The Coach Chris Mack Reality Thread

[XfansinKy]

OK, I'll give. For that question I'm sure Mack isn't happy. I'm sure the team isn't performing like he, or they, hoped at this point.

But what keeps getting me is the constant drumming of we have only made the NCAA's once in three years...totally giving up on this year already to make that statement. (Might not have been you particularly saying that). We haven't finished this year. We've been 8 out of the last 9. Only Villanova has that record with us. I'm willing to wait a while before I give up on the season, or team, or coach.
I agree. This team has some big time talent too. Let's not forget this is the best recruiting class ever at Xavier. Let's let this season play out. If we miss the tournament and Mack is then on the hot seat, I will not complain. Until then, at least for me, there is still hope this thing gets turned around.

[RedsX11]

I agree. This team has some big time talent too. Let's not forget this is the best recruiting class ever at Xavier. Let's let this season play out. If we miss the tournament and Mack is then on the hot seat, I will not complain. Until then, at least for me, there is still hope this thing gets turned around.


So this post kind of summarizes the conflict that on a regular basis plays out in my head. We are in a situation where I was certainly one of the early ones to call out things that I did not like about Chris Mack teams. Admittedly I tend to lean more towards a pessimistic view point in all things, especially sports so it all fell on deaf ears. Maybe even deservedly so. But what is irritating 2/3 of the way through this season is that this team is like the others. The response of so many of you was to wait until this season/recruiting class. They would fix everything. It is a top 10 class that is going to put us back on the map. Now that they are here we are supposed to accept mediocrity because they are freshman? Why do I hear about freshman at other schools doing just fine? Why are we going to talk yet again next season about how we can't win on the road and our teams are rarely ready to play? I'm tired of the excuses. The man is not taking us to where we want to be. Period. After this year it has been 6 years. How long do you get before it is no longer considered taboo to say you don't like the man? Is our goal to someday contend for a national championship? Does anyone think he is going to be the one to do it? Stop accepting mediocrity, and to some of you who don't think that is what this is, stop living in denial. We have plateaued. Changes need to happen, either with him losing his job or with him losing his current coaching philosophy.

[waggy]

I have plateaued. Changes need to happen.

I concur.

[waggy]

Well that might not fall on deaf ears.


Hahahahahahaha.

[waggy]

Also amazing is that you have exactly 11 red X's, just like your screenname.

[LadyMuskie]

Oh my God. Not cool.

[xu82]

Since I believe the nonsense above will take care of itself in good time, I will move on and say that not allowing a coach to work with his best recruiting class to see what becomes of it is silly and shortsighted. Some of these guys haven't even seen the court yet! There are things that frustrate me, but I'm not as easily agitated as some others (see above).

PS - Say hi to Art V. for us.

[Titanxman04]

Uhhh, it's a message board, buddy. Basketball is not that serious.



PS - Say hi to Art V. for us.

Yup. You two can hang out in anger management together.

[nuts4xu]

Lighten Up Francis....

[xubrew]

I tend to notice general trends in college hoops. It's a symptom of watching too much of it.

One general trend is that young teams that are home court heroes but can't beat anyone once they cross the street tend to be VERY good the following year. Take last year's Virginia team for instance. Or this year's Northern Iowa team.

Now, before all the pessimists go off and list several examples where that wasn't the case, let me point out (again) that I said it was a GENERAL trend.

[casualfan]

I tend to notice general trends in college hoops. It's a symptom of watching too much of it.

One general trend is that young teams that are home court heroes but can't beat anyone once they cross the street tend to be VERY good the following year. Take last year's Virginia team for instance. Or this year's Northern Iowa team.

Now, before all the pessimists go off and list several examples where that wasn't the case, let me point out (again) that I said it was a GENERAL trend.

Is this really a young team though? 4 of our top 7 mpg players are upperclassmen (Dee, Stain, Remy, and Farr). 2 of the other three are third year sophomores.

[XU 87]

I expect that you and your posts will be banned in the near future. That said, I suggest you grow up a bit.

[Titanxman04]

Is this really a young team though? 4 of our top 7 mpg players are upperclassmen (Dee, Stain, Remy, and Farr). 2 of the other three are third year sophomores.

I would say that half our team are first or second year players. That's a young team.

[casualfan]

I would say that half our team are first or second year players. That's a young team.

Hmm. Not sure I agree here.

In a sport where you get 4 years to play you should expect to have half your roster be first and second year players. That's not young. It's right where it should be.

[xubrew]

Is this really a young team though? 4 of our top 7 mpg players are upperclassmen (Dee, Stain, Remy, and Farr). 2 of the other three are third year sophomores.

Good point.

We're young, but we're not so young that we should be struggling on the road at this degree. If we win tonight, it changes the complexion of everything.

[XU 87]

I'm in the "team is not real young" side. X has primarily started 2 seniors, two juniors, and a freshman. Two sophomores get a far amount of Pt, but both played a significant amount last year. And they are both in their early 20's.

[Smails]

Every now and again I log on to this site and come away feeling really good about myself. This would be one of those times. There is nothing on this earth more self-inflating than to read the musings of a homophobic internet tough guy. Pure gold I tell ya

[LA Muskie]

I don't think we're necessarily "young" overall. But we rely a lot on our newer players. Trevon and Remy in particular, JP to a lesser extent.

Of course we can claim "young" again next year, with at least 3 more "new" players, at least 2 of which will hopefully be in featured roles.

[xuwin]

2 Sr's, 2 Jr's, 3 Soph's & 6 Freshmen. One of the Jr's (Abel) had no game experience with Xavier prior to this year and 2 of the freshmen are being redshirted for either injury or developmental reasons. Of the 13 scholarship players 9 of the 13 are classified freshmen or sophomores. That is a young team. The only two players coming back that played a significant amount of time last year were the 2 seniors.

[xudash]

2 Sr's, 2 Jr's, 3 Soph's & 6 Freshmen. One of the Jr's (Abel) had no game experience with Xavier prior to this year and 2 of the freshmen are being redshirted for either injury or developmental reasons. Of the 13 scholarship players 9 of the 13 are classified freshmen or sophomores. That is a young team. The only two players coming back that played a significant amount of time last year were the 2 seniors.

This.

[LA Muskie]

2 Sr's, 2 Jr's, 3 Soph's & 6 Freshmen. One of the Jr's (Abel) had no game experience with Xavier prior to this year and 2 of the freshmen are being redshirted for either injury or developmental reasons. Of the 13 scholarship players 9 of the 13 are classified freshmen or sophomores. That is a young team. The only two players coming back that played a significant amount of time last year were the 2 seniors.

Playing devil's advocate, of those 6 freshmen only 2 play meaningful minutes (and of those, the minutes for one of them -- JP -- are sporadic). On the other hand, our experienced players are playing the vast majority of our minutes -- particularly since the conference season started.

I don't think we are unusually "young". We almost always have a ton of experience on the court at any one time.

[xubrew]

This thread is slowly making me feel worse and worse about this team. Thank you everyone.

[bleedXblue]

I'm hoping next year we can dispel the young team moniker.

It's wins and losses that really only matter.

I sort of feel like...........what will the excuse be next year if we don't significantly improve from where we've been the last 3 years?

[LA Muskie]

This thread is slowly making me feel worse and worse about this team. Thank you everyone.

Then you certainly don't want me to point out that this "young" team will need to replace its star senior center and underrated, solid senior PG -- neither of which presently appears to have a viable replacement, and the latter of which has been forced to play 35 mpg as a result.

PS: Oh, and they are our two best playmakers. By a fairly healthy margin.

[Cheesehead]

Then you certainly don't want me to point out that this "young" team will need to replace its star senior center and underrated, solid senior PG -- neither of which presently appears to have a viable replacement, and the latter of which has been forced to play 35 mpg as a result.

PS: Oh, and they are our two best playmakers. By a fairly healthy margin.

Damn you, La Muskie. Damn you.

[D-West & PO-Z]

Then you certainly don't want me to point out that this "young" team will need to replace its star senior center and underrated, solid senior PG -- neither of which presently appears to have a viable replacement, and the latter of which has been forced to play 35 mpg as a result.

PS: Oh, and they are our two best playmakers. By a fairly healthy margin.

I am more concerned about center than PG. I think between Austin, Randolph, and Sumner one of those guys will step up next year.

Our only true center is O'mara. Farr and Reynolds will have to play a lot next year and stay out of foul trouble.

[casualfan]

I am more concerned about center than PG. I think between Austin, Randolph, and Sumner one of those guys will step up next year.

Our only true center is O'mara. Farr and Reynolds will have to play a lot next year and stay out of foul trouble.

I was thinking about this earlier. I do think Jalen is a perfectly capable 5 at the college level, but as you mentioned fouls could be an issue.

I'm hopeful O'Mara makes a big jump or we get a juco or 5th year transfer. Otherwise we could end up playing small quite a bit.

[xubrew]

Then you certainly don't want me to point out that this "young" team will need to replace its star senior center and underrated, solid senior PG -- neither of which presently appears to have a viable replacement, and the latter of which has been forced to play 35 mpg as a result.

PS: Oh, and they are our two best playmakers. By a fairly healthy margin.

So, we are essentially the Providence Friars prior to Ed Cooley. We recruit talented players, but it doesn't seem to come together like we were hopoing. We can't win a notable OOC game. We can win a few notable conference games, but only at home. And....that's really it.

[X-Fan]

2 Sr's, 2 Jr's, 3 Soph's & 6 Freshmen. One of the Jr's (Abel) had no game experience with Xavier prior to this year and 2 of the freshmen are being redshirted for either injury or developmental reasons. Of the 13 scholarship players 9 of the 13 are classified freshmen or sophomores. That is a young team. The only two players coming back that played a significant amount of time last year were the 2 seniors.
Ok, a couple things regarding this "are we young or not" debate.

In my opinion, as a whole, we ARE young. It's surprising to me that some get upset about the D, but refuse to acknowledge you're only as strong as your weakest link. What I mean by that, is if you have two freshmen on the court who play horrible D (because of inexperience) then it doesn't matter that you have three other guys who play good D. One lapse by the younger guys, kills the whole defensive possession.

Now, I also do not make excuses for Coach Mack, so yes, we need to see results soon. However I will give him the benefit of the doubt. While we would like to see the program smoothly transition into a way better conference AND recover from the Wells fallout...it's not overly realistic. With that said, X finished 3rd last year! I get it, we expect excellence from our program. We want every team to play like the 2004 and 2008 teams. But when X went from the MCC to the A10 I was crazy patient. We all saw the talent that was out there in the 95-96 team. I see the same thing in this team. We are a victim of our expectations. Dee was not a top rated recruit, and neither was Matt. They are guys that have made themselves into very good players. Remy is in his first year with X (and doing very well). James is a Junior but is just developing into the role we need. So, you're telling me, because of those guys we should be WAY better? Come on. Seriously.

Not sure how much merit this holds, but look at it this way.
This team has a total of 9 seasons playing for X (Dee has 3, James has 2, and so on).
Next years team will have a total of 14 years playing for X, and that's with losing 6 years from Dee and Matt. Again, not excuses. I'm just trying to illustrate that you cannot discount experience in terms of playing together and playing in Xavier's system.

Myles should be better, he's a Sophomore. Tell that to the Sophomore version of BJ Raymond.

Trevon should be getting way more touches and scoring more. Tell that to the Freshman version of Myles Davis.

Coach is trying to mold these guys into an identity. The main reason we HAD to keep Mack this past off-season was because of this years Freshmen class. The other reason is because Mack is a Xavier Man. Dude bleeds blue. Will it happen this year? Not sure. But with all the talent on this team, it will happen this year or next year. If it doesn't then that's a conversation for later...when X has 14 years playing in our system instead of 9.

[PMI]

I am more concerned about center than PG. I think between Austin, Randolph, and Sumner one of those guys will step up next year.

Our only true center is O'mara. Farr and Reynolds will have to play a lot next year and stay out of foul trouble.

I just think it's significantly more important to have a good point guard than a good center. A good center is a luxury but in the Big East you absolutely need a good point. Perhaps someone will play the position out of necessity and make up for what we lose with Dee by providing more scoring and size, but I think anyone who has their reasons not to be Dee fans might realize early on next year that we don't have it so bad at all with him.

[LA Muskie]

So, we are essentially the Providence Friars prior to Ed Cooley. We recruit talented players, but it doesn't seem to come together like we were hopoing. We can't win a notable OOC game. We can win a few notable conference games, but only at home. And....that's really it.

Hey...I certainly didn't say that. At least not out loud. On a Muskie message board. The day of a big game.

[D-West & PO-Z]

I just think it's significantly more important to have a good point guard than a good center. A good center is a luxury but in the Big East you absolutely need a good point. Perhaps someone will play the position out of necessity and make up for what we lose with Dee by providing more scoring and size, but I think anyone who has their reasons not to be Dee fans might realize early on next year that we don't have it so bad at all with him.

Yeah I agree with PG being more important, I guess I am more concerned with the depth of the frontcourt than the backcourt. I guess that wasnt the discussion though. Farr and Reynolds will have to play a lot without fouling next year. We only need 1 of 3 guys to really step up for PG next year and hop the other two develop enough to contribute.

But I think you are right, I think we will really be missing Dee Davis next year.

[LA Muskie]

Yeah I agree with PG being more important, I guess I am more concerned with the depth of the frontcourt than the backcourt. I guess that wasnt the discussion though. Farr and Reynolds will have to play a lot without fouling next year. We only need 1 of 3 guys to really step up for PG next year and hop the other two develop enough to contribute.

But I think you are right, I think we will really be missing Dee Davis next year.
I have absolutely no doubt we will be missing Dee -- a lot -- next year. There's a reason he's playing 35 mgp in the Big East, that Austin and Brandon have both gone multiple games as DNP-Coach's Decision, and that Myles has quietly become our backup PG.

That said, I also thing we're going to miss Stain A TON next year. Jalen and Farr are both talented, but none of them are the type to muscle down low. So unless O'Mara makes a huge jump in the off season, it means we are either committed to having Jalen and Farr play together, or going small. I don't think either situation would be disastrous, but we would need to hit our shots at a much better clip than we've been hitting them in BE play. And without this year's two best playmakers to get the ball to the right guys in the right situations.

[XfansinKy]

If anybody is worried about point guard play next year I got 2 words for ya... Sumner is a beast.

[waggy]

If anybody is worried about point guard play next year I got 2 words for ya... Sumner is a beast.


Does he have a 3 point shot though?

[XUFan09]

Our team is ranked is ranked 229th in Experience by Kenpom at 1.53 years (basically halfway between a sophomore and a junior). He weights Experience for minutes played, with freshmen getting 0 years, sophomores getting 1 year, and so on. They're not really young, but they are pretty young. That definitely hurts us on defense and on the road. I still think the defense should be a bit better and I still think we shouldn't have lost at Auburn and at DePaul (and definitely not both!).

[XUFan09]

Does he have a 3 point shot though?

I believe he was hitting over 40% from 3 in his last year of high school. Obviously, high school performance should be taken with a grain of salt, but I think shooting is one of those things that reasonably translates. The extra foot of distance doesn't really affect good shooters, but he'll face better contests on shots than in high school.

