Scout opinion on X Players

[Masterofreality]

A very close friend of mine, who is also an X classmate of mine, is very good friends with A former well-known Major College Coach who is also the son of a well known and successful Major College Coach. While he is basically retired now, he does some "free agent" scouting for various NBA teams and they will consult with him for his opinions. This coach/scout was at the X-Marquette game yesterday and he was also at some of the Xavier pre-season practices because he knows CMack from way back.

My buddy e-mailed me The scout's opinions of some X players.:

Scouted X/Marqt. Also came down to X this past summer and worked with Chris on practices and strategy. He knows X.

Sumner. One of the fastest college players he's ever seen.
Bluette. Really solid
Reynolds. One night he brings it, takes the next night off.
Farr. Nice college player, not quite an NBA product.

Interesting.

[bobbiemcgee]

I'm still amazed at Sumner's abilities. When he does that "shake and bake" and then just blows by the opposition it's just crazy good. He left Cheatam holding his jock yesterday. You hear "great 1st step", this guy has great 1st, 2nd, 3rd etc., he's GONE! Hope he sticks around another year or two.
Nobody covers him one on one.

[Chester Copperpot]

I feel that assessment is pretty spot on for all four players. When you see Sumner live, he is really agile with the ball. TB looks like he isnt putting a lot of effort forth on the floor but its probably that he is in control...much like Harrison Barnes used to play.

[Xville]

The scout came away with exactly how we see these guys. Sumner is the only one who is going to the nba in my opinion. Bluiett doesn't have a position there..not athletic enough for a 2 and not tall enough for a three. Reynolds no chance, and farr is a great college player now, but just not skilled enough for the show.

[LutherRackleyRulez]

A former well-known Major College Coach who is also the son of a well known and successful Major College Coach


MOR....

Would you be willing to out the name of the scout???

Me....

I'm thinking its Joey Meyer of DePaul fame

[scoscox]

I don't know, Trevon's game is pretty similar to Melo's and he's only two inches shorter. He did a pretty good job defending Ellenson as well. I think Trevon could probably do it. It would really help him to just completely dedicate himself to improving his athleticism and getting leaner, faster, stronger. Sumner is a monster. Reynolds really doesn't look that comfortable with most skills other than rebounding and dunking, which he does well. I think if Jalen really focused on being a great player instead of going out to prove he's the toughest guy every night he could be extremely good. Lastly, there have been a lot of 6'10" guys a lot worse than James that have had decent NBA careers. If James upped his scoring a little bit, which he is definitely capable of, he would definitely have a shot.

[GoMuskies]

MOR....

Would you be willing to out the name of the scout???

Me....

I'm thinking its Joey Meyer of DePaul fame


How about Richard Pitino? I mean, I guess he technically still has a job, but he's a dead man walking.

[xu82]

I don't know, Trevon's game is pretty similar to Melo's and he's only two inches shorter.

I think the actual height difference may be more, but here's one thing in Trevon's favor: He not only know how to shoot, he also knows how to not shoot.

[LA Muskie]

I'm no scout, but I think that's certainly within the margin for error (we are in election season, after all...). I think Sumner is a lottery pick in a year. He could go this year and would get drafted, but I think NBA teams would prefer to see him go through an off-season strength and conditioning program -- and to see how that affects his game. He would get killed in the NBA with his current frame.

I think Trevon is underestimated by just about everyone. Fans, media, and scouts included. He strikes me as the type that is going to excel at every level -- be it HS, AAU, College or the NBA. There are plenty of "unathletic" (comparably speaking) 2/3's in the league. He's about as good a shooter as most of them, and better in the paint than the vast majority of them.

Word on the street was that Jalen was gone after this season. I hope he reconsiders. Not just for the team's sake. But for his. He needs to have a James Farr-like transition next year. If he does, he will erase all the doubts. Everyone knows he has an NBA body, an NBA skill set, and NBA athleticism. But he needs to prove that he has an NBA mind.

I guess I have to reluctantly agree that James Farr is an NBA longshot. But I'm not ready to chalk him up to a Euro career just yet. There is almost always a spot on an NBA bench for a big elite rebounder, solid defender and reliable inside scorer. Particularly at the low end of the NBA pay scale.

[Xville]

I don't know, Trevon's game is pretty similar to Melo's and he's only two inches shorter. He did a pretty good job defending Ellenson as well. I think Trevon could probably do it. It would really help him to just completely dedicate himself to improving his athleticism and getting leaner, faster, stronger. Sumner is a monster. Reynolds really doesn't look that comfortable with most skills other than rebounding and dunking, which he does well. I think if Jalen really focused on being a great player instead of going out to prove he's the toughest guy every night he could be extremely good. Lastly, there have been a lot of 6'10" guys a lot worse than James that have had decent NBA careers. If James upped his scoring a little bit, which he is definitely capable of, he would definitely have a shot.
Sorry but on what planet is their game similar? Anthony has at least 3 inches on him and is extremely athletic. I love bluiett but he's a dime a dozen when it comes to good college players. He can't play a 2 and too short for a three. At this point, he may even be too short for a 2. 2's are now 6'6 - 6'7 in the league unless a freak athlete like a dwayne wade. I love bluiett and hope he proves me wrong, but there are a lot of guys just like him on other solid college teams.

[xu82]

We've never had anything like Sumner. We've had some great ones, but a 6'6" PG with that talent is a special thing. Keep it up Ed!

[D-West & PO-Z]

I'm no scout, but I think that's certainly within the margin for error (we are in election season, after all...). I think Sumner is a lottery pick in a year. He could go this year and would get drafted, but I think NBA teams would prefer to see him go through an off-season strength and conditioning program -- and to see how that affects his game. He would get killed in the NBA with his current frame.


I agree he will one day be a lottery pick and think he should stay another year but if he did go I dont necessarily think his body would limit him. The NBA isnt nearly as physical as it used to be and while a stronger frame would help him, especially going into the lane, look at a guy like Steph Curry's frame. People also said the same about Porzingis being too thin and being dominated for a few years while he fills out but that has not been true.

[scoscox]

Sumner could obviously use some strength, but it's not really as necessary as people think. A lot of great players have been pretty thin (tayshaun prince and kevin durant come to mind). The main thing for Edmond is working on making his jumper. His release needs to be higher and he's got to be able to hit shots when he's not set. If he can learn a pull up jumper he'd be terrifying.

I agree about Trevon, although I'm not sure where these unathletic 2/3 guards are that you're talking about. Lastly, I agree about Jalen and definitely agree about James. NBA teams can always use a player like that.

[scoscox]

Sorry but on what planet is their game similar? Anthony has at least 3 inches on him and is extremely athletic. I love bluiett but he's a dime a dozen when it comes to good college players. He can't play a 2 and too short for a three. At this point, he may even be too short for a 2. 2's are now 6'6 - 6'7 in the league unless a freak athlete like a dwayne wade. I love bluiett and hope he proves me wrong, but there are a lot of guys just like him on other solid college teams.

Well, I see him as kind of a mini-Melo. Melo is about 6'8" and Trevon's 6'6" and they have pretty similar builds and I don't know if you've ever watched Melo play, but the first thing that comes to mind is not "elite athlete". In fact, Melo's probably one of the least athletic superstars in league history. They're both oversized 2/3/4's and volume shooters that can carry a team's scoring load and hit every type of shot on the floor. Trevon averages about 5 fewer points and 3 fewer rebounds a game and, like I said, would greatly benefit from dedicating himself to improving his athleticism. I don't think he's THAT good, but I don't think he's that far off from being able to play in the NBA either.

[scoscox]

They even look pretty similar and both love the jab step, pull up to create space. I don't know, I see a lot of similarities in their games man.

