Third Round Wooden Game Thread

[Muskie]

X v. LBSU
4:00 P.M.
ESPNU

[GoMuskies]

X was an 8 point favorite when I checked this morning. I think that's too high.

[Jesuit4Life]

Stream:

http://wiz1.net/channel55
http://cricfree.sx/live/watch/long_beach_state_vs_xavier/65868

[Emp]

Delayed start.

The line dropped to 6.5 quickly this morning, then bounced back. What does that mean?

I'm going to be peeking at NE@GB, does that make me a bad person?

[mistabeecee41]

If I'm mack I sub out all 5 starters. Jesus.

[paulxu]

Those streams don't work for me and I don't get ESPNU.
So.........get it done those of you who can watch the guys!!

[Muskeagle]

sloppy start!

[Jesuit4Life]

Those streams don't work for me and I don't get ESPNU.
So.........get it done those of you who can watch the guys!!

Wiziwig is on our game. Install Ad Block for your browser to get rid of any pop-ups.
https://adblockplus.org/

[BMoreX]

No one making shots

[GoMuskies]

I'm in the office and cannot watch....and from looking at the score I am thankful that I cannot watch.

[Muskeagle]

blech. ugly

[gladdenguy]

Live chat?????????????

[BMoreX]

Awful half.

[Xavgrad08]

Ugly, first half of basketball. X has a 3 point lead at the half.

[gladdenguy]

Can't hit a 3. Stupid turnovers. Can't lose this game

[paulxu]

10 TO's to 6 assists and 0-6 from behind the arc is buck ugly.

On a positive note, we have twice the rebounds. Should be up by about 10.

[XfansinKy]

Wow its a good thing LB sucks. That wa like watching church league ball.

[xsteve1]

Need to put these guys away early or it's going to be tough. Better defense but just too sloppy. Remy needs more minutes.

[waggy]

Only 10 to? Does that include the 3 or 4 offensive fouls?

[GoMuskies]

I can only see the box score. Even though he cannot hit the broad side of a barn, it's good to see Jimmy with 10 boards and 3 blocks. +13 on the boards is nice. Those are all of the good things I see other than the lead.

Wait, we're 100% from the line. That's good, too!

[bleedXblue]

Love the defense and rebounding for the most part. Sumner quickly lost his man twice for open 3's. Now you know why he's getting limited minutes. No ones made a 3. Why Farr continues to shoot 18-20 footers is beyond me. Why we don't try and get Blueitt and Myles more shots is puzzling. Theyre our best shooters.

[xukeith]

Think X will have difficulty on the road this season?

[BMoreX]

LBSU is heating up.

[xsteve1]

LBSU is heating up.

Yep. X down 2.

[BMoreX]

LBSU is heating up.

Three 3's in a row.

[paulxu]

I think I'm glad I can't see this.

[D-West & PO-Z]

Dee just walked towards Caffey there on that 3 point shot. Terrible.

[GoMuskies]

I think I'm glad I can't see this.

Me, too!

[xukeith]

Dee Davis not well as traveling to the bench per Joe Sunderman.

[paulxu]

Caffey has 3 3's. Is anyone guarding him?

[bleedXblue]

Mack up to his just let the other team scorch you and don't call a time out. Caffey has 4 3's in the second half and they've all been pretty much uncontested.

[GoMuskies]

Caffey has 3 3's. Is anyone guarding him?

Your feed must be slow. It's 4.

[xsteve1]

Dee just walked towards Caffey there on that 3 point shot. Terrible.

Agree. Even though he took a shot to the face you can't quit on the play.

[bleedXblue]

Toughness is just not there.

[gladdenguy]

This team sucks away from Cintas

[xsteve1]

Why take Remy out?

[paulxu]

ESPN has him with 3 -3's and a 2 in second half.

(It could also be slow. And I really don't want to know.)

[BMoreX]

LBSU just wants it more.

Embarrassing performance so far.

[GoMuskies]

ESPN has him with 3 -3's and a 2 in second half.

(It could also be slow. And I really don't want to know.)

For me ESPN has him 4-5 from 3, 6-11 overall.

[BMoreX]

Can;t buy a three pointer.

[xukeith]

UC and XU having a rough weekend. Where is the offense? Thank you Macura and Blueitt!

[GoMuskies]

LBSU just wants it more.

Embarrassing performance so far.

To be fair, I think even Ray Charles could see this coming after the way we handled them at home. They're not a bad team, and you knew they'd make it tough in a rematch.

[paulxu]

For me ESPN has him 4-5 from 3, 6-11 overall.

Agree. 1 was in the first half.

This is a test of whether your team is tough. You have the better team. You're on a neutral floor. Do you really want it?

[xukeith]

LBSU just wants it more.

Embarrassing performance so far.
Maybe LBS will have a good season.
Thank goodness X is playing a weaker SOS than usual. Inflate a record, hopefully, before BE starts.

[xukeith]

Frosh are carrying this X team with weak offense. Consequently, poor defense.

[GoMuskies]

Nice 7-0 run

[xukeith]

Stainbrook, 3 frosh and 1 sophomore playing for X = no defense. Down 2 points.

[gladdenguy]

Hit a 3!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[BMoreX]

Still can't buy a 3.

[sgarcia]

Can we please put Remy back in the game?

[xukeith]

0-11 from 3 pointy land. Stop shooting them

[xsteve1]

Where the eff is Remy?

[xukeith]

X finally winning. I feel a run.

[xukeith]

LBS packing it in daring X to shoot from outside.

[paulxu]

Marquette did their part.

[Xville]

It is probably hard to concentrate in front of the dozens of people that are there. So glad we played in this crappy tournament.

[xsteve1]

Teams just light us up from 3.

[GoMuskies]

It is probably hard to concentrate in front of the dozens of people that are there. So glad we played in this crappy tournament.

If we can't win this tournament, what the hell kind of tournament CAN we win? Even the good tournaments have lousy crowds for most of the games (I don't know if I've ever seen that gym at Disney more than about a third full).

[xudash]

It is probably hard to concentrate in front of the dozens of people that are there. So glad we played in this crappy tournament.

Given that Marquette is about to beat Tennessee and that DePaul took down Stanford, I think it is incumbent upon Xavier to find itself and win this thing.

It's that culture of grit and winning that we knew so well. Let's get that back and make this a great year.

[xukeith]

Do the 12 people include team and coaches? That is why we are short

[xsteve1]

Marquette did their part.

Marquette has improved immensely in the last week.

[GoMuskies]

We hit 13 threes against the Beach in the first meeting.

[xukeith]

Get Sumner OUT of there!

[xsteve1]

Call a timeout.

[BMoreX]

I have about the same feeling I had yesterday.

[xsteve1]

After watching this team at home I thought X was really good.

[xukeith]

8-0 run by LBS.
Up 6. MUst score now!

[xsteve1]

Beach just wants this more.

[GoMuskies]

I have about the same feeling I had yesterday.

Sorta like USC last year? The Beach probably isn't quite that bad, thankfully.

[xukeith]

After watching this team at home I thought X was really good.
Wait until Big East play!

[Xville]

If we can't win this tournament, what the hell kind of tournament CAN we win? Even the good tournaments have lousy crowds for most of the games (I don't know if I've ever seen that gym at Disney more than about a third full).

In my opinion it is stupid to play in this tournament...only bad things can happen. Even if we had won it, it would have done little for us. I just don't see a point in playing in a tournament full of mid major teams none of them being ranked

[GoMuskies]

In my opinion it is stupid to play in this tournament...only bad things can happen. Even if we had won it, it would have done nothing for us. I just don't see a point in playing in a tournament full of mid major teams none of them being ranked

Get three decent wins away from home. Would have been nice from an RPI perspective and would have looked good at selection time when things like road/neutral schedule come up.

[xukeith]

Finally Myles! 3!

[xukeith]

Bluiett blew it with a great opportunity layup. X down again.

[Xavgrad08]

Stainbrook looks absolutely gassed. Hopefully, he has enough in the tank for the home stretch.

[xukeith]

Caffey looks awesome.

[xsteve1]

Put Remy in for Dee.

[Xville]

I know it is probably irrational but I despise dee davis' game

[xukeith]

Offensive rebound and LBS score. X misses desperate 3. Game over.

[BMoreX]

Death, taxes, and us sucking in holiday tournaments

[xsteve1]

This baby's over.

[GoMuskies]

It's not actually over yet, right? Just for all intents and purposes?

[GoMuskies]

Death, taxes, and us sucking in holiday tournaments

And this was actually an improvement over last year.

[mistabeecee41]

Embarassing. Youthful or not, you just can't come out and lay this kind of turd against mediocre competition.

[Xville]

This team is going to be frustrating all year...way too young to be consistent. We are going to lose a games we have no business losing, and vice versa.

[xsteve1]

X embarrassing the league right now.

[vee4xu]

I've just hit the reset button on my expectations for this team this year.

[X-Fan]

Ugh, I know we are young, and playing 3 games in 4 days, but this is weak. LBS getting whatever they want on offense. X clanking 3s, missing bunnies, with no offensive flow. I don't get why Abel doesn't get more play. Need some drive and dish to get some open looks. Very disappointed.

[spursy]

Piss poor coaching by mack all game. Embarrassing.

[xsteve1]

Now 7-11 in holiday tournaments under Mack. Ouch.

[Xville]

This team is going to be another average xavier team. I'm really sick of seeing dee davis play so much.