[xavierj]

To be honest I do not expect xavier to miss Matt much. Teams today are more likely to have quick under sized guys inside who can step outside, shoot and take guys off the dribble. Matt is a liability against teams like that. Matt does fine when he gets to guard big lumbering centers who can't blow by him or force him to guard outside. That is wh Xavier really struggles against Villanova and a big reason why they lost to DePaul, Butler and Utep. All three of those teams had big guys who could shoot and also take Matt off the dribble. I think next year Xavier plays more of Makinde and less of a traditional canter like Matt or O'Mara. Xavier will just be much more athletic and long next year than they have been in a while.

[94GRAD]

I would much rather have a traditional center with the basketball IQ Matt has than a long/athletic player with no basketball IQ

[XfansinKy]

Does he have a 3 point shot though?

His 3 point shot on YouTube looks kinda like an old school set shot but he does go near 6'7 nowadays from what I hear. Hopefully that height and his long arms allow him to get his feet set and shoot it as slow as he needs. IMO he is the one who has the NBA skillset and length.

[LA Muskie]

To be honest I do not expect xavier to miss Matt much. Teams today are more likely to have quick under sized guys inside who can step outside, shoot and take guys off the dribble. Matt is a liability against teams like that. Matt does fine when he gets to guard big lumbering centers who can't blow by him or force him to guard outside. That is wh Xavier really struggles against Villanova and a big reason why they lost to DePaul, Butler and Utep. All three of those teams had big guys who could shoot and also take Matt off the dribble. I think next year Xavier plays more of Makinde and less of a traditional canter like Matt or O'Mara. Xavier will just be much more athletic and long next year than they have been in a while.
I think you are vastly under-valuing Matt if you don't think we are going to miss him all that much. I agree he is a defensive liability, but he is the wheel through which just about everything passes on offense.

Now I don't necessarily disagree that the trend is for quicker, more athletic bigs who can step out and hit a jumper. But if that's the alternative to Matt, we don't really seem to have that next year either. I'm certainly not putting my money on a redshirt freshman to come in and replace Matt's productivity. I don't even think the combination of Makinde and any incremental growth in Jalen and Farr will do so.

[xavierj]

I would much rather have a traditional center with the basketball IQ Matt has than a long/athletic player with no basketball IQ

Why can't you have both. Has Xavier ever made a deep run or was very successful with a traditional, slow center? They won't be this year either. Xavier teams were strong when they relied on athletic, quick guards and power forwards who could shoot the ball. There are not many Matt Stainbrook types tearing up college basketball these days. Look around, it's all about athleticism.

[XUFan09]

If Makinde ever plays at the five next year, we are having some serious injury or foul trouble.

It might be different if he were considered a high level rebounder.

[LA Muskie]

Why can't you have both. Has Xavier ever made a deep run or was very successful with a traditional, slow center? They won't be this year either. Xavier teams were strong when they relied on athletic, quick guards and power forwards who could shoot the ball. There are not many Matt Stainbrook types tearing up college basketball these days. Look around, it's all about athleticism.
I don't put a lot of stock in what prior Xavier teams have done. They had different personnel. Different coaching. Each team really rises and falls on its own merits, not the history of Xavier basketball.

Regardless, you said you don't think we'll miss Matt all that much next year. Even if the bolded part above is true, do you really think we have the type of forwards you think we need to play the style you seem to want to play? Don't get me wrong -- I loved those Xavier teams. But I don't see that personnel next year. I guess theoretically Trevon could play the 4 nearly full-time, but then we have defensive issues. And I'm not sure we have the guard play we would need at 1-3.

[xufan2434]

To be honest I do not expect xavier to miss Matt much. Teams today are more likely to have quick under sized guys inside who can step outside, shoot and take guys off the dribble. Matt is a liability against teams like that. Matt does fine when he gets to guard big lumbering centers who can't blow by him or force him to guard outside. That is wh Xavier really struggles against Villanova and a big reason why they lost to DePaul, Butler and Utep. All three of those teams had big guys who could shoot and also take Matt off the dribble. I think next year Xavier plays more of Makinde and less of a traditional canter like Matt or O'Mara. Xavier will just be much more athletic and long next year than they have been in a while.

Agree with this a lot... I used to be worried about playing teams with monsters inside when X got to the tournament. But honestly besides Josh Smith and everyone on UK, there aren't that many of them anymore. I love Matt and his passing is great. But he also makes some bad passes and gets burned a LOT on defense. We are definitely going to miss him, but no one has any idea what kind of jumps guys can make. The biggest jump is usually from freshman to sophomore year.. Trevon, Remy, Myles, JP are all going to be better. Myles is already significantly better than last year. I expect Trevon and JP to make huge strides. Frontcourt depth is going to be an issue, but people also keep waiting for Jalen to to explode. Maybe that happens next year when he's the guy. O'Mara has shown he can give quality minutes without screwing up. Add another year and he'll have positive influence on the game.

[XU 87]

If Makinde ever plays at the five next year, we are having some serious injury or foul trouble.

It might be different if he were considered a high level rebounder.

Does anyone remember how big Aaron Williams got in between his freshman and sophomore years? I'm not saying Makinde can get that much bigger in such a short time period, or if he even has the frame to do so, but it can be done.

[LA Muskie]

Agree with this a lot... I used to be worried about playing teams with monsters inside when X got to the tournament. But honestly besides Josh Smith and everyone on UK, there aren't that many of them anymore. I love Matt and his passing is great. But he also makes some bad passes and gets burned a LOT on defense. We are definitely going to miss him, but no one has any idea what kind of jumps guys can make. The biggest jump is usually from freshman to sophomore year.. Trevon, Remy, Myles, JP are all going to be better. Myles is already significantly better than last year. I expect Trevon and JP to make huge strides. Frontcourt depth is going to be an issue, but people also keep waiting for Jalen to to explode. Maybe that happens next year when he's the guy. O'Mara has shown he can give quality minutes without screwing up. Add another year and he'll have positive influence on the game.
I agree that Matt's defense is atrocious. It's easily the worst part of his game, and it has caused us significant problems this year. As for the passing, anyone who passes the ball out of the paint at the rate he does is going to have TO's. They come with the territory. Frankly, most big men make the occasional bone-headed pass out of the post. I don't think he is much of an outsider in that regard. At the same time, very few make up for it with the buckets he generates (assists and passes leading to assists). He more than makes up for his TO's (although, obviously, they are still painful to watch).

I agree we should see a lot of growth out of several guys next year. But I wouldn't minimize the likely effect of losing Matt (or Dee). There's a reason they are the #1 and #3 players in MPG this year, while (between the two of them) leading the team in nearly every statistical category.

[markchal]

Why can't you have both. Has Xavier ever made a deep run or was very successful with a traditional, slow center? They won't be this year either.

Jason Love? Anthony Myles? Kenny was on one of our S16 teams. This is complete lunacy to me. This team is going to miss Stainbrook a ton. Our offense runs through him and revolves around his scoring and his passing. He does things that none of our other bigs can do and is way more consistent than either of the other two regulars despite getting far more defensive attention.

[XUFan09]

Why can't you have both. Has Xavier ever made a deep run or was very successful with a traditional, slow center?

Jason Love played about half the minutes on the 2008 (Elite Eight) and 2009 (Sweet 16) teams, often as a starter, followed by significantly more minutes on the 2010 (Sweet 16) team. Kenny Frease took almost all the remaining center minutes on the 2009 and 2010 teams and started on the 2012 (Sweet 16) team.

[waggy]

If every big had Jason Love's attitude and work ethic X would be in very good position.

Does anyone know if he's getting paid to play now?

[xufan2434]

I agree that Matt's defense is atrocious. It's easily the worst part of his game, and it has caused us significant problems this year. As for the passing, anyone who passes the ball out of the paint at the rate he does is going to have TO's. They come with the territory. Frankly, most big men make the occasional bone-headed pass out of the post. I don't think he is much of an outsider in that regard. At the same time, very few make up for it with the buckets he generates (assists and passes leading to assists). He more than makes up for his TO's (although, obviously, they are still painful to watch).

I agree we should see a lot of growth out of several guys next year. But I wouldn't minimize the likely effect of losing Matt (or Dee). There's a reason they are the #1 and #3 players in MPG this year, while (between the two of them) leading the team in nearly every statistical category.

While I agree, offense going through Matt is great. I welcome any team to double him. It always means a bucket for X. But I think people are looking at this the wrong way. Our offense is the way it is because of him. X runs through the post because of who he is. All this means, is that Mack is going to have to run different kinds of sets next year. It isn't like X has had a big man like Matt every year that can pass and it's the only offense they know how to run...

With the strength being Trevon, Myles, Remy, and JP next year, they're going to be running a lot more baseline cutters with more movement on offense. Just because X is losing Matt doesn't mean the offense is going to stink.. it means it will need to be run differently.

[X-Fan]

If every big had Jason Love's attitude and work ethic X would be in very good position.

Does anyone know if he's getting paid to play now?
Thanks to the Interwebs it looks like Jason is still playing.

http://www.monshainaut.be/fr/mod/joueur-27-jason-love.html

Site shows that he's averaging 12 pts & 10 rpg. Get after it Jason!

[xubrew]

Hey...I certainly didn't say that. At least not out loud. On a Muskie message board. The day of a big game.

It's a rather disturbing realization.

We need to win tonight. A win tonight changes the complexion of everything.

[xu82]

I'm hoping next year we can dispel the young team moniker.


I'm hoping by February and March we have done a lot of growing, gained some confidence and look a lot less like freshman. Having said that replacing Dee and the guy you basically run the offense through (Matt) is not as easy as it sounds. They may be just two guys, but they're two very important guys on this team. What does the offense look like without Stain? Something very different.

[waggy]

Thanks to the Interwebs it looks like Jason is still playing.

http://www.monshainaut.be/fr/mod/joueur-27-jason-love.html

Site shows that he's averaging 12 pts & 10 rpg. Get after it Jason!


That was fast. Thanks & reps.

Really glad to see that for Jason. Another all-time great Muskie.

[D-West & PO-Z]

To be honest I do not expect xavier to miss Matt much. Teams today are more likely to have quick under sized guys inside who can step outside, shoot and take guys off the dribble. Matt is a liability against teams like that. Matt does fine when he gets to guard big lumbering centers who can't blow by him or force him to guard outside. That is wh Xavier really struggles against Villanova and a big reason why they lost to DePaul, Butler and Utep. All three of those teams had big guys who could shoot and also take Matt off the dribble. I think next year Xavier plays more of Makinde and less of a traditional canter like Matt or O'Mara. Xavier will just be much more athletic and long next year than they have been in a while.

I think you are undervaluing what he does but to me its not as much as even missing the particular player as it is missing a good, reliable frontcourt player who isnt going to be in foul trouble. Farr and Reynolds will have to really step it up next year.

[xufan2434]

I'm hoping by February and March we have done a lot of growing, gained some confidence and look a lot less like freshman. Having said that replacing Dee and the guy you basically run the offense through (Matt) is not as easy as it sounds. They may be just two guys, but they're two very important guys on this team. What does the offense look like without Stain? Something very different.

This doesn't always mean worse... What was X's offense like in 04, 08, 10? They're all a little bit different. The coach plays to the strength of the team. Trevon is gonna be a stud for this team next year and with him being the best player, yes the offense will look very different.

[markchal]

This doesn't always mean worse... What was X's offense like in 04, 08, 10? They're all a little bit different. The coach plays to the strength of the team. Trevon is gonna be a stud for this team next year and with him being the best player, yes the offense will look very different.

Look at our offense right now when Stainbrook is out of the game? It's usually not a pretty picture.

[xu82]

This doesn't always mean worse... What was X's offense like in 04, 08, 10? They're all a little bit different. The coach plays to the strength of the team. Trevon is gonna be a stud for this team next year and with him being the best player, yes the offense will look very different.

Agreed, I didn't mean to imply different was necessarily bad. But it will be different. I worry about who's going to do the good things Dee does, though.

[xufan2434]

Look at our offense right now when Stainbrook is out of the game? It's usually not a pretty picture.

That's because he is the focus of this year as our best option and they probably aren't spending much time in practice drawing up a bunch of different plays for when Matt is out of the game. I see what you're saying but I was talking more about next year with the growth of some players in the offense combined with a new focus and different offense heading into the year.

[PMI]

I think it's pretty clear that Xavier will miss Dee and Matt next year. Neither one of them could be replaced this year with anyone on the team, and it would be a pretty significant drop off for each spot. The obvious solution is that the returning guys need to take the next step in their games. Jalen really needs to step up and carry the load. He will never be the passer that Stain is I don't think, but he has the potential to be a net upgrade if he reaches the level he should. On the same note, Sumner certainly has the potential to be a better overall player than Dee, but I think that's asking for more from a (basically) first year player. I would venture to guess that we're more likely to see one of the current guards move over to the point, at least initially, than we are to see Sumner start. At the 5, I think it's a pretty safe guess that it'll be Jalen and James, even if neither act as a true center. O'Mara should get a lot of run too, but I don't know if we should expect him to start right away.

[xavierj]

Jason Love? Anthony Myles? Kenny was on one of our S16 teams. This is complete lunacy to me. This team is going to miss Stainbrook a ton. Our offense runs through him and revolves around his scoring and his passing. He does things that none of our other bigs can do and is way more consistent than either of the other two regulars despite getting far more defensive attention.

If Matt was a role player this would all make sense. Those guys were role players who could also play very good defense. Matt is the center focus of the team and that is a problem. Matt try's really hard but what he gives you on offense he gives back on defense against good athletic big men. Not tearing the guy up, like him, but him being the guy is why this team is mediocre. Defense will make this team much better, having better athletes who can run, jump and guard away from the basket will be the difference. Next year you will not really have liabilities on defense and you will still have several guys who can fill it up. It will be a team that suits what Chris needs in my opinion.

[XUFan09]

Kenny Frease was neither a role player, nor did he play very good defense. Jason Love was a fantastic post defender but that didn't make him a good perimeter defender (and he wasn't just a role player his senior year). I can't speak on Anthony Myles, as that's before my time.

I get frustrated with Matt on defense when up against perimeter players, but he is still a net positive because of his great offense and rebounding and his solid post defense.

[LA Muskie]

Just because X is losing Matt doesn't mean the offense is going to stink.. it means it will need to be run differently.
I agree with this. At least it damn well better not.

[GoMuskies]

Matt's an excellent offensive player, but if we have any room for error it's on the offensive end. So that is my glass half full reason for not being TOO concerned about life after Matt.

[XUFan09]

Matt's an excellent offensive player, but if we have any room for error it's on the offensive end. So that is my glass half full reason for not being TOO concerned about life after Matt.
True, we do have room for error on that end, but how much of that room is because of him? I'd say a lot, with only Dee having a bigger impact on the offense.

[xufan2434]

If Matt was a role player this would all make sense. Those guys were role players who could also play very good defense. Matt is the center focus of the team and that is a problem. Matt try's really hard but what he gives you on offense he gives back on defense against good athletic big men. Not tearing the guy up, like him, but him being the guy is why this team is mediocre. Defense will make this team much better, having better athletes who can run, jump and guard away from the basket will be the difference. Next year you will not really have liabilities on defense and you will still have several guys who can fill it up. It will be a team that suits what Chris needs in my opinion.

Agree with the part about a center being the main focus of the offense. Matt is a very good player, hell he got All Big East pre season honors. But all those teams with Love, Myles, and Kenny were run by very very good guards. Those guards on those teams were the guys you wanted with the ball to take the last shot. And honestly it's easier for those guys in that situation. This is evident extremely this year in X's close games and not being able to get a bucket down the stretch. They tried to run a pick and roll with Matt and Dee at the end of the Providence game and while I think Matt got fouled, X turned the ball over. Guards take teams deep in March (aka UCONN)

Although still think Farr is a defensive liability.. so maybe we are screwed who knows.

