MACK is Prosser 2.0

[JTG]

Does it seem to anyone else that Mack is Prosser without the likeability factor. In both cases the teams are athletic and talented but unable to perform at crunch time. When they are all on, they are hell on wheels. But too often they go on stretches of unfocused play. Skip was a wonderful person but not a great coach. Macks teams remind me of the Prosser days. Sad to sad but Matta and Miller were both much better.

[Muskied]

Does it seem to anyone else that Mack is Prosser without the likeability factor. In both cases the teams are athletic and talented but unable to perform at crunch time. When they are all on, they are hell on wheels. But too often they go on stretches of unfocused play. Skip was a wonderful person but not a great coach. Macks teams remind me of the Prosser days. Sad to sad but Matta and Miller were both much better.

No

[nasdadjr]

Well I have to disagree with you on one level. I don't think this team is athletic. Stain is slow Myles Blueitt Macura all look like they have layers of baby fat on them and our entire bench looks undersized in terms of really needing to hit the weight room. Jalen Dee and Remy look like the only athletic type of players we have and I hesitate to say that about dee not because I question his athleticism but because I question his size.

[nasdadjr]

But let me also say that I think Macura Blueitt and Myles can and will all hit the workouts hard this offseason and look much better going into the next season. I know I am in the minority on this but give me really good development/project type guys over studs any day to build a team around. That is what Xavier did for a quarter century until the recruiting debacles of this decade blew that whole ship up. Lets hope Mack is starting that over with this class of kids and it can go back to what it was before the whole Dez wells, Mckenzie, latham, and so on mess ups.

[RealDeal]

What point is there to comparing Mack to 2 coaches that Xavier can't afford? I think this is the very definition of whining.

[Xu Red Dogg]

God rest Skip's soul, but here are a few things to consider:

Seasons:
Mack - 5
Prosser - 7

NCAA Tournament Wins:
Mack - 4
Prosser - 1

Sweet 16's:
Mack - 2
Prosser - 0

Conference:
Mack - A10 / BIG EAST
Prosser - A10 (very WEAK A10)

[RealDeal]

JP is fat? Where do people come up with this stuff?

[Xavier]

Does it seem to anyone else that Mack is Prosser without the likeability factor. In both cases the teams are athletic and talented but unable to perform at crunch time. When they are all on, they are hell on wheels. But too often they go on stretches of unfocused play. Skip was a wonderful person but not a great coach. Macks teams remind me of the Prosser days. Sad to sad but Matta and Miller were both much better.

Hell on wheels? Are we watching the same team?

[MADXSTER]

Does it seem to anyone else that Mack is Prosser without the likeability factor. In both cases the teams are athletic and talented but unable to perform at crunch time. When they are all on, they are hell on wheels. But too often they go on stretches of unfocused play. Skip was a wonderful person but not a great coach. Macks teams remind me of the Prosser days. Sad to sad but Matta and Miller were both much better.

no

[Wheelhouse]

This thread should go well. I look forward to reading page 43.

[nasdadjr]

I didn't say he is fat I said he looks like he has a layer of baby fat. It's the same thing as seeing someone who is anorexic and while they are skinny they also are not a good skinny if you get my point. Now don't blow me up and say I am calling JP anorexic I was just making an analogy. Basically I am saying JP needs to hit the weight room build up a little more muscle.

[RealDeal]

Macura all look like they have layers of baby fat on them

Idiotic. He's 6'5" 190. Just stop your "analysis."

[XU 87]

I didn't say he is fat I said he looks like he has a layer of baby fat. It's the same thing as seeing someone who is anorexic and while they are skinny they also are not a good skinny if you get my point. Now don't blow me up and say I am calling JP anorexic I was just making an analogy. Basically I am saying JP needs to hit the weight room build up a little more muscle.

"He's not fat He just has baby fat, which is not the same fat as regular fat."

(Macura's not fat nor has "baby fat", but he does need to get bigger and stronger, if that's what you were trying to say).

[nasdadjr]

Yes that is what I am trying to say look at his arms when he plays or even his legs there is no definition or bulge hence the comment which shouldn't be taken literally of it LOOKS like a layer of baby fat. I can't believe people take everything so damn literally. I can't imagine many high GRE scores with context reading so low. (I guess I should say that is a haha joke before someone gets on here and thinks I am actually demeaning someone's intelligence

[muskieindent]

2 Sweet 16's for Mack put him ahead of Skip.We seem to forget about that although I'm sure he won't get credit for those because he did it with Miller's recruits.I think Skip's teams underperformed a few years particularly in 1998(losing in the first round) and 1999 (not making it at all with Brown and Posey).The last 3 years do remind me of Skip's last few years.Inconsistent play and barely squeaking into the tournament.

[RealDeal]

Yes that is what I am trying to say look at his arms when he plays or even his legs there is no definition or bulge hence the comment which shouldn't be taken literally of it LOOKS like a layer of baby fat. I can't believe people take everything so damn literally. I can't imagine many high GRE scores with context reading so low. (I guess I should say that is a haha joke before someone gets on here and thinks I am actually demeaning someone's intelligence


Myles Blueitt Macura all look like they have layers of baby fat on them

Yeah, don't know what I was thinking, interpreting you saying these guys look like they have layers of baby fat as they look like they have layers of baby fat. I must have a "context reading issue."

Actually it's proof positive that I'm an idiot that I don't have you on ignore. But I would miss the unintentional comedy. So carry on.

[D-West & PO-Z]

2 Sweet 16's for Mack put him ahead of Skip.We seem to forget about that although I'm sure he won't get credit for those because he did it with Miller's recruits.I think Skip's teams underperformed a few years particularly in 1998(losing in the first round) and 1999 (not making it at all with Brown and Posey).The last 3 years do remind me of Skip's last few years.Inconsistent play and barely squeaking into the tournament.

Which would be funny considering Mack gets credit for his good recruiting and most take issue with his in game coaching.

Mack doesnt get nearly the credit he deserves for those Sweet 16 appearances.

Mack has his issues as a coach and over the next year or two we need to see better performances but he shouldnt be anywhere near the chopping block.