[GoMuskies]

Rebounding margin was X +13 at the half. Now only X +4.

[X Factor]

Given up 46 points in the second half.....what the fu** has happened to tough Xavier defense????????

[Xavgrad08]

LBSU had a big 9-0 run right before the half. I though X should have called a timeout to regroup a little. I think Mack wanted to see how his guys would respond and it looks like they failed the test. Defense needs to improve drastically. Up next is a solid Alabama team.

[XU3232]

Unreal... Once again we are a completely different team away from Cintas. 4th place in this tournament is pathetic.

[gladdenguy]

Pathetic. No wonder tickets are half priced til midnight. May want to extend that.

[xukeith]

Reality check! X has Potential but an injured and deficient senior pg plus only one consistent option on offense makes it easy for opponents to play X.
X will do well at home, not good away. Scary looking season.

[BMoreX]

This team misses a ton of easy buckets.

[X Factor]

Up next is a solid Alabama team.

We'll probably beat Alabama at home, but it will be a mirage, cause once this team gets away from the Cintas, they will look completely horrible again.

[xsteve1]

No reason for me to get upset any longer. X will be awesome at home and terrible on the road.

[mistabeecee41]

Stains flop instead of playing straight up when we were down 2 was the end of it.

[xsteve1]

We'll probably beat Alabama at home, but it will be a mirage, cause once this team gets away from the Cintas, they will look completely horrible again.

I'm betting X smokes Bama. Will even put money on X.

[DC Muskie]

Can we just stop playing over Thanksgiving? All of this food and watching us suck is not a good combination.

[GoMuskies]

Can we just stop playing over Thanksgiving? All of this food and watching us suck is not a good combination.

Better idea. Create our own holiday "classic" and invite the three worst teams we can find to Cintas.

[OTRMUSKIE]

Why would anybody think X was going to win this game? They never play well in these tournaments. They will be fine as soon as they fire Mack and bench Dee and play better defense. Things are looking bright boys!,,

[spursy]

I just don't understand the minute distribution. Randolph comes on and looks lights out? Bench him. Abell has been consistently impressive? Start him but nothing more, let's just give all his minutes to the wild freshman macura. Livid at mack right now.

[xukeith]

Agree. Home cooking!

[GuyFawkes38]

Until Bluiett plays a little more consistent, we will be facing a lot of backcourts better than us. Caffey torched us.

[sirthought]

Live and die by the three.
XU can't make 'em or defend 'em.

It's time to put the kibosh on Farr shooting threes. He needs to play a different role for this team to succeed. I wonder if our younger guys just ran out of steam with these back to back games.

I think the way the game was called helped LBSU considerably under the basket, but we still have to make better decisions that lead to made shots.
Too many shots taken with no help in place.
Too much shooting when there is no one there to rebound.
Too much driving with no one to pass out to if the lane is closed.

[GoMuskies]

It's time to put the kibosh on Farr shooting threes. He needs to play a different role for this team to succeed. I wonder if our younger guys just ran out of steam with these back to back games.


I think he'd make a fabulous cheerleader.

[DC Muskie]

Better idea. Create our own holiday "classic" and invite the three worst teams we can find to Cintas.

I like it. Like I enjoy another helping of turkey and stuffing. I can't get enough of it!

[X Factor]

Caffey averaged 22 points against X in the 2 games played. Who was guarding him????

[GoMuskies]

I couldn't see the game, so can someone tell me how the end played out? The Beach missed 2 FTs with 4 seconds left, and then what? Did we not even get a shot off?

[casualfan]

I couldn't see the game, so can someone tell me how the end played out? The Beach missed 2 FTs with 4 seconds left, and then what? Did we not even get a shot off?

Myles shot a running 40 footer.

[Muskeagle]

M. Davis put one off the backboard...just to the right of the rim from just beyond midcourt.

[GoMuskies]

Myles shot a running 40 footer.

Thanks. The ESPN.com play by play did not show that last shot.

[DC Muskie]

We are now 2-9 since the start of last season in tournament settings.

We need to turn that around.

[sirthought]

For as badly as I think they played, they really had their chances. They made all but 1 free throws. Too bad they didn't get to the line more.

They won is most statistical areas, except the terrible 3 point shooting.

[Caveat]

It is going to be a really long season unless someone starts stepping out to guard the outside shot.

[XU 87]

Rebounding margin was X +13 at the half. Now only X +4.

That says a lot.

[coasterville95]

I was at a funeral and had the game DVRed. Sounds like this is a delete unwatched situation.

Pathetic.

[Strange Brew]

I think he'd make a fabulous cheerleader.

He rebounded pretty well. Who do YOU think should get his minutes.

[mohr5150]

We just lost to a team we beat by 23 less than two weeks ago. TWENTY-THREE!!!

[paulxu]

I think they all read that CBS report that said we were a top 25 team...and decided to believe it, and not play hard.

[D-West & PO-Z]

How many minutes did Remy get today? The espn box score doesnt have it. Thought there were times again today he should have been in instead of JP.

[GoMuskies]

He rebounded pretty well. Who do YOU think should get his minutes.

I don't know. Someone better that Mack should have recruited, maybe? Farr had 1 rebound in the second half, by the way, after 10 in the first half.

I really am glad we have Farr. I just wish we were talented enough that we didn't have to start him.

[bleedXblue]

How many minutes did Remy get today? The espn box score doesnt have it. Thought there were times again today he should have been in instead of JP.

Playing Remy more might be ok for defense, but he really has a very limited offensive game.

[spursy]

Playing Remy more might be ok for defense, but he really has a very limited offensive game.
No more limited than macura. Probably far less limited than freshman macura anyway despite how much macura wants to try to prove otherwise.

[xubball1993]

I hate these turkey day tournaments. X has been is a turkey the past several years.

[bleedXblue]

After the last two games, I think reality has set in a bit.

1. Mack and staff have some serious issues coaching in tournament settings. Don't know why. Maybe it's the short prep time?
2. We are seriously lacking a poised upperclassmen guard who can create his own shot and score.
3. Our frosh are going to play like frosh at times. Blueitt and Macura were ice cold today.
4. The depth is great, but I think even Mack is confused at times with who to go with. Sumner and Macura are defensive liabilities right now. In a tight game, its hard to go with them. I do like how JP mixes it up and rebounds fairly well.

Long season. I'm sticking with 20 wins. I do think they'll get better as the year goes on.

[Xavier]

I don't know. Someone better that Mack should have recruited, maybe? Farr had 1 rebound in the second half, by the way, after 10 in the first half.

I really am glad we have Farr. I just wish we were talented enough that we didn't have to start him.

Weren't you the one who pointed out the rebound margin in the first and second half? Farr being the reason for the rebound margin in the first half and now you don't like him playing much?

Not sure I agree with sitting Stainbrook and going to a press defense when Mack did it. Yet another disappointing thanksgiving tournament. Up hill battle from here.

[bleedXblue]

No more limited than macura. Probably far less limited than freshman macura anyway despite how much macura wants to try to prove otherwise.

Their offensive games are very different. JP is only 7 games into his college career. He's gonna be a good shooter if we can get him the ball in the right spots.

[XfansinKy]

Our bigs were considered talented when recruited but just haven't developed.I'm worried about our Xavier program moving forward. I've never in my adult life felt this way about X basketball. Thankfully last year and the year before is over and plenty of this year left to turn around.

[spursy]

Their offensive games are very different. JP is only 7 games into his college career. He's gonna be a good shooter if we can get him the ball in the right spots.
I completely agree with this. But I thought Abell deserved more minutes today and I feel that macura got the minutes Abell deserved.

[bleedXblue]

I was hoping Jalen was going to be better defensively. You hear about how athletic he is. He should be a really good shot blocker at 6'9 with his wingspan.

[bleedXblue]

I completely agree with this. But I thought Abell deserved more minutes today and I feel that macura got the minutes Abell deserved.

We were down almost the entire second half. I think Mack was trying to get someone going from the outside. It didn't pan out.

[GoMuskies]

Weren't you the one who pointed out the rebound margin in the first and second half? Farr being the reason for the rebound margin in the first half and now you don't like him playing much?


I didn't get to see the game. Did Farr not play in the second half when we got outrebounded by 10?

[GoMuskies]

Our bigs were considered talented when recruited but just haven't developed.I'm worried about our Xavier program moving forward.

We have more young talent in the program than ever. I'm worried about his season, but I'm not worried about the program a bit.

[xsteve1]

I was hoping Jalen was going to be better defensively. You hear about how athletic he is. He should be a really good shot blocker at 6'9 with his wingspan.

Jalen's problem isn't a physical one.

[vee4xu]

We just lost to a team we beat by 23 less than two weeks ago. TWENTY-THREE!!!

And do I correctly recall that with about 8 minutes to go in that game, Xavier was up 82-31? Elite teams do not lose back to back games to UTEP and LBSU, period, end of story. X is a good team, but sadly nowhere close to elite.

[bleedXblue]

Jalen's problem isn't a physical one.

I'm guessing you're referring to his motor? At times he simply disappears.

[spursy]

We were down almost the entire second half. I think Mack was trying to get someone going from the outside. It didn't pan out.
Agree but Abell can hit the 3...he is just more lethal with the fake and slash. I know that macura can hit the 3 but at this point Abell is more proven, and this is not a game we should have lost and will haunt us come the march committee. We should have been going all out for the W rather than trying to season freshmen (which is the only explanation I can come up with for Abell and Randolph not getting more minutes).

