Delusional cryer fans

[X-man]

Just when you think cryer fans can't any loonier, you see something like this on their boards:

Originally Posted by TX Flyer

"Mack has no reason to leave X. It's his alma mater, in the big east with their TV package, getting the recruits he needs to win, has success in NCAA tourney, possible 1 or 2 seed this year. That doesn't sound like something you walk away from."

I think you are right. Sort of sounds similar to what Archie has at UD.

However as we know, money talks and some coaches may walk.

[JTG]

Nothing to see here..move along...we don't give a shit what VD thinks

[blueblood]

Who's Dayton? Didn't Kirkpatrick used to play for them?

Other than the fact that it isn't Archie's alma mater, they are in a conference with very limited TV coverage, his recruits have trouble staying on the court so he is usually shorthanded and there is no chance of them garnering a 1 or 2 seed, I would say that the situations are sort of similar.

And 90-61, yeah who would want to leave that?

[Emp]

Is it possible to find a room for the Dayton obsessive posters to play amongst themselves?

[X-man]

Is it possible to find a room for the Dayton obsessive posters to play amongst themselves?

I get your point. But I do read the vd board periodically, and that post jumped out at me as particularly weird. Thought I'd share.

[Masterofreality]

I get your point. But I do read the vd board periodically, and that post jumped out at me as particularly weird. Thought I'd share.

I'm afraid if I went there, I'd come back with some horrible disease. #RedScare?

[Xavier]

What is the VD thing all about?

[X-Fan]

What is the VD thing all about?

Poor life choices

[94GRAD]

What is the VD thing all about?

The Raw Dog life!

[X-band '01]

What is the VD thing all about?

The logo they lifted from Dino's Trucking.

[xudash]

I'm afraid if I went there, I'd come back with some horrible disease. #RedScare?

UDPRIDE was a lost opportunity when casting took place for One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest.

[Masterofreality]

What is the VD thing all about?

This piece of comedy...that happens to be the visible logo of the school now:
1912

[Murph85]

Two things.

First. That logo does look like VD. Good stuff.

I occasionally look at the VD Cryer site. Good laughs. They are complaining that X posters are obsessed and frequently use "dillusional" too often. In the same thread they are convincing themselves Archie would not leave blah blah. Mention is made that he doesn't need more than his $2.5 million dollar contract as the job is great ... Google and in 10 seconds find he would be leaving $650,000. Use dillusional too much ?

[Titanxman04]

Two things.

First. That logo does look like VD. Good stuff.

I occasionally look at the VD Cryer site. Good laughs. They are complaining that X posters are obsessed and frequently use "dillusional" too often. In the same thread they are convincing themselves Archie would not leave blah blah. Mention is made that he doesn't need more than his $2.5 million dollar contract as the job is great ... Google and in 10 seconds find he would be leaving $650,000. Use dillusional too much ?

Yes, X posters are totally not obsessed with dayton...except for every two weeks when we have a new thread about their fan bases.

Grant it, I know I mention that with the avatar that I have...but then again, that avatar is just hilarious.

[xudash]

I tend to believe that there is a difference between being obsessed and being entertained. In fact, if UC fans were like VD fans, we would probably be doing more of this with UC fandom.

Having material available for entertainment purposes is very different from having an obsession. First and foremost, there isn't anything to be obsessed about when it comes to UD: we have a superior program in a much better conference and a recent head-to-head result involving a 29 point drubbing.

If those poor idiots are dumb enough to represent - and believe - that Archie Miller is making $2.5mm a year, THAT is worth bringing up here for free laughs purposes:

Xavier Big East Chris Mack $1,109,453 -- $1,109,453 --

Dayton A-10 Archie Miller $652,049 -- $652,049 --

Maybe the balance comes from his TV show and commercials for Bubba Momma's Italian Restaurant in Dayton.

Let's not get too caught up in the standard Internet babble about all this, stuff like "we've moved on from VD; stop obsessing with VD, etc."

It's not like we bring them up here everyday. It's just that they do provide plenty of free entertainment when they go off like this.

Little Brother, having another Little Brother fever moment, and it's pretty funny.

[maketewahXalum]

Just to follow up from Dash's response above, here are the compensation numbers reported on each school's filed Federal 990 that are on public record:

2013 990 (covers 7/1/2012 - 6/30/2013)
Dayton (Ryan J Miller) = $652,049
Xavier (Chris L Mack) = $1,109,453
------------------------------------------------------------------
2014 990 (covers 7/1/2013 - 6/30/2014)
Dayton (Ryan J Miller) = $692,547
Xavier (Chris L Mack) = $1,186,661
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
For the tax period of 7/1/2012 - 6/30/2013, Coach Mack made $457,404 more than Archie.

For the tax period of 7/1/2013 - 6/30/2014, Coach Mack made $494,114 more than Archie.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You be the judge on whether or not you think that $2.5 million salary figure is accurate or not.

[deepX]

Just for clarification, Form 990 compensation information is reported for the calendar years ending in the organizations fiscal year.
This means that that 2013 calendar year compensation is reported in the Form 990 for the 7/1/13-6/30/14. Your comparison may still be valid, just slightly different time periods.

deepX

[paulxu]

This'll get fixed soon enough. OSU will hire him when Thad retires, pay him $2 million...and everybody will be scratching their heads.

[bobbiemcgee]

UDPRIDE was a lost opportunity when casting took place for One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest.

UD fan on the HLOH board saying UD would not join the BE bcuz the games are on Fox and Ud admin does not like their politics.

[xubrew]

Thinking that Archie Miller would never leave is delusional. Every coach leaves every place eventually. But, if they're smart, they should be aware of this and shouldn't have any problem hiring a good coach once he's gone. The question I have is how smart they are, and how aware are they of who they can get that's good. Butler is good at this. VCU is good at this. George Mason is terrible at this. Tulsa may actually be even worse. We'll see how good Dayton is when that time comes.

[GoMuskies]

UD fan on the HLOH board saying UD would not join the BE bcuz the games are on Fox and Ud admin does not like their politics.


That's a good point. Did anyone watch the GOP debate on Fox Sports 1 the other day?

[bobbiemcgee]

Megyn Kelley and Raf?

[xubrew]

UD fan on the HLOH board saying UD would not join the BE bcuz the games are on Fox and Ud admin does not like their politics.

Uh huh. That's an interesting theory. That might be the most ridiculous assessment I've ever heard.

[Milhouse]

Thinking that Archie Miller would never leave is delusional. Every coach leaves every place eventually. But, if they're smart, they should be aware of this and shouldn't have any problem hiring a good coach once he's gone. The question I have is how smart they are, and how aware are they of who they can get that's good. Butler is good at this. VCU is good at this. George Mason is terrible at this. Tulsa may actually be even worse. We'll see how good Dayton is when that time comes.

Verdict is still out on Holtman....

[XUFan09]

UD fan on the HLOH board saying UD would not join the BE bcuz the games are on Fox and Ud admin does not like their politics.
Lol I remember that. He kept claiming it too.

