Rothstein: Big East is Mid-Major

[X-Fan]

This morning I was driving back to work after voting and stumbled upon the John Feinstein show. I'll preface this by saying I can't stand the guy, but I couldn't find any other sports talk on the radio.

He was telling a story about Rollie Massimino, his new NAIA job, and how he got Nova to play against him (game is tonight).

After telling the story, he adds something to the effect "Did you hear the Big East has been declared Mid-Major by the AP?" He goes on to explain that the Big East has fallen into some category where the AP will not report on their games automatically (like it does for the Big 5 conference games), and that SID's will have to "call-in" the box scores for their games. Naturally he adds that he thinks the A10 is not mid-major.

At this point I'm yelling at my radio and wanting to punch John in the face.

Is he correct about this whole AP thing and reporting on Big East games? I did a few quick searches but couldn't find anything on it.

I CANNOT wait for the Big East and X to prove everybody wrong this year, and then really come into their own next year.

[LA Muskie]

At this point I'm yelling at my radio and wanting to punch Jon in the face. Is he correct about this whole AP thing and reporting on Big East games? I did a few quick searches but couldn't find anything on it.
It sounds like you're upset that he's reporting news. Based on your report, he wasn't saying the Big East is mid-major, he was reporting that the AP is treating the conference like a mid-major conference.

[Masterofreality]

This morning I was driving back to work after voting and stumbled upon the Jon Rothstein show. I'll preface this by saying I can't stand the guy, but I couldn't find any other sports talk on the radio.

He was telling a story about Rollie Massimino, his new NAIA job, and how he got Nova to play against him (game is tonight).

After telling the story, he adds something to the effect "Did you hear the Big East has been declared Mid-Major by the AP?" He goes on to explain that the Big East has fallen into some category where the AP will not report on their games automatically (like it does for the Big 5 conference games), and that SID's will have to "call-in" the box scores for their games. Naturally he adds that he thinks the A10 is not mid-major.

At this point I'm yelling at my radio and wanting to punch Jon in the face.

Is he correct about this whole AP thing and reporting on Big East games? I did a few quick searches but couldn't find anything on it.

I CANNOT wait for the Big East and X to prove everybody wrong this year, and then really come into their own next year.

I believe you mean John Feinstein.

[X-Fan]

It sounds like you're upset that he's reporting news. Based on your report, he wasn't saying the Big East is mid-major, he was reporting that the AP is treating the conference like a mid-major conference.

Yes I am upset. It's complete crap. If the AP is doing this, I hadn't heard about it until now. Was this public knowledge?


I believe you mean John Feinstein.

You are correct. Got my Jon/John's confused. Wish I could edit the title, but obviously cannot.

[Patrick Bateman]

Majors have football

[GoMuskies]

Majors have football

How does one explain Kentucky, then?

[xubrew]

One of the key signs to not being a mid-major is that you don't have an absolute cow whenever someone calls you a mid-major. If someone were to say that about the ACC, everyone would just shrug it off.

Really, who cares?? If we get six teams into the tournament and three to the Sweet Sixteen or further, then I don't think anyone will be saying that. If they do, then we won't be paying attention to them.

[Patrick Bateman]

One of the key signs to not being a mid-major is that you don't have an absolute cow whenever someone calls you a mid-major. If someone were to say that about the ACC, everyone would just shrug it off.

Really, who cares?? If we get six teams into the tournament and three to the Sweet Sixteen or further, then I don't think anyone will be saying that. If they do, then we won't be paying attention to them.

B/C they have football programs

If the Big East gets 6 teams in how many should the ACC have?

[ammtd34]

So what? We'll find out soon enough if the A-10 or Big East is better this year. Right now, everything is a matter of opinion. It will all play out.

[Patrick Bateman]

So what? We'll find out soon enough if the A-10 or Big East is better this year. Right now, everything is a matter of opinion. It will all play out.

Last year, A10>BE

[xubrew]

B/C they have football programs

If the Big East gets 6 teams in how many should the ACC have?

It depends on how many ACC teams have a good year this year.

The MAC, SBC and CUSA have football as well, yet they're considered mid major.