[GoMuskies]

Matt certainly plays a big role in that, but I have plenty of confidence that the reinforcements are more than capable of taking up any offensive slack. If we had a lock-down defender (we don't), I'd be much more concerned about losing him.

[XUFan09]

Matt certainly plays a big role in that, but I have plenty of confidence that the reinforcements are more than capable of taking up any offensive slack. If we had a lock-down defender (we don't), I'd be much more concerned about losing him.
I think our offense is going to take a hit unless Austin makes a seamless transition at PG (he's the one most like Dee, a facilitating point guard) and Farr takes a big step forward. Even then, I don't think the offense and will be as good. I do think our defense will be improved though, especially because our underclassmen should be better. Players will have to step up, but it remains to be seen how the offensive drop and the defensive jump balance out in terms of overall production.

I'm confident we'll be a better road team, at least.

[GoMuskies]

I'd like to know if Macura will improve enough on the defensive side of the ball to stay on the court 20-25 minutes a game. If so, I think he may take up all the offensive slack by himself (or at least when you add in the improvement Trevon should make from year 1 to year 2).

[xukeith]

I think it's pretty clear that Xavier will miss Dee and Matt next year. Neither one of them could be replaced this year with anyone on the team, and it would be a pretty significant drop off for each spot. The obvious solution is that the returning guys need to take the next step in their games. Jalen really needs to step up and carry the load. He will never be the passer that Stain is I don't think, but he has the potential to be a net upgrade if he reaches the level he should. On the same note, Sumner certainly has the potential to be a better overall player than Dee, but I think that's asking for more from a (basically) first year player. I would venture to guess that we're more likely to see one of the current guards move over to the point, at least initially, than we are to see Sumner start. At the 5, I think it's a pretty safe guess that it'll be Jalen and James, even if neither act as a true center. O'Mara should get a lot of run too, but I don't know if we should expect him to start right away.
I agree. I see the best year is in 2 years with M Davis as a senior, Bluiett as a Junior with Macura, Reynolds as a senior, Sumner playing pg fr 2nd year,
Lots of all round experience and loaded for scoring and improved defense among this worst defensive team ever to play for XU.

[XUFan09]

I'd like to know if Macura will improve enough on the defensive side of the ball to stay on the court 20-25 minutes a game. If so, I think he may take up all the offensive slack by himself (or at least when you add in the improvement Trevon should make from year 1 to year 2).
That's one variable I'm really curious about. His instincts are for the high-risk play rather than fundamentally sound defense and one-on-one he just doesn't move properly, but his size, athleticism, and lateral quickness suggest he can be a good defender. If his head even moderately catches up to his body on that end, Xavier will be great.

[xufan2434]

I agree. I see the best year is in 2 years with M Davis as a senior, Bluiett as a Junior with Macura, Reynolds as a senior, Sumner playing pg fr 2nd year,
Lots of all round experience and loaded for scoring and improved defense among this worst defensive team ever to play for XU.

That's definitely the team 100% to look out for.. Only problem with this program and more so college basketball all together, is how many of those guys stay the course and stay with the program till they graduate. Really hope they all do.. that team could be really good.

[XUFan09]

Lots of all round experience and loaded for scoring and improved defense among this worst defensive team ever to play for XU.

Hey, let's give credit where credit is due! The 2005 team was far worse defensively. The 2006 team was about on par with this team so far, but let's see how this team finishes.

[markchal]

I'm concerned with how many minutes Dee has to play. Randolph in the doghouse sort of confuses me. I have been pleasantly surprised with how Myles has run the offense, in limited doses. Definitely helps if he can pull a few minutes at the one, because that will just help to get more minutes for JP, Blueitt and Remy.

[xuwin]

Ok, a couple things regarding this "are we young or not" debate.

In my opinion, as a whole, we ARE young. It's surprising to me that some get upset about the D, but refuse to acknowledge you're only as strong as your weakest link. What I mean by that, is if you have two freshmen on the court who play horrible D (because of inexperience) then it doesn't matter that you have three other guys who play good D. One lapse by the younger guys, kills the whole defensive possession.

Now, I also do not make excuses for Coach Mack, so yes, we need to see results soon. However I will give him the benefit of the doubt. While we would like to see the program smoothly transition into a way better conference AND recover from the Wells fallout...it's not overly realistic. With that said, X finished 3rd last year! I get it, we expect excellence from our program. We want every team to play like the 2004 and 2008 teams. But when X went from the MCC to the A10 I was crazy patient. We all saw the talent that was out there in the 95-96 team. I see the same thing in this team. We are a victim of our expectations. Dee was not a top rated recruit, and neither was Matt. They are guys that have made themselves into very good players. Remy is in his first year with X (and doing very well). James is a Junior but is just developing into the role we need. So, you're telling me, because of those guys we should be WAY better? Come on. Seriously.

Not sure how much merit this holds, but look at it this way.
This team has a total of 9 seasons playing for X (Dee has 3, James has 2, and so on).
Next years team will have a total of 14 years playing for X, and that's with losing 6 years from Dee and Matt. Again, not excuses. I'm just trying to illustrate that you cannot discount experience in terms of playing together and playing in Xavier's system.

Myles should be better, he's a Sophomore. Tell that to the Sophomore version of BJ Raymond.

Trevon should be getting way more touches and scoring more. Tell that to the Freshman version of Myles Davis.

Coach is trying to mold these guys into an identity. The main reason we HAD to keep Mack this past off-season was because of this years Freshmen class. The other reason is because Mack is a Xavier Man. Dude bleeds blue. Will it happen this year? Not sure. But with all the talent on this team, it will happen this year or next year. If it doesn't then that's a conversation for later...when X has 14 years playing in our system instead of 9.

I don't think Reynolds was allowed to practice with the team during the year that he sat out either which was a setback to his development.

[xuwin]

I'm concerned with how many minutes Dee has to play. Randolph in the doghouse sort of confuses me. I have been pleasantly surprised with how Myles has run the offense, in limited doses. Definitely helps if he can pull a few minutes at the one, because that will just help to get more minutes for JP, Blueitt and Remy.

I don't think Randolph is in the doghouse. He just hasn't played well enough to earn more playing time.

[xudash]

Ok, a couple things regarding this "are we young or not" debate.

In my opinion, as a whole, we ARE young. It's surprising to me that some get upset about the D, but refuse to acknowledge you're only as strong as your weakest link. What I mean by that, is if you have two freshmen on the court who play horrible D (because of inexperience) then it doesn't matter that you have three other guys who play good D. One lapse by the younger guys, kills the whole defensive possession.

Now, I also do not make excuses for Coach Mack, so yes, we need to see results soon. However I will give him the benefit of the doubt. While we would like to see the program smoothly transition into a way better conference AND recover from the Wells fallout...it's not overly realistic. With that said, X finished 3rd last year! I get it, we expect excellence from our program. We want every team to play like the 2004 and 2008 teams. But when X went from the MCC to the A10 I was crazy patient. We all saw the talent that was out there in the 95-96 team. I see the same thing in this team. We are a victim of our expectations. Dee was not a top rated recruit, and neither was Matt. They are guys that have made themselves into very good players. Remy is in his first year with X (and doing very well). James is a Junior but is just developing into the role we need. So, you're telling me, because of those guys we should be WAY better? Come on. Seriously.

Not sure how much merit this holds, but look at it this way.
This team has a total of 9 seasons playing for X (Dee has 3, James has 2, and so on).
Next years team will have a total of 14 years playing for X, and that's with losing 6 years from Dee and Matt. Again, not excuses. I'm just trying to illustrate that you cannot discount experience in terms of playing together and playing in Xavier's system.

Myles should be better, he's a Sophomore. Tell that to the Sophomore version of BJ Raymond.

Trevon should be getting way more touches and scoring more. Tell that to the Freshman version of Myles Davis.

Coach is trying to mold these guys into an identity. The main reason we HAD to keep Mack this past off-season was because of this years Freshmen class. The other reason is because Mack is a Xavier Man. Dude bleeds blue. Will it happen this year? Not sure. But with all the talent on this team, it will happen this year or next year. If it doesn't then that's a conversation for later...when X has 14 years playing in our system instead of 9.

Public reps to go along with the private ones. You nailed it.

[waggy]

Nice job tonight Coach.

[paulxu]

Is it possible our coach knows what he's doing?

[D-West & PO-Z]

Congrats Coach Mack!

[Kahns Krazy]

Fire Chris Mack!!!! Wooooo Hooooo!

[gladdenguy]

Went over to the Georgetown board and they were raving about Mack calling timeouts to stop every Georgetown win. Good game coach!!!!

[Fireball]

So, wait...Chris gets to keep the job now?

At least, until the next time we lose a game, I guess.

[GoMuskies]

The Mack haters can eat some big crow.

See, NOW this post actually makes sense. Perhaps you're just ahead of your time.

[LA Muskie]

I'm so glad Chris finally learned how and when to call a TO. It's about damn time! (I kid...I kid... I don't give a shit about TOs.) Great win!!! Not that we had any reason to sweat it (beforehand). Now let's avoid the letdown game and turn this into a streak!!!

[Masterofreality]

I'm concerned with how many minutes Dee has to play. Randolph in the doghouse sort of confuses me. I have been pleasantly surprised with how Myles has run the offense, in limited doses. Definitely helps if he can pull a few minutes at the one, because that will just help to get more minutes for JP, Blueitt and Remy.

This is right on Mark. Dee is playing a ton of time and so far no one else has stepped up. Myles is doing a respectable job as a temp fill in.

For the Dee haters out there. Wait until you can see a picture of Dee's double black eyes. #Warrior

[Juice]

David Stubenrauch ‏@XUStatman 57m57 minutes ago
#Xavier has defeated 3 @AP_Top25 in reg. season for 1st time. Had 4 wins 2003-04, but 3 wins came in post season (A10 & NCAA tourneys)

[X-Fan]

David Stubenrauch ‏@XUStatman 57m57 minutes ago
#Xavier has defeated 3 @AP_Top25 in reg. season for 1st time. Had 4 wins 2003-04, but 3 wins came in post season (A10 & NCAA tourneys)
Wow! That's an amazing stat. Easily shows the difference of being in the Big East. As Nuts would say Giggidy!

[Xpectations]

Haven't been here in a while and saw this thread. Here are some stats I posted on the Scout board after last night's game, when XU's Kenpom rank had moved up to #17 for the season.

Here are Xavier's 5 best-ever overall Kenpom rankings in order from highest to lowest:
#15 - Thad Matta (2004)
#17 - Chris Mack (2010)
#17 - Chris Mack (2015, to date)
#18 - Sean Miller (2008)
#19 - Thad Matta (2002)

Here are XU's Pomeroy Strength of Schedule (SOS)) rankings in order from strongest to weakest:
#7 - Chris Mack (2015, to date)
#24 - Chris Mack (2010)
#29 - Chris Mack (2012)
#32 - Thad Matta (2004)
#49 - Chris Mack (2014)
#54 - Sean Miller (2008)
#56 - Sean Miller (2009)
#71 - Chris Mack (2011)
#73 - Chris Mack (2013)
#83 - Thad Matta (2002)
#83 - Thad Matta (2003)
#98 - Sean Miller (2007)
#132 - Sean Miller (2006)
#144 - Sean Miller (2005)

So Coach Mack has the Top 3 SOS rankings in XU history (note: XU was in the A-10 during 2 of those seasons), 4 of the Top 5, and 6 of the Top 9.

Average SOS Rankings across all seasons for each coach:
Chris Mack: #42
Thad Matta: #66
Sean Miller: #97

Mack's average SOS ranking is comfortably better than every Sean Miller season, and all but one Thad Matta season.

Mack has obviously played much tougher schedules than Miller and Matta--and it's not limited to our time spent in the Big East. In fact, if you limit Mack's average SOS to A-10 seasons, it's still #49--comfortably ahead of both Matta and Miller, who spent all of their XU time in the A-10.

I don't think people truly appreciate how brutal the schedules have been under Mack. People leave out context, much like my old debates on the Musketeer Madness board when the cry was "17 doesn't equal 26" (referring to the big step down in wins under Miller vs. Matta).

[xuinmd]

Is there a strong buyout clause in mac/s new contract?

[paulxu]

Xpect...that post will not score you any points with the Mack haters.

[Xville]

Great job by Mack last night especially in the use of his timeouts...one thing that I certainly noticed while at the game, and I'm sure Mack did as well, was every time the crowd got a little into it against Marquette, Wojo would immediately call a timeout....Mack did the exact same thing last night. Now, it isn't like this is a new revelation or anything, but this is something Mack wasn't really doing on the road until after that Marquette game. Maybe just seeing it right in front of his face and seeing the results gave him a last little nudge to do it.

Anyways, I am really proud of the team for all of the effort they have put in the last couple of weeks, and now the results are starting to show. Sometime around the Vilanova game, the team started to show an effort that wasn't there at the beginning of the year....since then the effort and defense has gotten better and better and finally they broke thru on the road last night. This makes me very excited for the rest of the year. If they continue to play like that, this can be a special team come March.

[xu82]

Haven't been here in a while and saw this thread. Here are some stats I posted on the Scout board after last night's game, when XU's Kenpom rank had moved up to #17 for the season.

Here are Xavier's 5 best-ever overall Kenpom rankings in order from highest to lowest:
#15 - Thad Matta (2004)
#17 - Chris Mack (2010)
#17 - Chris Mack (2015, to date)
#18 - Sean Miller (2008)
#19 - Thad Matta (2002)

Here are XU's Pomeroy Strength of Schedule (SOS)) rankings in order from strongest to weakest:
#7 - Chris Mack (2015, to date)
#24 - Chris Mack (2010)
#29 - Chris Mack (2012)
#32 - Thad Matta (2004)
#49 - Chris Mack (2014)
#54 - Sean Miller (2008)
#56 - Sean Miller (2009)
#71 - Chris Mack (2011)
#73 - Chris Mack (2013)
#83 - Thad Matta (2002)
#83 - Thad Matta (2003)
#98 - Sean Miller (2007)
#132 - Sean Miller (2006)
#144 - Sean Miller (2005)

So Coach Mack has the Top 3 SOS rankings in XU history (note: XU was in the A-10 during 2 of those seasons), 4 of the Top 5, and 6 of the Top 9.

Average SOS Rankings across all seasons for each coach:
Chris Mack: #42
Thad Matta: #66
Sean Miller: #97

Mack's average SOS ranking is comfortably better than every Sean Miller season, and all but one Thad Matta season.

Mack has obviously played much tougher schedules than Miller and Matta--and it's not limited to our time spent in the Big East. In fact, if you limit Mack's average SOS to A-10 seasons, it's still #49--comfortably ahead of both Matta and Miller, who spent all of their XU time in the A-10.

I don't think people truly appreciate how brutal the schedules have been under Mack. People leave out context, much like my old debates on the Musketeer Madness board when the cry was "17 doesn't equal 26" (referring to the big step down in wins under Miller vs. Matta).

OK, THAT is some great stuff, but some don't want to hear about facts and numbers and such.... As for does he develop anyone, that was not the Myles of last year or the Stain from Western Nowhere. Myles in particular look like the guy who might refuse to let us lose on certain nights!! (I copied the whole thing so fewer people would miss it on the last page - that's worth taking a look at.)