[GoMuskies]

And do I correctly recall that with about 8 minutes to go in that game, Xavier was up 82-31?

That didn't sound right, so I looked it up. The 23 point margin was actually Xavier's largest lead of the game in the first meeting.

You may be thinking of the 86-35 lead we had on NAU.

[coasterville95]

We have no room to complain about less than stellar holiday tournament fields until we can actually win one. Really we can't make fun of these until we are a perennial winner of them. Heck, at least get to the final game would be nice.

As to why we play, well there is the 3-1 or 4-1 game loophole. And then I think ESPN runs all of these. Might be a deal where if you start getting picky they cut you off. ESPN events anyway.

Why do we go through this every year. Beat up on a pastry cart at home, think we are national title material, go on our first road outing. (Usually one of these tourneys), get out tails kicked in and go through the same anguish.

And here I thought Brazil helped. We looked so good. What really sucks is one of these cream puffs turned into a sour cream puff and beat us.

[vee4xu]

That didn't sound right, so I looked it up. The 23 point margin was actually Xavier's largest lead of the game in the first meeting.

You may be thinking of the 86-35 lead we had on NAU.

I was. Thanks, Go.

[D-West & PO-Z]

Playing Remy more might be ok for defense, but he really has a very limited offensive game.

I disagree.

[D-West & PO-Z]

No more limited than macura. Probably far less limited than freshman macura anyway despite how much macura wants to try to prove otherwise.

This

[bleedXblue]

I disagree.

Please explain. He didn't score much at IU and he's not scoring now? I see him as a below average 3-pt shooter. Outside of 3's, he occasionally will slash to the basket. No mid range jumper that I've seen.

I like Remy, but he's not shown much variety offensively.

[vee4xu]

You know, it is disheartening to me that X loses games to teams like UTEP and LBSU. These are the losses that cause the tight sphincter syndrome on Selection Sunday every year. If X is going to go with a lesser OOC and tourney schedule because they feel like the BE is a good metric for RPI points, then they have to win these games. In short, they need to dominate these kinds of schools to be taken seriously in March.

[Xville]

You know, it is disheartening to me that X loses games to teams like UTEP and LBSU. These are the losses that cause the tight sphincter syndrome on Selection Sunday every year. If X is going to go with a lesser OOC and tourney schedule because they feel like the BE is a good metric for RPI points, then they have to win these games. In short, they need to dominate these kinds of schools to be taken seriously in March.

Agreed. However, this is why playing in these tournaments are stupid. Playing mid majors thousands of miles away over thanksgiving is stupid.....we can play all these mid major teams without the benefit of a crappy tournament in a crappy atmosphere. I'd feel the same way if we won the tournament ..to me the cons far outweigh the pros playing in a tournament like this.

[LA Muskie]

No more limited than macura. Probably far less limited than freshman macura anyway despite how much macura wants to try to prove otherwise.
I don't know the answer, but playing devil's advocate another way to look at it is that we may well have gone 0-3 without Macura. His scoring against USD was HUGE.

[paulxu]

Most of the big name teams in big tourneys are locked in far in advance.
I believe we were slated for Orlando this year, which included Kansas and Michigan State.
So, maybe we had to back up and take a lesser tournament (which is no excuse for the crappy showing today) as a result of moving to the BE.

We'll be back in Orlando next year with Iowa, ND, Wichita State and some others (including Dayton).

[LA Muskie]

Most of the big name teams in big tourneys are locked in far in advance.
I believe we were slated for Orlando this year, which included Kansas and Michigan State.
So, maybe we had to back up and take a lesser tournament (which is no excuse for the crappy showing today) as a result of moving to the BE.

We'll be back in Orlando next year with Iowa, ND, Wichita State and some others (including Dayton).
This has been covered. We didn't have to back out of Orlando. We chose to -- and used the BE as an excuse (an exemption has been granted to every school who has sought one because of realignment). Reality is the staff knew there would be growing pains and didn't want to play that level of competition at this stage of the season. Which is fine. As long as you beat the level of competition we played...

[GoMuskies]

Yeah, would have been better to get our asses handed to us in Orlando.

[LA Muskie]

The tournaments aren't the problem. This is basketball. Not playing basketball is not the solution to becoming good at basketball. These were not great teams and this was not an intimidating "road" environment. Don't blame the context. We sucked for 2 games, and frankly played only marginally better in the one we won.

Our defense is bad. We give up far too many open looks, and we can't get stops when we want to.

Our rebounding is inconsistent, due in large part to the inconsistency of our bigs (mostly Farr and Reynolds -- although Stainbrook isn't immune to taking the occasional possession off as well).

Our offense is better, but it took a step backwards this week. Heading into the tourney, we were sharing the ball and making our shots. The same mostly held true on Thursday, as Stainbrook played the inside-out game very well. Friday we played way too much one-on-one, and missed way too many open men. Bluiett and Davis, in particular, failed to make the extra pass several times.

[LA Muskie]

Yeah, would have been better to get our asses handed to us in Orlando.
That's sort of where I come out on it. At least you have the upside of a big win or two (like Butler).

[TUclutch]

Some of you need to back off the ledge. Or jump off the wagon. If you didn't think there would be bumps this season, you were lying to yourself. This team is young. Outside Stain and Dee, they are playing more minutes than they have before. Dee is playing more than he should anyway. Let them do a little growing and getting used to the college game. This year isn't going to be a deep tourney run, but it can set the foundation for being a top 25 program for years to come. It will give the young guys valuable experience while having more and more good players coming in the next few years.

[RoseyMuskie]

Hate to say it, but I think there's a large enough sample size to ask this question:

Is the staff underprepared in short turnarounds in these tournaments, indicating average coaching, or is the coaching only solid when given enough time, because it can scheme with lesser athletes?

I don't pretend to know the answer, but I do think either could apply.

[bleedXblue]

Hate to say it, but I think there's a large enough sample size to ask this question:

Is the staff underprepared in short turnarounds in these tournaments, indicating average coaching, or is the coaching only solid when given enough time, because it can scheme with lesser athletes?

I don't pretend to know the answer, but I do think either could apply.

Yes, I posted pretty much the same thing earlier. Something is there.

[vee4xu]

Some of you need to back off the ledge. Or jump off the wagon. If you didn't think there would be bumps this season, you were lying to yourself. This team is young. Outside Stain and Dee, they are playing more minutes than they have before. Dee is playing more than he should anyway. Let them do a little growing and getting used to the college game. This year isn't going to be a deep tourney run, but it can set the foundation for being a top 25 program for years to come. It will give the young guys valuable experience while having more and more good players coming in the next few years.

I am not on any ledge or jumping off any bandwagon. This team has highly rated freshman, a fifth year post player and a senior point guard. With all due respect to your post, XU as a member of the Big East has no business losing back to back games to UTEP and LBSU. It doesn't matter if they played in Anaheim or on the moon. They should have won both games. They lead handily in both and then lost focus and ultimately lost both games. Sorry, I am not buying the "were young" argument this time.

[bleedXblue]

Some of you need to back off the ledge. Or jump off the wagon. If you didn't think there would be bumps this season, you were lying to yourself. This team is young. Outside Stain and Dee, they are playing more minutes than they have before. Dee is playing more than he should anyway. Let them do a little growing and getting used to the college game. This year isn't going to be a deep tourney run, but it can set the foundation for being a top 25 program for years to come. It will give the young guys valuable experience while having more and more good players coming in the next few years.

Agree somewhat. But what about guys like Reynolds (3rd year in the program) and Abell (Junior who practiced with the team last year)? There's enough experience there to challenge how "young" we are. We start 1 frosh. The first guys off the bench are Myles and Reynolds. So 6 of our top 7 guys have solid experience. Macura and Sumner....yes, very green. But, we should be able to lean on our top guys to pull us through games like today. Time for some tough love from Mack....IMHO.

[RoseyMuskie]

Yes, I posted pretty much the same thing earlier. Something is there.

My other thought is that Mack plays his bench more than other teams in these tournament to figure out what he has. I really have no way of proving or disproving this notion, but as you said, something is there.

[xukeith]

read Shannon's article on the game. Mack says, "We will try and be better."
As Yoda says, there is no "try" Mr. Miyagi says, "Yes or No! Not maybe!"

[TUclutch]

Agree somewhat. But what about guys like Reynolds (3rd year in the program) and Abell (Junior who practiced with the team last year)? There's enough experience there to challenge how "young" we are. We start 1 frosh. The first guys off the bench are Myles and Reynolds. So 6 of our top 7 guys have solid experience. Macura and Sumner....yes, very green. But, we should be able to lean on our top guys to pull us through games like today. Time for some tough love from Mack....IMHO.

Well for one, its not Reynolds 3rd year in the program. He and Myles had to sit out, pay their own way, and couldn't practice their first year at Xavier. If you think Reynolds and Myles have solid experience, I don't have much to say to you. Theyre both in the beginning of their second year in the program. Theyre young guys. Tough love is one thing, but jumping on the team and trashin on them like some are in here is absurd.

[TUclutch]

I am not on any ledge or jumping off any bandwagon. This team has highly rated freshman, a fifth year post player and a senior point guard. With all due respect to your post, XU as a member of the Big East has no business losing back to back games to UTEP and LBSU. It doesn't matter if they played in Anaheim or on the moon. They should have won both games. They lead handily in both and then lost focus and ultimately lost both games. Sorry, I am not buying the "were young" argument this time.

