Also added Was ...

[Always Learning]

to the Xavier Hall of Fame was Tim O'Connell, a standout basketball and baseball player in the mid-sixties and a standout footballer in Ken Blackwell.
They were "two of my guys" and I'm proud of them. Ken could have been Governor in Ohio, but the establishement had him step back and said he could run "the next time." That turned out to be 2008, a really bad year for his party everywhere.
When we were looking to replace Don Ruberg, Tim stopped by the office on the way to baseball practice and asked if we might be interested in a "player coach."
That was a funny line, but in retrospect, maybe it would have been a better choice that GK.
Tim's selection raises the question, how many two-sport lettermen has Xavier had in the last 35-40 years, and who were they!

[Always Learning]

With some help, the late Dave Lynch was a two-letterman (basketball and baseball), as was Wally Gorka, and Tom Brennan (football and baseball.
There were a number of football players who could have (were good enough) to play baseball but there was a conflict between spring football and baseball.
Also, Don Ruberg played both basketball and baseball, "back in the day" and contrary to public opinion, Jim Bunning never letter in any sportat xavier, was there as an "athlete" for one year before signing a pro baseball contract. Ruberg turned pro (Cleveland Indians) too, after his graduation, but after a couple of years was drafted into the Army during the Korean War, eh "police Action."

[Emp]

I'm a contemporary of both, and Neither are even close to HOF credentials.

The latter has politics written all over it. Blackwell was a dashiki clad loudmouth as a freshman who eventually took a make work "community relations" job for Xavier so he could campaign from one public tit to the next. His HOF squib is quite conspicuously mostly about his political career and ultra conservative pubs, which should have nothing to do with Athletic HOF credentials.

Oconnell was a serviceable guard on mediocre basketball teams, not even close to a star or difference maker. I can think of three contemporaries on the baseball tram with better career credentials for the HOF. Joe Hawk must be scratching his head on this one.

The only common element is that they are both native Cincinnatians.

[Always Learning]

Well, don't hold back. Tell us who the three are with "better career credentials" than Tim?

[Masterofreality]

I'm a contemporary of both, and Neither are even close to HOF credentials.

The latter has politics written all over it. Blackwell was a dashiki clad loudmouth as a freshman who eventually took a make work "community relations" job for Xavier so he could campaign from one public tit to the next. His HOF squib is quite conspicuously mostly about his political career and ultra conservative pubs, which should have nothing to do with Athletic HOF credentials.

Oconnell was a serviceable guard on mediocre basketball teams, not even close to a star or difference maker. I can think of three contemporaries on the baseball tram with better career credentials for the HOF. Joe Hawk must be scratching his head on this one.

The only common element is that they are both native Cincinnatians.

Gotta agree with Emp. I don't recall Blackwell ever starting a game of football. He was a sub. I guess I should Google to see if he was NFL Drafted, but I sure don't remember it. Definitely not HOF worthy. O'connell preceded me, but I seem to remember Joe Pangrazio and Tom Rohling as better players. Those Xavier teams depended on Bob Quick, though.

[DC Muskie]

There was no election for governor in Ohio in 2008. It was 2006. I can't believe we are putting this guy into the HOF. But then again I think the concept of HOF's are generally stupid, and this is just another example as to why I am right.

[Masterofreality]

Just checked. Ken Blackwell WAS NOT NFL drafted, EVER. Some claim that he was drafted by the Dallas Cowboys, but His name does NOT appear in any Cowboys draft anywhere at anytime.

I call BowlSheet!

This was in a Breitbart article from May 15, 2014:

"Many people know Blackwell was a statewide elected official and held Senate-confirmed presidential appointments, such as being U.S. Ambassador to the United Nations. What many do not know is that he was drafted to play for the Dallas Cowboys and was part owner of a professional baseball team."

http://www.breitbart.com/InstaBlog/2014/05/15/Ken-Blackwell-Decries-Left-Co-Opting-Professional-Sports-for-Liberal-Agenda

Sorry. Nope, No NFL.

Let me tell you. Stanley "Hammer" Burrell SHOULD be in the HOF...in place of Blackwell, politics aside.

[Olsingledigit]

Sounds like Blackwell has stirred some emotions. Regardless of politics, I am sure there is a good reason for his selection. Here is a quote from part of the requirements to be in the HOF:

"In the selection of these candidates, past records must be considered; also considered are the sportsmanship exhibited by the prospective candidates at the time they were students, and the overall character and citizenship displayed by the candidates, not only as students, but later in life as well."

