paradigm shift

[nasdadjr]

I just wanted to say after looking at posts all year that all xavier fans including myself need an overhaul in our mindset about conference results. Through no fault of our own the mcc and a-10 has conditioned the fan base to believe that a conference record 6 to 7 games over .500 and top 3 conference finish is only way into the dance. We have never been part of a conference where .500 was still a serious accomplishment and still gets you serious consideration for the tournament.

I only bring this up because while I have not liked the results of this team this year they still are major players for a tournament spot. .500 in the big east is enough to finish top half of the league and probably get a spot along with a win at uc.

Of course I still want to win conference every year but finishing fifth or sixth is not the death sentence in the big east like it was in the a-10. Definitely a different mindset that I know I still have to get used to and I think that is case for a lot of others as well.

[markchal]

While I don't necessarily disagree, I do think we used to give loads of shit to those teams that got in by going .500 in conference and playing cupcakes in non-con. We didn't really challenge ourselves in the non-con and still dropped three and have been pitiful on the road. Those are teams we would've bitched endlessly about if they made the tournament.

Also, I don't think your premise applies to this season. We should've taken care of business against teams like Auburn, UTEP and Creighton. And I don't really think we've begun to see what the new Big East can potentially be. I think it's actually been sort of weak for the first two seasons.

There's been a lot of posts lately about the recent high-water marks for our program (within the last decade) and the talent on those teams. We had arguably two of our weaker rosters in terms of experience (and maybe talent last year) yet finished third in the Big Easy last year and potentially in the top-half this year.

The conference is helped by having no true cellar-dwellers (have you seen the RPI for SLU and Duquesne this year?), but I think the best days are ahead for the Big East.

[Kahns Krazy]

I just wanted to say after looking at posts all year that all xavier fans including myself need an overhaul in our mindset

I'll let you guess why I didn't bother reading past this point.

[Xavier]

I think Xavier is one of the top three programs in the Big East. (Nova/Gtown/Xavier.... But I will put Butler in that mix now). I expect those four to finish top 5-6 every season with the other programs going through the motions of up and down years in the conference. I agree with MARKCHAL, I don't think the Big East has been average past two years but I think it is well on its way to being very good.

[nasdadjr]

I agree we have not taken care of business against lesser teams in non conference but you can't change those results. My point which Kahns won't give a chance is that those results along with a fifth or sixth place finish in the a-10 is a nit guarantee. In the big east the dance is still a reality with a fifth or sixth place finish. Something us xavier fans have never been a part of ever in the history of this program

[X-Fan]

I'm "ok" with it this year because I feel the program is still in a "transition mode" of sorts. Youngish team, with a lot of the talent in the Freshman & Sophomore classes. However, once X is 3-4 years in the Big East, my expectations will increase. Down the road I expect Xavier to win the league, dominate most opponents, and win a National Championship.

I'm a patient person...but that patience will only last so long.

[Muskie]

I'll let you guess why I didn't bother reading past this point.
Then you missed out. It's a fair point.

[GoMuskies]

We weren't in it, but the A-10 got 6 bids last year. In 2004, Xavier finished 8th in the A-10 regular season and got a #7 seed in the NCAA Tournament.

This league is obviously better, but some of the things people say are "unprecedented" aren't quite as unprecedented as they might initially seem.

[xudash]

We weren't in it, but the A-10 got 6 bids last year. In 2004, Xavier finished 8th in the A-10 regular season and got a #7 seed in the NCAA Tournament.

This league is obviously better, but some of the things people say are "unprecedented" aren't quite as unprecedented as they might initially seem.

Was that from having won the A10 Tournament in 2004? If that is the case, that is not exactly an apples to oranges comparison, given the point that is being made.

[paulxu]

We were actually 4th, but your point still stands.

[GoMuskies]

No, we were 8th. We had to win a play-in game just to get St. Joe's in the quarters (then GW in the semis and Dayton in the finals). Yes, we won the A-10 Tournament, but getting a #7 seed is pretty huge for the 8th place team in a league. A few years later we won the A-10 Tournament and got a 14 seed for our troubles.

[GoMuskies]

Paul, I forgot we were in divisions back then, so we were 4th in the West, beat the #5 East team, and then had to play East #1 (St. Joe's) the next round. My bad.

[paulxu]

Crazy times back then.
http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/conferences/standings/_/id/3/year/2004/atlantic-10-conference

All I remember is the Duke game in Atlanta. No, that's not true...I remember the run.

[mid major]

We weren't in it, but the A-10 got 6 bids last year. In 2004, Xavier finished 8th in the A-10 regular season and got a #7 seed in the NCAA Tournament.

This league is obviously better, but some of the things people say are "unprecedented" aren't quite as unprecedented as they might initially seem.
And in consecutive years 2005 and 2006 the A10 got exactly 1 team in the tournament. Some years they'll get 3, 4 or maybe 6 teams like last year but that's not the norm. I can't see the BE getting just one team in the tournament in any given year.

[GoMuskies]

That's true. It's beside the point, but it's true.

