Butler Coach taking leave of absence...

[kyxu]

Woh

http://www.indystar.com/story/sports/college/butler/2014/10/02/butler-coach-brandon-miller-takes-leave-of-absence/16588013/

[xubrew]

Chris Holtmann actually has more head coaching experience and success than Brandon Miller does.

[PMI]

Hope everything will be alright with him. I want him to be the Butler coach for a long, long time.

[mistabeecee41]

Not sure what's going on, but prayers go out to him. Some rumblings on twitter/Butler board that the phrase 'medical leave' is being used a bit loosely.

[THRILLHOUSE]

Goodman tweeted it wouldn't be a shock if he did not return and that he left OSU a few years ago for "stress related issues".

[Mel Cooley XU'81]

Wrong line of work.

[Pete Delkus]

Gosh, he could have just dealt with stress and semi-fame with alcohol, saturated fats, carbs and associates wives...

[nuts4xu]

Gosh, he could have just dealt with stress and semi-fame with alcohol, saturated fats, carbs and associates wife's...

Yep and end up looking like this....

http://assets.nydailynews.com/polopoly_fs/1.171847.1314040778!/img/httpImage/alg-mountaineers-huggins-jpg.jpg

[xubrew]

Gosh, he could have just dealt with stress and semi-fame with alcohol, saturated fats, carbs and associates wives...


Yep and end up looking like this....

http://assets.nydailynews.com/polopoly_fs/1.171847.1314040778!/img/httpImage/alg-mountaineers-huggins-jpg.jpg

Huggins has been rather successful, so I think that's worked for him. I always say you shouldn't knock it until you've tried it.

[nuts4xu]

Huggins has been rather successful, so I think that's worked for him. I always say you shouldn't knock it until you've tried it.

I didn't say that way of life can't be successful, but if the stress gets to you now, I don't know how you would make it through a run to the final 4. Huggins drowns his sins and troubles with booze and women. His health has also suffered due to his lifestyle. You are right, it has worked for him...but I can't say that line of work and dealing with it in that fashion is for the faint of heart. If you are in your 30's and already having stress related health issues, it may be best to find some other way to earn your living. Otherwise you could be in for a very short life in basketball...and on this planet in general.

[Xavgrad08]

The following is a tweet from Goodman. "Sad news of Butler’s Brandon Milller taking leave of absence. Close friends of his told me he has basically been out of contact for months".Goodman continued "They also said that virtually no one saw him out in July during recruiting period. Would not be shocked if he does not return".

It is a not a good sign when the head coach is nowhere to be found during the recruiting period. Butler could become a cellar dweller if they are not careful.

[xu82]

It is a not a good sign when the head coach is nowhere to be found during the recruiting period. Butler could become a cellar dweller if they are not careful.

Yeah, the clock is running on the recruiting period.... This could be an issue for Butler. Their history of running clocks is shaky at best.

Edit: but whatever it is, I hope he's alright.

[xubrew]

The following is a tweet from Goodman. "Sad news of Butler’s Brandon Milller taking leave of absence. Close friends of his told me he has basically been out of contact for months".Goodman continued "They also said that virtually no one saw him out in July during recruiting period. Would not be shocked if he does not return".

It is a not a good sign when the head coach is nowhere to be found during the recruiting period. Butler could CONTINUE TO BE a cellar dweller if they are not careful.

Fixed it for you.

[vee4xu]

Suddenly, Butler goes from national feel-good story to a mess. The transition from the Horizon League, to the A-10 to the Big East may have been too much for them to handle. When they were the David with Heyward, et al, no one expected them to be good. They had a few good years and making it to the Final Four twice in a row and a shot off the front of the rim at the end from winning it all is something. But, Stevens must have sensed that the little-train-that-could may have gotten in over it's head by going the Big East. Time will tell, but at this point, Butler has some very serious work to do in order to achieve the heights that vaulted them from Horizon League nobody and near NCAA champs to 4-14 in the Big East with coaching uncertainty in just two short years.

