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View Full Version : 3 point shooting % over last 10 games



IM4X
02-05-2015, 02:17 AM
.2645

Earlier in the season we were one of the better 3 point shooting teams.

It's like every decent 3 point shooter on our team not named Remy has forgotten how to shoot from beyond the arc.

These guys have been beyond bad over the past 10 games

Dee - absolutely horrible

JP - just terrible

Trevon - painfully bad

Farr - horrendous

Myles - he's been good one day and awful the next.

They need to find a way to get their strokes back! Better ball movement should help. Plus I've notice many of them not setting their feet before shooting.

BMoreX
02-05-2015, 08:26 AM
I was going to make a post about this but I'm still frustrated about last night.

But yeah, it's been essentially awful since conference play began. It seems like it's even worse in the last 4 or 5 games.

bleedXblue
02-05-2015, 08:37 AM
Well, you can see that very few 3 pointers come from the natural flow of the offense. Almost all of them are contested and derived from the typical dribble around the top of the key.... hold the ball..... pass.....dribble......hold the ball......pass.....dribble....hold the ball.....oh shit lets dump it into Stain or Jalen.

Did you see how Creighton created shots last night? Dribble penetration, screening, lots of movement off the ball. You don't see that with X.

casualfan
02-05-2015, 09:13 AM
.2645

Earlier in the season we were one of the better 3 point shooting teams.

It's like every decent 3 point shooter on our team not named Remy has forgotten how to shoot from beyond the arc.

These guys have been beyond bad over the past 10 games

Dee - absolutely horrible

JP - just terrible

Trevon - painfully bad

Farr - horrendous

Myles - he's been good one day and awful the next.

They need to find a way to get their strokes back! Better ball movement should help. Plus I've notice many of them not setting their feet before shooting.

Here's a thread I started a few weeks back that I think can shed some light on this.

They did a marvelous job of booking mediocre to terrible defensive teams for the OOC portion of the schedule. Now that we're in conference we're playing much much better defensive teams.

Now Creighton is not particularly good defensively, BUT I think there is something to be said for being a rhythm as a jump shooter and it is pretty clear that rhythm has been lost for a lot of guys.

We've also still got to face Cincy, Butler, and Nova who are all currently top 15 defenses.

boozehound
02-05-2015, 09:17 AM
Well, you can see that very few 3 pointers come from the natural flow of the offense. Almost all of them are contested and derived from the typical dribble around the top of the key.... hold the ball..... pass.....dribble......hold the ball......pass.....dribble....hold the ball.....oh shit lets dump it into Stain or Jalen.

Did you see how Creighton created shots last night? Dribble penetration, screening, lots of movement off the ball. You don't see that with X.

I'm not sure there is a natural flow to this offense. Mack's offensive philosophy seems to be built around the following 2 key plays: (1) Get the ball to a big who is often in relatively poor post position or (2) pass the ball around the perimeter until somebody shoots a contested jump shot or tries to dribble-drive.

I am baffled that we can't get open shots with the amount of shooters we have on the floor.

kyxu
02-05-2015, 09:56 AM
Well, you can see that very few 3 pointers come from the natural flow of the offense. Almost all of them are contested and derived from the typical dribble around the top of the key.... hold the ball..... pass.....dribble......hold the ball......pass.....dribble....hold the ball.....oh shit lets dump it into Stain or Jalen.


We're even missing wide open looks from deep, so I wouldn't even say our terrible shooting is wholly a product of not getting a good shot.



Did you see how Creighton created shots last night? Dribble penetration, screening, lots of movement off the ball. You don't see that with X.

Easy to do when the team defending you (Xavier) is completely baffled by its own defense. I swear, the only team confused and rendered feckless by Xavier's defense is Xavier.

OH.X.MI
02-05-2015, 10:31 AM
And to compound not making three's ourselves, we are ranked, according to NCAA stats, 238th in perimeter defense. Teams are making near 35% of their three point shots and we can't buy a shot. Recipe for disaster right there and nothing seems to be changing.

Masterofreality
02-05-2015, 10:33 AM
And to compound not making three's ourselves, we are ranked, according to NCAA stats, 238th in perimeter defense. Teams are making near 35% of their three point shots and we can't buy a shot. Recipe for disaster right there and nothing seems to be changing.