Highly rated freshman need time to adjust. Stain is really the only guy with experience that the team can afford to "lean on". Dee is a very average at best player and had Xavier been in the big east earlier, Dee never would have been recruited by X. He is a very solid PG by A10 standards, but he is simply playing as the best option at PG right now. Not because he is actually a good big east caliber PG. This team is young whether you "buy it" or not. They are. Bumps in the road are frustrating. I struggled to watch the game at points. Its going to happen and this is valuable learning experience for these guys to get better and be better by the time league play starts

[vee4xu]

Hey, if using the young team reason makes you feel better, then that's totally cool. You're right, I'm not buying it. Michigan State, Ohio State, Kansas, et al have young players too, but they win games they should win. Until Xavier does that regularly, while extolling the "we are in the Big East" mantra, then they can't be mentioned in the same breath as those other teams I listed. That, friend is just a fact. For me, I want to be added to that list and playing like X did against UTEP and LBSU ain't gonna get X there.

[bleedXblue]

Well for one, its not Reynolds 3rd year in the program. He and Myles had to sit out, pay their own way, and couldn't practice their first year at Xavier. If you think Reynolds and Myles have solid experience, I don't have much to say to you. Theyre both in the beginning of their second year in the program. Theyre young guys. Tough love is one thing, but jumping on the team and trashin on them like some are in here is absurd.

I don't see much "trashing" going on. Questions, concerns....yes and most valid IMHO.

I thought Reynolds practiced his frosh year...if he didn't that still doesn't change my perspective. A full year of D1 ball is solid experience IMHO.

The freshman post player from LBSU didn't play like it was the 5-6th game of his career.

[XfansinKy]

I don't hate on Mack and I'm not now but this is bad right now

[XU 87]

X starts a senior, junior, freshman, junior and senior. Yes, there are some other freshman playing, but most teams are playing freshmen, although X has more than most teams. X simply needs to play better.

One other thing, Macura and Sumner are the only two other freshman getting consistent PT; both are playing less than 10 minutes per game.

I can live with one loss, but not two. And I don't think they played that great against San Diego either.

[GuyFawkes38]

X starts a senior, junior, freshman, junior and senior. Yes, there are some other freshman playing, but most teams are playing freshmen, although X has more than most teams. X simply needs to play better.

Definitely see your point. But that being said, X is very dependent on the freshman, Bluiett, for offense. He just didn't have it today (first game against LBSU, he scored 20 points. Today he scored 9 points).

Bluiett might be the "X" factor for the year. Just like with Semaj, there might be some growing pains. But he'll be fine.

We played a solid, experienced LBSU squad, for the second time, basically on the road. These types of losses just happen.

[vee4xu]

Actually, today's game didn't come down to Bluiett and the offense per se, it came down to defense. Xavier was 2-11 shooting 3's and LBSU was 10-23. That's 11% versus 43%. Xavier has been struggling on defense all year, especially transition defense. Tonight, it was guarding the perimeter.

[XU 87]

Definitely see your point. But that being said, X is very dependent on the freshman, Bluiett, for offense. He just didn't have it today (first game against LBSU, he scored 20 points. Today he scored 9 points).

Bluiett might be the "X" factor for the year.

X didn't shoot well from the three. That can happen.

LBSU shot around 45 percent from the three. That can't happen. I thought LBSU also had a bunch of open threes in the first half, but just missed.

[Xavier_Musketeers]

We need to fix our defense. Most games we will score a lot, but we also give up a lot of points. If we can fix our defense, then I think this team will be alright. We have the offensive power to make it in to the ncaa tournament, but we won't be going far if we can't play defense.

[GuyFawkes38]

Actually, today's game didn't come down to Bluiett and the offense per se, it came down to defense. Xavier was 2-11 shooting 3's and LBSU was 10-23. That's 11% versus 43%. Xavier has been struggling on defense all year, especially transition defense. Tonight, it was guarding the perimeter.

Not to get too dorky, but tonight we gave up 1.00 point per possession, which is good. Our previous victory over LBSU, we gave up 1.10 points per possession. Tonight we played solid D. We just couldn't hit our shots.

[vee4xu]

We need to fix our defense. Most games we will score a lot, but we also give up a lot of points. If we can fix our defense, then I think this team will be alright. We have the offensive power to make it in to the ncaa tournament, but we won't be going far if we can't play defense.

Coach Mack is a Skip Prosser disciple. We used to say the same thing about Skip's teams.

[vee4xu]

That's a nice stat guy, but Coach Mack has been saying that this team creates offense from its defense. They are not going to be fully successful by going into the half court offense. When they kicked the snot out of those teams early in the Cintas Center, they were doing much of it off of turnovers and steals. That didn't happen in Anaheim. Oh, and LBSU made one less three than X attempted today. Another sort of dorky, but telling stat.

[kyxu]

We need to fix our defense. Most games we will score a lot, but we also give up a lot of points. If we can fix our defense, then I think this team will be alright. We have the offensive power to make it in to the ncaa tournament, but we won't be going far if we can't play defense.

You make it sound so easy.

This team had room for improvement on the defensive end last year, and for whatever reason (whether personnel or coaching), it was never completely resolved. Xavier was giving up wide open 3's and dribble-drive penetration from our struggles in the Bahamas last year to our unceremonious exit in the NCAA Tournament against NC State.

I'm not completely confident we are all of the sudden going to see a defensive transformation this season to the extent that this team can make a real run in March. We are able to mask the issue when we firebomb teams out of the Cintas. Away from home? We get exposed.

[XU 87]

Coach Mack is a Skip Prosser disciple. We used to say the same thing about Skip's teams.

Don't forget- he coached for five years under Miller and runs Miller's defense.

[vee4xu]

Don't forget- he coached for five years under Miller and runs Miller's defense.

Very fair point.

[Bmuskie]

Coach Mack is a Skip Prosser disciple. We used to say the same thing about Skip's teams.

That is incredibly true!! And many of the same criticisms we have of coach Mack we had of coach Prosser. I consistently see the same ineptitude on offense game after game and the coach blaming it game after game on the lack of defense. While I want better defense the offense should NEVER tie into the defense. Both should always be independent and both should be at a high level at all times. If your defense is failing you should be able to counter with better offense and more offensive sets and weapons to pull out. Côach Mack's offense like Prossers before him is way too predictable and way too simplistic. As the year goes on teams figure out the offense real quick and easily know how to shut it down. That is one if the reasons why like Prosser's teams Mack's tend not to get better as the year goes on.

[XU 87]

You make it sound so easy.

This team had room for improvement on the defensive end last year, and for whatever reason (whether personnel or coaching), it was never completely resolved. Xavier was giving up wide open 3's and dribble-drive penetration from our struggles in the Bahamas last year to our unceremonious exit in the NCAA Tournament against NC State.

I'm not completely confident we are all of the sudden going to see a defensive transformation this season to the extent that this team can make a real run in March. We are able to mask the issue when we firebomb teams out of the Cintas. Away from home? We get exposed.

Interesting points you make.

[waggy]

This is Millers defense in name only.

[xsteve1]

Not to get too dorky, but tonight we gave up 1.00 point per possession, which is good. Our previous victory over LBSU, we gave up 1.10 points per possession. Tonight we played solid D. We just couldn't hit our shots.

X did play pretty solid defense in the first half up until the 9-0 run at the end of it. LBSU kind of slept walked for the first 17 minutes. The second half defense was atrocious.
Per Snow none of the freshman that were brought in were good defensively but were good offensive players. I wouldn't expect X to get much better on the defensive end as the season goes on. Stainbrook is too slow and not athletic enough to play the packline. Need to make some adjustments or it's going to be a long year especially away from home.

[XU 87]

That is incredibly true!! And many of the same criticisms we have of coach Mack we had of coach Prosser. I consistently see the same ineptitude on offense game after game and the coach blaming it game after game on the lack of defense. While I want better defense the offense should NEVER tie into the defense. Both should always be independent and both should be at a high level at all times. If your defense is failing you should be able to counter with better offense and more offensive sets and weapons to pull out. Côach Mack's offense like Prossers before him is way too predictable and way too simplistic. As the year goes on teams figure out the offense real quick and easily know how to shut it down. That is one if the reasons why like Prosser's teams Mack's tend not to get better as the year goes on.

Skip's teams had no clue about running a half court offense. Mack's teams can run a half court offense.

Skip one won Ncaa game in 7 years. Mack doubled that his first year,

And offense can be dependent on defense. You can't fast break when the other team scores. And you need easy points off of turnovers.

[kyxu]

The tournaments aren't the problem. This is basketball. Not playing basketball is not the solution to becoming good at basketball. These were not great teams and this was not an intimidating "road" environment. Don't blame the context. We sucked for 2 games, and frankly played only marginally better in the one we won.

Our defense is bad. We give up far too many open looks, and we can't get stops when we want to.

Our rebounding is inconsistent, due in large part to the inconsistency of our bigs (mostly Farr and Reynolds -- although Stainbrook isn't immune to taking the occasional possession off as well).

Our offense is better, but it took a step backwards this week. Heading into the tourney, we were sharing the ball and making our shots. The same mostly held true on Thursday, as Stainbrook played the inside-out game very well. Friday we played way too much one-on-one, and missed way too many open men. Bluiett and Davis, in particular, failed to make the extra pass several times.

