12 Times This Year

[xudash]

On twelve occasions this season, this board has gone from frustrated to angry, from looking for answers to placing blistering blame, and from pleading for patience and perspective to sinking to the level of batshit craziness.

I have no answers or any deep perspective to offer here, though I'm offering a few comments here. We've made it to the end of the regular season. It's probably an opportunity for a lot of rehash, but we have until Wednesday in Manhattan to see how the journey unfolds from here.

At any rate, the warship made it safely back into port at 19 - 12. All indications are such that we've made the NCAA Tournament, albeit not with the kind of seeding some of our colleagues will enjoy.

Who were these guys this year? At least to me, they're a great group of guys who genuinely like one another and represent the University very well. I suspect we all like that. Any takeover killers in the group like a Tu Holloway? Perhaps not. Trevon made the key free throws against UC. Dee made key FT's this afternoon. Maybe there are other examples of great heroics this season, but I don't believe any of these guys have impressed us as players who could sense trouble and takeover a game to secure a win. Do they want to win? Of course they do. Have they always understood what that takes? It seems not; we didn't always get 40 minutes from them when we needed them badly.

Does that shift your focus to the coaching staff? To Chris Mack individually? To the assistants? Those gentlemen, in whatever combination, got raked over the coals here the last few months.

Was it youth? Was that just an excuse for a team anchored by a senior center and senior point guard with a few somewhat experienced parts thrown in? Or was it about how youthful this team has been this year? It's March now, but still there were 4 freshmen on the floor at the same time today.

Is it that we're now in the Big East, and that that is a whole new box of marbles compared to what the A10 - this season, in particular - is about. I've read here where Creighton isn't all that good. Well, there not all that bad, either; consider the number of close games they lost this year. We've discussed this before, but this FLAGSHIP program simply isn't used to racking up a lot of losses. Twelve times this year this site became hot and rather toxic.

So, what? So nothing: it's a message board so it's all allowed.

So what's the point of this thread? Well, it's been rambling and repetitive up to this point, but allow me a wrap-up:

TOTAL BODY OF WORK IS WHAT IT HAS ALWAYS BEEN ABOUT. It's been ugly, but I believe we've achieved our goal. Now we can achieve better positioning. Who knows what happens from here, but who thought it was going to end up at 19-12? Who thought it would be better than that? Worse than that?

Take a deep breath and enjoy the weekend everyone. WE WON OUR LAST REGULAR SEASON GAME ON THE ROAD WHEN IT WAS BADLY NEEDED. Even that wasn't pretty, but it was a W.

[markchal]

Unless we win an NCAA tournament game or go on a tear in the BE tourney, it's still a disappointing season to me. I was expecting the team to gel quicker, especially with the pre-season trip. I was expecting Jalen to have a much bigger impact (it came too late in the season), I was expecting Abell to be one of the top players on the team, and I was expecting adequate senior leadership (Stain was massive today, but he and Dee both struggled in the last half of BE play).

I think the freshmen class was a little overhyped as only Trevon and JP were regular rotation players (although I'm very pleased with what we've seen lately from Austin Jr.) but I'm optimistic because most of our difference makers in the last part of the season have been underclassmen.

I'm disappointed in the coaching (lost too many winnable games, team never really seemed to improve too much, and no development of a backup PG) but making the tournament probably buys Mack another couple years.

I'm glad the league is so tough, because no loss was truly tragic and it gave us plenty of options to atone for our sins, but our non-con schedule needs to improve and we need to skip all early season tournaments from here on.

It's a talented team, and I think what's so frustrating is that they seem so good when they put it all together, but they never seem to do that long enough or consistently enough to make any progress. It feels nice to be safely in the tournament, but we were also one narrowly missed 3 at the buzzer away from the NIT.

[xudash]

Unless we win an NCAA tournament game or go on a tear in the BE tourney, it's still a disappointing season to me. I was expecting the team to gel quicker, especially with the pre-season trip. I was expecting Jalen to have a much bigger impact (it came too late in the season), I was expecting Abell to be one of the top players on the team, and I was expecting adequate senior leadership (Stain was massive today, but he and Dee both struggled in the last half of BE play).

I think the freshmen class was a little overhyped as only Trevon and JP were regular rotation players (although I'm very pleased with what we've seen lately from Austin Jr.) but I'm optimistic because most of our difference makers in the last part of the season have been underclassmen.

I'm disappointed in the coaching (lost too many winnable games, team never really seemed to improve too much, and no development of a backup PG) but making the tournament probably buys Mack another couple years.

I'm glad the league is so tough, because no loss was truly tragic and it gave us plenty of options to atone for our sins, but our non-con schedule needs to improve and we need to skip all early season tournaments from here on.

It's a talented team, and I think what's so frustrating is that they seem so good when they put it all together, but they never seem to do that long enough or consistently enough to make any progress. It feels nice to be safely in the tournament, but we were also one narrowly missed 3 at the buzzer away from the NIT.

Fair post. Excellent point about the talent that can't always be pulled together. I wish I knew why.

[waggy]

Not wanting to play in preseason tournaments is quitter mentality.

[bobbiemcgee]

Could careless about the record at this point. Make the Dance and Advance. New season.

[MuskieFN]

Unless we win an NCAA tournament game or go on a tear in the BE tourney, it's still a disappointing season to me. I was expecting the team to gel quicker, especially with the pre-season trip. I was expecting Jalen to have a much bigger impact (it came too late in the season), I was expecting Abell to be one of the top players on the team, and I was expecting adequate senior leadership (Stain was massive today, but he and Dee both struggled in the last half of BE play).

I think the freshmen class was a little overhyped as only Trevon and JP were regular rotation players (although I'm very pleased with what we've seen lately from Austin Jr.) but I'm optimistic because most of our difference makers in the last part of the season have been underclassmen.

I'm disappointed in the coaching (lost too many winnable games, team never really seemed to improve too much, and no development of a backup PG) but making the tournament probably buys Mack another couple years.

I'm glad the league is so tough, because no loss was truly tragic and it gave us plenty of options to atone for our sins, but our non-con schedule needs to improve and we need to skip all early season tournaments from here on.

It's a talented team, and I think what's so frustrating is that they seem so good when they put it all together, but they never seem to do that long enough or consistently enough to make any progress. It feels nice to be safely in the tournament, but we were also one narrowly missed 3 at the buzzer away from the NIT.

You like what you've seen from Austin but are disappointed in the coaching for not developing a backup point guard?

[paulxu]

but who thought it was going to end up at 19-12? Who thought it would be better than that? Worse than that?

Never could get the mods to make this public after I screwed up in creating the poll.

http://www.xavierhoops.com/showthread.php?25940-Pre-Season-Pick-ems

[X Factor]

I think you could easily say our record, with the talent we have, is a little disappointing at 19-12. Xavier lost some games they had no business losing (LBSU, Auburn, DePaul,Creighton). Xavier wins those games and they're sitting at 23-8 and probably a 5-6 seed in the NCAA tournament.

It sucks we didn't get anything from Makinde or Edmond, but hopefully it will benefit them and the program down the road. They could be the 2 most talented freshman we had this year, and neither played.

I'm glad it looks like X is going dancing. That is always a good thing. I don't know if this team has what it takes to win a game or two in the NCAA tournament. Too inconsistent on defense.

I just want to whoop Butler's butt on Thursday night!!! GO X!

[Xavier]

You like what you've seen from Austin but are disappointed in the coaching for not developing a backup point guard?

Well. I'd say I like what I've seen from him. But we've seen what, 20 significant minutes in the last 10 games out of him? I'd agree with MarkChal, at this point we should have a back up solidly playing 7-8 good minutes IMO. I think Austin can be that guy but he hardly played significant enough minutes for me to be comfortable with him playing 8 minutes of a tournament game.

[Xavier]

I think you could easily say our record, with the talent we have, is a little disappointing at 19-12. Xavier lost some games they had no business losing (LBSU, Auburn, DePaul,Creighton). Xavier wins those games and they're sitting at 23-8 and probably a 5-6 seed in the NCAA tournament.

It sucks we didn't get anything from Makinde or Edmond, but hopefully it will benefit them and the program down the road. They could be the 2 most talented freshman we had this year, and neither played.

I'm glad it looks like X is going dancing. That is always a good thing. I don't know if this team has what it takes to win a game or two in the NCAA tournament. Too inconsistent on defense.

I just want to whoop Butler's butt on Thursday night!!! GO X!

I thought Makinde red-shirted?

[MuskieFN]

Well. I'd say I like what I've seen from him. But we've seen what, 20 significant minutes in the last 10 games out of him? I'd agree with MarkChal, at this point we should have a back up solidly playing 7-8 good minutes IMO. I think Austin can be that guy but he hardly played significant enough minutes for me to be comfortable with him playing 8 minutes of a tournament game.

I tend to agree about Austin and the backup PG spot in general. But also just wanted to point it out because I think the Mack criticism is overboard. A lot.

[DC Muskie]

We finished 6th in the league. Winning this game shouldn't feel enormously satisfactory. We limped to a .500 conference record finish. We only won 3 conference games on the road. We will get into the tournament, simply because the tournament is diluted with 68 teams and the last 15 or so programs are generally not that good.

It could be worse, which is the positive way of looking at it. And really, when you look it that way, it's overall a little disappointing.

Another year where we see us not finishing in the top 2, I will begin to change my expectations, and seasons like this will thrill me to no end.

[xudash]

Never could get the mods to make this public after I screwed up in creating the poll.

http://www.xavierhoops.com/showthread.php?25940-Pre-Season-Pick-ems

Excellent contribution/reminder Paul. I recall selecting the 20'ish/Jalen will shine option.

My purpose for the thread was a little about therapy and expressing some relief.

Respecting that crap can still happen, I have to believe at this point that we made it into the dance.

I suspect most of us believe that we should be sitting with a better record at this point. I also suspect that it's been so crazy that there's no clear reason why we ended up as we did.

19-12 it is for the regular season. A win against Butler in New York City certainly would be nice. And anything above and beyond that in the win column would be seeding gravy.

So we stay tuned. However, getting to nine and nine like we did today and doing it on the road, given our performance on the road this season, is something to feel relieved about at the very least.

[DC Muskie]

So we stay tuned. However, getting to nine and nine like we did today and doing it on the road, given our performance on the road this season, is something to feel relieved about at the very least.

That is seriously depressing Dash.

[xudash]

That is seriously depressing Dash.

Yes it is, but I'm spinning in a circular reference mode about this season as it is - I just can't figure out why progress wasn't made towards better execution on the court this season.

Relief, and hope that magic will now strike is my present default mode.

[DC Muskie]

Hope for Thursday. That's where I am as well.

[MuskieFN]

I just can't figure out why progress wasn't made towards better execution on the court this season.

Relief, and hope that magic will now strike is my present default mode.

I don't understand that. They have played their best basketball after the first Creighton game, except for that slog at Marquette.

[DC Muskie]

I don't understand that. They have played their best basketball after the first Creighton game, except for that slog at Marquette.

Forget what I said before Dash, this is way more depressing.

[Xu Red Dogg]

"Progress" will be different than it was in our previous conference. In the A10, the lower talent level would allow a more talented Xavier team that started gelling to rip through the league and rack up 13-15 wins. In the BIG EAST, "progress" will be exactly what we saw today. Lose a tough game at St. John's, battle a Top 5 team in Villanova... Then with backs to the wall go to Creighton and WIN.

The top 5 teams in the BIG EAST this year all win the A10 hands down. We played 10 games against those teams.

19 wins, a bye in the conference tournament and a likely NCAA at large bid... All coming against a top 20 SOS. Also, we achieved all of this while redshirting two consensus Top 100 freshmen in Sumner and London.

Would have loved a few more wins but I will take the end result. Cannot wait until Thursday Night.

[DC Muskie]

"Progress" will be different than it was in our previous conference. In the A10, the lower talent level would allowed a more talented Xavier team that started gelling to rip through the league and rack up 13-15 wins. In the BIG EAST, "progress" will be exactly what we saw today. Lose a tough game at St. John's, battle a Top 5 team in Villanova... Then with backs to the wall go to Creighton and WIN.

The top 5 teams in the BIG EAST this year all win the A10 hands down. We played 10 games against those teams.

19 wins, a bye in the conference tournament and a likely NCAA at large bid... All coming against a top 20 SOS. Also, we achieved all of this while redshirting two consensus Top 100 freshmen in Sumner and London.