[Always Learning]

Sure didn't know that I was creating a firestorm by merely pointing out that two other's besides Romain were selected to the HOF.

School HOF's are questionable at best, and while I'm not an expert on how every school's does their selections. I do know that when I was at LSU, I was puzzled why two-time all-American and Heisman Trophy winner Billy Cannon was not in their HOF. I was told "because he is not a graduate, a rule for admission."

But, Billy didn't need a "degree" to gain entrance for admission to Dental School, and then post-graduate studies. They later amended that rule.

Then after being convicted of forgery, they were upset about the later life accomplishments.

At Xavier the "powers to be" placed Jim Bunning into the HOF, despite the fact Jim NEVER played varsity athletics at Xavier. He signed a professional baseball contract at the end of his freshman year.

Some say, “Jim was an assistant basketball coach.” Not true. Bob Finnell was Ned Wulk’s assistant, and only one.

Maybe, just maybe because he was a US Senator, he made the Hall. Now, by that criteria, even though he never played varsity athletics, Speaker of the House John Boehner will be “in” soon.

I don’t know of anyone here, or in the Xavier release, said Ken Blackwell was drafted by the Cowboys. It said he was signed as a “free agent.” Like Bunning, I think he’s a HOF choice based on his political career and “connections” in DC and Columbus. (BTW I apologize here for saying he ran for Governor in 2008 when it was 2006. I will give up my martini tonight as penance. Geeeee, how picky some people are.)

But, when an NFL team signs you as a “free agent” they think that possibly (and it’s a long shot) that player can make the team. I know. I’ve seen it happen.

And MOR, Joe Pangrazio surely was more “flashy” than O’Connell, but no way better. No way. And Tom Rohling was a front court player, and a steady one. And Blackwell was not a “sub” I checked with Biles and he was a three year starter.

Ever think that in Ed Biles’ seven years, only three of his players (Abramowicz, Williams, and Shinners) are in the HOF? That’s three out of some 150 recruited Biles’ players!

What about Ken Lehman, Denny Caponi, Vic Nolting, Joe Mollman, Roger Thesing, Walt Maher, and several others. How does a football player be named to the Legion of Honor and not be in the HOF? Just asking.

So, that’s what I think.

[JTG]

Is it not an Athletic Hall Of Fame ? If Ken Blackwell is in, based on his athletic accomplishments, then anyone who played intramural football or basketball should be eligible. Hell, let's make it anyone who ever played pick-up basketball on the Brockman courts eligible. As for the other guy, I never heard of him mentioned as any kind of legendary athlete, or mentioned period.

[XU 87]

Maybe, just maybe because he was a US Senator, he made the Hall. Now, by that criteria, even though he never played varsity athletics, Speaker of the House John Boehner will be “in” soon.




I think Bunning got in for his sporting accomplishments after he left X - he was in the baseball HOF when got into X's HOF. Julie Isphording got in the X HOF the same year for the same reason- post X sporting accomplishments.

I'm pretty sure Bunning was not yet a senator when he got in the X HOF.

You can debate whether or not Bunning or Ishphording should be in for accomplishments after they left XU. But something tells me that post college sport accomplishments are one of the considerations.

[DC Muskie]

I hope people are starting to see how ridiculous a concept Hall of Fame's are.

[GoMuskies]

The Class of '98 should be represented by Chris Sabo in the Xavier Hall of Fame. How do we address the travesty of Sabes not being in the Xavier Hall of Fame?!?

[Emp]

Well, don't hold back. Tell us who the three are with "better career credentials" than Tim?

Let's start with Jim Hoff. Mr. Old school baseball, 400 swings in a mirror, a la Teddie Ballgame, every single day there was no live batting practice. Signed by Reds, made it all the way to Triple-A as the double play combo with Davey C. Then the Reds landed Joe Morgan, and he went into the organization as a minor league manager. When Big Marge dumped the entire scouting and development staff, he earned a WS ring with the Jays. Is still a senior field manger in the Rays organization. His entire life has been baseball.