[LA Muskie]

I agree he will one day be a lottery pick and think he should stay another year but if he did go I dont necessarily think his body would limit him. The NBA isnt nearly as physical as it used to be and while a stronger frame would help him, especially going into the lane, look at a guy like Steph Curry's frame. People also said the same about Porzingis being too thin and being dominated for a few years while he fills out but that has not been true.

I think to some degree it's a matter of perspective. Many of the NBA guys are huge so others look small in comparison. But Steph probably has 30 pounds on Edmond -- who is listed as 3 inches taller. Steph is listed at 190. Without an ounce of fat. (Have you seen the videos of his workouts? Dude is sick...). Meanwhile Edmond is listed at 170. And I'd be shocked if he's even 160.


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[xu82]

How tall is Trevon at a combine type measure? Love him, but like most others I bet he's got a generous measurement at 6'6". But what do I know?

[LA Muskie]

I agree about Trevon, although I'm not sure where these unathletic 2/3 guards are that you're talking about.
Again, I didn't say unathletic. There are very few unathletic NBA players outside the occasional center who can't move. But Trevon's not unathletic either.

In any event, outside the top 5-6 teams there are 2/3's who are not elite athletes all over the place. They usually make up for it with perimeter shooting prowess (i.e. JJ Redick) but very few can create for themselves the way Trevon would be capable of doing.


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[scoscox]

Okay, I think I see what you're trying to say. The NBA (and basketball in general) does a pretty good job of weeding out unathletic players better than almost every other major sport. There are definitely quite a few role player type 2/3's in the league, but honestly most of them are pretty elite athletes and Trevon is pretty behind most of them, but they are paid a lot more and have a lot more time to dedicate to it, so I'm sure he could make it up. I agree Trevon creates his own shot well and creates it in a similar way to Carmelo Anthony. I don't think he's THAT great, but Trevon's pretty good and I could definitely see him in the NBA.

[LA Muskie]

Yeah, that's basically what I'm saying. Although you said it better.


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[scoscox]

I agree he will one day be a lottery pick and think he should stay another year but if he did go I dont necessarily think his body would limit him. The NBA isnt nearly as physical as it used to be and while a stronger frame would help him, especially going into the lane, look at a guy like Steph Curry's frame. People also said the same about Porzingis being too thin and being dominated for a few years while he fills out but that has not been true.

Yea it's really not that big of a deal and it never has been that big of a deal with basketball players. I mean, they're not all Andre Igoudala's. Most of them aren't really that big and they still call fouls regardless of your size. It's not like Edmond is small and weak. He's 6'6", he;s got plenty of frame, he's just thin, which I think is being mistaken for weakness.

[LA Muskie]

I think you underestimate the size of NBA players.

There isn't a starting PG in the NBA who is 6'3" or larger and under 190 pounds. Many are over 200. Tyreke Evans, at 6'6", tips the scales at 220 -- 50 pounds more than Ed. There isn't a starting PG in the NBA as low as 170 pounds. And those in the 170's are 6'1" or smaller.

Although he wouldn't necessary be expected to be there yet, Edmond is at least 25-30 pounds undersized right now.

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[XfansinKy]

Well, I see him as kind of a mini-Melo. Melo is about 6'8" and Trevon's 6'6" and they have pretty similar builds and I don't know if you've ever watched Melo play, but the first thing that comes to mind is not "elite athlete". In fact, Melo's probably one of the least athletic superstars in league history. They're both oversized 2/3/4's and volume shooters that can carry a team's scoring load and hit every type of shot on the floor. Trevon averages about 5 fewer points and 3 fewer rebounds a game and, like I said, would greatly benefit from dedicating himself to improving his athleticism. I don't think he's THAT good, but I don't think he's that far off from being able to play in the NBA either.

Melo came into the league with a 40" vertical. Strong as a bull too.

[XfansinKy]

How tall is Trevon at a combine type measure? Love him, but like most others I bet he's got a generous measurement at 6'6". But what do I know?

Tre reminds me of Paul Pierce

[XUMIOH12]

Tre reminds me of Paul Pierce

thats kind of what i have always thought.

[XUMIOH12]

sometimes its funny listening to Xavier fans debate about the NBA chances of players. Making an NBA roster is extremely difficult. If Ed improves his shot a little, he will be drafted, maybe 1st rd. Farr wont play in the NBA. First few times i saw Trevon play i thought man this guy is going to be a great 4 year college player who probably wont make the NBA. Reynolds has the size/athleticism, but hes a little old for an NBA prospect and the way he is playing now, no way he gets drafted. Obviously i hope they all make an NBA roster at some point, but i just dont see it except for Ed.

[xufan2434]

Making it to the League, and staying there can sometimes depend so heavily on which team they go to and how things play out. Plenty of X examples in the past that didn't end up making it for a longer period of time because they didn't have the right fit. And there's plenty of examples throughout the league of guys who stick around because they got lucky or took advantage of their only opportunity.

Trevon always has been compared to Paul Pierce since before he committed to UCLA. While the league is different compared to when Pierce got drafted, I think there's teams that would be interested. I'm not a scout but he would have to improve lateral quickness and ball handling imo. Everything else I think he has, especially IQ. Kid is a winner and he's driven. I wouldn't count him out for anything

[xuwin]

I think you underestimate the size of NBA players.

There isn't a starting PG in the NBA who is 6'3" or larger and under 190 pounds. Many are over 200. Tyreke Evans, at 6'6", tips the scales at 220 -- 50 pounds more than Ed. There isn't a starting PG in the NBA as low as 170 pounds. And those in the 170's are 6'1" or smaller.

Although he wouldn't necessary be expected to be there yet, Edmond is at least 25-30 pounds undersized right now.

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Most of those NBA players weren't that big coming out of college. Aaron Williams was skinny as a rail in college and developed into one of the strongest big men in the league. Look how much James Farr's body has filled out in 3 years. Sumner had a growth spurt and just has to grow into his body.

[UCGRAD4X]

Most of those NBA players weren't that big coming out of college. Aaron Williams was skinny as a rail in college and developed into one of the strongest big men in the league. Look how much James Farr's body has filled out in 3 years. Sumner had a growth spurt and just has to grow into his body.

This makes a lot of sense (not that I have any particular expertise in this area...the 'making sense' part).

Won't it be fun to see how he develops. Whatever happens - enjoy the ride!

[sirthought]

I think you underestimate the size of NBA players.

There isn't a starting PG in the NBA who is 6'3" or larger and under 190 pounds. Many are over 200. Tyreke Evans, at 6'6", tips the scales at 220 -- 50 pounds more than Ed. There isn't a starting PG in the NBA as low as 170 pounds. And those in the 170's are 6'1" or smaller.

Although he wouldn't necessary be expected to be there yet, Edmond is at least 25-30 pounds undersized right now.

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"Starting" point guard is relative to many other things and doesn't implicate weight as a factor for being NBA ready, but these guys have all been in the league a while. Since these guys aren't as tall as Sumner, I'm not sure if that is apples and oranges, but these guys can all ball at a high level.
Aaron Brooks - 161 lbs.
JJ Barea - 185 lbs.
DJ Augustine - 185 lbs.
Darren Collison - 175 lbs.
Isaiah Thomas - 185 lbs.
Chris Paul - 175 lbs.

Sumner could stand to bulk up a bit still (probably 10-15 lbs would help), but he's not really that far away. I'm sure scouts looking at draft potential know what the NBA trainers would do with him to prepare his body for competition. If they think he has the skills and intelligence otherwise, I'd say they would grab him at this point. (And that's a big if, as his exposure to high level competition is still somewhat limited.)