Would have loved a few more wins but I will take the end result. Cannot wait until Thursday Night.

Progress will be when we stop thinking like this.

I certainly didn't want to join the BE just so we could become the assholes we didn't like when we were in the A10. I like how you stop at the top 5, because that means we wouldn't have won the A10.

Overall this was just a silly post.

[Masterofreality]

Well, count me in the "disappointed" category.

It seems that all year long this staff has been one move behind- especially in close games (no field goals today in the last 3 minutes)- and if it is true that they don't adjust things in advance to who they are playing is wrong and lazy. Today, they had an entire week to prepare vs Creighton, and yet Creighton basically did the same thing as last game at Cintas- in fact they scored more (65 points in regulation at Cintas vs 73 today). This time Dee made both free throws at the end rather than one that forced an OT. They ran the same freaking pick and roll to great success and we defended it as badly as before. Luckily, they only made 20-32 free throws today- 62.5% vs 73.2% for the year.

In addition, some of the sub patterns were very questionable all year. This team lost 4 more games than I thought they would lose- all of them to teams with inferior talent- and all of them because of strategy that could have been easily changed. Yes, we were young, but the youth wasn't why we lost to Auburn, LBSU, DePaul and Creighton. In fact, only in the first Creighton game out of those four was a game where at least half or more of Xavier's total points weren't scored by Freshmen and Sophomores combined.

What I hope for is that the stubborn "we do what we do" will be changed upon reflection and off season game tape reviews. I'll continue to hope that this staff decides to change the constant awful hedging and goes to a defense more suited for this teams skill set.

As for this year, we got what we got-6th in the league based on a head coach that I would rate behind, Wright, Cooley, Holtzman and probably even McDermott and Willard as far as coaching pre and in game. St. John's and GTown probably had better talent. When it all boils down we're mid pack.

[Xu Red Dogg]

Progress will be when we stop thinking like this.

I certainly didn't want to join the BE just so we could become the assholes we didn't like when we were in the A10. I like how you stop at the top 5, because that means we wouldn't have won the A10.

Overall this was just a silly post.

You call it "silly". I call it realistic.

Silly is thinking we are going to roll out a 25 win team every year and get a 5 seed. Look around college basketball. Not going to happen. Silly is allowing uninformed expectations to not allow you to enjoy a pretty good body of work for a team in a very tough league. Silly and sad.

[MuskieFN]

I'm surrendering. I was really happy a couple of hours ago. Now I'm not sure it's worth watching on Thursday.

[DC Muskie]

You call it "silly". I call it realistic.

Silly is thinking we are going to roll out a 25 win team every year and get a 5 seed. Look around college basketball. Not going to happen. Silly is allowing uninformed expectations to not allow you to enjoy a pretty good body of work for a team in a very tough league. Silly and sad.

You know what, maybe you're right. Maybe I have too high standards. It should be good for us to simply give it "the ole college try" because hey, look around college basketball...it's simply unrealistic to expect to roll out 25 wins. We aren't Nova, so we shouldn't expect that.

I mean this league is tough, and I shouldn't expect our team to be equally tough. Shouldn't expect us to continue an upward trajectory. Just be happy with a .500 finish and 3 road wins. Because it's tough. And we aren't Butler. Or Georgetown. Or Providence.

I shouldn't expect at some point maybe we could be ranked at like St. John's and Seton Hall. Because this is a tough league. It's silly to think and expect of better days in a tough conference.

Just be glad we did what we did.

Yeah, you're right. Seriously, like I said, next year, we finish like we did this year, I'll be right there with you, typing out realistic posts of how tough our conference is and frankly Xavier, we ain't tough. So don't expect to ever win this conference. Because we should be realistic and enjoy our 6th place .500 conference finish.

Thanks for the insight.

[DC Muskie]

I'm surrendering. I was really happy a couple of hours ago. Now I'm not sure it's worth watching on Thursday.

See, just like our basketball program in our tough conference, we have fans who give up only after a few hours.

Watch Thursday FN and enjoy it regardless of the outcome. Just remember it's tough, and we ended up with a pretty good body of work that 250 some other teams would be happy to have.

[Xavier]

You call it "silly". I call it realistic.

Silly is thinking we are going to roll out a 25 win team every year and get a 5 seed. Look around college basketball. Not going to happen. Silly is allowing uninformed expectations to not allow you to enjoy a pretty good body of work for a team in a very tough league. Silly and sad.

I think it's fair to expect to be a top 3 team in the Big East. Sometimes falling down to 4-6. I hate to say it, I don't think this league is as tough as everyone says. I think Past Xavier teams would have been top 3 this year, maybe even compete for the Big East championship with Nova. I worry people will use "the toughness or the league" excuse as to why Xavier's expectations slip. The purpose of joining a league like this was to help the program on its path upwards, not to slip into average.

[DC Muskie]

I think it's fair to expect to be a top 3 team in the Big East. Sometimes falling down to 4-6. I hate to say it, I don't think this league is as tough as everyone says. I think Past Xavier teams would have been top 3 this year, maybe even compete for the Big East championship with Nova. I worry people will use "the toughness or the league" excuse as to why Xavier's expectations slip. The purpose of joining a league like this was to help the program.

No man, it's silly and sad to think like this. Just be happy and enjoy whatever body of work we end up with.

Don't aspire to anything. Accept and be grateful. It's tough out there.

[Xu Red Dogg]

I shouldn't expect at some point maybe we could be ranked at like St. John's and Seton Hall. Because this is a tough league. It's silly to think and expect of better days in a tough conference.



Haha. Now we are really focusing on the important things. Being in the top 25 is so cool. Forget about the numbers that matter. Give me some votes from reporters!

I get it buddy... Xavier needs to morph into the cream of the crop in our new conference overnight. Forget the decades of a headstart on the national landscape that Nova and GTown have... Recruits, McDonalds kids especially, head over to Xavier and lets get rolling! The honeymoon is over!

[DC Muskie]

Haha. Now we are really focusing on the important things. Being in the top 25 is so cool. Forget about the numbers that matter. Give me some votes from reporters!

I get it buddy... Xavier needs to morph into the cream of the crop in our new conference overnight. Forget the decades of a headstart on the national landscape that Nova and GTown have... Recruits, McDonalds kids especially, head over to Xavier and lets get rolling! The honeymoon is over!

Again, more wisdom. Why on earth should we be ranked, it's just some stupid reporters, and really who needs to be on anybody's radar! Give me my 6th place finish! Why market being a top 25 program year in a year out. That's silly and sad. I'm getting it now!

Decades of buildup by Georgetown, and Nova, simply means we have to wait another what, 20 or 30 years? Maybe we never reach them, because it's not like they are going to stop having basketball programs. This league is tough, and toughness isn't something that happens overnight.

I mean we lost recruits like Jenkins and Hart to Nova. Hell we even lost a coach to Jay Wright. We had another kid who committed to us, then left to go to Georgetown. We need to take our time, keep finishing 6th, hell maybe even 7th, before this sort of stuff changes. And please God, please don't let us be ranked. It's stupid reporters and frankly we don't need that type of attention to finish 6th in our tough conference.

You are really spot on with all of this Dogg. Keep it up!

[DC Muskie]

Being in the top 25 is so cool. Forget about the numbers that matter. Give me some votes from reporters!

Seriously you have to be the only fan of any basketball program who doesn't care about never being ranked.

[X-Fan]

We finished 6th in the league. Winning this game shouldn't feel enormously satisfactory. We limped to a .500 conference record finish. We only won 3 conference games on the road. We will get into the tournament, simply because the tournament is diluted with 68 teams and the last 15 or so programs are generally not that good.

It could be worse, which is the positive way of looking at it. And really, when you look it that way, it's overall a little disappointing.

Another year where we see us not finishing in the top 2, I will begin to change my expectations, and seasons like this will thrill me to no end.


"Progress" will be different than it was in our previous conference. In the A10, the lower talent level would allowed a more talented Xavier team that started gelling to rip through the league and rack up 13-15 wins. In the BIG EAST, "progress" will be exactly what we saw today. Lose a tough game at St. John's, battle a Top 5 team in Villanova... Then with backs to the wall go to Creighton and WIN.

The top 5 teams in the BIG EAST this year all win the A10 hands down. We played 10 games against those teams.

19 wins, a bye in the conference tournament and a likely NCAA at large bid... All coming against a top 20 SOS. Also, we achieved all of this while redshirting two consensus Top 100 freshmen in Sumner and London.

Would have loved a few more wins but I will take the end result. Cannot wait until Thursday Night.


Progress will be when we stop thinking like this.

I certainly didn't want to join the BE just so we could become the assholes we didn't like when we were in the A10. I like how you stop at the top 5, because that means we wouldn't have won the A10.

Overall this was just a silly post.


You call it "silly". I call it realistic.

Silly is thinking we are going to roll out a 25 win team every year and get a 5 seed. Look around college basketball. Not going to happen. Silly is allowing uninformed expectations to not allow you to enjoy a pretty good body of work for a team in a very tough league. Silly and sad.
I've said this all year, but I'll say it again: the inexperience of this team was more significant we anticipated.

Our two seniors are good, not great. They have glaring weaknesses that other teams can exploit.

The Jrs were probably the biggest let down. Remy has been inconsistent, and has not been the defensive stopper that we thought he'd be. Farr went from starter to barely playing.

After that we have 2 So that came through in many games in Jalen & Myles. Randolf is a non factor.

Finally, they Frosh. Trevon, JP, and Larry. All in all, not bad years for Freshmen.

X was basically depending on 2 Sr., 2 So, & 2 Frosh. Tell me, whats the core of most great Xavier teams?
Upperclassmen: 1990, 1995, 1997/98, 2004, 2008, 2009, 2012
Underclassmen: 2010 (with a mature Crawford, and warriors in Jason Love and Dante Jackson)

Also let's stop acting like this program hasn't gone through transitional/rebuilding years before.

Gillen to Prosser: Great MCC finish 1st year, growing pain 2nd year with Frosh/Soph in tougher league, 3rd yr ends in a 1st rd upset, underachieve after that
Prosser to Matta: Dude won 1 Tourney game with David Freaking West (who he got from Prosser), and goes on improbable run 3rd yr so that he can bolt.
Matta to Miller: Struggle City the first few years. Only gets to Tourney 2nd yr because of A10 Tourney win in Cincy. Good 3rd Yr, killing it 4th & 5th years.
Miller to Mack: Great first 3 years. Rebuild 4th yr. Make Tourney in 1st BE year, should make it again this year with an inexperienced team.

I'll add that Mack has stayed longer than Matta & just as long as Miller, and has had to deal with different factors.

My point is this: No one on here has lowered their expectations. The goal is Final Four, then NC. However, it's a process. We wanted to be in a better conference, well here you go.

The table is set. I am PUMPED for next year. They sky is the limit. They last time X had a team this talented, Mack took them to the brink of another elite 8.

Now, we're on to Butler.

[Xu Red Dogg]

I mean we lost recruits like Jenkins and Hart to Nova. Hell we even lost a coach to Jay Wright. We had another kid who committed to us, then left to go to Georgetown. We need to take our time, keep finishing 6th, hell maybe even 7th, before this sort of stuff changes.

All of this happened while Xavier was in the A10.

What changes is Xavier goes to the BIG EAST, makes 2 straight NCAA Tournaments while in the new conference, enjoys more financial benfits than ever before, continues to build its brand, elevates recruiting, ect.

It is an exciting process and something I have enjoyed watching unfold and look forward to enjoying even more as we move forward.

[xsteve1]

Happy with the win today but count me in with the disappointed crowd. It should have never came down to having to beat Creighton on the road to make the tournament. The way this team played it's first 5 games or so I thought they would be at the worst 2nd or 3rd in the BE and probably a 5 or 4 seed in the NCAA tournament. Our freshmen really didn't progress like I thought they would. I think the staff did a poor job of developing a backup for Dee.
Next year is a big year for the program and staff.

[JEHARDI]

K
You know what, maybe you're right. Maybe I have too high standards. It should be good for us to simply give it "the ole college try" because hey, look around college basketball...it's simply unrealistic to expect to roll out 25 wins. We aren't Nova, so we shouldn't expect that.

I mean this league is tough, and I shouldn't expect our team to be equally tough. Shouldn't expect us to continue an upward trajectory. Just be happy with a .500 finish and 3 road wins. Because it's tough. And we aren't Butler. Or Georgetown. Or Providence.

