Orlando Classic

[XUBT]

Making the trip for Thanksgiving this year. I couldn't find too much information about this tournament online (their website sucks). Has anyone here ever gone to this and have any insight? I'm really wondering what time the championship game is on Sunday since we've got to fly out that night.

Am also hoping for a little revenge against the Hawkeyes since they ruined my T-giving a couple years ago when I had to watch it with my Iowa alum brother-in-law....

[JEHARDI]

Went the lat time X played in it, great environment to watch hoops, small arena, no bad seats. I believe the championship game is late afternoon or early evening, unfortunately, we played early that year.

[XU-PA]

Defintely going,,,, just a couple hours from us here in St Pete. I don't suppose there's any sales through Xavier for tickets,,,,

[casualfan]

Schedule has been announced.

http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/eye-on-college-basketball/25241172/matchups-set-for-2015-orlando-classic-irish-open-with-monmouth

We get alabama first game, then play the winner of USC-Wichita State.

Dayton, Iowa, Notre Dame, and Monmouth are on the other side of the bracket.

Assuming we beat alabama, I'll be interested to see how whoever wins the pg job plays against that Wichita backcourt.

[JTG]

Looks like this was set up to achieve a ND v WSU finale for TV.

[kyxu]

Assuming we beat alabama...

Considering our history in these tournaments, that's a lofty assumption.

[GoMuskies]

Looks like this was set up to achieve a ND v WSU finale for TV.

And a Xavier vs. Dayton 3rd place game. Rejoice xubrew!

[paulxu]

Screw the Shockers. I want to see us in the final.

[SemajParlor]

I'm optimistic about our chances. I know we've struggled in these things, but I like our chances now knowing we have a ton of big minutes allocated towards players with neutral court tournament experience. Can't wait for the season to start.

[XUFan09]

And a Xavier vs. Dayton 3rd place game. Rejoice xubrew!

Lol. I'd bet on Iowa over Dayton in a theoretical 3rd place game. I think the seeding sets up something like:

1/2: Notre Dame/Wichita State
3/4: Xavier/Iowa
5/6: Dayton/Alabama
7/8: USC/Monmouth

Let's just hope for the first round to be chalk. Then there's no Dayton matchup and USC and Monmouth aren't an RPI hit. They'd only indirectly affect Xavier through WSU and Notre Dame, two teams this season that should more than make up for playing the tournament's cellar dwellers.

[xubrew]

And a Xavier vs. Dayton 3rd place game. Rejoice xubrew!

I'd actually rather it be an unbracketed game that we can still count as part of the tournament and therefore make it an exempt game.

[XUFan09]

I'm actually with Brew on how a home-and-home series with Dayton could benefit Xavier. Pretty much a guaranteed decent home win, a road loss that doesn't hurt at all, and a road win that boosts the resume a bit (and it's a win that seems to disproportionately happen when you compare Dayton to similarly ranked road opponents). I just don't want to face them in this tournament. It would be annoying, and there are two distinctly better opponents on that side of the bracket.

[MuskiePimp23]

I'm actually with Brew on how a home-and-home series with Dayton could benefit Xavier. Pretty much a guaranteed decent home win, a road loss that doesn't hurt at all, and a road win that boosts the resume a bit (and it's a win that seems to disproportionately happen when you compare Dayton to similarly ranked road opponents). I just don't want to face them in this tournament. It would be annoying, and there are two distinctly better opponents on that side of the bracket.

I am on the direct opposite side, that playing Dayton does not benefit Xavier all that much and I could argue really only benefits Dayton with their weak conference schedule. We play enough tough opponents with our non-conference and our conference schedule. Why play Dayton. Their fans claimed that they passed Xavier as a program years ago so why even give them any hope. I say, ignore them and if we happen to play in one of these tourney's or post season play, so be it.

[xubrew]

I agree. Let's ignore their fans. Not playing the game because you don't like what some of their fans said is doing the opposite of ignoring them.

And who cares if it helps them?? Not wanting to schedule teams on the grounds that they would be helped by playing us is a ridiculous scheduling philosophy. They've gotten quite a bit better since we've quit playing them, so whatever it is that has made them better has been done entirely without our help.

ESPN already has the rights to the tournament, which means if we played Dayton in a non-bracketed game it would probably be on ESPN. Franky, both schools could benefit from an early season ESPN game when you look at the conference TV ratings. It would be a game against a tournament caliber team that's less than an hour away that would be on national television, it wouldn't count against our scheduling limit, and it would be of huge interest to the fans. There is no down side to that. How does that not benefit Xavier?? It seems like that would help out both teams, don't you think?? Not wanting to play a game like that simply because we find them annoying is more than a little silly.

[GoMuskies]

It's kind of interesting that Xavier and Dayton play in every men's and women's sport where they each sponsor a team other than basketball and soccer. And in those sports neither the men nor women play.

[XUFan09]

Yeah, I don't really care if it helps them, hurts them, does nothing for them. I only care about Xavier. I understand the (low) threat of them rising as a program to the point that they might win recruiting battles against Xavier, but even if that happened, it would hardly be due to scheduling us. When I say why I don't want to play them in this tournament, the fact that they're annoying is true but for me it's much more about ND and Iowa being better opponents. If Dayton was the best opponent in the tournament, I'd be okay dealing with that annoyance for the sake of the SOS. As it is, I'd still much rather face them than friggin' Monmouth.

The home-and-home possibility comes down simply to the RPI game. Xavier would basically be guaranteed a home win every other year against an RPI 25-75 team. In the other years, they would have a 50% chance or something (thinking of recent history) of picking up a road win against an RPI 25-75 team, which is the rough equivalent of beating a top 25 team on a neutral court. And if they lost, it would be no big deal in most years, because of that same fact. No one seriously criticizes a team for losing a neutral game to a top 25 opponent, and in fact, Selection Committees have often given props to teams for "challenging themselves" on the road. And again, it's still only a 50% chance or something of a road loss.

If you replaced Dayton with an equivalent team, I don't think many would protest so heavily at playing them. Heck, Xavier just played SFA, who finished six spots behind them at #35. Ohio State finished nine spots behind at #38 and that would be a cool game. Cincinnati two years ago finished eight spots behind at #36. They played Memphis three years ago, when they finished three spots ahead of UD at #30.

Maybe things change if Archie leaves (even though that speculation is true of many programs), but right now, they are right in that range where they are good for the RPI but very beatable too, a hard balance to strike.

[X-band '01]

ESPN already has the rights to the tournament, which means if we played Dayton in a non-bracketed game it would probably be on ESPN. Franky, both schools could benefit from an early season ESPN game when you look at the conference TV ratings. It would be a game against a tournament caliber team that's less than an hour away that would be on national television, it wouldn't count against our scheduling limit, and it would be of huge interest to the fans. There is no down side to that. How does that not benefit Xavier?? It seems like that would help out both teams, don't you think?? Not wanting to play a game like that simply because we find them annoying is more than a little silly.

The first sentence doesn't apply to non-bracketed games. If the game is played at Dayton or a neutral site, it would be up to Dayton and the A-10 to determine which TV network gets the game. If Xavier hosts Dayton, then it's up to Fox Sports to determine if they broadcast the game or relegate it to CBS/CBS Sports Network (unlikely).

Xavier's home game against Long Beach State was a nonbracketed game in the DirecTV Classic last season; it was on FS1.

[xubrew]

The first sentence doesn't apply to non-bracketed games. If the game is played at Dayton or a neutral site, it would be up to Dayton and the A-10 to determine which TV network gets the game. If Xavier hosts Dayton, then it's up to Fox Sports to determine if they broadcast the game or relegate it to CBS/CBS Sports Network (unlikely).

Xavier's home game against Long Beach State was a nonbracketed game in the DirecTV Classic last season; it was on FS1.

I'll take your word for it because it's good enough for me. I've seen non-bracketed games to ESPN Tournaments on ESPN before, but now that I think about it the only one that involved two teams that weren't contracted with ESPN was Belmont v Memphis in a Maui Invitational game that was played in Memphis. However, that game was also part of the Tip Off Marathon.

Are you sure ESPN didn't sell it/give it to Fox Sports 1?? Maybe they didn't. Like I said, I was just assuming they had the rights to all of it, not just the bracketed games.

[XUFan09]

I'm sure it's possible with the right contract for a network to keep the rights to non-bracketed games, but maybe it's not common practice. God knows, no network would be chomping at the bit for a game involving Abilene Christian.

[Xavier]

I am on the direct opposite side, that playing Dayton does not benefit Xavier all that much and I could argue really only benefits Dayton with their weak conference schedule. We play enough tough opponents with our non-conference and our conference schedule. Why play Dayton. Their fans claimed that they passed Xavier as a program years ago so why even give them any hope. I say, ignore them and if we happen to play in one of these tourney's or post season play, so be it.

Sounds a lot like UC fans back in the day.

[drudy23]

All bickering aside, Dayton would be a decent non conference game for us.

[94GRAD]

All bickering aside, Dayton would be a decent non conference game for us.

This is a factual statement, no need for those around here.

[waggy]

Dayton Cheats.

[xu82]

Dayton Cheats.

Did Butler teach them that? Or did they teach Butler?

[waggy]

Did Butler teach them that? Or did they teach Butler?


There used to be a poster that posted that, And only that.

[XUFan09]

All bickering aside, Dayton would be a decent non conference game for us.

Yep. That's what it comes down to. There are other possibilities, but scheduling is always a tricky game and Dayton is a ready-made option that would work almost their entire non-con around scheduling Xavier.

Now, scheduling in a lot of ways is about relationships between schools and/or staff members. If the relationship between UD and Xavier, between the coaches, or simply between Mack and UD has gone sour, that's an entirely legitimate reason not to schedule them. I say "if" because I don't know in that case; I can imagine scenarios but am not interested in speculating on that front. On the other side, the respective fanbases not liking each other (and consequently having visceral negative reactions to playing one another) is not a legitimate reason.

[Boro Muskie]

If I am Chris Mack, having experienced the reaction my wife received, I honestly would channel my inner Bob Huggins and say F 'em, really F'em.
I don't know if that is short-sighted, or even a little immature, but as long as there are other options out there I would go that route.
I don't know Chris Mack personally but get the sense that he is a strong family man and if that were me, I would have a very long memory and I can't or wont fault him for that - in fact I strongly agree. Yes, pure speculation but why not - it's the off season.

[XUFan09]

If I am Chris Mack, having experienced the reaction my wife received, I honestly would channel my inner Bob Huggins and say F 'em, really F'em.
I don't know if that is short-sighted, or even a little immature, but as long as there are other options out there I would go that route.
I don't know Chris Mack personally but get the sense that he is a strong family man and if that were me, I would have a very long memory and I can't or wont fault him for that - in fact I strongly agree. Yes, pure speculation but why not - it's the off season.
If there's a reason they don't play, this is the most likely. It could be that or it could be Mack just thinks, "I don't care about the jackass fans; I'm cool with Archie and I like beating up on UD." I'm not in the mind of Chris Mack to know one way or the other.

The dust from conference realignment is settling down, so we'll get an idea in the next couple seasons if Mack/the administration has a level of antipathy toward UD. I say that because scheduling them will be much easier now that Xavier will have adjusted to two fewer non-conference games and will have exhausted pre-alignment and intra-alignment scheduling commitments.

Of course, the Big East could be expanding soon if certain things happen, in which case UD is a possible candidate for #12 (I don't think they'll ever be a candidate for #11). If that happens, why schedule a non-con series with someone who is about to join the conference?

[MuskiePimp23]

I agree. Let's ignore their fans. Not playing the game because you don't like what some of their fans said is doing the opposite of ignoring them.

And who cares if it helps them?? Not wanting to schedule teams on the grounds that they would be helped by playing us is a ridiculous scheduling philosophy. They've gotten quite a bit better since we've quit playing them, so whatever it is that has made them better has been done entirely without our help.

ESPN already has the rights to the tournament, which means if we played Dayton in a non-bracketed game it would probably be on ESPN. Franky, both schools could benefit from an early season ESPN game when you look at the conference TV ratings. It would be a game against a tournament caliber team that's less than an hour away that would be on national television, it wouldn't count against our scheduling limit, and it would be of huge interest to the fans. There is no down side to that. How does that not benefit Xavier?? It seems like that would help out both teams, don't you think?? Not wanting to play a game like that simply because we find them annoying is more than a little silly.

2 reasons: If we ever lost to those damn mellon humpers at home, that would be terrible. Playing Dayton on our home floor, there is absolutely ZERO downside for Dayton and Xavier is the only team with something to lose. Beating them at home is not anything to write home about. The second reason is once Archie Miller leaves, Dayton will once again fall into obscure mediocrity. Don't play them just because they finally have a decent coach who has made them respectable the last couple of years. Dayton is not a big name in college basketball, they just aren't, so if you want to play somebody that is a relatively big name and somewhat close, go after Louisville, Purdue, IU, West Virginia, Penn St even. There are a lot of schools that are a short drive (within 4-5 hours is what I consider short) that I would have more interest in playing than Dayton. They just are not relevant to me and bringing them onto our schedule makes me pay a little bit of attention to them and I just can't stand their idiot, arrogant, a$$ clown fans.

[MuskiePimp23]

Sounds a lot like UC fans back in the day.

How so and when was "back in the day?" Did uc and Xavier ever stop playing like Xavier and Dayton did? Dayton dropped Xavier when they moved to the Great Midwest and we started playing them non-conference, but there were a couple years we didn't play them at all. UC and Xavier have never not played each other, nor been in the same conference. This is like apples and oranges as far as comparisons go. UC is Xavier's rival and always has been. Dayton is a conference rival that consistently loses away from there home floor to us. That is not the definition of a true rivalry. It is really only relevant because of the venom their fans dig up to try and make it into one. I mean, if you want a close conference rival that has some clout and actually done some major things on a National scale and been consistent in doing so, you only have to go to Indy and its Butler. They are our biggest conference rival in my opinion now and they also have a lot more respect nationally than Dayton ever will.

[xubrew]

You continue to do a very piss poor job of ignoring their fans. You come off as someone that's too emotionally involved and unable to make any actual logical sense. Dayton is not a big name in college basketball, so let's play......Penn State?? Are you tone deaf to the point to where you can't see how ridiculous that sounds?? Anyway, scheduling Louisville and Indiana in a home and home is a nice thought, but so are threesomes with supermodels. Nice to think about, but not likely to happen. Playing Penn State home and home is a very bad idea because this might happen...

http://www.xavierhoops.com/showthread.php?29206-Just-How-Dumb-Is-Penn-State

Losing to Dayton at home wouldn't be fun. Losing on the road wouldn't be fun either. But, on paper, it wouldn't be that damaging. Losing an OOC game to Dayton is less damaging than losing a conference game to Dayton. Xavier has lost to Dayton and made the Elite Eight. Xavier has lost to Dayton and earned a protected seed. Multiple times, actually. We lost two games last year to teams that were nowhere close to making the NIT, yet still ended up as a #6 seed. I think the OOC heat is actually good because if you can play a heated OOC game it kind of gets you more ready for the heated conference games. If there is no downside on paper to losing, then all the better. And, if by some miracle they did beat us at home, it wouldn't be any more damaging than any other OOC home game that we play and could potentially lose. It would actually be less damaging than the vast majority of OOC home games that we play.

You don't want to play Dayton because although they're good now, they won't be once Archie leaves. That makes so little sense that it's funny. Butler is now our big rival. I agree that they're a rival, but that's also funny because as recently as this past November people were talking about how much Butler sucked and how they wouldn't be any good because their coach had left. Several posters have been horrendously bad at predicting the downfalls of the teams they don't like, such as Butler and Dayton. Even though those teams are now consistently playing well, people still talk as though they're going to drop off the face of the Earth at any minute. When Miller leaves, Dayton will be in a position to put together a stronger pool of candidates than they've probably ever been able to put together in their entire history. Even if the average IQ in their athletic department is 80, they should still be able to hire a quality replacement.

