Biggest Jump During Their Time at X?

[Muskie]

See Poll.

[Masterofreality]

I still have to say Jason Love. When he first showed up, he was slow, with bad hands and had no moves. He willed himself into a Great Career at X and a European Pro career. Never seen a better leap than that.

[XMuskieFTW]

This was tough. I was between J Love and Farr, but ultimately chose Farr due to the fact that he completely changed the type of player he is on the offensive end. He came in as a stretch 4 who could shoot the three, and when that didn't work, he bought completely into the system and became a monster rebounder and post player. I could have never imagined this post play from him two years ago.

[SemajParlor]

Wasn't Travis a 2 year player?

[Muskie]

Wasn't Travis a 2 year player?

He was, but someone included him in another thread, so I lumped him in. I've fixed it.

[xuwin]

Anthony Myles was only a 2 year player and his stats were about the same both years.

[ballyhoohoo]

Is this the biggest jump off of one foot?

[D-West & PO-Z]

I went with Farr over Love/Taylor/Raymond and one of the biggest reason I did so was Farr's stats have jumped in his senior year just as much if not more than those guys and he is doing that in far fewer mins than those guys.

Farr is currently averaging 21.4 mins/game.
BJ was 30.3 his senior yr
Taylor 31.7
Love 27.8.

Could you imagine Farr's numbers with another 6-10 mins/game?

[GoMuskies]

Anthony Myles was only a 2 year player and his stats were about the same both years.

How about biggest jump from the rest of his career to the last game of his career when he was completely using the Duke big men until...well, let's not talk about it.

[Muskie]

How about biggest jump from the rest of his career to the last game of his career when he was completely using the Duke big men until...well, let's not talk about it.

Biggest moment in X coaching history? (Not pulling Myles with those 2 fouls??)

[paulxu]

You guys have succeeded in wrecking the beginning of my week by causing me to remember that game.

Thanks for that.

The next thing you know I'll be reading about Cahill.

[Mrs. Garrett]

None of the other guys have had these monster double-double games that Farr has had. At least that I can recall. Especially in a year that was supposed to be J. Reynolds breakout year. It's really nice not to see him in love with the 3. That's probably what really helped him with his rebounding, just being around the basket on O. Kudos to the coaching staff for getting through to him and to James for listening.

[MHettel]

Josh Duncan became a man as a senior. Don't have numbers, but I recall a dominance. He was a bit more productive than Farr as a Junior.

[Snipe]

T Hill came to X with limited offensive skilz and left a lottery pick. I still voted for Big Game James though.

Even off the bench I believe he is our MVP

[JTG]

Farr, and it's not really close because of the competition he's doing it against. These aren't MCC players, or an East Nowhere non-con schedule.

[joe titan]

Without doubt Tyrone Hill; as FR he was an offensive liability with no hands to receive even the most direct pass and even worse footwork resulting in frequent TOs. As Soph he was marginally better b/c he learned to avoid fouls allowing better minutes. Rebounding picked up a bit and at least we could throw him the ball once in awhile but no appreciable productivity.

Then out of the blue as JR, he morphed into a monster force with solid game on consistent basis. Was scoring on the blocks and fierce on the boards. Then as SR took it to another level avg double/double and winds up lottery pick.

I do not hesitate to marvel at James Farr or Jason Love's careers, but nobody traveled further than Tyrone Hill. Lastly, Derrick Brown merits more than passing mention. He was red-shirted b/c he lacked in every category but through his time developed to be a prime player; his "early" departure relinquished every XU fan to wander "what if" he played his entire eligibility.

[gladdenguy]

I am absolutely amazed by Farr this year. Had to vote for him. His first two years his feet were stuck in quick sand and offensively with his back to the basket he was a non factor. He was an average 15 foot make and was good for a couple boards.

This year he is one of the best rebounders in the country and against Seton Hall and Marquette he has put the team on his back offensively. Just incredible.

Obviously Love is my #2 and Raymond my #3.

As for Anthony Myles, it was amazing that Chalmers, Finn, and Myles played their absolute best games of their career in the postseason of 04. Sato was consistently good and Cole, Doellman, and Cage were pretty consistently good role players. It was just amazing how clutch those 3 were and it was the main reason that team was one of the best in college basketball at the end of the year.

[GoMuskies]

Hey Snipe, did those Final 5 shirts come in yet?

[Muskie]

Without doubt Tyrone Hill; as FR he was an offensive liability with no hands to receive even the most direct pass and even worse footwork resulting in frequent TOs. As Soph he was marginally better b/c he learned to avoid fouls allowing better minutes. Rebounding picked up a bit and at least we could throw him the ball once in awhile but no appreciable productivity.