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[xudash]

UD fan on the HLOH board saying UD would not join the BE bcuz the games are on Fox and Ud admin does not like their politics.

His handle is "Murphy." Perhaps the dumbest and most delusional of the bunch. Some of his fellow Flyer fans had to come over to shout him down, which just adds to them spending way too much time on a BE board.

The world according to murph:

- UD is swimming in cash.
- UD is turning away applicants left and right.
- UD doesn't bow to any broadcaster (they kind of operate on the same level as ND (with NBC), or not).
- The A10 is perfect for UD.

That last bullet is true, as they can celebrate beating St. Louis up and then talk about making it into the Top 25 - maybe. Juggernaut. Just a juggernaut, which happens to pay Archie $2.5 trillion a year, while providing him a personal G6 as he settles into coaching at Dayton for life.

Love it.

BTW, if I recall correctly, I believe they had an AD change not to long ago, and they may have elevated someone from within. I suspect that means someone with limited hiring experience. UD, of all places, has proven that it can be clueless when it comes to hiring a coach. The jury is certainly out on that one.
-

[XUFan09]

Verdict is still out on Holtman....
Why? He's doing a good job this season with defensively deficient personnel that can score in bunches (should be a familiar recent narrative to Xavier fans). They just never deserved a top 10 ranking.

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[Juice]

Thinking that Archie Miller would never leave is delusional. Every coach leaves every place eventually. But, if they're smart, they should be aware of this and shouldn't have any problem hiring a good coach once he's gone. The question I have is how smart they are, and how aware are they of who they can get that's good. Butler is good at this. VCU is good at this. George Mason is terrible at this. Tulsa may actually be even worse. We'll see how good Dayton is when that time comes.

Tulsa is definitely worse. Not only will they lose more games, they'll end up on NCAA probation after Haith is gone.

[xubrew]

Verdict is still out on Holtman....

I don't think it is. I was convinced he was really good before he even got to Butler. Last year was his first season, the program was in a tailspin, and they were noticeably better than the year before and exceeded just about every expectations. They're good again this year. They're not top a top fifteen team, so it makes sense that they haven't beaten any top fifteen teams. But, they have just one loss outside of the top fifteen, and that was at Creighton.

Now, having said that, they are in a stretch where they need to start winning. They need to be able to beat teams like Marquette, Saint John's, and Georgetown, who are clearly not top fifteen teams.

[bobbiemcgee]

- The A10 is perfect for UD
-

He got that one right. Should be an annual cakewalk to the title and autobid with no X, Butler or Temple. But they can't even seem to get that right. They love beating up on RPI 200+ (except LaSuck) in hs gyms.

[Xville]

Tulsa is definitely worse. Not only will they lose more games, they'll end up on NCAA probation after Haith is gone.

I don't think there is a person I hate more than Frank Haith. What a complete scumbag of a human being. Gets caught at Miami, and gets at the time a better job at Mizzou. He absolutely destroys that program (my second team) and then hightails it out of there before getting caught cheating. He now is at his third spot where he will ruin everything that Danny Manning had built there at Tulsa.

Not only is he a cheater, but he's a terrible freaking coach even while cheating. I hate him more than Dayton and UC combined...F him.

[xubrew]

I don't think there is a person I hate more than Frank Haith. What a complete scumbag of a human being. Gets caught at Miami, and gets at the time a better job at Mizzou. He absolutely destroys that program (my second team) and then hightails it out of there before getting caught cheating. He now is at his third spot where he will ruin everything that Danny Manning had built there at Tulsa.

Not only is he a cheater, but he's a terrible freaking coach even while cheating. I hate him more than Dayton and UC combined...F him.

I don't understand how he keeps managing to fall upwards. Miami was a mess when he left and took over Mizzou, who was at the time a top ten caliber team. He runs them into the ground to the point of not even being an NIT team, and he takes over at Tulsa who had just been to the NCAA Tournament, was in the top fifty, and had so much back that it looked like they were set up for success. Now he's running them into the ground.

Some people should come with a surgeon general's warning, and he's one of them.

Isaiah Thomas is another, but at least he had a hall of fame career as a player, so I can somewhat understand the allure. But, his coaching/administrative career has been less than HOF quality. He wrecked the Pacers. He wrecked the Knicks. He wrecked the entire Continental Basketball Association which had been a successful league for decades. He goes to Florida International and gets them an APR ban. But, somehow he keeps getting hired.

No one should EVER hire either one of those guys to do anything. Yet, they keep getting hired. I don't get it.

[xubrew]

Just watch. That will be Dayton's next hire. Either Isaiah Thomas or Frank Haith. Then, they'll finish in the middle of a conference full of programs that have half the resources and support that they do, yet they won't make any sort of a change. It will never occur to them that since they have twice as much as everyone else that they should be dominating, and that any coach of any value at all would be able to.

[GoMuskies]

Well, Dayton would hire Coach K away from Duke, but the VD administration does not like his politics.

[X-band '01]

UD fan on the HLOH board saying UD would not join the BE bcuz the games are on Fox and Ud admin does not like their politics.

Public reps since I can't do it privately.

[LA Muskie]

I wish people would stop trusting the Internet and IRS reporting when it comes to coaches' comp. Sometimes it's accurate. Sometimes it's not. My understanding is that Mack's is pretty close (but not 100% accurate) because most of his pay/benefits flow through XU or affiliates. That's probably not the case for Archie. Because while I very much doubt he makes $2.5mm, I equally doubt he makes $650k.


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[LA Muskie]

Dayton's last 2 hires were Archie Miller and Brian Gregory. Archie was a home run hire. Gregory was a rising star hire from the Tom Izzo tree. He may not have knocked it out of the park, but a program could do much, much worse (many do). I'd probably call him a single that, if he had hustled out of the box, could have been stretched to a double. Not great but he got on base.


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[GoMuskies]

Yes, but unless Chris Mack has a brother in coaching, Dayton will have no idea where to find the next homerun.

[XUFan09]

Dayton's last 2 hires were Archie Miller and Brian Gregory. Archie was a home run hire. Gregory was a rising star hire from the Tom Izzo tree. He may not have knocked it out of the park, but a program could do much, much worse (many do). I'd probably call him a single that, if he had hustled out of the box, could have been stretched to a double. Not great but he got on base.


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Yeah, Gregory was a decent coach to have for a period, but Dayton held onto him too long with the stupid contract they had given him. Georgia Tech taking him off their hands was a blessing, for sure.

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[xubrew]

Dayton's last 2 hires were Archie Miller and Brian Gregory. Archie was a home run hire. Gregory was a rising star hire from the Tom Izzo tree. He may not have knocked it out of the park, but a program could do much, much worse (many do). I'd probably call him a single that, if he had hustled out of the box, could have been stretched to a double. Not great but he got on base.


