Unc

[RealDeal]

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/ncaaf-dr-saturday/unc-academic-and-athletic-officials-steered-student-athletes-to-bogus-classes-181214478.html

"Kenneth Wainstein, a former top U.S. Justice Department official, said during a press conference Wednesday that academic counselors ushered as many as 3,100 students – approximately 1,500 of them student-athletes – into bogus classes that were geared toward keeping student-athletes eligible for play over the past 18 years (1993-2011)."

I'm curious to see what the NCAA does about this.

[Kahns Krazy]

I think this is only an NCAA issue if there was preference given to athletes in the classes. It sounds like half of the students in these classes were non-athletes. Not sure how you can sanction an athletic program for what is an academic issue.

[blobfan]

Whoa! So about 1,600 non-athletes were sacrificed to help cover up the athletes participation? Doesn't that go beyond NCAA violations to theft by false promise or something?

[RealDeal]

I think this is only an NCAA issue if there was preference given to athletes in the classes. It sounds like half of the students in these classes were non-athletes. Not sure how you can sanction an athletic program for what is an academic issue.

Interesting take. So then possibly a class action suit against UNC by the parents of these kids who didn't get the education they paid for? What a mess.

[Juice]

Whoa! So about 1,600 non-athletes were sacrificed to help cover up the athletes participation? Doesn't that go beyond NCAA violations to theft by false promise or something?

Also shows that getting "paid" with a free education is a complete sham.

[xubrew]

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/ncaaf-dr-saturday/unc-academic-and-athletic-officials-steered-student-athletes-to-bogus-classes-181214478.html

"Kenneth Wainstein, a former top U.S. Justice Department official, said during a press conference Wednesday that academic counselors ushered as many as 3,100 students – approximately 1,500 of them student-athletes – into bogus classes that were geared toward keeping student-athletes eligible for play over the past 18 years (1993-2011)."

I'm curious to see what the NCAA does about this.

Most likely nothing.

Academic freedom allows universities to make classes as rigorous or as easy as they see fit. The NCAA cannot tell a university that their classes aren't hard enough. Like Kahn's said, it's only an issue if these classes were only available to athletes, and/or if athletes were held to a different (i.e. lower) standard. It doesn't appear that happened.

It's way outside the spirit of what education should be about, but it's probably not an NCAA violation.

[X-band '01]

Most likely nothing.

Academic freedom allows universities to make classes as rigorous or as easy as they see fit. The NCAA cannot tell a university that their classes aren't hard enough. Like Kahn's said, it's only an issue if these classes were only available to athletes, and/or if athletes were held to a different (i.e. lower) standard. It doesn't appear that happened.

It's way outside the spirit of what education should be about, but it's probably not an NCAA violation.

Not an NCAA violation, but it certainly makes a UNC diploma almost as worthwhile as birdcage liner. And UNC is supposed to be a "Public Ivy" as well.

[xu82]

I've always been fond of UNC, but this making the NBC Nightly News was not a good thing. "Bad press is better than no press" is not always true.

[Masterofreality]

I think this is only an NCAA issue if there was preference given to athletes in the classes. It sounds like half of the students in these classes were non-athletes. Not sure how you can sanction an athletic program for what is an academic issue.

Except that 10 members of UNC's 2005 National Championship Basketball team were kept eligible by these alleged "classes".

And the NCAA somehow didn't find any of this stuff out in their first "investigation". Hmmm. Protection, or Incompetence. You decide.

"For years, its championship basketball teams were populated by players who benefitted from academic fraud – the 2005 national title team alone had 10 AFAM majors. If those titles were won with players who wouldn't have been eligible without sham grades, take down the banners yourself. Take the hardware out of the trophy cases. Wear your shame."- Pat Forde

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/unc-academic-fraud-report-forces-school-to-face-truth-about-its-culture-of-cheating-213657979-ncaaf.html?soc_src=mediacontentstory

[NY44]

The professor who held these classes was in contact with the athletic guidance counselor and they openly discussed grades for athletes. It's definitely an athletic issue too.

[xubrew]

The professor who held these classes was in contact with the athletic guidance counselor and they openly discussed grades for athletes. It's definitely an athletic issue too.

If the athletic counselors were trying to compel the professors to change the grades, or if the athletes were not held to the same standards of the other students then it is a violation. If they were merely discussing the grades, then it's not. Every counselor at every school discusses grades with professors. That's how they're able to determine how well the athletes are doing in their classes.