....but that's several years from now, and has nothing to do with the option of playing them in an extra exempt game right now. It's a free game. It doesn't count against our scheduling limits. It's a use it or lose it. I don't know exactly who it is we're trying to impress by not playing Dayton so as to not appear to be stooping to their level, but whoever it is, they'd probably think it was kinda ridiculous to not take advantage of a chance to play a free game against a tournament caliber team that is a rival and that would interest the fans. Just sayin'

[XUFan09]

You continue to do a very piss poor job of ignoring their fans. You come off as someone that's too emotionally involved and unable to make any actual logical sense. Dayton is not a big name in college basketball, so let's play......Penn State?? Are you tone deaf to the point to where you can't see how ridiculous that sounds?? Playing Penn State home and home is a very bad idea because this might happen...


The bolded part probably precludes a logical reaction to your logical argument. Not just for him on this board, though. I wish PMThor had responded by now lol. He makes no bones about his visceral hatred for Dayton and doesn't try to dress it up as anything but that. He just gives beautiful rants against that team up north.

[Xavier]

How so and when was "back in the day?" Did uc and Xavier ever stop playing like Xavier and Dayton did? Dayton dropped Xavier when they moved to the Great Midwest and we started playing them non-conference, but there were a couple years we didn't play them at all. UC and Xavier have never not played each other, nor been in the same conference. This is like apples and oranges as far as comparisons go. UC is Xavier's rival and always has been. Dayton is a conference rival that consistently loses away from there home floor to us.

You don't remember UC fans always saying they shouldn't play us? Because it's a lose lose situation, they were in better conference etc. it literally sounded like you did towards Dayton, a "non rival". I guess conference rivals don't count as much? UNC Duke isn't a big rivalry because same conference?

Personally, I rank them as a third rival. Most lists go UC, Dayton, Butler. Mine is UC, Butler, Dayton. I don't really hate Dayton that much (or Butler for that matter) but realize they are rivals. Even if just "conference" rivals.

[MuskieCinci]

I like college basketball because it has true rivalries. The NBA is great and all, but guys switch teams every year, they go on vacations and hang out on banana boats together. I like it when the stakes are just a little bit higher, when some actual bragging rights are on the line. I like it when the game is going to mean more than just a W or an L, because the players, students, and fans will actually still bump into their opponents from time to time. I don't like Dayton, and there is a 100% chance that Dayton fans will care more about the game than Xavier fans, but does that mean Xavier fans have to act like they don't care at all?

If Mack and Mario want it, I am totally on board with kicking Dayton's ass. And if somehow we lose, the rivalry will only get better.

[muskiefan82]

I hate UC (when X plays them). I hate Butler (all the time). I hate UD (all the time). If X never plays Dayton again, I am fine. If X does play them again, I will also be fine. Does anyone think that someone knows something and X isn't scheduling UD because they will enter the Big East at some point? I would much rather play them OOC that ever see them join the Big East.

[xubrew]

I hate UC (when X plays them). I hate Butler (all the time). I hate UD (all the time). If X never plays Dayton again, I am fine. If X does play them again, I will also be fine. Does anyone think that someone knows something and X isn't scheduling UD because they will enter the Big East at some point? I would much rather play them OOC that ever see them join the Big East.

Perhaps, but if that is the reason then Dayton is not joining the Big East this year, so it makes absolutely no sense to not schedule them in an extra exempt game this year. Say we schedule a two year home and home so the team that has to go on the road this year gets it back the following year. Well, even if Dayton joins in 2016-2017, (which I don't think is likely, but just supposing) the latest we would know it would be July 1st, which would give both teams enough time to drop the OOC game and find a replacement.

[casualfan]

I've always thought the "we have nothing to gain by playing them" comments roughly translate to "that's a team i really hate losing to and they're capable of beating us so i'd like to avoid playing them".

I don't think that's any different here.

Think of it this way:

If you knew before the game was scheduled that we would win, would you feel differently? Of course you would. You'd be all in to schedule them.

And that runs counter to the nothing to gain argument. If there's nothing to gain, there'd be no reason to schedule them even if you knew you would win going in.

What it really amounts to is that a loss to them brings more pain than a win brings joy. And if that's how you feel that's fine. Just don't hide behind the "nothing to gain" mantra.

It sounds ridiculous and is completely untrue.

[paulxu]

I don't buy into all that.
Grambling St was 0-27 last year.
You could pretty much guarantee a win at Cintas if we scheduled them
I wouldn't "feel differently" about that. I would say there's nothing to gain. End of story.

Does that apply to Dayton? Maybe. But there are a lot of other teams I'd want to see on the schedule if possible first.

[casualfan]

I don't buy into all that.
Grambling St was 0-27 last year.
You could pretty much guarantee a win at Cintas if we scheduled them
I wouldn't "feel differently" about that. I would say there's nothing to gain. End of story.

Does that apply to Dayton? Maybe. But there are a lot of other teams I'd want to see on the schedule if possible first.

What are you talking about?

Grambling is terrible which is why there is nothing to gain from playing them.

Grambling and Dayton are in no way shape or form comparable teams.

You're comparing apples and piles of shit.

[XUFan09]

What are you talking about?

Grambling is terrible which is why there is nothing to gain from playing them.

Grambling and Dayton are in no way shape or form comparable teams.

You're comparing apples and piles of shit.
I think he's just saying your measure is not universally applicable by using that example. He's technically right, but I agree with the sentiment of what you're saying. When someone casually says "nothing to gain" and then just dismisses the topic, that's more like Grambling, et. al.

Now, when one asserts the same claim, followed by a convoluted explanation as to why it's true (an explanation reading more like a rant), that falls in line with what you're talking about. It's an emotional reaction that the person tries to hide with supposedly rational arguments.

[SM#24]

My guess is a main reason we do not play Dayton is that Chris and Archie are friends and usually coaching friends like to avoid playing each other. Look, I dislike all things Dayton as much as the next person, but after playing them every year going back I don't know how long, I think this "there's no benefit to us" or "we're Big East now and don't need to schedule A10 teams" as a reason to not play them makes us pussies. And we're huge pussies if we don't schedule them as a way of keeping the Jimmy Carter streak alive, it actually devalues the streak.
They're a local rival, the atmosphere is what college bb is all about. Schedule them and beat them, it's that simple.
Afraid of losing should never be a reason to not schedule a team.

[waggy]

I'm not in favor of scheduling them.

[xudash]

Here is a possible scenario, and allow me a little backdrop to support my conclusion.

Let's go back to when Xavier helped Dayton get into the A10. It's widely understood that occurred. Where we are today and where we were then is as dramatically different as Xavier's campus and reputation then and now. The "assist" made sense back then. Moving from the MCC to the A10 isn't anything like moving from the A10 to the Big East, including our version of the Big East. Back then, though the A10 was a nice move in and of itself, and notwithstanding the fact that the UD program was in the toilet at that time, any move that could be made that was perceived to have the ability to improve a conference was taken more often than not. Even with UMass ranked and teams like Virginia Tech in the conference with us, the Big East was still very much the BIG EAST back then. The fact that Xavier and UD had a good relationship back then and that Xavier's support helped UD navigate its way into the A10 isn't surprising.

Now roll the tape forward to today. I believe the challenges facing higher education are placing much more competitive pressure on institutions and will continue to do so for the foreseeable future. Xavier will be fine. UD will be fine. I just don't believe they'll find themselves lending each other a hand here and there, though that doesn't mean they can't be collegial towards each other, whatever that could come to mean in practice.

Anyone, especially a UD fan, who is being honest with his or her self must conclude that this latest round of realignment that gave rise to the existing Big East has been almost disastrous for UD at the institutional level and fantastic for Xavier at that same level. The Xavier brand now hangs out with Georgetown, Villanova, etc. UD is left to be associated with LaSalle, SBU, etc. Take your minds off basketball for a minute and consider the strategic implications of Xavier becoming a member of the Big East.

Now put your minds back into the basketball side of it. Would a Xavier/UD regular season basketball game make sense? Absolutely, but in certain important areas no one gives a shit. You can argue the merits of the game all day long as a basketball fan and you'd be spot on, or at least mostly spot on (i.e. it's still UD).

I believe this is about distancing, not reconnecting. There is too much competition at the institutional level and with Xavier now sitting there with a strategic advantage. UD's problem was that it was way too late to the party in getting the right coach and it ended up missing the train. UD's bigger problem is that its rival didn't miss the train, and that it's rival sits within 50 miles of it. The spread in accomplishment in basketball remains substantial, and it probably is a matter of time until UD will be faced with having to navigate another hiring process.

Will UD ever make it into the Big East. I seriously doubt it. The Big East is performing well so far as is, notwithstanding the lack of aggregate NCAA Tournament performance (i.e. more deep runs by multiple teams; not the Units aggregated to-date, which have been strong). Fox's numbers are trending in the right direction, with soccer being a boon to them. Look at where cable is now. I would rather have Fox's carriage fee mix than the mess ESPN has now negotiated itself into. There is nothing on the horizon that would cause the Big East leadership to tack the boat on a different course at this point. I truly believe the Big East, Fox and MSG likes what they have, or at least finds it all to be within acceptable parameters presently. Besides, and sorry to those who don't like the "move the needle" phrase, but something big will have to happen before expansion cranks up again, and we all know that UD may be in the discussion for that, but not exactly well positioned in the pecking order for it.

It's a tough thing. I understand those who are in the camp of "let's play them; they're a traditional rival; they can't hurt us on the RPI level, and they're close by." IN MY OPINION, it's not really an athletic decision. I tend to believe we're in the Pullman car enjoying the view and dinner with our new colleagues, and that UD is left to accomplish whatever it will accomplish while maintaining a locker at the Greyhound Bus Station. That hasn't been bad for them so far with Archie at the helm, as they've navigated a diluted A10 to the Tournament two years in a row now.

I don't desire for X to play them in the regular season ever again. I'll take the separation for reasons beyond basketball, if that, in fact, explains why we are where we are with UD.

If anything is true presently, it is that we have plenty of options for the OOC schedule.

[XUFan09]

I actually appreciate this argument, because it talks about the institutions beyond their basketball connections. The dissociation becomes much more strategic than when it's just about basketball (which is hardly justification enough in itself when Xavier is playing teams like Mizzou).

[bobbiemcgee]

http://www.daytondailynews.com/news/sports/college-basketball/verbal-abuse-of-macks-worse-than-first-thought/nWXc6/

I hate them for this, which would NEVER happen @ X. No class bastards. F'em.

[casualfan]

http://www.daytondailynews.com/news/sports/college-basketball/verbal-abuse-of-macks-worse-than-first-thought/nWXc6/

I hate them for this, which would NEVER happen @ X. No class bastards. F'em.

Now you sounds like a UC fan. It was only three or four years ago that their coaches complained of verbal abuse their families encountered at cintas.

[SM#24]

The Xavier brand now hangs out with Georgetown, Villanova, etc. UD is left to be associated with LaSalle, SBU, etc.


This probably belongs in Pet Peeves, but when comparing one conference to another, can we stop with the opposite extremes ? The same point is made if the comparison is Villanova/Gtown vs. VCU/UMass/Richmond or Seton Hall vs. SBU/LaSalle.

[xudash]

This probably belongs in Pet Peeves, but when comparing one conference to another, can we stop with the opposite extremes ? The same point is made if the comparison is Villanova/Gtown vs. VCU/UMass/Richmond or Seton Hall vs. SBU/LaSalle.

So leave specific schools out of it and just focus on the conferences themselves. I trust you believe that the Big East is a better overall conference in the minds of the general public than the A10.

[bobbiemcgee]

Now you sounds like a UC fan. It was only three or four years ago that their coaches complained of verbal abuse their families encountered at cintas.

You should probably reread or read the article by UD's biggest homer.You sound like one of the guys in the "comments" section.

[xubrew]

Basketball aside Fordham. SLU, GW, Davidson, St. Joes, etc are all considered to be outstanding institutions, so it isn't as if we're distancing ourselves in the world of academia by not playing them. An OOC basketball game simply isn't anywhere close to being that cataclysmic. It's almost kind of funny to suggest that it is. Nova, the most successful program in the conference, plays St.Joes and La Salle. It doesn't set their program back, nor does it lower the value of its academic reputation or institutional brand. It's crazy to think that it does.

[XUFan09]

Basketball aside Fordham. SLU, GW, Davidson, St. Joes, etc are all considered to be outstanding institutions, so it isn't as if we're distancing ourselves in the world of academia by not playing them. An OOC basketball game simply isn't anywhere close to being that cataclysmic. It's almost kind of funny to suggest that it is. Nova, the most successful program in the conference, plays St.Joes and La Salle. It doesn't set their program back, nor does it lower the value of its academic reputation or institutional brand. It's crazy to think that it does.
I think what he's referring to is how Xavier and Dayton compete on the admissions side, when the college landscape has changed significantly in recent years. When you have tuition skyrocketing and fewer people tolerating it, you want to set yourself apart from similar institutions nearby in any way you can. All the schools you listed are nowhere near Xavier, whereas Dayton is. The Villanova example is apples to oranges, as those teams have played each other in the non-conference schedule for years. Plus, Villanova pulls from a wider geographic area than Xavier and resides in a much denser population area.

[xudash]

I think what he's referring to is how Xavier and Dayton compete on the admissions side, when the college landscape has changed significantly in recent years. When you have tuition skyrocketing and fewer people tolerating it, you want to set yourself apart from similar institutions nearby in any way you can. All the schools you listed are nowhere near Xavier, whereas Dayton is. The Villanova example is apples to oranges, as those teams have played each other in the non-conference schedule for years. Plus, Villanova pulls from a wider geographic area than Xavier and resides in a much denser population area.

Exactly.

Again, this may be more of a strategic issue than an athletic issue. It has nothing to do with whether or not an OOC basketball game is cataclysmic. The schools he mentioned our outstanding institutions; nobody is disagreeing with that. And it certainly has nothing to do with what is going on in Philadelphia.

[xubrew]

Exactly how much is Xavier looking to increase its enrollment and/or application pool?? I'm under the impression that they receive upwards of 10,000 applications a year, and enroll roughly 1000. The acceptance rate is lower than the admissions rate, and the enrollment rate is lower than the acceptance rate. If it were Wright State and NKU who are both looking to increase their enrollments then I would understand. But, Xavier turns away applicants. If there was a desire to suddenly drastically increase the enrollment, they could do so by simply accepting more student. It's kind of a ridiculous premise to say that not playing Dayton is strategic when it comes to institutional branding and attracting more students.

But, let's set that ridiculous premise aside for a second. Let's suppose that is the goal here. What prospective student is swayed in any way by whether or not Xavier and Dayton play?? Whether they play or not is a COMPLETE non-factor in applications, enrollment, and overall institutional branding. I LOVE basketball. I think that's fairly obvious. Yet, not even I think that an OOC game against Dayton, or anyone else, is really all that important in the grand scheme of things when it comes to institutional branding, enrollment, and admissions. It's comedic to argue that it is, and it actually makes Dayton out to be far more important than what they actually are if you truly do believe it to be that cataclysmic.

[xudash]

Exactly how much is Xavier looking to increase its enrollment and/or application pool?? I'm under the impression that they receive upwards of 10,000 applications a year, and enroll roughly 1000. The acceptance rate is lower than the admissions rate, and the enrollment rate is lower than the acceptance rate. If it were Wright State and NKU who are both looking to increase their enrollments then I would understand. But, Xavier turns away applicants. If there was a desire to suddenly drastically increase the enrollment, they could do so by simply accepting more student. It's kind of a ridiculous premise to say that not playing Dayton is strategic when it comes to institutional branding and attracting more students.