[D-West & PO-Z]

Haven't been here in a while and saw this thread. Here are some stats I posted on the Scout board after last night's game, when XU's Kenpom rank had moved up to #17 for the season.

Here are Xavier's 5 best-ever overall Kenpom rankings in order from highest to lowest:
#15 - Thad Matta (2004)
#17 - Chris Mack (2010)
#17 - Chris Mack (2015, to date)
#18 - Sean Miller (2008)
#19 - Thad Matta (2002)

Here are XU's Pomeroy Strength of Schedule (SOS)) rankings in order from strongest to weakest:
#7 - Chris Mack (2015, to date)
#24 - Chris Mack (2010)
#29 - Chris Mack (2012)
#32 - Thad Matta (2004)
#49 - Chris Mack (2014)
#54 - Sean Miller (2008)
#56 - Sean Miller (2009)
#71 - Chris Mack (2011)
#73 - Chris Mack (2013)
#83 - Thad Matta (2002)
#83 - Thad Matta (2003)
#98 - Sean Miller (2007)
#132 - Sean Miller (2006)
#144 - Sean Miller (2005)

So Coach Mack has the Top 3 SOS rankings in XU history (note: XU was in the A-10 during 2 of those seasons), 4 of the Top 5, and 6 of the Top 9.

Average SOS Rankings across all seasons for each coach:
Chris Mack: #42
Thad Matta: #66
Sean Miller: #97

Mack's average SOS ranking is comfortably better than every Sean Miller season, and all but one Thad Matta season.

Mack has obviously played much tougher schedules than Miller and Matta--and it's not limited to our time spent in the Big East. In fact, if you limit Mack's average SOS to A-10 seasons, it's still #49--comfortably ahead of both Matta and Miller, who spent all of their XU time in the A-10.

I don't think people truly appreciate how brutal the schedules have been under Mack. People leave out context, much like my old debates on the Musketeer Madness board when the cry was "17 doesn't equal 26" (referring to the big step down in wins under Miller vs. Matta).

This is good stuff, thanks for sharing.

[Xpectations]

OK, THAT is some great stuff, but some don't want to hear about facts and numbers and such.... As for does he develop anyone, that was not the Myles of last year or the Stain from Western Nowhere. Myles in particular look like the guy who might refuse to let us lose on certain nights!! (I copied the whole thing so fewer people would miss it on the last page - that's worth taking a look at.)

We have a VERY realistic shot of XU finishing with its highest Kenpom ranking ever, in a season where XU will shatter its best-ever SOS rankings. Our Offensive Efficiency ranking is well ahead of last season, and now our Defensive Efficiency ranking is ahead of last season too--all despite losing clearly our best player. This team is improving in front of our eyes throughout THIS season.

Yeah, they're right, our coach sucks.

[D-West & PO-Z]

Anyone else kind of wish XU2011 wasnt banned right now? Would love to see what him spin this somehow. Or did he just come back as that nasdrj (or whatever) name?

[XUFan09]

Anyone else kind of wish XU2011 wasnt banned right now? Would love to see what him spin this somehow. Or did he just come back as that nasdrj (or whatever) name?

The writing/arguing styles are different.

There's the possibility that RedsX11 (or whatever it is) is one and the same guy, but then, he was also banned, apparently for some expletives/homophobic rants that were since deleted. And if they're not the same, then there are just more a$$holes no longer welcome on this board.

[Xpectations]

To those who believe this team hasn't gotten better over the course of the year, here is a chart showing XU's Pomeroy ranking prior to each game this season.

1614
CLICK CHART ABOVE TO ENLARGE TO FULL SIZE

[X-man]

Anyone else kind of wish XU2011 wasnt banned right now? Would love to see what him spin this somehow. Or did he just come back as that nasdrj (or whatever) name?

I know that had XU2011 still been around, he would have guaranteed a loss at Georgetown. But he wouldn't back it up with a bet.

[Titanxman04]

The writing/arguing styles are different.

There's the possibility that RedsX11 (or whatever it is) is one and the same guy, but then, he was also banned, apparently for some expletives/homophobic rants that were since deleted. And if they're not the same, then there are just more a$$holes no longer welcome on this board.

Reds told Waggy, who disagreed with him in an appropriate manner, that he would like to give him a friendly nudge down a long flight of steps.

[xu82]

Reds told Waggy, who disagreed with him in an appropriate manner, that he would like to give him a friendly nudge down a long flight of steps.

I suspect it was your pal who gave him that splendid idea!

[LadyMuskie]

Reds told Waggy, who disagreed with him in an appropriate manner, that he would like to give him a friendly nudge down a long flight of steps.

This is the G version of what was posted.

[xu82]

This is the G version of what was posted.

You have to clean things up for daytime viewership. Apparently at 3:30am anything goes. Oh, wait... maybe not. That didn't go well for one recent poster.

[JEHARDI]

OK, THAT is some great stuff, but some don't want to hear about facts and numbers and such.... As for does he develop anyone, that was not the Myles of last year or the Stain from Western Nowhere. Myles in particular look like the guy who might refuse to let us lose on certain nights!! (I copied the whole thing so fewer people would miss it on the last page - that's worth taking a look at.)

Great post, thanks for doing the research and showing the facts. Thhe clowns will continue to whine about Mack but the facts are Mack has delivered at a high level against a much tougher schedule.

[waggy]

Great post, thanks for doing the research and showing the facts. Thhe clowns will continue to whine about Mack but the facts are Mack has delivered at a high level against a much tougher schedule.


Parts of his record ain't so awesome though. But that's a discussion for another time of year I feel. And the posters that make definitive "Mack sucks" declarations "that have fallen on deaf ears", are trolls and garbage.

[xu82]

Great post, thanks for doing the research and showing the facts. Thhe clowns will continue to whine about Mack but the facts are Mack has delivered at a high level against a much tougher schedule.
Yep, and all credit goes to Xpectations, whom I have already repped. Awesome stuff. (That's the reason I copied the whole thing - I didn't want anyone to miss it - again, well done.)

[Xpectations]

Look, I think we'd all feel better about the season had we just beaten Auburn and DePaul at their gyms. Those two losses sting the most, and create the biggest need to offset them with quality wins.

Many of our losses could have gone either way. We've lost 5 of our 7 games by a single possession.But I think some guys have emerged as players you want to design plays around to get that key shot or last shot (big example: Myles Davis). Plus, the small combos we can put on the floor with Matt in the middle can really make clutch possessions difficult for opponents to defend.

I really do feel the team is finding itself. I think the defense has improved immensely recently (we've risen over 45 spots in Def Eff over the past 4 games alone). So I also think our ability to get key stops has risen significantly. Some of our guys still have a ways to go on the defensive end, but tell me that Myles, Trevon and JP haven't already noticeably improved over the course of the season.

This team was destined to take longer to gel with the two freshman, two sophomores and an incoming transfer playing significant roles on the team. Inexperience talent and potential don't equal instant results unless you're recruiting NBA-ready talent like Kentucky.

[boozehound]

Fortunately for Xavier the committee rates recent performance and how a team plays in Feb and early March higher than early season performance. If we finish strong the committee will see a team with a lot of new components that lost some close games early before they really found their identity. If we finish strong I don't think Auburn and DePaul hurt us too badly. They definitelyl hurt us though.

[MADXSTER]

Fortunately for Xavier the committee rates recent performance and how a team plays in Feb and early March higher than early season performance. If we finish strong the committee will see a team with a lot of new components that lost some close games early before they really found their identity. If we finish strong I don't think Auburn and DePaul hurt us too badly. They definitelyl hurt us though.

I always thought there was more emphasis on the last 10-12 games played

[XUFan09]

There used to be an official "last 10 games" record, but that was scrapped in favor of evaluating the season holistically, with early games mattering just as much. I figure there's still a subjective bias toward recent performance, but that isn't as significant as when there was official criteria.

[LA Muskie]

There used to be an official "last 10 games" record, but that was scrapped in favor of evaluating the season holistically, with early games mattering just as much. I figure there's still a subjective bias toward recent performance, but that isn't as significant as when there was official criteria.
I agree that it's not formal anymore. But I think there is still a subjective bias in favor of recent performance. (And, to the extent the committee is seeking to choose the best 36 at-large teams as of that particular moment to compete in the tournament, I think that's an entirely fair approach.)

[XUFan09]

I agree that it's not formal anymore. But I think there is still a subjective bias in favor of recent performance. (And, to the extent the committee is seeking to choose the best 36 at-large teams as of that particular moment to compete in the tournament, I think that's an entirely fair approach.)
I agree, I just didn't want to overemphasize it. Because they are looking for the 36 best teams, not resumes, it still matters.

[Masterofreality]

Maybe not official, but doesn't the most recent hot chick you see outrate a hot chick from a couple of days ago?

What have you done for...or to....me lately.

[Smails]

Along those lines..things could get really dicey for our friends up north if they drop another stinker or two like they did last night.

[Masterofreality]

There have been a lot of experts commenting, criticizing and otherwise pontificating about this team's recent performances and about the Coaching of one Chris Mack. There has also been quite a bit of commentary comparing Coach Mack to his two predecessors with statements like "we never saw stuff like the Butler game under (Beaknose)or (Desert Raccoon)."

it seems like people on here have quite the short memories or they just refuse to acknowledge differences in overall circumstances between the situations of Beak/Raccoon and CMack. I'm not even going to reference the departure of very good players, not only because of ability, but because of stupidity, that set the program back or the ludicrous NCAA ruling that kept Myles Davis and Jalen Reynolds off the court in 2012-2013. No, it's about the total overall change in circumstance of a significant league upgrade that the previous two Deities never had to deal with.

In CMack's first 3 years, everyone can admit that his results were comparable to his predecessors- 3 NCAA's with 2 Sweet 16's and 2 A10 Championships. With all 3 of our most recent coaches, Xavier had the advantage of recruiting in the A10 because of Cintas Center and won in the A10 with better talent, but even with that, XU could only get, at best 5th or 6th ranked league level talent, not 2nd or 3rd. But the one difference that Mack has had to deal with is the change of leagues upward in last and this year that the other two did not. Consider:

Stat #1: Almost one half of the scholarship players on this present roster (6) committed & signed with Xavier before Xavier was any where near being in a conversation about joining the Big East- that is in 2010, 2011 or 2012. So what, you may say? Well this what. Mack, just as with Beaknose and Raccoon, was recruiting in a pool of players that were available to the 7th - 8th ranked league rather than a pool of players that would be at a level of the 2nd or 3rd ranked league. However now, Xavier is playing schools that have ALWAYS been recruiting at a 2nd/3rd league level. So our older players were recruited in essence to be A10 competitive, not Big East competitive. But, what about Butler you say? Well, they had Brad Stevens leveraging their two final 4's when recruiting, a one off advantage that Mack does not have. Even DePaul with Purnell still had the Big East aura to help them.

Stat #2: Of the 7 players that Xavier has on it's roster that committed/signed since the announcement of Xavier's Big East membership, only Remy Abel has more than 16 games experience. The others are kids, talented kids, but kids who last year were in high school and didn't have to play defense like they do up here. Unlike the previous Xavier classes, they are not getting their feet wet in the 7th ranked league, but the 2nd ranked one. Why should we be surprised if they struggle at times- especially on defense?

Of course critics will point out losses this year to people like Auburn, Long Beach, and DePaul as examples why Mack stinks. Well, my memory is not short, and I remember horrible efforts against average or worse teams under both Toucan (Iowa State, Ball State, Richmond, Dookcane, St. Bonaventure) and Raccoon (Fordham, a bad Tennessee team, a bad Cincinnati team(Cronin's first year), Miami (2 losses), Dookcane & LaSalle). Stinkers happen, and I will criticize coaching moves when they deserve criticism, but let us remember that half this squad was recruited to compete in the A 10 and half are freshman. The ONLY player on this roster that does not fall in either category is Abel.

Am I happy with the effort at Butler last Saturday? No more than I was with the effort at Fordham under Raccoon or at Ball State under Toucan, but I'm willing to let the season play before really being concerned.

Chris Mack is going nowhere soon, unless he, himself generates the move. At least we should give him the benefit of more time in this new league before we damn him to the fiery furnace.

Well, the regular season has played out. We beat SucKS at their pithole, made the Big East Tournament Championship game, have won 21 games and will make the NCAA Tournament as a single digit seed. Chris Mack will be going nowhere soon, unless he, himself, generates the move.

That is the Coach Chris Mack Reality as of March 15, 2015.

[X-Fan]

Well, the regular season has played out. We beat SucKS at their pithole, made the Big East Tournament Championship game, have won 21 games and will make the NCAA Tournament as a single digit seed. Chris Mack will be going nowhere soon, unless he, himself, generates the move.

That is the Coach Chris Mack Reality as of March 15, 2015.
Nice!

What's even more exciting about watching the rest of this season is knowing that X has a LOADED team coming back with PG being the only question mark (Larry will do fine IMO). This season is a lot like life, sometimes things don't go the way you want, but if you work hard and stick with it, good things generally happen.

[chico]

A season is a lifetime.

[MADXSTER]

MOR you make too much sense sometimes. Unfortunately this board isn't as good as it once was due to the hater's that spew garbage and refuse to look at the big picture. I once sat with two college coaches while they were scouting a game. Was extremely impressed with them and quickly realized how little I knew about the game I followed for more than 20+ years. The one coach told me there are people who watch and judge a game by the scoreboard and others who watch what is really going on in the game. Since then my view has changed dramatically and it is hard for me to come on here and listen to peeps who know very little clammer about t/o's, past seasons without taking in consideration about the happenings at that time, playing time for certain players, etc.

[OTRMUSKIE]

It's a love/hate with Mack for me. Right now I love him! However I don't need to understand the game because I understand results and right now Mack is getting results in a very very good conference. He makes boneheaded decisions sometimes but I am sure all coaches do. He is still young and will get better with time. Our recruits will also start getting better and I think X is just a year or two away from being the flagship of the Big East. Go X!

[xu82]

A lot of the haters are in stealth mode or claiming they were just asking legit questions. The tone often gives away the real intent. Some are less subtle and reading tone is not necessary. Could some things have gone better this year? Sure, get used to it - life is like that. Be glad we're not looking over your shoulder at work! Overall, a job well done and a great ride....I just hope it continues for a while. It's win or go home time.

[xu82]

It's a love/hate with Mack for me. Right now I love him! However I don't need to understand the game because I understand results and right now Mack is getting results in a very very good conference. He makes boneheaded decisions sometimes but I am sure all coaches do. He is still young and will get better with time. Our recruits will also start getting better and I think X is just a year or two away from being the flagship of the Big East. Go X!

There's a lot more happening than the final score. Progress over a season is results, too. This team has moved forward over the course of the season, and yes, the future does look bright.

[xudash]

I openly admit that I do not know the game as well as some here. I try to be open-minded and observe what I observe.

If the topic is about focus and energy for 40 minutes, then I witnessed nothing but substantial improvement in that area during our game against Butler in the Big East Tournament. Xavier went to war against a team that pushes the envelope a little too often. That was a real statement win to me, especially coming on a neutral floor, and on one of the great stages at that. Then, we follow that up with a third straight victory against Georgetown. Georgetown! I mean, who saw us doing stuff like this a decade ago?

I can only hope Chris Mack loves his alma mater so much, especially now through the endowed coaching position, that he achieves enough to put himself in the college basketball Hall of Fame through a resume built on Victory Parkway.