[NY44]

If the athletic counselors were trying to compel the professors to change the grades, or if the athletes were not held to the same standards of the other students then it is a violation. If they were merely discussing the grades, then it's not. Every counselor at every school discusses grades with professors. That's how they're able to determine how well the athletes are doing in their classes.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/23/sports/university-of-north-carolina-investigation-reveals-shadow-curriculum-to-help-athletes.html?_r=0

"Sometimes, the report said, counselors in the Academic Support Program for Student-Athletes explicitly told Mr. Nyang’oro and Ms. Crowder [the professors] what grades students needed “to remain academically or athletically eligible.”"

[paulxu]

explicitly told

= "merely discussing"

[NY44]

= "merely discussing"

The report actually has emails between them where the counselor approves the grade the professor wanted to give.

Professor, "Did you say a D will do? I’m only asking because 1, no sources, 2, it has absolutely nothing to do with the assignments for that class and 3. it seems to me to be a recycled paper."

Counselor, "Yes, a D will be fine; that's all she needs. I didn't look at the paper but figured it was a recycled one as well, but I couldn't figure from where! Thanks for whatever you can do."

[GoMuskies]

it certainly makes a UNC diploma almost as worthwhile as birdcage liner

I tried wiping with mine last night. Unfortunately, it's one ply. I'm not an animal!

[xubrew]

The report actually has emails between them where the counselor approves the grade the professor wanted to give.

Professor, "Did you say a D will do? I’m only asking because 1, no sources, 2, it has absolutely nothing to do with the assignments for that class and 3. it seems to me to be a recycled paper."

Counselor, "Yes, a D will be fine; that's all she needs. I didn't look at the paper but figured it was a recycled one as well, but I couldn't figure from where! Thanks for whatever you can do."

That IS a violation, then.

[PM Thor]

This whole thing stinks. It's a systemic failure, and I include the NCAA itself in that. Twenty years of jobbing grades for thousands of students (and student athletes) and the NCAA barely found any wrong doing in their investigation? Says to me they weren't looking too hard. This is just the most glaring example of how the NCAA is a failure, only worried about perception and the money generated. And UNC? Just think, if they were doing this, how many other schools were (or are) doing something similar? I have no doubt that this is not an isolated incident.

I hope UNC gets the death penalty, forfeits all its titles and Final Four appearances, but I know none of that will happen. Shame on UNC and the NCAA. The ACC should be proud to have both UNC and Syracuse facing major sanctions.

[XU 87]

And the NCAA somehow didn't find any of this stuff out in their first "investigation". Hmmm. Protection, or Incompetence. You decide.

"For years, its championship basketball teams were populated by players who benefitted from academic fraud – the 2005 national title team alone had 10 AFAM majors. If those titles were won with players who wouldn't have been eligible without sham grades, take down the banners yourself. Take the hardware out of the trophy cases. Wear your shame."- Pat Forde

[/URL]

As the saying goes, "The NCAA is so mad at Kentucky that they're going to put Cleveland State on probation."

And I agree with Pat Forde.

[xubrew]

This whole thing stinks. It's a systemic failure, and I include the NCAA itself in that. Twenty years of jobbing grades for thousands of students (and student athletes) and the NCAA barely found any wrong doing in their investigation? Says to me they weren't looking too hard. This is just the most glaring example of how the NCAA is a failure, only worried about perception and the money generated. And UNC? Just think, if they were doing this, how many other schools were (or are) doing something similar? I have no doubt that this is not an isolated incident.

I hope UNC gets the death penalty, forfeits all its titles and Final Four appearances, but I know none of that will happen. Shame on UNC and the NCAA. The ACC should be proud to have both UNC and Syracuse facing major sanctions.

What about SACSOC?? Why isn't anyone mad at them?? Why isn't anyone demanding that they do something??

The NCAA is not an accrediting agency. They have no say whatsoever on how universities manage their academics. I'm no fan of the NCAA's structural make up, or its leadership, or its governance, or...pretty much anything else. But, in this particular case, they simply cannot come out and render a university ineligible simply because they didn't feel the classes were challenging enough. If athletes received extra benefits, that's a violation. If athletes took easy classes that were available to all students, then they really can't do anything. The NCAA has no authority to dictate to a university what its curriculum needs to be and how easy or hard it needs to be.

UNC is an accredited university. SACSOC, and not the NCAA, is who needs to be looking into this and taking action against them.

[Masterofreality]

What about SACSOC?? Why isn't anyone mad at them?? Why isn't anyone demanding that they do something??