We really need to stop this hedging. All it does is create a scramble mode and guys can't get back out to the shooters.

Stop it already.

gladdenguy
02-05-2015, 10:34 AM
There are some people who seem to give sUCks a hard time about their shooters. This team's shooters aren't much better.

muethibp
02-05-2015, 10:50 AM
We really need to stop this hedging. All it does is create a scramble mode and guys can't get back out to the shooters.

Stop it already.

I couldn't agree more.

Look, I get the virtue in the hedge. I do. If it can be pulled off, it's the most effective way of stopping the most prominent offensive play (the pick and roll) in basketball.

To hedge requires basically two things: (1) a big that is capable enough of hedging and then retreating quickly enough to get back in position and (2) the three defenders uninvolved in the pick to cover four guys momentarily through a series of rotations while the hedging big guy recovers.

Guess what. We can't do either. Our bigs are either too slow (Matt) or too unskilled defensively (Farr and Reynolds) to pull off number 1. And our other defenders simply lack the defensive talent and instinct to handle the rotations.

Our inability to handle this situation leads to two things: (1) teams can move the ball ahead of our rotation for open 3s (this, more than anything else, is why we are 238th in three point defense %) and (2) our defenders are in a jumbled up mess when shots go up and totally out of position for rebounds (our guys are bad enough at rebounding to try to do it out of position).

They don't have the personnel to play how the coach wants to play. They just don't. And if Mack and the Gumchompers don't realize that and keep doing the same things over and over and over with ill-fitting personnel, then that's on them.

kyxu
02-05-2015, 10:53 AM
We really need to stop this hedging. All it does is create a scramble mode and guys can't get back out to the shooters.

Stop it already.

I agree. Like I said in another post, this team is rendered wholly off-balance in its efforts to keep its opponent off-balance.

I'm surprised we haven't seen two Xavier defenders collide when attempting to recover on a wide open shooter.

X-Fan
02-05-2015, 10:54 AM
.2645

Earlier in the season we were one of the better 3 point shooting teams.

It's like every decent 3 point shooter on our team not named Remy has forgotten how to shoot from beyond the arc.

These guys have been beyond bad over the past 10 games

Dee - absolutely horrible

JP - just terrible

Trevon - painfully bad

Farr - horrendous

Myles - he's been good one day and awful the next.

They need to find a way to get their strokes back! Better ball movement should help. Plus I've notice many of them not setting their feet before shooting.
Yeah, I was SO hoping for one of JP's and Trevon's 3's to fall. Just so they could maybe get going again. One of JP's 3's seemed to go half way in and then jumped back out. A lot of Xavier's issues would be lessened if guys could start hitting more open looks.

I also agree about needing more dribble drive. Dee is the only one that attempts that, but usually gets swallowed up in the D. So frustrating to watch this team right now.

ArizonaXUGrad
02-05-2015, 11:05 AM
There are some people who seem to give sUCks a hard time about their shooters. This team's shooters aren't much better.

This team has the shooting talent. Mack needs to adjust his offense to get these guys open shots. I really think the talent is there for both a great offensive team and a decent defensive squad. I think we lack the coaching to get it done. At this point, I am wondering if it's a lack of quality assistants or Mack himself. I don't really know. He has been here for a while and is having troubles that other good coaches don't.

Masterofreality
02-05-2015, 11:15 AM
I couldn't agree more.

Look, I get the virtue in the hedge. I do. If it can be pulled off, it's the most effective way of stopping the most prominent offensive play (the pick and roll) in basketball.

To hedge requires basically two things: (1) a big that is capable enough of hedging and then retreating quickly enough to get back in position and (2) the three defenders uninvolved in the pick to cover four guys momentarily through a series of rotations while the hedging big guy recovers.

Guess what. We can't do either. Our bigs are either too slow (Matt) or too unskilled defensively (Farr and Reynolds) to pull off number 1. And our other defenders simply lack the defensive talent and instinct to handle the rotations.