Then out of the blue as JR, he morphed into a monster force with solid game on consistent basis. Was scoring on the blocks and fierce on the boards. Then as SR took it to another level avg double/double and winds up lottery pick.

I do not hesitate to marvel at James Farr or Jason Love's careers, but nobody traveled further than Tyrone Hill. Lastly, Derrick Brown merits more than passing mention. He was red-shirted b/c he lacked in every category but through his time developed to be a prime player; his "early" departure relinquished every XU fan to wander "what if" he played his entire eligibility.

I should have put T Hill in.

[scoscox]

If we're going the Tyrone Hill route, I'd say David West had a pretty huge jump. Less than no hype coming in and by his sophomore he's putting up 17 and 10 a game. He came out of nowhere and just destroyed collegiate basketball three years running. He improved his scoring tremendously from freshman to sophomore years and beyond. Pretty similar to Tyrone Hill.

[D-West & PO-Z]

If we're going the Tyrone Hill route, I'd say David West had a pretty huge jump. Less than no hype coming in and by his sophomore he's putting up 17 and 10 a game. He came out of nowhere and just destroyed collegiate basketball three years running. He improved his scoring tremendously from freshman to sophomore years and beyond. Pretty similar to Tyrone Hill.

I think the biggest point of the poll was to more speak to those guys that after at least their first 2 years people were really questioning their ability to contribute positively to XU's bball team.

West made huge strides but he was conference player of the year as a soph.

[GoMuskies]

David West was awesome his freshman year, though.

[X Factor]

How about biggest jump from the rest of his career to the last game of his career when he was completely using the Duke big men until...well, let's not talk about it.


Or Justin Cage vs OSU in the second round...:dead:

25 points on 8-8 from the field, including 3-3 from three. 6 rebounds.

[D-West & PO-Z]

Tyrone Hill was before my time so I only have the stats to look back on but he looked like a pretty huge contributor right away.

He averaged no less than 28 mins/game at any point at XU and right away averaged 9pts and 8 rebounds.

He averaged a double double each of the next 3 years.

Just based on that I couldnt vote for him on this. People may be interpreting this poll differently from me though.

[XUGRAD80]

Can't leave out David Grant either. X was basically the only school that recruited him.....he became a lottery pick, didn't he? Must say that he was productive every year though. We have been blessed to watch many young men come in as raw recruits,with more potential than accolades, and watch them develop into great players and great young men......THAT is the XAVIER way.

Jason Love probably improved more in the LAST year than any other player I have ever seen.

[GoMuskies]

Can't leave out David Grant either.


Is that Brian Grant's brother?

[scoscox]

Yea, I mean Tyrone was a pretty productive freshman and as a sophomore was getting about 16 and 10 a game. Grant, West and Hill were all perfect examples of 4 year guys. The way West dominated college night in and night out, no player we've had has ever come close to since. All these guys we're talking about, Myles, Love, etc. were solid in the post, but they couldn't hold a candle to any of those three guys. Watching West was incredible. What Farr just did against Seton Hall was a slightly above average game for DWest. He was doing that EVERY GAME no matter what over a three year span. Just imagining that now is incredible. Man, I miss that guy.

My money is on BJ Raymond or Jimmy Farr in this one though. Some of these guys (Kenny Frease, Reggie Butler, Keith Jackson, Dee Davis, Travis Taylor) had pretty forgettable careers and I wouldn't example say they made big jumps in their careers.

[scoscox]

Heck, I was disappointed by those guys' careers.

[scoscox]

How about Lionel Chalmers or Tu Holloway?

[Masterofreality]

How about Lionel Chalmers or Tu Holloway?

Ahhhhh, they were both pretty damn good from the start.

[XUMIOH12]

why is Kenny Frease on this list? I feel like he always played about the same, just got more minutes his last 2 years.

[XUMIOH12]

i went with Farr in a close one over Love.

[Xville]

I don't understand the Frease inclusion either...with as much hype as he had coming in, the guy was a major disappointment. He was fine his Junior and Senior years, but nothing to write home about in my opinion. He did have a really good last 10 games, i will say that...so maybe if that were the case sure...those last ten games though is what he should have been his entire last two years.

[nuts4xu]

Is that Brian Grant's brother?

David Grant played on the Bengals Super Bowl XXIII squad, and a total of six years for the Bengals.

I don't think he ever played basketball for X, but someone can correct me if I am wrong.