[JTG]

Actually the replacement may be a better coach than Miller. He has D1 experience at Gardner Webb as head coach. Miller was not the choice of many BU fans. Word is he hasn't been around since May. Coaching is not the profession for someone with stress issues.

[xudash]

Actually the replacement may be a better coach than Miller. He has D1 experience at Gardner Webb as head coach. Miller was not the choice of many BU fans. Word is he hasn't been around since May. Coaching is not the profession for someone with stress issues.

How is it not the case that this school has effectively lost a year of recruiting? This is the absolute last thing that Butler needed to have happen, short of incurring a multiple year probation.

[PMI]

I have been saying it since Butler joined the league that they were not as great an addition as everyone thought because they (more so than other programs) are one iffy hire away from being in big trouble. Everyone thought they could ride their Final Four runs forever, but the truth is, they never had the building blocks of a sustainable great program, unless they had a total rock star for a coach. They don't anymore, and they appear to be bottom feeders for the foreseeable future. I really think they are going to suck routinely in the Big East, and that sucks for a conference that really can't afford too many teams to suck. If there really is something legitimately wrong with Miller's health, I'm sorry to hear that. But from a basketball standpoint, I see Butler dragging the league down for awhile.

[Milhouse]

At the time Butler was worth it to bring in due to Stevens alone. Obviously no one thought he would ever leave Butler.

[PMI]

At the time Butler was worth it to bring in due to Stevens alone. Obviously no one thought he would ever leave Butler.

Really? I would argue that anyone who thought he was staying at Butler for a significant amount of time had heir heads in the sand. X fans of all people should know. To add a team to your conference based on one guy like that is inherently flawed, and we are seeing that now.

[JTG]

How is it not the case that this school has effectively lost a year of recruiting? This is the absolute last thing that Butler needed to have happen, short of incurring a multiple year probation.

Because they are still run like a Horizon League school. Very small time thinking.

[JTG]

Really? I would argue that anyone who thought he was staying at Butler for a significant amount of time had heir heads in the sand. X fans of all people should know. To add a team to your conference based on one guy like that is inherently flawed, and we are seeing that now.

Guess the BE should dial up the Flyers....nahhh !!!!!

[Xaveriana]

Not sure what's going on, but prayers go out to him. Some rumblings on twitter/Butler board that the phrase 'medical leave' is being used a bit loosely.

Two of my sources have conflicting accounts:

Source 1: I heard he swallowed his vomit during a test.
Source 2: I heard he pulled a knife on Mr. Hand

However it happened he was a good coach and a good kid.

[X-band '01]

I have been saying it since Butler joined the league that they were not as great an addition as everyone thought because they (more so than other programs) are one iffy hire away from being in big trouble. Everyone thought they could ride their Final Four runs forever, but the truth is, they never had the building blocks of a sustainable great program, unless they had a total rock star for a coach. They don't anymore, and they appear to be bottom feeders for the foreseeable future. I really think they are going to suck routinely in the Big East, and that sucks for a conference that really can't afford too many teams to suck. If there really is something legitimately wrong with Miller's health, I'm sorry to hear that. But from a basketball standpoint, I see Butler dragging the league down for awhile.

I'm not sure I completely agree with that line of logic. One of the reasons the AAC got multiple bids last year was the fact that there was a clear separation between the haves and have-nots of that league. The top teams (UC, UofL, UConn, Memphis, SMU) were able to beat up the bottom-feeders pretty effectively.

The Big East cannibalized itself during the regular season because of parity. Butler and DePaul are about as close to a gimmie during conference play as you'll find. Look at what Seton Hall (8th place team) did to Xavier and also to Villanova during the Big East tournament.

[Smails]

Two of my sources have conflicting accounts:

Source 1: I heard he swallowed his vomit during a test.
Source 2: I heard he pulled a knife on Mr. Hand

However it happened he was a good coach and a good kid.

