Butler v. Villanova (Feb 14)

[Muskie]

This one is setting up to be a big game. Butler is hyping the game in local media.

[casualfan]

This one is setting up to be a big game. Butler is hyping the game in local media.

It's interesting that Butler has this whole week off while Villanova travels to Providence wednesday before heading to Butler for the game Saturday.

Tough spot for Nova given the extra rest and it being a Butler home game, but then again if there's a team who can withstand that stuff it is them.

[kyxu]

Tough spot for Nova given the extra rest and it being a Butler home game, but then again if there's a team who can withstand that stuff it is them.

Some have said that Nova, Butler, Providence, and Georgetown have "separated" themselves from the rest of the Big East, but I think Villanova is on another level compared to everyone else.

They're like how we used to be in the A-10.

[Muskie]

Some have said that Nova, Butler, Providence, and Georgetown have "separated" themselves from the rest of the Big East, but I think Villanova is on another level compared to everyone else.

They're like how we used to be in the A-10.

It's Nova and then everyone else I think. Butler (they're the hot team right now) is probably next and then a bunch of jockeying around. I'm still getting used to the rough and tumble conference season (which is dramatically different than the old A-10). You can't overlook anyone home or away.

[xudash]

So how did Butler get to be Butler this year?

Coaching fiasco to beat the band.

An interesting collection of players.

Do those players have a better understanding of intensity over 40 minutes whether their coach tells them that or not?

Is it their defensive scheme and system that has allowed them to build momentum brick by brick?

I'm all ears/eyes on this one, if anyone has some constructive insights to share about this.

[waggy]

They may not be NBA'rs but I think they just have some really good players. Woods has played really well and is way underappreciated. They defend well. They make the shots they are presented. They rebound.

[xavierj]

Some have said that Nova, Butler, Providence, and Georgetown have "separated" themselves from the rest of the Big East, but I think Villanova is on another level compared to everyone else.

They're like how we used to be in the A-10.

Except Xavier has beat Georgetown twice and the games were really not very close.

[casualfan]

Except Xavier has beat Georgetown twice and the games were really not very close.

They're talking about the standings. Other than those four teams everyone else is either at or below .500 in conference play.

[bleedXblue]

There's 6 league games left. Lots can happen.

As far as Butler is concerned, Roosevelt Jones is the difference maker. There are quite a few teams that have no one that can guard him. Barlow doesn't make many mistakes and if Dunham doesn't shoot them out of games, they are pretty good.

[xudash]

There's 6 league games left. Lots can happen.

As far as Butler is concerned, Roosevelt Jones is the difference maker. There are quite a few teams that have no one that can guard him. Barlow doesn't make many mistakes and if Dunham doesn't shoot them out of games, they are pretty good.

Jones seems to be another "find" for Butler. Much like Gordon Heyseed was. The thing is, every team should know is MO at this point when it comes to him driving and putting up one of his loopy one-handed shots. Then again, easy for me to say, I guess.

[kyxu]

Butler is a team that is greater than the sum of its parts. Not a lot of spectacular players, but they play really well together, and they play hard.

I don't know, I'm just waiting for the day that Butler's success will be "unsustainable" due to their current athletic model.

[mistabeecee41]

They have a solid PG who runs the system well.
They have a shooter.
They have an (unorthodox) wing who can get to the lane at will and finish.
They have a defensive minded big.
They have a goofy, white big guy who can score in the post.
They have a 6th man who can heat up at any moment.

It didn't look good on paper, but looking back now - it works.

[ArizonaXUGrad]

Butler has a lot of experience on that bench. They more than a few seniors and juniors. They start 2 seniors, 2 juniors, and a sophomore. They play another Junior and 2 freshmen with regularity. They rely on their seniors and juniors. None of their starters are new to the program.

We start a similar lineup. 2 seniors, 2 juniors, and a sophomore (Myles). We play 2 freshmen and another 2 sophomores with regularity. However, Abell is a new player and Blueitt is as well when he starts. Stainbrook was a transfer and does not have 4 years in the program. Those things make a difference, albeit small but it's still a difference.

Next year, Butler will get that NC State transfer to replace Barlow and will get a taste of what it's like starting new personnel.

