X #22 in final USA Today/Coaches poll [Archive]

paulxu

04-15-2015, 12:31 PM

I was looking for a place to post something, and this seems as good a thread as any rather than start one.
And this thread reminded me that I'm spoiled by our success, and allow it to ramp my expectations up every year.
And I still want to see us soon in a Final Four.

But, Christi Mack posted something from Xavier Nation last month:

christi mack retweeted
Xavier Nation @XUNation · Mar 15
With 13 tourney appearances since 2001 #Xavier has more than UCLA, UNC, Indiana, UC, Syracuse, UConn, OSU, Florida & Louisville! #XMarchesOn

And that got me thinking about just how fortunate we have been. I tried to do a little research and came up with this (may have missed some teams):

Since the beginning of this century, there have been 15 NCAA tournaments.
Kansas, Duke, MSU, Wisconsin and Gonzaga have been to all 15
Texas has been to 14
Xavier and Kentucky have been to 13

That's it, I think. That is damn elite company.

Here's the kicker. Think about what the expectations are with Smart leaving VCU, or the dips other schools have taken when changing coaches.
Most of the schools on that list above have had the same coach all that time, or one change.
Xavier has had 4 different coaches. That's some consistency.

xudash

04-15-2015, 12:37 PM

I was looking for a place to post something, and this seems as good a thread as any rather than start one.
And this thread reminded me that I'm spoiled by our success, and allow it to ramp my expectations up every year.
And I still want to see us soon in a Final Four.

But, Christi Mack posted something from Xavier Nation last month:

And that got me thinking about just how fortunate we have been. I tried to do a little research and came up with this (may have missed some teams):

Since the beginning of this century, there have been 15 NCAA tournaments.
Kansas, Duke, MSU, Wisconsin and Gonzaga have been to all 15
Texas has been to 14
Xavier and Duke have been to 13

That's it, I think. That is damn elite company.

Here's the kicker. Think about what the expectations are with Smart leaving VCU, or the dips other schools have taken when changing coaches.
Most of the schools on that list above have had the same coach all that time, or one change.
Xavier has had 4 different coaches. That's some consistency.

Excellent post Paul.

One thing: you have Duke listed twice above.

Otherwise, I absolutely believe its our turn to retain an excellent coach for a long time now.

xubrew

04-15-2015, 12:45 PM

That is some pretty awesome trivia!

I do think VCU will be okay. I think there are a lot of good coaches out there that would want that job, and I think VCU is good at identifying who those good coaches are. Having said that, Will Wade would not have been my top choice, but he would have at least been on the list. And, the guys at VCU know more about that than I do, so it's probably a very good hire.

But, to your point, to have that kind of consistency for that long, you either have to hold on to your coach, or be good at identifying and hiring other good coaches. I believe that VCU is. George Mason....not so much.

paulxu

04-15-2015, 12:50 PM

Excellent post Paul.

One thing: you have Duke listed twice above.

Otherwise, I absolutely believe its our turn to retain an excellent coach for a long time now.

Ack. Should have been Kentucky listed with us. Corrected.

MADXSTER

04-15-2015, 02:00 PM

Most of the schools on that list above have had the same coach all that time, or one change.
Xavier has had 4 different coaches. That's some consistency.

To me this is why it is so important to retain a head coach if Xavier wants to get to the next level. My guess is that these schools also have less turnover with assistant coaches. Stability in a program is huge yet undervalued.

muskiefan82

04-15-2015, 02:17 PM

But, to your point, to have that kind of consistency for that long, you either have to hold on to your coach, or be good at identifying and hiring other good coaches. .

I think you also have to have coaches who are good at identifying good coaches to bring up through the system as well. X has been blessed with coaches who hires excellent assistants.

Masterofreality

04-15-2015, 06:19 PM

So does this mean that we, errrrrrrrr....

"Snuck up on people?" Or is it "Sneaked"?

I need LH to make a ruling. :biggrin:

paulxu

04-15-2015, 06:33 PM

I should have put that post in this thread:

"Two Full Seasons of Sub-Par Basketball. What now?"

Really though, there are only 6 programs, 6!, that have been to more NCAA's this century than our Muskies.
It's like looking at the Forbes list, or the 9 teams to the S16 5 times in the last 8 years.
X is there, and the only BE team. We are doing pretty damn good (I think).

DC Muskie

04-15-2015, 06:42 PM

What's aggravating about Paul's post is that at the beginning of next season, we won't be ranked and people will think that is fine.

