves. No wonder they're thrown into horrendous nursing homes. medicaid provides the lowest level of care available to most of the people on it. There are lawyers who specialize in Medicaid and Medicare because it's such a boondoggle and so incredibly difficult to understand, and yet you want the entire population of the United States to be under such care? No thanks. I've seen how that works. To say it's not good is like saying the Titanic had a little leak.

Social Security is a joke. Why even go into it? I'd have to work until I'm 88 to receive the benefits I've paid into the system. Glad the government was given control of that!

Prisons are government run and are notoriously corrupt and awful.

Governments weren't even handling their own retirement funds for their employees properly, but for some reason we think they would do a better job for the whole country.

The IRS has had nothing but problems. Last year they actually had a media release saying they were understaffed and overworked and that basically returns would go unchecked. Another well-run government agency.

The EPA is a mess.

It goes on and on and on.

[GoMuskies]

If you wrote in a name, who'd you write in?


Lady Muskie

[JEHARDI]

Lady Muskie

I will 2nd that!

[bjf123]

It is currently less than 10% when you include both the underemployed and the discouraged workers. But of course it was also MUCH higher than the official rate of 10% when the economy was in the tank in 2010. So with the correct measurement, the reduction under Obama is even larger than what the official rate reduction shows.

Look up the workforce participation rate. Is the lowest it's been since Jimmy Carter. The lowest before that was in the Great Depression. More people are unemployed or underemployed than at any time in our nation's history. I believe we also have more people on food stamps than ever before. Yep. Obama's economy is doing great.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[waggy]

Look up the workforce participation rate. Is the lowest it's been since Jimmy Carter. The lowest before that was in the Great Depression. More people are unemployed or underemployed than at any time in our nation's history. I believe we also have more people on food stamps than ever before. Yep. Obama's economy is doing great.




QFT.

Obama's economy is not just shitty, it's fucking shitty.

The government doesn't need more fucking money. It needs to get less money. It's spending more money than it gets. Regardless of whatever party is in power, this will not stop until it's either too late, or Americans join together and make it stop. There are too many idiot government employees that either outright screw things up, or are generally sucky at their jobs, and this makes the government inefficient.

[Lloyd Braun]

QFT.

Obama's economy is not just shitty, it's fucking shitty.

The government doesn't need more fucking money. It needs to get less money. It's spending more money than it gets. Regardless of whatever party is in power, this will not stop until it's either too late, or Americans join together and make it stop. There are too many idiot government employees that either outright screw things up, or are generally sucky at their jobs, and this makes the government inefficient.

For the record I had the UNDER (O/U 4.5) on when waggy would chime in, dropping f-bombs like the gangsta he is. Turns out I was way off.

[Michigan Muskie]

If you wrote in a name, who'd you write in? Get creative.

Montgomery Brewster

[chico]

Good God, I've been voting for 40 years and have never seen a more pathetic slate of candidates across the board as are in this field. I'm likely to write in a name. Maybe Pope Francis, or Thad Matta, or Paul Ruebens.

If you wrote in a name, who'd you write in? Get creative.

_LH. Imagine Putin trying to negotiate with him.

Either him or Nathan Thurm.

[bigdiggins]

Good God, I've been voting for 40 years and have never seen a more pathetic slate of candidates across the board as are in this field. I'm likely to write in a name. Maybe Pope Francis, or Thad Matta, or Paul Ruebens.

If you wrote in a name, who'd you write in? Get creative.

Snipe, with ArizonaXUGRAD as the VP.

[X-man]

Look up the workforce participation rate. Is the lowest it's been since Jimmy Carter. The lowest before that was in the Great Depression. More people are unemployed or underemployed than at any time in our nation's history. I believe we also have more people on food stamps than ever before. Yep. Obama's economy is doing great.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
It may surprise you to learn that the age distribution has a lot to do with the labor force participation rate. A lot of people are hitting retirement age (ever heard of the baby boomers?) and guess what...they are retiring and dropping out of the labor force. But even your assertion is wrong or at least misleading (see this link for the monthly data going back to 1948: https://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/data/CIVPART.txt). And of course it's not the numbers of underemployed or unemployed that matter, but rather the percentages of the labor force that matters. The population is growing. Your comment makes about as much sense as saying that there are more people employed under Obama than in our nation's history. Don't jump into this conversation unless you know what you are talking about.

[ArizonaXUGrad]

No way, I would be powerless, but would have more verbal media gaffes than Biden in four years guaranteed.


Snipe, with ArizonaXUGRAD as the VP.

[Emp]

There are only two candidates with advanced federal or state executive skills who are electable in the head to head race......Clinton and Kacich. I d be ok with either.

Getting gassed about Sanders is pointless, he can't remotely win the nomination. Eventually Trump will insult or blow off everyone and self immolate.

Rubio is surprisingly bizzare for someone I would expect to be young and progressive. Cruz scareth the shit outta me.

[Pete Delkus]

"Vote Early Vote Bernie" sign next to the coffee stirrers at Xavier Campus...

Starbucks & Xavier in a war against women!

"We want free Pikes, and when do we want them!!!!!"


NOW!

[Strange Brew]

[QUOTE=Emp;536764]Rubio is surprisingly bizzare for someone I would expect to be young and progressive.[\QUOTE]


"Contradictions do not exist. Whenever you think that you are facing a contradiction, check your premises. You will find that one of them is wrong." Rand