[The Coz]

I'm gonba start an MOR Reality Thread where MOR continually quotes himself.

[sirthought]

I will openly state that Mack needs a better offensive scheme...as in, he needs one, period.

Other than that, I think he works hard to coach the players he has to work with.

[JEHARDI]

[QUOTE=sirthought;494961]I will openly state that Mack needs a better offensive scheme...as in, he needs one, period.

Other than that, I think he works hard to coach the players he has to work with

Not sure what team you were watching this year but thanks for openly stating your opinion.

[Juice]

I will openly state that Mack needs a better offensive scheme...as in, he needs one, period.

Other than that, I think he works hard to coach the players he has to work with.

You mean the scheme that led to the nation's 28th most efficient offense? Ok.

[sirthought]

You mean the scheme that led to the nation's 28th most efficient offense? Ok.

What can I say? They have some better scorers this year. That still doesn't mean he runs anything.

[D-West & PO-Z]

What can I say? They have some better scorers this year. That still doesn't mean he runs anything.

This is ridiculous.

Do you even watch the team? Do you think we have a lot of guys who can create their own offense? No we dont. I have seen this team run a hundred different plays this year.

[sirthought]

I'm not saying they never run anything, but the fact that we repeatedly see Dee Davis making a last ditch drive says there isn't enough being done to open someone up. Too many shooters on this team for that to be happening as often as it does.

[markchal]

This is ridiculous.

Do you even watch the team? Do you think we have a lot of guys who can create their own offense? No we dont. I have seen this team run a hundred different plays this year.

This is not fair at all. Stain is very good at creating offense that isn't necessarily drawn up. He's been in a slump, sure, but 1-on-1 he's very tough to stop usually. And when he's doubled, he's a very good passer.

[D-West & PO-Z]

This is not fair at all. Stain is very good at creating offense that isn't necessarily drawn up. He's been in a slump, sure, but 1-on-1 he's very tough to stop usually. And when he's doubled, he's a very good passer.

Passing to stain down low and having a guy plan a cut to the basket when he gets doubled is a play.

[X Factor]

http://s2.quickmeme.com/img/6b/6beb1d9805596b30f743a615bad1770ff2265c34a87de1c803 b0aa74343bed9a.jpg

[XU 87]

What can I say? They have some better scorers this year. That still doesn't mean he runs anything.

You either have never watched X play or if you have you don't know what you're watching.

And we just made the B E finals and got a 6 seed. This is what you have to say? Jeez.

[XU 87]

This is not fair at all. Stain is very good at creating offense that isn't necessarily drawn up. He's been in a slump, sure, but 1-on-1 he's very tough to stop usually. And when he's doubled, he's a very good passer.

They often run a set play to get Stain the ball on the low block.

[D-West & PO-Z]

They often run a set play to get Stain the ball on the low block.

Yes

[Muskeagle]

Or what about the double pick play that gets Jalen open looks on the block....they've used this all year (including two in a row late in the game yesterday). Honestly, the idea that X doesn't run a good offense is laughable. There have been Mack teams where I felt it was "hold the ball and let a guard drive and hope something happens (with Tu, Crawford, Christon), but this year has been much different. The set plays out of a time out have also been a treat with this team

[D-West & PO-Z]

Or what about the double pick play that gets Jalen open looks on the block....they've used this all year (including two in a row late in the game yesterday). Honestly, the idea that X doesn't run a good offense is laughable. There have been Mack teams where I felt it was "hold the ball and let a guard drive and hope something happens (with Tu, Crawford, Christon), but this year has been much different. The set plays out of a time out have also been a treat with this team

Yes I love the Jalen play

[Drew's Crew]

Too many shooters on this team for that to be happening as often as it does.

Statements like these lose you credibility. We have an offensive efficiency in the top ten percent of all Division 1 with a SG who has shot about 20% from 3 the last month and a PG who shoots about 20-25% from three. Farr is lucky if he hits the rim most games.

Stain and Jalen has developed jumpers, but Jalen's still aren't reliable. Remy and the Frosh can hit an open shot, but struggle creating a shot.

Mack has done some pretty awesome stuff with the guys he has to work with.

At one point in yesterday's game, we had Dee, Remy, Farr and Myles on the floor. None of those four can consistently create any offense or make a contested shot. most jumpers they make are wide open ones.....bc the offensive scheme got them wide open.

[sirthought]

Or what about the double pick play that gets Jalen open looks on the block....they've used this all year (including two in a row late in the game yesterday). Honestly, the idea that X doesn't run a good offense is laughable. There have been Mack teams where I felt it was "hold the ball and let a guard drive and hope something happens (with Tu, Crawford, Christon), but this year has been much different. The set plays out of a time out have also been a treat with this team

I would agree with much in this post. That still doesn't make me in love with Mack's offensive approach. It IS much better this season, including some great out-of-bounds plays and working to get Reynolds the ball on cuts.

I'm not a Mack hater. I think this is the area he needs to improve the most.

[markchal]

I would agree with much in this post. That still doesn't make me in love with Mack's offensive approach. It IS much better this season, including some great out-of-bounds plays and working to get Reynolds the ball on cuts.

I'm not a Mack hater. I think this is the area he needs to improve the most.

Our defense would beg to differ.

[nuts4xu]

Stain and Jalen has developed jumpers, but Jalen's still aren't reliable. Remy and the Frosh can hit an open shot, but struggle creating a shot.

Mack has done some pretty awesome stuff with the guys he has to work with.

I beg to differ, both have developed enough of a jump shot to be very effective. Jalen is ranked #11 and Stain is #34 in the nation in field goal %.

[JEHARDI]

O
I would agree with much in this post. That still doesn't make me in love with Mack's offensive approach. It IS much better this season, including some great out-of-bounds plays and working to get Reynolds the ball on cuts.

I'm not a Mack hater. I think this is the area he needs to improve the most.

Are you for real or just ignorant?

[smileyy]

I always liked the "Run Tu off of a ridiculously hard ball screen, and have him hip-check the hedger to draw a foul call" play.

[XUFan09]

What can I say? They have some better scorers this year. That still doesn't mean he runs anything.
Having more shooters (not really scorers) isn't all you need. This isn't high school basketball; it's highly competitive D1. You can't be that good offensively at this level without good coaching. St. John's is definitely more talented offensively than Xavier, yet their offensive efficiency is ranked 62nd to Xavier's 28th. The difference is that Mack coaches his team into a cohesive unit and Lavin doesn't.

[xsteve1]

Having more shooters (not really scorers) isn't all you need. This isn't high school basketball; it's highly competitive D1. You can't be that good offensively at this level without good coaching. St. John's is definitely more talented offensively than Xavier, yet their offensive efficiency is ranked 62nd to Xavier's 28th. The difference is that Mack coaches his team into a cohesive unit and Lavin doesn't.

I think X's offensive efficiency is a big product of the passing ability of Dee and Stain. Will be interesting to see if it's as efficient with those two gone next year.

[XUFan09]

I'm not saying they never run anything, but the fact that we repeatedly see Dee Davis making a last ditch drive says there isn't enough being done to open someone up. Too many shooters on this team for that to be happening as often as it does.
Sometimes. Not repeatedly. Sometimes. Because sometimes, a play breaks down, either due to a mistake or due to good defense. It happens to all teams, even Wisconsin and Notre Dame, the top two offenses in D1.

If it was a repeated issue, Dee would have a much higher usage rate than he actually has.

[XUFan09]

I think X's offensive efficiency is a big product of the passing ability of Dee and Stain. Will be interesting to see if it's as efficient with those two gone next year.
I agree. Talent definitely play a part in the equation. It just will only get you so far. Some people act like that explains most of the performance though when a team does well.

On the other side, some live with the delusion that a great coach can take a bunch of average players and make them into a good team. Butler is a good example of that idea, because people don't recognize the defensive talent on that team.

[xu82]

Having more shooters (not really scorers) isn't all you need. This isn't high school basketball; it's highly competitive D1. You can't be that good offensively at this level without good coaching. St. John's is definitely more talented offensively than Xavier, yet their offensive efficiency is ranked 62nd to Xavier's 28th. The difference is that Mack coaches his team into a cohesive unit and Lavin doesn't.

I agree coaching is critical. I also think we're blessed that our shooters this year can also be "scorers". Trevon, JP and now Myles will go past you as easily as shoot over you. Teams didn't have to worry about Brad (as much as I love him) that way. It's nice to have a lot of options, inside and out.

[XUFan09]

I agree coaching is critical. I also think we're blessed that our shooters this year can also be "scorers". Trevon, JP and now Myles will go past you as easily as shoot over you. Teams didn't have to worry about Brad (as much as I love him) that way. It's nice to have a lot of options, inside and out.
Yeah, I'd say Myles has morphed into a scorer. Trevon and Macura show flashes but they also take questionable shots to balance it out (like Trevon's contested step back jumper with a good on the three-point line). I think they are about a year from truly being scorers.

[xu82]

Yeah, I'd say Myles has morphed into a scorer. Trevon and Macura show flashes but they also take questionable shots to balance it out (like Trevon's contested step back jumper with a good on the three-point line). I think they are about a year from truly being scorers.

Oh, I agree they are far from what they will become, but that's the game they bring to the table. Our "scorers" are mainly freshmen and sophomores. That's very exciting.

[Masterofreality]

2015 NCAA Tournament 6 seed.

Add that to the Reality.

[Masterofreality]

Coach Chris Mack is now 5-4 in NCAA Tournament Games.

Reality.

[LadyMuskie]

And he's mad as hell and not gonna take it anymore!

[paulxu]

5 out of 6 NCAA's ain't chopped liver.

I need to go back and find those posts where people were bitching that we were going to miss tournament.

[Masterofreality]

5 out of 6 NCAA's ain't chopped liver.

I need to go back and find those posts where people were bitching that we were going to miss tournament.

I think that they have been deleted in the last week....by the original posters.

[D-West & PO-Z]

Coach Mack! Keep the faith people!

[Fireball]

Funny thing is that after so many were ready to call this season a disappointment and some were saying that were are in the midst of the worst 3-year stretch of Xavier basketball in 15 years...we're now in the second round of the tournament and will be favored to get into the Sweet 16.

Just shows...don't write the story of the season until AFTER the postseason!

[Masterofreality]

A tough league requires tough minds....by players AND Fans!

[D-West & PO-Z]

Funny thing is that after so many were ready to call this season a disappointment and some were saying that were are in the midst of the worst 3-year stretch of Xavier basketball in 15 years...we're now in the second round of the tournament and will be favored to get into the Sweet 16.

Just shows...don't write the story of the season until AFTER the postseason!

Yes indeed.

[Xavier]

Agreed. No one remembers regular seasons. Now is where the season proves itself....keep fighting boys.

[Always Learning]

Yes indeed.

Hey Firebird and D-West, It seems like every year for the past nine years especially following the sure to be demise of the program after Whatshisname lied his way out of torn, poor old Xavier was again headed to the wasteland of college basketball. And so many pessimists write off the team in December.

Recent years folks really keep me entertained posting how Stan will never amount to anything, Dee is the worst PG in college basketball, Mack can't coach, and on and on and on.

Having lived in Naw Orleans (God how I miss my cajun food) I was told how easy the natives give up. They say it dates back to when the English were marching up from the gulf to take the city.

The mayor said he was going to surrender, to save the English from burning down the city.

And, Andy Jackson let the city know, that if he did, he'd hang the SOB.

Same with our "mayors." We need to hang a few to put a halt to this in-season crying. Wait until the end folks.

Ed Biles always taught, "you play the first half for fun, and the second half for keeps."

[LadyMuskie]

s (God how I miss my cajun food) "

Are you in Cincy? Allyn's used to be good. I haven't been in awhile though. Service was usually pretty bad, but jambalaya and red beans and rice were authentic and good.

[Masterofreality]

Are you in Cincy? Allyn's used to be good. I haven't been in awhile though. Service was usually pretty bad, but jambalaya and red beans and rice were authentic and good.

AL lives in Houston now. They got some CAJown down there don't they AL?

[DC Muskie]

I'll just repeat what Lady said before...can't we just be happy about the win?

[paulxu]

I think someone probably wasn't copied on the Rule #1 memo.

[The Coz]

LadyMuskie makes another thread about herself. Also, Allyns sucks. Camille Paglia should stick to het feminist manifestos.

[markchal]

I'll just repeat what Lady said before...can't we just be happy about the win?

Totally agree with this. Brownlavender has some weird agenda after what should be a great night for X fans. Never understood the desire to attack other fans after a win. Pointless.

[Fireball]

The amount of negativity on this board at times has been suffocating...I honestly don't blame anyone for the backlash against it.

[D-West & PO-Z]

The amount of negativity on this board at times has been suffocating...I honestly don't blame anyone for the backlash against it.

I tend to agree. I'm not going to start a thread calling anyone out, I am just too ecstatic about moving on but this board was unbearable for big chunks of the season. Admittedly some of those people were banned and havent been back so it got somewhat better.

[DC Muskie]

I hope people who come to this board after a loss of their own free will, have recovered and are now breathing freely.

There's like three posters here who write outlandish stuff. I think a little common sense and self control can help anyone navigate this board and enjoy it. People are emotional after a loss. It's hard to find fault with that.

[danaandvictory]

The implementation and judicious usage of the 1-3-1 has really been a season-changer for X. The staff deserves a lot of credit for recognizing the opportunity and personnel and putting it into place. JP and Jalen, in particular, are absolutely perfect for their roles in that scheme.

[DC Muskie]

The implementation and judicious usage of the 1-3-1 has really been a season-changer for X. The staff deserves a lot of credit for recognizing the opportunity and personnel and putting it into place. JP and Jalen, in particular, are absolutely perfect for their roles in that scheme.

Yes, this season is memorable for the idea that we can and will implement a strategy that works well. I love the 1-3-1. I'm hoping it works well against Georgia State who looks like they don't shoot well.

[LadyMuskie]

I hope people who come to this board after a loss of their own free will, have recovered and are now breathing freely.

There's like three posters here who write outlandish stuff. I think a little common sense and self control can help anyone navigate this board and enjoy it. People are emotional after a loss. It's hard to find fault with that.

DC bringing common sense to all!

[Wheelhouse]

I've been occasionally critical of Mack but I still support him. It's hilarious that some people expect fans on a message board to never criticize the program or coach. It's a message board for crying out loud. It exists so fans can discuss their feelings, both good and bad. And we just won a tourney game! Holy hell, I read that brownlavender guy's post from yesterday and actually felt sorry for him. Can you imagine having that much pent up anger throughout the year, keeping quiet the whole time and then unleashing a post to all the "haters" who doubted the team IMMEDIATELY after your team won an NCAA Tournament game in impressive fashion? Enjoy the win, people!

And if anyone is still struggling to find a positive about having Chris Mack as our coach, just take a look at that Ole Miss team yesterday. Quick turnaround or not, they appear to be a horribly coached team.

[xavier323]

I don't think Randolph is in the doghouse. He just hasn't played well enough to earn more playing time.

It has nothing to do with how good Randolph is playing the reason why he is not playing is because randolph asked for his release over a month ago and it was agreement between randolph, and randolph's family and mack to allow him to stay on team until end of season.

[Juice]

It has nothing to do with how good Randolph is playing the reason why he is not playing is because randolph asked for his release over a month ago and it was agreement between randolph, and randolph's family and mack to allow him to stay on team until end of season.