This. This x 1000. Particularly the bolded part.

We moan about the "curse" of these Thanksgiving tournaments, but the tournaments are not the problem. Xavier has just been playing really shitty basketball over the last few years during this time of the year. We were able to rebound in Mack's first season when we had a lousy Thanksgiving, but for the most part, us falling on our face in these has been symptomatic of Xavier's play, not the tournament.

The solution, if you want Xavier to get better, is not to stop playing in these. It's to stop sucking.

[D-West & PO-Z]

This. This x 1000. Particularly the bolded part.

We moan about the "curse" of these Thanksgiving tournaments, but the tournaments are not the problem. Xavier has just been playing really shitty basketball over the last few years during this time of the year. We were able to rebound in Mack's first season when we had a lousy Thanksgiving, but for the most part, us falling on our face in these has been symptomatic of Xavier's play, not the tournament.

The solution, if you want Xavier to get better, is not to stop playing in these. It's to stop sucking.

Ha, agree with you and LA. Love LA's quote about not playing basketball is not a way to get better at basketball.

Very frustrating game to watch today. That after watching the Giants blow a 21 point lead to the Jaguars. Terrible sports day for me.

[kyxu]

X did play pretty solid defense in the first half up until the 9-0 run at the end of it.

Respectfully disagree. LBSU got a lot of open looks during that rather tepid first 15 minutes or so. They just weren't hitting. Once we went up 10, the shots they bricked for most of the first half began to fall. I was honestly stunned in the first half how many wide open looks LBSU was missing.


This is Millers defense in name only.

I'm frightened to say that this is becoming more and more apparent.

[D-West & PO-Z]

Respectfully disagree. LBSU got a lot of open looks during that rather tepid first 15 minutes or so. They just weren't hitting. Once we went up 10, the shots they bricked for most of the first half began to fall. I was honestly stunned in the first half how many wide open looks LBSU was missing.



I'm frightened to say that this is becoming more and more apparent.

Yeah nothing about the defense we are seeing is protecting the paint from dribble penetration. If it was just bad 3 point defense I would understand but its both penetration and bad 3 point defense.

[XU 87]

It seemed to me our guys in the second just kept running straight into screens. It also seemed to me our guys couldn't stay in front of the guy they were guarding. They seemed a step behind on dribble penetration. As a result, The big man then helps, the defense collapses, and the ball gets kicked out to the open three.

[kyxu]

It seemed to me our guys in the second just kept running straight into screens. It also seemed to me our guys couldn't stay in front of the guy they were guarding. They seemed a step behind on dribble penetration. As a result, The big man then helps, the defense collapses, and the ball gets kicked out to the open three.

That's pretty much spot-on. Guards are getting beat off the dribble, which is exactly what the packline is designed to stop. Our rebounding numbers plummeted in the second half because when a big man came over to help, as you pointed out, it left us either small or out of position down low to get a rebound.

[XU2011]

I just don't understand the minute distribution. Randolph comes on and looks lights out? Bench him. Abell has been consistently impressive? Start him but nothing more, let's just give all his minutes to the wild freshman macura. Livid at mack right now.

Abell needs to play more. Plus, Reynolds needs to play more, Farr getting 30 minutes? Farr had 8 points and 11 boards in 30 minutes, Reynolds had 8 points and 5 boards in 12. Reynolds should be an absolute animal this year, unfortunately we don't have the staff to develop him. What's that Emerson quote Skip used to say about our chief desire in life.... sorry to see it not playing out here with Reynolds b/c Mack and Pegues aren't getting it done.

Mack is in over his head. He is a phenomenal recruiter... crappy developer, and even worse in-game coach.

Generally speaking, Mack's teams start games so poorly and lethargically in the first half it takes a hero's effort to even get back in the game the 2nd half, and simply cannot play a decent game away from Cintas. It's mind boggling how different Mack's teams look at Cintas and away from Cintas. If they can't win in an empty gym, good luck winning in a true road atmosphere.

It's just disappointing we don't see the hard-nosed, chip-on-the-shoulder, mentally tough teams from Mack we were used to seeing from Miller's squads.

[XU2011]

It's time to put the kibosh on Farr shooting threes. He needs to play a different role for this team to succeed. I wonder if our younger guys just ran out of steam with these back to back games.

.

Yep, other than Remy, Farr is worst on the team in 3 point percentage (tied with Dee).

Interestingly, Reynolds is averaging slightly ahead of Farr in minutes per game. Why this tourney he played 26, 14 and 30 I don't understand. We also went 1-2.

I think there are too many guys in the rotation.. Mack gets confued and lost. Similar to what someone said about Randolph today- getting in for 3 mins, playing well, and then benched rest of game.

[kyxu]

Interestingly, Reynolds is averaging slightly ahead of Farr in minutes per game. Why this tourney he played 26, 14 and 30 I don't understand. We also went 1-2.

Jalen can't play more than 2 consecutive minutes without picking up a foul. That's why his minutes are so severely limited.

[XU2011]

I think they all read that CBS report that said we were a top 25 team...and decided to believe it, and not play hard.

I'd agree. Not sure if arrogance and entitlement are the right words, but that's what is coming to mind.

The last 3 Mack teams.... no post season; lose in the play in game; now this....

If this team can't function away from the friendly confines of Cintas, we might be looking at no post season; lose in play in game; no post season.

[XU2011]

Jalen can't play more than 2 consecutive minutes without picking up a foul. That's why his minutes are so severely limited.

Haha, I understand that. That's why I was surprised Reynolds is trending ahead of Farr a little bit.

There was no need for Farr to have 30 mins today was what I was trying to get at.

[XU2011]

This has been covered. We didn't have to back out of Orlando. We chose to -- and used the BE as an excuse (an exemption has been granted to every school who has sought one because of realignment). Reality is the staff knew there would be growing pains and didn't want to play that level of competition at this stage of the season. Which is fine. As long as you beat the level of competition we played...

I would have rather gone 0-3 and lost to Kansas, Tennessee and Georgia Tech than 1-2 with a win over San Diego.

That's why I never understood going to this tournament. It was a lose-lose. Even if we won, nothing gained from it for an NCAA bid because the teams were sooo crappy.

[LA Muskie]

I would have rather gone 0-3 and lost to Kansas, Tennessee and Georgia Tech then 1-2 with a win over San Diego.

That's why I never understood going to this tournament. It was a lose-lose. Even if we won, nothing gained from it for an NCAA bid because the teams were sooo crappy.
You're not going to hear an argument from me (see my earlier post on this topic). If you're going to downgrade competition, you need to beat the downgraded competition. Period. Since you can't guarantee that, I'd generally prefer the upside of a big win or two.

[profson]

This is not rocket science. Here is a clue from Kenpom:

XU offensive rating -- 14
XU defensive rating -- 115

The disturbing question is whether this is because of youth and unfamiliarity or is endemic to the personnel. I am fearing it is more the latter than I like. A posting of a recent quote from Mack that he is concerned about team speed "at certain positions" is instructive - I submit that covers the entire back court on the defensive side (including Reynolds because he is an athlete but has terrible feet and slow reactions defensively). Of those that play, all of these individuals are weak defensively: Farr, Reynolds, Bluiett, Macura, M. Davis, Sumner, and D. Davis and Stainbrook struggle against certain types.

This team is the reverse of recent teams (efficient offense, poor defense).

This is more important long term than not hitting the 3's today. We have shooters but you have good days and bad days with the 3 (the 2 games with the Beach providing the evidence).

[sgarcia]

If our team is not good and are slow defensively, then why is Remy (probably our best and quickest defender) not playing a lot of minutes? I'd also like to see our big men attempt to jump (especially Reynolds) and alter the opposing big man's shot from in close instead of them standing there and just putting their hands up. That defense doesn't work when the guy is 3 feet from the basket. Another holiday tournament in the books and another clunker by our Musketeers.

[bleedXblue]

This is not rocket science. Here is a clue from Kenpom:

XU offensive rating -- 14
XU defensive rating -- 115

The disturbing question is whether this is because of youth and unfamiliarity or is endemic to the personnel. I am fearing it is more the latter than I like. A posting of a recent quote from Mack that he is concerned about team speed "at certain positions" is instructive - I submit that covers the entire back court on the defensive side (including Reynolds because he is an athlete but has terrible feet and slow reactions defensively). Of those that play, all of these individuals are weak defensively: Farr, Reynolds, Bluiett, Macura, M. Davis, Sumner, and D. Davis and Stainbrook struggle against certain types.

This team is the reverse of recent teams (efficient offense, poor defense).

This is more important long term than not hitting the 3's today. We have shooters but you have good days and bad days with the 3 (the 2 games with the Beach providing the evidence).

I consider myself a fairly astute college basketball fan. I only really saw one change to the defense in the second half and that was the press we put on for one possession late in the game. I've always wondered why Mack's been very hesitant over the years to give a team a different look when they're scorching you. Monson's plan worked great. Don't let Stain make exterior passes to the 3 pt shooters. What was our play to stop Caffey and the other 3 pt shooter? Honestly, maybe we had one.......but I didn't see it. We weren't going to lose to LBSU from their interior players dominating the game.

[XU 87]

Abell needs to play more. Plus, Reynolds needs to play more, Farr getting 30 minutes? Farr had 8 points and 11 boards in 30 minutes, Reynolds had 8 points and 5 boards in 12. Reynolds should be an absolute animal this year, unfortunately we don't have the staff to develop him. What's that Emerson quote Skip used to say about our chief desire in life.... sorry to see it not playing out here with Reynolds b/c Mack and Pegues aren't getting it done.