But, let's set that ridiculous premise aside for a second. Let's suppose that is the goal here. What prospective student is swayed in any way by whether or not Xavier and Dayton play?? Whether they play or not is a COMPLETE non-factor in applications, enrollment, and overall institutional branding. I LOVE basketball. I think that's fairly obvious. Yet, not even I think that an OOC game against Dayton, or anyone else, is really all that important in the grand scheme of things when it comes to institutional branding, enrollment, and admissions. It's comedic to argue that it is, and it actually makes Dayton out to be far more important than what they actually are if you truly do believe it to be that cataclysmic.

You can't be this clueless.

1. Your entire first paragraph is naive. While the application numbers are very strong, the game is in the YIELD. We could use a little more cushion in our annual yield numbers, and I believe everyone would like the acceptance rate to go down, so that the academic profile can benefit from a statistical lift.

2. This isn't about what one prospective student thinks.

3. This doesn't make Dayton appear "to be far more important than what they actually are"; it simply dismisses Dayton completely from Xavier's scope. You appear to be the one who wants to trumpet Dayton in all this. It sounds from all this as though you're still spending a lot of time on UDPride.

4. There is nothing cataclysmic in any of this.

It's one regional competitor and former rival.

A key event - Xavier's admission to the Big East - allowed for the opportunity to create separation.

Xavier simply took it and has moved on.

That decision may have been made at a level other than that of the athletic administration.

It isn't fact that Xavier doesn't play UD for non-athletic reasons anymore, that idea is a "what if" on my part. Frankly, I've moved on from UD.

Your love affair with Dayton took you to a narrative that includes "ridiculous", "cataclysmic" and "comical."

If you need for the UD game to be reestablished so badly, pop over to the Cintas Center and then perhaps to the second floor of Schmidt Hall and state your case.

[xudash]

Separation is good:


Creighton’s move to the Big East has provided plenty of benefits the past two years.

Perhaps the biggest is the peace of mind that the Bluejays have gained at a time when many folks in college athletics seem to be losing theirs.

Autonomy. Restructuring. Cost of attendance. Images, names and likenesses. Those are the buzzwords that create uncertainty for anyone in college sports these days.

Creighton Athletic Director Bruce Rasmussen counts himself among that crowd. As Rasmussen intently watches the changing landscape of college athletics, he knows being a part of the Big East provides Creighton more of a safety net than had it remained in the Missouri Valley Conference.

“With all the changes, it’s better to be more like the major five conferences than the other 26 conferences,” Rasmussen said. “Other than football, I do think we’re more like the major five conferences than the rest.

“That at least gives us a chance.”

Though none of the 10 schools that joined to form the new Big East plays big-time college football, the conference finds itself aligned with the Power Five on many governance issues.

http://www.omaha.com/creighton/season-in-review-creighton-s-biggest-big-east-benefit-came/article_96e57d3a-42a9-5a82-a423-76f496c02347.html?mode=jqm

And then there is this from the end of the article:

What worries Rasmussen is the impact changes in college athletics could have on his school and the league.

“After two years in the Big East, I think we have a better handle in terms of finances,” he said. “But I don’t know if we have a good handle on what it costs because of the restructuring we’ve had at the Division I level of athletics.

“We still have a lot of uncertainties. The NCAA is named in 32 different lawsuits. What will be our costs after those suits are resolved? What will be our costs related to the issues of student-athlete welfare?”

Moving from the Valley to the Big East created plenty of unknowns, Rasmussen said.

“But when you pair that with the change in the NCAA structure and add in the court cases,” he said, “I don’t think anyone at the Division I level can say they have a good handle on expenses and revenue.”

Perhaps it's about taking advantage of simple distancing plus the fact that there may only be so much room in the "inn" at some point.

[SM#24]

So leave specific schools out of it and just focus on the conferences themselves. I trust you believe that the Big East is a better overall conference in the minds of the general public than the A10.
Of course I do, and it's not only better in the minds but in reality as well. While you didn't go that extreme, I can't count how many times I heard "the Big East is great, we now play Georgetown instead of Fordham" when the reality is we now play DePaul instead of Fordham. And just because the Big East is better, doesn't mean we can't play teams from A10 or other next tier conferences.

[SM#24]

you want to set yourself apart from similar institutions nearby in any way you can...The Villanova example is apples to oranges, as those teams have played each other in the non-conference schedule for years.
You can set yourself apart by scheduling them and beating them with regularity, by being an overall better program in a better conference and having more success. That would really set you apart.

How is the Villanova example different ? We have played Dayton for years, it has to be well over 50 prior to two years ago.

[94GRAD]

You can set yourself apart by scheduling them and beating them with regularity, by being an overall better program in a better conference and having more success. That would really set you apart.

How is the Villanova example different ? We have played Dayton for years, it has to be well over 50 prior to two years ago.

Because those are schools in Philly, not in a different city 50 miles north.

[SM#24]

I think my position is that perhaps I think more of Xavier than others on this board do. I think Xavier the school and its alums are better than anything and everyone associated with Dayton. Dayton wants to be Xavier, Dayton students wish they went to Xavier. I am confident we will always be better, they are no threat to me. No better way to confirm that than to schedule them and beat them with regularity which I am confident we will. If I turn out to be wrong, then we have bigger problems than losing to Dayton, problems that would have nothing to do with losing to Dayton.

[SM#24]

Because those are schools in Philly, not in a different city 50 miles north.
A lot of great rivalries are separated by more than 50 miles.

[XUFan09]

Because those are schools in Philly, not in a different city 50 miles north.
I was actually focusing on the fact that those Philly schools have a tradition of including each other in the non-conference schedule going back quite awhile, while Xavier and Dayton generally do not. It's very different to schedule someone in the non-con versus have them included in your conference schedule. When there's a long tradition behind it, though, momentum and fan expectations will keep it going.

I'm not worried about beating Dayton most of the time. I've already established that I have found no good basketball reason to not play UD. Not playing them right now might just be due to the impracticality of scheduling so soon after changing conferences and the drastic change in scheduling that came with that (along with prior commitments that had to be kept). However, if there's something more going on, I'm confident that the choice is being made for reasons beyond the basketball court.

It could be a relationship issue.

It could be an attempt by Xavier to separate itself, to not be mentioned in the same sentence as Dayton. That's an institutional wide strategy, so you have to think about basketball as simply a useful extension of the university. Brew, you mentioned how whether or not Xavier or Dayton play each other wouldn't sway someone's decision on colleges, and you are correct, but you're setting up a strawman. It's not about the actual moment of the decision; it's about early in the process when high school students are receiving hundreds of pamphlets and hearing a whole lot of highly subjective things.

How often do potential applicants hear about Xavier? How often do they hear about Dayton? What do they hear? Are they presented as institutions on the same level, or is one perceived as being on a higher level than the other? A lot of this is in the subconscious, as good advertising often is. It's safe to say that the conference affiliations help Xavier. Even though academically both conferences have a number of great schools, the Big East is perceived as being more "big-time.". Really, that's only true for athletics and money, but it creeps into the perception of academics in the respective conferences. Unfairly, I might add, but in the world of advertising (in a shrinking private school student market, by the way), there isn't much time for "fairness." If you have a perceived greater academic status, you exploit that perception, true or not, and you can do so without actively misleading students.

This is a big reason why I hope Dayton never joins the Big East. Xavier as an institution, not just as a basketball program, would lose one of the biggest advantages it has over a nearby like-minded school. Scheduling an annual series would not have as big of an affect as sharing a conference affiliation, but it could help Dayton the Institution in the PR department.

Scheduling Dayton cannot be viewed as just scheduling one game. It's an annual series, something very different in perception. The best example of this is the Skip Prosser Classic. Now, I don't know much about Wake Forest as an institution, other than some tidbits here and there, but the series that the two basketball programs have leads me to instinctively equate the two institutions. I'm savvy enough in the realm of college academics and athletics to know that the instinctive equation of the two could be off, and if I were interested in both, I would do the research. When dozens of schools are sending un-savvy teenagers mail, though, they are not going to actually research and compare all of them, only the ones that make the initial cuts. Perception and unconscious biases go a long way early on. Is it a significant difference in this instance? Maybe, maybe not. It's debatable but it definitely shouldn't be dismissed without thought.

Personally, I would prefer a series again, but it's a tough decision on the institutional level.

[SixFig]

For me it's all about alternatives and exposure. If it is between playing Coppin State on CBSSN of FS2 then of course take your chance on Dayton. If the choice is between a "power 5 school" with at least a little chance to be given an ESPN or FS1 feature game don't pick Dayton.

We are building a national program. Playing Dayton (limited national name) vs. pretty much any power 5 school is a no brainer. Let Dayton stew as we play prime time.

If playing Dayton has good TV exposure, go for it.

[XUFan09]

Considering that ESPN always aired the game at Dayton, I think it's a safe bet that FS1 would feature it. Because Fox Sports also takes better care of its Big East teams than ESPN ever did for Xavier, the game at Xavier would probably be on FS1 too. We've seen some pretty crappy opponents on FS1, so I'm not worried about the odds of being on national TV. Road game would probably be ESPN and home game would probably be FS1.

Dayton would attract more media attention than a lot of the Big 5 teams. For example, everyone knows that Mizzou sucks right now, whereas people remember Dayton's recent tournament runs. It's not that Dayton would be a blockbuster game, but you are underestimating the attention it would draw (or overestimating the clout of a lot of P5 teams). It would be seen as a respectable non-conference game, with the rivalry being an added bonus.

[xubrew]

You can't be this clueless.

1. Your entire first paragraph is naive. While the application numbers are very strong, the game is in the YIELD. We could use a little more cushion in our annual yield numbers, and I believe everyone would like the acceptance rate to go down, so that the academic profile can benefit from a statistical lift.

2. This isn't about what one prospective student thinks.

3. This doesn't make Dayton appear "to be far more important than what they actually are"; it simply dismisses Dayton completely from Xavier's scope. You appear to be the one who wants to trumpet Dayton in all this. It sounds from all this as though you're still spending a lot of time on UDPride.

4. There is nothing cataclysmic in any of this.

It's one regional competitor and former rival.

A key event - Xavier's admission to the Big East - allowed for the opportunity to create separation.

Xavier simply took it and has moved on.

That decision may have been made at a level other than that of the athletic administration.

It isn't fact that Xavier doesn't play UD for non-athletic reasons anymore, that idea is a "what if" on my part. Frankly, I've moved on from UD.

Your love affair with Dayton took you to a narrative that includes "ridiculous", "cataclysmic" and "comical."

If you need for the UD game to be reestablished so badly, pop over to the Cintas Center and then perhaps to the second floor of Schmidt Hall and state your case.

What the...??

Playing Dayton will not have any impact whatsoever in our yield or our ability to distance ourselves from them. It makes absolutely no difference either way. Playing them would not shorten the distance. Not playing them would not lengthen the distance. When you argue that it does, you're overstating Dayton's importance. I know there isn't anything cataclysmic about it. You're the one that's talking as if it was when you insinuate about that it has this big overall institutional impact. I do find that to be rather ridiculous, albeit original.

You also bring up the Big East and how it distanced us from them. I want to assure you that if we do schedule them, we'll still be in the Big East and they still will not be.

So, playing Dayton in an exempt game is a bad idea because we have everything to lose, nothing to gain, Dayton will like suck soon so Penn State is preferable (even though that wouldn't be an exempt game), their fans are abusive (this one I actually agree with), and...last but not least...limits our ability to distance themselves from them and this will hurt the yield in our application numbers. Okay, got it. Forgive me if I find that to be ridiculous and comical.

[xubrew]

Because those are schools in Philly, not in a different city 50 miles north.

If you believe Dash's theory, wouldn't this make Nova more institutionally vulnerable since those schools are in the same city, and there are two of them, whereas Dayton is a whole fifty miles away??

[xudash]

If you believe Dash's theory, wouldn't this make Nova more institutionally vulnerable since those schools are in the same city, and there are two of them, whereas Dayton is a whole fifty miles away??

brew,

I'll start with the low hanging fruit with you: can you see where it might be more involved than just the factor of distance?

Nova does not for a minute feel vulnerable. It sits out in Villanova, PA next to Radnor on the Mainline. It doesn't compete with LaSalle for students and I doubt it competes too much with St. Joe's; certainly not enough where it worries about St. Joe's.

Additionally, the Big 5 is the Big 5. It won't get touched or affected by conference realignment, as it is highly unlikely that either LaSalle or St. Joe's will ever find their way into the Big East.

On the other hand, it isn't about Xavier feeling vulnerable when it comes to UD. But it is a fact that UD and Xavier compete for students, are Catholic schools located within 50 miles of each other in Ohio, and are held in the same regard academically. So, given that, and given that the OPPORTUNITY was presented when Xavier transitioned to the Big East, I put out a possible scenario for why we don't play them anymore that happens to have nothing to do with basketball related motives or reasons.

Otherwise:

1. You brought the word "cataclysmic" into all this.

2. Not once did I position the impact of the possibility as having some big institutional impact; it was about opportunity presented, opportunity taken (perhaps). The impact, if any, would be subtle over time, but would probably trail the perception impact anyway.

3. The following sentence is truly stupid: "You also bring up the Big East and how it distanced us from them. I want to assure you that if we do schedule them, we'll still be in the Big East and they still will not be." If we're trying to distance ourselves from them, then we won't schedule them.

4. "Playing Dayton will not have any impact whatsoever in our yield or our ability to distance ourselves from them. It makes absolutely no difference either way." - - You truly are clueless if you think that. It isn't even a matter of degree, and is at least as much a matter of perception, as I touched upon above. More to the point, I can't imagine that Dayton's leadership isn't clamoring to get into the Big East. I would be stunned if they're indifferent about it. They must want into it for reasons having to do with association at the institutional level as much as they do for reasons associated with athletics. IF that is true, then the idea of us distancing ourselves from them has some merit and isn't as far fetched.

I wonder if those years where I was discussing Butler in that fashion occurred before their back-to-back F4's. I really don't know and I really don't care.

We've now had two seasons where we haven't played them and we made it to the NCAA Tournament both times; it's one potential game among many potential options. The Prosser game is coming back online. And we'll now be playing Michigan in the BE/B1G Challenge. The UC game is back to normal. We have our SEC 1:1's continuing to cycle through. I'd say we're in pretty good shape overall. Whether there are good reasons or not for scheduling them, I just don't believe it's necessary. They're very much in the rear view mirror for me.

Finally, it seems as though this UD thing really has you upset. As I mentioned before, go state your case to the people making the decisions for the University and see what kind of reaction you get.

[waggy]

Dayton should go play Wright State or something.

GO
A
WAY

[XMuskieFTW]

Dayton should go play Wright State or something.

GO
A
WAY

Pffffft who plays Wright State these days...

[xubrew]

brew,

I'll start with the low hanging fruit with you: can you see where it might be more involved than just the factor of distance?

Nova does not for a minute feel vulnerable. It sits out in Villanova, PA next to Radnor on the Mainline. It doesn't compete with LaSalle for students and I doubt it competes too much with St. Joe's; certainly not enough where it worries about St. Joe's.

Additionally, the Big 5 is the Big 5. It won't get touched or affected by conference realignment, as it is highly unlikely that either LaSalle or St. Joe's will ever find their way into the Big East.