[ammtd34]

I don't understand the Frease inclusion either...with as much hype as he had coming in, the guy was a major disappointment. He was fine his Junior and Senior years, but nothing to write home about in my opinion. He did have a really good last 10 games, i will say that...so maybe if that were the case sure...those last ten games though is what he should have been his entire last two years.

I agree overall, but the last 10 games of his career were great. He averaged 14.5 and 7.2 when the needed him to.

[XUMIOH12]

I agree overall, but the last 10 games of his career were great. He averaged 14.5 and 7.2 when the needed him to.

right. but you cant include him on the list just because of his last several games. Otherwise you would have to include a lot of other players because of both their first 10 games and last 10 games

[XUFan09]

Farr was good for a solid portion of sophomore year, only losing minutes later in the season as Jalen improved during his freshman season. I still voted for him, though, because he had to reinvent himself from how he played the game sophomore year, and he got much better defensively over the next two years.

[XUMIOH12]

Farr was good for a solid portion of sophomore year, only losing minutes later in the season as Jalen improved during his freshman season. I still voted for him, though, because he had to reinvent himself from how he played the game sophomore year, and he got much better defensively over the next two years.

yeah Farr had a nice flash of shooting the first half of that season, but that was about it for that year.

[ammtd34]

right. but you cant include him on the list just because of his last several games. Otherwise you would have to include a lot of other players because of both their first 10 games and last 10 games

I agree. I was just making a general comment that, while Frease's career was disappointing, he was really good for 10 games.

[XUFan09]

Player X

Freshman: 82.9 ORating, 26.1% Usage Rate
Sophomore: 95.8 ORating, 18.6% Usage Rate
Junior: 112.2 ORating, 20.9% Usage Rate
Senior: 98.3 ORating, 24.1% Usage Rate





That's Kenny Frease. The dip in the offensive rating senior year is in significant part due to receiving double-teams for the first time in college career (a mark of his improvement, really), and not handling it well for the first part of the season. He had a turnover rate around 34% that he eventually cut down to 18.9%. His defense also improved significantly over four years and even just between junior and senior year. Now, I didn't vote for him and didn't really consider him in my final few, but his inclusion on this poll is justified. People just had so much hate/disappointment/frustration with him over his career that they didn't always see his improvement.

[XUMIOH12]

I agree. I was just making a general comment that, while Frease's career was disappointing, he was really good for 10 games.

yeah i knew what you were saying. Would have been nice if he played like that for an entire year.

[XUMIOH12]

Player X

Freshman: 82.9 ORating, 26.1% Usage Rate
Sophomore: 95.8 ORating, 18.6% Usage Rate
Junior: 112.2 ORating, 20.9% Usage Rate
Senior: 98.3 ORating, 24.1% Usage Rate





That's Kenny Frease. The dip in the offensive rating senior year is in significant part due to receiving double-teams for the first time in college career (a mark of his improvement, really), and not handling it well for the first part of the season. He had a turnover rate around 34% that he eventually cut down to 18.9%. His defense also improved significantly over four years and even just between junior and senior year. Now, I didn't vote for him and didn't really consider him in my final few, but his inclusion on this poll is justified. People just had so much hate/disappointment/frustration with him over his career that they didn't always see his improvement.

part of why i wouldnt consider him here is because i always thought he was a good player, just never had it mentally most of the time. If anything, i would have like to seen him get the ball more throughout his career.

For the most part, i dont like using ratings like that for college players because they arent as telling as they are when used in the NBA. If a college player is that good he will dominate regardless.

[D-West & PO-Z]

Ahhhhh, they were both pretty damn good from the start.

Yeah. Chalmers has to get the award though of biggest turnaround in legacy left in shortest period of time.

In a matter of 2-3 months that guy went from being a frustrating player that would mostly be forgotten about to Xavier legend.

[D-West & PO-Z]

Player X

Freshman: 82.9 ORating, 26.1% Usage Rate
Sophomore: 95.8 ORating, 18.6% Usage Rate
Junior: 112.2 ORating, 20.9% Usage Rate
Senior: 98.3 ORating, 24.1% Usage Rate





That's Kenny Frease. The dip in the offensive rating senior year is in significant part due to receiving double-teams for the first time in college career (a mark of his improvement, really), and not handling it well for the first part of the season. He had a turnover rate around 34% that he eventually cut down to 18.9%. His defense also improved significantly over four years and even just between junior and senior year. Now, I didn't vote for him and didn't really consider him in my final few, but his inclusion on this poll is justified. People just had so much hate/disappointment/frustration with him over his career that they didn't always see his improvement.