I shouldn't expect at some point maybe we could be ranked at like St. John's and Seton Hall. Because this is a tough league. It's silly to think and expect of better days in a tough conference.

Just be glad we did what we did.

Yeah, you're right. Seriously, like I said, next year, we finish like we did this year, I'll be right there with you, typing out realistic posts of how tough our conference is and frankly Xavier, we ain't tough. So don't expect to ever win this conference. Because we should be realistic and enjoy our 6th place .500 conference finish.

Thanks for the insight.

Nova has 2 tourney wins since going to the FF in 2009. The reality is it is tough to win big consistently. Should we have high aspirations, no doubt but everything will not always go as planned and when it does not still being on the cusp of a tourney bid is not all bad.

[DC Muskie]

All of this happened while Xavier was in the A10.

What changes is Xavier goes to the BIG EAST, makes 2 straight NCAA Tournaments while in the new conference, enjoys more financial benfits than ever before, continues to build its brand, elevates recruiting, ect.

It is an exciting process and something I have enjoyed watching unfold and look forward to enjoying even more as we move forward.

It certainly is exciting finishing 6th in the tough BE conference! I can't argue that!

And build that brand on a network no one in the country watches, elevates recruiting to end up finishing 6th in the conference, and whatever involves etc, by never being ranked!

Genius Dogg.

[DC Muskie]

K

Nova has 2 tourney wins since going to the FF in 2009. The reality is it is tough to win big consistently. Should we have high aspirations, no doubt but everything will not always go as planned and when it does not still being on the cusp of a tourney bid is not all bad.

I think I have admitted things are tough. I mean that FF appearance for Nova was the height of an Elite 8 run, and two sweet 16s appearances.

So if you add it all up from 2005 until 2009, Nova went to Two Elite 8's, three Sweet 16's and a Final Four.

We are not Nova. It's tough. We have high aspirations, until the season comes to an end and then we can look back and say how tough things were. I understand.

[Wheelhouse]

Next year is a big year for the program and staff.

Yup.

[xudash]

J
I've said this all year, but I'll say it again: the inexperience of this team was more significant we anticipated.

Our two seniors are good, not great. They have glaring weaknesses that other teams can exploit.

The Jrs were probably the biggest let down. Remy has been inconsistent, and has not been the defensive stopper that we thought he'd be. Farr went from starter to barely playing.

After that we have 2 So that came through in many games in Jalen & Myles. Randolf is a non factor.

Finally, they Frosh. Trevon, JP, and Larry. All in all, not bad years for Freshmen.

X was basically depending on 2 Sr., 2 So, & 2 Frosh. Tell me, whats the core of most great Xavier teams?
Upperclassmen: 1990, 1995, 1997/98, 2004, 2008, 2009, 2012
Underclassmen: 2010 (with a mature Crawford, and warriors in Jason Love and Dante Jackson)

Also let's stop acting like this program hasn't gone through transitional/rebuilding years before.

Gillen to Prosser: Great MCC finish 1st year, growing pain 2nd year with Frosh/Soph in tougher league, 3rd yr ends in a 1st rd upset, underachieve after that
Prosser to Matta: Dude won 1 Tourney game with David Freaking West (who he got from Prosser), and goes on improbable run 3rd yr so that he can bolt.
Matta to Miller: Struggle City the first few years. Only gets to Tourney 2nd yr because of A10 Tourney win in Cincy. Good 3rd Yr, killing it 4th & 5th years.
Miller to Mack: Great first 3 years. Rebuild 4th yr. Make Tourney in 1st BE year, should make it again this year with an inexperienced team.

I'll add that Mack has stayed longer than Matta & just as long as Miller, and has had to deal with different factors.

My point is this: No one on here has lowered their expectations. The goal is Final Four, then NC. However, it's a process. We wanted to be in a better conference, well here you go.

The table is set. I am PUMPED for next year. They sky is the limit. They last time X had a team this talented, Mack took them to the brink of another elite 8.

Now, we're on to Butler.

Enjoyable post. Great perspective.

[Fireball]

So...serious question...

Isn't it too early to be disappointed by a team that hasn't finished its season yet? Sure, we're 19-12, 9-9 in the Big East, and finished 6th in the conference. I understand how that doesn't meet some expectations. Hell, I don't know if it meets mine, and I tend to be the optimistic and cheery sort.

We're all having this long discussion (again) about whether or not Mack is or will ever be a coach, about whether or not this team should be better than it is. At the very least, this team is going to play two more games. At the very most, they're going to play 9. It seems to be that writing a review of this year's Xavier team is incomplete without knowing the results of those two games, and so I'm going to hold my judgment until then.

THAT ALL BEING SAID, it is undeniable that this team is on the rise. Maybe this year's regular season results weren't as good or better than we expected, but this year's team is better than last year's, which was better than the team before. Regardless whether you think Mack is the right coach to take us to where we want to go, our stock is going up. Right now, that makes me happy.

There are several teams that we would have considered failures before the postseason started...so let's give this team its postseason before we write its obituary, eh?

[xudash]

So...serious question...

Isn't it too early to be disappointed by a team that hasn't finished its season yet? Sure, we're 19-12, 9-9 in the Big East, and finished 6th in the conference. I understand how that doesn't meet some expectations. Hell, I don't know if it meets mine, and I tend to be the optimistic and cheery sort.

We're all having this long discussion (again) about whether or not Mack is or will ever be a coach, about whether or not this team should be better than it is. At the very least, this team is going to play two more games. At the very most, they're going to play 9. It seems to be that writing a review of this year's Xavier team is incomplete without knowing the results of those two games, and so I'm going to hold my judgment until then.

THAT ALL BEING SAID, it is undeniable that this team is on the rise. Maybe this year's regular season results weren't as good or better than we expected, but this year's team is better than last year's, which was better than the team before. Regardless whether you think Mack is the right coach to take us to where we want to go, our stock is going up. Right now, that makes me happy.

There are several teams that we would have considered failures before the postseason started...so let's give this team its postseason before we write its obituary, eh?

I didn't start this thread for purposes of attempting a summary for the season.

I started this thread because we've reached a key point: the end of the regular season, with an invitation to the NCAA tournament being most likely.

Hell, as I've admitted, I started this thread as much for therapy for me, for the most part, as anything else. I understand some of this is rehashed material, but there are some good insights being made here along the way. Personally, I am relieved that we've done enough to garner a bid, though I believe as many here do that they could've posted a better record than they did, especially looking at how some of the very close losses occurred.

Let's hope that the next chapter to be written in New York and the one to be written after that for the Tournament both turn out well for us.

[markchal]

I've said this all year, but I'll say it again: the inexperience of this team was more significant we anticipated.



While I don't disagree and I think that our best days are ahead of us, I do think we've been inexperienced for the last three years. At some point that stops being an excuse. Also, this is Mack's 5th year, so I don't think we can really give him a rebuilding/transition break.

DC Muskie and Xavier have been dead on in this thread. Our 2007-2008 team is probably contending for a title in this league, or at least in second. I mean, we finished third last year with one of the weaker teams we've had lately. The conference is good, but it's not what some people make it out to be and it's not like it's wildly drastic and it will take years to get acclimated. Some fans act like we should be happy to just be mentioned in the same breath as some of these other teams.

We belong in this league. And we shouldn't be thrilled with a sixth place finish. We're better than that, have been better than that, and hopefully will get back to being better than that.

[RoseyMuskie]

Personally, I believe pre-season expectations are drafted unrealistically, setting ourselves up for disappointment.

I'm a diehard Packers fan. Xavier probably comes number two in my sports hierarchy. With the best QB in the league, I still only set a goal of the playoffs every year. After the playoffs, quirky plays transpire, and other oddities come into play. Sometimes they go for your team. Sometimes they go against. I previously had a Super Bowl or bust attitude - now I can watch more so with enjoyment.

Granted, the NCAA Tourney is a bit different than the NFL Playoffs; however, it's similar in the sense that's the first goal. After that, Sweet 16s come into play, then Final Fours.

I'll run the risk of posters claiming I accept mediocrity. With that being said, first round tournament losses are disappointing, but oftentimes in line with X should be.

I heard a verifiable story last night how Kansas paid off a recruit $100,000 to attend. Competing against programs that do similarly make it tough.

Point in all this - we are likely making the tournament. Goal one achieved. We don't sell our soul to the devil either. There comes a point where we can't expdct Sweet 16 after Sweet 16. So enjoy the season, assess the talents, and make an informed expectation.

[Retire33]

I've said this all year, but I'll say it again: the inexperience of this team was more significant we anticipated.

Our two seniors are good, not great. They have glaring weaknesses that other teams can exploit.

The Jrs were probably the biggest let down. Remy has been inconsistent, and has not been the defensive stopper that we thought he'd be. Farr went from starter to barely playing.

After that we have 2 So that came through in many games in Jalen & Myles. Randolf is a non factor.

Finally, they Frosh. Trevon, JP, and Larry. All in all, not bad years for Freshmen.

X was basically depending on 2 Sr., 2 So, & 2 Frosh. Tell me, whats the core of most great Xavier teams?
Upperclassmen: 1990, 1995, 1997/98, 2004, 2008, 2009, 2012
Underclassmen: 2010 (with a mature Crawford, and warriors in Jason Love and Dante Jackson)

Also let's stop acting like this program hasn't gone through transitional/rebuilding years before.

Gillen to Prosser: Great MCC finish 1st year, growing pain 2nd year with Frosh/Soph in tougher league, 3rd yr ends in a 1st rd upset, underachieve after that
Prosser to Matta: Dude won 1 Tourney game with David Freaking West (who he got from Prosser), and goes on improbable run 3rd yr so that he can bolt.
Matta to Miller: Struggle City the first few years. Only gets to Tourney 2nd yr because of A10 Tourney win in Cincy. Good 3rd Yr, killing it 4th & 5th years.
Miller to Mack: Great first 3 years. Rebuild 4th yr. Make Tourney in 1st BE year, should make it again this year with an inexperienced team.

I'll add that Mack has stayed longer than Matta & just as long as Miller, and has had to deal with different factors.

My point is this: No one on here has lowered their expectations. The goal is Final Four, then NC. However, it's a process. We wanted to be in a better conference, well here you go.

The table is set. I am PUMPED for next year. They sky is the limit. They last time X had a team this talented, Mack took them to the brink of another elite 8.

Now, we're on to Butler.

Spot on! A lot of us forget the struggle over the past 25-30 years to get us to our current situation. We will climb this BE mountain but it was not gonna happen overnight.

[Masterofreality]

Here's my thing...at the risk of repeating ad nauseum. (Forget the macro "program" stuff. Worry about the now.) And I am NOT trying to throw cold water on the win yesterday, but this is my concern:

The goal of Xavier basketball, and quite frankly ALL D1 teams, is to be playing your best basketball at the end of the year. Can anyone really say that this team is playing it's best ball of the year right now? We haven't won 3 in a row since mid December and are a couple of wide ass open 3's away from being in real trouble (SucKS and yesterday.) There have been flashes of improvement- Larry Austin Jr was a very bright spot yesterday- but a lot of the same old...same old...

We split with Creighton....barely. Comparison:
-Creighton shot 42% from 3 yesterday vs their season average of 34%. We still have a problem defending the arc.
-Creighton scored 73 points yesterday and worked the pick and roll at will. In Cincy they scored 65 in regulation and worked the pick and roll at will.
-Xavier won yesterday basically because our Free Throw Shooting Percentage defense was strong- 62% for Creighton vs their season average of 73.5. maybe the coaching staff improved the trash talking since last game? Other than that, the staff did little better to defend Creighton - 144 RPI Creighton.
-Thank Gawd they called a foul for Dee to go to the line, yesterday (Thanks Wally Rutecki, you made up for the horrible offensive foul you called on Stain late in the game when Artino flopped) just like Thank Gawd they called a foul to send Trevon to the line vs the Borecats. Does anyone have any confidence that this staff has an end game play up their sleeve to win? If so, we haven't seen it all year and I'm still waiting.
-The substitution patterns are still mystifying - like they throw datrts toward names then just throw them in the game.
-On CMack's radio show on Monday night, he was lamenting the missed "communication" on defense that allowed Villanova to get open 3's. Uh wait. This is the 5th month of practice and 30 games have gone by. "Maybe it's not communication, but a problem with the "system". This isn't Rocekt Scientry.
-Quite Frankly, Greg McDermott does not have anywhere near the talent that XU does, but his team sure looked like the better coached team. Xavier had 15 turnovers yesterday against a team that gave no pressure. Creighton only had 11. We made 1 more free throw-and that was the difference.