Masterofreality

04-15-2015, 06:57 PM

What's aggravating about Paul's post is that at the beginning of next season, we won't be ranked and people will think that is fine.

I sure as hell don't think it's fine, but how can you control it?

DC Muskie

04-15-2015, 07:03 PM

I sure as hell don't think it's fine, but how can you control it?

Winning the BE.

Masterofreality

04-15-2015, 07:06 PM

Winning the BE.

Well, True Dat!

XU 87

04-15-2015, 08:17 PM

So does this mean that we, errrrrrrrr....

"Snuck up on people?" Or is it "Sneaked"?

I need LH to make a ruling. :biggrin:

http://grammarist.com/usage/sneaked-snuck/

Hip people use "snuck".

muskiefan82

04-16-2015, 09:49 AM

Winning the BE.

Would you rather win the BE, get a 1 or 2 seed, and flame out in round 2 (3) or finish somewhere between 2 and 6 and make a decent run?

DC Muskie

04-16-2015, 10:00 AM

Would you rather win the BE, get a 1 or 2 seed, and flame out in round 2 (3) or finish somewhere between 2 and 6 and make a decent run?

Ah, I was waiting for someone to bring up the "either/or" proposition. And someone has to explain to me why these ideas are mutually exclusive. Why is finishing between 2nd and 6th and making a decent run somehow a better choice, simply because Villanova can't seem to beat lesser teams while we do?

Why can't we win the BE and make decent runs? Are all BE champions doomed to flame out? Should we simply not care where we finish?

We flamed out when we finished 3rd last year. Was that acceptable?

Arguments like the one you put forward are just baffling to me.

We are talking about being a consistent winner. Consistency isn't just a few weeks in March, it's the entire season. It's winning on the road, winning conference championships and winning in March. And what comes along with that is being recognized in rankings throughout the year, rather then mere mentions of tournament success in one off games in march.

And then get ranked at the end of the year and repeating the cycle the following fall where we aren't ranked. There is a disconnect there. Michigan State is able to make deep runs in the tournament and no one doubts them. We can't get people to think we can beat BYU, Ole Miss and Georgia State. And even when we do, there is still this perception that overall we are not a consistent top 25 program.

What changes that is winning consistently.

muskiefan82

04-16-2015, 10:11 AM

It's just a question. I think that when you win the BE and get a 1 or 2 seed (which, frankly, the BE champion SHOULD get) then the expectations are MUCH higher. I would expect a MINIMUM Sweet 16 from a 2 seed and at least the E8 from a 1 seed. They aren't mutually exclusive and I believe X would run with such a high seed and do real damage.

The question is a pure hypothetical. Would you rather have the season long and pre tournament notoriety a 1 or 2 seed brings or blow it out of the water by making a run as a middle seed? Villanova received run all year and that was great, but X received the praise at the end.

I do; however, expect X to do both.

Masterofreality

04-16-2015, 10:34 AM

I think that consistency is a product of experienced players, and we had a number of new pieces that had to be worked in this year.

While we can say that there will be new pieces also worked in next year, except for Kaiser Gates, the new faces would have practiced for a year in the system. I expect a less of a roller coaster effect next year...especially early.

That still doesn't mean we'll get ranked. Hell, Rothstein had SucKS ranked and not us. Talk about craziness, and you can't control crazy.

Xavier

04-16-2015, 10:47 AM

muskiefan82

04-16-2015, 11:37 AM

This year I would've rather won the Big East tournament and only win one NCAA tournament game than do what we did. Just because I want some Big East championship gear.

There is that, of course. Here's to having both next year.

JTG

04-16-2015, 11:49 AM

This year I would've rather won the Big East tournament and only win one NCAA tournament game than do what we did. Just because I want some Big East championship gear.

You are kidding, Right ?

Masterofreality

04-16-2015, 11:50 AM

This year I would've rather won the Big East tournament and only win one NCAA tournament game than do what we did. Just because I want some Big East championship gear.

Just for the Hell of it, and trying to channel good karma, I broke out my A10 Champion T Shirt from a few years ago during the BE Tourney.

It worked for two games- now washed and retired again.

JTG

04-16-2015, 11:53 AM

Ah, I was waiting for someone to bring up the "either/or" proposition. And someone has to explain to me why these ideas are mutually exclusive. Why is finishing between 2nd and 6th and making a decent run somehow a better choice, simply because Villanova can't seem to beat lesser teams while we do?

Why can't we win the BE and make decent runs? Are all BE champions doomed to flame out? Should we simply not care where we finish?

We flamed out when we finished 3rd last year. Was that acceptable?

Arguments like the one you put forward are just baffling to me.