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LA, it's not so much the hire of Brian Gregory. It's that they went so long without making a change. Look at the A10. Look at what Dayton has, and compare it to what the other programs in that league have. Dayton should be dominating that league. Yet, teams with half the resources, half the revenue, and half the support outperformed them. They were in the middle of the pack almost all the time. The only program that had comparable resources and support was us, and we did dominate the league. It's not that Dayton never finished first (because that would have involved beating us out). It's that they routinely finished seventh. When I look around college basketball and I see all the programs and coaches that completely outperformed Dayton under Brian Gregory despite having way less going for them, I can't help but think they would have been better off with someone else. Am I wrong?? They now have someone else. They are now better off.

[chico]

Dayton's last 2 hires were Archie Miller and Brian Gregory. Archie was a home run hire. Gregory was a rising star hire from the Tom Izzo tree. He may not have knocked it out of the park, but a program could do much, much worse (many do). I'd probably call him a single that, if he had hustled out of the box, could have been stretched to a double. Not great but he got on base.


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I disagree on Gregory. Purnell brought UD back from the depths of the O'Brien era and at least made them respectable. Gregory really didn't do much, and I can't recall a player who was better when he left than he was when he got there. He absolutely ruined Sean Finn. 2 NCAA tournaments in 8 years - 1 in his last 7 years.

UD has a history of picking the wrong assistant coach - first O'Brien (Pittino assistant) then Gregory.

[X-band '01]

Georgia Tech has to now be asking if it's 2018 yet. Mike Bobinski needs to put Gregory out of his misery and make Archie Miller an offer he can't refuse.

[GoMuskies]

Eh, Georgia Tech is kind of a shitty job. Archie should do better or wait.

[LA Muskie]

I agree with that. He wasn't so much a bad hire as a bad retention. Does anyone know when they gave him his contract extension? I'm guessing they "paid the man" and it bit them in the ass. But I'm curious when and for how much they mortgaged their future.

After 5 years on Tom Izzo's bench (in which they advanced to the Final 4 three times, winning once), Gregory made the NCAA Tourney in his 1st year on the job at Dayton (finishing 1st in conference with a 12-4 record, 24-9 overall). He then had a borderline respectable 2nd year (10-6 in conference but a horrible OOC left them just 18-11 with no post-searon berth).

Then the wheels pretty much fell off. Except for their 2010 "run" where they went 11-5 in conference (27-8 overall) and advanced to the 2nd round of the NCAA Tourney, they drastically under-performed.

I hadn't looked that closely at his numbers before my prior post. He wasn't a single that should have been stretched into a double. He was a hard swing by Dayton, a nubber to third, and a late throw to first resulting in a close single.

[LA Muskie]

Georgia Tech has to now be asking if it's 2018 yet. Mike Bobinski needs to put Gregory out of his misery and make Archie Miller an offer he can't refuse.
Archie will end up somewhere much better than GaTech (sorry BoBo...)

[xudash]

Yes, but unless Chris Mack has a brother in coaching, Dayton will have no idea where to find the next homerun.

I know we're polar opposites on football, but that is damn funny.

[XUFan09]

I agree with that. He wasn't so much a bad hire as a bad retention. Does anyone know when they gave him his contract extension? I'm guessing they "paid the man" and it bit them in the ass. But I'm curious when and for how much they mortgaged their future.

After 5 years on Tom Izzo's bench (in which they advanced to the Final 4 three times, winning once), Gregory made the NCAA Tourney in his 1st year on the job at Dayton (finishing 1st in conference with a 12-4 record, 24-9 overall). He then had a borderline respectable 2nd year (10-6 in conference but a horrible OOC left them just 18-11 with no post-searon berth).

Then the wheels pretty much fell off. Except for their 2010 "run" where they went 11-5 in conference (27-8 overall) and advanced to the 2nd round of the NCAA Tourney, they drastically under-performed.

I hadn't looked that closely at his numbers before my prior post. He wasn't a single that should have been stretched into a double. He was a hard swing by Dayton, a nubber to third, and a late throw to first resulting in a close single.
I believe Gregory's contract ran through 2018, and the buyout was really expensive.

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[X-band '01]

Eh, Georgia Tech is kind of a shitty job. Archie should do better or wait.


Archie will end up somewhere much better than GaTech (sorry BoBo...)

We can all dream, can't we?

[Snipe]

I have always had a soft spot for Dayton. Used to follow and root for all the local teams. I would love to see NKU do well for instance.

Now that we don't play them it is even easier to root for Dayton. They have been a fun team to watch, especially their tournament success.

I think that Archie is fantastic and he is only getting better. I think that Dayton can be a National Program in the A-10. They have the opportunity to do what we did and become the Flagship.

Being the Flagship of the A-10 Conference was pretty sweet, and I enjoy watching Dayton's continued success. I think Archie is finding it easier and easier to recruit, and every year his pay is going to go up. A million bucks goes far in Dayton. Archie can be a God in Dayton. They have one of the best fan bases in college ball. 13,000 screaming fans. A packed UD arena is a great recruiting tool.

I know that we don't play them right now and we might not for the next few years. I am fine with that. But if we did play them it would be a great ticket to have and a huge game. Fans want to see games like that. We got to play them on a neutral court this year and they are the best statistical victory on our schedule measured by the RPI.

Could Archie stay in Dayton? Sure. He could make a lot of money with incredible job security. He would be immensely popular and the toast of the town. If recruiting keeps up he could get that program on auto-pilot. Gee, I wonder where he could look for a model? Right down I-75 at Xavier!

I loved our time in the A-10. At the time it was the best thing that ever happened to us. Dayton can rule that league. We had a Player of the Year in that league, and we watched at two other A-10 programs had Player of the Year as well. You can recruit in that league. You can be ranked #1 in the nation in that league. You can get a 1 seed and go to the Final Four in that league, and dare to dream to win it all.

Dayton is in a fantastic situation. I remember Calipari at Memphis saying "be careful what you wish for" when Cincinnati left for the Big East. Cincinnati hasn't done much since then, but Calipari was taking Memphis to the National Championship game.

Like I said, you don't have to look far to see what they could do, just look at us. Look at Gonzaga. Look at Memphis. Look at what UC used to do in a high mid league. Look at what Butler did in the Horizon. Can Archie Miller do that at Dayton? Absolutely.

And why not? And why should I not root for that? Good for them. And when we do play them, it would behove us both to be National Programs.

We have played more NCAA games than any other program not to have made the Final Four. Yet all these years I have been dreaming about the Final Four. Am I delusional? Probably. Fan is indeed short for fanatic. Why criticize Flyer Fans for living the dream? And here we sit on the precipice of potential greatness, and my delusions of grandeur grow ever grander. I want the TITLE! Shouldn't Dayton fans want the same thing?

LETS GO FLYERS!!!!!!! WOOT WOOT!!!