[THRILLHOUSE]

Yep, look at all that "baby fat"

http://www.gannett-cdn.com/-mm-/c15f5ecf0bd3bde46a12ccc2706f55ba55e7bbf1/c=0-54-2272-3083&r=537&c=0-0-534-712/local/-/media/Montgomery/2014/12/06/B9315403303Z.1_20141206233658_000_GSV9B9BAT.1-0.jpg

[Wheelhouse]

Which would be funny considering Mack gets credit for his good recruiting and most take issue with his in game coaching.

Mack doesnt get nearly the credit he deserves for those Sweet 16 appearances.

Mack has his issues as a coach and over the next year or two we need to see better performances but he shouldnt be anywhere near the chopping block.

I don't think he's on the chopping block (or near it, yet) and I give Mack credit for the first one, but that 2012 Sweet 16 was tremendously aided by 2-seed Duke losing to 15-seed Lehigh in round one. Not sure he would have coached us to the Sweet 16 up against Coach K. I'm not complaining as you just need to beat whoever is in front of you, but 2012 was an unusually lucky tournament draw for X.

[MADXSTER]

2 Sweet 16's for Mack put him ahead of Skip.We seem to forget about that although I'm sure he won't get credit for those because he did it with Miller's recruits.I think Skip's teams underperformed a few years particularly in 1998(losing in the first round) and 1999 (not making it at all with Brown and Posey).The last 3 years do remind me of Skip's last few years.Inconsistent play and barely squeaking into the tournament.

This is the first year in the last several that Xavier went into the season with 13 scholarship players eligible to play. I think Xavier over achieved last year.

[D-West & PO-Z]

I don't think he's on the chopping block (or near it, yet) and I give Mack credit for the first one, but that 2012 Sweet 16 was tremendously aided by 2-seed Duke losing to 15-seed Lehigh in round one. Not sure he would have coached us to the Sweet 16 up against Coach K. I'm not complaining as you just need to beat whoever is in front of you, but 2012 was an unusually lucky tournament draw for X.

No he definitely isnt but some think he should be.

As far as Lehigh beating Duke while its obviously an easier draw that team showed they had the ability and players to beat Duke which would obviously mean they had they players and ability to beat XU. They didnt though. When we get mentioned in having been to the Sweet 16 that year nobody but XU and Lehigh fans remember who we beat to get there.

[ammtd34]

I've never really understood that argument. "Well, it doesn't really count because they Duke (or whoever) lost the round before." We still had to play the team that beat Duke. It was a fair contest and Duke lost. We don't need to apologize for that.

[X-man]

Not a fan of Mack particularly, but he is head and shoulders better than Prosser as a coach. Not only that, he schedules way better in the non-con than Prosser ever did. That said, both Matta and Miller are much better coaches than Mack. Hopefully that will change.

[Wheelhouse]

I've never really understood that argument. "Well, it doesn't really count because they Duke (or whoever) lost the round before." We still had to play the team that beat Duke. It was a fair contest and Duke lost. We don't need to apologize for that.

I'm not asking the NCAA to put a asterisk next to the Sweet 16. And who said it doesn't count? I said facing Lehigh in the 2nd round was a very lucky draw. Are you really disputing that?

[Wheelhouse]

When we get mentioned in having been to the Sweet 16 that year nobody but XU and Lehigh fans remember who we beat to get there.

Side note, I actually am a Lehigh and Xavier fan, likely the only one in America. That game was actually miserable for me.

[nasdadjr]

yes real deal when you say something looks like that is not a statement of fact. at times Xavier LOOKS LIKE a top 25 team but that doesn't mean they are.

[RealDeal]

Yeah, don't know what I was thinking, interpreting you saying these guys look like they have layers of baby fat as they look like they have layers of baby fat. I must have a "context reading issue."

Actually it's proof positive that I'm an idiot that I don't have you on ignore. But I would miss the unintentional comedy. So carry on.

Read it again. "Context reading issue." You have very much.

[nasdadjr]

And I can post a pic where his arms look like they were drawn with a pencil lol. Really the point which goes back to my other post is that I do like the project players. I don't think you or anyone on here think that Bluiett JP and so on don't need some foot speed work as well as some time in the weightroom. Nothing wrong with that the only thing which goes back to the original post is that guys like JP and Myles and so on did that while waiting behind junior and senior leadership. Because of the disastrous recruiting classes Mack had our young players have to get better physically while trying to find a way to make the NCAA tournament. Last time it was like this was kinda with the doellman cage class so lets hope the result is the same but this time going slightly further.

[schmidy43]

I don't think he's on the chopping block (or near it, yet) and I give Mack credit for the first one, but that 2012 Sweet 16 was tremendously aided by 2-seed Duke losing to 15-seed Lehigh in round one. Not sure he would have coached us to the Sweet 16 up against Coach K. I'm not complaining as you just need to beat whoever is in front of you, but 2012 was an unusually lucky tournament draw for X.

The guards on that Duke team couldn't stop a nosebleed. Tu and Lyons would've destroyed them, just like McCollum from Lehigh did when he dropped 30 on them.

[nasdadjr]

Xavier never beats damn Duke. Now the history isn't exactly long but I don't think we can say Tu and Lyons would have definitively zipped em up. I was at that game sitting a couple rows from the floor and remember that Plumlee looked like he had the broadest shoulders I had ever scene. He looked like a giant compared to everyone on Lehigh. I turned to a UNC fan and asked him why Plumlee just didn't get the ball everytime. He looked at me and said cause Duke is stupid lol.

[XU 87]

Xavier never beats damn Duke. Now the history isn't exactly long but I don't think we can say Tu and Lyons would have definitively zipped em up. I was at that game sitting a couple rows from the floor and remember that Plumlee looked like he had the broadest shoulders I had ever scene. He looked like a giant compared to everyone on Lehigh. I turned to a UNC fan and asked him why Plumlee just didn't get the ball everytime. He looked at me and said cause Duke is stupid lol.

That Duke team would have struggled to stop Tu and Lyons. There's a reason McCollum scored 30.

[DC Muskie]

We beat the team that beat Duke, but we couldn't have beaten Duke ourselves.

Okay, that makes perfect sense.

[xubrew]

I don't think I've ever said this, but geez. What a great thread.

[XfansinKy]

We beat the team that beat Duke, but we couldn't have beaten Duke ourselves.