Mack is in over his head. He is a phenomenal recruiter... crappy developer, and even worse in-game coach.

Generally speaking, Mack's teams start games so poorly and lethargically in the first half it takes a hero's effort to even get back in the game the 2nd half, and simply cannot play a decent game away from Cintas. It's mind boggling how different Mack's teams look at Cintas and away from Cintas. If they can't win in an empty gym, good luck winning in a true road atmosphere.

It's just disappointing we don't see the hard-nosed, chip-on-the-shoulder, mentally tough teams from Mack we were used to seeing from Miller's squads.

Good Grief, take it easy. Yes, the guy who took us to two Sweet 16's in his first three years is in over his head. The guy who had a top 20 recruiting class in over his head. Just because the team lost doesn't mean Mack just forgot how to coach or has now suddenly turned incompetent.

As for your "Generally Speaking" theory, X had the lead both times going into the second half.

[RealDeal]

Plus, Reynolds needs to play more, Farr getting 30 minutes?

Every time I saw Reynolds lose his man on defense and give up an easy basket on Friday I thought "Jalen needs to play more."

[Xville]

I don't think there is any reason for us to be jumping off the wagon. When there are 5 1st year players in the program and two guys in their second year that is a total of 7 guys in the 11 man rotation. Yes we have some experience with Dee and Stain, but Dee is one of the least talented players we have in the rotation and Stain can only do so much. It is extremely early in the season, and Mack is still trying to figure out rotations, and the new guys are trying to figure out their roles.

There are going to be lots of growing pains with this team....these guys are not UK recruits that can just come in and set the world on fire from day one so everyone just calm down.

Do I think being in this tournament was stupid? Absolutely. I didn't think there was any reason to be in this thing, and don't see the point in us being in one unless there are a few ranked teams ..it does nothing for us.

However, at this point it is what it is and it happened. Hopefully, this team grows and gets better by the end of the year. If that doesn't happen, then there should be some questions raised about the direction that this program is heading in but not until then

[casualfan]

I don't think there is any reason for us to be jumping off the wagon. When there are 5 1st year players in the program and two guys in their second year that is a total of 7 guys in the 11 man rotation. Yes we have some experience with Dee and Stain, but Dee is one of the least talented players we have in the rotation and Stain can only do so much. It is extremely early in the season, and Mack is still trying to figure out rotations, and the new guys are trying to figure out their roles.

There are going to be lots of growing pains with this team....these guys are not UK recruits that can just come in and set the world on fire from day one so everyone just calm down.

Do I think being in this tournament was stupid? Absolutely. I didn't think there was any reason to be in this thing, and don't see the point in us being in one unless there are a few ranked teams ..it does nothing for us.

However, at this point it is what it is and it happened. Hopefully, this team grows and gets better by the end of the year. If that doesn't happen, then there should be some questions raised about the direction that this program is heading in but not until then

Yes, you are correct. We have a bunch of first and second year players. What I keep wondering is why people routinely use that as an excuse while ignoring why we have so many first and second year guys.

Remy Abell is technically a second year player here. He's also a fourth year junior.
Myles Davis is technically a second year player here. He's also four years removed from high school.
Jalen Reynolds is technically a second year player here. He's also four years removed from high school.

You know who wouldn't be a brand new guy? Justin Martin. Know who else? Kamall Richards. Know who else? Griffin McKenzie. Know who else? Jay Canty. Know who else? Jordan Latham.

Maybe if Jalen had qualified one of the first two times we signed him he'd be further along. But he didn't.

Those are all guys who would be in their 4th or 5th years in the program. But they're not.

You can't lament the fact we have a bunch of newcomers and use that as a crutch when it is 100% our fault that is the case.

I realize most of the guys I listed were not very good and we were right to move on, but no one made us take them in the first place.

You swing and miss in recruiting and there are going to be consequences. IMHO that's what we're seeing right now.

Unless something changes drastically with regards to the annual roster turnover we're always going to have a bunch of new guys. That's just the reality.

I would also not be surprised to see another perimeter defection at some point this year or in the offseason. We are currently playing 7 perimeter players regularly (which is wayy too many IMHO) and that doesn't include Larry Austin.

[XU 87]

Canty, Latham and McKenzie would all have graduated if they had stayed. Martin started in their class but had to sit out his first year because of grades.

As for Martin, as I wrote in an earlier post, I think his playing time would have been significantly cut with Blueitt and Macura on the team. I don't think he would have handled that real well. I think both he and the team are both better off that he left.

[Muskied]

Yes, you are correct. We have a bunch of first and second year players. What I keep wondering is why people routinely use that as an excuse while ignoring why we have so many first and second year guys.

Remy Abell is technically a second year player here. He's also a fourth year junior.
Myles Davis is technically a second year player here. He's also four years removed from high school.
Jalen Reynolds is technically a second year player here. He's also four years removed from high school.

You know who wouldn't be a brand new guy? Justin Martin. Know who else? Kamall Richards. Know who else? Griffin McKenzie. Know who else? Jay Canty. Know who else? Jordan Latham.

Maybe if Jalen had qualified one of the first two times we signed him he'd be further along. But he didn't.

Those are all guys who would be in their 4th or 5th years in the program. But they're not.

You can't lament the fact we have a bunch of newcomers and use that as a crutch when it is 100% our fault that is the case.

I realize most of the guys I listed were not very good and we were right to move on, but no one made us take them in the first place.

You swing and miss in recruiting and there are going to be consequences. IMHO that's what we're seeing right now.

Unless something changes drastically with regards to the annual roster turnover we're always going to have a bunch of new guys. That's just the reality.

I would also not be surprised to see another perimeter defection at some point this year or in the offseason. We are currently playing 7 perimeter players regularly (which is wayy too many IMHO) and that doesn't include Larry Austin.

You know who else has annual roster turnover? Just about everyone. That's a weak excuse. How we handle the turnover and prepare who we have is another story, but those roster changes are no were near the reason for any lack of success compared to our competition.

[casualfan]

Canty, Latham and McKenzie would all have graduated if they had stayed. Martin started in their class but had to sit out his first year because of grades.

As for Martin, as I wrote in an earlier post, I think his playing time would have been significantly cut with Blueitt and Macura on the team. I don't think he would have handled that real well. I think both he and the team are both better off that he left.

Not if they redshirted.

As to whether or not the team is better off with or without Martin that isn't my point.

My point is that it's ridiculous to use all the "new" guys as an excuse for bumps in the road as if it was totally out of the staff's control.

The staff had plenty of opportunities to cultivate upperclassmen and it didn't happen.

If the idea is that we're struggling because we're young (something I don't necessarily buy into) my response is that it is no one's fault but our own.

[casualfan]

You know who else has annual roster turnover? Just about everyone. That's a weak excuse. How we handle the turnover and prepare who we have is another story, but those roster changes are no were near the reason for any lack of success compared to our competition.

Yeah I know. That was the premise of my post.

[ammtd34]

Casualfan, even if someone agrees with you, I don't get your point. Whoever's fault it was that players left in the past doesn't change the fact that this team is young.

[XU 87]

Not if they redshirted.


If the idea is that we're struggling because we're young (something I don't necessarily buy into) my response is that it is no one's fault but our own.

But they didn't red shirt. They all played their freshman years. McKenzie played a second year. They all would have graduated by now.

I for one am not arguing that we struggled because we're young. This is a fairly experienced team.

[casualfan]

Casualfan, even if someone agrees with you, I don't get your point. Whoever's fault it was that players left in the past doesn't change the fact that this team is young.

No, but it helps to explain why this team is "young" (I put young in quotations, because they are by no means young. I assume you mean experienced).

[casualfan]

But they didn't red shirt. They all played their freshman years. McKenzie played a second year. They all would have graduated by now.

I for one am not arguing that we struggled because we're young. This is a fairly experienced team.

Maybe they should have. Canty played 7 minutes a game his frosh year. Latham played less than 5 and McKenzie played less than 3.

Hindsight being what it is McKenzie likely would have never played meaningful minutes here, but based on what Canty and Latham did after they left I don't think there is any doubt they could have been a contributor to help bridge the gap as the new guys get their feet under them.

It's just tiring year after year seeing people use some variation of "it's ok, these are bumps in the road. we have a ton of new guys".

My question is when does that end and if it doesn't will people just perpetually use that excuse? It's not like we just had a coaching change or graduated a shitton of seniors. We graduated 1 guy last year.

[boozehound]

What were people expecting from this team early in the season? Personally I expected a rough start along the lines of what we are seeing. We are a relatively inexperienced team in terms of actual meaningful playing team. Dee Davis, our Senior PG still makes Freshman mistakes from time to time and isn't known for his ability to lead others in general. Stainbrook knows the game very well and has a nice fundamental offensive game, but is something of a liability on the defensive end due to his size and lack of quickness. Farr is in his Junior year, but hasn't really played all that many minutes.

The bad news is that we have 2 losses. The good news is that we were very competitive in both games, and neither team is likely to be a 200 RPI team. They will both very likely make the tournament. Neither team is a bad basketball team. They are both teams we should beat, IMHO, but they aren't bad teams. I'm a little surprised that people are freaking out this badly this early in the season, although I guess I shouldn't be.