[GoMuskies]

I think what we're all trying to say is that it would be a complete debacle if Sumner tried to go to the NBA after this season, and he'd likely end up playing in Somalia. However, if he comes back to play at least one more season at Xavier he'll end up as a perennial NBA All-Star and eventually a Hall of Famer.

[zanesxu]

I think what we're all trying to say is that it would be a complete debacle if Sumner tried to go to the NBA after this season, and he'd likely end up playing in Somalia. However, if he comes back to play at least one more season at Xavier he'll end up as a perennial NBA All-Star and eventually a Hall of Famer.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=duE9k1N0W4s
looks like Rose Hill Gym...

[scoscox]

Ha, I don't know it'll take atleast 2 more years for that GOMUSKIES. I don't get the resistance. It hasn't stopped anyone from being successful ever in basketball. Just because some other players are bigger doesn't prove anything. Tyreke Evans is probably an outlier on the large side and he's Sumner's height. Sumner is big already for an NBA point guard on average. It didn't stop Kareem, Kevin Durant, Tayshaun Prince, Reggie Miller and countless other guys who would extremely good, but skinny from being successful. And Porzingis as someone else was saying. The rules still apply. They're not playing football, basketball success is much more contingent on skill than force.

[GoMuskies]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=duE9k1N0W4s
looks like Rose Hill Gym...

That tournament was in Minneapolis. I'm talking living in Mogadishu if he doesn't come back for another year.

[XUMIOH12]

I dont think NBA teams are very concerned about his weight. They will put him on the NBA training regimen and diet and he will be just fine.

[scoscox]

Melo came into the league with a 40" vertical. Strong as a bull too.

That's true. Paul Pierce is a pretty good comparison.

[Masterofreality]

Ha, I don't know it'll take atleast 2 more years for that GOMUSKIES. I don't get the resistance. It hasn't stopped anyone from being successful ever in basketball. Just because some other players are bigger doesn't prove anything. Tyreke Evans is probably an outlier on the large side and he's Sumner's height. Sumner is big already for an NBA point guard on average. It didn't stop Kareem, Kevin Durant, Tayshaun Prince, Reggie Miller and countless other guys who would extremely good, but skinny from being successful. And Porzingis as someone else was saying. The rules still apply. They're not playing football, basketball success is much more contingent on skill than force.

Actually, it has kept guys from succeeding. The NBA season is a looooooooooong grind. It's not a 20 game high school season or even a 36 game (at most) college season. IT is 82 hard games against physical guys with bad travel and back to backs. It is also 48 minute games. A kid needs to be physically strong enough to withstand that and still play at a high level every night. No nights off against Fordham.

Ed is not strong enough physically to deal with that yet. His body needs to mature more- maybe one more, maybe two years more. He's not a physical specimen like a Lebron James was coming out of high school.

[scoscox]

I dont think NBA teams are very concerned about his weight. They will put him on the NBA training regimen and diet and he will be just fine.

Right, these guys get paid millions to work out every day. Sumner would fill out appropriately. He'll probably always be skinny, but he'd definitely get stronger. And he's only 19 right now.

[xufan2434]

Right, these guys get paid millions to work out every day. Sumner would fill out appropriately. He'll probably always be skinny, but he'd definitely get stronger. And he's only 19 right now.

Just turned 20, but regardless, I agree. Plenty of guys get drafted as lottery picks that are extremely skinny and put on weight. A lot of UK and other top players have already proven that. You think Brandon Ingram of Duke isn't gonna go Top 10 cause he's a pole?

[scoscox]

Actually, it has kept guys from succeeding. The NBA season is a looooooooooong grind. It's not a 20 game high school season or even a 36 game (at most) college season. IT is 82 hard games against physical guys with bad travel and back to backs. It is also 48 minute games. A kid needs to be physically strong enough to withstand that and still play at a high level every night. No nights off against Fordham.

Ed is not strong enough physically to deal with that yet. His body needs to mature more- maybe one more, maybe two years more. He's not a physical specimen like a Lebron James was coming out of high school.

Honestly, so many great players came into the league extremely skinny that I just can't agree with you. Kobe and Jordan were both skinny as a rail when they came in. You just picked the most incredible athlete the league has ever had as comparison. NO ONE has ever been as physical a specimen as Lebron coming out of high school. I mean, I really can't think of it stopping anyone at any point. He's obviously not Lebron, but Lebron being bigger didn't stop Steph Curry from outplaying him for the MVP and beating him the NBA finals. Curry can barely dunk. It's really not that big of a deal, just people like to say that to be critical. If a guy can play, he can play. Like you said Sumner will get bigger as well. I mean Larry Bird wasn't exactly thick. It's just been disspelled so many times that it doesn't really hold that much water in my eyes.

[Caveat]

sometimes its funny listening to Xavier fans debate about the NBA chances of players. Making an NBA roster is extremely difficult. If Ed improves his shot a little, he will be drafted, maybe 1st rd. Farr wont play in the NBA. First few times i saw Trevon play i thought man this guy is going to be a great 4 year college player who probably wont make the NBA. Reynolds has the size/athleticism, but hes a little old for an NBA prospect and the way he is playing now, no way he gets drafted. Obviously i hope they all make an NBA roster at some point, but i just dont see it except for Ed.

"Playing in the NBA" means a lot more than starting, getting minutes, etc.

Farr can absolutely play in the NBA with his size, rebounding ability, and offensive skills shooting or playing back to the basket. He'll never be anything more than a back-bench role player, IMO, but he absolutely has a chance to catch on in the D-League and work his way up to a roster.

[sirthought]

Steph Curry listed at 181 lbs. in college (2009) and he's now in the 190's.
Sumner's weight won't be an issue if teams like his skill set.

Sumner needs to polish up everything he does now. Experience and consistency. Particularly long range shooting, defense, and ball handling. His dribble drive looks awesome right now, but he has an advantage of being on a team with a lot of weapons, so his opportunities are opening up. Let's continue to see how he does against stronger competition.

I was one of the dissenting voices with Derrick Brown, Jordan Crawford, and Semaj Christon leaving early for the draft. If you can't dominate a game *consistently* in college then you aren't likely going to be a high draft pick (or maybe even make a NBA team). But players with borderline NBA skill sets, yet more college experience often get more opportunities to make a team. (You can argue the financials, but I'm talking about experience = making a team with impact.)

Sumner looks better than those three at this early stage for his overall game. Let's hope he stays healthy and see what he can do!



Here is an undrafted 6'9" 220 lbs. Aaron Williams highlight video for your viewing pleasure:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_eeDvjPil0

[Masterofreality]

Honestly, so many great players came into the league extremely skinny that I just can't agree with you. Kobe and Jordan were both skinny as a rail when they came in.

And you're picking basketball Hall of Famers who any NBA team would take a flyer on, and as much as I love Ed, he's not there...yet. You are also talking about a different NBA era- before the advent of such sophisticated weight and nutritional training. Look at the bodies of Xavier players now and when Jamie Gladden and Michael Davenport played around 1990. Irrelevant counselor.

Even with that, Jordan was a solid 200 pounds when he was drafted and played THREE years in College. Ed is 180 just coming off a year of knee tendinitis. Kobe was only 175 when he was drafted but was the son of an established NBA player and was unanimously ranked as the #1 high school player in the country so of course any NBA team would take a flyer on him. Ed is not quite in that category.

Ed is not strong enough yet. Period. His body needs to develop more. Don't rush the kid. He'll get there.