Source 1: "He was a brown-noser Lou, you hated him"

Source 2: "No, he just called him a dick"

[bleedXblue]

Really? I would argue that anyone who thought he was staying at Butler for a significant amount of time had heir heads in the sand. X fans of all people should know. To add a team to your conference based on one guy like that is inherently flawed, and we are seeing that now.

Butler will be fine. They didn't get an invite based on Stevens alone. Come on, they had two final 4's in the last 5 years. They've hit a bump in the road.

[bleedXblue]

I'm not sure I completely agree with that line of logic. One of the reasons the AAC got multiple bids last year was the fact that there was a clear separation between the haves and have-nots of that league. The top teams (UC, UofL, UConn, Memphis, SMU) were able to beat up the bottom-feeders pretty effectively.

The Big East cannibalized itself during the regular season because of parity. Butler and DePaul are about as close to a gimmie during conference play as you'll find. Look at what Seton Hall (8th place team) did to Xavier and also to Villanova during the Big East tournament.

The Big East just wasn't very good last year.

[Milhouse]

I have been saying it since Butler joined the league that they were not as great an addition as everyone thought because they (more so than other programs) are one iffy hire away from being in big trouble. Everyone thought they could ride their Final Four runs forever, but the truth is, they never had the building blocks of a sustainable great program, unless they had a total rock star for a coach. They don't anymore, and they appear to be bottom feeders for the foreseeable future. I really think they are going to suck routinely in the Big East, and that sucks for a conference that really can't afford too many teams to suck. If there really is something legitimately wrong with Miller's health, I'm sorry to hear that. But from a basketball standpoint, I see Butler dragging the league down for awhile.

I think there was a lot of speculation that he would stick around for a LONG time after turning down UCLA. But who knows.

[ammtd34]

The Big East just wasn't very good last year.

And Butler was the worst. They're not in good shape right now at all.

[xubrew]

I have been saying it since Butler joined the league that they were not as great an addition as everyone thought because they (more so than other programs) are one iffy hire away from being in big trouble. Everyone thought they could ride their Final Four runs forever, but the truth is, they never had the building blocks of a sustainable great program, unless they had a total rock star for a coach. They don't anymore, and they appear to be bottom feeders for the foreseeable future. I really think they are going to suck routinely in the Big East, and that sucks for a conference that really can't afford too many teams to suck. If there really is something legitimately wrong with Miller's health, I'm sorry to hear that. But from a basketball standpoint, I see Butler dragging the league down for awhile.

Okay, say Murray State had held on to beat Butler in 2010 (I have a soft spot for Murray, and that game still kind of bugs me), and Pitt had beaten them in in 2011. They go out well before the Final Four both times. Butler would still be far more accomplished than any other Big East candidate with a longer sustained period of success than anyone else.

Butler finished in the top 25 for three straight years before they made their first Final Four run. They were consistently safely inside the bubble, and had been to two Sweet Sixteens prior to that as well. They weren't George Mason. They didn't go from constantly being way outside the NIT, to the Final Four, and then back into obscurity just a year later. Butler had been around for awhile, and had been good for awhile. They had gone through coaching changes, and remained solid prior to anyone even knowing who Brad Stevens was.

When you hire Barry Collier, and replace him with Thad Matta, and replace him with Todd Lickliter, and replace him with Brad Stevens, that's a sign that it's the program and not the coach that is solid. No one remembers this, but when Lickliter left everyone said Butler was done. When they were good Stevens's first year, everyone said it was because he did it with Lickliter's players. No one really seemed to think Stevens was all that great until his last year there.

[xubrew]

I think there was a lot of speculation that he would stick around for a LONG time after turning down UCLA. But who knows.

Matthew Graves seemed to think so. Had he known Stevens was going to leave, then he probably would have never left himself, and Butler probably wouldn't be in nearly as rough of shape as they are.

[GoMuskies]

Personally, I think Stevens expected to stick around for quite a while at Butler. However, I doubt he expected the Boston Celtics to come calling.

[bleedXblue]

And Butler was the worst. They're not in good shape right now at all.

Actually, DePaul was.

I think they'll do a little better this year and finish in the middle of the pack. Having Jones back is huge for them.