I will not criticize these players. They have busted their collective asses. This staff this year, however, has missed many, many detail things that really dialed in staffs get and see. No, the season is not over yet, but the same things happen game after game with no abatement.

No, I do not want Chris Mack to leave...I hope that this year is a learning experience, however. I know I was a much better coach every year that I kept doing it- and definitely became more flexible. I wish the same for this staff.

[JTG]

Not wanting to play in preseason tournaments is quitter mentality.

Then maybe,just maybe they should stop treating preseason tournaments like a goddamn vacation and try to win.

[DC Muskie]

My point is this: No one on here has lowered their expectations. The goal is Final Four, then NC. However, it's a process. We wanted to be in a better conference, well here you go.

Here we go what? We went to the Elite 8 twice when we were in the A10. Now we are in the BE, we have to start all over again?

Someone please explain to me this idea that since we spent 25-30 years to reach this point, that we have to continue to try and reach something we already have done and now somehow we are building towards a FF and NC, and being in the BE will help that. Because the quoted text makes it sound like we just made it significantly harder on ourselves.

I think all of this rationalization about how long it took to make it to this league is exactly what it is...it's lowering the expectations. How could it not be.

You go through a season, each game. When it's over you can look at as a whole. Then you can either do two things:

1. Rationalize to make it seem better than it probably is...because tomorrow always looks better.
2. You can be a disappointed that the team isn't building upon success, and that hopeful tomorrow didn't come to fruition.

We were right there for a better conference finish. We were right there to put ourselves in a better seed. We were right there to be ranked at some point in the season.

This idea that it's a "process" to improve is silly. Especially in college basketball where one or two players can make the difference.

We have our best recruiting class ever. What does that to some of you? It means a laundry list of rationalizations like:

1. We were inexperienced.
2. We've never done well with inexperienced players because look at our past.
3. Our league is tougher, and therefore it's tougher to do well, especially when you look at points 1 & 2.
4. Our coach has had to deal with things others haven't.

My opinion is that now we are in the BE our expectations should move in the opposite direction. That we should be stepping up the level of play. That we become a program where freshmen and sophomores lead, and are not looked at otherwise. Take a look around at other programs...they have freshmen that are extremely important components to the program. Why not us?

Instead of rationalizing "you wanted the BE, here you go" and chalk it to a process, why not say , "you wanted the BE here you go let's raise the level of the program to even further heights."

Sorry, I don't see how you can say you expect FF and NC, while at the same time rationalize a disappointing regular season due to what we did in the past. The process is actually winning games. Especially on the road in conference play. I don't need 25-30 years of rationalization to be disappointed that we only won 3 roads this season and not one of those wins includes DePaul.

[JTG]

Just look 100 miles up the road...Butler is #2 in the Big East. Average talent..great coach . We sound like Dayton when we talk about how much better we are than Butler.And talk about Steve Lavin like he's a dope. Well Lavin has Gene Keady on his bench to rely on. Keady won a bunch of BIG10 games. IU Purdue and Temple are listed as play in teams, and were not far behind them. Better get a win v.Butler to avoid that shithole up I75.

[xsteve1]

Here we go what? We went to the Elite 8 twice when we were in the A10. Now we are in the BE, we have to start all over again?

Someone please explain to me this idea that since we spent 25-30 years to reach this point, that we have to continue to try and reach something we already have done and now somehow we are building towards a FF and NC, and being in the BE will help that. Because the quoted text makes it sound like we just made it significantly harder on ourselves.

I think all of this rationalization about how long it took to make it to this league is exactly what it is...it's lowering the expectations. How could it not be.

You go through a season, each game. When it's over you can look at as a whole. Then you can either do two things:

1. Rationalize to make it seem better than it probably is...because tomorrow always looks better.
2. You can be a disappointed that the team isn't building upon success, and that hopeful tomorrow didn't come to fruition.

We were right there for a better conference finish. We were right there to put ourselves in a better seed. We were right there to be ranked at some point in the season.

This idea that it's a "process" to improve is silly. Especially in college basketball where one or two players can make the difference.

We have our best recruiting class ever. What does that to some of you? It means a laundry list of rationalizations like:

1. We were inexperienced.
2. We've never done well with inexperienced players because look at our past.
3. Our league is tougher, and therefore it's tougher to do well, especially when you look at points 1 & 2.
4. Our coach has had to deal with things others haven't.

My opinion is that now we are in the BE our expectations should move in the opposite direction. That we should be stepping up the level of play. That we become a program where freshmen and sophomores lead, and are not looked at otherwise. Take a look around at other programs...they have freshmen that are extremely important components to the program. Why not us?

Instead of rationalizing "you wanted the BE, here you go" and chalk it to a process, why not say , "you wanted the BE here you go let's raise the level of the program to even further heights."

Sorry, I don't see how you can say you expect FF and NC, while at the same time rationalize a disappointing regular season due to what we did in the past. The process is actually winning games. Especially on the road in conference play. I don't need 25-30 years of rationalization to be disappointed that we only won 3 roads this season and not one of those wins includes DePaul.

DC Muskie is making too much sense. It's almost like some of our fanbase have went back 25 years and are just happy playing and being competitive against big name teams.

[kyxu]

DC Muskie. Yes.

[X-Fan]

Here we go what? We went to the Elite 8 twice when we were in the A10. Now we are in the BE, we have to start all over again?
Sorry, I don't see how you can say you expect FF and NC, while at the same time rationalize a disappointing regular season due to what we did in the past. The process is actually winning games. Especially on the road in conference play. I don't need 25-30 years of rationalization to be disappointed that we only won 3 roads this season and not one of those wins includes DePaul.
The overall point of my post was we are in a transitional period, and I'm surprised that many underscore the contributing factors. As if simply saying "this is unacceptable" will magically produce immediately different results.

Contributing Factors:
- Recruiting misses in the 2010, 2011, and 2012 classes
- Unexpected departures: Cheeks, Dez, Semaj, and Martin
- Move to better conference (talent/athleticism deficit)
- Coaching

Now, I'll state, these ARE excuses, but they are also why X is has been "down" the past 3 season. With that said, I believe X is one season away from "recovery". The main concern going forward is coaching. X now has the talent. They will be in their third BE season. Next year we see if Coach Mack closer to his 2010/2011 version or his 2013/2014 version.

I agree that this team is not playing exceptionally well right now, however there has been improvement. Their D has improved, but I think it has contributed to their offensive struggles (compared to the start of the season). Also, you can see the season taking a tool on Trevon and JP...just like it did with Myles last year, and other freshmen before them.

To summarize: Are these "on Mack"? Absolutely. There are a number of things he could have done better, and handled better. He certainly bears responsibility in the team not winning 4-6 more games this year. Let's get what we can out of this year. Just because I'm not freaking out about the last 3 years does not mean I have lowered my expectations. I'm simply being patient due to the factors mentioned above. Next year the excuses stop. The cupboard is full, time to get cooking.

[DC Muskie]

The overall point of my post was we are in a transitional period, and I'm surprised that many underscore the contributing factors. As if simply saying "this is unacceptable" will magically produce immediately different results.

Contributing Factors:
- Recruiting misses in the 2010, 2011, and 2012 classes
- Unexpected departures: Cheeks, Dez, Semaj, and Martin
- Move to better conference (talent/athleticism deficit)
- Coaching

Now, I'll state, these ARE excuses, but they are also why X is has been "down" the past 3 season. With that said, I believe X is one season away from "recovery". The main concern going forward is coaching. X now has the talent. They will be in their third BE season. Next year we see if Coach Mack closer to his 2010/2011 version or his 2013/2014 version.

I agree that this team is not playing exceptionally well right now, however there has been improvement. Their D has improved, but I think it has contributed to their offensive struggles (compared to the start of the season). Also, you can see the season taking a tool on Trevon and JP...just like it did with Myles last year, and other freshmen before them.

To summarize: Are these "on Mack"? Absolutely. There are a number of things he could have done better, and handled better. He certainly bears responsibility in the team not winning 4-6 more games this year. Let's get what we can out of this year. Just because I'm not freaking out about the last 3 years does not mean I have lowered my expectations. I'm simply being patient due to the factors mentioned above. Next year the excuses stop. The cupboard is full, time to get cooking.

Xavier is not unique or hold some sort of monopoly on challenges that come up over a few years.

You are arguing that the cupboard is full, while arguing the other side that all of these factors are the reason we can't compete for 2nd in this conference. Look at GTown and the "transition" they went through. They got over that quickly in one year. Look at Butler...same thing on a much bigger scale in my opinion.

While we sit around and lament our contributing factors the past few years like there won't be contributing factors in the future. That somehow next season will wipe away the obstacles in the past. We have argued this before, and we will argue this again.

For the point for me is..you understand those factors and expect those obstacles. Because everyone has them. The key is overcoming them. We all get it's tougher, but rise to that level rather than simply accept that it is a process.

You can spin the idea of "transition" any which way you want and can to rationalize things. My point, and the point of fielding a team to compete is continue to develop, continue to reach new heights.

I and many others can look to the unknown future and see what is possible. But we are living in the now as MOR stated, and what we see is another missed opportunity for improvement for a program overall. Let's stop missing these opportunities. It would be great to begin that particular process on Thursday.

[Masterofreality]

Xavier is not unique or hold some sort of monopoly on challenges that come up over a few years.

You are arguing that the cupboard is full, while arguing the other side that all of these factors are the reason we can't compete for 2nd in this conference. Look at GTown and the "transition" they went through. They got over that quickly in one year. Look at Butler...same thing on a much bigger scale in my opinion.

While we sit around and lament our contributing factors the past few years like there won't be contributing factors in the future. That somehow next season will wipe away the obstacles in the past. We have argued this before, and we will argue this again.

For the point for me is..you understand those factors and expect those obstacles. Because everyone has them. The key is overcoming them. We all get it's tougher, but rise to that level rather than simply accept that it is a process.

You can spin the idea of "transition" any which way you want and can to rationalize things. My point, and the point of fielding a team to compete is continue to develop, continue to reach new heights.

I and many others can look to the unknown future and see what is possible. But we are living in the now as MOR stated, and what we see is another missed opportunity for improvement for a program overall. Let's stop missing these opportunities. It would be great to begin that particular process on Thursday.

1000% Public and private Reps, Brother!

[X-Fan]

Xavier is not unique or hold some sort of monopoly on challenges that come up over a few years.

You are arguing that the cupboard is full, while arguing the other side that all of these factors are the reason we can't compete for 2nd in this conference. Look at GTown and the "transition" they went through. They got over that quickly in one year. Look at Butler...same thing on a much bigger scale in my opinion.

While we sit around and lament our contributing factors the past few years like there won't be contributing factors in the future. That somehow next season will wipe away the obstacles in the past. We have argued this before, and we will argue this again.

For the point for me is..you understand those factors and expect those obstacles. Because everyone has them. The key is overcoming them. We all get it's tougher, but rise to that level rather than simply accept that it is a process.

You can spin the idea of "transition" any which way you want and can to rationalize things. My point, and the point of fielding a team to compete is continue to develop, continue to reach new heights.

I and many others can look to the unknown future and see what is possible. But we are living in the now as MOR stated, and what we see is another missed opportunity for improvement for a program overall. Let's stop missing these opportunities. It would be great to begin that particular process on Thursday.
I do not disagree with this. Again, I agree that those factors ARE excuses and that other programs deal with them. I guess the one thing I have "accepted" is that Coach Mack isn't Sean Miller. He isn't a "next level" coach. He needs more things to go his way to be successful. I don't like it, but that's what we have to work with right now. With that said, there aren't very many "next level" coaches out there. Also, talent is extremely important, and I think that is where Mack can really move the program forward. What Mack has I think is and will be a successful combo for X: High level recruiting, Integrity, and Loyalty. I am hoping that Mack continue to be a better coach, and hopefully bring in better assistants to compensate for his limitations.

Absolutely, let's get this going NOW. I want to see X play with their best in NYC next week. If they do that, they can beat anyone they face.