On the other hand, it isn't about Xavier feeling vulnerable when it comes to UD. But it is a fact that UD and Xavier compete for students, are Catholic schools located within 50 miles of each other in Ohio, and are held in the same regard academically. So, given that, and given that the OPPORTUNITY was presented when Xavier transitioned to the Big East, I put out a possible scenario for why we don't play them anymore that happens to have nothing to do with basketball related motives or reasons.

Otherwise:

1. You brought the word "cataclysmic" into all this.

2. Not once did I position the impact of the possibility as having some big institutional impact; it was about opportunity presented, opportunity taken (perhaps). The impact, if any, would be subtle over time, but would probably trail the perception impact anyway.

3. The following sentence is truly stupid: "You also bring up the Big East and how it distanced us from them. I want to assure you that if we do schedule them, we'll still be in the Big East and they still will not be." If we're trying to distance ourselves from them, then we won't schedule them.

4. "Playing Dayton will not have any impact whatsoever in our yield or our ability to distance ourselves from them. It makes absolutely no difference either way." - - You truly are clueless if you think that. It isn't even a matter of degree, and is at least as much a matter of perception, as I touched upon above. More to the point, I can't imagine that Dayton's leadership isn't clamoring to get into the Big East. I would be stunned if they're indifferent about it. They must want into it for reasons having to do with association at the institutional level as much as they do for reasons associated with athletics. IF that is true, then the idea of us distancing ourselves from them has some merit and isn't as far fetched.

I wonder if those years where I was discussing Butler in that fashion occurred before their back-to-back F4's. I really don't know and I really don't care.

We've now had two seasons where we haven't played them and we made it to the NCAA Tournament both times; it's one potential game among many potential options. The Prosser game is coming back online. And we'll now be playing Michigan in the BE/B1G Challenge. The UC game is back to normal. We have our SEC 1:1's continuing to cycle through. I'd say we're in pretty good shape overall. Whether there are good reasons or not for scheduling them, I just don't believe it's necessary. They're very much in the rear view mirror for me.

Finally, it seems as though this UD thing really has you upset. As I mentioned before, go state your case to the people making the decisions for the University and see what kind of reaction you get.

I brought in the word "cataclysmic" to sum up your take on it, not because I myself believe it to be that way. In fact when I try to explain why I don't believe it to be cataclysmic, you say that I'm clueless and stupid.


3. The following sentence is truly stupid: "You also bring up the Big East and how it distanced us from them. I want to assure you that if we do schedule them, we'll still be in the Big East and they still will not be." If we're trying to distance ourselves from them, then we won't schedule them.

How is that stupid?? Does scheduling Dayton in an OOC game mean that they're going to join the Big East?? If not, then I think we'd still be distant from them whether we scheduled them or not.


4. "Playing Dayton will not have any impact whatsoever in our yield or our ability to distance ourselves from them. It makes absolutely no difference either way." - - You truly are clueless if you think that. It isn't even a matter of degree, and is at least as much a matter of perception, as I touched upon above. More to the point, I can't imagine that Dayton's leadership isn't clamoring to get into the Big East. I would be stunned if they're indifferent about it. They must want into it for reasons having to do with association at the institutional level as much as they do for reasons associated with athletics. IF that is true, then the idea of us distancing ourselves from them has some merit and isn't as far fetched.

I'm not talking about Dayton getting into the Big East. Why do you keep mentioning that?? I'm talking about an OOC game.

I don't work in admissions, but I know several people that do at all different types of institutions. I assure you that none of them are under the belief that the scheduling of a single OOC basketball game has any sort of impact on how perspective students perceive the school. This is the first.

You say you throw this out as a "possible scenario." I don't think any of what you're saying has anything to do whatsoever as to why X and UD don't play, and if you're honest with yourself I doubt you do either. I think the coaches and athletic department at Xavier simply don't want to play them. It's nothing more than that. If the coaches or AD wanted the game, it would absolutely happen. They wouldn't be shot down by university officials because of your possible scenario.


Finally, it seems as though this UD thing really has you upset. As I mentioned before, go state your case to the people making the decisions for the University and see what kind of reaction you get.

Oh yeah, because that would be the sensible thing to do. I do know one thing, they probably wouldn't list your possible scenario as the actual one.

It isn't X vs UD specifically that bothers me. It's the kind of thinking that now exists in college athletics. It's West Virginia v Pitt, Texas v Texas A&M, Kansas v Missouri, Indiana v Kentucky, Syracuse v Georgetown (although that one is coming back), and several others that are on the list. Xavier v Dayton isn't anywhere near the top of that list, but it is on the list of schools that have an opportunity to play an intriguing OOC game, but opt not to for reasons that are stupid. College basketball could use more intrigue in the months of November and December. 70 percent of the OOC games suck and aren't worth watching. And, yet, people sit around and wonder why the sport doesn't get attention early in the season, and why arenas aren't full, and why TV ratings are down. They'll pass up a game of obvious intrigue, and then wonder why more people aren't intrigued. I mean, when Texas and Texas A&M sit around and try to think of who they could schedule that would interest the fans in November and December, yet insist they have nothing to gain from playing each other, it's "comical and ridiculous" (as it appears I like to say). It's not playing Dayton in and of itself. It's the mentality of passing up an obvious game of intrigue for reasons that simply are not logical that bothers me, and it's the fact that that kind of thinking exists nationwide. This case is particularly crazy since we have the chance to play them in an extra exempt game, but are still going to pass on the opportunity.

[Xavier]

Another advantage to playing Dayton is when we play @Dayton it's a 40 minute drive to typically get what would be considered a good road win. This is one of the reasons I liked playing UC at US Bank. Also because the atmosphere was pretty cool (could have something to do with X winning by 20 when I went..) don't get me wrong, it's better on campus, but it wasn't as bad as some said.

[xudash]

You were being presumptuous to sum up my take on all this. It's that simple, as far as that goes. Not once did I suggest that such a strategy was or is tantamount to Xavier's ability to compete moving forward.

IF we are trying to "distance" ourselves from Dayton, then we're not going to schedule them in the OOC schedule. I can't see how that is difficult to comprehend. If we're not trying to "distance" ourselves from UD, then scheduling an OOC game with them would certainly be a possibility.

The Big East and this OOC game that you want so badly is mentioned in the same context due to the fact that we're discussing the idea of separation. The point about UD wanting into the Big East, assuming they do and they do badly at that, amplifies the notion that separation has occurred - - that they perceive themselves as having been left out. If this notion is in play, then separation has occurred with Xavier's move to the Big East and it is further maintained by not scheduling UD in the OOC. The last thing X would do, if separation is in play, is to acknowledge UD by scheduling them in the OOC. My idea may be nuts, but I guess you simply refuse to acknowledge that those outcomes would be most likely under such a scenario.

I threw it out as a possible scenario without passion or prejudice. It was an idea that came to me that I shared here. You are much more passionate about this UD thing than I. As I've noted before, I see Xavier as being far ahead of UD. I'm more than willing to keep them in my rear view mirror and forget about them; I've moved on from them.

Finally, as I am done with this, your last paragraph has substantial merit. In the case of the X/UD game specifically, you believe the reasons we don't play them emanate from the athletic side of Xavier's house. It may or may not be that simple. Either way, we aren't playing them and there is not a peep of information or activity that suggests we will be playing them any time soon. Had we really wanted to continue a series with UD, I believe it would already be back up and running by now, or announced as coming back online by now.

Time will obviously tell what happens with the opportunity for scheduling UD in basketball.

[Cheesehead]

The way Mack talked about UD at the Butler Co Steak Fry leaves me w/ the impression that he is no hurry to play Dayton. Before the question & answer period started he stated he would not answer any questions about playing UD and said to go ask Mario about it. I may be reading into too much but his body language also suggested he could care less if XU plays Dayton, IMO.

[MuskieCinci]

Based on some of the ideas in this thread, I'm wondering if some posters believe UC got booted from the Big East and we got invited to the Big East because we beat them so often OOC, and they are worried if we play Dayton the same thing may happen to us.

Can anyone just admit the biggest reason most people do not want the game is because UD fans care about it more than Xavier fans do, and instead of being able to point to our conference as an indicator that we are better than UD would have to point to an actual game result and sometimes the result could be a loss?

[waggy]

Oh I think it's been unequivocally decided that X is better than Dayton.

[Xavier]

Yeah, I don't think being scared is why fans do or don't want to play Dayton.

[muskiefan82]

Can't I just hate Dayton and not want X to play them just because that is what I want?

[drudy23]

Dayton is a solid test year in and year out. They aren't going to be a consistently better program, but they're a team, much like many in the NCAA tournament every year, that is good enough to beat 2-3 teams in the tourney each year. It's good to have teams like that on your schedule to prepare you.

[Perma Fro]

Can we just get back to the chicken wing conversation? It is much more entertaining.

[casualfan]

Can't I just hate Dayton and not want X to play them just because that is what I want?

Absolutely.

It's all the bending over backwards people do to come up with reasons that aren't what you just said.

None of them end up making any sense because that's not what people really mean.

The enrollment argument is almost as dumb as the "nothing to gain" one.

People are fishing for reasons that make sense because they ultimately don't want to just say "i don't like dayton and would prefer we not play them because of it".

[waggy]

Here's an expression you might've heard.. It's all over but the crying.

And since we're dealing with the actual Cryers.... Well, this could take a while...

[Olsingledigit]

This is very simple. We don't need Dayton and frankly they don't need us. I have had my fill with their nonsense every time I have gone up there so for me that is enough to not want to play them. Nothing to be gained by X playing them. It is that simple. Just leave it at that and leave UD out.

[Xville]

I really want to see Xavier play a team like Gonzaga for ten years straight. It benefits both schools, and makes a ton of sense. I don't see why this hasn't happened yet. I know we played I believe two years in a row and lost, but that loss doesn't cripple us and I want to see us beef up our non-con a little bit more.

I keep hearing the "we have a tough conference we don't need to play big time schools out of conference anymore." I understand there is an RPI game to be played, but really I think that kind of statement is a bunch of hooey. I like that we are playing Michigan this coming year, but I believe we should have 2-3 games like that ever year outside of the UC Game....I mean why the heck not? Maybe we did try to..I mean did we believe Mizzou was going to be this bad when we scheduled them...or that Wake would continue to be terrible?

[casualfan]

I really want to see Xavier play a team like Gonzaga for ten years straight. It benefits both schools, and makes a ton of sense. I don't see why this hasn't happened yet. I know we played I believe two years in a row and lost, but that loss doesn't cripple us and I want to see us beef up our non-con a little bit more.

I keep hearing the "we have a tough conference we don't need to play big time schools out of conference anymore." I understand there is an RPI game to be played, but really I think that kind of statement is a bunch of hooey. I like that we are playing Michigan this coming year, but I believe we should have 2-3 games like that ever year outside of the UC Game....I mean why the heck not? Maybe we did try to..I mean did we believe Mizzou was going to be this bad when we scheduled them...or that Wake would continue to be terrible?

You and every other college fanbase out there.

This year Gonzaga plays the following teams OOC:

Arizona
UCLA
SMU
Washington State
Pittsburgh

They are also in the battle 4 atlantis where they'll play 3 of the following teams:

Syracuse
UCONN
Texas
Michigan
Texas A&M
Washington
Charlotte

That's 8 OOC games against high majors. Scheduling is a two-way street and in Gonzaga's case it looks like they load up on schools from areas where they recruit heavily (i.e. West coast and Texas).

Pittsburgh is the one outlier, but this is a made for TV game by ESPN.

The long and short of it is that while we may be interested in scheduling Gonzaga, I'm not sure that interest would be reciprocal.

We're not located in an area where they recruit and we're certainly not going to get a made for TV game with them.

[XUFan09]

Absolutely.

It's all the bending over backwards people do to come up with reasons that aren't what you just said.

None of them end up making any sense because that's not what people really mean.

The enrollment argument is almost as dumb as the "nothing to gain" one.

People are fishing for reasons that make sense because they ultimately don't want to just say "i don't like dayton and would prefer we not play them because of it".

I've said all along that I want to play them, that there aren't good basketball reasons not to. There is absolutely no bending over backwards going on here (though plenty others on the board are guilty of that). Knowing Dash, he also tends to view these issues of institutional plans, conference realignment, etc., rather dispassionately, with a focus on Xavier's self-interest. It's funny that you dismiss the enrollment argument so easily, without even providing any critique.

Why isn't Xavier scheduling Dayton then?

[casualfan]

I've said all along that I want to play them, that there aren't good basketball reasons not to. There is absolutely no bending over backwards going on here (though plenty others on the board are guilty of that). Knowing Dash, he also tends to view these issues of institutional plans, conference realignment, etc., rather dispassionately, with a focus on Xavier's self-interest. It's funny that you dismiss the enrollment argument so easily, without even providing any critique.

Why isn't Xavier scheduling Dayton then?

I have no idea. That's kind of the point of the discussion right?

I just don't think it has anything to with enrollment. If avoiding teams we compete for students with was a major scheduling criteria I doubt we'd be playing Miami (OH) every year. Or UC. Or Wright State. Or NKU.

[Xville]

You and every other college fanbase out there.

This year Gonzaga plays the following teams OOC:

Arizona
UCLA
SMU
Washington State
Pittsburgh

They are also in the battle 4 atlantis where they'll play 3 of the following teams:

Syracuse
UCONN
Texas
Michigan
Texas A&M
Washington
Charlotte

That's 8 OOC games against high majors. Scheduling is a two-way street and in Gonzaga's case it looks like they load up on schools from areas where they recruit heavily (i.e. West coast and Texas).

Pittsburgh is the one outlier, but this is a made for TV game by ESPN.

The long and short of it is that while we may be interested in scheduling Gonzaga, I'm not sure that interest would be reciprocal.

We're not located in an area where they recruit and we're certainly not going to get a made for TV game with them.

Well I wonder then how we scheduled a home-home with them before? We have done it once, im sure we could again. If not Gonzaga, then someone around either that skill level or a touch below....a program that isn't going to be fallen off a cliff in the next 2-3 years would be nice. Maybe the fun BYU, or someone like that. I know Gonzaga is in a much weaker conference than us, but I would still like for us to schedule the way they do in the non-con.....it helps nationally and is a big reason why ESPN sucks them off every year.

[casualfan]

Well I wonder then how we scheduled a home-home with them before? We have done it once, im sure we could again. If not Gonzaga, then someone around either that skill level or a touch below....a program that isn't going to be fallen off a cliff in the next 2-3 years would be nice. Maybe the fun BYU, or someone like that. I know Gonzaga is in a much weaker conference than us, but I would still like for us to schedule the way they do in the non-con.....it helps nationally and is a big reason why ESPN sucks them off every year.

That series was scheduled prior to the 2010 season when we were still in an ESPN league. I would bet dollars to donuts that ESPN played a big part in setting that up.

Since then we changed leagues and are now in an FS1 league. ESPN isn't going to do us any favors anymore.

[Xville]

That series was scheduled prior to the 2010 season when we were still in an ESPN league. I would bet dollars to donuts that ESPN played a big part in setting that up.

Since then we changed leagues and are now in an FS1 league. ESPN isn't going to do us any favors anymore.

You may be correct in that. I really don't remember to be honest. All I am saying though is that I would like for us to beef up our non-con...even if it is on FS1 or mother ship Fox or whatever channel, it would still help nationally I believe and get us pub early in the season. Michigan is a good start, but id like to see 2-3 more just like it outside of UC.

Gtown played Florida, Wisconsin, KU and IU last year
Marquette played Ohio State, Michigan State, Tennessee, Wisconsin
Providence played ND and UK
Nova played VCU, Michigan and Syracuse.

If those schools can do it in our conference, we could too. I want to see Xavier do more of this type of scheduling, I think its important.

[XUFan09]

I have no idea. That's kind of the point of the discussion right?