[casualfan]

I have been saying it since Butler joined the league that they were not as great an addition as everyone thought because they (more so than other programs) are one iffy hire away from being in big trouble. Everyone thought they could ride their Final Four runs forever, but the truth is, they never had the building blocks of a sustainable great program, unless they had a total rock star for a coach. They don't anymore, and they appear to be bottom feeders for the foreseeable future. I really think they are going to suck routinely in the Big East, and that sucks for a conference that really can't afford too many teams to suck. If there really is something legitimately wrong with Miller's health, I'm sorry to hear that. But from a basketball standpoint, I see Butler dragging the league down for awhile.

Can't you pretty much say that about any school in the conference other than Georgetown, Nova, and maybe Marquette?

[xsteve1]

Actually, DePaul was.

I think they'll do a little better this year and finish in the middle of the pack. Having Jones back is huge for them.

They actually have a shot to be a tourney team this year and are rated in the top 50-60 in most pre-season polls.

[JTG]

Butler will be fine. They didn't get an invite based on Stevens alone. Come on, they had two final 4's in the last 5 years. They've hit a bump in the road.

Sorry Bleed, it WAS STEVENS. The guy was a miracle worker. That team had no business going to 2 FF's.

[xudash]

Sorry Bleed, it WAS STEVENS. The guy was a miracle worker. That team had no business going to 2 FF's.

I agree completely. It was primarily Stevens, but it also was him discovering Heywood and that center they had who we had also recruited.

[Milhouse]

Or was it Pitt completely blowing the game? So many small things factor in.

[xudash]

Or was it Pitt completely blowing the game? So many small things factor in.

In an effort to launch this thread towards 50 pages, allow me to opine that it was all about "luck."

[GoMuskies]

In an effort to launch this thread towards 50 pages, allow me to opine that it was all about "luck."

Andrew Luck hadn't arrived in Indy yet.

[JTG]

In an effort to launch this thread towards 50 pages, allow me to opine that it was all about "luck."

No, Luck was still QB at Stanford.

[ammtd34]

No, Luck was still QB at Stanford.

I'll be at ND vs. Stanford tomorrow. Maybe Brad Stevens will be there.

I'm sorry, what?

[Masterofreality]

The Butler way:

A couple of magical years and then a return to abject crap.

[Olsingledigit]

The Butler way:

A couple of magical years and then a return to abject crap.

Never was quite sure what "The Butler Way" was anyway, but I do agree that Stevens leaving was likely the biggest problem. I guess even smart basketball people can make a mistake. Not saying Butler won't be back to respectability, but it does appear that hiring Brandon Miller was a mistake that will set them back for some time.

[RealDeal]

Not that I really care, but I wonder if this releases his recruits for this year.

[Juice]

Not that I really care, but I wonder if this releases his recruits for this year.

If they wanted out because of this, it's pretty bullshit if they don't allow them to go.

[PMI]

I'm not sure I completely agree with that line of logic. One of the reasons the AAC got multiple bids last year was the fact that there was a clear separation between the haves and have-nots of that league. The top teams (UC, UofL, UConn, Memphis, SMU) were able to beat up the bottom-feeders pretty effectively.

The Big East cannibalized itself during the regular season because of parity. Butler and DePaul are about as close to a gimmie during conference play as you'll find. Look at what Seton Hall (8th place team) did to Xavier and also to Villanova during the Big East tournament.

The old Big East "cannibalized" itself and made up seemingly half the field mot years. Parity is nota problem, it's actually exactly what all the best conferences want. It's a problem when the teams don't win their out of conference games. Seton Hall beating X was a problem because Seton Hall wasn't good, not because the Big East had too much parity. The AAC got multiple bids last year because the teams that got in were worthy of getting in based on their full years' resumes. SMU was one of the top teams in the conference and did not get in. Do you think having to play (and occasionally lose) to all those AAC shit eaters helped them? With this attitude, we might as well have stayed in the A10.