[DC Muskie]

I do not disagree with this. Again, I agree that those factors ARE excuses and that other programs deal with them. I guess the one thing I have "accepted" is that Coach Mack isn't Sean Miller. He isn't a "next level" coach. He needs more things to go his way to be successful. I don't like it, but that's what we have to work with right now. With that said, there aren't very many "next level" coaches out there. Also, talent is extremely important, and I think that is where Mack can really move the program forward. What Mack has I think is and will be a successful combo for X: High level recruiting, Integrity, and Loyalty. I am hoping that Mack continue to be a better coach, and hopefully bring in better assistants to compensate for his limitations.

Absolutely, let's get this going NOW. I want to see X play with their best in NYC next week. If they do that, they can beat anyone they face.

Well said. Reps.

Now let's do this!

[Retire33]

The overall point of my post was we are in a transitional period, and I'm surprised that many underscore the contributing factors. As if simply saying "this is unacceptable" will magically produce immediately different results.

Contributing Factors:
- Recruiting misses in the 2010, 2011, and 2012 classes
- Unexpected departures: Cheeks, Dez, Semaj, and Martin
- Move to better conference (talent/athleticism deficit)
- Coaching

Now, I'll state, these ARE excuses, but they are also why X is has been "down" the past 3 season. With that said, I believe X is one season away from "recovery". The main concern going forward is coaching. X now has the talent. They will be in their third BE season. Next year we see if Coach Mack closer to his 2010/2011 version or his 2013/2014 version.

I agree that this team is not playing exceptionally well right now, however there has been improvement. Their D has improved, but I think it has contributed to their offensive struggles (compared to the start of the season). Also, you can see the season taking a tool on Trevon and JP...just like it did with Myles last year, and other freshmen before them.

To summarize: Are these "on Mack"? Absolutely. There are a number of things he could have done better, and handled better. He certainly bears responsibility in the team not winning 4-6 more games this year. Let's get what we can out of this year. Just because I'm not freaking out about the last 3 years does not mean I have lowered my expectations. I'm simply being patient due to the factors mentioned above. Next year the excuses stop. The cupboard is full, time to get cooking.

Couldn't have said it better myself

[gladdenguy]

I hope in one of these last couple games Xavier dominates like DCMuskie has dominated this thread.
Well done sir.

[fellahmuskie]

Great stuff from DC and MOR on this thread. Now let's go win in MSG.

[xu82]

I do not disagree with this. Again, I agree that those factors ARE excuses and that other programs deal with them. I guess the one thing I have "accepted" is that Coach Mack isn't Sean Miller. He isn't a "next level" coach. He needs more things to go his way to be successful. I don't like it, but that's what we have to work with right now. With that said, there aren't very many "next level" coaches out there. Also, talent is extremely important, and I think that is where Mack can really move the program forward. What Mack has I think is and will be a successful combo for X: High level recruiting, Integrity, and Loyalty. I am hoping that Mack continue to be a better coach, and hopefully bring in better assistants to compensate for his limitations.

Absolutely, let's get this going NOW. I want to see X play with their best in NYC next week. If they do that, they can beat anyone they face.

Terrific post! Well said.

[Cheesehead]

Great stuff from DC and MOR on this thread. Now let's go win in MSG.

Bottom line is and I think the majority of us would agree, Xavier has enough talent to succeed in the Big East. Now, Mack and staff need to do a better job. It is evident to me that the unacceptable losses were by in large a product of questionable coaching.

I also want Mack to stay and I truly hope he evolves as a coach. Otherwise, Xavier should be prepared to make a change. Xavier should have high expectations, this isn't rec soccer where we hand out orange slices and everyone gets a "participation trophy". This is D-1 basketball and its Xavier's bread and butter. We need the right person for the job.

[Thor in 204]

It seems to me that most of the discussion about expectations of success is about expectations of the fan base. Is there any reason to believe that the the coaching staff has an allegedly "realistic" sense of how far this year's team could go?
I remember being perplexed and disappointed after the loss to Ohio State in the NCAA, after the incredible gift given by John Cahill to OSU etc., that Sean Miller in the post-game show said he thought the team "went as far as it could have gone" or something very close to that. I really disliked that statement. Was he rationalizing to himself rather than saying what he thought about how X got screwed? Or did he have a sense all along of limitation of the team.
When he met with the team on his way out the door to Arizona, he made famous statement about wanting to coach at a place where he could win a NC.
Does anyone think that coaching staff has at the same time high aspirations but also a sense of what they think is realistic? Could some of that filter into mind-set of the team?

[DC Muskie]

It seems to me that most of the discussion about expectations of success is about expectations of the fan base. Is there any reason to believe that the the coaching staff has an allegedly "realistic" sense of how far this year's team could go?
I remember being perplexed and disappointed after the loss to Ohio State in the NCAA, after the incredible gift given by John Cahill to OSU etc., that Sean Miller in the post-game show said he thought the team "went as far as it could have gone" or something very close to that. I really disliked that statement. Was he rationalizing to himself rather than saying what he thought about how X got screwed? Or did he have a sense all along of limitation of the team.
When he met with the team on his way out the door to Arizona, he made famous statement about wanting to coach at a place where he could win a NC.
Does anyone think that coaching staff has at the same time high aspirations but also a sense of what they think is realistic? Could some of that filter into mind-set of the team?

It's definitely an interesting question. The Sean moment you mention, which to me is one of the worst moments in our history, really brings a harsh reality to what we are expecting. Sean says he wanted to win a title, then quickly tried to correct himself by saying we could that here. Anybody could see how terrible that press conference was all around.

The last national champion that didn't have D1 football, was 30 years ago in Nova. Of course Butler is the last non football school to make to the championship game. There have been teams that have knocked on the door of the final four.

If say over the next 15 years we have a few FF appearances that would be epic. Maybe even one. There is evidence that it is tough, but not entirely unattainable.

[xudash]

It's definitely an interesting question. The Sean moment you mention, which to me is one of the worst moments in our history, really brings a harsh reality to what we are expecting. Sean says he wanted to win a title, then quickly tried to correct himself by saying we could that here. Anybody could see how terrible that press conference was all around.

The last national champion that didn't have D1 football, was 30 years ago in Nova. Of course Butler is the last non football school to make to the championship game. There have been teams that have knocked on the door of the final four.

If say over the next 15 years we have a few FF appearances that would be epic. Maybe even one. There is evidence that it is tough, but not entirely unattainable.


We are better positioned to achieve all of that now that we are in the Big East. If it is going to be about being a Buick, that may not be all that bad moving forward: the Buick Avenir.

http://www.buick.com/avenir-concept-vehicle.html?seo=goo_%7C_%5Baccount+name%5D_%7C_GM NA%7CUS%7CBUI%7CGOOG%7CS%7CBD%7CA%7CBMM%7CAWR%7CAV N%7CLCR%7C%28null%29%7C%28null%29%7C_%7C_Model+Ove rview_%7C_%2Bnew%20%2Bbuick%20%2Bconcept%20%2Bcar

[DC Muskie]

We are better positioned to achieve all of that now that we are in the Big East. If it is going to be about being a Buick, that may not be all that bad moving forward: the Buick Avenir.

http://www.buick.com/avenir-concept-vehicle.html?seo=goo_%7C_%5Baccount+name%5D_%7C_GM NA%7CUS%7CBUI%7CGOOG%7CS%7CBD%7CA%7CBMM%7CAWR%7CAV N%7CLCR%7C%28null%29%7C%28null%29%7C_%7C_Model+Ove rview_%7C_%2Bnew%20%2Bbuick%20%2Bconcept%20%2Bcar

That's a difficult argument to make when you look at George Mason, VCU, and Butler recently.

I think we are better positioned to be more of a top 25 team by being in this conference, but we have to win to do that.

I do like the new Buicks as well.

[xudash]

That's a difficult argument to make when you look at George Mason, VCU, and Butler recently.

I think we are better positioned to be more of a top 25 team by being in this conference, but we have to win to do that.

I do like the new Buicks as well.

Not really. I'm not arguing that it cannot be done from, shall we call it lesser positioning. We all know that it is possible to pull that off. You provided the obvious examples of that.

All I'm trying to point out is that we used to cite our conference affiliation as being the last thing that was holding us back as a program. We have fixed the conference affiliation issue by becoming a member of the Big East. I guess in his heart of hearts, Sean Miller didn't think that he could get it done at a Xavier program based in the Atlantic 10. Maybe he would not of felt much differently at that time had we been in our current arrangement.

I just happen to believe that we have stepped up by stepping up into the Big East. I believe our recruiting already reflects that. The money, the television exposure, the schools with which we are now affiliated all point to a stronger position for Xavier's program.

We have to take all this and combine it with some of the other points you made in this thread and we will position ourselves for a legitimate chance at the national championship; we will position ourselves for the great success we believe this program can achieve.

[D-West & PO-Z]

So...serious question...

Isn't it too early to be disappointed by a team that hasn't finished its season yet?

Not on this board. Dont you know that 3 years ago our sweet 16 season was a bad year because we were a "bubble team"???

Edit: We can be disappointed in a regular season but I think we should let the tourney play out before we talk about the season as a whole. It is also frustrating to hear people talk about 3 years ago being a down year and including it in the 4 year stretch of disappointment people keep talking about. Well plus we beat Lehigh to get to the Sweet 16 so it doesnt count as much. Right?

[Fireball]

Not on this board. Dont you know that 3 years ago our sweet 16 season was a bad year because we were a "bubble team"???

Edit: We can be disappointed in a regular season but I think we should let the tourney play out before we talk about the season as a whole. It is also frustrating to hear people talk about 3 years ago being a down year and including it in the 4 year stretch of disappointment people keep talking about. Well plus we beat Lehigh to get to the Sweet 16 so it doesnt count as much. Right?

And that is exactly the point that I was trying to make. In maybe our most successful season ever, we would not have made the tournament in the year of "THE RUN" had we not had everything go right for us against the #1 team in the country.

My point is the the season is far from over, and the cloud that seems to be hanging over this board right now defies reason. I thought the regular season would be better, but that's over....and it has put us in a position to be damn near a lock into the NCAA tournament. Call me for my thoughts on the season after it's over. Seems like people are dying to call this team a failure before the most important part of it has played out.

[mohr5150]

I'm not sold on the talent level of this team, especially in the upper classes. Stain is a solid center but with some major defensive shortcomings. I think everyone knows my opinion of Dee. I watch all these other games with their quick guards who can easily blow past their defenders and get to the hoop under control, like Semaj, and I miss that as does this team. Our juniors aren't that good, either. Remy is okay, and Farr...well, role player is all that could ever be expected out of him. Now, our sophmores and freshmen are good, but need more seasoning to be consistent. I believe Mack got exactly what he could out of this team. There may be some blue colored glasses being worn by some posters on here. It's tough to win when a team loses a senior last year, two seniors this year, and a junior this year who were all the most talented of their classes.

[UCGRAD4X]

My point is the the season is far from over, and the cloud that seems to be hanging over this board right now defies reason. I thought the regular season would be better, but that's over....and it has put us in a position to be damn near a lock into the NCAA tournament. Call me for my thoughts on the season after it's over. Seems like people are dying to call this team a failure before the most important part of it has played out.

A+

This is the time of year many of us wait all year for. The tenor of the post makes it sound like we are not even participating. Granted, the inconsistency of not only the team in general but of individual players, makes it difficult to imagine a great run all-of-a-sudden, but isn't that what makes this time of year so great?

When I think of the wide swings in player performance (how many players have had incredible games and then disappeared?) the take-away for me is; they have shown they are capable because, well, they had those incredible games in the first place. Sooner or later they are going to have the great games more often individually and more often at the same time.

Now is the time.

Why not?

It is going to be fun to watch and find out.

I LOVE THIS TIME OF YEAR!

[xu82]

It bothers me that 25% of our loses were in OT or double OT (without a single OT win). There were also several very close losses (by 3 or less). We need that guy who won't let that happen. (I know, we had some close wins too, but 0-3 in those OT games kills me!) Someone has to step up and be that guy, and there's no need to wait until next year! Myles comes and goes, but in general he's waaay ahead of last year. It's usually a guard, and he has a fire to him. Dee can't play like he did against UC on a nightly basis... I miss Tu!

[markchal]

And that is exactly the point that I was trying to make. In maybe our most successful season ever, we would not have made the tournament in the year of "THE RUN" had we not had everything go right for us against the #1 team in the country.