[maketewahXalum]

I wish people would stop trusting the Internet and IRS reporting when it comes to coaches' comp. Sometimes it's accurate. Sometimes it's not. My understanding is that Mack's is pretty close (but not 100% accurate) because most of his pay/benefits flow through XU or affiliates. That's probably not the case for Archie. Because while I very much doubt he makes $2.5mm, I equally doubt he makes $650k.


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I see your point, and I am sure the listed $692k I listed as his reported compensation is probably a bit lower the sum of his total compensation. But, you have to realize that the period of that salary was from 7/1/2013 thru 6/30/2014 . They made the Elite 8 2 months prior to that period end date. I was not stating that is what his current salary is, which your post seems to suggest. I am sure he makes close to $1M-$1.2M now. But prior to his Elite 8 run, he hadn't done anything noteworthy to command a salary higher than $700k. Hell, that was his first NCAA tournament appearance at Dayton.

[LA Muskie]

Ah... Yeah I didn't read that closely. You're probably right.


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[chico]

I think Miller's going to bide his time until a job he really wants opens up. I've also heard he really wants to make sure he is ready to make the jump to a major program before taking a job, which is pretty smart if true.

But he has it pretty good in Dayton. If you can take them to the tourney every couple years they'll love you up there, so a Final 8 has already made him a legend. He pretty much rules that town. What you don't see in that compensation package is the country club membership (and NCR is a great course), all the endorsement deals (especially local ones that he doesn't have to share with a coach 5 miles away), the fact the probably never has to pay for a meal if he wanted to, and it's not a bad deal. The University has made a commitment to the program, and puts money into it, so you know you'll have the support of the administration.

Of course, Dayton is not the greatest place to live. For a young up and comer, though, it's really not that bad of a deal.

[xubrew]

I have always had a soft spot for Dayton. Used to follow and root for all the local teams. I would love to see NKU do well for instance.

Now that we don't play them it is even easier to root for Dayton. They have been a fun team to watch, especially their tournament success.

I think that Archie is fantastic and he is only getting better. I think that Dayton can be a National Program in the A-10. They have the opportunity to do what we did and become the Flagship.

Being the Flagship of the A-10 Conference was pretty sweet, and I enjoy watching Dayton's continued success. I think Archie is finding it easier and easier to recruit, and every year his pay is going to go up. A million bucks goes far in Dayton. Archie can be a God in Dayton. They have one of the best fan bases in college ball. 13,000 screaming fans. A packed UD arena is a great recruiting tool.

I know that we don't play them right now and we might not for the next few years. I am fine with that. But if we did play them it would be a great ticket to have and a huge game. Fans want to see games like that. We got to play them on a neutral court this year and they are the best statistical victory on our schedule measured by the RPI.

Could Archie stay in Dayton? Sure. He could make a lot of money with incredible job security. He would be immensely popular and the toast of the town. If recruiting keeps up he could get that program on auto-pilot. Gee, I wonder where he could look for a model? Right down I-75 at Xavier!

I loved our time in the A-10. At the time it was the best thing that ever happened to us. Dayton can rule that league. We had a Player of the Year in that league, and we watched at two other A-10 programs had Player of the Year as well. You can recruit in that league. You can be ranked #1 in the nation in that league. You can get a 1 seed and go to the Final Four in that league, and dare to dream to win it all.

Dayton is in a fantastic situation. I remember Calipari at Memphis saying "be careful what you wish for" when Cincinnati left for the Big East. Cincinnati hasn't done much since then, but Calipari was taking Memphis to the National Championship game.

Like I said, you don't have to look far to see what they could do, just look at us. Look at Gonzaga. Look at Memphis. Look at what UC used to do in a high mid league. Look at what Butler did in the Horizon. Can Archie Miller do that at Dayton? Absolutely.

And why not? And why should I not root for that? Good for them. And when we do play them, it would behove us both to be National Programs.

We have played more NCAA games than any other program not to have made the Final Four. Yet all these years I have been dreaming about the Final Four. Am I delusional? Probably. Fan is indeed short for fanatic. Why criticize Flyer Fans for living the dream? And here we sit on the precipice of potential greatness, and my delusions of grandeur grow ever grander. I want the TITLE! Shouldn't Dayton fans want the same thing?

LETS GO FLYERS!!!!!!! WOOT WOOT!!!

As I've said many times before, I want to play them regularly as well, but for different reasons.

One is a more general reason. College basketball frustrates me in November and December. The arenas are half empty, the ratings are terrible, and the games are pathetic. More than half the games are buy games. Yet, you do get some gems. Maryland v Georgetown was awesome. Virginia v GW was awesome. Some of the Tip Off Marathon games were really good. If there were more good games, then there would be more interest. I don't think diehard fans understand this. They are their own frame of reference. They don't realize that the casual fan needs a reason to be excited in order to be interested. Buy games just aren't interesting. West Virginia v Pitt should play. Kansas v Mizzou should play. Texas v Texas A&M should play. Maryland v Georgetown finally are playing. Kentucky v Indiana should play. BYU and Utah just ended their series. There is no game that either team could schedule that would be as interesting to the fans as scheduling each other. It's not even close. To say "we don't need to play" attitude is not good for college basketball. You need games at that time of year to make it more interesting to more people, and rivalry games are the way to go.

Secondly, to play one game like that on the road in OOC would help us out heading in to conference play. Learning to play in a hostile environment is like learning to drive. The only way you can learn to do it is to get out there and do it. It's better to learn that in November or December than once conference play begins. The Big East teams that played a rivalry game in a hostile environment as a road team (Providence @ Rhody, Seton Hall @ Rutgers, Georgetown @ Maryland, Nova @ Joe's etc) all won their conference road openers. I don't think that's a coincidence. So, even if you lose the game, I still think it gets you more ready more soon than just playing another buy game. Dayton and Cincinnati are hostile environments for us. There are other good OOC road games we can play, but none will actually feel like a conference game the way playing at UC or playing at UD would. I'd love it if we alternated so we have one of them at home and one of them on the road every year.

....and losing it wouldn't kill us. Hell, it really wouldn't even set us back. It would just fade into the background once conference play began. We've lost at UD and earned a protected seed. We've lost at UD and made the Elite Eight. We don't have "everything to lose and nothing to gain" from playing it. It's actually the kind of game we should be seeking out. An OOC game that feels like a conference game.

[Section 200]

So if we play at Dayton, Sumner doesn't get knocked out at Nova? I didn't realize that we lost to Nova since we played UD in Orlando. I hope Mack takes that under consideration for next year.

[XUMIOH12]

As I've said many times before, I want to play them regularly as well, but for different reasons.

One is a more general reason. College basketball frustrates me in November and December. The arenas are half empty, the ratings are terrible, and the games are pathetic. More than half the games are buy games. Yet, you do get some gems. Maryland v Georgetown was awesome. Virginia v GW was awesome. Some of the Tip Off Marathon games were really good. If there were more good games, then there would be more interest. I don't think diehard fans understand this. They are their own frame of reference. They don't realize that the casual fan needs a reason to be excited in order to be interested. Buy games just aren't interesting. West Virginia v Pitt should play. Kansas v Mizzou should play. Texas v Texas A&M should play. Maryland v Georgetown finally are playing. Kentucky v Indiana should play. BYU and Utah just ended their series. There is no game that either team could schedule that would be as interesting to the fans as scheduling each other. It's not even close. To say "we don't need to play" attitude is not good for college basketball. You need games at that time of year to make it more interesting to more people, and rivalry games are the way to go.