Okay, that makes perfect sense.
Wait... What? Maybe all these losses piling up are all part of a bigger plan? Maybe we have the greatest coach in X history but were to stupid to see the big picture? Its actually pretty ingenious when you stop n drink about it.:headscratch:

[DC Muskie]

Wait... What? Maybe all these losses piling up are all part of a bigger plan? Maybe we have the greatest coach in X history but were to stupid to see the big picture? Its actually pretty ingenious when you stop n drink about it.:headscratch:

What? I was talking about that specific tournament.

I like Mack. I don't love him, but I think he does something well. I also think he has some Prosser in him. I think we easily could have beaten Duke that year in the tournament as others have explained. I also think we have a ways to go to get back to where we were at the end of the Miller era. We are not that far. I just hope Chris can get it done.

[XfansinKy]

What? I was talking about that specific tournament.

I like Mack. I don't love him, but I think he does something well. I also think he has some Prosser in him. I think we easily could have beaten Duke that year in the tournament as others have explained. I also think we have a ways to go to get back to where we were at the end of the Miller era. We are not that far. I just hope Chris can get it done.
Nope wasn't taking a jab at you at all DC. Just apparently a poor attempt at humor on my part.( 3 drinks tonight)

[DC Muskie]

Nope wasn't taking a jab at you at all DC. Just apparently a poor attempt at humor on my part.( 3 drinks tonight)

This season has definitely depleted my rye supply. Totally understand.

[XMuskieFTW]

One thing Mack does that I like better than any other coach is his inbound plays from under the opponents basket. That counts for something right?

[muskieindent]

Let's not forget that 2 of Mack's best recruits were Dez and Semaj.How different things could have been.

[IM4X]

Not a fan of Mack particularly, but he is head and shoulders better than Prosser as a coach. Not only that, he schedules way better in the non-con than Prosser ever did. That said, both Matta and Miller are much better coaches than Mack. Hopefully that will change.

I don't know if he is capable of being at the level of Miller and Matta, but I keep hoping he will be smart enough to change where he needs to change in order to keep growing and making himself better. He needs to start by taking responsibility for his mistakes and his shortcomings. I have not seen enough of that yet. I don't expect him to be perfect, but I do expect him to recognize problems and get better and better at fixing them and admit the buck stops with him. That's when we'll know if he is the real deal.

[X Factor]

No way can you compare Mack to Prosser. Also, what did Matta do? Yes, an Elite Eight, but he had arguably the best overall shooting guard in X history (Sato), as well as a senior point guard who went on one of the hottest streaks in Xavier history towards the end of the year. He also had a very good senior center in Anthony Myles. Those three guys propelled X from UC game on through the NCAA tournament. Give credit to Matta though, that team played excellent defense. The year prior though, he took a 3 seed into the tournament and promptly got eliminated by Maryland in the 2nd round, and that team included David West.

Sean Miller coached Xavier in the A10. His teams laid some clunkers as we all know. His best team, '07-'08, was full of upperclassmen. Seniors Burrell and Lavender, juniors Duncan, Raymond, Love, and CJ Anderson.

The level of competition in the A10 doesn't compare to what Mack is facing night in and night out.

Are there areas Mack can improve and get the team to improve? Definitely, but remember, Derrick Brown left after his junior year (what would've been Mack's first year). Crawford left after one year, and Semaj left after 2 years, so Mack has had to deal with a lot of early departures and then the whole Dez Wells fiasco.

Matta and Miller never had to deal with early departures like that or having their best player kicked out of school.

Mack has been through a lot, and still has 2 sweet sixteens under his belt and 4 NCAA tournament appearances. He has X in a very good spot, and this team should be really good next year.

[DC Muskie]

No way can you compare Mack to Prosser. Also, what did Matta do? Yes, an Elite Eight, but he had arguably the best overall shooting guard in X history (Sato), as well as a senior point guard who went on one of the hottest streaks in Xavier history towards the end of the year. He also had a very good senior center in Anthony Myles. Those three guys propelled X from UC game on through the NCAA tournament. Give credit to Matta though, that team played excellent defense. The year prior though, he took a 3 seed into the tournament and promptly got eliminated by Maryland in the 2nd round, and that team included David West.

Sean Miller coached Xavier in the A10. His teams laid some clunkers as we all know. His best team, '07-'08, was full of upperclassmen. Seniors Burrell and Lavender, juniors Duncan, Raymond, Love, and CJ Anderson.

The level of competition in the A10 doesn't compare to what Mack is facing night in and night out.

Are there areas Mack can improve and get the team to improve? Definitely, but remember, Derrick Brown left after his junior year (what would've been Mack's first year). Crawford left after one year, and Semaj left after 2 years, so Mack has had to deal with a lot of early departures and then the whole Dez Wells fiasco.

Matta and Miller never had to deal with early departures like that or having their best player kicked out of school.

Mack has been through a lot, and still has 2 sweet sixteens under his belt and 4 NCAA tournament appearances. He has X in a very good spot, and this team should be really good next year.

I really hate the argument that somehow Matta was simply lucky, because that's how the first paragraph reads. He had arguably the best shooting guard in history and they got hot, so really what did he do? Oh but he had arguably the best player in Xavier history and look what he did.

It's an incredibly stupid argument to try and spin. He didn't do much when we were good, but was terrible when we should have been good. Okay, that makes sense.

We don't get into the BE without Matta and Miller. If Mack is going to be considered on their level he must improve. He will have to deal with more early departures, just like Matta and Miller experience at their current gigs, which I would remind you, are leagues that are better than the A10 and they seem to do well year in and year out.

Now if next rolls around and we finish around 5th or 6th, are we going to continue to look at the early departures, the tough conference, etc, or will we argue that we had a lot of talent and really what did Mack do?

Because if you are going to spin Matta's, and Miller's tenure here, then I would think you would have to spin Mack.

[boozehound]

Let's not forget that 2 of Mack's best recruits were Dez and Semaj.How different things could have been.

No kidding. I was just talking about that with my wife last night. I'm pretty confident that if Semaj had returned we would be a Top 25 team. Many of our losses were so close that it's not difficult to imagine him making the difference.

If we had Semaj and Wells... Wow.