The NCAA is not an accrediting agency. They have no say whatsoever on how universities manage their academics. I'm no fan of the NCAA's structural make up, or its leadership, or its governance, or...pretty much anything else. But, in this particular case, they simply cannot come out and render a university ineligible simply because they didn't feel the classes were challenging enough. If athletes received extra benefits, that's a violation. If athletes took easy classes that were available to all students, then they really can't do anything. The NCAA has no authority to dictate to a university what its curriculum needs to be and how easy or hard it needs to be.

UNC is an accredited university. SACSOC, and not the NCAA, is who needs to be looking into this and taking action against them.

This is Bullshoi. What you say undermines the entire concept of higher education. If the NCAA doesn't have any say so over "academics" then why do they have an academic clearinghouse and why are guys like Myles Davis forced to sit out a year when the NCAA says they don't qualify? Of course the NCCA has standing. They can rule players in eligible, they can put schools on probation for academic fraud under the pseudonym of "lack of institutional control- like they did with the Borecats in the Charles Williams situation,- and they can do something here.

If the NCAA can't do anything then the answer to winning is for schools to create a series of courses called "Alphabet Studies" where each letter of the alphabet is it's own course, offer it to all students and then give them grades. For example "The letter D". A grade of A is given if you can write the letter D on a piece of paper and turn it in. That is your course "paper" .

Hey! Everybody gets a trophy for participating.!

[muskiefan82]

This is Bullshoi. What you say undermines the entire concept of higher education. If the NCAA doesn't have any say so over "academics" then why do they have an academic clearinghouse and why are guys like Myles Davis forced to sit out a year when the NCAA says they don't qualify? Of course the NCCA has standing. They can rule players in eligible, they can put schools on probation for academic fraud under the pseudonym of "lack of institutional control- like they did with the Borecats in the Charles Williams situation,- and they can do something here.

If the NCAA can't do anything then the answer to winning is for schools to create a series of courses called "Alphabet Studies" where each letter of the alphabet is it's own course, offer it to all students and then give them grades. For example "The letter D". A grade of A is given if you can write the letter D on a piece of paper and turn it in. That is your course "paper" .

Hey! Everybody gets a trophy for participating.!

There are a number of educational videos from Sesame Street that could be viewed for course credit about each letter as well.

[xubrew]

This is Bullshoi. What you say undermines the entire concept of higher education. If the NCAA doesn't have any say so over "academics" then why do they have an academic clearinghouse and why are guys like Myles Davis forced to sit out a year when the NCAA says they don't qualify? Of course the NCCA has standing. They can rule players in eligible, they can put schools on probation for academic fraud under the pseudonym of "lack of institutional control- like they did with the Borecats in the Charles Williams situation,- and they can do something here.

If the NCAA can't do anything then the answer to winning is for schools to create a series of courses called "Alphabet Studies" where each letter of the alphabet is it's own course, offer it to all students and then give them grades. For example "The letter D". A grade of A is given if you can write the letter D on a piece of paper and turn it in. That is your course "paper" .

Hey! Everybody gets a trophy for participating.!

So, me saying it makes more sense to want SACSOC to take action somehow undermines higher education?? How??

Screw SACSCOC giving them sanctions. Screw putting conditions on their accreditation, or perhaps even revoking it (albeit that would be stiff). Screw SACSOC even being involved at all. All that needs to happen is for the NCAA to get in there, review how easy the classes are (which they have absolutely no authority to do), and.....do what exactly??

[xubrew]

There are a number of educational videos from Sesame Street that could be viewed for course credit about each letter as well.

Yeah, if only the NCAA would step in and stop that from happening.

[xubrew]

Here is a similar problem. The NCAA is aware of it, and would like to do something about it, but they really can't. They can't just come out and say a university cannot accept transfer credits from Western Oklahoma State, or if they do they won't count toward eligibility. They'd get sued, and they'd lose huge.

I'm not disputing that the NCAA sucks. It's just that I think many people believe it has more authority over more areas than what it actually has. They can't dictate a school's academic standards or curriculum to them.

On that note, I give you the infamous Western Oklahoma State. It's a place that MANY major programs have used to skirt eligibility.

http://chronicle.com/article/Need-3-Quick-Credits-to-Play/135690

[Masterofreality]

What about SACSOC?? Why isn't anyone mad at them?? Why isn't anyone demanding that they do something??