Secondly, to play one game like that on the road in OOC would help us out heading in to conference play. Learning to play in a hostile environment is like learning to drive. The only way you can learn to do it is to get out there and do it. It's better to learn that in November or December than once conference play begins. The Big East teams that played a rivalry game in a hostile environment as a road team (Providence @ Rhody, Seton Hall @ Rutgers, Georgetown @ Maryland, Nova @ Joe's etc) all won their conference road openers. I don't think that's a coincidence. So, even if you lose the game, I still think it gets you more ready more soon than just playing another buy game. Dayton and Cincinnati are hostile environments for us. There are other good OOC road games we can play, but none will actually feel like a conference game the way playing at UC or playing at UD would. I'd love it if we alternated so we have one of them at home and one of them on the road every year.

....and losing it wouldn't kill us. Hell, it really wouldn't even set us back. It would just fade into the background once conference play began. We've lost at UD and earned a protected seed. We've lost at UD and made the Elite Eight. We don't have "everything to lose and nothing to gain" from playing it. It's actually the kind of game we should be seeking out. An OOC game that feels like a conference game.

Come on, youre better than that. Seton Hall playing at Rutgers is not a hostile environment. Rutgers sucks and the stadium was maybe a little over half full.

[xubrew]

Come on, youre better than that. Seton Hall playing at Rutgers is not a hostile environment. Rutgers sucks and the stadium was maybe a little over half full.

Uhhhh, it is when they play Seton Hall. Have you ever watched that game?? I don't see how you can say that's it's not hostile when those two play. It was not half full. It was sold out. It was actually filled beyond capacity. Yes, Rutgers does suck, but it was still an intense environment leading up to the game.

[xubrew]

So if we play at Dayton, Sumner doesn't get knocked out at Nova? I didn't realize that we lost to Nova since we played UD in Orlando. I hope Mack takes that under consideration for next year.

Gee, got any more red herrings or straw men??

I gave five examples of Big East teams that play those kinds of games, and how it appears to have gotten them ready faster. In general, I think playing games like that do help. Look at Providence. Do you think that playing at Rhode Island did nothing to get them ready?

[XUMIOH12]

Uhhhh, it is when they play Seton Hall. Have you ever watched that game?? It was not half full. It was sold out. It was actually filled beyond capacity. What the hell are you talking about it being half full for that game??

Uhhhhh, the announced attendance was 5,631 in an 8,000 seat stadium, with a fair (not a ton) of seton hall fans. I watched the game. What the hell are you talking about it being filled beyond capacity??

[xubrew]

Uhhhhh, the announced attendance was 5,631 in an 8,000 seat stadium, with a fair (not a ton) of seton hall fans. I watched the game. What the hell are you talking about it being filled beyond capacity??

Uhhhh, from the box score........

of the game from the previous year.



A very big touche to you.


But, I stand by my original point even if that was a crap example. I think playing in a hostile road environment gets teams acclimated more quickly for future games in hostile environments. I also think it excites the general/casual fan more, which creates more interest for more people.

[XUMIOH12]

Uhhhh, from the box score........

of the game from the previous year.



A very big touche to you.


But, I stand by my original point even if that was a crap example. I think playing in a hostile road environment gets teams acclimated more quickly for future games in hostile environments. I also think it excites the general/casual fan more, which creates more interest for more people.

An even bigger touche to you, since it was the box score from this season....http://www.shupirates.com/sports/m-baskbl/stats/2015-2016/8ru.html .

But, regardless, even if that is a bad example, your point is correct. Good teams can win on the road, regardless of environment.

[waggy]

So does this all mean Georgetown is elite?

[xubrew]

An even bigger touche to you, since it was the box score from this season....http://www.shupirates.com/sports/m-baskbl/stats/2015-2016/8ru.html .

But, regardless, even if that is a bad example, your point is correct. Good teams can win on the road, regardless of environment.

How's that a touche' to me?? Doesn't touche' mean acknowledging that the other person wins?? You were right. I was looking at the wrong year.

[OTRMUSKIE]

Talked to my Dayton friend last night and he said he has heard from a good source that Roy Williams is considering retirement after this year. He said Archie will be their #1. No idea who the source is and honestly don't care. Just thought I mention that was a rumor going around FWIW.

[GoMuskies]

UNC will hire an NC State guy? LOL no

[xubrew]

UNC should hire Larry Brown.

As stupid as they've been through all this, they may actually do it!

[GoMuskies]

George Karl is about to be available.

If Roy can hang in there a few more years, King Rice is probably the next in line. King Rice needs to take the next step up the ladder and prove he can win at a bit higher level first, though.

[Masterofreality]

Archie will be gone very soon...and then the dump will implode upon itself and become a bigger zit on the face of the earth than now.

But they're in that Elite A10 that everyone loves....there's that!:lol:

[Milhouse]

so much uncertainty with UNC and those sanctions...not sure how great of a move that would be for a guy like ARchie.

[xubrew]

At the top level, just about any job that opens is opening because things aren't going well. You're almost never stepping into a situation where everything is running smoothly.

Now, having said that, I don't think UNC will go after Archie Miller if/when it opens. They'll probably want "A North Carolina Guy" or at least they'll want a guy that's already been successful at a power conference program. They're the kind of program that can go after someone like Frank Martin or Andy Enfield, or someone like that. I'm not saying it will be either of those two, but their last hires came from Notre Dame and Kansas. They can take, and have taken, big coaches from big programs.

In regards to Archie Miller, a school like Minnesota is probably more realistic than North Carolina.

[xudash]

Archie will be gone very soon...and then the dump will implode upon itself and become a bigger zit on the face of the earth than now.

But they're in that Elite A10 that everyone loves....there's that!:lol:

I have to imagine that the narrative on UDPRIDE is focused on how UD finally has risen to the point where it can control the A10; where it can win the regular season "crown" and otherwise win the conference championship. That narrative most likely comes with ZERO mention of being able to do that with Xavier and Temple out of the way (Butler wasn't there long enough for the sweater vests to remember them).

[Masterofreality]

In regards to Archie Miller, a school like Minnesota is probably more realistic than North Carolina.

Or Ohio State...the very second that Beaknose's back gives out.

[GoMuskies]

By the way, if Archie leaves after this year for a Minnesota-type job, Dayton might actually be a nice stop on the road to UNC for King Rice. You can win at Dayton, which is a nice attribute for a coach in the rise.

[ammtd34]

They're the kind of program that can go after someone like Frank Martin or Andy Enfield, or someone like that.