[chico]

No way can you compare Mack to Prosser. Also, what did Matta do? Yes, an Elite Eight, but he had arguably the best overall shooting guard in X history (Sato), as well as a senior point guard who went on one of the hottest streaks in Xavier history towards the end of the year. He also had a very good senior center in Anthony Myles. Those three guys propelled X from UC game on through the NCAA tournament. Give credit to Matta though, that team played excellent defense. The year prior though, he took a 3 seed into the tournament and promptly got eliminated by Maryland in the 2nd round, and that team included David West.

Sean Miller coached Xavier in the A10. His teams laid some clunkers as we all know. His best team, '07-'08, was full of upperclassmen. Seniors Burrell and Lavender, juniors Duncan, Raymond, Love, and CJ Anderson.

The level of competition in the A10 doesn't compare to what Mack is facing night in and night out.

Are there areas Mack can improve and get the team to improve? Definitely, but remember, Derrick Brown left after his junior year (what would've been Mack's first year). Crawford left after one year, and Semaj left after 2 years, so Mack has had to deal with a lot of early departures and then the whole Dez Wells fiasco.

Matta and Miller never had to deal with early departures like that or having their best player kicked out of school.

Mack has been through a lot, and still has 2 sweet sixteens under his belt and 4 NCAA tournament appearances. He has X in a very good spot, and this team should be really good next year.

Revisionist history.

Matta was much better than you're giving him credit for. You really think The Run was just a couple players doing really well and had nothing to do with coaching? If you're going to say that, then Mack best no credit for Crawford carrying them to the Sweet 16. As for your point about David West - ever heard of Payton Manning? His Tennessee Volunteers won the National Championship the year after he left.

As for Miller, his only "clunkers" were the first year and a half of his tenure here. There's a reason Matta is at OSU and Miller is at Arizona. Those guys can coach. Let's not minimize what they did because we don't like that they left.

We all knew Christon was leaving after two years. Lloyd Christmas had a better chance of marrying "Mary Samsonite" than Semaj had of staying another year. That was the deal going in.

Mack has a lot of young talent on this team. I'm hopeful he can develop that talent and get this program moving forward again. The next couple years will tell us what kind of coach we have.

[LadyMuskie]

I really hate the argument that somehow Matta was simply lucky, because that's how the first paragraph reads. He had arguably the best shooting guard in history and they got hot, so really what did he do? Oh but he had arguably the best player in Xavier history and look what he did.

It's an incredibly stupid argument to try and spin. He didn't do much when we were good, but was terrible when we should have been good. Okay, that makes sense.

We don't get into the BE without Matta and Miller. If Mack is going to be considered on their level he must improve. He will have to deal with more early departures, just like Matta and Miller experience at their current gigs, which I would remind you, are leagues that are better than the A10 and they seem to do well year in and year out.

Now if next rolls around and we finish around 5th or 6th, are we going to continue to look at the early departures, the tough conference, etc, or will we argue that we had a lot of talent and really what did Mack do?

Because if you are going to spin Matta's, and Miller's tenure here, then I would think you would have to spin Mack.

I agree. I don't think Mack is as bad as some believe him to be, but arguments like that one - where the only way to build Mack up is to tear down Matta and Miller- are not useful in any way.

[gladdenguy]

No kidding. I was just talking about that with my wife last night. I'm pretty confident that if Semaj had returned we would be a Top 25 team. Many of our losses were so close that it's not difficult to imagine him making the difference.

If we had Semaj and Wells... Wow.

You are not allowed to talk about Dez. That is "sad and pathetic" according to a poster.
20 pts and 10 boards as that "pedestrian" top 10 Maryland team wins its 6th straight game.

[muethibp]

No kidding. I was just talking about that with my wife last night. I'm pretty confident that if Semaj had returned we would be a Top 25 team. Many of our losses were so close that it's not difficult to imagine him making the difference.

If we had Semaj and Wells... Wow.

There's no doubt that it's true that these teams would be better if Wells and Semaj had stayed. But doesn't Mack bear some responsibility for the fact that they're not here? Isn't it at least partially the coach's fault when one of his player's is kicked out of school? And don't you have to wonder about a situation where Semaj chooses to leave school to enter one of the deepest drafts in history so he can ride buses around the D-League? Can't you wonder if it was right to recruit both players as hard and the coach's management of the players in their time here that led to their early and unfortunate (in each case) departures?

[Xville]

You are not allowed to talk about Dez. That is "sad and pathetic" according to a poster.
20 pts and 10 boards as that "pedestrian" top 10 Maryland team wins its 6th straight game.

SHHHH!!!!! we aren't allowed to talk about former players or even mention the one who will remain unnamed.

[Xville]

There's no doubt that it's true that these teams would be better if Wells and Semaj had stayed. But doesn't Mack bear some responsibility for the fact that they're not here? Isn't it at least partially the coach's fault when one of his player's is kicked out of school? And don't you have to wonder about a situation where Semaj chooses to leave school to enter one of the deepest drafts in history so he can ride buses around the D-League? Can't you wonder if it was right to recruit both players as hard and the coach's management of the players in their time here that led to their early and unfortunate (in each case) departures?

There is no blame to put on Mack for the Dez situation...that was because of years of incompetence by the Xavier administration and Dez was an easy scapegoat for Xavier to say "look we are doing the right thing now...you can let your federal probe stop now"

[DC Muskie]

Yeah really shut up already. How hard is it to understand?

[D-West & PO-Z]

There's no doubt that it's true that these teams would be better if Wells and Semaj had stayed. But doesn't Mack bear some responsibility for the fact that they're not here? Isn't it at least partially the coach's fault when one of his player's is kicked out of school? And don't you have to wonder about a situation where Semaj chooses to leave school to enter one of the deepest drafts in history so he can ride buses around the D-League? Can't you wonder if it was right to recruit both players as hard and the coach's management of the players in their time here that led to their early and unfortunate (in each case) departures?

No.

Maybe if they transferred to different schools under more normal circumstances. But one went pro to make a lot of money and the other got kicked out of school for something that Mack would have no control over whatsoever. Not like he was skipping class and got bad grades.

[paulxu]

Let's not recruit a good player because he might leave after his second year?

Well, that sounds like a winning strategy.

[American X]

there is no definition or bulge

So you spend your time checking out the players' bulges?