The NCAA is not an accrediting agency. They have no say whatsoever on how universities manage their academics. I'm no fan of the NCAA's structural make up, or its leadership, or its governance, or...pretty much anything else. But, in this particular case, they simply cannot come out and render a university ineligible simply because they didn't feel the classes were challenging enough. If athletes received extra benefits, that's a violation. If athletes took easy classes that were available to all students, then they really can't do anything. The NCAA has no authority to dictate to a university what its curriculum needs to be and how easy or hard it needs to be.

UNC is an accredited university. SACSOC, and not the NCAA, is who needs to be looking into this and taking action against them.


So, me saying it makes more sense to want SACSOC to take action somehow undermines higher education?? How??


Nice attempt to throw a red herring out there to divert from your initially wrong premise that the NCAA "has no say on how universities manage their academics." That is totally off base. Period. History is full of schools being disciplined for academic deficiencies.

No one gives a crap about the SACSCOC. Every one, including writers like Pat Forde and Dan Wetzel DO give a crap about the NCAA enforcing what they should enforce. They have all called upon Emmert to stand up, make the right investigations and issue the correct punishment. it is within their purview.

[paulxu]

The NCAA has acted in a similar situation.


Jan Gengelhoff, the manager of the school’s academic counseling services admitted to doing over 400 homework assignments for numerous basketball players.

http://www.realclearsports.com/lists/infamous_ncaa_sanctions/minnesota_clem_haskins.html?state=stop

[xubrew]

Nice attempt to throw a red herring out there to divert from your initially wrong premise that the NCAA "has no say on how universities manage their academics." That is totally off base. Period. History is full of schools being disciplined for academic deficiencies.

No one gives a crap about the SACSCOC. Every one, including writers like Pat Forde and Dan Wetzel DO give a crap about the NCAA enforcing what they should enforce. They have all called upon Emmert to stand up, make the right investigations and issue the correct punishment. it is within their purview.

I don't think you're differentiating between eligibility, and the actual makeup of an academic curriculum. The NCAA has absolutely nothing to do with the latter. They can't tell a university that they need to make their classes harder.

If it's a situation where athletes are cheating, or having grades changed when other students aren't, or have someone else doing their work for them, that's a violation. If it's simply a case of athletes being in classes where everyone who writes a one page paper gets an A for the class, that's not a violation. There isn't anything the NCAA can do about that. That's an issue for the accrediting organization, ie SACSOC.

Think about it for a second. They can't just show up at a university, demand to examine the curriculum and class requirements, and then say they don't feel they're strong enough and declare anyone who took those classes to be ineligible. Surely you can see what an outrageous notion that is.

"No one gives a crap about SACSOC." Really?? Now who's the one that's undermining higher education??

[LA Muskie]

Brew, that may all be true. But I believe the report takes the position that athletes' grades were orchestrated by the program chair and their advisors.

There's also a question about whether the classes qualify for eligibility purposes since they weren't graded by a professor.

Put another way, there's plenty for the NCAA to look at that is within its jurisdiction. And if true, to punish the program.

[Masterofreality]

"No one gives a crap about SACSOC." Really?? Now who's the one that's undermining higher education??

No one gives a crap about the SACSOC- IN THIS CASE with North Carolina and their athletic results. This is clearly a case where the NCAA has jurisdiction....and it has to do with academic fraud.

Stop with the diversionary red herrings. You're off base, brother.

[xubrew]

Brew, that may all be true. But I believe the report takes the position that athletes' grades were orchestrated by the program chair and their advisors.

There's also a question about whether the classes qualify for eligibility purposes since they weren't graded by a professor.

Put another way, there's plenty for the NCAA to look at that is within its jurisdiction. And if true, to punish the program.

Yes, if it's an issue with counselors in the athletic department orchestrating grades for the athletes, that's a violation. Anything outside of that really isn't. There isn't anything the NCAA can do about classes being too easy and requiring no work, especially if those classes are open to everyone.

It isn't the NCAA's job, nor should it be, to oversee a university's curriculum and make judgment calls on whether or not they fell the classes are too easy. Yet, that seems to be what people think they should be doing. To me, that's like demanding that the city fire department do something about how the traffic lights are never working. Yes, the traffic lights are definitely an issue, but the fire department isn't who everyone should be looking at to fix it.

[xubrew]

No one gives a crap about the SACSOC- IN THIS CASE with North Carolina and their athletic results. This is clearly a case where the NCAA has jurisdiction....and it has to do with academic fraud.

Stop with the diversionary red herrings. You're off base, brother.

Academic fraud is an issue the NCAA can address, but as far as the issue of the classes being a complete joke (which I have no doubt that they were), there really isn't anything they can do.