[muethibp]

I spend a stupid amount of time watching the NBA. Sumner might be ready for the show in a few years but not nearly so now. For one, he isn't strong enough as has been mentioned here. He's also going to be really need to improve his shooting - you can't shoot 65% from the FT line in the NBA as a point guard - and show he can take care of the ball better. Not trying to throw cold water on his prospects - he can absolutely make it - but he's not ready yet and could probably benefit by staying two more years.

[boozehound]

Hopefully all these kids play 4 years at X and then make the show. Realistically that's really hard to do. Remember how obscenely good Jordan Crawford looked at X? He bounced around the league for 3 years and is now playing in China.

Sumner definitely has a shot, but he has a ways to go. I view that as a good thing, as I am really enjoying watching him play and I would like to watch him play at Xavier for several more years.

[XUMIOH12]

"Playing in the NBA" means a lot more than starting, getting minutes, etc.

Farr can absolutely play in the NBA with his size, rebounding ability, and offensive skills shooting or playing back to the basket. He'll never be anything more than a back-bench role player, IMO, but he absolutely has a chance to catch on in the D-League and work his way up to a roster.

Do you watch the NBA at all? His size is average to below average for an NBA PF and below average for a C. And he doesnt have the athleticism that most of those guys have. He is no where near a good enough shooter (or post player even) to be able to score in the NBA. There is no doubt he can play on a D League team if he chooses, but that is a far cry from an NBA roster.

[Cheesehead]

With the way Farr rebounds and the improved post game, I could actually see him catch on somewhere in NBA. I now think he is a better prospect than Jalen. I would have never said that prior to this season.

[XUMIOH12]

I spend a stupid amount of time watching the NBA. Sumner might be ready for the show in a few years but not nearly so now. For one, he isn't strong enough as has been mentioned here. He's also going to be really need to improve his shooting - you can't shoot 65% from the FT line in the NBA as a point guard - and show he can take care of the ball better. Not trying to throw cold water on his prospects - he can absolutely make it - but he's not ready yet and could probably benefit by staying two more years.

this is right, he needs to become a better shooter overall.

[boozehound]

With the way Farr rebounds and the improved post game, I could actually see him catch on somewhere in NBA. I now think he is a better prospect than Jalen. I would have never said that prior to this season.

James has really made some major progress. He is a great example of the progress a player can make from their Junior to Senior year. Jalen just doesn't seem to have it upstairs. The talent is there, but the mental part of the game seems to be lacking. He still pick's up Technical Fouls instead of walking away. He can't seem to snap out of a rough patch. etc.

[scoscox]

I agree with both points and have said as much throughout the thread. He needs to improve both to really up his stock. If Sumner had a pull-up jumper he'd be unstoppable. The main stigma I was trying to refute is the idea that you can't be skinny and be successful. Basketball players aren't bulky, it hurts your game. These guys aren't all bangers. Basketball is about skill and putting the ball in the hoop much more so than using force. Ha, yes I'm choosing from a multitude of basketball HALL OF FAMERS to prove my point. Can you see how that would lead me to believe it's not a prerequisite for success? I'm not saying he doesn't need to bulk up a little, but he's young and he will, but the idea that a guy with talent is too skinny to make the NBA has been disproven time and time again. Honestly, I feel like it's a knock on like half the guys that come out every year, but they still end up getting drafted and a lot of them are extremely successful. Maybe, at some point, people should stop worrying about it. Just a thought. I definitely think the most important thing for him to work on is his jumper, though. He can't really shoot anything that's not straight on and he's not really that prolific if he is facing up. He doesn't have quite enough handle and distributing ability to make up for that yet.

[Masterofreality]

I agree with both points and have said as much throughout the thread. He needs to improve both to really up his stock. If Sumner had a pull-up jumper he'd be unstoppable. The main stigma I was trying to refute is the idea that you can't be skinny and be successful.[/I][/I]

Yep. Got it. but it's a matter of time. the body has to catch up strength wise for the "Show". How long that will be, we'll see. 1 more but probably more like 2 more years - that would get him his degree. I don't think we'll see him here in the fall of 2018.

[xuwin]

this is right, he needs to become a better shooter overall.

His FG % is .454 and he is .400 from the 3. Both numbers are outstanding for a point guard and the NBA is full of .65% or worse free throw shooters. He will shoot better than that from the free throw line. His stroke is too good.

[XUFan09]

With the way Farr rebounds and the improved post game, I could actually see him catch on somewhere in NBA. I now think he is a better prospect than Jalen. I would have never said that prior to this season.

Farr's post game is good for the college level but would be considered very limited at the NBA level. His mobility would be at best average for a center (and probably below average), while he would be undersized for the position. His mobility would be well below average for a power forward, while he would only be average-sized for the position.

He is an absolutely elite rebounder, and rebounding is something that tends to translate really well between levels of basketball. His other attributes, though, hold him back and essentially consign him to the D-league at best.

[ammtd34]

Hopefully all these kids play 4 years at X and then make the show. Realistically that's really hard to do. Remember how obscenely good Jordan Crawford looked at X? He bounced around the league for 3 years and is now playing in China.

Sumner definitely has a shot, but he has a ways to go. I view that as a good thing, as I am really enjoying watching him play and I would like to watch him play at Xavier for several more years.

I think Crawford's head has kept him out of the NBA more than his ability. He's averaged 12 points, 4 rebounds, and 3 assists a game. He's good enough to be a backup almost anywhere. I think teams just don't want him.

[boozehound]

Yep. Got it. but it's a matter of time. the body has to catch up strength wise for the "Show". How long that will be, we'll see. 1 more but probably more like 2 more years - that would get him his degree. I don't think we'll see him here in the fall of 2018.

2 more years of Ed after this year? I could definitely live with that!

My guess is that putting on bulk is very difficult for Ed. Remember that he red shirted last year due to tendinitis in his knees, so he has already had over a year in the strength and conditioning program. I'm sure they had him lifting weights and chugging protein shakes all season last year. My guess is that he may not fill out a ton.

[XUFan09]

I think Crawford's head has kept him out of the NBA more than his ability. He's averaged 12 points, 4 rebounds, and 3 assists a game. He's good enough to be a backup almost anywhere. I think teams just don't want him.

Yup.

[Caveat]

Do you watch the NBA at all? His size is average to below average for an NBA PF and below average for a C. And he doesnt have the athleticism that most of those guys have. He is no where near a good enough shooter (or post player even) to be able to score in the NBA. There is no doubt he can play on a D League team if he chooses, but that is a far cry from an NBA roster.

I watch the NBA extensively. The league is getting smaller and moving away from traditional 1-5 role assignments in favor of creating matchup advantages. The "he's too small to be an X," is dated thinking in the league; once you meet a minimum size threshold, the league finds a place for you if you can contribute on the floor.

And, let's be clear about what I've said regarding Farr: he's not a starter or even a guy who would get regular minutes in the NBA. But, he's an elite rebounding talent who has enough of an offensive game to find a spot on the right team at the back of a bench. If he's willing to work hard and dedicate himself to getting stronger, I think he absolutely has a chance to go through the D-League and catch on in the NBA somewhere at the back end of a roster.

[birdman71]

Farr's post game is good for the college level but would be considered very limited at the NBA level. His mobility would be at best average for a center (and probably below average), while he would be undersized for the position. His mobility would be well below average for a power forward, while he would only be average-sized for the position.

He is an absolutely elite rebounder, and rebounding is something that tends to translate really well between levels of basketball. His other attributes, though, hold him back and essentially consign him to the D-league at best.


6'10'' ''absolutely elite rebounder'' [yes], but he also has a very good mid-range jumper. Don't write him off for the NBA just yet.

[XUMIOH12]

6'10'' ''absolutely elite rebounder'' [yes], but he also has a very good mid-range jumper. Don't write him off for the NBA just yet.