[throwbackmuskie]

Disclaimer I was never a fan of Matta. He can recruit, but I do not think he is the great coach some think he is.

I liked Skip, he was a good coach an a better person. At this point I think Mack has surpassed Skip as a coach. Skip went to 1 sweet sixteen as a coach. His best team at Wake was shown an early 2nd round exit. The step from MCC to A10 as a nice jump, not anywhere close to the jump of A10- Big East. IMO the next 2 years will relaly define Chris Mack as a coach.

[Xavier]

Matta has taken OSU to the Championship game, One final four, One elite 8 and two sweet 16s. I'd say he is a great coach. Granted, I think Miller is better and eventually will win a NC.

[throwbackmuskie]

Matta has taken OSU to the Championship game, One final four, One elite 8 and two sweet 16s. I'd say he is a great coach. Granted, I think Miller is better and eventually will win a NC.

thats fine, I think the talent get them there more than anything. My opinion.

[GoMuskies]

The step from MCC to A10 as a nice jump, not anywhere close to the jump of A10- Big East.

I could not disagree with this any more. If anything, I think the jump from MCC to A-10 was a bigger step up.

[DC Muskie]

thats fine, I think the talent get them there more than anything. My opinion.

He's won 77% of the games he's "coached." I would be fine with that and his ability to let the talent he gathers and wins despite his actual ability to coach and win those games.

[xudash]

Disclaimer I was never a fan of Matta. He can recruit, but I do not think he is the great coach some think he is.

I liked Skip, he was a good coach an a better person. At this point I think Mack has surpassed Skip as a coach. Skip went to 1 sweet sixteen as a coach. His best team at Wake was shown an early 2nd round exit. The step from MCC to A10 as a nice jump, not anywhere close to the jump of A10- Big East. IMO the next 2 years will relaly define Chris Mack as a coach.

Agree completely. Though UMass was ranked #1 the year we entered the A10, the A10 still had its very weak bottom feeders going on back then. The jump from the A10 to the Big East has been much more significant.

[Wheelhouse]

No way can you compare Mack to Prosser. Also, what did Matta do? Yes, an Elite Eight, but he had arguably the best overall shooting guard in X history (Sato), as well as a senior point guard who went on one of the hottest streaks in Xavier history towards the end of the year. He also had a very good senior center in Anthony Myles. Those three guys propelled X from UC game on through the NCAA tournament. Give credit to Matta though, that team played excellent defense. The year prior though, he took a 3 seed into the tournament and promptly got eliminated by Maryland in the 2nd round, and that team included David West.

Sean Miller coached Xavier in the A10. His teams laid some clunkers as we all know. His best team, '07-'08, was full of upperclassmen. Seniors Burrell and Lavender, juniors Duncan, Raymond, Love, and CJ Anderson.

The level of competition in the A10 doesn't compare to what Mack is facing night in and night out.

Are there areas Mack can improve and get the team to improve? Definitely, but remember, Derrick Brown left after his junior year (what would've been Mack's first year). Crawford left after one year, and Semaj left after 2 years, so Mack has had to deal with a lot of early departures and then the whole Dez Wells fiasco.

Matta and Miller never had to deal with early departures like that or having their best player kicked out of school.

Mack has been through a lot, and still has 2 sweet sixteens under his belt and 4 NCAA tournament appearances. He has X in a very good spot, and this team should be really good next year.

I like Chris Mack and hope he continues to grow and improve as a coach, but he isn't yet in the same ballpark as Thad Matta or Sean Miller. I'm sure that's probably not a popular opinion around these parts because a bunch of people hate those two (I guess Matta I can understand a little bit but I really don't get it with Sean). I still think Mack can be the guy to take this program to the next level but he has a lot to prove.

[Wheelhouse]

A significant part of coaching in college basketball is recruiting. You need to have a nice blend of the two. I'm sure there are fantastic Xs & Os coaches at small schools all over the country but if you can't bring in top talent you'll be stuck in neutral.

[IM4X]

A significant part of coaching in college basketball is recruiting. You need to have a nice blend of the two. I'm sure there are fantastic Xs & Os coaches at small schools all over the country but if you can't bring in top talent you'll be stuck in neutral.

Unless you are Brad Stevens.

But yeah... A coach who does both well will dramatically increase his (or her) chances of getting better results.

[xudash]

I like Chris Mack and hope he continues to grow and improve as a coach, but he isn't yet in the same ballpark as Thad Matta or Sean Miller. I'm sure that's probably not a popular opinion around these parts because a bunch of people hate those two (I guess Matta I can understand a little bit but I really don't get it with Sean). I still think Mack can be the guy to take this program to the next level but he has a lot to prove.

Very fair post and summary.

It's all a little complicated. We've been through some of this discussion already. The backwash from the brawl and Dez Wells incidents has subsided by now. None of that should be used as any form of excuse moving forward.

It's also clear that some of our fanbase haven't adjusted to having Xavier participate in a conference that has the capacity to achieve the #2 RPI conference rank in the nation.

Otherwise, I don't understand some of the mental lapses at this point. In the Villanova game, if I recall correctly, we brought the ball down court in the second half and turned it over something like 3 or 4 straight times on errant passes, most of which were not the result of overly aggressive defense on Nova's part. It's also too bad when we can't hit badly needed 3-point shots, especially at home, but I suppose that happens everywhere.

It ain't over til it's over. Saturday will be interesting, to say the least. At the very least, we'll see what these guys are made of then, as they have to knw that their backs are against the wall.

[throwbackmuskie]

I could not disagree with this any more. If anything, I think the jump from MCC to A-10 was a bigger step up.

I am not surprised you disagree with me. The quality and depth is the big difference this time around. The teams now are on a whole other level.


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[throwbackmuskie]

He's won 77% of the games he's "coached." I would be fine with that and his ability to let the talent he gathers and wins despite his actual ability to coach and win those games.

When he coaches against teams with similar talent, he tends not to do as well. He is a great recruiter, just imo not a good game coach. Each their own.


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[GoMuskies]

The quality and depth is the big difference this time around. The teams now are on a whole other level.


All this was true jumping from the MCC to the A-10 as well. But more so.