I just don't think it has anything to with enrollment. If avoiding teams we compete for students with was a major scheduling criteria I doubt we'd be playing Miami (OH) every year. Or UC. Or Wright State. Or NKU.

There is an obvious difference between Dayton and the schools you listed, to the point that you appear disingenuous. The only time Xavier competes with the schools you listed is when it's a local kid who wants to stay in the immediate area. Now, that competition is significant too, but it's a different type of competition. Xavier doesn't have to worry about distinguishing itself from a group of state schools. By its very nature, it's already distinct from them and can play up its advantages while not mentioning its disadvantages. Scheduling these schools and getting some media on that actually serves to highlight the distinctions that Xavier can leverage. It makes Xavier out to be "the private school of southwestern Ohio" when it plays the various public schools in the area.

Dayton, though, is like Xavier. It is a smaller Catholic school with a focus on a well-rounded education, but it still offers a good variety of majors/programs. The two schools are competing for the same type of student, not just in the immediate southwestern Ohio area but in the entire region. And they are directly competing with each other in a period when:

(1) nationwide private school enrollment has been falling significantly, and
(2) Xavier is trying to maintain an enrollment that is much, much higher than just a few years ago, while maintaining its standards and selectivity, key components of its high rankings in the Midwest for its school type ("regional university").

It is abundantly clear that Xavier has a significant interest in separating itself from Dayton, in creating and then maintaining the mythos of "the private school of the southwestern Ohio." Establishing such an image would be really good for Xavier, and as it's been for thirty years, basketball is a big driver of that image.

The Big East is really helpful for that goal of separation, whether that is fair academically or not. It is in Xavier's best interest that Dayton never joins the Big East, that they remain in the A10. When one parses the two conferences, one finds good to great academic institutions in both, but appearances benefit the conference that is more "big-time." The question then is whether this same logic extends to whether Xavier should establish an annual non-conference series with Dayton. It's important to understand that the distinction between one home-and-home series versus an annual series. Home-and-homes don't really establish a strong association between schools, but annual series very well can. Xavier and Cincinnati get associated together, but it quickly becomes a study in contrasts. Xavier and Wake Forest get associated together (though the hiccups in this series weaken that association), but they are multiple states away from one another. Xavier and Dayton would get associated with each other if they played together, and the series would highlight their institutional and geographical similarities. Is that association strong enough to make it unappealing to Xavier the Institution, to make the series contrary to Xavier's interests? That is up for debate. What isn't up for debate is everything before that.

[bobbiemcgee]

Why isn't Xavier scheduling Dayton then?

I think it's obvious. Nothing to gain for X, everything to gain for UD by potentially beating a Top 25 team. UD doesn't even get to the Dance last year unless they beat VCU (without their best player) on the road in the last week of the season. Dance cmte. was looking for at large teams that competed with the Top 25. X easily qualified as they did well against the best without needing to go OOC and is set up to do the same this year. UD never schedules tough OOC games and they can't get them in the the weak ass A-10 RPI challenged conference, so they are setting themselves up for more disapointment at Dance time. Their whole season may come down to beating Iowa in the Orlando Classic. Lose and they are facing 2 sub RPI 100 teams.

[casualfan]

There is an obvious difference between Dayton and the schools you listed, to the point that you appear disingenuous. The only time Xavier competes with the schools you listed is when it's a local kid who wants to stay in the immediate area. Now, that competition is significant too, but it's a different type of competition. Xavier doesn't have to worry about distinguishing itself from a group of state schools. By its very nature, it's already distinct from them and can play up its advantages while not mentioning its disadvantages. Scheduling these schools and getting some media on that actually serves to highlight the distinctions that Xavier can leverage. It makes Xavier out to be "the private school of southwestern Ohio" when it plays the various public schools in the area.

Dayton, though, is like Xavier. It is a smaller Catholic school with a focus on a well-rounded education, but it still offers a good variety of majors/programs. The two schools are competing for the same type of student, not just in the immediate southwestern Ohio area but in the entire region. And they are directly competing with each other in a period when:

(1) nationwide private school enrollment has been falling significantly, and
(2) Xavier is trying to maintain an enrollment that is much, much higher than just a few years ago, while maintaining its standards and selectivity, key components of its high rankings in the Midwest for its school type ("regional university").

It is abundantly clear that Xavier has a significant interest in separating itself from Dayton, in creating and then maintaining the mythos of "the private school of the southwestern Ohio." Establishing such an image would be really good for Xavier, and as it's been for thirty years, basketball is a big driver of that image.

The Big East is really helpful for that goal of separation, whether that is fair academically or not. It is in Xavier's best interest that Dayton never joins the Big East, that they remain in the A10. When one parses the two conferences, one finds good to great academic institutions in both, but appearances benefit the conference that is more "big-time." The question then is whether this same logic extends to whether Xavier should establish an annual non-conference series with Dayton. It's important to understand that the distinction between one home-and-home series versus an annual series. Home-and-homes don't really establish a strong association between schools, but annual series very well can. Xavier and Cincinnati get associated together, but it quickly becomes a study in contrasts. Xavier and Wake Forest get associated together (though the hiccups in this series weaken that association), but they are multiple states away from one another. Xavier and Dayton would get associated with each other if they played together, and the series would highlight their institutional and geographical similarities. Is that association strong enough to make it unappealing to Xavier the Institution, to make the series contrary to Xavier's interests? That is up for debate. What isn't up for debate is everything before that.

Sorry, just not buying it.

We never had any issues scheduling Butler before we were in the same league as them.

If what you're saying is true the same thought process should have applied there.

[casualfan]

I think it's obvious. Nothing to gain for X, everything to gain for UD by potentially beating a Top 25 team. UD doesn't even get to the Dance last year unless they beat VCU (without their best player) on the road in the last week of the season. Dance cmte. was looking for at large teams that competed with the Top 25. X easily qualified as they did well against the best without needing to go OOC and is set up to do the same this year. UD never schedules tough OOC games and they can't get them in the the weak ass A-10 RPI challenged conference, so they are setting themselves up for more disapointment at Dance time. Their whole season may come down to beating Iowa in the Orlando Classic. Lose and they are facing 2 sub RPI 100 teams.

They're a top 50 opponent. You know how many OOC top 50 opponents we played last year? 2. You can make an argument that a win against Dayton last year would have moved us up two seed lines from a 6 to a 4.

That is something to gain.

[Xville]

the reason we aren't playing dayton is because of Chris Mack, which I empathize with. The rest is diving way too deeply and I really doubt the administration is thinking about some of the word vomit that has come out over the last few posts.

[XUFan09]

Sorry, just not buying it.

We never had any issues scheduling Butler before we were in the same league as them.

If what you're saying is true the same thought process should have applied there.
Butler isn't Catholic and they are much farther away, relatively speaking On a regional level, it also matters that they are in another state. It just "feels" farther away. For example, I bet a lot of non-locals would assume that Columbus is closer than Indy to Cincinnati instead of being about equidistant.

[X-man]

I have no idea. That's kind of the point of the discussion right?

I just don't think it has anything to with enrollment. If avoiding teams we compete for students with was a major scheduling criteria I doubt we'd be playing Miami (OH) every year. Or UC. Or Wright State. Or NKU.

While it would be nice to pad our win total every year by playing the Cryers, I am totally in favor of never scheduling their sorry asses again. Their fans are the worst, their arena is a dump, and their fans' treatment of the Mack's the last time we played there was appalling. Never again, I say.

[GoMuskies]

From a strictly academic standpoint, I'm afraid that if we "distance" Xavier from Dayton it's not going to be in a direction we like.

[Xville]

From a strictly academic standpoint, I'm afraid that if we "distance" Xavier from Dayton it's not going to be in a direction we like.

has something happened in the last ten years that I am unaware of from an academic standpoint? Ten years ago at worst they were on equal footing, at best Xavier had a slight advantage at least in terms of my perception and others around me even those that went to UD.

[GoMuskies]

Dayton is classified as a national university with a 52% acceptance rate. Xavier is a regional university with a 70% acceptance rate. I wouldn't pick Dayton over Xavier (obv), but I don't think DAYTON is any danger of being perceived as inferior to Xavier from an academic standpoint.

[Xville]

Dayton is classified as a national university with a 52% acceptance rate. Xavier is a regional university with a 70% acceptance rate. I wouldn't pick Dayton over Xavier (obv), but I don't think DAYTON is any danger of being perceived as inferior to Xavier from an academic standpoint.

Interesting....I always perceived Dayton as being inferior since I was a freshman in high school until now to be honest. A lot of that though was perception from high school in Saint Louis. I saw the guys that were going to Xavier, and then saw the ones that went to Dayton and I will leave it at that. Also, when I was applying to colleges, Dayton was offering way way more money than Xavier was.

[Olsingledigit]

Interesting....I always perceived Dayton as being inferior since I was a freshman in high school until now to be honest. A lot of that though was perception from high school in Saint Louis. I saw the guys that were going to Xavier, and then saw the ones that went to Dayton and I will leave it at that. Also, when I was applying to colleges, Dayton was offering way way more money than Xavier was.

Endowment has a lot to do with the rankings and UD blows us away in the endowment area (as do most schools). It gives them a lot more flexibility in giving out money.

[Xville]

Endowment has a lot to do with the rankings and UD blows us away in the endowment area (as do most schools). It gives them a lot more flexibility in giving out money.

oh man...i thought it was my charming personality and good looks. Wrong again.....

[bobbiemcgee]

They're a top 50 opponent. You know how many OOC top 50 opponents we played last year? 2. You can make an argument that a win against Dayton last year would have moved us up two seed lines from a 6 to a 4.

That is something to gain.

Yeah, there were a bunch of 4 seeds with 13 losses. Would have made zero difference. Dayton was the LAST Team in the 68.

[Xavier]

Yeah, there were a bunch of 4 seeds with 13 losses. Would have made zero difference. Dayton was the LAST Team in the 68.

Thinking the same thing. Up to a 4 seed? No freaking way.

[casualfan]

Yeah, there were a bunch of 4 seeds with 13 losses. Would have made zero difference. Dayton was the LAST Team in the 68.

We were seeded 24th which was the last 6 seed. (http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/eye-on-college-basketball/25109120/ncaa-tournament-selection-committee-releases-1-68-ranking)

There's no debating that another top 35 win would have moved us up the s curve. How far is anyone's guess, but I think it would have got us close to a 5.

The only reason i said I think it might have got us up two seed lines is because Georgetown, who we beat 3 times, was the last 4 at 16.

If we were a little closer to them I think the committee would have had to look at us getting the nod. Not saying it would have ended up happening, but it's a conversation that would have taken place if we were on the 5 line and they were on the 4.

[X-band '01]

Yeah, there were a bunch of 4 seeds with 13 losses. Would have made zero difference. Dayton was the LAST Team in the 68.

True, but the national perception was that Dayton being the last at-large (along with UCLA's inclusion in the tournament) was a complete farce.

They're not going to fall in the A-10 anytime soon. Who else would be favored there - Rhode Island? Davidson? VCU 2.0?

[XUFan09]

the reason we aren't playing dayton is because of Chris Mack, which I empathize with. The rest is diving way too deeply and I really doubt the administration is thinking about some of the word vomit that has come out over the last few posts.
I would bet that Mack at the least is not interested in playing the game. However, just like Mick Cronin and the Crosstown Shootout, I don't think this is a game where Mack gets the full say. If the administration wanted it, it would happen. Either they have mixed feelings about it or they don't want it too.

[bobbiemcgee]

True, but the national perception was that Dayton being the last at-large (along with UCLA's inclusion in the tournament) was a complete farce.

They're not going to fall in the A-10 anytime soon. Who else would be favored there - Rhode Island? Davidson? VCU 2.0?

Well, yeah, UD should win it every yr and get the auto-bid but don't. They should count 14-16 gimme wins before the first ball goes up in conference. I think the cmte. was right. They didn't play a tough schedule. They just had a bunch of wins over Fordham, George Mason, St. Louis, etc. Davidson was picked last and jumped in and beat the crap out of the A-10. Why? Cuz the A-10 wasn't very good.

[fellahmuskie]

Link to bracket and schedule - AdvoCare Invitational Schedule (http://espnevents.com/advocare-invitational/news-and-updates/2015-advocare-invitational-bracket-released/)

X plays Alabama at noon Thanksgiving on ESPN2. Would face winner of USC/Wichita St.

[nuts4xu]

Xavier will not schedule UD because there is no benefit to the game. We win, we are supposed to win. We lose, it's an RPI drag the rest of the season.

I asked Greg Christopher if we will see UD on our schedule in the future, and he said "no, we do not see a reason to".

[X-band '01]

If losing to UD (a likely NCAA Tournament team) is an RPI drag, what would you say about losses to UTEP, Long Beach State and USC in recent years? Shit, if Xavier manages to mess the bed against Alabama and even lose to USC, that would be disaster.

To me, what's funny is that Xavier will have played Alabama 3 straight years and the only possible matchup with Dayton would either come in an exempt tournament or postseason tournament. A rivalry with Alabama can't be too far-fetched if ESPN was willing to showcase Xavier-Georgia on ESPNU during Rivalry Week a few years back.

[kyxu]

Dayton is HARDLY an RPI drag, and a win over/loss to them is far more beneficial than with teams like Alabama or those X-Band mentioned above. You can bury your head in the sand as much as you want, but Dayton is a very quality opponent whom we would benefit playing regularly.

Christ, we sound like a bunch of UC fans.

[GetUp5]

Dayton, 100%, is NOT an RPI drag.

As a Xavier fan, I think we're relishing being in the situation where we can big league them. We're in a better conference now and have essentially moved on from the 'mid major' A-10. The best way for us to show that to Dayton is to not schedule them unless they come to Cintas every year, which they won't.

I'm fine with demanding they come here if they want to play us. We had more than a decade of success that put us in a position to demand that from them.

Do I think it would benefit us to play them? Absolutely- they've proven to be a tournament team the past couple seasons. But, there's a lot of other teams who we can play that also made the tournament and it feels good to big league our little brother.

[D-West & PO-Z]

Yeah I would like to start playing UD again. Every fan is different but I have always disliked UC wayyy more than UD. And UD as an RPI drag is kind of a strange thing to say. Some years maybe but not the last couple. I always liked the UD XU rivalry and think it is a shame it isnt continuing.

[Olsingledigit]

Dayton is HARDLY an RPI drag, and a win over/loss to them is far more beneficial than with teams like Alabama or those X-Band mentioned above. You can bury your head in the sand as much as you want, but Dayton is a very quality opponent whom we would benefit playing regularly.

Christ, we sound like a bunch of UC fans.

Say what you want, but we can easily obtain an OOC opponent every year equal to UD in RPI quality. I am in the camp that says we have no reason to play them. They have acted badly toward X over the years and they treat our fans with utter disdain and worse when we are at UD. Even when we were there two years ago to play NC State in the play in game their fans were poorly behaved as to X. We simply don't need to play them so why the urge by so many of you to get them back on the schedule?

[D-West & PO-Z]

Say what you want, but we can easily obtain an OOC opponent every year equal to UD in RPI quality. I am in the camp that says we have no reason to play them. They have acted badly toward X over the years and they treat our fans with utter disdain and worse when we are at UD. Even when we were there two years ago to play NC State in the play in game their fans were poorly behaved as to X. We simply don't need to play them so why the urge by so many of you to get them back on the schedule?

Because it is a rivalry, a pretty good one at that. One we mostly came out on top of given we always won at home and were usually 50/50 chance to win there but still a good rivalry. I cant stand UC, their players, coach, fans but I would never want to stop playing them. Rivalries are good for sports, especially college sports.