My point is the the season is far from over, and the cloud that seems to be hanging over this board right now defies reason. I thought the regular season would be better, but that's over....and it has put us in a position to be damn near a lock into the NCAA tournament. Call me for my thoughts on the season after it's over. Seems like people are dying to call this team a failure before the most important part of it has played out.

The difference with the run is that team was playing their best ball at the end of the season. As others have said, we haven't seen that lately. We don't seem much better than the start of the season.

Also, it's so lame to call Mack's fifth year a transition one. If it is, it's his fault, it's not like he just took over. Also, Semaj was never a player that was expected to stay four years and he kicked Cheeks and Martin out (how often did Miller do that to a fifth-year major contributor?), so really the only tough one was Dez and that was long enough ago to not matter now.

[GoMuskies]

Not on this board. Dont you know that 3 years ago our sweet 16 season was a bad year because we were a "bubble team"???

All's well that ends well, of course, but if the only thing you remember about that season is that we ended up in the Sweet 16, I congratulate you on the impressive case of selective memory. From the Shootout on, that season was a mess.

[D-West & PO-Z]

All's well that ends well, of course, but if the only thing you remember about that season is that we ended up in the Sweet 16, I congratulate you on the impressive case of selective memory. From the Shootout on, that season was a mess.

Yeah I remember but when looking back 3 years ago when referring to Mack's track record I like to look at his coaching that season as a success as he guided our team to the Sweet 16. A lot of posters choose instead to focus on us being a 10 seed and being near the bubble and saying we are on our 4th mediocre season. The facts are we have had two rough seasons in a row and this season is yet to be played out. The dramatic posters like to shout "4 years of mediocrity!!".

[X-Fan]

The difference with the run is that team was playing their best ball at the end of the season. As others have said, we haven't seen that lately. We don't seem much better than the start of the season.

Also, it's so lame to call Mack's fifth year a transition one. If it is, it's his fault, it's not like he just took over. Also, Semaj was never a player that was expected to stay four years and he kicked Cheeks and Martin out (how often did Miller do that to a fifth-year major contributor?), so really the only tough one was Dez and that was long enough ago to not matter now.
I never said the roster issues weren't on Mack. He obviously felt X was better off without Cheeks & Justin. And Dez was long enough ago that it doesn't matred now? I guess I see what you are saying, but I'd sure love to have Dez leading X instead of a ranked Maryland team this year. Why does Mack being in his 5th year make the possibility of a transition period lame? You see they made this change to a new conference over a year ago. You might of heard about it as it was sort of a big deal. In one sense you can say they handled the transition pretty good. If all goes well this week, making they Tourney both years. Even if you view it as a failure, I'm not sure how it would be a surprise (or within the realm of comprehension) with they roster flux that has been mentioned.

Look, I get it. The majority of us (myself included) mainly care about results. Get it done, or be gone. However I'm a realist. Things don't always go to plan. What's important is long term and sustained success for the program. If I didn't think X was positioning themselves for big things in the near future, I'd be pissed. I like the talent on this team, and I love that we have a SOLID group back next year. Let's see what the guys have left this year before we call it a disappointment. Either way, I believe coach is doing what's necessary to position X for a very bright future.

[Emp]

We're the sixth best team in the second best conference. In our second year. We've got impressive returners everywhere. We,re anxious about the point next year. I'm pleased. Any rational mind would be pleased with it's a season like that.

Expectations of easy greatness venture on hubris. Our team made a game of it darn near every time out. No one takes us lightly. I think we play pretty smart with the talent we got. No one has a perfect possession every time. It's the nature of the randomness of talent, aptitude, and things beyond control, including the other team shooting the lights out.
I don't like losing, but the disappointment, no, venom , when we lose a game we're "supposed to win', the crazy batshit flies, here, everywhere.

Dealing with loss and persevering, as a player and as a supporter, is just the "tax" for the pleasure of following a team. Dealing with it and moving on is healthier, happier.

[markchal]

I never said the roster issues weren't on Mack. He obviously felt X was better off without Cheeks & Justin. And Dez was long enough ago that it doesn't matred now? I guess I see what you are saying, but I'd sure love to have Dez leading X instead of a ranked Maryland team this year. Why does Mack being in his 5th year make the possibility of a transition period lame? You see they made this change to a new conference over a year ago. You might of heard about it as it was sort of a big deal. In one sense you can say they handled the transition pretty good. If all goes well this week, making they Tourney both years. Even if you view it as a failure, I'm not sure how it would be a surprise (or within the realm of comprehension) with they roster flux that has been mentioned.

Look, I get it. The majority of us (myself included) mainly care about results. Get it done, or be gone. However I'm a realist. Things don't always go to plan. What's important is long term and sustained success for the program. If I didn't think X was positioning themselves for big things in the near future, I'd be pissed. I like the talent on this team, and I love that we have a SOLID group back next year. Let's see what the guys have left this year before we call it a disappointment. Either way, I believe coach is doing what's necessary to position X for a very bright future.

I think the major thing we disagree on is how much of a transition it really was. It looks like Butler and Creighton were able to make it pretty quickly. It's not like this is the old Big East, and I'm not quite sure why some people think it's such a huge jump. I would definitely put our arena and our recent track record in March up against most of the teams in the conference (Nova excluded). I think I would also be more forgiving about our finishes if I felt like we were playing our best ball at the end of the year, and could feel like we had made some progress.

I do agree that our underclassmen seem to be the heart and soul of the team and I definitely feel more positive about the future than I did after the last two years, but I still have some major questions about Mack (and some of the things he's said in postgame interviews this year have been more puzzling than any year prior), and I think he's spinning his wheels a bit as a coach.

[Masterofreality]

Dealing with loss and persevering, as a player and as a supporter, is just the "tax" for the pleasure of following a team. Dealing with it and moving on and IMPROVINGis healthier, happier.

Fixed that for you, Brother. :biggrin:

[markchal]

Dealing with loss and persevering, as a player and as a supporter, is just the "tax" for the pleasure of following a team. Dealing with it and moving on is healthier, happier.

I don't think underachieving this year is causing anyone to jump off the bandwagon and the program would not be where it is today if fans didn't have high standards and expectations.

[D-West & PO-Z]

I think the major thing we disagree on is how much of a transition it really was. It looks like Butler and Creighton were able to make it pretty quickly. It's not like this is the old Big East, and I'm not quite sure why some people think it's such a huge jump. I would definitely put our arena and our recent track record in March up against most of the teams in the conference (Nova excluded). I think I would also be more forgiving about our finishes if I felt like we were playing our best ball at the end of the year, and could feel like we had made some progress.


Butler was horrible last year and didnt make the tournament. Creighton had the best player in the country and was really good last year but is now last in the conference and is going to miss the tournament. Of the 3 programs that joined the 7 old teams we are the only one who will be in the tournament both years.

[D-West & PO-Z]

Since "the new big east" formed there will only be 3 BE teams who have made the tournament both years: Providence, Villanova, and XU.

Hopefully we take a step forward and get a win or two but if not I think things are looking good to take a step forward next year.

[bleedXblue]

Butler was horrible last year and didnt make the tournament. Creighton had the best player in the country and was really good last year but is now last in the conference and is going to miss the tournament. Of the 3 programs that joined the 7 old teams we are the only one who will be in the tournament both years.

Barely getting into the tourney is not where this program should be after 6 years of Mack. I'm not nearly as optimistic about next year as some. We have a huge deficit in athleticism at almost every position. Sure hope London, Gates and Sumner can make a big impact. A JUCO Or 5th year transfer would be great if we found the right PG or SF that could make an immediate impact.

[X-Fan]

I do agree that our underclassmen seem to be the heart and soul of the team and I definitely feel more positive about the future than I did after the last two years, but I still have some major questions about Mack (and some of the things he's said in postgame interviews this year have been more puzzling than any year prior), and I think he's spinning his wheels a bit as a coach.
I'm not totally there but I'm getting close. In one sense, you have to have the players. Watching X vs STJ this year, X looked so much less athletic. Then they did a much better job at STJ (in a loss). Was it effort? How can these guys consistently be lacking effort? Youth? Coaching? Both?

We are used to Miller squeezing every ounce of potential out of each team. Teams got better as the season progressed. The last few years that was not the case. Maybe they A10 made it easy to build confidence and improve (even though the road games were very difficult), maybe Mack is not getting through or making the right adjustments. I have faith with more talent (his guys) that we'll see teams "get it" on both sides of the ball. From what I can see Mack wants to emulate the 2008 team. Great Man to Man D, with fantastic balance on O. I'd be ok with that.

[D-West & PO-Z]

Barely getting into the tourney is not where this program should be after 6 years of Mack. I'm not nearly as optimistic about next year as some. We have a huge deficit in athleticism at almost every position. Sure hope London, Gates and Sumner can make a big impact. A JUCO Or 5th year transfer would be great if we found the right PG or SF that could make an immediate impact.

That really wasnt what we were discussing. My post was in reply to a poster who stated Butler and Creighton made a smooth easy transition to the BE, or at least a better transition than us. That is just factually incorrect. What is better making tourney 2/2 years or 1/2?

[Xu Red Dogg]

I know some posters will get mad that I bring up a stat that doesn't compare us to Duke or the Lakers, but to D-West's & PO-Z point above:

Regular Season BIG EAST Wins in the Last 2 Years:
Xavier - 19
Creighton - 18
Butler - 16

Tournament Byes
Xavier - 2
Creighton - 1
Butler - 1

NCAA Bids (Likely)
Xavier - 2
Creighton - 1
Butler - 1

[markchal]

That really wasnt what we were discussing. My post was in reply to a poster who stated Butler and Creighton made a smooth easy transition to the BE, or at least a better transition than us. That is just factually incorrect. What is better making tourney 2/2 years or 1/2?

Butler was decimated after Stevens left (thanks for Blueitt!), yet they were able to recover from not only him leaving, but their replacement coach having a breakdown. They have far more excuses than us to suck and they finished in the top 25 this year. They are trending up, and we aren't exactly (although let's be real, I would never trade places with them in a million years because they might be in a slightly better position right now).

[D-West & PO-Z]

Butler was decimated after Stevens left (thanks for Blueitt!), yet they were able to recover from not only him leaving, but their replacement coach having a breakdown. They have far more excuses than us to suck and they finished in the top 25 this year. They are trending up, and we aren't exactly (although let's be real, I would never trade places with them in a million years because they might be in a slightly better position right now).

We had a better year this year than last. We will see if we do better in the tournament. I expect a better year next year too. I think we are trending up. Either way we are 2 for 2, Creighton and Butler are 1 for 2, they have not done better transitioning to the Big East.

[markchal]

How exactly are we better this year? We finished sixth this year, and third last year.

[markchal]

Either way, we're getting off topic. I think people giving Mack a pass because of the conference should have more respect in where we were before joining the BE, we really weren't as far off as some think.

[xudash]

How exactly are we better this year? We finished sixth this year, and third last year.

And what was the conference rank last year versus it's ranking this year? Beyond that, we ended up in the play in game last year. It does not appear as though we will end up in the PIG this year; we will have better seeding this year.

[D-West & PO-Z]

How exactly are we better this year? We finished sixth this year, and third last year.

That is a really dense way of looking at it. If you dont think we had a better year this year than last than there isnt really much more to discuss.

Edit:

Just to throw some numbers out there:
Our RPI is higher
We have 2 more top 25 wins
2 more top 50 wins
Had 1 more road win
Wont have to play in the first four game and most likely have a better seed.

[X-Fan]

Either way, we're getting off topic. I think people giving Mack a pass because of the conference should have more respect in where we were before joining the BE, we really weren't as far off as some think.
Yes, in 2012 we were not far off at all. Then we got neutered, Cheeks left, Dez got the boot, various recruits didn't work out, and X was left with the 2013 team. Should Mack have protected X from that? Absolutely. IMO, Mack "reached" too often with recruits initially. It seems like he's found his groove, and being in the Big East certainly has assisted with that. Again, I acknowledge the step back. I don't like it, but it's semi acceptable because we stepped up to the Big East. If we are still in the A10, I'm losing my $hit. If we didn't have a lot of talent coming back/in next year, I'm losing my $hit. We need to see a clear step forward next year, and I think we will.