[xubrew]

So how did Butler get to be Butler this year?

Coaching fiasco to beat the band.

An interesting collection of players.

Do those players have a better understanding of intensity over 40 minutes whether their coach tells them that or not?

Is it their defensive scheme and system that has allowed them to build momentum brick by brick?

I'm all ears/eyes on this one, if anyone has some constructive insights to share about this.

I think coaching is a huge part of it. They have one of the best coaches in the conference, who really should be the conference coach of the year. The only fiasco was that they didn't hire Holtmann the first time (at least not as the head coach) when he was much more proven.

I keep saying that, but I am more perplexed by that than anything I've seen in all of college hoops for quite some time. I mean....what the hell were they doing, and how the hell did they do it?? (Hiring him as an assistant and not a head coach, I mean.)

[xubrew]

Butler is a team that is greater than the sum of its parts. Not a lot of spectacular players, but they play really well together, and they play hard.

I don't know, I'm just waiting for the day that Butler's success will be "unsustainable" due to their current athletic model.

I don't know if you can go back and look up posts from five years ago, but people were then saying that Butler was not sustainable. No matter how long they sustain themselves, people seem to think they're model is not sustainable. There were people who were actually against inviting them into the Atlantic Ten because they were of the belief their program wasn't sustainable.

[kyxu]

I don't know if you can go back and look up posts from five years ago, but people were then saying that Butler was not sustainable. No matter how long they sustain themselves, people seem to think they're model is not sustainable. There were people who were actually against inviting them into the Atlantic Ten because they were of the belief their program wasn't sustainable.

Yep. As I'm sure you can guess, my "unsustainable" remark was tongue-in-cheek.

[xubrew]

Yep. As I'm sure you can guess, my "unsustainable" remark was tongue-in-cheek.

Yes, I know it was.

[xu82]

I keep saying that, but I am more perplexed by that than anything I've seen in all of college hoops for quite some time. I mean....what the hell were they doing, and how the hell did they do it?? (Hiring him as an assistant and not a head coach, I mean.)

Someone else with an opening should have made him a better offer - and they're kicking themselves now!

[xubrew]

Someone else with an opening should have made him a better offer - and they're kicking themselves now!

There were schools that wanted him. Granted, they weren't big programs, but they were still a step up from the Big South. That's why it made no sense that he would go to Butler to be an assistant coach. Still doesn't....unless he had reason to think that he'd eventually be the head coach. That's me being a conspiracy theorist, but I can't think of any other reason in the world he would have gone to Butler as an assistant.

[Bulldawg]

I think coaching is a huge part of it. They have one of the best coaches in the conference, who really should be the conference coach of the year. The only fiasco was that they didn't hire Holtmann the first time (at least not as the head coach) when he was much more proven.

I keep saying that, but I am more perplexed by that than anything I've seen in all of college hoops for quite some time. I mean....what the hell were they doing, and how the hell did they do it?? (Hiring him as an assistant and not a head coach, I mean.)

Holtmann was on nobody's radar for head coach. It was down to Lavall Jordan, an assistant at Michigan who can recruit very well, and Brandon Miller. I was on the Lavall side of things due to his experience at Michigan. Holtmann went to college with John Groce at Taylor University and eventually worked with him which led him to meet Miller. Other then the opportunity of trying to land a bigger job, Miller's friendship with Holtmann is likely a reason he took the job as an assistant.

[xubrew]

Holtmann was on nobody's radar for head coach. It was down to Lavall Jordan, an assistant at Michigan who can recruit very well, and Brandon Miller. I was on the Lavall side of things due to his experience at Michigan. Holtmann went to college with John Groce at Taylor University and eventually worked with him which led him to meet Miller. Other then the opportunity of trying to land a bigger job, Miller's friendship with Holtmann is likely a reason he took the job as an assistant.

Well, I really do follow all 32 conferences, and he was on my radar. I can't believe that he wasn't on anyone else's. The year before he started as the head man at Gardner Webb they had just five div1 wins. They were significantly better just three years later. I don't think any major programs wanted him, but I do think places like Drake and Troy were sitting up and taking notice. Those aren't big jobs, but it's slightly better than most Big South jobs.