[DC Muskie]

I think Xavier is one of the top three programs in the Big East. (Nova/Gtown/Xavier.... But I will put Butler in that mix now).

No Providence?

[X-band '01]

We weren't in it, but the A-10 got 6 bids last year. In 2004, Xavier finished 8th in the A-10 regular season and got a #7 seed in the NCAA Tournament.

This league is obviously better, but some of the things people say are "unprecedented" aren't quite as unprecedented as they might initially seem.

And then there was winning the A-10 in 2006 despite a 10th place finish in conference play that season.

[xu82]

No Providence?

After we just kicked their.... wait, OK, maybe we need to hope for the top half of the league and occasionally bounce up to 1 or 2. That seems more realistic. It ain't the A-10 anymore. A new paradigm indeed.

[GoMuskies]

No Providence?

Providence? That program has been garbage forever. They're a pretty good team right now, but from a program perspective I'd hate to think we were on their level.

[DC Muskie]

After we just kicked their.... wait, OK, maybe we need to hope for the top half of the league and occasionally bounce up to 1 or 2. That seems more realistic. It ain't the A-10 anymore. A new paradigm indeed.

I've definitely have a new view...that we are the 5th or 6th best program and in a surprise we can finish 3rd like we did last year.

Providence finished 4th last year on tiebreakers, and won the BE Conference title. They are following that up with a possible 3rd or 2nd place finish. I think that puts them in the top 3 programs in the conference. That and they have two of the five best players in the conference this season.

We have our work cut out for us to be considered top three...by a long shot.

[DC Muskie]

Providence? That program has been garbage forever. They're a pretty good team right now, but from a program perspective I'd hate to think we were on their level.

Well being pretty good now seems to all that matters at the moment. And I'm confident they will finish in the top three next season, especially if Dunn stays.

[X-band '01]

I've definitely have a new view...that we are the 5th or 6th best program and in a surprise we can finish 3rd like we did last year.

Providence finished 4th last year on tiebreakers, and won the BE Conference title. They are following that up with a possible 3rd or 2nd place finish. I think that puts them in the top 3 programs in the conference. That and they have two of the five best players in the conference this season.

We have our work cut out for us to be considered top three...by a long shot.

Seton Hall did Providence a huge favor last year by knocking off Villanova in the Big East tournament. I don't think the Friars have beaten Villanova yet in the new Big East format.

[GoMuskies]

Well being pretty good now seems to all that matters at the moment.

Kinda. That's the most important thing today, sure. But do you really think, for instance, that Boise State has a better football program than Michigan? They've certainly had better teams than Michigan for awhile.

Granted, Xavier basketball is no Michigan football.

[DC Muskie]

Seton Hall did Providence a huge favor last year by knocking off Villanova in the Big East tournament. I don't think the Friars have beaten Villanova yet in the new Big East format.

Well it's only the second year, so the answer to that is no, not yet. But Nova hasn't beaten Providence in the tournament either.

Providence also beat Creighton for the title. That's pretty impressive, something we couldn't do if given the chance.

[DC Muskie]

Kinda. That's the most important thing today, sure. But do you really think, for instance, that Boise State has a better football program than Michigan? They've certainly had better teams than Michigan for awhile.

Granted, Xavier basketball is no Michigan football.

Well if Boise and Michigan were in the same conference and Boise continues to finish better and win the conference, then I'm not sure how you argue otherwise.

I mean effectively argue. You can certainly argue the point, but it would be hard to defend simply because Michigan was good in the 80's.

[GoMuskies]

It's just two years, though. It's not a trend. Yet.

[DC Muskie]

It's just two years, though. It's not a trend. Yet.

Okay, see you at this time next year.

Also, until we finish in the top three consistently over a three year period, we really can't claim being a top three program in the BE.

[GoMuskies]

I think we can based on our past accomplishments at this point. However, those past accomplishments are starting to get a bit remote for my tastes. It is, to your point, going to get harder to make that argument next year, and even harder the year after next, etc. unless something changes pretty quickly.

[DC Muskie]

I think we can based on our past accomplishments at this point. However, those past accomplishments are starting to get a bit remote for my tastes. It is, to your point, going to get harder to make that argument next year, and even harder the year after next, etc. unless something changes pretty quickly.

I can understand that.

There's no reason why we can't easily fill the top two or three. I think JTII is a mediocre coach frankly. He's living off stuff from 8 seasons ago.

So for me, in my mind there's Nova...and everyone's fighting for second. And I think the teams that can fill that out (In no particular order):

1. Us
2. Georgetown
3. Providence
4. Marquette (Wojo has done a great job and is recruiting like crazy)
5. Butler (Let's see how Craigslist does next season)

The biggest thing about this conference for me is you have a bunch of teams who can do very well in any given year (granted it's just two), like Butler and Creighton.

Then everyone else sort of shifts around the middle half of the standings. We need a big movement up to the top next year and then stay there and compete for a title. We need to pick this up a notch, like we were all hoping for when we joined the league.