[xudash]

Yes, in 2012 we were not far off at all. Then we got neutered, Cheeks left, Dez got the boot, various recruits didn't work out, and X was left with the 2013 team. Should Mack have protected X from that? Absolutely. IMO, Mack "reached" too often with recruits initially. It seems like he's found his groove, and being in the Big East certainly has assisted with that. Again, I acknowledge the step back. I don't like it, but it's semi acceptable because we stepped up to the Big East. If we are still in the A10, I'm losing my $hit. If we didn't have a lot of talent coming back/in next year, I'm losing my $hit. We need to see a clear step forward next year, and I think we will.

Thanks for your recent posts. Excellent stuff.

EMP as well.

[D-West & PO-Z]

Yes, in 2012 we were not far off at all. Then we got neutered, Cheeks left, Dez got the boot, various recruits didn't work out, and X was left with the 2013 team. Should Mack have protected X from that? Absolutely. IMO, Mack "reached" too often with recruits initially. It seems like he's found his groove, and being in the Big East certainly has assisted with that. Again, I acknowledge the step back. I don't like it, but it's semi acceptable because we stepped up to the Big East. If we are still in the A10, I'm losing my $hit. If we didn't have a lot of talent coming back/in next year, I'm losing my $hit. We need to see a clear step forward next year, and I think we will.

My thoughts as well. Next year will be a big year determining where we are and where we are going.

[LadyMuskie]

If threads could be won, DC would win another award for this thread. Complete domination - just like old school Xavier.

[DC Muskie]

Seems like people are dying to call this team a failure before the most important part of it has played out.

I don't see anyone dying to call this season a failure. That's a complete projection on your part. The original post of this thread was discussing how we ended up where we wanted to be in the tournament. If that's your criteria then yes, as mentioned before, you would be happy with that. But let's not celebrate finishing sixth with a must win to reach .500 in conference play, especially since we are playing in the big bad BE.

Speaking of which...


We're the sixth best team in the second best conference. In our second year. We've got impressive returners everywhere. We,re anxious about the point next year. I'm pleased. Any rational mind would be pleased with it's a season like that.

Expectations of easy greatness venture on hubris. Our team made a game of it darn near every time out. No one takes us lightly. I think we play pretty smart with the talent we got. No one has a perfect possession every time. It's the nature of the randomness of talent, aptitude, and things beyond control, including the other team shooting the lights out.
I don't like losing, but the disappointment, no, venom , when we lose a game we're "supposed to win', the crazy batshit flies, here, everywhere.

Dealing with loss and persevering, as a player and as a supporter, is just the "tax" for the pleasure of following a team. Dealing with it and moving on is healthier, happier.

This is such utter nonsense and bullshit.

There is certainly a place for common sense and realistic disappointment in how a team performs. This isn't some one sided relationship where fans are to sit silently on the sidelines and accept the outcomes from a team that hustles. Which this team did not do night in and night out.

Again it's this same silliness that you and Dogg, and other have that this is a process. Davidson made the jump to the A10 and won it. Butler has jumped to two different conferences and have competed for top seeds in both.

Great we finished 6th in the 2nd best conference. That looks like an 8th seed at best, or 11 seed at worst. However expecting us to be better is not some sort of non enjoyable journey that can only be cured with acceptance and rationalization.

I wonder how you feel when QPR gets relegated once more.


I know some posters will get mad that I bring up a stat that doesn't compare us to Duke or the Lakers, but to D-West's & PO-Z point above:

Regular Season BIG EAST Wins in the Last 2 Years:
Xavier - 19
Creighton - 18
Butler - 16

Tournament Byes
Xavier - 2
Creighton - 1
Butler - 1

NCAA Bids (Likely)
Xavier - 2
Creighton - 1
Butler - 1

Regular Season BIG East wins the last two years:
Villanova: 32
Providence: 21
Georgetown: 20
Xavier: 19

Tournament Byes:
Villanova:2
Providence: 2
Xavier: 2
Georgetown: 1

NCAA Bids:
Villanova: 2
Providence: 2
Xavier:2
Georgetown:1

Contention for a Regular Season BE title in Februrary:
Villanova: 2
Providence: 2
Georgetown: 1
Butler: 1
Creighton:1
Xavier: 0

Sorry if these stats simply confirm that we are the Washington Wizards of college basketball. Would hate to be Duke or Lakers, or anyone worthy of notice.

[DC Muskie]

That is a really dense way of looking at it. If you dont think we had a better year this year than last than there isnt really much more to discuss.

Edit:

Just to throw some numbers out there:
Our RPI is higher
We have 2 more top 25 wins
2 more top 50 wins
Had 1 more road win
Wont have to play in the first four game and most likely have a better seed.

Does this mean you don't care for competing for regular season conference titles?

When did we stop caring about winning titles? Was there a memo that was sent out, where we look at seasons being better because our RPI numbers look good?

We finished with a worse conference record and as a result a worse finish in the conference standings.

[D-West & PO-Z]

Does this mean you don't care for competing for regular season conference titles?

When did we stop caring about winning titles? Was there a memo that was sent out, where we look at seasons being better because our RPI numbers look good?

We finished with a worse conference record and as a result a worse finish in the conference standings.

No one said that DC, that's a complete projection on your part.

This was a better year than last year. Not significantly better but better and we will get a better seed in the tournament because of it. Our league was significantly better overall than last year. Just because we finished 6th instead of 4th doesnt mean we did worse, to only look at it that way would take it completely out of context.

I want XU to compete for conference championships, it hasnt happened yet in the BE but the two seasons havent been total failures. Next year I expect big things.

[DC Muskie]

No one said that DC, that's a complete projection on your part.

This was a better year than last year. Not significantly better but better and we will get a better seed in the tournament because of it. Our league was significantly better overall than last year. Just because we finished 6th instead of 4th doesnt mean we did worse, to only look at it that way would take it completely out of context.

I want XU to compete for conference championships, it hasnt happened yet in the BE but the two seasons havent been total failures. Next year I expect big things.

I asked a question, I wasn't projecting anything.

The BE was better this year. At best we remained the same. We had a worse road record. Three other teams were able to improve their position this year over last. So far we have won 19 games and it will take two more wins just to reach last year's total. If we do that, we have matched what we did last year.

Sorry but that doesn't look like improvement, especially compared to other teams in our league that clearly did.

[sirthought]

While I find the progress and play of a lot of the team frustrating, I don't really want to tell these college kids that a season with 19 wins is a disappointment.

I still question if they actually deserve to be invited to the NCAA tournament. But they've achieved some great things as individuals and as a group. Maybe it just hasn't been enough to be the great collective we think they can be.

As a huge fan of both Xavier and UC basketball, I find much of the conversation here really humorous. During so many recent years when UC was at .500 in the Big East, with arguably a tougher slate, members of this board slammed them as not achieving anything. The Big East was, and continues to be, a really tough league to win in. It's my view that in UC's rebuilding process they had some incredibly weak teams, but at the same time they fought and got some wins they deserved (and some they didn't). If you win .500 in the Big East you still have a team that's done something good. (Yeah, I know that will be slammed.)

Xavier's season has been a lot like that this year. With the amount of underclassmen, you can't demand greatness right away. You should certainly expect it, because that's part of the fun of being a fan. But if these kids stumble, even with the great potential they have, it can't be scorned so badly.

If we were DePaul with season after season of disappointment I'd be singing a different tune. But these guys really battled some great games. And the season's story isn't done yet. Bring on Butler!

[D-West & PO-Z]

I asked a question, I wasn't projecting anything.

The BE was better this year. At best we remained the same. We had a worse road record. Three other teams were able to improve their position this year over last. So far we have won 19 games and it will take two more wins just to reach last year's total. If we do that, we have matched what we did last year.

Sorry but that doesn't look like improvement, especially compared to other teams in our league that clearly did.

I didnt bold the right part. You asked a rhetorical question about when did we stop caring about winning titles as if someone said that. You were projecting. No one said that at all. Is it your opinion that if we get a 10 seed or better and we had more good wins this year and our overall profile was better, that we didnt have a better year? The only things that you can look to to see if we had a better year is record?

[DC Muskie]

While I find the progress and play of a lot of the team frustrating, I don't really want to tell these college kids that a season with 19 wins is a disappointment.

I still question if they actually deserve to be invited to the NCAA tournament.

Here's a quick list of teams that have 19 wins this season:

Pittsburgh
Illinois
Indiana
James Madison
Winthrop
Texas
Western Kentucky
Bowling Green
Toledo
Vanderbilt

NJ Tech has 18 wins.

It's disappointing to be here. It's not a failure and the kids shouldn't be shunned, but I think it's okay to say, "Yeah, going 3-6 on the road, and finishing 6th in the conference is a little disappointing."

Maybe UCLA fans are happy with their 19 wins.

[XUFan09]

Although I share your general sentiments, DC, it's a bit unfair to compare Xavier's 19 wins to others when Xavier easily has the best SOS of that group.

Still, I think Xavier should have had 21 wins this season, not 19. Hopefully, they make up for that in the tournament.

[DC Muskie]

I didnt bold the right part. You asked a rhetorical question about when did we stop caring about winning titles as if someone said that. You were projecting. No one said that at all. Is it your opinion that if we get a 10 seed or better and we had more good wins this year and our overall profile was better, that we didnt have a better year? The only things that you can look to to see if we had a better year is record?

I like winning titles, or at least competing for them. I know it sounds crazy, but I do happen to look at records, because they sort of indicate how you did during the season. 3-6 conference road record is worse than last year. 9-9 overall conference record is worse than last year. 19 wins at the end of the regular season is worse than last year.

I don't think getting a higher seed in the tournament simply because other teams improved on their previous season means we were better especially since we went 3-3 against those teams.

So since winning a title or at least competing for one is important, how do you dismiss the idea of finishing further away from that objective as being better than the year before? Without resorting to computer projections.

[D-West & PO-Z]

I asked a question, I wasn't projecting anything.

The BE was better this year. At best we remained the same. We had a worse road record. Three other teams were able to improve their position this year over last. So far we have won 19 games and it will take two more wins just to reach last year's total. If we do that, we have matched what we did last year.

Sorry but that doesn't look like improvement, especially compared to other teams in our league that clearly did.

No we didnt.

5 wins on the road this year
4 wins on the road last year.

[sirthought]

Yeah, it's disappointing to not win it all (or get closer). The season overall isn't a disappointment, to me. I wouldn't shame any of those other team, either. They just didn't get as far as EVERYONE wants to get.

Lots of worse things in the world. These guys work hard and are still learning.

[D-West & PO-Z]

Although I share your general sentiments, DC, it's a bit unfair to compare Xavier's 19 wins to others when Xavier easily has the best SOS of that group.

Still, I think Xavier should have had 21 wins this season, not 19. Hopefully, they make up for that in the tournament.

It's not unfair it's absurd. Only Texas has a tougher SOS on that list, most arent even close.

XU should have won a couple games this year that they didnt. Sucks that they blew a couple games. But the argument that those teams have 19 wins so XU's 19 arent impressive at all is ridiculous. There are much better arguments as to why its disappointing or not impressive that XU only has 19 wins. Poor effort there DC.

[DC Muskie]

Although I share your general sentiments, DC, it's a bit unfair to compare Xavier's 19 wins to others when Xavier easily has the best SOS of that group.

Still, I think Xavier should have had 21 wins this season, not 19. Hopefully, they make up for that in the tournament.

Oh I completely agree with the idea that our 19 wins are better than say Vandy's 19 wins. But we used to brag about how many seasons we won 20 games a year. We could in theory finish the year with only 19 wins and that gives us two out of the last three years we didn't win 20 when we did that 8 out of the 9 years before 2012.

This leads to the idea that drives me nuts about being in the BE. It's too tough! Well why can't we expect to finish the regular season with at least 20 wins? Why do we have to lower our expectations?

I'm projecting now.

[DC Muskie]

No we didnt.

5 wins on the road this year
4 wins on the road last year.

What? We went 4-5 on the road last year, 3-6 this year.

[D-West & PO-Z]

I like winning titles, or at least competing for them. I know it sounds crazy, but I do happen to look at records, because they sort of indicate how you did during the season. 3-6 conference road record is worse than last year. 9-9 overall conference record is worse than last year. 19 wins at the end of the regular season is worse than last year.

I don't think getting a higher seed in the tournament simply because other teams improved on their previous season means we were better especially since we went 3-3 against those teams.

So since winning a title or at least competing for one is important, how do you dismiss the idea of finishing further away from that objective as being better than the year before? Without resorting to computer projections.