I doubt he actually measures out at 6-10. And by NBA standards he does not have a "very good mid-range jumper". Aside from rebounding, his game is very limited (for the NBA).

[XUMIOH12]

I watch the NBA extensively. The league is getting smaller and moving away from traditional 1-5 role assignments in favor of creating matchup advantages. The "he's too small to be an X," is dated thinking in the league; once you meet a minimum size threshold, the league finds a place for you if you can contribute on the floor.

And, let's be clear about what I've said regarding Farr: he's not a starter or even a guy who would get regular minutes in the NBA. But, he's an elite rebounding talent who has enough of an offensive game to find a spot on the right team at the back of a bench. If he's willing to work hard and dedicate himself to getting stronger, I think he absolutely has a chance to go through the D-League and catch on in the NBA somewhere at the back end of a roster.

Yes, it is getting smaller, but his skill set only allows him to play down low, where he may be able to grab a few rebounds, but wont be able to do much of anything else. No team would want any part of James Farr on the perimeter. I would love to see him make an NBA roster, but i would be surprised if he even sniffed an NBA bench. For the most part the D-League is not a good path to make the NBA.

[Xville]

Yes, it is getting smaller, but his skill set only allows him to play down low, where he may be able to grab a few rebounds, but wont be able to do much of anything else. No team would want any part of James Farr on the perimeter. I would love to see him make an NBA roster, but i would be surprised if he even sniffed an NBA bench. For the most part the D-League is not a good path to make the NBA.

I think it's getting smaller on the interior, taller out on the perimeter. Guys are so ridiculously athletic in the nba...6'7-6-8 guys with guard skills that has changed. I think the whole nba getting smaller thing is a little overblown in my opinion.

[xavierj]

Steph Curry listed at 181 lbs. in college (2009) and he's now in the 190's.
Sumner's weight won't be an issue if teams like his skill set.

Sumner needs to polish up everything he does now. Experience and consistency. Particularly long range shooting, defense, and ball handling. His dribble drive looks awesome right now, but he has an advantage of being on a team with a lot of weapons, so his opportunities are opening up. Let's continue to see how he does against stronger competition.

I was one of the dissenting voices with Derrick Brown, Jordan Crawford, and Semaj Christon leaving early for the draft. If you can't dominate a game *consistently* in college then you aren't likely going to be a high draft pick (or maybe even make a NBA team). But players with borderline NBA skill sets, yet more college experience often get more opportunities to make a team. (You can argue the financials, but I'm talking about experience = making a team with impact.)

Sumner looks better than those three at this early stage for his overall game. Let's hope he stays healthy and see what he can do!



Here is an undrafted 6'9" 220 lbs. Aaron Williams highlight video for your viewing pleasure:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_eeDvjPil0

What are you looking for from 3? 50%? He is at 40% now. This is not Semaj shooting threes. Kid has a pretty nice stroke. Great form.

[Drew's Crew]

I think we can agree on one thing.

If Ed stays for four years, he will become the #1 overall pick and make the NBA HOF. I don't see any other real options for him.

[XUGRAD80]

I think we can agree on one thing.

If Ed stays for four years......he will have a degree, just like all the others that stayed 4 years...... I don't see any other real options for him.

fixt it 4 U

[Drew's Crew]

fixt it 4 U

Actually, he would probably have a Masters...even better!

[MADXSTER]

I do not watch a lot of NBA games but the ones I've seen this year have no doubt unimpressed. Maybe it is due to watching Xavier move the ball or the NBA coaches on these teams suck. I really don't know. But from what I've seen, if some of these guys can play in the league then James Farr can play in the league. I'm not saying he's a stud as much as some of the guys in the league are unimpressive. IMO.

[sirthought]

What are you looking for from 3? 50%? He is at 40% now. This is not Semaj shooting threes. Kid has a pretty nice stroke. Great form.

I agree with you. I said improve shooting and show consistency. My thought as evaluating NBA talent is we have a very limited sample to determine how good of an outside shooter he really is in different game situations. Sumner just hasn't played that many games yet. Plus, he's got a stacked team playing against not-as-stacked teams. If he can continue to hit those shots in his time here, there's no doubt it's a strength. And he'll need to utilize the 3 and a midrange jumper much more in the NBA where guys have similar speed as he does, which limits his slashing. I think he's the best prospect we've had in a long time, but that's an area he'll have to work on to prove himself.

[XUFan09]

Sumner was a very late bloomer, so he wasn't really displaying NBA-level ability as a high schooler. Because of that, he'll need another year of data to showcase his abilities, barring transformational play for the remainder of the season that makes his current level look only okay.

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[nasdadjr]

I do not watch a lot of NBA games but the ones I've seen this year have no doubt unimpressed. Maybe it is due to watching Xavier move the ball or the NBA coaches on these teams suck. I really don't know. But from what I've seen, if some of these guys can play in the league then James Farr can play in the league. I'm not saying he's a stud as much as some of the guys in the league are unimpressive. IMO.

Then u have not watched golden state cause they are the best show in all of sports right now

[nasdadjr]

Sumner was a very late bloomer, so he wasn't really displaying NBA-level ability as a high schooler. Because of that, he'll need another year of data to showcase his abilities, barring transformational play for the remainder of the season that makes his current level look only okay.

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Sumner stays 2 years 3 if we r lucky. A 6-6 pg with his quick first step doesn't stay in college very long

[markchal]

Let's hope there were no scouts watching that one tonight.

[Xavier]

Then u have not watched golden state cause they are the best show in all of sports right now

The Spurs are better.

[smileyy]

Does anyone watch enough Denver Nuggest basketball to draw a comparison between Emmanuel Mudiay <-> Edmond Sumner comp? I made the observation that Mudiay is also 6'5" and thus far has been terrible in the NBA (he's only 19, and played in a < Div-I-quality pro league last year). I'm thinking that Sumner might look just about that bad if you dropped him into the NBA.

[GoMuskies]

The Spurs are better.

Well this was a bad call.

[smileyy]

I think Sumner is kind of flying under the radar from a NBA perspective. DX only has his stats and vitals and no scouting information: http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Edmond-Sumner-71622/

Has anyone noticed if Sumner seems to have short arms? NBA player wingspans historically have been 110% of player height, and Sumner's listed 6'6" wingspan vs. 6'4" in shoes (from 2013) is like 102.5%

[xu82]

I have no idea but I always thought his arms looked long.

[smileyy]

Those measurements could be inaccurate.

[MADXSTER]

Big ears do not translate into NBA talent. Edmond has small ears.

[xu82]

Big ears do not translate into NBA talent. Edmond has small ears.

Dumbo could fly with his ears, but he gave up quickness. Ed's ears are smaller and more aerodynamic, and he can still fly!

[SemajParlor]

Love Sumner's game. Nowhere near NBA ready right now. I actually think Semaj was more NBA ready at this point than Ed. So hard to make the NBA.

[markchal]

Honestly, Sumner is probably the best NBA prospect we've had since Crawford, and before that, you might be going back to West. He's got incredible speed and NBA height. He needs to get bigger and hasn't shown well in the games with the most scouts, but I'd be surprised if he's here his junior year. He's been a little exposed against top flight competition, but with a strong March and the NBAs love of potential, I think there's a tiny chance he leaves this year.

I really do think it's just a matter of when, not if, he'll make it to the NBA. I do wonder if the new draft rule could hurt us here, if Ed sees a chance to sneak into the end of rd 1.

[smileyy]

DX is projecting Bluiett in the 2nd round of next year's draft. I wouldn't be surprised to see Sumner in that draft too.