[X-man]

There's no doubt that it's true that these teams would be better if Wells and Semaj had stayed. But doesn't Mack bear some responsibility for the fact that they're not here? Isn't it at least partially the coach's fault when one of his player's is kicked out of school? And don't you have to wonder about a situation where Semaj chooses to leave school to enter one of the deepest drafts in history so he can ride buses around the D-League? Can't you wonder if it was right to recruit both players as hard and the coach's management of the players in their time here that led to their early and unfortunate (in each case) departures?

No with Dez, and yes with Semaj. In Dez's situation, the school, its absurd policy on consensual sex, and its prior failures to enforce said policy are the culprits. In fact, my understanding is that the coaching staff fully expected Dez to win on appeal. They are completely blameless in the Dez case. With Semaj, Mack is clearly a major reason Semaj chose to leave. But that is allegedly because Semaj insisted that he be anointed the starting PG role and Mack wouldn't allow that without Semaj winning that position. So the fact that Mack decided that the coach raher than a player determines what role each player has on the team is a driving force in Semaj's departure. However Mack was right to take that position IMHO.

[MADXSTER]

Xavier was recruiting above of everyone else in the league when they were in the MCC. They were also recruiting above everyone else in the A10. Much much tougher task in the BE. If Xavier was in the BE at the time they were recruiting DSR, he would not have decommitted. Throw in Dez and this team would look completely different. To be fair to Mack and the program, I'm waiting for a full cycle(4 years) of being in the BE before throwing stones.

[xubrew]

Skip Prosser sucked. He won games, but he played in weaker leagues and he was never able to go far in the NCAA Tournament.

Thad Matta had success, but he did it with Skip's players, which included David West. He went on the run, but it was with a really good shooting guard and senior players that all got hot at the right time.

Sean Miller's first two years were awful. He made the NCAA Tournament in 2006, but it was as a #14 seed, which followed an awful regular season and four wins against NIT teams or worse. Yeah, he won later on, but he played in the Atlantic Ten, which was a weak league.

Chris Mack is terrible. That point has been well documented on here. He had some good years early, but it was with Miller's players.

I'm sick of all the crappy coaching Xavier has had over the years!!!


I swear, if Xavier were to kill its program off entirely and restart it from scratch, and whoever the coach was actually won the national championship the first year we were eligible again with 'his players,' most of the posters on here would say the guy got lucky because he was able to spend all that time focused on recruiting since we were starting from scratch and not playing the season.

[throwbackmuskie]

All this was true jumping from the MCC to the A-10 as well. But more so.

The old mcc was a pretty good conference, dayton, butler, Evansville and even Detroit were good. A10 was pretty much hnass and temple.


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[GoMuskies]

Only Detroit and Butler were in the MCC when we left.

Here is the roster the year before we headed for the A-10:

Xavier
LaSalle (probably the second best team in the league that year)
Northern Illinois
Wisconsin-Milwaukee
Wisconsin-Green Bay
Wright State
Illinois-Chicago
Cleveland State
Butler
Loyola (Chicago)
Detroit

Xavier went 14-0 in the league (lost in the Tournament) and 23-4 overall...and got a #11 seed.

In 1996, the following teams from the A-10 went to the NCAA Tournament:

UMass - #1 seed
Virginia Tech - #9 seed
Temple - #7 seed
George Washington - #11 seed

The MCC to the A-10 was not a minor change.

[throwbackmuskie]

Dude x was only in that mcc set up for a year, two At the most.


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[GoMuskies]

It may have been marginally better a couple of years before that. But only marginally. How many single digit seeds do you think the MCC produced the entire time Xavier was in it? I'd be surprised if the number of single-digit seeds the A-10 received in 1996 alone didn't exceed that number.

[D-West & PO-Z]

No with Dez, and yes with Semaj. In Dez's situation, the school, its absurd policy on consensual sex, and its prior failures to enforce said policy are the culprits. In fact, my understanding is that the coaching staff fully expected Dez to win on appeal. They are completely blameless in the Dez case. With Semaj, Mack is clearly a major reason Semaj chose to leave. But that is allegedly because Semaj insisted that he be anointed the starting PG role and Mack wouldn't allow that without Semaj winning that position. So the fact that Mack decided that the coach raher than a player determines what role each player has on the team is a driving force in Semaj's departure. However Mack was right to take that position IMHO.

I would love to see something verifying this. I know its been talked about on here before but I wouldnt believe that unless I saw something solid that supported this. I have not seen anything that does, do you have something? I think Semaj was gone no matter what, he was exicted (rightfully so) to start making money for playing basketball.

[throwbackmuskie]

The a10 jump is no where near the big east jump. It's not even close.


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[GoMuskies]

The a10 jump is no where near the big east jump. It's not even close.


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Agree. The jump to the A-10 was much more substantial.

[Wheelhouse]

Am I the only person that enjoys watching our offense much more without Semaj? I understand we were lacking in talent last year and he was clearly our best and most creative player, but man, watching him dribble around and drive to the basket on 80% of our possessions was brutal.

/end rant

[GoMuskies]

I think Semaj would have fit in better with the offense with the players on this year's team. I mean, who was he supposed to pass the ball to the last two years?

[throwbackmuskie]

Ask your self this. Would our current record get us in the dance this year if we were in the a10? It would not, we would not even be in the conversation. The a10 was a good league, but it is no where close the caliber the big east is. Heck you even showed how little you know about the mcc and its history.


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[throwbackmuskie]

Am I the only person that enjoys watching our offense much more without Semaj? I understand we were lacking in talent last year and he was clearly our best and most creative player, but man, watching him dribble around and drive to the basket on 80% of our possessions was brutal.

/end rant

I am right there with you.


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[GoMuskies]

Ask your self this. Would our current record get us in the dance this year if we were in the a10? It would not, we would not even be in the conversation. The a10 was a good league, but it is no where close the caliber the big east is.


I'm not sure what this has to do with anything. Of course the Big East is better than the A-10. Who is disputing that? The A-10 was simply a larger step up from the MCC than the Big East was from the A-10. And it's not particularly close.

Please enlighten on exactly what is I'm missing about the glory of the old MCC.

[throwbackmuskie]

Yeah stepping up from a mid major to a mid major is much bigger than stepping up from a mid major to a major conference that has perennial power. I mean playing @madiaon square is much like playing at Fordham.


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[GoMuskies]

Well, if the A-10 had been a mid-major conference, this would make some sense.