[Patrick Bateman]

It depends on how many ACC teams have a good year this year.

The MAC, SBC and CUSA have football as well, yet they're considered mid major.

ACC is stacked, should easily get 8 in. Highly doubt BE gets 6

[ammtd34]

Last year, A10>BE

What's your point?

[xubrew]

ACC is stacked, should easily get 8 in. Highly doubt BE gets 6

Well, everyone starts out at zero. It doesn't matter what anyone thinks or says. That was my point. If the Big East wants to be considered big time, then they need to win just like everyone else. Who cares what John Rothstein says??

[Patrick Bateman]

So what? We'll find out soon enough if the A-10 or Big East is better this year. Right now, everything is a matter of opinion. It will all play out.

Last year, no matter of opinion, A10>BE

[Patrick Bateman]

Well, everyone starts out at zero. It doesn't matter what anyone thinks or says. That was my point. If the Big East wants to be considered big time, then they need to win just like everyone else. Who cares what John Rothstein says??

It was Paul Finebaum, not Rothstein

Big East needs at least one sweet sixteen team, lets start there.

[XUOHTX]

Look, when you lose UC, Pitt, Syracuse, UConn, Lville, and Rutgers and replace them with Xavier, Butler, and Creighton. Your conference is going to take a hit. Add to that down years from some of the stalwarts in the first year of the "New Big East" and yeah, respect will be lost. Bottom line is the BE has to perform, top to bottom and most likely, it will take a few years to get back to "Major" status.

I would only be mad about this if you also said the AP considered the AAC "major."

[XUOHTX]

One of the key signs to not being a mid-major is that you don't have an absolute cow whenever someone calls you a mid-major. If someone were to say that about the ACC, everyone would just shrug it off.


No, that "reporter" would lose his/her job because they obviously have no knowledge of college basketball.

[ammtd34]

Last year, no matter of opinion, A10>BE

I'm talking about this year. I thought you'd realize that since you highlighted it in my post. Again, this year will all play out.

[xubrew]

It was Paul Finebaum, not Rothstein

Big East needs at least one sweet sixteen team, lets start there.

Oh, well even more reason to not give a shit.

[Patrick Bateman]

Look, when you lose UC, Pitt, Syracuse, UConn, Lville, and Rutgers and replace them with Xavier, Butler, and Creighton. Your conference is going to take a hit. Add to that down years from some of the stalwarts in the first year of the "New Big East" and yeah, respect will be lost. Bottom line is the BE has to perform, top to bottom and most likely, it will take a few years to get back to "Major" status.

I would only be mad about this if you also said the AP considered the AAC "major."

They also lost ND and USF. The real questions is how many down years can the BE afford. How long can it sustain itself while getting its status back up.

[Smails]

It was Paul Finebaum, not Rothstein

Big East needs at least one sweet sixteen team, lets start there.

Why are you even here? Isn't November a little early to be trolling?

[LadyMuskie]

I can't believe we're back to this again. Does it really matter what we're labeled? Just win games and none of this matters.

[X-Fan]

I would only be mad about this if you also said the AP considered the AAC "major."
I was actually wondering about their status. They lost Louisville, but still have UCONN (defending champ), SMU (unproven), Memphis (for what it's worth), and I guess UC. For name recognition throw in Temple. 2 ranked, 2 getting votes.

The A10 has one team ranked (VCU), and a few getting votes (Dayton, GW, UMASS). Last year was a perfect storm for them. A year where the was no dominant team, but many were good. They played the RPI game and won.

The Big East has Nova (ranked 12th), and two teams getting votes (GTown & Providence). Without a doubt many teams have serious name recognition: Xavier, Marquette, Butler, Creighton, and St. Johns. 1 ranked, 2 getting votes. As has been previously discussed, a number of teams have highly touted recruiting classes coming in (Seton Hall, X, Prov), but that means nothing until it materializes on the court.

I guess what annoyed me the most is the, IMO, obvious media bias. BEAST is with FOX. AAC & A10 have deals with ESPN. I do not see how you can drag down the BEAST without including AAC & A10. Hopefully this year and next year will put all of the BS to bed.