[IM4X]

I doubt he actually measures out at 6-10. And by NBA standards he does not have a "very good mid-range jumper". Aside from rebounding, his game is very limited (for the NBA).

Farr's mid range jumper and the rest of his game are starting to look pretty-pretty good.

[bleedXblue]

Farr's mid range jumper and the rest of his game are starting to look pretty-pretty good.

Farr is gonna get an opportunity to play in the NBA. He has good size, runs the floor well, rebounds and has a nice mid range game.

[Caveat]

Farr's mid range jumper and the rest of his game are starting to look pretty-pretty good.

His jumper is minimum-threshold level for an NBA player his size, and his release is deliberate and slow. Look, I don't think anyone on here is trying to run down Farr or demean what he's accomplished, but playing in the NBA is really, really hard. The skill sets and body types required to play are incredibly specific, and it's not like the NFL -- where the guys you see being successful on Saturday are usually good bets to be successful on Sunday. It's just a different beast entirely, and they're drafting for skill sets not college production. I think Farr can make an NBA roster if he works hard, but it'll be the long way (through the D-League), and I doubt he's anything more than a back-end roster / 10-day contract guy who rarely sees the floor. It's that tough to make it at the next level.

As far as Sumner goes, he needs to hit the weight room hard in the offseason.

[XUMIOH12]

Farr's mid range jumper and the rest of his game are starting to look pretty-pretty good.

based on the game Tuesday? His jump shot is below average if you are talking NBA PF.

[UCGRAD4X]

His jumper is minimum-threshold level for an NBA player his size, and his release is deliberate and slow. Look, I don't think anyone on here is trying to run down Farr or demean what he's accomplished, but playing in the NBA is really, really hard. The skill sets and body types required to play are incredibly specific, and it's not like the NFL -- where the guys you see being successful on Saturday are usually good bets to be successful on Sunday. It's just a different beast entirely, and they're drafting for skill sets not college production. I think Farr can make an NBA roster if he works hard, but it'll be the long way (through the D-League), and I doubt he's anything more than a back-end roster / 10-day contract guy who rarely sees the floor. It's that tough to make it at the next level.

Let me start by saying I don't know whoo-whoo about the NBA...but some people - realizing that Farr might be borderline NBA, at best, are looking at the leap he has made to this point and wondering if that same kind of dedication and progress could get him into the show, where he could continue to learn and progress at THAT level, from those who know how to define/refine his skills to fit a certain niche/need...

Yes, he would have to make a leap...but he has already shown that he can, off more than one foot too!

[Caveat]

based on the game Tuesday? His jump shot is below average if you are talking NBA PF.

If you watch shootaround prior to an NBA game, you'll see every PF in the league has a jump shot. They just don't take them in games because most coaches have finally figured out that a 2 point jumper is one of the worst outcomes an offense can generate.

[X Factor]

If you watch shootaround prior to an NBA game, you'll see every PF in the league has a jump shot. They just don't take them in games because most coaches have finally figured out that a 2 point jumper is one of the worst outcomes an offense can generate.


I disagree. I watch a lot of basketball, college and NBA, and I see a lot of power fowards shooting mid-range jumpers.

David West made a living shooting jumpers in the NBA.

[Milhouse]

If you watch shootaround prior to an NBA game, you'll see every PF in the league has a jump shot. They just don't take them in games because most coaches have finally figured out that a 2 point jumper is one of the worst outcomes an offense can generate.

which is why stretch 4s are becoming much more popular.

[LA Muskie]

Very few 6'10" NBA guys have the mid-range game that Farr has coming into the league. They develop it. In terms of tools coming into the league, Farr would be ahead of the curve there, ahead of the curve on the boards, about average defensively, and behind the curve "athletically".


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[bobbiemcgee]

Does anyone watch enough Denver Nuggest basketball to draw a comparison between Emmanuel Mudiay <-> Edmond Sumner comp? I made the observation that Mudiay is also 6'5" and thus far has been terrible in the NBA (he's only 19, and played in a < Div-I-quality pro league last year). I'm thinking that Sumner might look just about that bad if you dropped him into the NBA.

Yeah, I wouldn't say he's terrible:

http://www.nba.com/nuggets/news/mudiay-jokic-selected-for-world-team-012716

[Juice]

which is why stretch 4s are becoming much more popular.

The problem is that Farr isn't a stretch 4 in the NBA. He's too immobile to guard a 4 in the NBA and doesn't have a size advantage as a 5. He's kind of a tweener between a PF and C. I'm hoping for the best for the guy but he's not an NBA player.

[xufan2434]

The problem is that Farr isn't a stretch 4 in the NBA. He's too immobile to guard a 4 in the NBA and doesn't have a size advantage as a 5. He's kind of a tweener between a PF and C. I'm hoping for the best for the guy but he's not an NBA player.

The thing is, I think Farr knows and understands this. I have 0 evidence or quotes to say he does, but just based on his character and attitude, seems like he knows this is his last chance for something great. He's a very humble kid who I think could do well overseas. I think if you were to ask him behind doors, he'd probably agree but his focus is on now and this team

[Juice]

The thing is, I think Farr knows and understands this. I have 0 evidence or quotes to say he does, but just based on his character and attitude, seems like he knows this is his last chance for something great. He's a very humble kid who I think could do well overseas. I think if you were to ask him behind doors, he'd probably agree but his focus is on now and this team

And I'd agree with that to some extent. I agree that he realizes that it's last chance to do something great while at Xavier. But he still has an awesome shot to do things in other leagues other than the NBA and makes tons of money while doing it.

[D-West & PO-Z]

Jeff Van Gundy was talking about Jonathan Simmons for the Spurs last night and how the Spurs have been so good at finding hidden gems and developing players etc. He continued to say a couple things of note. One was if a guy is very good to elite at just one thing it can really open doors for him to make an NBA team and be developed in other areas. James is becoming an elite rebounder at the college level, so there is potential for him to use that as a shot at the next level. Also JVG talked about a guys motor and work ethic and how NBA coaches love it when a guy has that and with that they can be developed and learn new things.

I'm not saying Farr is an NBA player but he has two of those things going for him that JVG was talking about and I dont think he should easily be dismissed as no way/no chance at the NBA.

I love the fact that this is even debatable at this point because it shows how far James has come. Awesome.

[xufan2434]

And I'd agree with that to some extent. I agree that he realizes that it's last chance to do something great while at Xavier. But he still has an awesome shot to do things in other leagues other than the NBA and makes tons of money while doing it.

I meant that he probably agrees overseas is what his future holds

[TAP2008]

Paul Pierce, when he played in the NBA is a great comparison for Bludaddy. However, do you remember Pierce in college? He played much more athletically. Slashing and jamming with regularity.

I'll just leave this here.. I don't see any Tre in him at all in this video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o8ZMW9OviPU

[MADXSTER]

Guess Charles Barkley would never make it into the league today since he would be an undersized rebounder. I just don't think that things are as black and white as some on here suggest. Just my opinion.

[smileyy]

Yeah, I wouldn't say he's terrible:

http://www.nba.com/nuggets/news/mudiay-jokic-selected-for-world-team-012716


Well...terrible in the NBA is kind of impossible. But he's not playing well. He's only 19 and thrown into the NBA without any high-level competition. Regardless, he's not playing well.

Box Plus/Minus has him making the team 6 points worse per 100 possessions when he's on the floor. (Contrast, Steph Curry makes his team 13 points better, per 100 posessions)

[smileyy]

The problem is that Farr isn't a stretch 4 in the NBA. He's too immobile to guard a 4 in the NBA and doesn't have a size advantage as a 5. He's kind of a tweener between a PF and C. I'm hoping for the best for the guy but he's not an NBA player.