[XU 87]

Yeah stepping up from a mid major to a mid major is much bigger than stepping up from a mid major to a major conference that has perennial power. I mean playing @madiaon square is much like playing at Fordham.


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The A-10 was a MUCH stronger conference than the MCC when X made the move. The first year X was in the A-10, the A-10 sent 4 teams to the NCAA, including a #1 seed in UMass. In all of our years in the MCC, the MCC never sent more than 2 teams to the NCAA, and usually sent one.

[THRILLHOUSE]

Pssh, we all know that X should have gone Independent.

[throwbackmuskie]

I don't disagree that the a10 was better than the mcc. But the a10 much like the mcc was top heavy. The big east is very good from top to bottom with pretty much every team playing at a high level. There are no gimme games so to speak on the big east. The mcc and a10 both had a few of those year in and year out.


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[XU 87]

I don't disagree that the a10 was better than the mcc. But the a10 much like the mcc was top heavy. The big east is very good from top to bottom with pretty much every team playing at a high level. There are no gimme games so to speak on the big east. The mcc and a10 both had a few of those year in and year out.


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The A-10 was a step up from the MCC. The BE was a step up from the A-10. Personally, I was more concerned about competing in the A-10 than I was competing in the BE.

[muskieindent]

There is no blame to put on Mack for the Dez situation...that was because of years of incompetence by the Xavier administration and Dez was an easy scapegoat for Xavier to say "look we are doing the right thing now...you can let your federal probe stop now"

Seems like Duke faced a similar situation with Sulaimon.Apparently they knew about an assault charge against him for the last year.

[D-West & PO-Z]

Am I the only person that enjoys watching our offense much more without Semaj? I understand we were lacking in talent last year and he was clearly our best and most creative player, but man, watching him dribble around and drive to the basket on 80% of our possessions was brutal.

/end rant


I think Semaj would have fit in better with the offense with the players on this year's team. I mean, who was he supposed to pass the ball to the last two years?

Exactly GO. He had to do that last year. He was the only scorer.

[X-man]

I would love to see something verifying this. I know its been talked about on here before but I wouldnt believe that unless I saw something solid that supported this. I have not seen anything that does, do you have something? I think Semaj was gone no matter what, he was exited (rightfully so) to start making money for playing basketball.

I do, but (I know I am going to be killed for this) I can't reveal my sources. So unfortunately I can't be more specific. However I can say that the same source told me that the coaches wanted Lyons gone in the middle of his last season at X. So Mack is the reason Lyons left as well; he wasn't given the option of playing another year.

[Wheelhouse]

I think Semaj would have fit in better with the offense with the players on this year's team. I mean, who was he supposed to pass the ball to the last two years?

I agree with this.

[paulxu]

A week between games is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too long.

[GoMuskies]

A week between games is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too long.

We're pretty close to 8 months between games. Now THAT's WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY too long!

[LA Muskie]

You can't measure Gillen, Prosser, Matta, Miller and Mack against one another. At least not in any reliable way. Because each built upon his predecessors. Sure, Mack has a better tournament record. But that record was built on the backs of recruits and a program that were capable of doing so, only because of the path those coaches -- and Staak before them -- forged. There's simply no way to know what any of those guys would do if they hit the ground running with the program as it currently stands. But if we have to hypothesize, I think Miller would do the most with it.

[Xavier]

I think everyone would agree with you LA Muskie. Miller would do the most with the current situation. (IMO he is one of the top 10 coaches in the game today). It's not to say Mack couldn't get us far-he recruits well and I want to see how the current freshman progress.

[xufan2434]

I am soooo sick of the excuses for Mack this year. I don't understand it. Yes, he lost Dez and Semaj, but I thought everyone expected Dez to leave early anyway? It shouldn't matter by now. He brought in a great class this year, but I still have little faith in him developing players. At least half of his recruits have washed out and transferred or left the program. If people want to give a list excuses for all those, then fine but eventually it adds up.

I would like to know how many people when they're being completely honest with themselves would have confidence that Mack can out coach his opponent in the final 4 minutes of a game.. Mental toughness starts with the head coach and it's been the reoccurring theme the last two years. You can say this team is somewhat young all you want, but they've proven how well they can play. IMO, to get that on a consistent level, is on the coach. I don't care about the comparison to Matta or Miller.. That was 6 years ago. I think everyone here expects and wants better. Limping into Match and having so many questions unanswered still from the beginning of the year HAS to at some point be on the coach

[Wheelhouse]

I'll say this, a few years ago when other schools came calling I was really, really hoping Mack would stay. At this point, I wouldn't be upset if another school dipped it's toe in waters of Lake Mack. I still have hope he'll continue to grow and you never know if his replacement would work out, but my viewpoint has certainly changed.

[IM4X]

You can't measure Gillen, Prosser, Matta, Miller and Mack against one another. At least not in any reliable way. Because each built upon his predecessors. Sure, Mack has a better tournament record. But that record was built on the backs of recruits and a program that were capable of doing so, only because of the path those coaches -- and Staak before them -- forged. There's simply no way to know what any of those guys would do if they hit the ground running with the program as it currently stands. But if we have to hypothesize, I think Miller would do the most with it.

You make a good point about comparing the coaches.

Gillen may have been made a better head coach because he had Proser as his assistant, yet Prosser never developed into a better than a solid head coach and he never showed any improvement over his predecessor. There is no doubt that Miller should be included in the conversation for one of the ten best coaches, but so should Matta. He got a lot out of his players. He brought us to our first elite eight for goodness sake. He's even made Ohio State into a place that can go head to head with schools like Duke, Kentucky and North Carolina for recruits. How can people say anything other than he is an elite coach.

I honestly don't know if Miller would do the most with the current team, but he and Matta get the edge over Gillen if you had to rate the coaches only because those two continue to excel year after year. Gillen did a great job developing raw talent at X and he did well for a while after leaving X, but then eventually he struggled. I love Gillen though. All three coaches had their team playing better as a unit by the end of the season. Prosser choked at the end of the season, particularly in the tournament. I think that Mack (at least to this point) has not proven he is able to get his team consistently playing better towards the end of the season.

[Muskeagle]

I hope Mack stays. I hope the team improves (I think it will). That said, I've said it before and I'll say it again...Miller is the best coach X has ever had.