Yeah Frease definitely belongs in this pool. Sure he came in with a lot of hype but after 2 years people were calling him a complete bum. He had a pretty solid last 2 years but because he never lived up to his pre Xavier hype people look completely down on him.

[muskiefan82]

Biggest Jump during their time at X? Coach Mack.

[D-West & PO-Z]

Biggest Jump during their time at X? Coach Mack.

He went to Sweet 16 the first year!

[muskiefan82]

He went to Sweet 16 the first year!

Granted; however, this year he has led this team to a prominent place in the college basketball world before March and THAT is what I am excited about.

[D-West & PO-Z]

Granted; however, this year he has led this team to a prominent place in the college basketball world before March and THAT is what I am excited about.

Yeah me too. I was just messin' with you.

[drudy23]

Jason Love.

[toledodan]

Jason Love.

bingo

[kane79]

Stan Burrell deserves some love on this thread. Completely changed his game while here. Came in as a scorer out of high school. Realized he was more useful as a top defender and turned himself into a lock down defender who would shut down every teams top scorer.

[XUFan09]

part of why i wouldnt consider him here is because i always thought he was a good player, just never had it mentally most of the time. If anything, i would have like to seen him get the ball more throughout his career.

For the most part, i dont like using ratings like that for college players because they arent as telling as they are when used in the NBA. If a college player is that good he will dominate regardless.
The mental game is huge, though. If we were bracketing that, we could claim that Jeff Robinson was a really good player. When he was mentally locked in and assertive, he was.

These ratings still say a lot about college players on the offensive end, actually. They're a nice composite of shooting, drawing fouls (and making the free throws), offensive rebounding, and getting assists. Farr's rating, for example, is 28 points better than last year (and at a higher usage rate), and that huge jump can easily be seen on the court.

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

[XUGRAD80]

Is that Brian Grant's brother?

Oops! Brain fart.


In my defense, there was a David Grant thst I knew during my years at X. Sometimes my part-timers kicks in.

[TUclutch]

Yeah. Chalmers has to get the award though of biggest turnaround in legacy left in shortest period of time.

In a matter of 2-3 months that guy went from being a frustrating player that would mostly be forgotten about to Xavier legend.

I agree with this. Chalmer isn't a top 3 player at Xavier, but he's probably in the top 3 guys you first think about. He is for me. The first three guys I think about when thinking of Xavier basketball and big moments/games/legacy Im thinkin West, Chalmers, and Holloway. Most would include Byron Larkin at 1 or 2, but im only 25, so I can't include someone I never saw play.

[xu82]

why is Kenny Frease on this list? I feel like he always played about the same, just got more minutes his last 2 years.

Didn't Kenny dunk once as a senior? That was a pretty big jump, you know, for him....

[xu82]

Stan Burrell deserves some love on this thread. Completely changed his game while here. Came in as a scorer out of high school. Realized he was more useful as a top defender and turned himself into a lock down defender who would shut down every teams top scorer.

I was going to mention Stan as the biggest evolution. He was always good, but changed what he was good at.

[MauriceX]

Josh Duncan became a man as a senior. Don't have numbers, but I recall a dominance. He was a bit more productive than Farr as a Junior.

I voted for Jason Love, but had Duncan been a part of the poll, I would have voted for him instead. He was an absolute beast his senior year.

I would also like to take this opportunity to point out that most of the people in this poll are big men. A lot of people get down on big men when they don't make a huge impact immediately. This is a perfect example that it usually takes big men a lot longer to develop. They likely always dominated in high school due to their height, and have to learn a brand new skill set to be good when playing against others their size in college.

This also makes it amazing how productive O'Mara has been in two seasons and Gates so far this season. The future of our post play is looking very very strong.

[chico]

I think who you vote for depends on what the expectations were coming in. Frease did improve, but he was pretty highly regarded when he came here. Same with Duncan - UK was after him. They were starters, or at least contributors, from the day they stepped on the floor. I'm more in the school that goes with Love, Farr and Raymond. Those guys, though good recruits, were not highly sought after, nor did they show much in their first couple years. They progressed and by the time they were juniors and seniors were a major part of the team. That's the kind of guy I'm thinking of.

[drudy23]

Stan Burrell deserves some love on this thread. Completely changed his game while here. Came in as a scorer out of high school. Realized he was more useful as a top defender and turned himself into a lock down defender who would shut down every teams top scorer.

Biggest transition? Maybe.

Biggest jump? Nope.

Stan could play as a Freshman.