Is Enfield in higher demand than Archie?

[X-band '01]

but their last hires came from Notre Dame and Kansas.

Matt Doherty and Roy Williams both had UNC ties - it's not like they were exclusively part of the Notre Dame/Kansas families.

[BandAid]

I spoke with an IU fan this weekend who is a friend. He wanted to know my opinions about Mack and Archie. He said these were the two names that come up most frequently in the IU fandom regarding Crean replacements. But, with IU turning it around a bit Crean isn't as out the door as he was over the summer.

[xubrew]

Is Enfield in higher demand than Archie?

In some circles. USC sucked a lot worse when he took them over, and he's got them into the rankings. He also took a program to the Sweet Sixteen in just their second year of being eligible for the tournament.

But, the biggest thing whether it's fair or not is that he is currently at a power five program. Archie Miller took an NIT caliber program and turned them into a solid NCAA Tournament caliber program in a conference where he had twice the resources and support than virtually everyone else in the league.

Andy Enfield took over a program that was among the worst of all the conference programs, and nowhere near the top 100, and dealing with its own probation issues, and turned them into what they are now.

The UNCs of the world would put a ton more value on the latter.

Having said that, I personally like Archie Miller more, but I can see why most would prefer Enfield.

[Muskied]

In regards to Archie Miller, a school like Minnesota is probably more realistic than North Carolina.

I can see how Carolina will be tough, but a mid tier team is not getting Archie. He will be a top 5 name for 98% of the job openings, and will get one...he's not going to settle for something like Minnesota especially since his wife won't want to live there and that's probably the most important criteria for him. When that happens? Who knows...it could have happened last year, I thought he was gone to Florida. It could be 5 more years if the right job doesn't open.

[xubrew]

I can see how Carolina will be tough, but a mid tier team is not getting Archie. He will be a top 5 name for 98% of the job openings, and will get one...he's not going to settle for something like Minnesota especially since his wife won't want to live there and that's probably the most important criteria for him. When that happens? Who knows...it could have happened last year, I thought he was gone to Florida. It could be 5 more years if the right job doesn't open.

Okay, what job then?? It's probably not going to be Minnesota specifically, but it'll likely be a program that's in that situation. It's rare that a job opens where you're not having to settle for something. That's why jobs open. Because things aren't going well.

Ohio State was on probation when Thad Matta left. Arizona wasn't exactly on top of the world when Miller first got there.

If you want to move up, you're going to have to settle for a situation that isn't ideal. That's why jobs at that level open. If the situation were ideal, then it wouldn't be open in the first place.

[D-West & PO-Z]

Okay, what job then?? It's probably not going to be Minnesota specifically, but it'll likely be a program that's in that situation. It's rare that a job opens where you're not having to settle for something. That's why jobs open. Because things aren't going well.

Ohio State was on probation when Thad Matta left. Arizona wasn't exactly on top of the world when Miller first got there.

If you want to move up, you're going to have to settle for a situation that isn't ideal. That's why jobs at that level open. If the situation were ideal, then it wouldn't be open in the first place.

I dont think it is about situation at the school I think it is going to the right school. I dont think Archie would leave for a team like Minnesota either.

I think he would leave for a team that has shown dedication to basketball, a team who is an upper 1/3 team of a power conference, not a middle to lower level team in a power conference.

[D-West & PO-Z]

Jobs open up for other reasons than bad situations, coach leaves for even better program, coach retires, good basketball school with under performing coach, etc. I think he probably likes UD enough to be patient enough to leave for the right school/situation.

[GIMMFD]

Jobs open up for other reasons than bad situations, coach leaves for even better program, coach retires, good basketball school with under performing coach, etc. I think he probably likes UD enough to be patient enough to leave for the right school/situation.

I just can't realistically see anything opening up for him this year, or maybe even next. It'll be interesting when he does decide to move on, I think he's a good coach and has the ability to land a big job. I just wonder what will happen to the Flyers program AFTER he leaves. Does it go into a dumpster fire, or do they get another quality hire?

[D-West & PO-Z]

I just can't realistically see anything opening up for him this year, or maybe even next. It'll be interesting when he does decide to move on, I think he's a good coach and has the ability to land a big job. I just wonder what will happen to the Flyers program AFTER he leaves. Does it go into a dumpster fire, or do they get another quality hire?

I dont see necessarily why he'd be in any rush, but you never know where a coaches priorities are or what is important to them or what they are thinking. Who knows?

[Muskied]

I dont think it is about situation at the school I think it is going to the right school. I dont think Archie would leave for a team like Minnesota either.

I think he would leave for a team that has shown dedication to basketball, a team who is an upper 1/3 team of a power conference, not a middle to lower level team in a power conference.

Agreed. Texas, Florida, Wisconsin (sort of), St. Johns, Arizona State, Alabama, Tennessee, Missouri, California, Marquette, Wake Forest, Auburn were all filled within the last 2 years. Yes, I think all these jobs are better than a Minnesota because I think you can compete for a conference championship at all of them and/or they are better places to live..and within this list, I see Archie targeting the top 3 or 4, much like Mack would. Who cares why they are available, fact is if they pay him, he can win there, and his wife will relocate there..there will be another dozen available and 4-5 within that where there could be dual interest. I expect he will be VERY selective, and he can be..again, much like our own coach.

[xubrew]

Jobs open up for other reasons than bad situations, coach leaves for even better program, coach retires, good basketball school with under performing coach, etc. I think he probably likes UD enough to be patient enough to leave for the right school/situation.

They do, but you're talking about maybe one per year, if that. Last year Florida and Iowa State opened. Those are the only two I can think of that fit the description of being power conference programs that weren't broken. Probably Texas as well. There were three last year, and that's probably at least two more than what normally open.

UCLA probably fit that description when they hired Alford. No one at UCLA could stand Ben Howland.

K State probably fit that description when Frank Martin left. He left because the AD was driving him nuts.

Honestly, those are the only examples I can think of in the last five or six years that were already set up for success. The vast majority of jobs that open are open because something needs fixing.

[xubrew]

Agreed. Texas, Florida, Wisconsin (sort of), St. Johns, Arizona State, Alabama, Tennessee, Missouri, California, Marquette, Wake Forest, Auburn were all filled within the last 2 years. Yes, I think all these jobs are better than a Minnesota because I think you can compete for a conference championship at all of them and/or they are better places to live..and within this list, I see Archie targeting the top 3 or 4, much like Mack would. Who cares why they are available, fact is if they pay him, he can win there, and his wife will relocate there..there will be another dozen available and 4-5 within that where there could be dual interest. I expect he will be VERY selective, and he can be..again, much like our own coach.

Are these seriously your examples of programs that were in good shape when they opened?? I don't see hardly any of them being any different than Minnesota right now. Keep in mind when Minnesota last opened, they had made the round of 32. They made a piss poor decision when they got rid of Tubby Smith.

Tennessee was looking at probation and is sucking this year because of the mess it was when it opened.