[Masterofreality]

Let's start with Jim Hoff. Mr. Old school baseball, 400 swings in a mirror, a la Teddie Ballgame, every single day there was no live batting practice. Signed by Reds, made it all the way to Triple-A as the double play combo with Davey C. Then the Reds landed Joe Morgan, and he went into the organization as a minor league manager. When Big Marge dumped the entire scouting and development staff, he earned a WS ring with the Jays. Is still a senior field manger in the Rays organization. His entire life has been baseball.

Unlike Ken Blackwell, Mr. Hoff was actually signed by a professional team......for real.

[Always Learning]

And so was Ken, MOR, so was Ken. Free agents in the NFL are signed to a NFL contract .... and this will shock you ... they usually get a bonus, not big, but one nevertheless.

BTW, will somebody please tell me what Jeff Fogelson ever did at Xavier to warrant being in the XU HOF? He resigned, but truth be told his contract was not renewed and in the world of athletics we call that "fired."

Bunning entered the XU HOF in 1996 at age 65. He was elected to the Senate for the first time two years later

JTG, that is just plain silly.

XU87, you are dead on. Julie never participated in any XU athletic program. We had no woman’s track or cross country teams during her day at Xavier. Her selection supports my “Bunning” argument.

And I’d also like to know why Father Paul L. O’Connor isn’t in the Hall. Adfter all, like Father Hoff, he had a great love of all Xavier athletics, attended every game, and fought to keep football during his tenure

And EMP, that’s one, who are the other two?

[Emp]

I think Bunning got in for his sporting accomplishments after he left X - he was in the baseball HOF when got into X's HOF. Julie Isphording got in the X HOF the same year for the same reason- post X sporting accomplishments.

I'm pretty sure Bunning was not yet a senator when he got in the X HOF.

You can debate whether or not Bunning or Ishphording should be in for accomplishments after they left XU. But something tells me that post college sport accomplishments are one of the considerations.


And so was Ken, MOR, so was Ken. Free agents in the NFL are signed to a NFL contract .... and this will shock you ... they usually get a bonus, not big, but one nevertheless.

BTW, will somebody please tell me what Jeff Fogelson ever did at Xavier to warrant being in the XU HOF? He resigned, but truth be told his contract was not renewed and in the world of athletics we call that "fired."

Bunning entered the XU HOF in 1996 at age 65. He was elected to the Senate for the first time two years later

JTG, that is just plain silly.

XU87, you are dead on. Julie never participated in any XU athletic program. We had no woman’s track or cross country teams during her day at Xavier. Her selection supports my “Bunning” argument.

And I’d also like to know why Father Paul L. O’Connor isn’t in the Hall. Adfter all, like Father Hoff, he had a great love of all Xavier athletics, attended every game, and fought to keep football during his tenure

And EMP, that’s one, who are the other two?

Please show any documentation that Blackwell was ever signed to anything, let alone got a bonus, by anybody. This has been debunked repeatedly as Blackwell has made such claims in his political career.

Casual, you are concededing Hoff, a rare moment of reality in this discussion. Do I really have to go on? I'll do it, but on the condition that when I deliver, you will shut the hell up on this thread.

87' you didn't do your research, and are dead wrong.

Ishpording lettered on Brockhoffs tennis teams. I can't vouch for her swimming, can't say off the top if X had swimming at that point.

AFO fronted Julie funding while she was an undergrad, and she wore the Xavier X on her singlet. She qualified for the 1984 Olympic team on the day of her class's graduation.

[XUBBall644]

I too remember Blackwell being taken to task when he ran for office about false claims he made as to his Dallas involvement. I followed Xavier football at the time and don't remember his ever being an important player.

Julie Isphording did not letter in or play any intercollegiate sports at Xavier. Xavier was just (re)starting cross country during either her junior or senior year. It was a men's team with women allowed to compete in some way. She did not run for that team. She did get sponsored by the Musketeer Club at the Boston Marathon one year and finished as (I think) the fifth woman overall wearing a Xavier jersey. Shortly after that she got sponsored by Converse and from then on represented Converse and some other corporations but not Xavier. I think her Boston race was the only time she wore a Xavier jersey. After getting the converse sponsorship, she returned the funds to the Musketeer Club that she had not spent. So she did run as a Xavier athlete but not in a collegiate event.

[Emp]

Ok, Im here to apologize personally for my ill temper a few days ago on this thread. Unjustified. Mea Culpa.

Second, Ive actually gone to the HOF site, and see that the criteria specifically includes multi-sport participants. On that basis, the selection of O'Connell is both reasonable and fits. I want to make it clear that I think Tim was a very good multi-sport guy, just not HOF level.