[XU 87]

Maybe they should have. Canty played 7 minutes a game his frosh year. Latham played less than 5 and McKenzie played less than 3.

Hindsight being what it is McKenzie likely would have never played meaningful minutes here, but based on what Canty and Latham did after they left I don't think there is any doubt they could have been a contributor to help bridge the gap as the new guys get their feet under them.

Well, they didn't. But maybe they should have gotten injured and red shirted. Maybe they should have forgotten to take a high school class and could have sat out their freshman year. The main reason they didn't redshirt was because that team was very thin and needed warm bodies. Crawford went pro and the kid from Pittsburgh transferred to Akron. On top of that, Martin was ineligible. I think that left X with 10 scholarship players.

Canty left because he was behind Martin and new recruit Dez Wells. (Maybe the staff should have foreseen that Wells would get expelled). Canty was not going to play here. He was about 6'4" and didn't handle the ball well nor he could he shoot real well. The fact that he averaged about 14 per game two years ago with Appalachian State doesn't mean he would have contributed here. I note that he also shot 25% from the three that year. I think he's a 6'4"ish interior player, which he can play at Appalachian State, but not here. (Canty is no longer playing on Appalachian State. It appears the new coach asked him to leave.)

After he left, Latham played limited minutes for Loyola (Maryland).

But that failed recruiting class has no bearing on what's going on now.

[boozehound]

Maybe they should have. Canty played 7 minutes a game his frosh year. Latham played less than 5 and McKenzie played less than 3.

Hindsight being what it is McKenzie likely would have never played meaningful minutes here, but based on what Canty and Latham did after they left I don't think there is any doubt they could have been a contributor to help bridge the gap as the new guys get their feet under them.

It's just tiring year after year seeing people use some variation of "it's ok, these are bumps in the road. we have a ton of new guys".

My question is when does that end and if it doesn't will people just perpetually use that excuse? It's not like we just had a coaching change or graduated a shitton of seniors. We graduated 1 guy last year.

There is some serious revisionist history in this post, particularly with regards to Canty and Latham.

1. They would never have redshirted because we badly needed the depth due to Miller's departure leaving us with a one-man class (Jeff Robinson). Both were projected to be decent recruits. Do you remember that year? We had zero depth. Canty was injured for a while his Freshman year as well.

2. Neither Canty nor Latham has done anything since leaving to suggest they would be successfull at Xavier. Canty has a decent Sophmore year averaging 14PPG for App State in the SoCon. He spent much of last season academically ineligable. Latham averaged 7.5 pts and 4 rebounds per game last year, as a Senior, at Loyola Maryland, in the MAAC.

I don't think those two guys would be helping to bridge much of anything at Xavier. In fact, I dont' think they would even crack the rotation on this team.

That class was just a miss. The players were ranked as decent recruits, but they didn't pan out. Not just at Xavier. Anywhere.

[Xville]

I think we are finally headed in the right direction with this team. I don't ignore the fact that the last two seasons were disappointments. To me, they certainly were and as much as I love Xavier basketball, they weren't a fun group to watch.

The past two seasons were on the coaching staff...they didn't recruit well, the players didn't really develop all that much, and as I said at times the team was not much fun to watch at all.

However, with this group, I believe we are finally starting to see the light at the end of the tunnel. It looks like all of these freshmen can play. However, it is up to the coaching staff to develop these guys and make them better. If they do not get better, then it is time to start questioning Mack and his staff. People will point to the fact that he has made 2 sweet 16's. That is great and all, but what have you done for me lately? That may sound harsh, but that is the nature of the beast in big time athletics. For now, I am in wait and see mode..by year's end we will be able to tell if Mack and his staff can handle the job...they finally hit on the recruiting trail, now can they hit on their development.

[casualfan]

Yeah, you guys are right. The last two years (once Miller's recruits were gone) have been stellar. Let's just keep doing what we're doing and hope the results change.

[XU 87]

Yeah, you guys are right. The last two years (once Miller's recruits were gone) have been stellar. Let's just keep doing what we're doing and hope the results change.

You're reading whatever it is you want to see. No one said the class was good. In fact, I said it was a failed class and boozehound said it was a miss.

But your argument that somehow that class is affecting this team is just wrong. Barring an injury, they would all be gone by now had they stayed. And they left because they weren't good enough to contribute here at the level we all expect.

[Xville]

Yeah, you guys are right. The last two years (once Miller's recruits were gone) have been stellar. Let's just keep doing what we're doing and hope the results change.

I understand how you can be frustrated. I am certainly frustrated with what has transpired over the last two years. However, I can see that this new crop of freshmen, plus Abel, has more talent than we have seen in quite a while. So, I am willing to see what develops over the course of the year, and I know that realistically we are going to have some ups and downs with this team. If I see development over the course of the year, I will be comfortable with Mack and his staff....If I do not see development, I think it is time to start asking some serious questions.

[XU 87]

The past two seasons were on the coaching staff...they didn't recruit well, the players didn't really develop all that much, and as I said at times the team was not much fun to watch at all.



I agree and disagree, to some extent. We lost Wells and Lyons two years ago. Had they come back, we likely would have had a top 25 team. Wells would have made a big difference last year- we had no true wing player with size. But other than Martin, the staff whiffed with it's first true recruiting class.

[casualfan]

You're reading whatever it is you want to see. No one said the class was good. In fact, I said it was a failed class and boozehound said it was a miss.

But your argument that somehow that class is affecting this team is just wrong. Barring an injury, they would all be gone by now had they stayed. And they left because they weren't good enough to contribute here at the level we all expect.

You're right. I'm sure no subsequent recruiting decisions were affected by the misses in that class...

Shit rolls downhill man.

[D-West & PO-Z]

We probably should have red-shirted Canty, Latham, and Mckenzie so that we had 3 mediocre seniors this year and 3 less scholarships for the promising talented freshman.

[XU 87]

You're right. I'm sure no subsequent recruiting decisions were affected by the misses in that class...

Shit rolls downhill man.

I will give you another chance. Please explain how players who would have graduated and would not have been on this year's team affect this year's team. I would also like for you to explain how those players who no longer would have been on the team would affect this year's freshman, who would not have played with these graduated players.

Take your time coming up with a response. I suspect you will need it.

[XU2011]

Good Grief, take it easy. Yes, the guy who took us to two Sweet 16's in his first three years is in over his head. The guy who had a top 20 recruiting class in over his head. Just because the team lost doesn't mean Mack just forgot how to coach or has now suddenly turned incompetent.

.

I'm less interested in what Jordan Crawford did and beating Lehigh, than I am now.

You do realize if we can't win away from Cintas this year, we won't be making the NCAA. Years 4,5,6 of Mack would be no post season, lose in play in game, no post season. When is the last time Xavier missed the NCAA (Round of 64) 3 years in a row? That'd be prior to 1982. That's not really a time period of Xavier basketball I wish to go back to, do you?

[GoMuskies]

I'm less interested in what Jordan Crawford did and beating Lehigh, than I am now.

You do realize if we can't win away from Cintas this year, we won't be making the NCAA. Years 4,5,6 of Mack would be no post season, lose in play in game, no post season. When is the last time Xavier missed the NCAA (Round of 64) 3 years in a row? That'd be prior to 1982. That's not really a time period of Xavier basketball I wish to go back to, do you?

I'd say it's basically on par with the last three years of Skip's tenure. '99, '00 and '01 saw two NITs and an embarrassing first round thumping by Notre Dame as an 11 or 12 seed.

This season is young, though. We're not there yet.

[XU2011]

Casualfan, even if someone agrees with you, I don't get your point. Whoever's fault it was that players left in the past doesn't change the fact that this team is young.

How is this team young? We start 2 seniors, 2 juniors and a freshmen.

The first guys off the bench are usually 2 sophomores (Myles and Reynolds).

We only play 3 frosh and 2 have limited minutes- Macura and Sumner.

[D-West & PO-Z]

I'm less interested in what Jordan Crawford did and beating Lehigh, than I am now.

You do realize if we can't win away from Cintas this year, we won't be making the NCAA. Years 4,5,6 of Mack would be no post season, lose in play in game, no post season. When is the last time Xavier missed the NCAA (Round of 64) 3 years in a row? That'd be prior to 1982. That's not really a time period of Xavier basketball I wish to go back to, do you?

I'm confused. Is it you assertion that because we went 1-2 in this thanksgiving tourney that we wont win any road games this year?

[XU 87]

I'm less interested in what Jordan Crawford did and beating Lehigh, than I am now.

You do realize if we can't win away from Cintas this year, we won't be making the NCAA. Years 4,5,6 of Mack would be no post season, lose in play in game, no post season. When is the last time Xavier missed the NCAA (Round of 64) 3 years in a row? That'd be prior to 1982. That's not really a time period of Xavier basketball I wish to go back to, do you?

We played in the post season last year. I saw the game.

It's a little early to be declaring the season a total loss after 7 games.

By way of your first sentence, are you denigrating Mack's other Sweet 16's?

[casualfan]

I will give you another chance. Please explain how players who would have graduated and would not have been on this year's team affect this year's team. I would also like for you to explain how those players who no longer would have been on the team would affect this year's freshman, who would not have played with these graduated players.

Take your time coming up with a response. I suspect you will need it.

We took a few frontcourt guys who left early. Once they left we were playing catchup which caused us to take a guy like Chris Cantino who ate up a scholarship that could have been used on a different player that would still be on the roster and contributing.

As I said. Shit. Rolls. Downhill.