[PMI]

If we had to make a thread for every time John Feinstein said something wrong, this site would crash for good. I am very, very familiar with John Feinstein. He's a good author and a decent guy, but he is extremely stubborn in his opinions (regardless of how wrong he is proven) and has a lot of agendas. Occasionally, he hits the nail on the head on something. But usually, he beats dead horses over a point he is so dead set on driving into everyone's brains, that it becomes a broken record. He started his agenda against the "New" Big East well before it ever existed. That should tell you all you need to know. No need to get worked up over this one.

[Muskied]

They also lost ND and USF. The real questions is how many down years can the BE afford. How long can it sustain itself while getting its status back up.

Sustain itself? WTF does that even mean? This is the part I don't understand. Like conferences outside Major Programs will just not exist...like islands which will just fall into the ocean? I really don't understand what is driving the overwhelming fear of not being "major". We won't ever have football, get over that part, so we will never be like those programs-label them whatever you want. If you think BE teams not winning championships means we can't get on tv, and then can't recruit, and then can't win, and then we can't make money, and then we can't get good coaches, and then can't get in NCAA tournaments, and then can't fill arenas, and then can't get nonconference games, and then we become D2....I think that's a SIGNIFICANT stretch. Yes, we'll be challenged like, say 280 other D1 programs? (didn't do the math) but it's extreme paranoia to conclude that Xavier is ___ down years away from "not sustaining itself".

[NY44]

I'm not expecting a lot of respect for X or the conference until the season starts and we prove ourselves in non-conference games. A lot of talent is gone and while there is talent left and incoming, it's unproven.

I love when our program is underrated and overlooked. It usually has pretty good results.

[muskienick]

In the comparison between the Big East and the A-10, the best distinction is represented by the answers to these two questions:
1) How many A-10 members would jump at the chance to join the Big East?
2) How many Big East members would jump at the chance to join the A-10?

[Kahns Krazy]

I prefer High-Mid major to Low-Major. Elite Shit Major is not good.

Super non-major is ok, but I prefer Uber Center Major. It lets us sneak up on people.

I'm going back to the uniform thread.

[casualfan]

I get that perception is a big part of why people are upset here, but as someone pointed out earlier the only recourse is to win big OOC games and win in March.

Force them to notice you. The league did not do well with that last year. Can we improve this year? I certainly hope so.

I know this, we better get some teams to the second weekend of the tourney this year.

[paulxu]

Somebody call me when ya'll decide if it was Feinstein, Finebaum or Rothstein.

[MADXSTER]

Regardless, I'm thinking he's jewish. Not that there is anything wrong with that.

[xubrew]

When you get down to it, I think that if the Big East wants to be considered a top five conference, then they need to finish in the top five. Otherwise, people won't be able to say they're a top five league.

Now, when you look at a league like the AAC, if THEY want to be considered a top five conference, then they really need to finish in the top five. Otherwise, people won't be able to say they're a top five league.

Then there is the Atlantic Ten. To be a top five conference, then they need to do what they can to finish in the top five. Otherwise, people won't be able to say they're a top five league.

And how about the Mountain West?? They've done better than the Pac Twelve for several years in a row now, but this really is a sink or swim year for them! If they want to remain relevant, then they need to finish in the top five. Otherwise people won't continue to think of them as one of the best leagues.

The Missouri Valley has Wichita State, who appears to be a top ten team. They also have another good team in Northern Iowa, and perhaps another darkhorse in Evansville. Nevertheless, I don't think they'll be considered a top five conference....unless of course they're able to finish in the top five.


Okay, I might be using hyperbole, but not by much. I used to absorb every single preseason rating and ranking I could. Now, I just think most of them are silly, because that's literally what they sound like. Every criticism of the Big East amounts to nothing more than "In order for people to think the league is good, the league needs to be good."

The nice thing about basketball is that it's not football. Everyone truly does start out at zero. As unlikely as it is, if the SWAC gets out there and wins 80 percent of their OOC games, they'll be the biggest story in basketball, and probably have multiple teams in the rankings, have fantastic RPIs, and put half the league in the NCAA Tournament.