EDIT: I don't think athletics is the biggest issue here. I think it was an institutional problem where virtually an entire department decided to register students for credit hours, get paid for having students registered for those credit hours, and then not do a damn thing after that, and just give them A's. The professors got paid and didn't have to work. The students got A's and didn't have to work. Everyone's happy.

That's serious institutional issue, and the NCAA should NOT be the organization that takes the lead in addressing that. SACSOC should. I have no doubt that lots of athletes used this to their advantage, but they clearly weren't the only ones, and I seriously doubt this was done exclusively for the athletes. The department sold the grades, and probably didn't care who was buying them.

[PM Thor]

What about SACSOC?? Why isn't anyone mad at them?? Why isn't anyone demanding that they do something??

The NCAA is not an accrediting agency. They have no say whatsoever on how universities manage their academics. I'm no fan of the NCAA's structural make up, or its leadership, or its governance, or...pretty much anything else. But, in this particular case, they simply cannot come out and render a university ineligible simply because they didn't feel the classes were challenging enough. If athletes received extra benefits, that's a violation. If athletes took easy classes that were available to all students, then they really can't do anything. The NCAA has no authority to dictate to a university what its curriculum needs to be and how easy or hard it needs to be.

UNC is an accredited university. SACSOC, and not the NCAA, is who needs to be looking into this and taking action against them.

They sure as Hell act like it, especially when they sanction universities and student athletes. I'm not saying that the NCAA has to act on its own. They can act in accordance with the official sanctioning body for accreditation. Also, why would the NCAA investigate if they had no abiliy to sanction the university in the first place? (Again, what a joke of an NCAA investigation) All in all, I think this is just a giant shell game for the NCAA. They will just come out and say "Hey we can't punish a school for offering weak classes, we don't have the ability to do that."...when everyone knows that they can sanction any school that they deem has the catch-all of "lack of institutional control".

Edit, and I think it's actually SACS COC. Which is hilarious

[NY44]

For me, the academic question here is if certain students (other than athletes) were guided to these classes. I suspect they were; otherwise, earnest students would have noticed the class was a joke. I had some joke classes at X, but this would've been too much for me as a student.

Brew, the problem is that we don't know if University officials knew that this was going on. [EDIT: They should've, no doubt.] We 100% know that Athletic counselors and some coaches did. The Power Point about what they were going to do now that the professor was leaving is the most damning piece of this whole mess.

[xubrew]

It is. I left out a C. I spelled it the way I'm used to hearing it pronounced. You got me there.

[paulxu]

, and I seriously doubt this was done exclusively for the athletes. The department sold the grades, and probably didn't care who was buying them.

I think there is a good chance it was set up for the athletes' benefit, and others just piggy backed bringing a sense of it's OK.

[xubrew]

I think there is a good chance it was set up for the athletes' benefit, and others just piggy backed bringing a sense of it's OK.

Perhaps. If that's what happened, then it would change my opinion on what the NCAA's role should be.

Now, do you think that it also may be possible that there were several tenured professors in the department of African American Studies, who recognized that their department wasn't going to be overly scrutinized because...well...no one wants to come down hard on African American Studies, who simply saw an opportunity to get paid and look good without having to do any work, or teaching, or lesson planning, or grading, or anything like that??

I COMPLETELY agree that the athletic department knew about the classes. Every student on every campus knows what the easy classes are and who the easy teachers are. Same with every academic counselor, and probably every coach. I believe they took complete advantage of it. I can easily see how many players came in and said they wanted the easy classes where they didn't have to do any work. But, I don't think the athletic department was responsible for the genesis of it.

I just see this as being far further reaching than a mere athletics issue. The entire degree of study was a complete sham. I think it's outrageous, but I also don't think the NCAA is who needs to be taking the lead on this. It's really not up to them to come in and clean up a school's campus wide academic issues. I would like it if their accreditation did take a hit. For a proud school like UNC, that would hit home across the board. Outside of issuing whatever sanctions there are for improper benefits and academic fraud, which may not be all that extensive, I don't think there is all that much the NCAA can do. I also don't think they're the ones that really need to be laying the smack down, so to speak.

[paulxu]

I don't think anyone is saying the NCAA should enforce the academic standards of an institution.

What they should do is punish programs that take advantage of sham studies to keep players in school, by taking away the things they earned (wins) by gaming the system.

Wins on the court aren't in the accrediting body's purview. They are right in the wheelhouse of the NCAA.