[kyxu]

Say what you want, but we can easily obtain an OOC opponent every year equal to UD in RPI quality. I am in the camp that says we have no reason to play them. They have acted badly toward X over the years and they treat our fans with utter disdain and worse when we are at UD. Even when we were there two years ago to play NC State in the play in game their fans were poorly behaved as to X. We simply don't need to play them so why the urge by so many of you to get them back on the schedule?

Never made the argument that we *needed* to play them. I am responding to the assertion that playing them harms our profile, which is downright laughable.

They're a quality opponent that is better than a lot of the OOC opponents we typically schedule. Considering many opponents with RPIs that are perennially comparable to UD's won't schedule a home-and-home with Xavier, I am perfectly fine with putting them on in place of someone like Alabama or Auburn.

[D-West & PO-Z]

If we wanted XU to decide not to play every team that had douchey fans there wouldn't be a lot of teams left to play.

[XUFan09]

Say what you want, but we can easily obtain an OOC opponent every year equal to UD in RPI quality.

Actually, scheduling isn't that easy. Finding the right opponent can be quite difficult, especially when you consider all the scheduling commitments already in place by each school and all the competing plans of various coaches. To treat that labyrinth of scheduling like it is no big deal is to discredit the work Mario Mercurio does.

The nice thing about UD is even if they end up worse than expected, they still will probably be a top 100 opponent, because they won't start dropping a bunch of games in a row in conference like a major team could. That's something that a decent Alabama team did a couple years ago, losing a lot of close games in conference and falling out of the top 100 of RPI.

Also, how many RPI 25-75 could Xavier beat so regularly on the road, while beating 100% of the time at home?

[XUFan09]

If we wanted XU to decide not to play every team that had douchey fans there wouldn't be a lot of teams left to play.
Seriously.

[casualfan]

Say what you want, but we can easily obtain an OOC opponent every year equal to UD in RPI quality. I am in the camp that says we have no reason to play them. They have acted badly toward X over the years and they treat our fans with utter disdain and worse when we are at UD. Even when we were there two years ago to play NC State in the play in game their fans were poorly behaved as to X. We simply don't need to play them so why the urge by so many of you to get them back on the schedule?

Yep. We have such an easy time booking top 35 games in the OOC that last year we played 0.

[Xville]

I really don't give a crap if we play them or not....I do hope though that our non-con gets better...say what you want but the fact remains that our non-con schedule has been pretty crappy since we joined the Big East. For those saying we don't need to have that great of a non-con because we are in the Big East now is lame. There are plenty of good teams in good conferences that play a number of strong teams in their non-con. We need to do the same.

[Xville]

Yep. We have such an easy time booking top 35 games in the OOC that last year we played 0.

My question is...is it because we tried to schedule them and didn't succeed, or is it a philosophical idea that we don't need to schedule those kinds of teams in the non-con because of the league that we are in unless we are forced to like the big east/ big 10 challenge. I hope it isn't the latter.

[XUFan09]

My question is...is it because we tried to schedule them and didn't succeed, or is it a philosophical idea that we don't need to schedule those kinds of teams in the non-con because of the league that we are in unless we are forced to like the big east/ big 10 challenge. I hope it isn't the latter.
Probably neither. Two years ago, the team was adjusting to the Big East, which also meant they suddenly had two fewer games to work with in the non-con. This past season, they put together a really good non-con SOS. It might not have had the marquee games you might want, but it set them up well for a tournament bid and a good seed after starting the year with a young team. The only downside to it was that they didn't execute it properly; they should have beat Auburn and then the plan for the non-con would have worked perfectly.

This year, they are in a good exempt tournament, Auburn will be a solid-to-good home opponent, and Michigan will be a good road opponent. Mizzou should have at least been okay in year two of the series, but that fell through with personnel losses.

[X-band '01]

If you win in an exempt tournament, it will take care of itself. If Xavier beats Alabama, then they're pretty much assured of playing Wichita State in the semis and either Notre Dame/Dayton/Iowa in the 3rd game. Lose to Alabama and potentially USC and then you're assured of playing a game with Monmouth. Not good.

BTW, Michigan is on the road (as is Wake Forest).

[XUFan09]

I actually forgot about Wake. They'll be a question mark this year, though, with the new coach. Maybe he won't be an idiot who thinks Wake is "too good" to play Xavier in the long run.

[ArizonaXUGrad]

Guys, how many rivalry games do we need each year? If we can find a similarly ranked team and play a home/home I am fine with that. I don't think this team need play in another OOC rivalry game.


Yeah I would like to start playing UD again. Every fan is different but I have always disliked UC wayyy more than UD. And UD as an RPI drag is kind of a strange thing to say. Some years maybe but not the last couple. I always liked the UD XU rivalry and think it is a shame it isnt continuing.

[X-band '01]

I actually forgot about Wake. They'll be a question mark this year, though, with the new coach. Maybe he won't be an idiot who thinks Wake is "too good" to play Xavier in the long run.

I'd be pleasantly surprised if Wake were to be competitive in the ACC this year. The top tier is set with Duke, UVA and Carolina and there's another tier of Notre Dame, Louisville, NC State and Miami who are also expected to compete for NCAA bids.

As for the Wake-Xavier series, this is year 5 of the series where they alternate home-and-home with an off year following the game at Xavier (3-year cycle of @ Wake, @ XU, do not play).

[XUFan09]

Guys, how many rivalry games do we need each year? If we can find a similarly ranked team and play a home/home I am fine with that. I don't think this team need play in another OOC rivalry game.
That's always a big "if.". Like I said before, scheduling is a complex process that doesn't always work out nicely.

Also, it's not like the schedule has rivalries left and right. We have UC in the non-conference schedule and Butler in the conference schedule. That's just two. Even then, the intensity of the Butler rivalry varies significantly from person to person, with some hating them but others viewing them as just a conference opponent with a longer history.

[XUFan09]

I'd be pleasantly surprised if Wake were to be competitive in the ACC this year. The top tier is set with Duke, UVA and Carolina and there's another tier of Notre Dame, Louisville, NC State and Miami who are also expected to compete for NCAA bids.

As for the Wake-Xavier series, this is year 5 of the series where they alternate home-and-home with an off year following the game at Xavier (3-year cycle of @ Wake, @ XU, do not play).
Yeah, I don't have high expectations either. I just hope they are respectable this year, solidly within the top 100 of the RPI.

I haven't been paying attention to them, other than knowing that Danny Manning did a good job at Tulsa, so I don't know whether that is realistic.

[D-West & PO-Z]

Guys, how many rivalry games do we need each year? If we can find a similarly ranked team and play a home/home I am fine with that. I don't think this team need play in another OOC rivalry game.

We have one. UC. You could argue 2 and say Butler I guess but that doesnt come close to UD. I get it XU fans like to shit on UD and act like they arent worth XU's time but that just doesnt jive with the rest of the OOC schedule when we are playing Alabama, Wake, Auburn, etc. UD is a better pbasketball program than any of those 3 currently.

If we dont play UD again I am fine but it gets a little old to see poster's argue it is because it would hurt us to play them when that is just blatantly false. If you dont want to play them because you think their fans are douches fine but it doesnt make much sense to me.

[LA Muskie]

I think we should play UD. The argument that there's "nothing to gain" by playing them is simply the converse of "there's too much to lose." Which is a piss-poor reason to not play a single game in a 30+ game season. And I don't believe for a second that the staff is worried about losing to them.

There may be other reasons not to play them (if I were Mack I certainly wouldn't want to). And I'm going to assume those are the real reasons we don't. And I'm fine if that's the case. But all things considered, I'd still rather have a local rivalry than an equivalent RPI series that gets little (if any) national--much less local--attention.

[D-West & PO-Z]

I think we should play UD. The argument that there's "nothing to gain" by playing them is simply the converse of "there's too much to lose." Which is a piss-poor reason to not play a single game in a 30+ game season. And I don't believe for a second that the staff is worried about losing to them.

There may be other reasons not to play them (if I were Mack I certainly wouldn't want to). And I'm going to assume those are the real reasons we don't. And I'm fine if that's the case. But all things considered, I'd still rather have a local rivalry than an equivalent RPI series that gets little (if any) national--much less local--attention.

Yeah that is the other thing too, I get that pretty much every game of ours now if nationally televised, but there is interest in UD/XU as evidence it used to be on ESPN every year when we werent always nationally televised. Give me XU vs UD, a rivalry game that will garner some national attention and be a game fans really care about vs XU vs fill in the blank team with similar resume.

[MADXSTER]

There was an article by a Dayton writer that talked about sitting near Christy Mack the last time XU played at UD. He said the comments made towards Christy were like none he had ever witnessed before(I'm paraphrasing). Both Chris and Christy never brought it up in the media and the writer gave kudos to the two and said they were 1st class about the situation.

Needless to say, Mack will never play at Dayton again. #SHARPIE

[paulxu]

http://www.daytondailynews.com/news/sports/college-basketball/verbal-abuse-of-macks-worse-than-first-thought/nWXc6/

[bobbiemcgee]

Yep. We have such an easy time booking top 35 games in the OOC that last year we played 0.

No need. We played them all in conference.

[kyxu]

http://www.daytondailynews.com/news/sports/college-basketball/verbal-abuse-of-macks-worse-than-first-thought/nWXc6/

I remember this article. Depending on your sensibilities, check out the comments section (or don't). Some Dayton-ites actually try to spin it as Christi's fault that she was treated so badly.

[XUFan09]

I remember this article. Depending on your sensibilities, check out the comments section (or don't). Some Dayton-ites actually try to spin it as Christi's fault that she was treated so badly.
They are the same type of people who would blame a woman for getting raped.

Then there are the ones who argue that trash talk is just something basketball players and ex-basketball players have to deal with, which in itself is true. As the author pointed out, though, she would have been used to everyday verbal abuse from fans, going back to her playing days, and that claim just ignores the author's explicit thesis that what she dealt with was extraordinarily bad. Combine that with the betrayal she had to feel with it coming from her beloved alma mater, and that had to be an awful experience.

[Masterofreality]

Probably neither. Two years ago, the team was adjusting to the Big East, which also meant they suddenly had two fewer games to work with in the non-con. This past season, they put together a really good non-con SOS. It might not have had the marquee games you might want, but it set them up well for a tournament bid and a good seed after starting the year with a young team. The only downside to it was that they didn't execute it properly; they should have beat Auburn and then the plan for the non-con would have worked perfectly.

This year, they are in a good exempt tournament, Auburn will be a solid-to-good home opponent, and Michigan will be a good road opponent. Mizzou should have at least been okay in year two of the series, but that fell through with personnel losses.

This.

As to dayton, whatever. Probably time to let that rivalry "cool" anyway. The Cryers worry way more about us than we do about them.

[TUclutch]

I heard it was even worse when she returned to be inducted to their HOF. I heard Dayton "fans" were throwing stuff at their private box and hurling insults left and right.

[Olsingledigit]

I heard it was even worse when she returned to be inducted to their HOF. I heard Dayton "fans" were throwing stuff at their private box and hurling insults left and right.

I heard the same and that is shameful however you look at it.

[TUclutch]

I heard the same and that is shameful however you look at it.

Yes. If true I wouldve left the game right then and there and made them induct me to the HOF without me in attendance.

[Snipe]

That is sad stuff. I did want to play Dayton, but not so much after reading that crap.

Melon Humpers

[xubrew]

I've been out of the country for three weeks, and a thread about Dayton is still on the top of the board. I think this verifies the whole theory of them being a huge game of interest.

[paulxu]

If I was Chris Mack, and I had anything to do with scheduling, and if 1/2 of those things about the treatment of my wife (a HOF Dayton player) were true...we wouldn't be playing Dayton while I was coaching at X.

[xubrew]

If I was Chris Mack, and I had anything to do with scheduling, and if 1/2 of those things about the treatment of my wife (a HOF Dayton player) were true...we wouldn't be playing Dayton while I was coaching at X.

Well, most of it isn't true, and I think most people here know that. Some of the students were yelling at her at one of the games, but that's really the extent of it. No one hurled insults at her or threw things at their private box. It's ridiculous to think they would even know what box they were in, and even if they did know I doubt they'd trash one of the boxes that UD's own athletic dept occupies and uses. People who say that are either making it up, or they're getting their information from someone that's making it up. I get not liking UD fans, but if you don't like what they say and do, then at least stick to criticizing them for the things they actually say and do. They did no such thing at her HOF induction. I heard they actually gave her a very long and loud standing ovation.

I understand people don't like hostile environments. I'm just not one of those people. I think they're great. Granted, I would never have my family there and get why that would be upsetting, but all and all, it's kind of fun (I don't know if that's the right word, but it's the best I can think of). A few weeks ago I was watching a soccer practice from a lower division Italian team. They were actually practicing what it's like to get beer thrown at them, and how they were going to react by drinking it and spraying themselves right in front of the other team's fans. I thought it was awesome. I also knew that you don't see anything like that in college athletics because now everyone gets too upset and fewer people like being in the furnace. It didn't used to be that way, though. Rivalries used to be bigger and more heated. Now, we avoid them because it's easier to convince ourselves that it just isn't worth it because there is nothing to gain. UD fans aren't that bad. I've been there, and it's at best average in regards to the intensity/abuse. I've never seen a brawl in the stands at either UD Arena or the Cintas Center for the XU v UD game. If you think they're really bad then chances are you haven't been to very many places where the fans actually are apeshit crazy. If you've ever been to Azteca or Costa Rica for the World Cup Qualifiers, it makes UD Arena seem like the YMCA.

But, I get it. I just like games like that for the same reasons other people don't. They're intense.

[bobbiemcgee]

Apparently, Tom Archdeacon is a liar. I see no reason to play them. Our plate is full with "Quality" Opponents.

[xubrew]

Apparently, Tom Archdeacon is a liar. I see no reason to play them. Our plate is full with "Quality" Opponents.

He wrote that the students called her a bitch at one of the games and yelled other things of a gross sexual nature, and I'm sure he's not lying. He didn't write about it being worse at the HOF induction, nor did he write that they threw things at their private box or hurled insults that were even more profane. He didn't write about this for the same reason no one else did. It didn't happen. If he did, then post the article and I'll admit that I was wrong. I admittedly don't follow him all that closely.

I'm glad you're not my financial advisor. You'd probably feel that I had enough money and enough quality investments already and therefore don't have any reason to try and make any more.

[X-man]

I've been out of the country for three weeks, and a thread about Dayton is still on the top of the board. I think this verifies the whole theory of them being a huge game of interest.

No, it verifies the fact that any thread about the Orlando tournament is likely to include posts about UD because they are also in the tournament, and there are a lot of people other than you who have no interest in seeing an XU-UD game as part of XU's regular nonconference schedule.

[xubrew]

No, it verifies the fact that any thread about the Orlando tournament is likely to include posts about UD because they are also in the tournament, and there are a lot of people other than you who have no interest in seeing an XU-UD game as part of XU's regular nonconference schedule.

Oh yeah. I mean, clearly the vast majority of posts in this thread are about the other six teams in the tournament. The high level of interest in discussing the disinterest in Dayton kind of proves the point in the converse.

[paulxu]

I like intense rivalries. Since I started in Schmidt, I'm pretty sure I've seen my share of intensity.
The Gardens in the 60's for the Crosstown were a level of intensity I've rarely seen matched.
I have zero problem with students/fans obnoxious behavior toward the team/other fans. Part of the game.

If the article in the DDN was correct, I have a real problem. If you can't treat your own HOF player any better, and she's the coach's wife...that's over the line. And it apparently was more than one or two drunken former students. If I'm Chris Mack, they just aren't on the schedule.
Period.

[Milhouse]

I don't miss playing at UD arena. It was a hostile environment. But so was Cintas. Who among us didn't love the Jimmy Carter Classic?