So, when people say the Big East needs to do well to get respect this year....I just can't help but think "NO SHIT!!!"

[xudash]

If we had to make a thread for every time John Feinstein said something wrong, this site would crash for good. I am very, very familiar with John Feinstein. He's a good author and a decent guy, but he is extremely stubborn in his opinions (regardless of how wrong he is proven) and has a lot of agendas. Occasionally, he hits the nail on the head on something. But usually, he beats dead horses over a point he is so dead set on driving into everyone's brains, that it becomes a broken record. He started his agenda against the "New" Big East well before it ever existed. That should tell you all you need to know. No need to get worked up over this one.

He's a Dukie, isn't he. Clearly in love with the ACC.

[xudash]

In the comparison between the Big East and the A-10, the best distinction is represented by the answers to these two questions:
1) How many A-10 members would jump at the chance to join the Big East?
2) How many Big East members would jump at the chance to join the A-10?

Very good start nick, but let's keep going - of course, what I'm about to write supports the obvious answers to your questions.

Um, let's see, $50 MILLION a year to the Big East from our broadcast partner. Greg Christopher is counting about $5 million dollars being dropped into Xavier's bank account EVERY YEAR. No reason to dwell on the putrid amount of money A10 teams receive each year.

People who bark about Fox's viewership numbers at this point are wishing against hope for Fox's demise in sports. I don't know of one truly talented businessman who would bet against Murdoch. I have these conversations off and on with a lot of different people, including Gator Bowl officials and others like that. Virtually to a man, the consensus is that the Basketball 7 (+3) were in the absolute right place at the absolute right time. We tend to lose context about that as time now has moved on.

We're very fortunate to be a part of the Big East, and we made our luck making that happen, but the long-term success we'll reap from here is fun to anticipate. Everything else is noise. XYZ conference has to do this this year. ABC school has to do that this year. Sure, okay. As has been noted, we have to sustain our winning ways. We know how to do that. We've never been better resourced to continue to do that. Just Do It!

The talent that the Big East front office has in place now dwarfs the amateur hour that is the A10, and the A10 can't get first class talent because of its inherent limitations.

Mr. Bateman appears to be a fan of an A10 team, and probably Little Brother at that. So, that sent me over to UDPRIDE for the hell of it to see what the stooges have been talking about it. Free comedy. I don't know of any other way to put it. Even though some of them have talked themselves into this position, at least they now understand that the Criers are better off in a lower level conference, versus moving into the Big East - like that will ever happen.

Either way, Mr. Bateman seems to be rather occupied with Xavier.

[bleedXblue]

The insecurity of some is astounding. I don't care what anyone calls us. I know we have a basketball program better than half of the programs in the Big Ten, ACC, SEC, PAC-10 etc. etc. Big East will be fine.

[paulxu]

When you get down to it, I think that if the Big East wants to be considered a top five conference, then they need to finish in the top five. Otherwise, people won't be able to say they're a top five league.

How about number 4 in conference RPI last year. Does that count as being in the Top Five?

http://www.rpiforecast.com/live-conf-rpi.html

[xubrew]

How about number 4 in conference RPI last year. Does that count as being in the Top Five?

http://www.rpiforecast.com/live-conf-rpi.html

Yes. It could actually be considered Top Four.

[Masterofreality]

Yeah, I know...There goes MOR going off on ESPN again, but...

The former Big East configuration received the benefit of continual touting to the point of ad nauseum by the four letter network. They also did a wonderful job of playing the RPI game to get much more favorable NCAA seeds. Now, there is no extra touting going on.

The league teams just have to win games- especially in the non-conference. If that happens the numbers will take care of themselves.

And, yeah, a Top 4 RPI in the new League configuration's first year, is pretty solid.

[DC Muskie]

Feinstein gave us the Knobber. And that's all I got to say about that.

[bobbiemcgee]

Last year, A10>BE

We got 40% of our teams in the Dance and 4 million more in TV money. Not bad for Year 1.

[LadyMuskie]

I prefer High-Mid major to Low-Major. Elite Shit Major is not good.