[xubrew]

Yeah....one way or another, they're going to get clobbered, or at least they should.

I still think the NCAA needs to let SACSCOC get in their first and sanction the university and the degree program. Once that happens, the NCAA can come in and levy huge penalties based on that.

[Kahns Krazy]

If the NCAA can declare a class a sham, what are the sham/non-sham guidelines? Is there an acceptable level of "hardness" for a class? I lived with a theater major in college that took a theater class 6 straight semesters. There was absolutely no 'homework' or exams. I took a class called "the meaning of leisure".

Some classes are harder, some are easier. Where is the line?

[GoMuskies]

I had a three hour class at Xavier that consisted of reading the first several chapters of a draft of a professor's textbook and having a 30 minute meeting to talk to the professor about it. And I got an A.

[xubrew]

If the NCAA can declare a class a sham, what are the sham/non-sham guidelines? Is there an acceptable level of "hardness" for a class? I lived with a theater major in college that took a theater class 6 straight semesters. There was absolutely no 'homework' or exams. I took a class called "the meaning of leisure".

Some classes are harder, some are easier. Where is the line?

I seriously doubt that they can. They've tried and failed with Western Oklahoma State. For those of you that didn't read the article, basically there are well over 100+ div1 schools that used online classes from Western Oklahoma State to get kids eligible. They registered them for sham classes, then transferred those credits in. The NCAA knows all about it, but hasn't been able to do anything.

I probably came off like I was defending UNC, and I didn't mean to, but I don't think the NCAA has any authority to declare a class a sham. That's why I think they need to have SACSCOC get in there first. Once they declare classes to be a sham, then the NCAA can get in there and do their thing.

[NY44]

If the NCAA can declare a class a sham, what are the sham/non-sham guidelines? Is there an acceptable level of "hardness" for a class? I lived with a theater major in college that took a theater class 6 straight semesters. There was absolutely no 'homework' or exams. I took a class called "the meaning of leisure".

Some classes are harder, some are easier. Where is the line?

I'd say the line is when the class doesn't even meet and there's no homework or tests..

[Kahns Krazy]

So if it meets once it's okay? If there are assignments that involve watching TV, is that ok? Open book tests? Where do you draw the line, and what are the rules?

[xubrew]

So if it meets once it's okay? If there are assignments that involve watching TV, is that ok? Open book tests? Where do you draw the line, and what are the rules?

I don't know where the line is exactly, but I think one can easily determine that UNC was definitely over it.

[GoMuskies]

So you know it when you see it, eh 'brew?

[xubrew]

So you know it when you see it, eh 'brew?

If it's a close call, maybe not. If it's not a close call, then yeah. I think we all can.

I do agree that it's more of an academic issue than an athletic issue, though. That's why I think the NCAA kind of needs to wait and see what academic repercussions come from this before jumping in and taking action.

[paulxu]

This is what the SACS president said. They can "sanction" the school...whatever that means. (Makes it less attractive to prospective students?)


"UNC has to verify every degree they give all the time. We ask them to make sure all courses really are legitimate," Wheelan said. "All we can do ... is put them on sanction for lack of integrity.

That doesn't do crap about the kids who got those degrees, or more importantly doesn't help the NCAA. It needs to act, like it's done in the past, and bring some sort of serious reprecussion on the athletic department.

[xubrew]

This is what the SACS president said. They can "sanction" the school...whatever that means. (Makes it less attractive to prospective students?)



That doesn't do crap about the kids who got those degrees, or more importantly doesn't help the NCAA. It needs to act, like it's done in the past, and bring some sort of serious reprecussion on the athletic department.

I agree, Paul, but here's the problem. There isn't anything in the manual (at least not that I've seen) that addresses the most egregious part of this.

They can probably nail them for advisors negotiating grades. If there is evidence that someone else did the work for the students, they can get them on that as well.

The catch is that the classes were open to all students. There is nothing that I can find that dictates any sort of minimum on how often a class needs to meet or how much work must be completed in order for that class to count toward eligibility. If these classes were only for athletes, you can nail them for extra benefits. But, they weren't. They wanted to do something about the Western Oklahoma State classes, but couldn't. I don't think they'll be able to nail UNC either unless they can prove fraud (and by that I mean they either cheated or did not complete what was required, which will be tough to prove since there really weren't any requirements) or if they can prove extra benefits.

Most people don't seem to believe this or understand this, but the NCAA is limited to what they can do. Apparently SACSCOC is as well.