Third, to answer without rancor AL's challenge to name three contemporaries of O'Connell and Blackwell:

Hoff is one. My second obvious choice was Gruber. I did not realize Gruber was already in the HOF, so that knocks me down to two I think have better credentials.

Tom Grogan '66, who is in his 52nd year as the official scorer for men's basketball, was a star sailor for Xavier, later coaching the team. He was invited and participated in the '80 Oly trials in sailing, and continues to participate in sailing competitions to this day. He was also the Cross coach at Xavier, and was Julie's coach early in her career when she qualified for the Olympics.

[Emp]

QUOTE=XUBBall644;463789]I too remember Blackwell being taken to task when he ran for office about false claims he made as to his Dallas involvement. I followed Xavier football at the time and don't remember his ever being an important player.

Julie Isphording did not letter in or play any intercollegiate sports at Xavier. Xavier was just (re)starting cross country during either her junior or senior year. It was a men's team with women allowed to compete in some way. She did not run for that team. She did get sponsored by the Musketeer Club at the Boston Marathon one year and finished as (I think) the fifth woman overall wearing a Xavier jersey. Shortly after that she got sponsored by Converse and from then on represented Converse and some other corporations but not Xavier. I think her Boston race was the only time she wore a Xavier jersey. After getting the converse sponsorship, she returned the funds to the Musketeer Club that she had not spent. So she did run as a Xavier athlete but not in a collegiate event.[/QUOTE]

Close, but inaccurate in some details, wrong on a few.

Julie was a high school swimmer and tennis player. She did play tennis at X for Brockhoff. Her running started as a way to get in shape for tennis. I was present at her first race, when she showed up in tennis shoes for an open cross country race at Princeton HS. No one could figure out who she was, but she was waaaaaaay out front.

You are correct that the Musketeer Club fronted her money to travel to qualifying races before she had Converse sponsorship. At the time, Avon was sponsoring a series of national races for women, including a 30K race that was held in Cincinnati at the Avon HQ. After placing highly, she needed to go to more Avon races. I cannot document how many races she wore the Xavier singlet, locally and nationally, but it was many more than one time.

[Always Learning]

EMP ... I will second, third, fourth etc the selection of Tom Grogan. Great student, all-time, and I mean all-time, fan of anything Xavier.
I get a huge kick seeing him on TV at every game. He, and Jim Gels, Roger Ruhl, Terry Wallace, Denny O'Brien, Bob Queenan, Hap O'Daniel, etc are all in my HOF!

I remember fondly the Saturday Big Jim and I went up to Lake Cowan to see a regatta Xavier and Steve were hosting (Miami and OSU were the other schools as I recall) and after getting there, we saw a breakfast buffet cooking on the grills and Bloody Mary's to start things off. After a couple or races, there was grilled hamburgers, baked beans and cold beer.

Jimmy said, if he was going to do college over again, he would be playing football, he'd join the Sailing Club.

At the Spring Sports banquet that year, a Musketeer Club sponsored gig at the Cincinnati Club, the baseball team gave Joe Hawk a portable radio. When the sailing club moderator was speaking, Joe turned up the Reds game on his radio way, way too loud disrupting Steve who was speaking but Steve's retort was priceless .. "I have always thought they should flood Crosley Field and make it a sailing lake."

Dem were da days ... but EMP, when I called you out to name "three others" I was referring only to baseball. You named one. Truth be known I think, and have thought for a long time, that Rich Donnelly should be in the HOF. He was singed by the Twins after graduation, and after fours years gave up the chase for a trip to THE SHOW and went into MLB coaching. He has 42 years under his belt with nine different teams.
Jeff Fogelson
Many in the HOF are there earned it, some are there because of politics ... but nobody has explained to me yet why Jeff Fogelson is in there, or why people like Father O'Connor, S.J., Joe Mollman, Roger Thesing, Denny Davis, Dr. Janson, and on and on and on are not.

One last bit re: Ken Blackwell. When he ran for Mayor, he was questioned NOT about having been with the Cowboys (albeit a short time) but because in his TV commercial he was referred to as a "former all-American football player at Xavier." I was in town with theOilers and upon seeing it I get a big kick out of it. That Sunday, at the Bengal game I visited with him, and asked him "what year he made "all-American, that somehow I missed it."
We both just had a laugh,

Pace Domini