The era of the big center*, and the era of the lunchpail PF are kind of over.

(Andre Drummond and DeMarcus Cousins suggest this death announcement might be premature)

[smileyy]

Guess Charles Barkley would never make it into the league today since he would be an undersized rebounder. I just don't think that things are as black and white as some on here suggest. Just my opinion.


Barkley is one of those NBA athletic outliers, like many of the top 50 all-time in the NBA are.

He'd have a place in the modern NBA; I'm not sure what his game would look like in the pace-and-space, no-illegal-D, no-handchecking league.

[paulxu]

This is a turrribile thread.

[mistabeecee41]

Will you all stop. We're all clearly biased.

There was a 'Matt Stainbrook NBA' thread last year where a bunch of you thought that his size and basketball IQ would get him a shot. James will have a wonderful career in Europe. He's not an NBA player.

[XUMIOH12]

Will you all stop. We're all clearly biased.

There was a 'Matt Stainbrook NBA' thread last year where a bunch of you thought that his size and basketball IQ would get him a shot. James will have a wonderful career in Europe. He's not an NBA player.

Thank you. The Matt Stainbrook NBA thread was the worst ever. I believe one of those threads was the reason i first posted here, because i was so appalled people thought that was a possibility.

[smileyy]

I mean, he got a Summer League invite. That probably puts him among the best 1000 or 1500 basketball players in the country. As I've said -- that gap between that and the top 500 who can land in the NBA is really really wide.

[Juice]

The era of the big center*, and the era of the lunchpail PF are kind of over.

(Andre Drummond and DeMarcus Cousins suggest this death announcement might be premature)

I agree the era of the lunch pail PF is over but he's not athletic/quick enough to keep up with those PFs. He could maybe make it as a center but I just don't see it. Again, I hope I'm wrong.

[XUMIOH12]

I mean, he got a Summer League invite. That probably puts him among the best 1000 or 1500 basketball players in the country. As I've said -- that gap between that and the top 500 who can land in the NBA is really really wide.

pretty much every player coming out of college gets a shot in the summer league. I think each NBA team can have 15 players under contract at a time, and only 13 can dress each game. I would like to know how many of those 390-450 players already have contracts through next season.

[Xpectations]

The problem is that Farr isn't a stretch 4 in the NBA. He's too immobile to guard a 4 in the NBA and doesn't have a size advantage as a 5. He's kind of a tweener between a PF and C. I'm hoping for the best for the guy but he's not an NBA player.

If you had substituted "DeJuan Blair" for "Farr" above, couldn't you have said the same thing?

I have no idea if Farr can make an NBA roster or not. But Blair was even more undersized than Farr (except around his waist), wasn't all that athletic, and was certainly not a stretch big.

[smileyy]

I was shocked to find out that Blair was still in the league.

TBH, that...rotundness...can be an asset in the NBA, especially if you're a little undersized (like Barkley). The further away your body keeps guys from you, the more that they have to reach out over you to defend or rebound. It gives you more space to do your thing.

[SemajParlor]

Stop it. You guys are sounding silly.

Dejuan Blair was Big East co player of the year and was 1st team All American as a soph

[GoMuskies]

Frease did a fantastic job on Blair. If Brown had just stopped one inch short...

[Xville]

Now we are comparing Blair, a first team All-American and Big East Co-player of the year who left two years early to James Farr..some of you guys crack me up.

[XUFan09]

pretty much every player coming out of college gets a shot in the summer league.

This is not remotely true, even if we limit ourselves to high-D1 starters. Still, what Smileyy said still stands: There's a huge difference between being one of the top 1000 to 1500 players in the world and being one of the top 500.

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[xu82]

This is not remotely true, even if we limit ourselves to high-D1 starters. Still, what Smileyy said still stands: There's a huge difference between being one of the top 1000 to 1500 players in the world and being one of the top 500.

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That's always the case, even if you look to football, golf, tennis or pretty much any other sport. You can be INCREDIBLE, and not nearly good enough. (Golf and tennis are easy to look at due to the objective player rankings.)

[bobbiemcgee]

Well...terrible in the NBA is kind of impossible. But he's not playing well. He's only 19 and thrown into the NBA without any high-level competition. Regardless, he's not playing well.

Box Plus/Minus has him making the team 6 points worse per 100 possessions when he's on the floor. (Contrast, Steph Curry makes his team 13 points better, per 100 posessions)

He gets 8.1 million from the Nuggets for 3 yrs. and a fat UA shoe deal. Still developing after the ankle injury. Steph Curry comparison? Like you said, he's only 19. Geesh.

[ammtd34]

He gets 8.1 million from the Nuggets for 3 yrs. and a fat UA shoe deal. Still developing after the ankle injury. Steph Curry comparison? Like you said, he's only 19. Geesh.

Right. It's not like Mudiay's development is now over. He's 19 and the only thing he has to do is play basketball. Of course he's going to improve by the time he's 27.

[xu82]

Frease did a fantastic job on Blair. If Brown had just stopped one inch short...

His feets too big!

[GoMuskies]

His feets too big!

I think he saw Bill Murray and got distracted.

[SemajParlor]

I'll never forget this game. I legitimately felt bad for Thabeet. One of the worst bully games in recent memory.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-FBLqgFbymc

[American X]

If Brown had just stopped one inch short...

Dez Wells too.

[Xpectations]

Now we are comparing Blair, a first team All-American and Big East Co-player of the year who left two years early to James Farr..some of you guys crack me up.

I'm not comparing them. The safer bet as to whether Farr ever plays in the NBA is "no," and by a good margin.

As to the All-American and Big East Co-player of the year--when the hell did that ever become a guarantee of NBA success versus players who didn't receive those accolades? Seriously. When? Same with Heisman trophy winners. What translates to success in college is VERY different than what translates to the NBA (or NFL).

[Xville]

I'm not comparing them. The safer bet as to whether Farr ever plays in the NBA is "no," and by a good margin.

As to the All-American and Big East Co-player of the year--when the hell did that ever become a guarantee of NBA success versus players who didn't receive those accolades? Seriously. When? Same with Heisman trophy winners. What translates to success in college is VERY different than what translates to the NBA (or NFL).

It isn't a prerequisite...however it is indicative that the guy was a freaking stud in college, even in his sophomore year...Farr is good, but not what Blair was in college. If you cant dominate in college, or have the ability to in other words that high ceiling, you arent making it on an nba roster..period. thats the point. You compared the two whether you want to admit it or not...just arguing semantics.

[Xpectations]

It isn't a prerequisite...however it is indicative that the guy was a freaking stud in college, even in his sophomore year...Farr is good, but not what Blair was in college. If you cant dominate in college, or have the ability to in other words that high ceiling, you arent making it on an nba roster..period. thats the point. You compared the two whether you want to admit it or not...just arguing semantics.

Then I (or you) missed my point. Someone made a comment about Farr (not being a good enough shooter or athlete to be a stretch 4 and not being big enough to guard 5s). I simply stated you could have substituted "Blair" in that statement and it would have still been true.

The only point I was trying to make is that you can't just take one (or even several) traits of a player's game and project what that means as though it's the gospel. Because there are plenty of exceptions--including many to your All American and Conference co-POY point.

[xavierj]

Now we are comparing Blair, a first team All-American and Big East Co-player of the year who left two years early to James Farr..some of you guys crack me up.

I would take James Farr. Fat Blair is vastly overrated, was in college too. He is really killing it in the NBA. No not really, yikes.

[xavierj]

Now we are comparing Blair, a first team All-American and Big East Co-player of the year who left two years early to James Farr..some of you guys crack me up.