Our inability to handle this situation leads to two things: (1) teams can move the ball ahead of our rotation for open 3s (this, more than anything else, is why we are 238th in three point defense %) and (2) our defenders are in a jumbled up mess when shots go up and totally out of position for rebounds (our guys are bad enough at rebounding to try to do it out of position).

They don't have the personnel to play how the coach wants to play. They just don't. And if Mack and the Gumchompers don't realize that and keep doing the same things over and over and over with ill-fitting personnel, then that's on them.

100% in all respects. Good expanded explanation.

We're past the point where the mistakes that are made because of a "learning curve". It has become abundantly clear through 23 games that this team's personnel is ill suited to this defensive concept. Time to change and if the staff hard headedly keep using the same thing, torchings will continue.

nuts4xu
02-05-2015, 11:18 AM
Guess what. We can't do either. Our bigs are either too slow (Matt) or too unskilled defensively (Farr and Reynolds) to pull off number 1. And our other defenders simply lack the defensive talent and instinct to handle the rotations.


This isn't new either. You could have said this about most of our teams the past few years. I listened to the post game show with Chris Mack, and it was the first time I have ever heard him acknowledge the hedge wasn't working. We have used the hedge - whether it is working or not - for so long it blows my mind. Some coaches are so committed to using what they think is best, they fail to adjust to the match ups and to what is happening in a game. It took Mack forever this season before he even thought about using a zone defense....even when our man to man was getting torched.

The better teams keep their opponents guessing and mix things up to present a different look. Doing the same thing over and over, and expecting different results, is THE definition of insanity.

We keep hedging, and keep getting burned on our defense, we will have a tough time winning any games in this conference. Everyone has seemed to figure it out.

boozehound
02-05-2015, 11:26 AM
This isn't new either. You could have said this about most of our teams the past few years. I listened to the post game show with Chris Mack, and it was the first time I have ever heard him acknowledge the hedge wasn't working. We have used the hedge - whether it is working or not - for so long it blows my mind. Some coaches are so committed to using what they think is best, they fail to adjust to the match ups and to what is happening in a game. It took Mack forever this season before he even thought about using a zone defense....even when our man to man was getting torched.

The better teams keep their opponents guessing and mix things up to present a different look. Doing the same thing over and over, and expecting different results, is THE definition of insanity.

We keep hedging, and keep getting burned on our defense, we will have a tough time winning any games in this conference. Everyone has seemed to figure it out.

Well said. If you want to completely marry yourself to a system, offensive or defensive, then you need to take ONLY players that fit your system. When you start recruiting best available players and then try to force them to run a specific offense or defense you get what we are witnessing. Take stock of your players and develop a system around them, or tweak your existing system. If you have 3 bigs, none of whom can hedge, then don't hedge. I don't know what Mack is seeing in practice, or games, that is leading him to believe that his defensive philosophy is going to suddenly start working.

LA Muskie
02-05-2015, 12:09 PM
Creighton didn't exactly light the nets on fire. Our defense sucked but we still could and would have won if we executed our offense. We can't seem to find a bucket lately. Dead legs, I suspect.

Xavier
02-05-2015, 01:40 PM
At the beginning of the year I thought the Brazil trip really got this team working well together. A lot of talk about dead legs- maybe the team is just tired. I don't think thats the case but still can't tell if the Brazil trip helped or hurt. In the long run it probably did nothing basketball wise but hopefully made an impact on the guys outside of basketball.

XUFan09
02-05-2015, 01:49 PM
They did a marvelous job of booking mediocre to terrible defensive teams for the OOC portion of the schedule. .

Yeah, that #27 non-conference SOS really sucked.

XUFan09
02-05-2015, 01:51 PM
Creighton didn't exactly light the nets on fire. Our defense sucked but we still could and would have won if we executed our offense. We can't seem to find a bucket lately. Dead legs, I suspect.

Yeah, Kreklow started off 4-4 (the first three were open), but the rest of the way Creighton was 6-20. Not exactly amazing.

GoMuskies
02-05-2015, 01:52 PM
Yeah, that #27 non-conference SOS really sucked.