We are talking about being a consistent winner. Consistency isn't just a few weeks in March, it's the entire season. It's winning on the road, winning conference championships and winning in March. And what comes along with that is being recognized in rankings throughout the year, rather then mere mentions of tournament success in one off games in march.

And then get ranked at the end of the year and repeating the cycle the following fall where we aren't ranked. There is a disconnect there. Michigan State is able to make deep runs in the tournament and no one doubts them. We can't get people to think we can beat BYU, Ole Miss and Georgia State. And even when we do, there is still this perception that overall we are not a consistent top 25 program.

What changes that is winning consistently.

Not to mention that no matter how they fail in March, Gonzaga would be favored against almost anyone, and ranked in the Top Ten. I can fully understand the unbridled hatred for them on this board, for that very reason.

paulxu

04-16-2015, 12:38 PM

Since I started this mess, and somehow it turned into Villanova central, I decided to do another review...just for the hell of it.
I'm using this century, 15 NCAA's as the time period again. Why? One can pick anytime frame I'm sure, but for most people today, and certainly for recruits, any longer period won't be relevant.

With that in mind, here's the last 15 years of NCAA tournament comparison:

Appearances: Vil 10...XU 13
S16's: Vil 4...XU 6
E8's: Vil 2...XU 2
NCAA wins: Vil 14...XU 17

There really is only one thing that might make you appreciate Villanova more...on one of those E8's they made it to a FF.

Absent that, Xavier's record is certainly far better. Just one more damn win and we might not even be having this conversation.
Villanova gets all the press and rankings from being the BE leader (well deserved), but when the rubber meets the road in March, Xavier does better.

Except for one Sato 3, or pulling Myles quicker, or whatever in Atlanta that I see in my nightmares...other than that...give me X every day, and twice on Sunday.

(not that this will dissuade anyone from doomsday posting in December)

Xavier

04-16-2015, 12:49 PM

You are kidding, Right ?

I wouldn't take that every year. Just once to win the Big East. Not sure what sounds better to a recruit "Play at Xavier, we won the Big East last year" or "we went to the sweet 16 last year"

DC Muskie

04-17-2015, 07:06 AM

Villanova received run all year and that was great, but X received the praise at the end.

Do you think either team walks away from the season thinking 2015 was the best season ever? My guess is that both teams are experiencing some levels of both happiness and disappointment.

Villanova finished in the top ten in both polls. We were ranked in one and not in the other. Next season, who do you think will be ranked to begin the year?

nuts4xu

04-17-2015, 08:59 AM

It is clear to me our plan to "sneak up on people" worked to perfection. We "sneaked" our way into the top 25 by the end of the season.

Nice work Team 93!

JTG

04-17-2015, 09:11 AM

Do you think either team walks away from the season thinking 2015 was the best season ever? My guess is that both teams are experiencing some levels of both happiness and disappointment.

Villanova finished in the top ten in both polls. We were ranked in one and not in the other. Next season, who do you think will be ranked to begin the year?

I would much rather be in XU's place than Villanova. We struggled at times but got our act together in March, and made the S16, and damn near made the elite 8. Pretty good, in my opinion. Villanova, on the other hand, cruised all year and then crapped the bed as a 1 seed. That is humiliating.

DC Muskie

04-17-2015, 12:49 PM

It is clear to me our plan to "sneak up on people" worked to perfection. We "sneaked" our way into the top 25 by the end of the season.

Nice work Team 93!

I know we joke about it, but really we are really good at sneaking up on people at the end of the season. We have to be the most successful team in March that is completely under the radar.

It's pretty remarkable. We don't do much during the season, therefore when March rolls around, no one picks us and then all of a sudden we land a favorable draw and BOOM we accomplish another Sweet 16 that no one really pays any attention to except one week in March.

We are a program that really never has to deal with pressure because we never put ourselves in a position to feel it. We are a middle of the pack BE team that does really well in March for the most part. At the end of the day we will be ranked. Rinse, Repeat and Sneak Up.

I would much rather be in XU's place than Villanova. We struggled at times but got our act together in March, and made the S16, and damn near made the elite 8. Pretty good, in my opinion. Villanova, on the other hand, cruised all year and then crapped the bed as a 1 seed. That is humiliating.

I think what's more humiliating is Nova cruising through a conference that did nothing other than us in the middle weeks of March, and we beat Ole Miss and Georgia State to get there. And that's cool that we did, and we certainly can't control who we play.