[gladdenguy]

I hope Mack stays. I hope the team improves (I think it will). That said, I've said it before and I'll say it again...Miller is the best coach X has ever had.

I don't think it's even close. Sean Miller in a landslide.......unfortunately we will probably never see anybody better.

[xu82]

I hope Mack stays. I hope the team improves (I think it will). That said, I've said it before and I'll say it again...Miller is the best coach X has ever had.

You never worried that persistant cough was going to wipe out the whole program like the plague?

[Backyard Champ]

I don't think it's even close. Sean Miller in a landslide.......unfortunately we will probably never see anybody better.

Most programs in the country will never see anyone close to Miller, let alone better.

[Wheelhouse]

That said, I've said it before and I'll say it again...Miller is the best coach X has ever had.

Unquestionably.

[ammtd34]

I am soooo sick of the excuses for Mack this year. I don't understand it. Yes, he lost Dez and Semaj, but I thought everyone expected Dez to leave early anyway? It shouldn't matter by now.

Considering Dez is still at Maryland, I think it would be safe to say he'd still be at Xavier.

[Cheesehead]

Are you saying Mick Cronin would not win the Big East?

[RealDeal]

I hope Mack stays. I hope the team improves (I think it will). That said, I've said it before and I'll say it again...Miller is the best coach X has ever had.

Yes, and some of our wonderful "fans" wanted him canned and replaced with the legendary Ron Everhart.

[DC Muskie]

Yes, and some of our wonderful "fans" wanted him canned and replaced with the legendary Ron Everhart.

You know, Ron Everhart is type of unsuccessful head coach this staff needs. I mean look how he has been a great addition to Bob Huggins.

[Lamont Sanford]

I am soooo sick of the excuses for Mack this year. I don't understand it. Yes, he lost Dez and Semaj, but I thought everyone expected Dez to leave early anyway? It shouldn't matter by now. He brought in a great class this year, but I still have little faith in him developing players. At least half of his recruits have washed out and transferred or left the program. If people want to give a list excuses for all those, then fine but eventually it adds up.

I would like to know how many people when they're being completely honest with themselves would have confidence that Mack can out coach his opponent in the final 4 minutes of a game.. Mental toughness starts with the head coach and it's been the reoccurring theme the last two years. You can say this team is somewhat young all you want, but they've proven how well they can play. IMO, to get that on a consistent level, is on the coach. I don't care about the comparison to Matta or Miller.. That was 6 years ago. I think everyone here expects and wants better. Limping into March and having so many questions unanswered still from the beginning of the year HAS to at some point be on the coach

Well said.

[American X]

Yes, and some of our wonderful "fans" wanted him canned and replaced with the legendary Ron Everhart.

Exactly one fan wondered if Ron Everhart was a superior coach to Sean Miller. R.I.P.

[RealDeal]

Exactly one fan wondered if Ron Everhart was a superior coach to Sean Miller. R.I.P.

Some idiot named danton3 started the thread in question on mm, the guy you are referring to agreed.

[MADXSTER]

I am soooo sick of the excuses for Mack this year. I don't understand it. Yes, he lost Dez and Semaj, but I thought everyone expected Dez to leave early anyway? It shouldn't matter by now. He brought in a great class this year, but I still have little faith in him developing players. At least half of his recruits have washed out and transferred or left the program. If people want to give a list excuses for all those, then fine but eventually it adds up.

I would like to know how many people when they're being completely honest with themselves would have confidence that Mack can out coach his opponent in the final 4 minutes of a game.. Mental toughness starts with the head coach and it's been the reoccurring theme the last two years. You can say this team is somewhat young all you want, but they've proven how well they can play. IMO, to get that on a consistent level, is on the coach. I don't care about the comparison to Matta or Miller.. That was 6 years ago. I think everyone here expects and wants better. Limping into Match and having so many questions unanswered still from the beginning of the year HAS to at some point be on the coach

You may take it as excuses but others see it as being rational thinking.

Xavier has gone through some tough times lately and has survived(Dez). Last year Xavier only had 8 scholarship players and got into the tourney. At the beginning of the season there was a poll and most said if Xavier made it into the tourney it would be considered successful. They did and everyone bitched about how Mack underachieved. Half the team was recruited while Xavier was in the A10. It's not excuses, it's reality that some just cannot/or refuse to see because they just love to bitch. Dez was only leaving early for those who refuse to see reality for what it is. He was never leaving early according to those who know more than you and me. Also remember that it is very rare for a freshman to come in and average 10+ ppg. Xavier has some great freshman on the roster and good things are yet to come.

What we are seeing is that when Xavier is on a down year, they are still in contention of making the tourney.

[JEHARDI]

I am soooo sick of the excuses for Mack this year. I don't understand it. Yes, he lost Dez and Semaj, but I thought everyone expected Dez to leave early anyway? It shouldn't matter by now. He brought in a great class this year, but I still have little faith in him developing players. At least half of his recruits have washed out and transferred or left the program. If people want to give a list excuses for all those, then fine but eventually it adds up.

I would like to know how many people when they're being completely honest with themselves would have confidence that Mack can out coach his opponent in the final 4 minutes of a game.. Mental toughness starts with the head coach and it's been the reoccurring theme the last two years. You can say this team is somewhat young all you want, but they've proven how well they can play. IMO, to get that on a consistent level, is on the coach. I don't care about the comparison to Matta or Miller.. That was 6 years ago. I think everyone here expects and wants better. Limping into Match and having so many questions unanswered still from the beginning of the year HAS to at some point be on the coach

Ironic you question someone's mental toughness while you are not mentally tough enough to handle the peaks and valleys of the last 2 seasons. No one on this team has given up or backed down, although plenty of whiny so - called fans have. The team and the coach have overcome a number of setbacks and are on the verge of making the tournament again. It has not been easy or pretty at times but there are 300+ schools that would change places with us in a heartbeat. The program will only continue to grow and get better, if you are too weak to enjoy the ride, jump on The KY bandwagon, you will not be missed!

[DC Muskie]

Reading fans thump their chest about how awesome fans they are is always entertaining.

[gladdenguy]

Reading fans thump their chest about how awesome fans they are is always entertaining.

Public reps.