Alabama was and still is in desperate need of rebuilding. They've been to one tournament since Godfried left, and he left because of a scandal.

Missouri is a complete mess and is currently on probation. I can't believe you would even mention them.

You didn't seriously list Auburn as being a healthy program did you?? They were a mess when Bruce Pearl got there, and he's still in the process of cleaning it up.

Wake Forest was an absolute dumpster fire and has been since Bzdelik arrived at the program and lit it on fire.

Marquette is perhaps a good example, but the last coach that left went to Virginia Tech and Marquette hasn't really even looked like an NIT program since.

I guess you could argue over the semantics of whether or not they're better or worse than Minnesota specifically, but just about all of them opened because they were a mess. That's my point. All needed fixing. Every coach that went those places knew that. They weren't like Iowa State or Florida.

And yes, I agree that those are the kinds of jobs and situations that Archie Miller can get. I don't think he can get North Carolina, or Iowa State, or Wisconsin (which is another program that really isn't broken).

[xubrew]

I just can't realistically see anything opening up for him this year, or maybe even next. It'll be interesting when he does decide to move on, I think he's a good coach and has the ability to land a big job. I just wonder what will happen to the Flyers program AFTER he leaves. Does it go into a dumpster fire, or do they get another quality hire?

I think you touched on something here that's important.

This is how I think the programs that were in good situations (ie Florida and Iowa State specifically) evaluate Archie Miller. I'm not saying I agree with this. In fact, I'll say that this is not how I would approach it. I'm just explaining how I think these people look at him.

He's successful at a place where he has an advantage over his competition. Dayton has more support, more resources, and more money going into their basketball program than virtually anyone else in the conference. Therefore, he should be successful, and therefore what he's doing isn't particularly exceptional.

Now, would a program LIKE Minnesota, Tennessee, Arizona State, Auburn, Alabama, Missouri, Mississippi State, or any number of power conference jobs that have recently opened or that are likely to soon open want Archie Miller?? Yes, they would. In a heartbeat.

Would a program like North Carolina that has it's pick of the litter want him?? Probably not. Florida and Iowa State didn't. (Okay, as an aside, I beleive that Florida had a specific reason for hiring the guy that they did and didn't really even consider anyone else, so maybe that's not the best example), but for better or worse, for right or wrong, they look at Archie Miller as someone who's doing what he should be doing given where he's at and what he has when compared who he's competing against and what they have. I personally don't agree with that because I think what they did last year with limited personnel is very impressive. But, I think that's how OTHERS see him.

Now, with that in mind, Dayton does have a ton more than their competition, and they should be able to hire a quality coach when Miller leaves. King Rice, Matt Driscoll, and Chris Beard are all strong candidates that come to mind if it were to open this year. I guess we'll have to wait and see as to whether or not they actually do.

[Masterofreality]

I think you touched on something here that's important.

This is how I think the programs that were in good situations (ie Florida and Iowa State specifically) evaluate Archie Miller. I'm not saying I agree with this. In fact, I'll say that this is not how I would approach it. I'm just explaining how I think these people look at him.

He's successful at a place where he has an advantage over his competition. Dayton has more support, more resources, and more money going into their basketball program than virtually anyone else in the conference. Therefore, he should be successful, and therefore what he's doing isn't particularly exceptional.

Now, would a program LIKE Minnesota, Tennessee, Arizona State, Auburn, Alabama, Missouri, Mississippi State, or any number of power conference jobs that have recently opened or that are likely to soon open want Archie Miller?? Yes, they would. In a heartbeat.

Would a program like North Carolina that has it's pick of the litter want him?? Probably not. Florida and Iowa State didn't. (Okay, as an aside, I beleive that Florida had a specific reason for hiring the guy that they did and didn't really even consider anyone else, so maybe that's not the best example), but for better or worse, for right or wrong, they look at Archie Miller as someone who's doing what he should be doing given where he's at and what he has when compared who he's competing against and what they have. I personally don't agree with that because I think what they did last year with limited personnel is very impressive. But, I think that's how OTHERS see him.

Now, with that in mind, Dayton does have a ton more than their competition, and they should be able to hire a quality coach when Miller leaves. King Rice, Matt Driscoll, and Chris Beard are all strong candidates that come to mind if it were to open this year. I guess we'll have to wait and see as to whether or not they actually do.

Of course VD did hire Jim O'Brien, Oliver Purnell and Brian Gregory.

[muskiefan82]

I have a different question. IF, and I only say IF because I don't see this happening or want this to happen, but IF Mack left, would X look hard at Archie Miller?

[Masterofreality]

I have a different question. IF, and I only say IF because I don't see this happening or want this to happen, but IF Mack left, would X look hard at Archie Miller?

Oh......what a BURN that would be!!!!!!!

[Muskied]

Are these seriously your examples of programs that were in good shape when they opened?? I don't see hardly any of them being any different than Minnesota right now. Keep in mind when Minnesota last opened, they had made the round of 32. They made a piss poor decision when they got rid of Tubby Smith.

No, I didn't say they were in good shape...frankly don't care if they are and I don't think every coach does either. They think they can fix anything. I think they are better than Minnesota for many reasons- location, investment in their programs/athletic department, recruiting. But it's not about comparing the middle tier jobs because my main point is thats NOT where Archie will go. He will go to a job which is among the top 3 that open up-like I said before. I think your naive if you don't think he can get a Carolina, or job comparable to Wisconsin or Iowa State. That's absolutely where he will go...it won't be for anything less.

As far as UD goes...I think they need to start building within their coaching tree like Xavier has done, and are fortunate to have had success outside of that. I guess why would you promote from the Purnell or Gregory Tree...but I think they have a better chance to sustain success if they do that. There are some who are hoping for a Big East invite, and some that think it's ok to just dominate the A10 which they are doing right now...and that's probably the most realistic and sustainable of the 2. There isn't much of a reason to think they can't keep doing that.

[joe titan]

Playing to the speculative premise, the politically correct reply is XU would look to any qualified coach; but why not Archie Miller ? MOR can tell you XU once hired UC (though then not current) coach.

[muskiefan82]

Playing to the speculative premise, the politically correct reply is XU would look to any qualified coach; but why not Archie Miller ? MOR can tell you XU once hired UC (though then not current) coach.

Yes. X did. That did not work out so well.

[joe titan]

'82: I kinda disagree; Tay Baker did alright with what he had & the circumstances he encountered. I would say even gained some level of respectability to XU hoops. No he did not turn everything around, but I would say he did his part digging them out of a deep hole.

[muskiefan82]

'82: I kinda disagree; Tay Baker did alright with what he had & the circumstances he encountered. I would say even gained some level of respectability to XU hoops. No he did not turn everything around, but I would say he did his part digging them out of a deep hole.

I can respect that. It WAS a very deep hole

[xudash]

'82: I kinda disagree; Tay Baker did alright with what he had & the circumstances he encountered. I would say even gained some level of respectability to XU hoops. No he did not turn everything around, but I would say he did his part digging them out of a deep hole.