It is hard to take everything you are saying seriously when you are getting pretty basic facts wrong. Unless I am missing something our 3-6 road record in conference is not worse than last year.

[DC Muskie]

Lots of worse things in the world. These guys work hard and are still learning.

Well I guess I should remember there are people who are poor and homeless, so I guess I should accept guys learn and work hard on Xavier's basketball team.

Thanks for the prospective.

[D-West & PO-Z]

What? We went 4-5 on the road last year, 3-6 this year.

Those were overall road wins.

Last year we beat St. Johns, Butler, and Depaul in conference on the road and lost @ Creighton, Providence, Nova, Marquette, GT, and Seton Hall.

[DC Muskie]

Those were overall road wins.

Last year we beat St. Johns, Butler, and Depaul in conference on the road and lost @ Creighton, Providence, Nova, Marquette, GT, and Seton Hall.

My bad, I could have sworn we won at Seton Hall last year.

Now I'm even more depressed. Back to back seasons of 3-6 road records.

[DC Muskie]

It is hard to take everything you are saying seriously...

And never take anything I say seriously. Good rule of thumb.

[D-West & PO-Z]

I like winning titles, or at least competing for them. I know it sounds crazy, but I do happen to look at records, because they sort of indicate how you did during the season. 3-6 conference road record is worse than last year. 9-9 overall conference record is worse than last year. 19 wins at the end of the regular season is worse than last year.

I don't think getting a higher seed in the tournament simply because other teams improved on their previous season means we were better especially since we went 3-3 against those teams.

So since winning a title or at least competing for one is important, how do you dismiss the idea of finishing further away from that objective as being better than the year before? Without resorting to computer projections.

Winning and competing for conference championships is important but it isnt the end all be all of a successful season, especially since we are in a league they expects to get 4-7 bids in the tourney every year. And when the league is having a really good year I dont measure progress by having a better or worse conference record when the year before the league overall was much weaker. That just really doesnt make sense. If XU has a year with less conference wins but better overall wins and a better looking resume that results in a better NCAA tourney seed, then to me I can feel safe saying it was a better season.

And dont get me wrong this wasnt a way better season or significantly better but I feel better about this team going in to the tourney this year than I did lat year.

[D-West & PO-Z]

And never take anything I say seriously. Good rule of thumb.

Yeah, no worries, same here. Especially this late at night.

[D-West & PO-Z]

My bad, I could have sworn we won at Seton Hall last year.

Now I'm even more depressed. Back to back seasons of 3-6 road records.

Hey, at leats we won at 3 different teams this year. Now only @ Providence, Nova, and SH to go.

Only team not to beat anywhere is nova. That needs to change next year.

[DC Muskie]

Winning and competing for conference championships is important but it isnt the end all be all of a successful season, especially since we are in a league they expects to get 4-7 bids in the tourney every year. And when the league is having a really good year I dont measure progress by having a better or worse conference record when the year before the league overall was much weaker. That just really doesnt make sense. If XU has a year with less conference wins but better overall wins and a better looking resume that results in a better NCAA tourney seed, then to me I can feel safe saying it was a better season.

And dont get me wrong this wasnt a way better season or significantly better but I feel better about this team going in to the tourney this year than I did lat year.

Sorry this doesn't make sense.

The league gets better, we finish lower = good.

The league is weaker, we finish higher = good but not as good as the example above.

Why can't it be like this:

The league is weaker, we finish higher = good
The league gets better, we finish even higher = awesome

Frankly I want us to finish strong. I'm not sure this team can, or has the scorer in late game situations. It's funny, next year if we finish around where we finished this year, I will pass you and X-Fan in the expectation meter as we take opposite positions then the ones we have now.

[Fireball]

The difference with the run is that team was playing their best ball at the end of the season. As others have said, we haven't seen that lately. We don't seem much better than the start of the season.

No, not really. Two weeks before we beat #1 St. Joe's, we lost to Duquesne. At home. That's not exactly playing your best basketball.

Again, I loved that 2003 team. But that team was in a very similar spot to where this team is now...19 wins heading into the conference tournament.

[DC Muskie]

Hey, at leats we won at 3 different teams this year. Now only @ Providence, Nova, and SH to go.

Only team not to beat anywhere is nova. That needs to change next year.

I wish we would get to play Nova in the New Spectrum or whatever it is called now. The Pavilion is a hell of a place to play.

[GoMuskies]

We'll get Nova soon enough. They haven't been good like this for that long, and they won't stay this good forever.

[DC Muskie]

We'll get Nova soon enough. They haven't been good like this for that long, and they won't stay this good forever.

They've missed the tournament once in ten years. They have finished in the top 3 in conference play in half of those years.

I am hoping sooner rather than later, but Jay Wright has it going on.

[waggy]

I'd hope X could rise to where Nova is and compete with them. Not have them slide back so that we can.

[GoMuskies]

They've missed the tournament once in ten years.

That's impressive, but it certainly doesn't mean they've had teams we couldn't beat in most of those years. Making the Tournament and being a #1 or #2 seed are pretty different things.

[xudash]

Sorry this doesn't make sense.

The league gets better, we finish lower = good.

The league is weaker, we finish higher = good but not as good as the example above.

Why can't it be like this:

The league is weaker, we finish higher = good
The league gets better, we finish even higher = awesome

Frankly I want us to finish strong. I'm not sure this team can, or has the scorer in late game situations. It's funny, next year if we finish around where we finished this year, I will pass you and X-Fan in the expectation meter as we take opposite positions then the ones we have now.

This. In particular, the part about the league getting better and better with Xavier getting stronger and stronger to the point of excelling in it.

[wkrq59]

.."Friends Romans count..."No no wrong.
Er, how about "Carpe diem?" Carpe your own diem. No no, wrong.
OK. How about? "Beauty is in the eye...." No, no wrong.
I give up--"Murphy's law.." "Sh!t happens".."no,no,no, 12 times no would be a waste of space.
"Look on the bright side of life" Where's Eric Idle when you need him?... Well, maybe? ...Naw, let's stay negative and cynical.
AW HELL NO......
Let's face a few facts as well as some realistic givens. The givens first:
1. Few will ever be happy all the time.
2. Some never.
3. The happier some are, the more miserable others will be.
4. The sun doesn't shine on the same dog's ass every day.--Crusty woman in "Hoosiers."
Now the facts:
a)Xavier finished the 2014-15 regular scheduled basketball season with records of 19-12 and 9-9 Big East.
b)According to most experts???? Xavier is in the NCAA tournament, though who knows and what seed.
c)Last year a this time, Xavier lost a ( play-in game or 1st round, your choice of spin) in the NCAA. By now we're all familiar with the controversy over that.
d) Chris Mack, (despite all his alleged inabilities) is third on XU's all-time wins list with a record of 130-69 to date behind No. 1 Pete Gillen, 202-75, and Skip Prosser, 148-65. And the season isn't over.
e)There is plenty of talent at Xavier with two players graduating, two red-shirting, and one player signed.
Having watched and/or covered Xavier basketball teams for more than 50 years, I have seen the highs of our alma mater from the NIT champions back when it a big deal through the present day .
Coaches, I've seen a few: Ned Wulk, Big Jim McCafferty , Don Ruberg, George Krajack, Dick Campbell, Tay Baker, Bob Staak , Pete Gillen, Skip Prosser, Thad Matta, Sean Miller and Mack. A couple have better records (more wins than Chris but they were criticized almost as much as Chris.)
Comparisons are odious, but overall this Xavier team still has a good chance to be one of the best. Hey, when you've covered a 3-23 Xavier team and had the joys of working with the first "Sweet 16" team in 89-90 and the NIT champs of 57-58, you know the good, the great and the not-so-good. Despite some of the disappointments every team endures, this group of Musketeers still has a chance to be among the best ever. Just when, TBD.
Oh, and never forget, 76-53, 64-47 and 59-57. That's success.

[SpectorJersey]

Here's my thing...at the risk of repeating ad nauseum. (Forget the macro "program" stuff. Worry about the now.) And I am NOT trying to throw cold water on the win yesterday, but this is my concern:

The goal of Xavier basketball, and quite frankly ALL D1 teams, is to be playing your best basketball at the end of the year. Can anyone really say that this team is playing it's best ball of the year right now? We haven't won 3 in a row since mid December and are a couple of wide ass open 3's away from being in real trouble (SucKS and yesterday.) There have been flashes of improvement- Larry Austin Jr was a very bright spot yesterday- but a lot of the same old...same old...

We split with Creighton....barely. Comparison:
-Creighton shot 42% from 3 yesterday vs their season average of 34%. We still have a problem defending the arc.
-Creighton scored 73 points yesterday and worked the pick and roll at will. In Cincy they scored 65 in regulation and worked the pick and roll at will.
-Xavier won yesterday basically because our Free Throw Shooting Percentage defense was strong- 62% for Creighton vs their season average of 73.5. maybe the coaching staff improved the trash talking since last game? Other than that, the staff did little better to defend Creighton - 144 RPI Creighton.
-Thank Gawd they called a foul for Dee to go to the line, yesterday (Thanks Wally Rutecki, you made up for the horrible offensive foul you called on Stain late in the game when Artino flopped) just like Thank Gawd they called a foul to send Trevon to the line vs the Borecats. Does anyone have any confidence that this staff has an end game play up their sleeve to win? If so, we haven't seen it all year and I'm still waiting.
-The substitution patterns are still mystifying - like they throw datrts toward names then just throw them in the game.
-On CMack's radio show on Monday night, he was lamenting the missed "communication" on defense that allowed Villanova to get open 3's. Uh wait. This is the 5th month of practice and 30 games have gone by. "Maybe it's not communication, but a problem with the "system". This isn't Rocekt Scientry.
-Quite Frankly, Greg McDermott does not have anywhere near the talent that XU does, but his team sure looked like the better coached team. Xavier had 15 turnovers yesterday against a team that gave no pressure. Creighton only had 11. We made 1 more free throw-and that was the difference.

I will not criticize these players. They have busted their collective asses. This staff this year, however, has missed many, many detail things that really dialed in staffs get and see. No, the season is not over yet, but the same things happen game after game with no abatement.

No, I do not want Chris Mack to leave...I hope that this year is a learning experience, however. I know I was a much better coach every year that I kept doing it- and definitely became more flexible. I wish the same for this staff.

The pack line is designed for guys who arent great defenders. I think a better criticism of "try a new defense" is to not recruit a bunch of guys who are below average defenders. Its hard to have JP, Myles, and Trevon in the game at the same time. Everyone has their bad moments on defense but stainbrook kills us a lot of times bc he is so slow. The 1-3-1 works only on teams who arent great shooting teams. Our biggest challenge is when bigs can hit 3's bc of Stainbrook, it has been a problem for years including the Kenny years. I have been screaming for us to get a stretch 4 or 5 since Duncan graduated. Our best teams had those guys. We almost had one with Vezenkov (who is a projected 2nd round pick) and while Farr can hit a 3 every few weeks, teams love it when he shoots those.

Your hedging concerns are valid but looked what happened when we switched saturday, they got a lot of easy lay ups. The first game we hedged screens in the first half and they killed us. We need quicker more athletic players which is a criticism of the staff.

Creighton while not a great team is a bad matchup for us, we could not have scripted better matchups in the BE tournament although we could lose the 1st game easy.

[American X]

4. The sun doesn't shine on the same dog's ass every day.--Crusty woman in "Hoosiers."


Opal Fleener. 'Crusty' is harsh. She is just older, not necessarily 'crusty'.

[Masterofreality]

The pack line is designed for guys who arent great defenders. I think a better criticism of "try a new defense" is to not recruit a bunch of guys who are below average defenders. Its hard to have JP, Myles, and Trevon in the game at the same time. Everyone has their bad moments on defense but stainbrook kills us a lot of times bc he is so slow. The 1-3-1 works only on teams who arent great shooting teams. Our biggest challenge is when bigs can hit 3's bc of Stainbrook, it has been a problem for years including the Kenny years. I have been screaming for us to get a stretch 4 or 5 since Duncan graduated. Our best teams had those guys. We almost had one with Vezenkov (who is a projected 2nd round pick) and while Farr can hit a 3 every few weeks, teams love it when he shoots those.
.

Good comments, but I'm not even sure we're still playing "pack line". as for the "stretch 4" I believe that the staff thinks that Makinde London and probably Kaiser Gates can fill that role.

[paulxu]

Kaiser and his St Francis team just won their Georgia State league championship.