But when the falls rolls around, Nova will be ranked, and we won't. Nova will once again land top recruits, contend for BE titles, and have a better opportunity each year to get the monkey off their back because of the first two points; while we go back to relative anonymity.

I'm hoping against hope that we can begin a new trend. Start the season ranked, embrace the pressure, win titles and keep making deep runs in the tournament.

Masterofreality

04-17-2015, 01:09 PM

From another thread:

"ESPN Way Too Early Top 25 for 2015-16

20. Xavier Musketeers

The Musketeers have made a habit of Sweet 16 incursions in recent seasons. Their latest -- which ended with a hard-fought loss to Arizona -- set the table for an extended run of success. Replacing center Matt Stainbrook won't be easy, and not just because Stainbrook, a part-time Uber driver, looked less like a Division I athlete than your college dorm mate who spent way too much time on Reddit. He was also a brilliant low-post anchor on both ends of the floor. Meanwhile, senior point guard Dee Davis was a high-level distributor who quietly keyed much of the Musketeers' overall offensive success. But coach Chris Mack's returners are awfully good, too: Trevon Bluiett just completed the first of what projects to be a stellar four-year career; Myles Davis is a lethal outside-in scorer; center Jalen Reynolds looks more than capable of taking on Stainbrook's minutes; and former Indiana guard Remy Abell is in line for a major senior campaign. Xavier will miss the big fella. Heck, we all will. But Mack's well-coached bunch has a bright future ahead"

We are ranked somewhere now. That being said, I put as much stock in these things as I do vdump's pre-season A10 Championships.

DC Muskie

04-18-2015, 08:49 AM

I will wait and see how it changes when the season approaches. And I do take stock in these things because it's another opportunity to put Xavier in the national spotlight.

XfansinKy

04-18-2015, 09:05 AM

DC Muskie

04-18-2015, 10:04 AM

My guess is we start out just outside the top 25 with an opportunity to get in after a few early wins. I have heard our past incoming recruits say they liked Xavier because they are in the top 25 a lot. We need to get back to that. The table is set too. Go X!

I agree. If we enter the year 2016 without being ranked, we will have gone 5 years (I think I have that correct) where we weren't ranked during the season.

I think that's the crux as to why our March runs have a short shelf life.

Blue Blobs Bro

04-18-2015, 02:14 PM

I agree. If we enter the year 2016 without being ranked, we will have gone 5 years (I think I have that correct) where we weren't ranked during the season.

I think that's the crux as to why our March runs have a short shelf life.

Weren't we ranked 8th in the country in 2012 for a week or two?

muskienick

04-18-2015, 03:03 PM

Weren't we ranked 8th in the country in 2012 for a week or two?

But was that at the beginning of the season or later in the 2012-13 season?

DC Muskie

04-18-2015, 03:22 PM

Weren't we ranked 8th in the country in 2012 for a week or two?

I can't remember. I think Causalfan told me once it was back in 2011.

But not remembering is also a problem, although I'm getting older and forgetting too much.

XUMIOH12

04-18-2015, 04:04 PM

Weren't we ranked 8th in the country in 2012 for a week or two?

We got as high as 8th in the rankings in December 2011 during the 11-12 season. Started the season 8-0.

DC Muskie

04-18-2015, 06:47 PM

We got as high as 8th in the rankings in December 2011 during the 11-12 season. Started the season 8-0.

Thank you for this!

Masterofreality

04-19-2015, 09:50 AM

We got as high as 8th in the rankings in December 2011 during the 11-12 season. Started the season 8-0.

Yeah, and then thin skinned Pussy G'Lawn Gwyn and Big Frease's face meeting Nancy Gates' fist happened.

xukeith

04-19-2015, 07:26 PM

I was looking for a place to post something, and this seems as good a thread as any rather than start one.
And this thread reminded me that I'm spoiled by our success, and allow it to ramp my expectations up every year.
And I still want to see us soon in a Final Four.

But, Christi Mack posted something from Xavier Nation last month:

And that got me thinking about just how fortunate we have been. I tried to do a little research and came up with this (may have missed some teams):

Since the beginning of this century, there have been 15 NCAA tournaments.
Kansas, Duke, MSU, Wisconsin and Gonzaga have been to all 15
Texas has been to 14
Xavier and Kentucky have been to 13

That's it, I think. That is damn elite company.

Here's the kicker. Think about what the expectations are with Smart leaving VCU, or the dips other schools have taken when changing coaches.
Most of the schools on that list above have had the same coach all that time, or one change.
Xavier has had 4 different coaches. That's some consistency.

Of these 8 teams who has been to most FFs, E8, S16 in last 15 years?