Super non-major is ok, but I prefer Uber Center Major. It lets us sneak up on people.

I'm going back to the uniform thread.

Can we color code this system of major ranking so it's easier to remember?

[xu82]

Can we color code this system of major ranking so it's easier to remember?

Maybe we can base it on the National Security Threat system, since we've all spent time mastering that.

[vee4xu]

You know, I am just going to go with the late-Al Davis and say "Just Win Baby!" Because when and if that happens, then you're called champion and who cares where you came from to become one.

[xu82]

You know, I am just going to go with the late-Al Davis and say "Just Win Baby!" Because when and if that happens, then you're called champion and who cares where you came from to become one.

I love the sentiment, but I am not a fan of crazy old men who ruin sports franchises while wearing velour sweat suits. Could you find.... maybe a Donald Trump quote instead? Or maybe just pretend you just invented the "Just Win Baby". I could turn my head and pretend it was fresh, because it's so true.

[xeus]

Yawn.

[muskiefan82]

There is no mid-major. There is only Zool.

[xubrew]

There is no mid-major. There is only Zool.

I believe Zool chose NYC as his entrance point to our world. That is, if you believe the movie Ghostbusters to be true to fact, which I do.

Perhaps Zool just wanted to go to the Big East Tournament.

[94GRAD]

I believe Zool chose NYC as his entrance point to our world. That is, if you believe the movie Ghostbusters to be true to fact, which I do.

Perhaps Zool just wanted to go to the Big East Tournament.


There is no mid-major. There is only Zool.

I believe it is Zuul

[muskiefan82]

I believe it is Zuul

I went phonetic for the uninitiated.

[X-band '01]

I believe it is Zuul

It's levi-O-sa, not levi-o-SAR.

[Patrick Bateman]

Full article: http://espn.go.com/espn/dickvitale/s...-68-team-field

AAC (4): Connecticut, SMU, Memphis, Cincinnati

ACC (10): Duke, North Carolina, Virginia, Louisville, Pittsburgh, Syracuse, Florida State, NC State, Notre Dame, Miami

AMERICA EAST (1) : Hartford

ATLANTIC 10 (4): VCU, Massachusetts, Dayton, George Washington

ATLANTIC SUN (1): Florida Gulf Coast

BIG 12 (5): Kansas, Texas, Iowa State, Oklahoma, Kansas State

BIG EAST (2): Villanova, Georgetown

BIG SKY (1): Weber State

BIG SOUTH (1): Coastal Carolina

BIG TEN (7): Wisconsin, Michigan State, Nebraska, Ohio State, Iowa, Michigan, Illinois

BIG WEST (1): UC-Irvine

COLONIAL (1): William and Mary

C-USA (1): UTEP

HORIZON (1): Green Bay

IVY (1): Harvard

MAAC (1): Iona

MAC (1): Akron

MEAC (1): NC Central

MVC (1): Wichita State

MOUNTAIN WEST (2): San Diego State, UNLV

NEC (1): St. Francis, NY

OVC (1): Murray State

PAC-12 (5): Arizona, UCLA, Stanford, Colorado, Utah

PATRIOT (1): American

SEC (5): Kentucky, Florida, Georgia, Arkansas, LSU

SOUTHERN (1): Wofford

SOUTHLAND (1): Stephen F. Austin

SWAC (1): Alabama State

SUMMIT (1): Denver

SUN BELT (1): Georgia State

WAC (1): New Mexico State

WCC (2): Gonzaga, BYU

[muskiefan82]

It's levi-O-sa, not levi-o-SAR.

Honestly, don't you two read?

[blobfan]

Love the last turn on this thread but did we ever answer the question of whether or not the AP is treating some conferences differently? And if so, does it make a real difference?

[LadyMuskie]

It's levi-O-sa, not levi-o-SAR.

I can't rep you, but if I could, I would.


Love the last turn on this thread but did we ever answer the question of whether or not the AP is treating some conferences differently? And if so, does it make a real difference?

Probably. And, no. How many people go to the AP for its sports section? Probably, the same number of people who turn to ESPN for coverage on the crisis in Syria.