Ehhhh, he probably wouldn't have asked for his release if he was getting PT.

[XUFan09]

Ehhhh, he probably wouldn't have asked for his release if he was getting PT.
Yeah, he was earning DNPs as far back as January 10. That's actually when LA, Jr. passed him as the backup point guard.

[Masterofreality]

Update on Coach Chris Mack Reality.

Six seasons, 4 Sweet 16's. 6 NCAA wins, tying for the most in Program History of any coach.

As of March, 21, 2015.

[XUOWNSUC]

Update on Coach Chris Mack Reality.

Six seasons, 3 Sweet 16's. 6 NCAA wins, tying for the most in Program History of any coach.

As of March, 21, 2015.

Corrected. Still, 3 out of 6 ain't bad. Can Mack take Xavier to the next level?

[BandAid]

If he can get us past Arizona to our 3rd Elite Eight, he'll be a god.

[X Factor]

Update on Coach Chris Mack Reality.

Six seasons, 4 Sweet 16's. 6 NCAA wins, tying for the most in Program History of any coach.

As of March, 21, 2015.

Awesome!! Mack can flat out coach!

[LadyMuskie]

If he can get us past Arizona to our 3rd Elite Eight, he'll be a god.

I'll start the collection for a statue myself.

[Masterofreality]

Corrected. Still, 3 out of 6 ain't bad. Can Mack take Xavier to the next level?

Ah, correct. Got my dates a bit off. 2009 was still Raccoon.

[D-West & PO-Z]

We need to bookmark this exact spot in this thread for next years inevitable Fire Chris Mack midseason melt down.

[X-Fan]

If he can get us past Arizona to our 3rd Elite Eight, he'll be a god.

A GOD I tell you!!

[X-Fan]

Ok, a couple things regarding this "are we young or not" debate.

In my opinion, as a whole, we ARE young. It's surprising to me that some get upset about the D, but refuse to acknowledge you're only as strong as your weakest link. What I mean by that, is if you have two freshmen on the court who play horrible D (because of inexperience) then it doesn't matter that you have three other guys who play good D. One lapse by the younger guys, kills the whole defensive possession.

Now, I also do not make excuses for Coach Mack, so yes, we need to see results soon. However I will give him the benefit of the doubt. While we would like to see the program smoothly transition into a way better conference AND recover from the Wells fallout...it's not overly realistic. With that said, X finished 3rd last year! I get it, we expect excellence from our program. We want every team to play like the 2004 and 2008 teams. But when X went from the MCC to the A10 I was crazy patient. We all saw the talent that was out there in the 95-96 team. I see the same thing in this team. We are a victim of our expectations. Dee was not a top rated recruit, and neither was Matt. They are guys that have made themselves into very good players. Remy is in his first year with X (and doing very well). James is a Junior but is just developing into the role we need. So, you're telling me, because of those guys we should be WAY better? Come on. Seriously.

Not sure how much merit this holds, but look at it this way.
This team has a total of 9 seasons playing for X (Dee has 3, James has 2, and so on).
Next years team will have a total of 14 years playing for X, and that's with losing 6 years from Dee and Matt. Again, not excuses. I'm just trying to illustrate that you cannot discount experience in terms of playing together and playing in Xavier's system.

Myles should be better, he's a Sophomore. Tell that to the Sophomore version of BJ Raymond.

Trevon should be getting way more touches and scoring more. Tell that to the Freshman version of Myles Davis.

Coach is trying to mold these guys into an identity. The main reason we HAD to keep Mack this past off-season was because of this years Freshmen class. The other reason is because Mack is a Xavier Man. Dude bleeds blue. Will it happen this year? Not sure. But with all the talent on this team, it will happen this year or next year. If it doesn't then that's a conversation for later...when X has 14 years playing in our system instead of 9.
With X making the Sweet 16 yesterday, and watching the post game press conference, I'm going to take this opportunity to tie my previous post and the Presser together. I do this for two reasons, 1. To reinforce a few of my points which were mentioned by the guys/coach, 2. To point out where I was off.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f35yRKLUVzg

Where I was right:
- These guys were/are still working out the kinks that any "newer" group has to go through.
- It was a transition. It was mentioned that X had only 8 scholarship players two years ago, partly due to BS ineligibility rulings, partly due to unexpected player departures. These types of setbacks are not easy to recover from when you are shifting conferences and dealing with fallout from the fight.

Where I was wrong:
- Not being confident in our Seniors. This is Xavier. That's what our Seniors do. Way to step up fellas!

Couldn't be more proud of this group. LOVED that Myles and Jalen came up SO big yesterday! I knew they had it in them! Here's to our Frosh joining the "breakout party" and getting hot against Zona!

Let's Go X!!!!

[The Coz]

MOR is a great judge of coaching abilities. Why just last week he was having Ed Cooley fiitted for his bust in the Basketball of Fame.

[xudash]

With X making the Sweet 16 yesterday, and watching the post game press conference, I'm going to take this opportunity to tie my previous post and the Presser together. I do this for two reasons, 1. To reinforce a few of my points which were mentioned by the guys/coach, 2. To point out where I was off.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f35yRKLUVzg

Where I was right:
- These guys were/are still working out the kinks that any "newer" group has to go through.
- It was a transition. It was mentioned that X had only 8 scholarship players two years ago, partly due to BS ineligibility rulings, partly due to unexpected player departures. These types of setbacks are not easy to recover from when you are shifting conferences and dealing with fallout from the fight.

Where I was wrong:
- Not being confident in our Seniors. This is Xavier. That's what our Seniors do. Way to step up fellas!

Couldn't be more proud of this group. LOVED that Myles and Jalen came up SO big yesterday! I knew they had it in them! Here's to our Frosh joining the "breakout party" and getting hot against Zona!

Let's Go X!!!!

Excellent post.

[Fireball]

We need to bookmark this exact spot in this thread for next years inevitable Fire Chris Mack midseason melt down.

I really hope that this postseason has earned us a "Fire Mack"-free season next year. Mack can recruit, and he can coach, and he has proven it...again.

[paulxu]

I really hope that this postseason has earned us a "Fire Mack"-free season next year. Mack can recruit, and he can coach, and he has proven it...again.

Not a snowball's chance in hell.

[xudash]

I really hope that this postseason has earned us a "Fire Mack"-free season next year. Mack can recruit, and he can coach, and he has proven it...again.

Here. Here.

[MADXSTER]

With X making the Sweet 16 yesterday, and watching the post game press conference, I'm going to take this opportunity to tie my previous post and the Presser together. I do this for two reasons, 1. To reinforce a few of my points which were mentioned by the guys/coach, 2. To point out where I was off.


Where I was right:
- These guys were/are still working out the kinks that any "newer" group has to go through.
- It was a transition. It was mentioned that X had only 8 scholarship players two years ago, partly due to BS ineligibility rulings, partly due to unexpected player departures. These types of setbacks are not easy to recover from when you are shifting conferences and dealing with fallout from the fight.

Where I was wrong:
- Not being confident in our Seniors. This is Xavier. That's what our Seniors do. Way to step up fellas!

Couldn't be more proud of this group. LOVED that Myles and Jalen came up SO big yesterday! I knew they had it in them! Here's to our Frosh joining the "breakout party" and getting hot against Zona!

Let's Go X!!!!

This is the type of stuff that the Mack haters refuse comprehend when making their arguments. They only look at numbers.

[bleedXblue]

I don't remember seeing any "fire Mack" posts. Some very critical of certain situations or defensive schemes.....yes. Some critical of in game tactical coaching misses. Sure. But that just goes with the territory unless your Coach K and a handful of other legends. Mack has done a great job with what he had to work with this year and got just about everything he could out of this team. Looking forward to seeing him continue to grow as a coach and leader.

[DC Muskie]

Here. Here.

It's hear. Hear. It's a phrase telling people to listen, not to come somewhere. Just FYI.


I don't remember seeing any "fire Mack" posts. Some very critical of certain situations or defensive schemes.....yes. Some critical of in game tactical coaching misses. Sure. But that just goes with the territory unless your Coach K and a handful of other legends. Mack has done a great job with what he had to work with this year and got just about everything he could out of this team. Looking forward to seeing him continue to grow as a coach and leader.

Yeah I'm not sure what the entire "Fire Mack" mentality comes from. But by the looks of it, a few people believe this was a constant conversation this past season.

[D-West & PO-Z]

I don't remember seeing any "fire Mack" posts. Some very critical of certain situations or defensive schemes.....yes. Some critical of in game tactical coaching misses. Sure. But that just goes with the territory unless your Coach K and a handful of other legends. Mack has done a great job with what he had to work with this year and got just about everything he could out of this team. Looking forward to seeing him continue to grow as a coach and leader.


It's hear. Hear. It's a phrase telling people to listen, not to come somewhere. Just FYI.



Yeah I'm not sure what the entire "Fire Mack" mentality comes from. But by the looks of it, a few people believe this was a constant conversation this past season.

There was a lot more talk than questioning schemes. You may be "misremembering". There was plenty of talk about his seat being hot and people questioning his leadership, coaching abilities, player development, etc. Numerous people were also hoping another school would come along and hire Mack away.

[markchal]

There was a lot more talk than questioning schemes. You may be "misremembering". There was plenty of talk about his seat being hot and people questioning his leadership, coaching abilities, player development, etc. Numerous people were also hoping another school would come along and hire Mack away.

I think this is overselling it a lot. I never saw a single post that said his seat should be hot this year. Most of the ones I saw were contingent on him missing the tournament this year and next. Also can't remember a single serious post from someone hoping he'd be hired away this year.

Plenty of questioning player development, abilities, etc., especially in game threads (which should be taken with a grain of salt) and during the rough stretch of BE play, but that comes with the territory of a successful program's message board.

Any questioning of the coach or season being perceived as declaring a coach should be close to losing his job is probably just a sign that were spoiled as a fanbase since we haven't really gone through that in recent history.

[Masterofreality]

People need to understand that the days of walking through a marginal conference at 15-1 are ooooooooovvvvvvvvveeeeerrrrrrr.

There are going to be tough losses, and not just one or two. We always want our players to be tough minded. well, we as fans need to be also, and hold our tongues and thoughts sometimes. Otherwise, stupidity posts last on the Interweb forever.

[MD Muskie]

There was a lot more talk than questioning schemes. You may be "misremembering". There was plenty of talk about his seat being hot and people questioning his leadership, coaching abilities, player development, etc. Numerous people were also hoping another school would come along and hire Mack away.

I am all for Mack staying here for a long time, the results may not be pretty like they were with Miller, but the results are there. With that said, we will go through the same song and dance every off season moving forward because of the results. I fully expect Mack's name to be attached to Texas and Alabama (the current "big" schools) this off season. Hopefully he continues to spurn those offers.

[markchal]

I am all for Mack staying here for a long time, the results may not be pretty like they were with Miller, but the results are there. With that said, we will go through the same song and dance every off season moving forward because of the results. I fully expect Mack's name to be attached to Texas and Alabama (the current "big" schools) this off season. Hopefully he continues to spurn those offers.

I'm actually sort of interested to see how the BE will change these speculations. Obviously, Archie will be a hot name for big openings, but I do think we will hear less of Mack's name being thrown around since we're in a big conference (I don't think Alabama would even be a lateral move).

[Masterofreality]

I'm actually sort of interested to see how the BE will change these speculations. Obviously, Archie will be a hot name for big openings, but I do think we will hear less of Mack's name being thrown around since we're in a big conference (I don't think Alabama would even be a lateral move).

And he's being paid....and making more every game....

[GoMuskies]

I'm actually sort of interested to see how the BE will change these speculations. Obviously, Archie will be a hot name for big openings, but I do think we will hear less of Mack's name being thrown around since we're in a big conference (I don't think Alabama would even be a lateral move).

Depends on how important money is to Mack, because Alabama can clearly pay quite a bit more.

[paulxu]

Depends on how important money is to Mack, because Alabama can clearly pay quite a bit more.

But their board of trustees may vote to drop basketball.

[X-Fan]

Depends on how important money is to Mack, because Alabama can clearly pay quite a bit more.
How'd that work out for Anthony Grant? I love that there are a number of cautionary tales out there of hot coaches going to marginal BBall schools and fading into irrelivancy. Grass is not always greener, in fact it usually isn't.

[Fireball]

I'm pretty sure that if I looked through this thread alone, I would find plenty of posts that intimate or even say directly that Xavier needs to find a way to move on from Chris Mack.

[Muskeagle]

The negative tone against Mack was palpable. The feeling that "hey, we are X....we deserve to be great! If we aren't great all the time, it must be the coach's fault...or the players are just not good enough...which is the coach's fault because he can't develop them or they were bad when we recruited them!" was ALL over the board for a VERY long stretch of the season. It made the board difficult to read. I've seen a lot of reaction that this is a message board, you should expect criticism. I get that. We all get that. But for those of you who are saying "it wasn't that bad...people were just critiquing the coach a little.....NO. It was that bad. Our players "sucked." "Dumbest team I've ever seen play." "No basketball IQ." "Coach Mack never develops anyone." blah blah blah. Much of it was personal and not constructive.

Here is a sampling from this thread from the first 10 pages alone. Not all of it is calling for Mack's head....but it's reflective of the negative tenor that was pretty much all pervasive in January and February:

--I'll say this - we were a heck of a lot closer to a national title in years past (including Macks first years) than we are now. And I do not in any way shape or form believe that the majority of the blame for that can bE found with the guys wearing the uniforms.

--It is hilarious and at the same time very sad watching people scramble to come up with excuses for why the team is not playing particularly well.

--About to be 5-19 in games away from cintas over last two years. Nuff said

--The last 2 1/2 years have been underwhelming. Stop making excuses and get busy.

--It is something Mack needs to prove he can do. Not just blame the players he recruited when things go wrong.

--We have enough good players now to win the big east. Mack said as much right before the season. So there are no excuses. This team just needs to be shown the way.

--Bottom line: I'm concluding that Coach Mack is likely a very Good basketball mind, but not a very good manager resulting in uncertainty from his players as to what's expected of them. The result: inconsistent performance and results even from high performers.

[XU 87]

The negative tone against Mack was palpable. The feeling that "hey, we are X....we deserve to be great! If we aren't great all the time, it must be the coach's fault...or the players are just not good enough...which is the coach's fault because he can't develop them or they were bad when we recruited them!" was ALL over the board for a VERY long stretch of the season. It made the board difficult to read. I've seen a lot of reaction that this is a message board, you should expect criticism. I get that. We all get that. But for those of you who are saying "it wasn't that bad...people were just critiquing the coach a little.....NO. It was that bad. Our players "sucked." "Dumbest team I've ever seen play." "No basketball IQ." "Coach Mack never develops anyone." blah blah blah. Much of it was personal and not constructive.

Here is a sampling from this thread from the first 10 pages alone. Not all of it is calling for Mack's head....but it's reflective of the negative tenor that was pretty much all pervasive in January and February:

--I'll say this - we were a heck of a lot closer to a national title in years past (including Macks first years) than we are now. And I do not in any way shape or form believe that the majority of the blame for that can bE found with the guys wearing the uniforms.

--It is hilarious and at the same time very sad watching people scramble to come up with excuses for why the team is not playing particularly well.

--About to be 5-19 in games away from cintas over last two years. Nuff said

--The last 2 1/2 years have been underwhelming. Stop making excuses and get busy.

--It is something Mack needs to prove he can do. Not just blame the players he recruited when things go wrong.