[waggy]

Would seem to me there would be some sort of ramification for running a sham of an "educational institution". Loss of institutional control would seem to cover it. No investigation necessary or prudent. Fine them "Maryland times 20", and be done with it.

[paulxu]

I only know if there is no consequence to the sports program, whose involvement in manufacturing grades is obvious from the emails, then the door is open for every school out there. And this is the vaunted "ivy league school of the south." Bunch of crap.

[xubrew]

I only know if there is no consequence to the sports program, whose involvement in manufacturing grades is obvious from the emails, then the door is open for every school out there. And this is the vaunted "ivy league school of the south." Bunch of crap.

I think they can get them for the players who are mentioned in the emails where grades were negotiated. They can't get them on all 1500 counts, which would be nice.

[xu82]

For a variety of reasons, I have long been a big UNC fan. This could get ugly, and I wouldn't be able to complain.

[GoMuskies]

For a variety of reasons, I have long been a big UNC fan. This could get ugly, and I wouldn't be able to complain.

The NCAA isn't going to do a damned thing to UNC.

[xu82]

The NCAA isn't going to do a damned thing to UNC.

You may be right, and I'm not sure how I feel about that. I'm torn...

[NY44]

So if it meets once it's okay? If there are assignments that involve watching TV, is that ok? Open book tests? Where do you draw the line, and what are the rules?

Something needs to be actually graded in terms of what is taught or learned. ANYTHING actually. Participation, homework, tests, papers, paper mache, macaroni art.

EDIT: Eh, now that I think about it, you're right. If your degrees are crap, then so are your graduates and their subsequent careers. Sooner or later, people will notice this.

[paulxu]

There are precedents of a sort. Memphis got hammered when Rose's SAT was questioned.
Minnesota had this:


Jan Gengelhoff, the manager of the school’s academic counseling services admitted to doing over 400 homework assignments for numerous basketball players.


What's the difference between an academic counselor doing your paper, or calling up the prof to decide the grade for non-existant work?
Minnesota got this:


The program was put on four years’ probation and was stripped of all wins and conference titles from 1993-94 to 1998-99.

It may be hard to discipline one of the top basketball schools in the country, but I would think the pressure from other schools who have been disciplined would come to bear

[xubrew]

I think that in the long run, UNC would do itself a favor if they showed some integrity (I mean that in the literal sense). They say they value education. Well, if that's the case, then they should willingly forfeit anything they gained by exploiting the very thing they say they value most. Get rid of everyone who was responsible (which they've started to do), and then give up everything that they as an institution gained from it. That DEFINITELY includes athletics.

[Masterofreality]

It may be hard to discipline one of the top basketball schools in the country, but I would think the pressure from other schools who have been disciplined would come to bear

Unless, in the interest of going forward...and the new "separation of powers" with the Big 5 Conferences, they're OK with letting bygones be bygones and then they'll all do the same bogus garbage.

[Kahns Krazy]

Something needs to be actually graded in terms of what is taught or learned. ANYTHING actually. Participation, homework, tests, papers, paper mache, macaroni art.

EDIT: Eh, now that I think about it, you're right. If your degrees are crap, then so are your graduates and their subsequent careers. Sooner or later, people will notice this.

Exactly. There are entire schools where all the classes are easier. Does UNC get any credit for having a more challenging Econ 201 class than Appalachian State? What if one school gives 4 credit hours for a class another school gives 3 for? How do you start to legislate this as the NCAA?

[xubrew]

Exactly. There are entire schools where all the classes are easier. Does UNC get any credit for having a more challenging Econ 201 class than Appalachian State? What if one school gives 4 credit hours for a class another school gives 3 for? How do you start to legislate this as the NCAA?

The thought of those people in Indianapolis even trying to take that on is very unsettling.

[NY44]

How do you start to legislate this as the NCAA?

Well in this particular case they will have to do something about the athletic department dictating grades.

[xubrew]

Mark Emmert is calling the North Carolina report "troubling." Well, that's nice. You can't help but notice that he made no indication on what actual violations they may have committed.

http://www.newsobserver.com/2014/10/27/4269526_ncaas-emmert-calls-n-carolina.html?rh=1

In other news, Mark Emmert is calling Mount Everest "steep." He also finds winters in Alaska to be "cold."

[Masterofreality]

Mark Emmert is calling the North Carolina report "troubling." Well, that's nice. You can't help but notice that he made no indication on what actual violations they may have committed.

http://www.newsobserver.com/2014/10/27/4269526_ncaas-emmert-calls-n-carolina.html?rh=1

In other news, Mark Emmert is calling Mount Everest "steep." He also finds winters in Alaska to be "cold."