[XUFan09]

To go along with what Brew is saying, I've never heard anything about the HOF induction being bad. In fact, I've heard the opposite, that it stands out for being so much better than the last time at UD.

[XUFan09]

Oh yeah. I mean, clearly the vast majority of posts in this thread are about the other six teams in the tournament. The high level of interest in discussing the disinterest in Dayton kind of proves the point in the converse.
Lol yeah, it's pretty disingenuous to claim that this thread isn't mostly about Dayton, despite the name.

[xubrew]

I like intense rivalries. Since I started in Schmidt, I'm pretty sure I've seen my share of intensity.
The Gardens in the 60's for the Crosstown were a level of intensity I've rarely seen matched.
I have zero problem with students/fans obnoxious behavior toward the team/other fans. Part of the game.

If the article in the DDN was correct, I have a real problem. If you can't treat your own HOF player any better, and she's the coach's wife...that's over the line. And it apparently was more than one or two drunken former students. If I'm Chris Mack, they just aren't on the schedule.
Period.

This is where I'm getting lost. What article are you talking about?? In my opinion, shitty event management is a very legitimate reason to not play a team home and home. It's personally one of the few reasons I'd be against doing it. But, what exactly happened??

I'm looking at the article you linked earlier in the thread. Perhaps there is another one that I'm missing.


[/Yes, just as I wrote, somebody from the UD student section was yelling “Christi Hester is a b——!”

But more than one source in the crowd has told me that as nasty as that was, it was nothing compared to the way the Xavier coach was repeatedly taunted about his wife and explicit sex acts.

Christi was similarly targeted.

I’ve also been told that besides the two former students who were identified as culprits and were finally thrown out of the arena, someone else in the student section may have been involved


Okay, so in addition to the two former students, there MAY have been someone else. So, it was more than just two drunken students. It was THREE drunken students.

I'm not saying that's okay. I'm not saying I don't understand being upset. But, the incident seems to be that she was being verbally abused, and it took security far too long to get the guys out that were doing it, and on top of that they missed one of them. It wasn't the whole student section. It wasn't the whole arena. It wasn't "even worse" at her HOF induction, and people weren't throwing things at their box.

So, in a nutshell, I think what happened was wrong, but I also think people here are making things up so it will sound even worse. If I'm wrong, then show me where that's documented and I'll actually change my mind. If the crowd really was that out of control the first time, and even more out of control the second time, and UD's event management made no attempt to curb it, then yeah, going there is a bad idea. But, I don't think that's what happened at all.

[MuskieXU]

It sounds like people know the gist of what happened and not much more. I think we can trust Coach Mack and the administration to do whats best for the team and program. We had a horrible situation at the crosstown shootout and were able to work through it and get the game back on the schedule, presumably because the administration deemed the game important enough to do so. The fact that we have not made it a priority to get Dayton back on the schedule shows that either the people in charge dont see it as a beneficial game or the acts committed by Dayton fans were more egregious than we know. Either way I trust those who have all the facts to make those decisions.

[GoMuskies]

Alabama
Wichita State
Notre Dame

3-0, top 10

[XUFan09]

Alabama
Wichita State
Notre Dame

3-0, top 10
Well said.

[Snipe]

I like the way you think.

[xubrew]

Alabama
Wichita State
Notre Dame

3-0, top 10

Yunno, we are allowed to play a fourth game.

[X-band '01]

I don't think Iowa is interested.

[waggy]

Every once in a while Xband comes out left field with a zinger.

[xubrew]

I don't think Iowa is interested.

Iowa is better than no one, but it looks like we're going with no one.

[XUFan09]

Iowa is better than no one, but it looks like we're going with no one.
It would be cool to schedule a TBD fourth game, with the opponent determined by who didn't end up playing one another. The reason that doesn't often happen, though, could be simple: The coaches want to keep the non-conference schedule a little lighter on total games especially with how packed the conference schedule is.

[XMuskieFTW]

Usually with a 4th game, don't power conference teams just schedule a lower conference/caliber team in the tourney at home? There aren't many lower conference teams in this so really our only realistic options are Monmouth or Dayton at home.

[XUFan09]

Usually with a 4th game, don't power conference teams just schedule a lower conference/caliber team in the tourney at home? There aren't many lower conference teams in this so really our only realistic options are Monmouth or Dayton at home.
Usually they schedule a non-bracketed team, who plays multiple teams from the bracket. For example, Abilene Christian was technically part of that tournament. They just weren't in the bracket, which makes it easier.

You could play teams who are in the bracket. I THINK you just can't play the same team twice, so in that scenario, you would have to wait until after the bracket is finished to determine your opponent. That can be tricky, as you don't know until a couple days before where you are traveling. For example, Xavier could just swing up to Notre Dame for a game...or they could fly out to USC.

[xubrew]

There's no rule against playing the same team twice. Happens all the time. Charlotte and Miami played twice last year in back to back games that were just two days apart. The only rules are that the teams must all be from different conferences, you can play up to four games, and all the games must take place within fourteen days. You don't even need to bracket it. Five teams could play a round robin, and that would classify as an exempt tournament.

What the Maui does, and what some others do, is that they'll have eight bracketed teams and four unbracketed teams that are generally from weak conferences. Each of the four non bracketed teams plays two buy games, and then they play in a tournament of four against each other (or just play two more games). That way all twelve teams get four games.

[XUFan09]

Like I said, though, the coaching staff just might not want that many games, especially in the case of this tournament when the game would have to be just before or just after Thanksgiving Break. Whether the opponent is Abilene Christian or Notre Dame, the preparation and time expense is still the same.

[bobbiemcgee]

He wrote that the students called her a bitch at one of the games and yelled other things of a gross sexual nature, and I'm sure he's not lying.
"Nuff' for me.

[xubrew]

"Nuff' for me.

Maybe so, but you're missing the point. If what happened is enough, then why are people making up things that didn't happen?? I never disagreed with what the article said. I disagreed with the people who made up a bunch of additional nonsense.

[X-band '01]

Like I said, though, the coaching staff just might not want that many games, especially in the case of this tournament when the game would have to be just before or just after Thanksgiving Break. Whether the opponent is Abilene Christian or Notre Dame, the preparation and time expense is still the same.

NKU is scheduled 3 days before the Advocare Invitational, so it can't be before Thanksgiving. There is a week of rest after the tournament, and there will definitely not be any games scheduled on exam week between UC and Auburn. The Skip Prosser Classic is scheduled on Tuesday Dec. 22 (per Wake's website).

Another rumor going about the interwebs is that the Big East opening marathon will be on Wednesday, December 30 this year to avoid a conflict with the college football playoff on New Year's Eve.

In short, if Xavier were to schedule another game, it would almost have to be during one of the bye weeks in Big East play. It's not easy to schedule OOC games during that time and frankly not worth the hassle if it's somebody besides UC.

[XUFan09]

In short, if Xavier were to schedule another game, it would almost have to be during one of the bye weeks in Big East play. It's not easy to schedule OOC games during that time and frankly not worth the hassle if it's somebody besides UC.

The game would have to be within 14 days of the exempt tournament. That range doesn't come close to conference play. Where it would have to happen is during that week of rest after the tournament, but then you no longer have a week of rest.

[paulxu]

Maybe so, but you're missing the point. If what happened is enough, then why are people making up things that didn't happen?? I never disagreed with what the article said. I disagreed with the people who made up a bunch of additional nonsense.

I've never (I don't think) noted more than the original article. I don't know if there's truth to any of the other stories, but wouldn't dismiss them out of hand.
But what happened would be enough for me (if I was Mack) not to want them on the schedule (as I noted earlier). As you pointed out, you like the raucous soccer games, but wouldn't take your family. Maybe Mack doesn't want to take his family to that kind of game. Who knows.

[paulxu]

Also...let's just start a H/H with ND to fill out the schedule.

[X-band '01]

It would also be a great series, but Notre Dame has never been known for tough schedules (at least for men's basketball).

[xubrew]

I've never (I don't think) noted more than the original article. I don't know if there's truth to any of the other stories, but wouldn't dismiss them out of hand.
But what happened would be enough for me (if I was Mack) not to want them on the schedule (as I noted earlier). As you pointed out, you like the raucous soccer games, but wouldn't take your family. Maybe Mack doesn't want to take his family to that kind of game. Who knows.

I wasn't talking about anything you said when I talked about how people were making things up.

What happened was bad, but I also can't help but think that if there are 12,000 people at a game, and 11,997 of them aren't acting like complete assholes, then you're actually doing pretty good. There is a saying that haters are gonna hate. Well, dicks are also gonna dick, and sporting events are dickhead magnets. It's not unique to UD. At most soccer games, the players' and coaches' families are separated from the rest of the crowd. If they weren't, it would be a million times worse than UD. I wouldn't want my family there because of the verbal abuse from the dickheads that are attracted to sporting events, but also for the same reason I wouldn't bring my family to work no matter what I did for a living. It's too damned distracting. As a fan, yeah, I don't think I'd want my family either, especially not my kids. It's just easier to have fun at a place like this without them (note the gates and the police. Again, UD Arena isn't that bad. It's not on the same planet. I get that it's not for everyone, and it appears to be for very few Xavier fans seeing as how much everyone complains about going there, but from my perspective it's one of the places that would be the most fun to play at. There's nothing wrong with a little intensity. If anything, that's something that college basketball needs a lot more of)....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a93KZD7TPtc


Also...let's just start a H/H with ND to fill out the schedule.

I'm in favor!

[TUclutch]

Well, most of it isn't true, and I think most people here know that. Some of the students were yelling at her at one of the games, but that's really the extent of it. No one hurled insults at her or threw things at their private box. It's ridiculous to think they would even know what box they were in, and even if they did know I doubt they'd trash one of the boxes that UD's own athletic dept occupies and uses. People who say that are either making it up, or they're getting their information from someone that's making it up. I get not liking UD fans, but if you don't like what they say and do, then at least stick to criticizing them for the things they actually say and do. They did no such thing at her HOF induction. I heard they actually gave her a very long and loud standing ovation.

I understand people don't like hostile environments. I'm just not one of those people. I think they're great. Granted, I would never have my family there and get why that would be upsetting, but all and all, it's kind of fun (I don't know if that's the right word, but it's the best I can think of). A few weeks ago I was watching a soccer practice from a lower division Italian team. They were actually practicing what it's like to get beer thrown at them, and how they were going to react by drinking it and spraying themselves right in front of the other team's fans. I thought it was awesome. I also knew that you don't see anything like that in college athletics because now everyone gets too upset and fewer people like being in the furnace. It didn't used to be that way, though. Rivalries used to be bigger and more heated. Now, we avoid them because it's easier to convince ourselves that it just isn't worth it because there is nothing to gain. UD fans aren't that bad. I've been there, and it's at best average in regards to the intensity/abuse. I've never seen a brawl in the stands at either UD Arena or the Cintas Center for the XU v UD game. If you think they're really bad then chances are you haven't been to very many places where the fans actually are apeshit crazy. If you've ever been to Azteca or Costa Rica for the World Cup Qualifiers, it makes UD Arena seem like the YMCA.

But, I get it. I just like games like that for the same reasons other people don't. They're intense.

Not making it up. Know several people who saw it first hand. The people I know are Dayton fans and students. The Macks were treated terribly. I would bet money XU doesn't play Dayton(outside of tourneys like this) for a while. Wouldn't be surprised if they don't play again while Mack is at Xavier. I have nothing against that either. Dayton doesn't bring anything to the table.

[xubrew]

Not making it up. Know several people who saw it first hand. The people I know are Dayton fans and students. The Macks were treated terribly. I would bet money XU doesn't play Dayton(outside of tourneys like this) for a while. Wouldn't be surprised if they don't play again while Mack is at Xavier. I have nothing against that either. Dayton doesn't bring anything to the table.

So, the newspapers that wrote at least two articles about how three drunken students were harassing them suddenly opted not to say a word about happened the second time even thought it was worse?? Yeah, that's believable. Were the students hurling things all the way across the entire length of the court and lower bowl into their box?? I'm really sorry I missed that because that's quite a feat. We need to recruit them because the people we have doing the stupid ball toss thing would have had trouble hitting their box. I'm sure that would have been all over the news, and it wasn't. In reality, I don't think anyone even realized they were there, and even if they did, they probably didn't know exactly where they were.

If that's true then either Chris Mack and Xavier are completely irrelevant because no one in the media bothered to mention something like that, or Dayton is so relevant that no one in the media wanted to make them look bad. If Dayton is that relevant, then they actually bring quite a bit to the table.

[xudash]

So, the newspapers that wrote at least two articles about how three drunken students were harassing them suddenly opted not to say a word about happened the second time even thought it was worse?? Yeah, that's believable. Were the students hurling things all the way across the entire length of the court and lower bowl into their box?? I'm really sorry I missed that because that's quite a feat. We need to recruit them because the people we have doing the stupid ball toss thing would have had trouble hitting their box. I'm sure that would have been all over the news, and it wasn't. In reality, I don't think anyone even realized they were there, and even if they did, they probably didn't know exactly where they were.

If that's true then either Chris Mack and Xavier are completely irrelevant because no one in the media bothered to mention something like that, or Dayton is so relevant that no one in the media wanted to make them look bad. If Dayton is that relevant, then they actually bring quite a bit to the table.


Brew, your obsession with UD may have reached a new altitude. Are you beginning to find it ironical that you earlier mentioned how people were mostly discussing UD in this thread and you now appear to be the one that is keeping all that going? Your last paragraph is a doozy.

UD is not relevant to Xavier. There are reasons for that that have nothing to do with the Mack's. Take it or leave it, but no amount of typing here is going to change that. Anything is possible down the road, but Xavier has ZERO interest in playing Dayton presently. That's zero with an 0.

[xubrew]

Disagreeing with someone who talks about how the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor doesn't make you obsessed with Germany. It doesn't even mean you like Germany. It just means you're disputing a false claim that someone is making about them.

I do find it ironical that people say there are reasons we don't play them, but then give reasons that are every bit as ridiculous as the Germans bombing Pearl Harbor. If there are actual reasons, then why are people making things up??

[bobbiemcgee]

Brew, your obsession with UD may have reached a new altitude. Are you beginning to find it ironical that you earlier mentioned how people were mostly discussing UD in this thread and you now appear to be the one that is keeping all that going? Your last paragraph is a doozy.

UD is not relevant to Xavier. There are reasons for that that have nothing to do with the Mack's. Take it or leave it, but no amount of typing here is going to change that. Anything is possible down the road, but Xavier has ZERO interest in playing Dayton presently. That's zero with an 0.

Couldn't agree more. No interest or need to schedule them. VD is dead to me. Hope this thread gets back on topic or hits the snooze button.

[xudash]

Disagreeing with someone who talks about how the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor doesn't make you obsessed with Germany. It doesn't even mean you like Germany. It just means you're disputing a false claim that someone is making about them.

I do find it ironical that people say there are reasons we don't play them, but then give reasons that are every bit as ridiculous as the Germans bombing Pearl Harbor. If there are actual reasons, then why are people making things up??

How you spend your time is your business. Perhaps the notion of obsession originates from the amount of time and type you're putting into the Germans.

UD is irrelevant to Xavier. Christy Mack was mistreated at UD and to a material degree. And Xavier has decided that UD is firmly in its rear view mirror.

Xavier will go to Orlando focused on winning that tournament.

[xubrew]

How you spend your time is your business. Perhaps the notion of obsession originates from the amount of time and type you're putting into the Germans.

UD is irrelevant to Xavier. Christy Mack was mistreated at UD and to a material degree. And Xavier has decided that UD is firmly in its rear view mirror.

Xavier will go to Orlando focused on winning that tournament.