--We have enough good players now to win the big east. Mack said as much right before the season. So there are no excuses. This team just needs to be shown the way.

--Bottom line: I'm concluding that Coach Mack is likely a very Good basketball mind, but not a very good manager resulting in uncertainty from his players as to what's expected of them. The result: inconsistent performance and results even from high performers.

As one of our wise posters has said, " A season is a lifetime."

That's why we, me included, shouldn't freak out in the middle of the season after a bad loss. Things can and do change. Teams can and do get better.

[waggy]

Yeah the uncertainty of the players due to substitution patterns, "dog housing", general ineptitude, ...that was awesome stuff.

[markchal]

As one of our wise posters has said, " A season is a lifetime."

That's why we, me included, shouldn't freak out in the middle of the season after a bad loss. Things can and do change. Teams can and do get better.

If you guys think that is bad, you need to read the messageboard of a team who actually has a coach on the hot seat. We've been spoiled, and none of those were crazily out-of-line posts for where we were at that time. No one was quitting on this team in January, but some were (rightfully so) disappointed with the way we were playing.

While there are a number of reasons we haven't really seen it before March, I don't think anyone here would argue that this team has played better at any point in the season than they have in the last few weeks. It's not hard to understand where they were coming from back then.

To me, this is almost as pointless as going through a game thread long after the buzzer and ridiculing something said after a bad play in a game that turns out to be a win.

[Xpectations]

If you had a batting average for XU coaches making it to the Sweet 16 (appearances / years coaching at X), it would look like this:

Chris Mack: .500 (3 for 6)
Sean Miller .400 (2 for 5)
Thad Matta .333 (1 for 3)
Pete Gillen: .111 (1 for 9)
Skip Prosser: .000 (0 for 7)



Understand, I'm not trying to make the case that Mack is the best coach. I think Miller was handed the least amount of ready-to-produce talent coming into his tenure, and Matta was handed the most by far. But it's very tough to suck as a coach and be in the Sweet 16 every other year.

[XU 87]

If you guys think that is bad, you need to read the messageboard of a team who actually has a coach on the hot seat. We've been spoiled, and none of those were crazily out-of-line posts for where we were at that time. No one was quitting on this team in January, but some were (rightfully so) disappointed with the way we were playing.



I don't care about other message boards, or other fans. I care about our fans, me included. Don't overreact when things aren't going so good.

[muethibp]

Too much is made of NCAA success in judging whether coaches and programs are doing well or not.

I mean, take UD for example. Dayton beat tOSU last year in the first round in a game that featured like 4 lead changes in the final minute - the result of that game is almost entirely luck at that point. And then, of course, they went on to win another close game and then face a 10 seed in the sweet 16. Lose that first game and the Dayton fans grow restless with the state of the program - but win and then get more luck, and all of the sudden Archie is a genius and the program is on the right track.

We've had our own dose of luck in recent years (Lehigh bumping off Duke in 2012, getting overseeded this year and then drawing an exhausted play-in game opponent followed by a 14 seed) - I'm happy the team took advantage of it but relying on luck repeating is foolhardy.

Today there are dueling narratives about two Big East teams - one, our X, which is being lauded for consistency and another, Villanova, being questioned for resiliency and tournament performance. And yet anyone with a pair of eyes knows, for example, that Villanova is a WAY better basketball team this year than Xavier.

So be happy for where we are but don't let the luck/crapshoot that is the tournament sway your opinion too much in any one direction.

[D-West & PO-Z]

The negative tone against Mack was palpable. The feeling that "hey, we are X....we deserve to be great! If we aren't great all the time, it must be the coach's fault...or the players are just not good enough...which is the coach's fault because he can't develop them or they were bad when we recruited them!" was ALL over the board for a VERY long stretch of the season. It made the board difficult to read. I've seen a lot of reaction that this is a message board, you should expect criticism. I get that. We all get that. But for those of you who are saying "it wasn't that bad...people were just critiquing the coach a little.....NO. It was that bad. Our players "sucked." "Dumbest team I've ever seen play." "No basketball IQ." "Coach Mack never develops anyone." blah blah blah. Much of it was personal and not constructive.

Here is a sampling from this thread from the first 10 pages alone. Not all of it is calling for Mack's head....but it's reflective of the negative tenor that was pretty much all pervasive in January and February:

--I'll say this - we were a heck of a lot closer to a national title in years past (including Macks first years) than we are now. And I do not in any way shape or form believe that the majority of the blame for that can bE found with the guys wearing the uniforms.

--It is hilarious and at the same time very sad watching people scramble to come up with excuses for why the team is not playing particularly well.

--About to be 5-19 in games away from cintas over last two years. Nuff said

--The last 2 1/2 years have been underwhelming. Stop making excuses and get busy.

--It is something Mack needs to prove he can do. Not just blame the players he recruited when things go wrong.

--We have enough good players now to win the big east. Mack said as much right before the season. So there are no excuses. This team just needs to be shown the way.

--Bottom line: I'm concluding that Coach Mack is likely a very Good basketball mind, but not a very good manager resulting in uncertainty from his players as to what's expected of them. The result: inconsistent performance and results even from high performers.

Dont forget this gem:

I completely agree V. Speaking of trend...time to post my annual Chris Mack "Hater" image. To some degree every Chris Mack-coached Xavier team has experienced these same issues. Nothing seems to improve including our recruits. Do believe he can recruit. Just don't believe he can coach in practice or during games. I long for the day I don't feel compelled to post this image. Sad.

https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7514/16263624676_2d300a0ce3_b.jpg

[Smails]

I don't care about other message boards, or other fans. I care about our fans, me included. Don't overreact when things aren't going so good.


This. When you spew negativity on a public forum, when you speak of the program's downward spiral, when you question the basketball IQ and toughness of players and coaches...and then said team ends up in the sweet 16, be prepared to hear about it. Posting does not come with impunity

[D-West & PO-Z]

This. When you spew negativity on a public forum, when you speak of the program's downward spiral, when you question the basketball IQ and toughness of players and coaches...and then said team ends up in the sweet 16, be prepared to hear about it. Posting does not come with impunity

But they were just frustrated, it isnt fair to talk about it later, right? It was just heat of the moment. :rolleyes:

[ArizonaXUGrad]

I was one of those guys, it was at the point in the season where I thought we were out of the tournament. I felt that if we were NIT bound that his performance should be reviewed and have strong goals the next season. Clearly, this year's bubble was weak and we benefited from a tough conference by getting a favorable seed.

Team still has to win two games to get to the sweet 16 and they did it by beating at least one team with a projected NBA first rounder. We don't even have that.

[Smails]

But they were just frustrated, it isnt fair to talk about it later, right? It was just heat of the moment. :rolleyes:

I'm going to the try the 'heat of the moment' excuse the next time I say something stupid to my wife or mouth off to my boss in a less than professional way. I'm sure they'll be more than understanding. Or maybe, just maybe they'll hold me accountable for my words and actions.

[LadyMuskie]

We've had our own dose of luck in recent years (Lehigh bumping off Duke in 2012, getting overseeded this year and then drawing an exhausted play-in game opponent followed by a 14 seed) - I'm happy the team took advantage of it but relying on luck repeating is foolhardy.



This is bullcrap and I'll tell you why.

This team is playing it's very best ball of the year right now. We shot 81% from the field in the second half of Saturday's game. That's not luck. That's not because we played a far less superior team. It's because we are playing very, very well. Stain and Dee had tremendous games against Ole Miss, who had the advantage of already having won one tournament game before matching up against us. We came into both games fired up, and frankly we had to play 30 solid minutes of ball to beat an equally fired up Georgia State. Neither game was given to us because we're lucky. We worked damn hard to earn the spot we have. (Side rant: Why is it that when a play-in game winner loses in the second round, it's because they're tired and weren't really good to begin with? But, when they win in the second round and advance it's because they've got great momentum? Maybe, occasionally it has to do with the team they're playing.)

Six weeks ago if you had told me that we had to face Arizona in the tournament, I'd have been as worried as anyone about our chances, but if we're punching on all cylinders like we have been I think we give Arizona a really good game.

As for the rest of it, the season was frustrating. Mack more or less said so himself in countless postgame interviews throughout the year. We were up. We were down. We had issues. It is what it is. I'm just going to sit back and enjoy the fact that we are one of only 16 schools still playing ball and we're the only school in Ohio still playing. If you want to gloat, I suggest finding a VD, UC or OSU fan. Most of us on this board are X fans and only want the best for the program. At the end of the day, being a jackhole is the same whether you're a holier than thou jackhole or an overly dramatic pessimistic jackhole.

[XU 87]

Too much is made of NCAA success in judging whether coaches and programs are doing well or not.




Doing well in the NCAA makes up for a lot of sins during the year.

That said, not doing well in the NCAA does not then mean your season is ruined -imho (see Villanova)

[Muskeagle]

I was just trying to point out that things were overly negative and myopic during a long stretch of the season and the tenor of the board did become difficult to deal with. It felt like one bitch session after another. Moreover, the people who are saying it wasn't so bad...are kidding themselves now.

It WAS frustrating to watch this team at times, but the people who were negative and making fun of those with positive outlooks as being unrealistic and looking through "rose" colored glasses should be able to take the same sort of criticism now....that maybe THEIR perspective was a bit off.

In the end, we are all happy with the way the team is playing now, but when things go slightly awry perhaps in the future there can be a little more "critique" and a little less over the top "criticism" the board could be a better place.

[muskiefan82]

In 1990, Xavier beat Georgetown to advance to the Sweet 16 for the first time in program history.

I waited 14 years to experience the second weekend again as a fan in 2004.

Since 2004, I have watched X play in the second weekend 5 more times. All of those have come in the last 8 seasons. I don't care who X beat to get there and I don't care who they have to play.

They are in the Sweet 16. AGAIN. Frankly, I am pumped and declaring this SEASON 1 of the 2014-15 Freshman Class. Go X! If you want to be looked at as a power team, you have to play and beat the power teams. Arizona, love them or hate them, is a power team at the highest level.

[Masterofreality]

Georgia State was a legit tourney team. We even had to deal with Harrow, who contributed 6 points, that Baylor did not. Would these posters and pundits be saying the same thing if we had beaten Indiana or Purdue- both of which we're lower rated?

[LadyMuskie]

Doing well in the NCAA makes up for a lot of sins during the year.

That said, not doing well in the NCAA does not then mean your season is ruined -imho (see Villanova)

Clearly you are not a sports broadcasting expert type person. Because if you were, you'd know that winning does not validate your seed (which you most certainly did not deserve unless you were accepted into the cool group of teams/programs before the unveiling of the brackets. Scott Van Pelt and Doug Gottleib handle invitations to said cool group.) On the other hand, losing just goes to show that EVERYONE was right and your program is nothing but a lifeforce-sucking pariah which in no way whatsoever deserved the seed it got.

[Masterofreality]

I was just trying to point out that things were overly negative and myopic during a long stretch of the season and the tenor of the board did become difficult to deal with. It felt like one bitch session after another. Moreover, the people who are saying it wasn't so bad...are kidding themselves now.

It WAS frustrating to watch this team at times, but the people who were negative and making fun of those with positive outlooks as being unrealistic and looking through "rose" colored glasses should be able to take the same sort of criticism now....that maybe THEIR perspective was a bit off.

In the end, we are all happy with the way the team is playing now, but when things go slightly awry perhaps in the future there can be a little more "critique" and a little less over the top "criticism" the board could be a better place.

Here's the problem. Whenever someone post negative stuff about us, NO credit is given the opposition. They're pretty good too. The view is too myopic. It's not always us playing or coaching horribly.

[xu82]

They are in the Sweet 16. AGAIN. Frankly, I am pumped and declaring this SEASON 1 of the 2014-15 Freshman Class. Go X! If you want to be looked at as a power team, you have to play and beat the power teams. Arizona, love them or hate them, is a power team at the highest level.

I don't know... if we beat Arizona it will be difficult for the folks at ESPN to carry the alloted time discussing the collapse of the Wildcats, how it came to be such an off night and what it means to the elite eight. Oh, and how that team that benefited from the collapse is unlikely to show up for the Elite Eight so it's pretty much a walk over for the next opponent.

[XUFan09]

Three things:

1) I don't know how many times it needs to be said, but the staff was not worried at all about playing Duke in 2012. It was by no means a guaranteed win, but the Duke guards could not have defended Tu and Mark, whereas Tu and Mark were good defenders. You couldn't have asked for a much better second round matchup, but instead they got a team led by future lottery pick C.J. McCollum, who was a formidable matchup by himself. Facing Duke versus facing Lehigh was close to a wash because of the big disparity in matchups countering the difference in talent (outside McCollum, of course).

2) Xavier beat Ole Miss by 19 . Giving the excuse that Ole Miss tired of even "exhausted" (Did they play that morning or something?) is bullshit. They manhandled them. Plus, if Ole Miss had won, it would have been because of "momentum" and "getting past first game jitters." You can't have it both ways. In fact, play-in teams had better records in the first three years than bye teams with the same seed.

3) Xavier got a little luck with seeding but most of their seeding had to do with their resume. Simply put, they were the last 6 seed. Could they have fallen to the 7 seed line? Yes, easily, but they could have also easily been up higher on the S-curve. It goes both ways. If they had fallen, though, it's not like the 10 seeds were that impressive.

[muethibp]

This is bullcrap and I'll tell you why.

This team is playing it's very best ball of the year right now. We shot 81% from the field in the second half of Saturday's game. That's not luck. That's not because we played a far less superior team. It's because we are playing very, very well. Stain and Dee had tremendous games against Ole Miss, who had the advantage of already having won one tournament game before matching up against us. We came into both games fired up, and frankly we had to play 30 solid minutes of ball to beat an equally fired up Georgia State. Neither game was given to us because we're lucky. We worked damn hard to earn the spot we have. (Side rant: Why is it that when a play-in game winner loses in the second round, it's because they're tired and weren't really good to begin with? But, when they win in the second round and advance it's because they've got great momentum? Maybe, occasionally it has to do with the team they're playing.)

Six weeks ago if you had told me that we had to face Arizona in the tournament, I'd have been as worried as anyone about our chances, but if we're punching on all cylinders like we have been I think we give Arizona a really good game.

As for the rest of it, the season was frustrating. Mack more or less said so himself in countless postgame interviews throughout the year. We were up. We were down. We had issues. It is what it is. I'm just going to sit back and enjoy the fact that we are one of only 16 schools still playing ball and we're the only school in Ohio still playing. If you want to gloat, I suggest finding a VD, UC or OSU fan. Most of us on this board are X fans and only want the best for the program. At the end of the day, being a jackhole is the same whether you're a holier than thou jackhole or an overly dramatic pessimistic jackhole.

Unless you think doing so was planned or repeatable or a fair representation of a team's true shooting ability under such circumstances or would hold over a meaningful sample size, shooting 81% in a half - right on the biggest stage, right at the moment it's needed - is actually the very epitome of luck.

[XUFan09]

Unless you think doing so was planned or repeatable or a fair representation of a team's true shooting ability under such circumstances or would hold over a meaningful sample size, shooting 81% in a half - right on the biggest stage, right at the moment it's needed - is actually the very epitome of luck.
And a 29% shooter hitting 30-footers is too.

I'm referring to our game, not the game-winner against Baylor.

[GoMuskies]

And a 29% shooter hitting 30-footers is too.

I only remember him hitting one of those shots against us.