[xu82]

I think we can based on our past accomplishments at this point. However, those past accomplishments are starting to get a bit remote for my tastes. It is, to your point, going to get harder to make that argument next year, and even harder the year after next, etc. unless something changes pretty quickly.

Our freshmen and sophomores are, I believe, what will make that change happen. Keep the talent coming!

[Masterofreality]

Providence? That program has been garbage forever. They're a pretty good team right now, but from a program perspective I'd hate to think we were on their level.


Well being pretty good now seems to all that matters at the moment. And I'm confident they will finish in the top three next season, especially if Dunn stays.

Ed Cooley is now Providence's coach, and he most assuredly is not garbage. Can't compare Providence now to 5 years ago.

[GoMuskies]

Can't compare Providence now to 5 years ago.

Nor Xavier. :(

[Xavier]

Okay, see you at this time next year.

Also, until we finish in the top three consistently over a three year period, we really can't claim being a top three program in the BE.


So, no one in the BE is a top three program yet? Not to mention- I don't really judge a program based off the last two years, do you?

[MuskiePimp23]

I'll let you guess why I didn't bother reading past this point.

Did you lose your reading glasses?

[MuskiePimp23]

Was that from having won the A10 Tournament in 2004? If that is the case, that is not exactly an apples to oranges comparison, given the point that is being made.

After we beat St. Joe's in the quarterfinals we were in the NCAA's regardless of if we won the A-10 tourney that year. We came in as a 7 seed, very far from the bubble.

[DC Muskie]

So, no one in the BE is a top three program yet? Not to mention- I don't really judge a program based off the last two years, do you?

Well I'm not surprised you don't judge a program based off the last two years...because you claim Xavier is right up there with GTown, Nova and possibly Butler.

It's a completely random set of thinking in my opinion. As we enter year three in the conference, do you see us moving into that spot just under Nova? And do it consistently? Or are we basing the idea that we dominated the A10, therefore we should be considered a top three program in a difference conference?

I think sometimes we forget that this conference has benefited other programs as well. Providence being the primary program. Simply because they didn't go to the tournament in 2008, while we went to the Elite 8, doesn't mean they are not a top three program in the BE conference. Because they are showing they are where it matters.

I;m not sure why anyone thinks we are top three if we are basing it on accomplishments in the past. If we did that, we are at best 4th. And finishing 4th would be the best case scenario this season.

[gladdenguy]

I can't even remember the last time this program was ranked......anyone know the answer???

Thanks Chris Mack.

As far as a top 3 program in this conference....trending downward to the 10.....not downward to Villanova.

[Xavier]

Well I'm not surprised you don't judge a program based off the last two years...because you claim Xavier is right up there with GTown, Nova and possibly Butler.

It's a completely random set of thinking in my opinion. As we enter year three in the conference, do you see us moving into that spot just under Nova? And do it consistently? Or are we basing the idea that we dominated the A10, therefore we should be considered a top three program in a difference conference?.

I guess I meant I don't judge a program JUST off the last two years. I feel like looking at current programs a 10 year gap is a good gauge- but we are certainly trending downwards while Providence is clearly heading up. I base the idea of being a top 3 or 4 program on how the last 10 years have gone compared to the other teams in the conference. You base it off what are you doing for me now (I assume based off the line "because they are showing they are where it matters" as to why Providence is a better program).

Even if we just look at the last five years- Providence has made the tournament Once, losing in the first round as an 11 seed where as Xavier has gone four times, two of which making the sweet 16. Its hard for me to say Providence is a better program than Xavier at the moment though I could agree they are trending upwards as we are trending backwards.

[Kahns Krazy]

Then you missed out. It's a fair point.

The point is fair. The premise that no fan realized it before our friend decided to speak for all of "us" today is not. Some of "us" were aware of the benefits of affiliation with a strong non-conference record nearly 20 years ago when the use of the RPI rose to prominence.

This isn't a "paradigm shift". This is a rehash of a post from 1998.

[Xville]

Our freshmen and sophomores are, I believe, what will make that change happen. Keep the talent coming!

Agree with this...I was watching a little bit of the 2008 Regional game vs WVU and there were two things that I noticed....1.) That Xavier team had a buttload of talent on it (Raymond, Burrell, Lavender, Duncan, Brown, Love, CJ, Dante) 2.) It had a lot of upperclassmen leadership on it...Burrell, Lavender, Duncan were Seniors; Raymond and CJ were Juniors...Now I know Lavender and CJ were transfers but even without those two, you still had Burrell Duncan and Raymond who had been thru some wars and were absolute team leaders.

What's my point? I believe we are a few years away from seeing results like that team had. I think we have a lot of talent, but I don't think we have the talent and leadership where it really needs to be and that is with the upper classmen. Dee and Stain are good players but honestly would either of them even see the floor if they were on that '08 roster and do they have even close to the leadership abilities of the Quiet Assassins Raymond, Duncan or the ultimate team player Stan the Man? Watching that video kind of opened my eyes to what our team is right now and we just aren't where we need to be....its going to be another year or two before we get back to the point that we are accustomed to.