[dnnrobert]

Love the last turn on this thread but did we ever answer the question of whether or not the AP is treating some conferences differently? And if so, does it make a real difference?

I would like to know that myself.

No way the ACC gets 10 schools in. 8-9 is possible, but I would say around 7 is more likely.

If the Big East is mid-major, does that mean there are only 5 major basketball conferences? Hell, the SEC sucks compared to the other P5 leagues. I don't buy that crap at all. Right now, the ACC and Big Ten are the top dogs. After that, it's the Big 12 and Pac 12. I think in most years, the SEC, Big East, and AAC will occupy spots 5-7, but each league will occasionally move up to #3 or 4 and may drop below the Mountain West or Atlantic 10 on an off year. Those 9 conferences will almost never be outside the top ten in the RPI.

If your league consistently puts 3 or more teams in the tournament, you are not mid-major IMO. Mid-major would be leagues like the WCC, Missouri Valley, MAC, and C-USA. Those leagues have higher quality basketball than the low-major conferences, but will rarely put more than 2 teams in the tournament.

[Muskie]

Full article: http://espn.go.com/espn/dickvitale/s...-68-team-field

AAC (4): Connecticut, SMU, Memphis, Cincinnati

ACC (10): Duke, North Carolina, Virginia, Louisville, Pittsburgh, Syracuse, Florida State, NC State, Notre Dame, Miami

AMERICA EAST (1) : Hartford

ATLANTIC 10 (4): VCU, Massachusetts, Dayton, George Washington

ATLANTIC SUN (1): Florida Gulf Coast

BIG 12 (5): Kansas, Texas, Iowa State, Oklahoma, Kansas State

BIG EAST (2): Villanova, Georgetown

BIG SKY (1): Weber State

BIG SOUTH (1): Coastal Carolina

BIG TEN (7): Wisconsin, Michigan State, Nebraska, Ohio State, Iowa, Michigan, Illinois

BIG WEST (1): UC-Irvine

COLONIAL (1): William and Mary

C-USA (1): UTEP

HORIZON (1): Green Bay

IVY (1): Harvard

MAAC (1): Iona

MAC (1): Akron

MEAC (1): NC Central

MVC (1): Wichita State

MOUNTAIN WEST (2): San Diego State, UNLV

NEC (1): St. Francis, NY

OVC (1): Murray State

PAC-12 (5): Arizona, UCLA, Stanford, Colorado, Utah

PATRIOT (1): American

SEC (5): Kentucky, Florida, Georgia, Arkansas, LSU

SOUTHERN (1): Wofford

SOUTHLAND (1): Stephen F. Austin

SWAC (1): Alabama State

SUMMIT (1): Denver

SUN BELT (1): Georgia State

WAC (1): New Mexico State

WCC (2): Gonzaga, BYU

I guess we'll see how well Dick does at the end of the season.

[xu82]

I guess we'll see how well Dick does at the end of the season.

I'm willing to bet he's more loud and bombastic than accurate. I don't expect any takers.

[X-band '01]

Honestly, don't you two read?

Per the Fox Sports Live drinking game, every time you hear "Honestly" and "Bloody Hell" in either of the movies, you must have a drink of Sailor Jerry's.

[xu82]

Per the Fox Sports Live drinking game, every time you hear "Honestly" and "Bloody Hell" in either of the movies, you must have a drink of Sailor Jerry's.

You may have a problem.

(We should get together at Dana's.)

[LadyMuskie]

I'm willing to bet he's more loud and bombastic than accurate. I don't expect any takers.

What are the odds that Dickie V is still "with it" enough to produce such a list? I'm pretty sure the yelling is now a cover-up for the senility that's been setting in.

[xu82]

What are the odds that Dickie V is still "with it" enough to produce such a list? I'm pretty sure the yelling is now a cover-up for the senility that's been setting in.
We actually lived near him not long ago and had some mutual friends. He would show up for a lot of appearences and liked to be seen about town. Once seen, he was on to the next thing. The first two innings of a baseball game is odd. I don't wish bad things on people, but that throat condition he had was a bit of a relief for the rest of us.