[smileyy]

Unless you think doing so was planned or repeatable or a fair representation of a team's true shooting ability under such circumstances or would hold over a meaningful sample size, shooting 81% in a half - right on the biggest stage, right at the moment it's needed - is actually the very epitome of luck.

Skill? Execution? (or lack thereof?) Playing offense and defense isn't rolling dice. We're not playing Strat-o-matic March Madness here.

[LadyMuskie]

Unless you think doing so was planned or repeatable or a fair representation of a team's true shooting ability under such circumstances or would hold over a meaningful sample size, shooting 81% in a half - right on the biggest stage, right at the moment it's needed - is actually the very epitome of luck.

I think it was planned inasmuch as these guys have skill and they practice. It's not like Mack went around campus last week and just grabbed the first 15 guys he saw, put them in uniforms and prayed they'd turn out to be good shooters.

[XU 87]

Three things:

1) I don't know how many times it needs to be said, but the staff was not worried at all about playing Duke in 2012. It was by no means a guaranteed win, but the Duke guards could not have defended Tu and Mark, whereas Tu and Mark were good defenders. You couldn't have asked for a much better second round matchup, but instead they got a team led by future lottery pick C.J. McCollum, who was a formidable matchup by himself. Facing Duke versus facing Lehigh was close to a wash because of the big disparity in matchups countering the difference in talent (outside McCollum, of course).



Duke/Lehigh was played before the X/ND game. Duke's guards couldn't cover Lehigh's guards, including but not limited to McCollum. That's why Duke lost. And if Duke couldn't cover Lehigh's guards, they weren't going to be able to cover XU's guards.

[XU 87]

We've had our own dose of luck in recent years (Lehigh bumping off Duke in 2012, getting overseeded this year and then drawing an exhausted play-in game opponent followed by a 14 seed) - I'm happy the team took advantage of it but relying on luck repeating is foolhardy.




I would argue we got bad luck in that tournament. See the posts above about playing Duke. While I would rather have played Lehigh over Duke, I don't think it was some great stroke of luck that we didn't have to play Duke. Duke's guards couldn't guard X's guards.

But on top of that, Dez and the 5th year senior/starter whose names escapes me, both got hurt and didn't play well in the Baylor game.

[XUFan09]

I only remember him hitting one of those shots against us.
It was, but it was a key momentum shifter when Xavier was pulling away. That shot kept them in the game and prevented it from getting ugly.

[XUFan09]

I would argue we got bad luck in that tournament. See the posts above about playing Duke. While I would rather have played Lehigh over Duke, I don't think it was some great stroke of luck that we didn't have to play Duke. Duke's guards couldn't guard X's guards.

But on top of that, Dez and the 5th year senior/starter whose names escapes me, both got hurt and didn't play well in the Baylor game.
Andre Walker. Yeah, he had concussive symptoms. Dez hurt his ankle, I think?

[muethibp]

I would argue we got bad luck in that tournament. See the posts above about playing Duke. While I would rather have played Lehigh over Duke, I don't think it was some great stroke of luck that we didn't have to play Duke. Duke's guards couldn't guard X's guards.

But on top of that, Dez and the 5th year senior/starter whose names escapes me, both got hurt and didn't play well in the Baylor game.

I think it's a little much for me to assume that Xavier would have beaten a #2 seed just because our guards were good.

But, no matter. You want to talk about luck in that tournament? How about having Notre Dame's made front end of a 1-and-1 with 2 seconds left not count because of a lane violation at the top of the key? (http://espn.go.com/blog/collegebasketballnation/post/_/id/54475/rapid-reaction-xavier-67-notre-dame-63) Because I'd call that pretty lucky.

It's this kind of stuff - "can you f'n believe that just happened?" moments - that people forget in the always-increasing stakes of the tournament. Chris Mack is no better coach because that free throw is waved off and yet it was a material factor in making the sweet 16 that year.

[XUFan09]

Duke/Lehigh was played before the X/ND game. Duke's guards couldn't cover Lehigh's guards, including but not limited to McCollum. That's why Duke lost. And if Duke couldn't cover Lehigh's guards, they weren't going to be able to cover XU's guards.
Yep. Notre Dame was easily the toughest team for Xavier in that pod.

[muethibp]

I think it was planned inasmuch as these guys have skill and they practice. It's not like Mack went around campus last week and just grabbed the first 15 guys he saw, put them in uniforms and prayed they'd turn out to be good shooters.

I don't think we're talking the same language. I think shooting 81% in a half is not a repeatable skill based on...well...a century of statistics, and you think it was "planned" because "the guys have skill and they practice."

[markchal]

I don't think we're talking the same language. I think shooting 81% in a half is not a repeatable skill based on...well...a century of statistics, and you think it was "planned" because "the guys have skill and they practice."

Personally, I like to think every other team we've played this season has been the true beneficiary of luck because we didn't shoot our customary 81 percent against them.

[LadyMuskie]

I don't think we're talking the same language. I think shooting 81% in a half is not a repeatable skill based on...well...a century of statistics, and you think it was "planned" because "the guys have skill and they practice."

Shooting 81% is possible because the guys do have skill and they do practice. It is going to happen every game? Unlikely, but that doesn't make it impossible or pure luck when it does happen. Hell, Mack even said in the postgame presser that Myles didn't miss a shot in shoot around. Saying we shot well and subsequently won because we were lucky takes away all the hard work, dedication, talent and skill these guys have. We owned both of the teams we played. We didn't just win at the last minute because we got hot, or balls started to fall. We came to play. And our play won.

[muethibp]

Personally, I like to think every other team we've played this season has been the true beneficiary of luck because we didn't shoot our customary 81 percent against them.

:biggrin:

[XU 87]

I think it's a little much for me to assume that Xavier would have beaten a #2 seed just because our guards were good.

But, no matter. You want to talk about luck in that tournament? How about having Notre Dame's made front end of a 1-and-1 with 2 seconds left not count because of a lane violation at the top of the key? (http://espn.go.com/blog/collegebasketballnation/post/_/id/54475/rapid-reaction-xavier-67-notre-dame-63) Because I'd call that pretty lucky.

It's this kind of stuff - "can you f'n believe that just happened?" moments - that people forget in the always-increasing stakes of the tournament. Chris Mack is no better coach because that free throw is waved off and yet it was a material factor in making the sweet 16 that year.

I said they couldn't cover our guards. If they got drilled by Lehigh's guards, they were going to get drilled by X's guards.

But you're really reaching and getting into the world of speculation about this "luck factor" and really taking away from some pretty good accomplishments and good coaching. "Ole' Miss was tired, we got too high of a seed, duke lost to Lehigh, and an ND guy had lane violation"- to name a few that you have named. I doubt the Baylor fans are saying they were lucky to get to the elite 8 by beating a Xavier team with two injured starters.

I forgot to include that you think shooting 81% from the field in the second half was also lucky. Or maybe it was because X got a LOT of really, really good looks, including a lot of dunks and layups. X wasn't banking in threes.

Actually, I agree with what Waggy wrote below. There was some good and bad fortune involved. Your posts just come across as "it took a lot of luck" to get to these sweet 16's. I think it's primarily "X played really well."

[waggy]

I think there is an element of good and/or bad fortune. It can be argued, but it's a really really boring argument that goes nowhere.

[muethibp]

I said they couldn't cover our guards. If they got drilled by Lehigh's guards, they were going to get drilled by X's guards.

But you're really reaching and getting into the world of speculation about this "luck factor" and really taking away from some pretty good accomplishments and good coaching. "Ole' Miss was tired, we got too high of a seed, duke lost to Lehigh, and an ND guy had lane violation"- to name a few that you have named. I doubt the Baylor fans are saying they were lucky to get to the elite 8 by beating a Xavier team with two injured starters.

I forgot to include that you think shooting 81% from the field in the second half was also lucky. Or maybe it was because X got a LOT of really, really good looks, including a lot of dunks and layups. X wasn't banking in threes.

I don't understand why people are struggling with this concept this much. Only 3 out of 351 teams were able to shoot over 50% for this season - and Xavier shot 885 for 1870 for 47.3%. But on Saturday we shot 68% for the game and 81% for the second half. Those numbers are substantial outliers from what would be statistically expected (with all practice and skill already factored in to the 47.3%) and if the team shot long enough on Saturday, it would definitely - beyond any question - have begun missing shots so as to regress to the mean. That's how math works, there's no gray area. That the good run occurred during the game and not the corresponding bad run is luck.

Which is fine, there's no apologizing for it, I'm happy it happened. My whole point, though, pages ago is that people should temper their reactions one way or another. If we had run into bad luck - be it shooting or injury or anything else - it wouldn't make Mack a bad coach, and the run of good luck doesn't make him a good coach. Judge coaches on their management of the program, regular season success (where good luck and bad luck cancel each other out in a statistically significant way), and other factors before factoring too much in on the tournament.

[Drew's Crew]

I don't understand why people are struggling with this concept this much. Only 3 out of 351 teams were able to shoot over 50% for this season - and Xavier shot 885 for 1870 for 47.3%. But on Saturday we shot 68% for the game and 81% for the second half. Those numbers are substantial outliers from what would be statistically expected (with all practice and skill already factored in to the 47.3%) and if the team shot long enough on Saturday, it would definitely - beyond any question - have begun missing shots so as to regress to the mean. That's how math works, there's no gray area. That the good run occurred during the game and not the corresponding bad run is luck.

Which is fine, there's no apologizing for it, I'm happy it happened. My whole point, though, pages ago is that people should temper their reactions one way or another. If we had run into bad luck - be it shooting or injury or anything else - it wouldn't make Mack a bad coach, and the run of good luck doesn't make him a good coach. Judge coaches on their management of the program, regular season success (where good luck and bad luck cancel each other out in a statistically significant way), and other factors before factoring too much in on the tournament.

So, just to clarify - do you think we would have lost if we had shot somewhere closer to 65-70%?

I guess you're assuming we would've gotten no offensive putbacks too?

The premise of your contention is that we were lucky to shoot such a high percentage, therefore lucky to win. If you think that - ok, got it. I disagree, but that's fine.

I think a lot of people (myself included) don't think we needed to shoot lights out to win the game, especially since we were up 10 with 1:30 to go.

Also, I understand the idea of judging a coach based on all the factors, but to say that CONSISTENTLY winning in March (when all the pressure is on both players and coaches) doesn't make him good is silly. Would you trade Jay Wright for Tom Izzo? Hell yeah you would, and I don't need to explain why.

The last two seasons (when Nova has been great in the reg season), who would you have more faith in, MSU or Nova? MSU of course.

We praise players that prepare well and execute in big games, but can't do the same for coaches? When a coach is able to consistently out-perform his peers in a hectic travel and prep schedule, that makes him good at what he does.

[D-West & PO-Z]

I think this is overselling it a lot. I never saw a single post that said his seat should be hot this year. Most of the ones I saw were contingent on him missing the tournament this year and next. Also can't remember a single serious post from someone hoping he'd be hired away this year.


-Chris Mack deserves nothing positive from his coaching (or lack thereof) this year.

-I will openly state that Mack needs a better offensive scheme...as in, he needs one, period.

-After yesterday's loss I am ready for Xavier and Chris Mack to part ways.

-We are not going to reach the next level with Chris Mack or even consistently contend for the second weekend in the tournament. For so many years, Xavier teams got better and better as the season went on. I don't see that happening with this team or any of Chris Mack's teams over the last 4 years.

-I am okay with Mack staying if there is no one better out there. But I have given up hope that we will progress as a program, which is what I really want deep down.

-Ain't going to use my tickets again until we get a coaching change. It's not a statement; I just don't care. And if we don't get a change before next season starts, I will not be renewing my seats.

-This season is - exactly - why I said in May that we should let him leave if he demands an extension to stay.

-Please take him.

-Though I don't think XU should outright fire Chris Mack, I don't think XU should stop him from speaking with other job openings. Let me him talk to the Tennessee's/OSUs/Wake Forests that come offering HC positions and if he takes one we go out and get a Holtman type of coach who will come in and actually preach defense.

-Give me some coaches that know X's and O's...we have talent here, but it's going to waste with this current staff.

[Wheelhouse]

Too much is made of NCAA success in judging whether coaches and programs are doing well or not.

I mean, take UD for example. Dayton beat tOSU last year in the first round in a game that featured like 4 lead changes in the final minute - the result of that game is almost entirely luck at that point. And then, of course, they went on to win another close game and then face a 10 seed in the sweet 16. Lose that first game and the Dayton fans grow restless with the state of the program - but win and then get more luck, and all of the sudden Archie is a genius and the program is on the right track.

We've had our own dose of luck in recent years (Lehigh bumping off Duke in 2012, getting overseeded this year and then drawing an exhausted play-in game opponent followed by a 14 seed) - I'm happy the team took advantage of it but relying on luck repeating is foolhardy.

Today there are dueling narratives about two Big East teams - one, our X, which is being lauded for consistency and another, Villanova, being questioned for resiliency and tournament performance. And yet anyone with a pair of eyes knows, for example, that Villanova is a WAY better basketball team this year than Xavier.

So be happy for where we are but don't let the luck/crapshoot that is the tournament sway your opinion too much in any one direction.

Very sound take.

[Xpectations]

I don't understand why people are struggling with this concept this much. Only 3 out of 351 teams were able to shoot over 50% for this season - and Xavier shot 885 for 1870 for 47.3%. But on Saturday we shot 68% for the game and 81% for the second half. Those numbers are substantial outliers from what would be statistically expected (with all practice and skill already factored in to the 47.3%) and if the team shot long enough on Saturday, it would definitely - beyond any question - have begun missing shots so as to regress to the mean. That's how math works, there's no gray area. That the good run occurred during the game and not the corresponding bad run is luck.

Which is fine, there's no apologizing for it, I'm happy it happened. My whole point, though, pages ago is that people should temper their reactions one way or another. If we had run into bad luck - be it shooting or injury or anything else - it wouldn't make Mack a bad coach, and the run of good luck doesn't make him a good coach. Judge coaches on their management of the program, regular season success (where good luck and bad luck cancel each other out in a statistically significant way), and other factors before factoring too much in on the tournament.

I understand the point and agree that you don't want to have to rely on shooting 68% from the field to win games.

Drew's response is a good one in that XU was getting offensive rebounds at a 39% clip against Georgia State, which often creates easy putbacks, etc. even though the miss hurts your shooting percentage.

Another consideration is the high-gambling style of play that Georgia State used. They forced us into making TOs 25.2% of the time, which would rank #3 in the country if you did that over the course of a season. They clearly saw it gave them their best chance against a stronger opponent and used it against Baylor, forcing Baylor to turn it over at a 36.4% clip--an off-the-charts number (the nation's best TO% defense, WVU, averaged 28.3%).

Georgia State also took even greater risks on defense (doubles, traps, steal attempts, etc.) as the game went on to try and close the gap.

My point is that our shooting % was largely due to generating very high % open looks when Georgia State gambled and failed. So that high shooting % was in large part to Georgia State's defensive strategy and execution, and not just luck.

[XU 87]

Andre Walker. Yeah, he had concussive symptoms. Dez hurt his ankle, I think?

Dez hurt his ankle and didn't do too much in the Baylor game.

Dez had 2 points in that game. Andre Walker had no points.

X lost by 5. A little better luck (healthy starters) and X wins that game.

[NY44]

"I'm a great believer in luck, and I find the harder I work the more I have of it." - TJefferson