[XU2011]

We played in the post season last year. I saw the game.

It's a little early to be declaring the season a total loss after 7 games.

By way of your first sentence, are you denigrating Mack's other Sweet 16's?

Losing in the play-in game is not something I would ever put as a feather in the cap, so to speak, of a Xavier program.

The fact is this, it really is not difficult to comprehend.

The last time Xavier was not in the NCAA tournament (Round of 64) for three (3) consecutive years, was PRIOR TO 1982. Unless this team learns to win games away from Cintas, that will change from 1982 to 2013-15.... years 4, 5 and 6 of Mack's tenure. That is not acceptable.

And by the way, not denigrating Mack's 2 Sweet 16's- just putting some context there- the first one was with Miller's team and Crawford, and the second one was because Lehigh beat Duke.

If that's what you want to discuss, that's fine with me.... I think the fact that we could have our worst 3 consecutive years of men's basketball at Xavier since 1982, is a bit more concerning.

[XU 87]

We took a few frontcourt guys who didn't pan out (Latham and McKenzie). Once they left we were playing catchup which caused us to take a guy like Chris Cantino who ate up a scholarship that could have been used on a different player that would still be on the roster and contributing.

Chris Cantino was given a scholarship, in August, because Dez Wells got expelled. He left after one year. Other than Dez's then available scholarship, he did not use anyone else's scholarship.

[XU 87]

.

And by the way, not denigrating Mack's 2 Sweet 16's- just putting some context there- the first one was with Miller's team and Crawford, and the second one was because Lehigh beat Duke.

If that's what you want to discuss, that's fine with me.... I think the fact that we could have our worst 3 consecutive years of men's basketball at Xavier since 1982, is a bit more concerning.

I suggest you watch the team play before declaring that "this could be the worst three seasons since 1982". You're too young to worry this much. I think I gave you the same advice last year.

As for Mack's sweet 16's, he was the coach of both teams. But you give him no credit for those wins. I bet you would have given him the blame had they not made the Sweet 16.

[XU2011]

I'm confused. Is it you assertion that because we went 1-2 in this thanksgiving tourney that we wont win any road games this year?

If we can't win at an empty, neutral site high school gym against not so great competition, I don't have a ton of confidence we can walk into an arena at Butler, Georgetown, St. John's, Missouri, whoever... and a win a game.

[XU 87]

If we can't win at an empty, neutral site high school gym against not so great competition, I don't have a ton of confidence we can walk into an arena at Butler, Georgetown, St. John's, Missouri, whoever... and a win a game.

Maybe we should just cancel the games and call off the season. We have no shot.

Or maybe, just maybe, we should see if the team can work on, and correct, the problems it showed last week.

[XU2011]

I suggest you watch the team play before declaring that "this could be the worst three seasons since 1982". You're too young to worry this much. I think I gave you the same advice last year.

As for Mack's sweet 16's, he was the coach of both teams. But you give him no credit for those wins. I bet you would have given him the blame had they not made the Sweet 16.

I don't need to defend the facts of where this program is and where we have been. I've already laid those out. If you choose to ignore and hope for the best, more power to you.

[D-West & PO-Z]

If we can't win at an empty, neutral site high school gym against not so great competition, I don't have a ton of confidence we can walk into an arena at Butler, Georgetown, St. John's, Missouri, whoever... and a win a game.

See last year. We lost 3 games in an empty ballroom then we won 5 games away from Cintas after that. Now we werent great on the road last year by any means but I also think we have a better team this year.

[XU 87]

I don't need to defend the facts of where this program is and where we have been. I've already laid those out. If you choose to ignore and hope for the best, more power to you.

If you want to declare, after game 7, that "the season is over; we suck and won't qualify for even the NIT", then that is your choice.

One thing I've learned- it's a long season. That's why we play through March.

[D-West & PO-Z]

I don't need to defend the facts of where this program is and where we have been. I've already laid those out. If you choose to ignore and hope for the best, more power to you.

I think its erroneous that you give Mack no credit for the two Sweet 16 appearances as the bigest knock people seem to be giving to Mack is that he is a bad in game coach but he seems to be a good recruiter. News flash, he had to coach in those games to get to the Sweet 16 regardless of who the players were recruited by. So Mack somehow gets no credit for those two seasons?

[D-West & PO-Z]

If you want to declare, after game 7, that "the season is over; we suck and won't qualify for even the NIT", then that is your choice.

One thing I've learned- it's a long season. That's why we play through March.

This

[LA Muskie]

My God. We don't play again until Saturday? This is going to be a LONG week on this board...

[waggy]

This reminds me of the "Will we win a road game all year?" thread from last season.

[GoMuskies]

This reminds me of the "Will we win a road game all year?" thread from last season.

Did we? We did. Just not very many.

Went back and checked, and if I counted correctly we managed a "stellar" 6-11 mark in road/neutral contests last year. Post-Bahamas (when the will we win a road game debate raged), we were 6-8.

[Xville]

How is this team young? We start 2 seniors, 2 juniors and a freshmen.

The first guys off the bench are usually 2 sophomores (Myles and Reynolds).

We only play 3 frosh and 2 have limited minutes- Macura and Sumner.

We may not be "young" but we are short on experience. In the eleven man rotation, we have five first year players at Xavier, and three second year players. To me, that is pretty inexperienced. Couple that with the fact that Dee Davis hasn't gotten better since he stepped foot on campus, I understand there are going to be some ups and downs this season. Again, let's see how this season plays out and see how the players develop before we get the pitchforks out.

[Muskie]

What will this board do when we have a truly bad team?

[GoMuskies]

What will this board do when we have a truly bad team?

You don't remember two years ago? That was a truly bad team.

[paulxu]

What will this board do when we have a truly bad team?


You don't remember two years ago? That was a truly bad team.

I'm trying to forget all that, but there are lots of people here who apparently want me to remember. Christ, we've only played 7 games.

[PMI]

I'd like to preface this by saying this is NOT an excuse. We played like shit in yet another holiday tournament and I don't have the answers to all the problems. But I said it when the field was finalized and I will say it again. This was a huge, huge scheduling mistake any way you slice it. This was a high risk/low to no reward situation we signed up for. We all have seen for years how our team has come out in these settings, so rather than go down to Orlando to face some tough competition, we decide to fly across the country to play some teams from the west that we are "supposed to beat" and will almost certainly not help our RPI if we beat, yet can hurt our RPI if we don't. I didn't necessarily disagree with opting out of the other tournament, if we were actually concerned with where our team could realistically be at at this point. But that's the very reason you don't take an even bigger risk and bet on yourself to win three straight on the west coast with that same team. I expected there to be some rough spots early on with many new faces, and apparently the staff and Mario did too, so why take that gamble? You can't convince me we couldn't schedule a true road or even neutral game against a high quality opponent that we'd be the underdog against, that pays huge dividends if we win and doesn't bite us if we don't. I know the tournaments afford you an opportunity to play more games than you otherwise could, but the risk you take is that you lose multiple more games, which we did. It's too late now, and the team should be thinking about nothing other than improving in a lot of areas, but the program had the opportunity to make a much better scheduling decision in the offseason, and I think we dropped the ball big time. Every year since the Miller days, these OOC tournaments have either helped us get a better NCAA seed or they've hurt us from doing so. They matter, and who you face in them matters in a huge way to our resume. During the season, the staff needs to be thinking about how the team is playing and improving, but during the offseason, they need to be building the kind of schedule that puts us in the best position to build a resume, and this was a failure in that regard.

It'll be nice to get back home Saturday, but Alabama won't be easy. I hope our guys can take something positive away from being humbled in California, but I worry about some of the limitations we cannot really expect to change (especially on the defensive end.) I still think we'll be a good team, but there's no reversing the dent our resume took this weekend.

[smileyy]

Couple that with the fact that Dee Davis hasn't gotten better since he stepped foot on campus

He's gotten better. He just hasn't gotten any taller, longer, quicker, or faster. When what you bring to the table is "Taller than Drew Lavender", well, you're not bringing much.

[LA Muskie]

I agree with you, PMI. I don't think we can afford not playing in exempt tournaments. We need the extra games for resume-building purposes, but for that same reason we need to give ourselves a chance to build a resume. Butler is a perfect example. They took down UNC and Georgetown in the Bahamas, which will more than overshadow the Oklahoma loss. This weekend will pay dividends for them come March.

Ours, on the other hand, will be viewed as a negative -- and even winning the tournament would not have paid off all that much. We complaint that it can be difficult to schedule top-ranked, high-major programs. These tournaments make it easy. Heck, it may be our only chance against some of these schools. Plus, since it's early in the season, the odds of beating a UNC are much, much higher.

[casualfan]

I agree with you, PMI. I don't think we can afford not playing in exempt tournaments. We need the extra games for resume-building purposes, but for that same reason we need to give ourselves a chance to build a resume. Butler is a perfect example. They took down UNC and Georgetown in the Bahamas, which will more than overshadow the Oklahoma loss. This weekend will pay dividends for them come March.

Ours, on the other hand, will be viewed as a negative -- and even winning the tournament would not have paid off all that much. We complaint that it can be difficult to schedule top-ranked, high-major programs. These tournaments make it easy. Heck, it may be our only chance against some of these schools. Plus, since it's early in the season, the odds of beating a UNC are much, much higher.

This x 1000.

I have no earthly idea what they were thinking when they decided to back out of Orlando.