Over the past week, I have exactly one more post in this thread about UD than I have posts in the thread about Cincinnati FC. I guess I'm borderline obsessed with that as well. I have other posts in the thread, but they're not about Dayton. If in that thread, people were making absurd comments about how the team should never play in the US Open Cup because they have everything to lose and nothing to gain, or how they'll probably end up joining Liga MX if the MLS doesn't want them, or anything that is utterly ridiculous, I'd probably have more posts in that thread pointing out how ridiculous those comments are.

Everything I've said in this thread has been in response to someone else. The posts about how we could play a fourth game if we wanted to, and how the rules work for an exempt tournament, or possibly playing another team, have basically been ignored. All anyone is reacting to is what I say about Dayton, or to put it more accurately, what I say about how I think what others are saying about Dayton is complete nonsense.

There is no other team in the country that people would be so against playing if that team had made the NCAA Tournament and been beyond the Round of 64 two years in a row. People weren't anywhere close to being this adamant about not playing Miami OH. When playing Iowa or Notre Dame was brought up, which we could do and still be within the rules, no one said anything either for or against it. But, bring up Dayton, and everyone can't wait to talk about how uninterested we are in them. Don't act like our fans don't care about them, or that I'm the only person that continues to bring it up. If we truly didn't care about them one way or another, there is no way anyone here would be against playing them because they have been beyond the round of 64 two years in a row, and will likely be back in the NCAAs again this year.

[XUFan09]

Yeah, people's claims that they don't care about Dayton are a good example of "one doth protest too much." And the assertions that there is nothing to gain from playing an RPI 25-75 team are frankly silly.

I can see possible institution-wide motivations by the administration for not playing them. I can see possible personal reasons for why Mack doesn't want to play them. That's legitimate. Claiming basketball reasons for not playing them though is simply fan-speak.

[muskiefan82]

I have no basketball reasons for hating Dayton, just my own personal and ridiculous bias as a fan. I Hate UD. They are a decent team, but if they never set foot in the Cintas again, I will survive and be okay with it. I would much rather play ANY OTHER TEAM than Dayton. Sure, that doesn't make RPI sense, money sense (in terms of travel cost), or even regional rivalry sense, but I don't care. I hate UD and if X never plays them again then so be it. I will be totally okay with it. I can't make a basketball argument for it - they are a team that makes sense on the schedule most years - but I still hate that damn team up the road and that's just the way it is for me. That is all. Rant concluded.

[bobbiemcgee]

Yeah, people's claims that they don't care about Dayton

I don't care about Vd. Plenty of rpi 25-75 teams out there. 49 would be my guess. we see a bunch of them in conference.

[xubrew]

I don't care about Vd. Plenty of rpi 25-75 teams out there. 49 would be my guess. we see a bunch of them in conference.

This is, what, the third time you've felt the need to say you don't care about Dayton?? Do you care or not care about Alabama, Iowa or Notre Dame?? If not, then why haven't you mentioned three or four times as to why you don't care about them??

No one cares about Alabama, which is why no one is talking about them. If I asked what everyone's opinion was on Alabama, most wouldn't even know enough about them to even have an opinion. Yet, with Dayton, it's a lightning rod. A lightning rod of not caring, of course.

[XUFan09]

I don't care about Vd. Plenty of rpi 25-75 teams out there. 49 would be my guess. we see a bunch of them in conference.
Regardless of the conference, playing good teams in the non-conference still matters. Also, you and some others make it sound like it is easy to schedule RPI 25-75 teams. Let's work this through:

1) Eliminate the programs who aren't regularly and reliably in the RPI 25 to 75 range. That's a majority of them.
2) Contact the remaining schools. A lot of them won't even pick up the phone for Xavier for whatever reason. Others will answer but end up saying they aren't interested. A lot will have too many commitments already.
3) Keep talking to the remainder, only to discover that some of them have to opt out because the series doesn't work for them at that time. They might get back to you in another year. Maybe.
4) Now you're in more serious conversations with a tiny fraction of that group you started with, but when you get down to scheduling, things started going awry. You can't find a specific date, or maybe there are a couple possible choices but they don't jive well with the other games on one team's schedule.

Suddenly, you don't have anyone to schedule who can reliably fall in that RPI 25-75 range. You and others keep acting like it's easy to schedule that type of opponent. It isn't.

So, we're back to zero good basketball reasons. Oh, and if you didn't care about UD, you wouldn't call them by the derogatory (and funny) nickname "Vd." You would just call them "UD" or "Dayton" because, you know, you don't care. There's no motivation to mock someone or something you don't care about.

[XUFan09]

I have no basketball reasons for hating Dayton, just my own personal and ridiculous bias as a fan. I Hate UD. They are a decent team, but if they never set foot in the Cintas again, I will survive and be okay with it. I would much rather play ANY OTHER TEAM than Dayton. Sure, that doesn't make RPI sense, money sense (in terms of travel cost), or even regional rivalry sense, but I don't care. I hate UD and if X never plays them again then so be it. I will be totally okay with it. I can't make a basketball argument for it - they are a team that makes sense on the schedule most years - but I still hate that damn team up the road and that's just the way it is for me. That is all. Rant concluded.
I love this.

[paulxu]

With the incredible challenge of finding OOC opponents not named Dayton, it's no wonder we had such a crappy SOS last year.

[bobbiemcgee]

This is, what, the third time you've felt the need to say you don't care about Dayton?? Do you care or not care about Alabama, Iowa or Notre Dame?? If not, then why haven't you mentioned three or four times as to why you don't care about them??

No one cares about Alabama, which is why no one is talking about them. If I asked what everyone's opinion was on Alabama, most wouldn't even know enough about them to even have an opinion. Yet, with Dayton, it's a lightning rod. A lightning rod of not caring, of course.


This is what, the 50th time you think we should play them. Just don't happen to agree. I like the Tide, Hawkeyes (hope they beat VD) and the Irish. Would like a h/h with any of them.

[xubrew]

This is what, the 50th time you think we should play them. Just don't happen to agree. I like the Tide, Hawkeyes (hope they beat VD) and the Irish. Would like a h/h with any of them.

Yeah, and it would be pretty absurd if I tried to act like I didn't care about them like so many other people are doing. It's one thing to not want to play them, but it's absurd to say that it's because of your indifferent feelings when you couldn't possibly be any less indifferent. Unlike you, I actually like to play against the teams I don't like. It's a lot more fun than playing a team that you actually don't care about.

[bobbiemcgee]

Indifferent? You must have me confused with another poster:

http://esrati.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/NO-NEW-UD-LOGO.jpg

[xubrew]

Indifferent? You must have me confused with another poster:

http://esrati.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/NO-NEW-UD-LOGO.jpg

Then why the hell do you keep insisting that you don't care? That's pretty funny. It's a shame there's no game to go along with it. I love shit talking, but also feel that if you shot talk a team that you also refuse to play, then you kinda come out looking like a loser. The best teams to play, hands down, are tournament caliber teams that you hate but are able to beat. That's Dayton all day long. Yet, no one wants to play them. They'd literally rather play no one and have one less game on the schedule.

[muskiefan82]

They'd literally rather play no one and have one less game on the schedule.

That's me. Illogical as hell, but I hate UD that much. F em., Really, F em.

[xubrew]

Alabama and Dayton are playing during the ESPN Tip Off Marathon, which is within two weeks of the end of the now named Advocare Classic, which means they can count it as a fourth exempt game, which I'm assuming they will do. USC and Monmouth are also playing. If we want a fourth game, that leaves Notre Dame, Wichita State or Iowa.

[X-band '01]

Iowa does have an extra game on their schedule but they don't have any open dates that would work with Xavier's schedule.

Wichita State would be out since they're on Xavier's half of the bracket. Notre Dame would be the only viable option left, but I doubt they have any interest in playing Xavier.

[JTG]

Iowa does have an extra game on their schedule but they don't have any open dates that would work with Xavier's schedule.

Wichita State would be out since they're on Xavier's half of the bracket. Notre Dame would be the only viable option left, but I doubt they have any interest in playing Xavier.

Still it would be a hellava lot more fun than playing UD.

[Section 200]

Alabama and Dayton are playing during the ESPN Tip Off Marathon, which is within two weeks of the end of the now named Advocare Classic, which means they can count it as a fourth exempt game, which I'm assuming they will do. USC and Monmouth are also playing. If we want a fourth game, that leaves Notre Dame, Wichita State or Iowa.

Dayton is playing on a Tuesday at 1pm. What a big FU to the season ticket holders - a Tuesday afternoon in early November. Might work if your fan base is all over 65 or under 21. We had a game on New Years Eve around lunch time 2 years ago - that wasn't great, but at least the next day was a holiday. Who wants to burn vacation time on a Tuesday in early November??

[SM#24]

Who wants to burn vacation time on a Tuesday in early November??
I would for an X game

[GoMuskies]

Dayton is playing on a Tuesday at 1pm. What a big FU to the season ticket holders - a Tuesday afternoon in early November. Might work if your fan base is all over 65 or under 21. We had a game on New Years Eve around lunch time 2 years ago - that wasn't great, but at least the next day was a holiday. Who wants to burn vacation time on a Tuesday in early November??

Didn't Xavier host Butler at about 3pm a few years back in that event? Seems like we managed to have a big crowd and kick Butler's ass despite having a terrible team.

[X-band '01]

Dayton is playing on a Tuesday at 1pm. What a big FU to the season ticket holders - a Tuesday afternoon in early November. Might work if your fan base is all over 65 or under 21. We had a game on New Years Eve around lunch time 2 years ago - that wasn't great, but at least the next day was a holiday. Who wants to burn vacation time on a Tuesday in early November??

What's the problem, then? Sounds like a good idea for the League of Sweater Vests.


Didn't Xavier host Butler at about 3pm a few years back in that event? Seems like we managed to have a big crowd and kick Butler's ass despite having a terrible team.

It was a 4 PM tip. That's still better than getting the 10 AM slot like Valpo and URI got this season.

[xubrew]

Dayton is playing on a Tuesday at 1pm. What a big FU to the season ticket holders - a Tuesday afternoon in early November. Might work if your fan base is all over 65 or under 21. We had a game on New Years Eve around lunch time 2 years ago - that wasn't great, but at least the next day was a holiday. Who wants to burn vacation time on a Tuesday in early November??

I know you wouldn't think so, but apparently it's lots of people. I don't know why, but apparently people take the day off work just to watch the games on TV as the ratings for the Tip Off Marathon are always way above what the average ESPN game gets. I don't know why, but they are. The games themselves always seem to sell out or come close to it. This is actually a much lower interest game than what ESPN typically gets. Last year, they had three games where four of the six teams were ranked for the afternoon games, including Utah and San Diego State, which was sold out a month in advance.

[Cannonball]

Looking for advice. . . I'm heading to this tournament and intend to catch all three X games. At ticketmaster it seems the only seats for sale are general admission for ALL sessions costing $125 each. Since I'm only interested in XU games, can single game tickets can be purchased? Also, I presume it is unlikely to be sold out, so is it safe to buy the tickets at the gate?

[X-band '01]

I can't think of any preseason basketball tournament (outside of the preseason NIT in its heyday) that has ever sold out. You should be okay getting tickets at the gate if you just want single-session tickets.

[bobbiemcgee]

Once UD gets bounced, the whole place will be empty. Seriously, I've been to this tournament twice and it is a great venue but only maybe 4- 5k seats. I would call the box office and see if single games will be available.

[X-band '01]

Everyone plays 3 games; it's not an elimination tournament.

[XMuskieFTW]

There won't be any single game tickets. There has to be single session tickets, but it's likely that three single sessions may cost as much as the entire tournament pass.

[muskiefan82]

Probably true since it would be too hard to figure out who should be there for one game and who should be there for the others.

[redhawkmuskie]

Wichita State got bounced last night by Tulsa to the tune of 77-67. After viewing the highlights, it seemed they struggled with athleticism as a number of times Tulsa was able to throw uncontested alley-oops. I'm unsure how good Tulsa is but Wichita certainly looked beatable. Let's pray our Thanksgiving Tournament woes will cease and we can potentially compete for the title this year in Orlando. :flex:

[XUFan09]

Wichita State will rebound. Let's hope it isn't until the third-place game.

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[GoMuskies]

VanVleet is definitely not healthy. If he's still hurting next week, we'll be in pretty good shape. They're pretty ordinary without a healthy VanVleet.

[redhawkmuskie]

VanVleet is definitely not healthy. If he's still hurting next week, we'll be in pretty good shape. They're pretty ordinary without a healthy VanVleet.

It will be interesting to see how Mack plans for this game. Given that VanVleet isn't at 100% I think it would be effective to throw Remy on Baker all game and hope the defensive prowess we associate with him will promptly return in Orlando. Also will be interesting to see if Mack goes big or not, Wichita has size but not like us.

[bobbiemcgee]

VanVleet won't play and his backup may not either:

http://espn.go.com/ncb/story/_/id/14203849/fred-vanvleet-wichita-state-shockers-miss-advocare-invitational

Our odds improving for Otown.

[kyxu]

VanVleet is definitely not healthy. If he's still hurting next week, we'll be in pretty good shape. They're pretty ordinary without a healthy VanVleet.

I posted this in another thread, but Xavier has lost to way worse teams in these holiday tournaments than a VanVleet-less Wichita State.

Hoping this team finally bucks that trend, but will believe it when I see it.

[xu82]

I posted this in another thread, but Xavier has lost to way worse teams in these holiday tournaments than a VanVleet-less Wichita State.

Hoping this team finally bucks that trend, but will believe it when I see it.

I definitely hear you. I feel like this team has a different level of grittiness than some of those previous teams with bad tournament outings. At least, that's what I'm telling myself!

[nasdadjr]

As I read this thread I am struck by a big sense of come on people lets be real. Someone mentioned out ooc schedule has been weak since we got to the big east. That is 100% correct and rightfully so. We had a rash of horrible recruiting classes where a majority of our kids transferred out of the program. This led to teams with zero chemistry and they had to grow. You don't schedule hard in those situations you schedule to win. This years non Conference is a little better and I expect it will get tougher as Chris Mack gets back to what Xavier basketball was before the Mckenzie and Latham classes

[XUOHTX]

We had a rash of horrible recruiting classes where a majority of our kids transferred out of the program.

What?

[XUFan09]

What?
Yeah, that was odd. We had 2010 and then 2013 (and 2013 was going to be rough, no matter what). Plus, honestly, Randolph wasn't that bad, but he just got recruited over.

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[xudash]

Last year's team came together VERY LATE.

Last year's team struggled ON THE ROAD, AND MIGHTILY.

This year's team seems to be playing with decent flow already, and that probably is due to the talent and depth we have on the floor throughout each game. The defense has to get better, but that always seems to come with time as Mack coaches them up over the course of a season.

I loved last year's team for all they accomplished and for Matt and Dee, etc., but it was an "edge of your seat" proposition with them virtually every night.

The sheer amount of talent and athleticism on this team and their depth cause me to think, especially after the Michigan game, that we may be onto something special this year.

I expect a great result out of Orlando.

[Backyard Champ]

They did come together late last year.. Doesn't mean we lacked the talent. Not sure of the poor recruiting classes NASDADJR is talking about.

Personally I'd hope we continue to improve the OOC schedule. It's been very average recently.

[XUFan09]

They did come together late last year.. Doesn't mean we lacked the talent. Not sure of the poor recruiting classes NASDADJR is talking about.

Personally I'd hope we continue to improve the OOC schedule. It's been very average recently.
The 2010 class was rough and did affect Xavier. The 2013 and 2014 seasons did suffer from that not working out. But, to refer to a "rash" of bad recruiting classes is just a bad choice of words.

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