Speaking of, Murray State will become the 11th member of the 20 win club tonight.

drudy23
02-05-2015, 01:52 PM
At the beginning of the year I thought the Brazil trip really got this team working well together. A lot of talk about dead legs- maybe the team is just tired. I don't think thats the case but still can't tell if the Brazil trip helped or hurt. In the long run it probably did nothing basketball wise but hopefully made an impact on the guys outside of basketball.

BS

LA Muskie
02-05-2015, 01:53 PM
Yeah, that #27 non-conference SOS really sucked.
Not sure where you're getting that number. KenPom has us at #116 for non-conference SOS.

paulxu
02-05-2015, 02:05 PM
Current OOC SOS is 53. Expected is 27.

http://www.rpiforecast.com/teams/Xavier.html

American X
02-05-2015, 03:55 PM
Mack and the Gumchompers

Isn't that the name of Kahns Krazy's Air Supply tribute band?

casualfan
02-05-2015, 07:44 PM
Yeah, that #27 non-conference SOS really sucked.

Did you not see where it said defensive teams?

You can play a bunch of good teams that are mediocre to poor defensively.

LA Muskie
02-05-2015, 08:07 PM
Did you not see where it said defensive teams?

You can play a bunch of good teams that are mediocre to poor defensively.
That may be true. But that's not the case here. In our OOC schedule (which is where we built up our offensive efficiency numbers):

Alabama is a Top 100 defensive team (KenPom #56)
San Diego is a Top 100 defensive team (KenPom #62)
LBSU is a Top 100 defensive team (KenPom #84)
UTEP is a Top 100 defensive team (KenPom #89)
FGCU is a Top 100 defensive team (KenPom #92)
Stephen F. Austin is an above-average defensive team (KenPom #109)
IUPUI is an above-average defensive team (KenPom #116)
Auburn is an above-average defensive team (KenPom #138)
Missouri is an average defensive team (KenPom #158)
Murray St. is an average defensive team (KenPom #188)

We've only played one bad defensive team -- Northern Arizona (KenPom #217) in our first game.

IM4X
02-06-2015, 12:31 AM
100% in all respects. Good expanded explanation.

We're past the point where the mistakes that are made because of a "learning curve". It has become abundantly clear through 23 games that this team's personnel is ill suited to this defensive concept. Time to change and if the staff hard headedly keep using the same thing, torchings will continue.

Absolutely.

IM4X
02-06-2015, 12:47 AM
This isn't new either. You could have said this about most of our teams the past few years. I listened to the post game show with Chris Mack, and it was the first time I have ever heard him acknowledge the hedge wasn't working. We have used the hedge - whether it is working or not - for so long it blows my mind. Some coaches are so committed to using what they think is best, they fail to adjust to the match ups and to what is happening in a game. It took Mack forever this season before he even thought about using a zone defense....even when our man to man was getting torched.

The better teams keep their opponents guessing and mix things up to present a different look. Doing the same thing over and over, and expecting different results, is THE definition of insanity.

We keep hedging, and keep getting burned on our defense, we will have a tough time winning any games in this conference. Everyone has seemed to figure it out.

You are so right!!!! He refused to admit to himself that his schemes might actually not be a good fit for his players and this stubbornness has gone on for years.

Personally, I have never really been comfortable with Mack's decision making since Kelsey left. Just saying.

XUFan09
02-06-2015, 02:56 AM
That may be true. But that's not the case here. In our OOC schedule (which is where we built up our offensive efficiency numbers):

Alabama is a Top 100 defensive team (KenPom #56)
San Diego is a Top 100 defensive team (KenPom #62)
LBSU is a Top 100 defensive team (KenPom #84)
UTEP is a Top 100 defensive team (KenPom #89)
FGCU is a Top 100 defensive team (KenPom #92)
Stephen F. Austin is an above-average defensive team (KenPom #109)
IUPUI is an above-average defensive team (KenPom #116)
Auburn is an above-average defensive team (KenPom #138)
Missouri is an average defensive team (KenPom #158)
Murray St. is an average defensive team (KenPom #188)

We've only played one bad defensive team -- Northern Arizona (KenPom #217) in our first game.

The immediate (and reasonable) reaction is to suppose that the Big East defenses are still better. Villanova, Butler, and Georgetown have better defenses than any of those listed (#12, #18, and #33), but everyone else is in line with our non-conference opponents.