Blair was drafted 37th for a reason. Smart scouts new he didnt translate to NBA and dumb scouts got excited because he was really good in the old big east.

[XUFan09]

Blair was drafted 37th for a reason. Smart scouts new he didnt translate to NBA and dumb scouts got excited because he was really good in the old big east.
His 16.5 career PER makes him a slightly above average NBA player. He hasn't been good in the past two seasons, but his first five were productive as a role player. That's pretty good for a second-round pick.

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[xavierj]

His 16.5 career PER makes him a slightly above average NBA player. He hasn't been good in the past two seasons, but his first five were productive as a role player. That's pretty good for a second-round pick.

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16.5 per. What is that? His best season was 9.5 per game points, but maybe you are talking about something else.

[XUFan09]

16.5 per. What is that? His best season was 9.5 per game points, but maybe you are talking about something else.
PER: Player Efficiency Rating. It's a major NBA metric.

Edit: The league average each season is always set at 15.0.

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[LA Muskie]

This thread convinces me that the vast majority of posters don't actually watch NBA games and assume that there are only 6 NBA teams who only play 5 guys a piece and where every play is a highlight.


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[xavierj]

This thread convinces me that the vast majority of posters don't actually watch NBA games and assume that there are only 6 NBA teams who only play 5 guys a piece and where every play is a highlight.


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I would agree with that. Also think some guys on this board should switch careers to NBA scouts...

[LA Muskie]

I do that in my spare (non-XU Hoops) time.


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[Juice]

I would agree with that. Also think some guys on this board should switch careers to NBA scouts...

Says the guy who didn't know what PER was...

[SemajParlor]

XavierJ is 0 for 4 on his last 4 posts

[sirthought]

Guess Charles Barkley would never make it into the league today since he would be an undersized rebounder. I just don't think that things are as black and white as some on here suggest. Just my opinion.

Great example. Jason Maxiell or Danny Fortson are also guys who are undersized "big" men who mainly came in for rebounding and defense. I think a current era player might be Demarre Carroll, who's game was well rounded, but he wasn't great at any one thing in college other than having an incredibly high motor, grabbing rebounds and fighting to score any way possible. Today, he's got a much better shooting touch than he ever did in college.


Well...terrible in the NBA is kind of impossible. But he's not playing well. He's only 19 and thrown into the NBA without any high-level competition. Regardless, he's not playing well.

Box Plus/Minus has him making the team 6 points worse per 100 possessions when he's on the floor. (Contrast, Steph Curry makes his team 13 points better, per 100 posessions)


You're nuts though to say he's not playing well. He's a rookie. His PER rating is below NBA average, but you have to weigh in his experience. The bottom line is his production stats are more than solid. He's not a star, but his scoring and assists are positive. His defense is not where it needs to be, but he's learning. The Nuggets got a quick and smart guy who is going to be a solid player for a long time.

[SemajParlor]

I don't see the comparisons with Farr and Carroll. Carroll is a very athletic and elite wing defender as well as a knockdown 3 point shooter. I like Farr a lot, but it would tough to envision him playing on the wing professionally.

I see Farr in more of a Quincy Acy / Reggie Evans role.

[Juice]

Great example. Jason Maxiell or Danny Fortson are also guys who are undersized "big" men who mainly came in for rebounding and defense. I think a current era player might be Demarre Carroll, who's game was well rounded, but he wasn't great at any one thing in college other than having an incredibly high motor, grabbing rebounds and fighting to score any way possible. Today, he's got a much better shooting touch than he ever did in college.




You're nuts though to say he's not playing well. He's a rookie. His PER rating is below NBA average, but you have to weigh in his experience. The bottom line is his production stats are more than solid. He's not a star, but his scoring and assists are positive. His defense is not where it needs to be, but he's learning. The Nuggets got a quick and smart guy who is going to be a solid player for a long time.

Fortson was 1st team All-American his last year in college. Maxiell was two times all conference. Yes, these guys were undersized for the position but their accomplishments in college make Farr's look very small.

[markchal]

Fortson was 1st team All-American his last year in college. Maxiell was two times all conference. Yes, these guys were undersized for the position but their accomplishments in college make Farr's look very small.

Farr could be a C-USA all-conf. Does the BE have a sixth man of the year award? I think he'd be a pretty high contender for that.

[XMuskieFTW]

Farr could be a C-USA all-conf. Does the BE have a sixth man of the year award? I think he'd be a pretty high contender for that.

They do have a 6th man of the year award. Josh Hart won it last year. I would imagine it would be between James and Kelan Martin this year.

[Lloyd Braun]

I have forever been of the opinion that Farr is not an NBA prospect. He is a below average leaper, rather slow, average passer and hands, average footwork though improving, decent shot stroke. However my opinion has changed. He is an elite rebounder ala Tristan Thompson (slightly less athletic than TT). If you have an elite skill there is a spot for you on a roster to see what happens. Rebounding and hustle are not very teachable, and his intangibles are solid. He is by farr my favorite X player right now, and the clear leader of a contending team.

[Juice]

I have forever been of the opinion that Farr is not an NBA prospect. He is a below average leaper, rather slow, average passer and hands, average footwork though improving, decent shot stroke. However my opinion has changed. He is an elite rebounder ala Tristan Thompson (slightly less athletic than TT). If you have an elite skill there is a spot for you on a roster to see what happens. Rebounding and hustle are not very teachable, and his intangibles are solid. He is by farr my favorite X player right now, and the clear leader of a contending team.

Slightly less? A lot less.

[wkrq59]

Who cares about his frigging NBA status now. He has a season to finish and he is playing the best basketball of his life and seems to be enjoying the heck out of it. Basketball players come to Xavier to get a degree and finance those studies by playing basketball. I only care about Xavier . This is the best team I've watched in my 79 years, 60 of them in close association. Go Muskie

[XUGRAD80]

Who cares about his frigging NBA status now. He has a season to finish and he is playing the best basketball of his life and seems to be enjoying the heck out of it. Basketball players come to Xavier to get a degree and finance those studies by playing basketball. I only care about Xavier . This is the best team I've watched in my 79 years, 60 of them in close association. Go Muskie

As we used to say.....Right On! Right On! :neo:

[Lloyd Braun]

Who cares about his frigging NBA status now. He has a season to finish and he is playing the best basketball of his life and seems to be enjoying the heck out of it. Basketball players come to Xavier to get a degree and finance those studies by playing basketball. I only care about Xavier . This is the best team I've watched in my 79 years, 60 of them in close association. Go Muskie

Soooo threads like this should not be created until after the season? I don't understand. It's basically a discussion of their future, which is fun IMO. Doesn't mean we don't enjoy the present.

[Lloyd Braun]

Slightly less? A lot less.

I don't know. TT is not coordinated, can't shoot, is not explosive, and vertical leap is probably average. He's got great hustle and drive, and a knack for rebounding.

[Juice]

I don't know. TT is not coordinated, can't shoot, is not explosive, and vertical leap is probably average. He's got great hustle and drive, and a knack for rebounding.

I'm only talking about athleticism. This is what Draft Express said about him before the draft:


Thompson is a good overall athlete, adequately quick and explosive, bouncy and active around the basket. Even if he is not an elite athlete by NBA standards, his freshman season was characterized by his energy and while he is not particularly skilled, he asserted himself simply through his consistently high effort level.

Farr would never get that written about him. I don't think they're the same player at all.

[Lloyd Braun]

I'm only talking about athleticism. This is what Draft Express said about him before the draft:



Farr would never get that written about him. I don't think they're the same player at all.

That is true. I don't think they're the same either, just using the comparison that if you have an elite skill you can make a good living. I would consider Thompson an average athlete for his position.