Joe, perhaps I was way too deep into the Hudepohl Beer in Schmidt at the time, or perhaps my shoes stuck so badly to Schmidt's floor one night that I proceeded to trip and hit my head on the concrete floor and couldn't remember much from then on, but I have to side with MF82 on this one.

The only highlight I can ever remember from that era was when Tay took the Nick Daniels led crew down to a holiday tournament at Tennessee and proceeded to beat UT and Southern Cal for that tournament championship.

Otherwise, well, my God.

[xubrew]

Of course VD did hire Jim O'Brien, Oliver Purnell and Brian Gregory.

Well, one for three will get you into the baseball hall of fame. I think Purnell was actually pretty good. He had Clemson as a regular tournament team before going to DePaul.

[LA Muskie]

I know agents don't have the best of reputations. And mostly for good reason. But one thing they do for their money is keep their finger on the pulse of the market and help steer their clients through the forest toward their best overall set of opportunities.

It would be reasonable to assume that Archie either turned some jobs down these last few years. If that's true (and I believe it probably is), that tells me that his agent has told him that if he waits a year or two he will have better opportunities. It tells me that the agent has a sense of which jobs may open up in the next few years. And it tells me that the agent knows where Archie stands on the "lists" of those schools.

Archie may not go anywhere this year. The opportunity may not be there. But I'd be very surprised to see him still there in 5 years. Because if that were a reasonable probability, I tend to doubt he would have turned down jobs the last few years.

[xubrew]

No, I didn't say they were in good shape...frankly don't care if they are and I don't think every coach does either. They think they can fix anything. I think they are better than Minnesota for many reasons- location, investment in their programs/athletic department, recruiting. But it's not about comparing the middle tier jobs because my main point is thats NOT where Archie will go. He will go to a job which is among the top 3 that open up-like I said before. I think your naive if you don't think he can get a Carolina, or job comparable to Wisconsin or Iowa State. That's absolutely where he will go...it won't be for anything less.

Well, he's going to be waiting a while then. Jobs like that don't open that often. I have a feeling Wiscy might stick with Gard, especially if they finish strong and keep playing like they have been. Just so we're clear, I think Miller would be a good hire for a program like that. I just don't think that's who they're looking at. I think Wiscy is eying three or four coaches, and none of them are Miller. I don't think Florida or Iowa State really looked at him either. Maybe they should have. In fact, they probably should have. I actually like Archie more than the guys that both schools ended up going with. But, I don't think they did. I don't think Wiscy is either. But, I could be wrong. Or naïve. Or both.

[Blue Blooded-05]

Are these seriously your examples of programs that were in good shape when they opened?? I don't see hardly any of them being any different than Minnesota right now. Keep in mind when Minnesota last opened, they had made the round of 32. They made a piss poor decision when they got rid of Tubby Smith.

Tennessee was looking at probation and is sucking this year because of the mess it was when it opened.

Alabama was and still is in desperate need of rebuilding. They've been to one tournament since Godfried left, and he left because of a scandal.

Missouri is a complete mess and is currently on probation. I can't believe you would even mention them.

You didn't seriously list Auburn as being a healthy program did you?? They were a mess when Bruce Pearl got there, and he's still in the process of cleaning it up.

Wake Forest was an absolute dumpster fire and has been since Bzdelik arrived at the program and lit it on fire.

Marquette is perhaps a good example, but the last coach that left went to Virginia Tech and Marquette hasn't really even looked like an NIT program since.

I guess you could argue over the semantics of whether or not they're better or worse than Minnesota specifically, but just about all of them opened because they were a mess. That's my point. All needed fixing. Every coach that went those places knew that. They weren't like Iowa State or Florida.

And yes, I agree that those are the kinds of jobs and situations that Archie Miller can get. I don't think he can get North Carolina, or Iowa State, or Wisconsin (which is another program that really isn't broken).

No mention of the Georgia Tech job opening at the end of the year? How funny would it be if Mike Bobinski fires Brian Gregory and then poaches Archie Miller?

[xubrew]

No mention of the Georgia Tech job opening at the end of the year? How funny would it be if Mike Bobinski fires Brian Gregory and then poaches Archie Miller?

I'd certainly get a good laugh out of it!

[Muskied]

Well, he's going to be waiting a while then. Jobs like that don't open that often. I have a feeling Wiscy might stick with Gard, especially if they finish strong and keep playing like they have been. Just so we're clear, I think Miller would be a good hire for a program like that. I just don't think that's who they're looking at. I think Wiscy is eying three or four coaches, and none of them are Miller. I don't think Florida or Iowa State really looked at him either. Maybe they should have. In fact, they probably should have. I actually like Archie more than the guys that both schools ended up going with. But, I don't think they did. I don't think Wiscy is either. But, I could be wrong. Or naïve. Or both.

Gotcha. maybe they are not. I think he likes Dayton more than people think he should, and he's content waiting on that job. Who knows, if Dayton makes another run that could change the tune of those top jobs available.

[xubrew]

I know agents don't have the best of reputations. And mostly for good reason. But one thing they do for their money is keep their finger on the pulse of the market and help steer their clients through the forest toward their best overall set of opportunities.

It would be reasonable to assume that Archie either turned some jobs down these last few years. If that's true (and I believe it probably is), that tells me that his agent has told him that if he waits a year or two he will have better opportunities. It tells me that the agent has a sense of which jobs may open up in the next few years. And it tells me that the agent knows where Archie stands on the "lists" of those schools.

Archie may not go anywhere this year. The opportunity may not be there. But I'd be very surprised to see him still there in 5 years. Because if that were a reasonable probability, I tend to doubt he would have turned down jobs the last few years.

This is likely going to sound way too general, but I don't know how to say it any other way...

I think we're to a point where most Athletic Directors don't even make the decisions themselves any more. They outsource it to these search firms and consultants, and most of the major programs rely on two or three in particular. It's actually kind of ridiculous when they reach out to these consultants who also double as agents, and they put together a list of candidates, and all of them just happen to be their own clients. So, there's that.

It's as if athletic directors are so insecure that they always want to make sure they can explain their decisions if they don't work out, and this need to CYA basically has them outsourcing what should be their job to firms like Parker, Carr, and others. They're going to push their guys. They also have things that they value that the probably should, other things that they don't value that they probably should (ie having a great season even though you had a shorthanded roster), and there are other things that they value that they probably shouldn't.

Okay, long story (and point) short, I think there are a lot of good coaches out there that would be better hires than what most schools go with, but that don't get hired because that's not who Parker, and Carr, and Fogler, and others are telling these schools they should hire.

Have you ever asked yourself "Why in the hell did they hire this guy and not that guy??" Well, probably because someone else told them to, and they figured that was the safest move just in case it doesn't work out.

[paulxu]

I think Bobinski should hire Miller. Might work out well for everybody concerned.