Actually he said that the report is "deeply troubling" fwiw.

Before the Wainstein Report, he was probably calling the North Carolina "no violation". Actually that's exactly what the NCAA said in August,2012.

"The NCAA has told University of North Carolina officials that the university apparently did not break NCAA rules in the scandal surrounding the school's Afro and African-American Studies Department, according to a statement released by the school Friday."

http://espn.go.com/college-sports/story/_/id/8322004/north-carolina-tar-heels-academic-scandal-ncaa-says-rules-not-violated

[MADXSTER]

"The NCAA has told University of North Carolina officials that the university apparently did not break NCAA rules in the scandal surrounding the school's Afro and African-American Studies Department, according to a statement released by the school Friday."

http://espn.go.com/college-sports/story/_/id/8322004/north-carolina-tar-heels-academic-scandal-ncaa-says-rules-not-violated

Kinda like, 'I did not have sexual relations with that woman.' True but skirting the issue

[Kahns Krazy]

Well in this particular case they will have to do something about the athletic department dictating grades.

Dictating grades is a violation in and of itself. It does not need a sham class to make it a problem.

I'm also quite sure "grade conversations" have happened at every D1 school, and things are said that would not be said in front of the NCAA.

[paulxu]

Actually he said that the report is "deeply troubling" fwiw.

Your honor, I object.
Overruled.
Your honor, I strenously object.

Also, some P5 schools have been hammered in the past; Minnesota, Miami, etc.
College athletics is a sham if UNC completely skates.
Watch out (insert small school name).

[GoMuskies]

College athletics is a sham

Fixed your post.

I still love them, though.

[nuts4xu]

"The NCAA has told University of North Carolina officials that the university apparently did not break NCAA rules in the scandal surrounding the school's Afro and African-American Studies Department, according to a statement released by the school Friday."


So they have Afro American AND African-American Studies Department??? I think I would have majored in Afro American Studies...and learned about guys such as Freddie "Boom Boom" Washington, Irwin M Fletcher (Fletch), Willie Ames and Bob Ross (dude who painted trees on PBS). All fine Americans who donned the Afro look in their lives, and rocked it very well.

I wish Xavier had such a program when I was there. The easiest class I could find was Human Sexuality, and in spite of all the homework I did on the subject, I only got a "B".

[paulxu]

Who knows. Maybe someday there'll be an expose' on Xavier athletics. I hope not.
I'd like to think that some of our success is due to Sister Rose.
So I ordered her book.

http://www.cincinnati.com/story/xaviersports/2014/10/28/sister-rose-ann-fleming-featured-in-new-book/18061865/

Yes. I'm a dork.

[bleedXblue]

This whole thing is headed in a direction that will have a very bad ending. You can't have institutions with such opposing differences and end goals in mind. It's like asking P&G to grow their business, but be ok without making a profit. Universities have leveraged so much of their budgets against the success of their cash cows........big time athletics. The coaches know it, the players know it, the professors know it and the university administrators know it. It's damn near collusion........everyone benefits when you win and pack the stands with paying customers. Paying customers want wins, conference titles and championships. If Xavier graduated every single student athlete with a 3.5 GPA yet only won 15 games a year, attendance would plummet. Merchandise sales drop. Enrollment takes a hit. AKA, the shit hits the fan. And the crime in all of it, is the NCAA pretending to have a handle on it. They cant possibly police all of it. The only weapon they have is it severely punish schools like UNC to deter others from doing it.

[Kahns Krazy]

Who knows. Maybe someday there'll be an expose' on Xavier athletics. I hope not.
I'd like to think that some of our success is due to Sister Rose.
So I ordered her book.

http://www.cincinnati.com/story/xaviersports/2014/10/28/sister-rose-ann-fleming-featured-in-new-book/18061865/

Yes. I'm a dork.

Sister Rose is a perfect example. I think everyone agrees that the work that Sister Rose does is exemplary, and is for the long term benefit of the school and each and every young man that comes through the program. I'm also very confident that at some point, something that Sister Rose has done has been technically on the wrong side of the letter of some NCAA rule, and I'm not one bit concerned about it. Maybe she worked with a student to resubmit work in a manner that may not be available to all students either in rule or in practical application. Even though her efforts are all in the right place - actually teaching the students what they are supposed to be learning, there may be something that is a technical violation.

And you know Sister Rose has had grade conversations with every prof in every class a player has participated in.