[UCGRAD4X]

Stan Burrell deserves some love on this thread. Completely changed his game while here. Came in as a scorer out of high school. Realized he was more useful as a top defender and turned himself into a lock down defender who would shut down every teams top scorer.


Biggest transition? Maybe.

Biggest jump? Nope.

Stan could play as a Freshman.

Totally agree that Stan deserves all the love - really selfless play. But doesn't fit the profile of this poll / thread. He was already a pretty good / productive player, but more on the scoring end. That suffered when he dedicated himself to being a lock-down defender - one of the best I've ever seen. It was just what we needed at the time.

True spirit of all-for-one / one-for-all deserving of highest praise...in another thread.

[XUMIOH12]

The mental game is huge, though. If we were bracketing that, we could claim that Jeff Robinson was a really good player. When he was mentally locked in and assertive, he was.

These ratings still say a lot about college players on the offensive end, actually. They're a nice composite of shooting, drawing fouls (and making the free throws), offensive rebounding, and getting assists. Farr's rating, for example, is 28 points better than last year (and at a higher usage rate), and that huge jump can easily be seen on the court.

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

i dont know why people thought Jeff Robinson was a good player. He wasnt a highly regarded recruit and was never good at basketball. He was just tall and athletic.

[UCGRAD4X]

i dont know why people thought Jeff Robinson was a good player. He wasnt a highly regarded recruit and was never good at basketball. He was just tall and athletic.

Exactly - and we hoped that he might develop, over time, into something more...but he didn't. That is the point of this thread.

[XUMIOH12]

Exactly - and we hoped that he might develop, over time, into something more...but he didn't. That is the point of this thread.

no, the point of this thread is talking about the players who did make that jump and developed in to something more.

[GoMuskies]

Robinson's career was painful because he showed flashes of being fantastic. Unfortunately, they were few and far between.

[XUMIOH12]

Robinson's career was painful because he showed flashes of being fantastic. Unfortunately, they were few and far between.

i never really thought it was painful because i wasn't expecting much from him ever, except, after a while, to make a bonehead play. His few great games just seemed like outliers.

[SC in DC]

Nope,not fouling O St when up by 3. Myles #2.

[XUFan09]

i dont know why people thought Jeff Robinson was a good player. He wasnt a highly regarded recruit and was never good at basketball. He was just tall and athletic.
He was actually moderately skilled for his position and graded out well on the defensive end, but he makes my point about how important the mental game is.

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[GoMuskies]

i never really thought it was painful because i wasn't expecting much from him ever, except, after a while, to make a bonehead play. His few great games just seemed like outliers.

After this game (http://scores.espn.go.com/ncb/boxscore?gameId=323182752), I was pretty psyched about Jeff and what all of a sudden looked like a potentially promising (and incredibly surprising) season. A guy can't have a game like that by accident. There was a lot of talent locked away in there somewhere. Too bad it mostly stayed locked away.

[XUMIOH12]

After this game (http://scores.espn.go.com/ncb/boxscore?gameId=323182752), I was pretty psyched about Jeff and what all of a sudden looked like a potentially promising (and incredibly surprising) season. A guy can't have a game like that by accident. There was a lot of talent locked away in there somewhere. Too bad it mostly stayed locked away.

Farr was able to go 0-2 in 1 minute that game lol.

[GoMuskies]

Farr was able to go 0-2 in 1 minute that game lol.

Both threes, too. But he was on a 40 rebounds/40 minutes pace, so some things never change.

[drudy23]

That team was very average.

[scoscox]

They were, but man Butler was awful

[GoMuskies]

They were, but man Butler was awful

No, Butler ended up 27-9 and a 6 seed in the NCAA Tournament.

[XUMIOH12]

Both threes, too. But he was on a 40 rebounds/40 minutes pace, so some things never change.

he just needs to play 40 mpg haha

[XUMIOH12]

That team was very average.

that was the "worst" Xavier team in quite a while.

[MauriceX]

That team was very average.

Wow, it's hard to believe that was only 3 years ago.

[MauriceX]

Is anyone else having the problem where it keeps looking like there is a new post in this thread, but then you click it, and it's just my boring statement from a couple days ago?

Edit: I'm just now figuring out that it's probably from people voting in the poll. Ignore my ignorance.

[xu82]

Is anyone else having the problem where it keeps looking like there is a new post in this thread, but then you click it, and it's just my boring statement from a couple days ago?

Edit: I'm just now figuring out that it's probably from people voting in the poll. Ignore my ignorance.

When someone adds a vote (not necessarily a comment) it gets bumped I think.

Edit: I just finished reading your post. Haha