You get peoples attention when you turn a program around that drastically. It's also odd for any head coach to leave and take a job as an assistant coach, even if it is at a higher level program. You just never see that. It really does kind of go the other way. Assistant coaches leave major programs to be head coaches at smaller ones.

Either way, it was a great hire that has worked out rather nicely.

[GoMuskies]

I do think places like Drake and Troy were sitting up and taking notice. Those aren't big jobs, but it's slightly better than most Big South jobs.

I don't know about Troy, but Drake would be an ENORMOUS step up from a place like Gardner Webb. Drake is not a bad gig at all.

[D-West & PO-Z]

I don't know about Troy, but Drake would be an ENORMOUS step up from a place like Gardner Webb. Drake is not a bad gig at all.

Yeah, admittedly not knowing much about Troy that sounds about the same level as Gardner Webb to me, actually I think Gardner Webb is more recognizable as a bball program to me, but Drake is a school I definitely know, they are in the MVC and had a really good season in 2008. Then their coach went to Providence but is now at Cent Michigan.

[bleedXblue]

He was hired as Miller's replacement. No question.

By the way, what ever came of Miller's medical situation? Just seems odd that it's never really surfaced.

[Milhouse]

I mean people forget but last year Butler had some insanely close games. I think they lost like 4 conference games in OT? Heck I know we beat them down at Hinkle but last year it was a dogfight at cintas til the last 3 mins.

Next year they return 4 of their top 5 leading scores and then add Tyler Lewis a former All American at PG. I think they'll be even better next year.

[Bulldawg]

He was hired as Miller's replacement. No question.

By the way, what ever came of Miller's medical situation? Just seems odd that it's never really surfaced.

We are never going to know the true story, and based off some of the stuff I've heard that's probably best for Miller and the university.

[Nildogg]

We are never going to know the true story, and based off some of the stuff I've heard that's probably best for Miller and the university.

99% of the assumptions out there about all of this are false.

Not sure what you mean by best for the University? Are you implying that something would be embarassing? Far from the truth... its a sad situation that is maintaining privacy for tough (not scandalous) implications for Brandon and his family. What happened surely could not have been predicted/ prevented aside from someone saying he should have never been hired in the first place, and then of course this would have never been in the public realm.

I think reading anything further into Holtmann being hired as an assistant is just trying to inject something into the situation that is false. People knock Butler's tendency to hire from within as a negative, when in fact it probably set up this very scenario since he was smart enough to recognize that he would eventually get his chance.

[xubrew]

99% of the assumptions out there about all of this are false.

Not sure what you mean by best for the University? Are you implying that something would be embarassing? Far from the truth... its a sad situation that is maintaining privacy for tough (not scandalous) implications for Brandon and his family. What happened surely could not have been predicted/ prevented aside from someone saying he should have never been hired in the first place, and then of course this would have never been in the public realm.

I think reading anything further into Holtmann being hired as an assistant is just trying to inject something into the situation that is false. People knock Butler's tendency to hire from within as a negative, when in fact it probably set up this very scenario since he was smart enough to recognize that he would eventually get his chance.

I'm not knocking Butler for hiring Holtmann. I'm actually quite impressed. I said that the day they did hire him.

If I'm "injecting something that is false" it's because I don't know how the hell Butler did it. It's not to make a false implication in an attempt to knock them.

Seriously, nicely done.

[Bulldawg]

99% of the assumptions out there about all of this are false.

Not sure what you mean by best for the University? Are you implying that something would be embarassing? Far from the truth... its a sad situation that is maintaining privacy for tough (not scandalous) implications for Brandon and his family. What happened surely could not have been predicted/ prevented aside from someone saying he should have never been hired in the first place, and then of course this would have never been in the public realm.

I think reading anything further into Holtmann being hired as an assistant is just trying to inject something into the situation that is false. People knock Butler's tendency to hire from within as a negative, when in fact it probably set up this very scenario since he was smart enough to recognize that he would eventually get his chance.

What I meant by that comment, is that no matter what happens this is going to be viewed in a negative light with all the speculation and talk around it. I'm not saying it was something awful, but my guess is if it was really medically related we would have heard about it ages ago.