#53 St. John's (in line with Alabama and San Diego)
#82 Seton Hall (LBSU, UTEP, and FGCU)
#83 Providence (Ditto)
#88 Marquette (Ditto)
#135 Creighton (Auburn)
#208 DePaul (Northern Arizona)

The average defensive ranking of our non-conference opponents is also very similar to #4-10 in the Big East. Also, in the four games versus those top 3 defenses, three on the road, Xavier scored 1.11, 1.12, 1.12, and 1.00 points per possession.

By the way, our ranking in adjusted offensive efficiency actually improved in conference play. The offense was ranked in the 20s coming into conference play but then moved up into the teens and as high as the single digits for a couple games at one point. The current ranking, 19th, was after scoring 1.00 points per possession at home versus a defense outside the top 100, and that is the closest this team has come in conference play to their rank in the non-conference.

KFX
02-06-2015, 12:31 PM
Yeah, Kreklow started off 4-4 (the first three were open), but the rest of the way Creighton was 6-20. Not exactly amazing.

hmmm... that's 41% from 3. I would take that number.

XUFan09
02-06-2015, 12:36 PM
hmmm... that's 41% from 3. I would take that number.

Oh I definitely would take it too. I'm just saying that we shouldn't act as if they were lights out from three, hitting like 2 out of every 3 shots, and that led to the loss. Xavier lost because partly because Creighton played a good game but mostly because Xavier was terrible in a number of areas.

KFX
02-06-2015, 12:39 PM
Also agree with Meuth's analysis above. As XU 09 points out three of Kreklow's threes were basically uncontested where our defense is running the fire drill and chasing the pass. How many times have we failed to close out the jump shooter this season? Also, I don't care if it is Kenny Frease or Matt Stainbrook, I don't want to see a slow of foot center 20 feet from the hoop. When that happens at least two more switches are required and that creates shooting opportunities.

Go X. ( is there a bustle in our hedge row?)

X Factor
02-06-2015, 12:53 PM
Also agree with Meuth's analysis above. As XU 09 points out three of Kreklow's threes were basically uncontested where our defense is running the fire drill and chasing the pass. How many times have we failed to close out the jump shooter this season? Also, I don't care if it is Kenny Frease or Matt Stainbrook, I don't want to see a slow of foot center 20 feet from the hoop. When that happens at least two more switches are required and that creates shooting opportunities.

Go X. ( is there a bustle in our hedge row?)

Kenny was A LOT better at hedging than Stain. Fact.

KFX
02-06-2015, 01:02 PM
Kenny was A LOT better at hedging than Stain. Fact.

Okay! How is Germany treating you Ken?

XUFan09
02-06-2015, 01:31 PM
Kenny was A LOT better at hedging than Stain. Fact.
This is true. People complained a lot about Kenny's hedging but it really didn't cause that many problems and was a net positive for how it disrupted the ball screen. I also think Stain was better at hedging last year than this year, strangely enough.

X-Fan
02-06-2015, 01:45 PM
This is true. People complained a lot about Kenny's hedging but it really didn't cause that many problems and was a net positive for how it disrupted the ball screen. I also think Stain was better at hedging last year than this year, strangely enough.

I don't know. I remember Kenny picking up quick/cheap fouls quite often when hedging. Naturally he seemed to finally "get it" the end of his Senior year.

I agree that hedging seems ineffective anymore. I don't think Matt/Jalen/James do it that poorly, just as a group X doesn't handle the reaction of the offense. As others have said, it just sets off a chaos of guys tring to get back to their spots, and it normally leads to a WIDE OPEN 3pt attempt, or the guard splits the hedge to get an easy layup/and1.

IMO, the guys have been more effective in Man to Man than anything else lately. Yes, some guys get beat, but if you have Jalen down there to smartly protect the rim you can live with the occasional breakdown. Wouldn't it be better to give up 3 or 4 mid range/contested 2pt shots, instead of 10+ open 3pt shots? I know that's over simplifying things, but I don't think I'm too far off base.

American X
02-06-2015, 01:48 PM
Does anyone recall if Xavier used the hedge when Jason Love was playing center?