Butler will be fine. They didn't get an invite based on Stevens alone. Come on, they had two final 4's in the last 5 years. They've hit a bump in the road.

I'm glad you are that confident but I am not. They basically DID get an invite because of Stevens' teams alone. They sure didn't get an invite because of the small time Horizon League show they run. I'm well aware of the two Final Fours. Stevens was there for those, and those were his teams. I don't see it as them hitting a bump in the road. I think it's much more accurate to say they've come back down to earth and are back at the level that a program like that should be at. The Final Fours are ancient history now. Those guys are all gone. Take those out of the picture, and you have a program that doesn't invest the way the rest of the teams do in a little gym with bad facilities and an unimpressive fan base. That's what they are.


Can't you pretty much say that about any school in the conference other than Georgetown, Nova, and maybe Marquette?

Arguably, although I would not argue that. But what does that matter? The other schools in the Big East were already aligned. It's not like we could have said, "let's keep Georgetown, Marquette and Villanova, and drop the rest of these teams." They did, however, have the opportunity to invite whoever they wanted to the new conference. They decided on nine Catholic schools and a small time program from Indiana that caught historically rare lighting in a bottle, and were one non-grand-slam coaching hire away from going right back to what they truly are. I'm not saying they're the worst program in the world or anything, but a must-add for the Big East? Absolutely not. There were other programs that would have been much better, if the goal is what I think it should be (to build the best possible basketball conference you can.)


Okay, say Murray State had held on to beat Butler in 2010 (I have a soft spot for Murray, and that game still kind of bugs me), and Pitt had beaten them in in 2011. They go out well before the Final Four both times. Butler would still be far more accomplished than any other Big East candidate with a longer sustained period of success than anyone else.

Butler finished in the top 25 for three straight years before they made their first Final Four run. They were consistently safely inside the bubble, and had been to two Sweet Sixteens prior to that as well. They weren't George Mason. They didn't go from constantly being way outside the NIT, to the Final Four, and then back into obscurity just a year later. Butler had been around for awhile, and had been good for awhile. They had gone through coaching changes, and remained solid prior to anyone even knowing who Brad Stevens was.

When you hire Barry Collier, and replace him with Thad Matta, and replace him with Todd Lickliter, and replace him with Brad Stevens, that's a sign that it's the program and not the coach that is solid. No one remembers this, but when Lickliter left everyone said Butler was done. When they were good Stevens's first year, everyone said it was because he did it with Lickliter's players. No one really seemed to think Stevens was all that great until his last year there.

I am well aware of Butler's recent history, Brew. I am not denying how impressive those accomplishments are. I am more interested in looking forward, as the league should have done a couple years ago. The Big East formed with the goal in mind to stay relevant as a MAJOR college basketball conference. Sorry, but Butler does not do things the way major conferences do. Not even close. I'm a little concerned with Creighton going forward too, but at least they invest and have the support in their program. Butler is in danger of becoming Fordham in my opinion. I think it reasonably could have been predicted during a time where they were searching, and there were a lot of much better long term candidates to build a top notch basketball league. We can all hate on them all we want, but dayton would have been a better addition in terms of getting basketball schools together. VCU was a no brainer. Saint Louis would have been better. There are others too. All I'm saying is that nobody should be surprised when Butler is winning 12 games a year because they do not commit to basketball financially, recruit, or have the support from the fans, the way the top programs do.

[vee4xu]

I am well aware of Butler's recent history, Brew. I am not denying how impressive those accomplishments are. I am more interested in looking forward, as the league should have done a couple years ago. The Big East formed with the goal in mind to stay relevant as a MAJOR college basketball conference. Sorry, but Butler does not do things the way major conferences do. Not even close. I'm a little concerned with Creighton going forward too, but at least they invest and have the support in their program. Butler is in danger of becoming Fordham in my opinion. I think it reasonably could have been predicted during a time where they were searching, and there were a lot of much better long term candidates to build a top notch basketball league. We can all hate on them all we want, but dayton would have been a better addition in terms of getting basketball schools together. VCU was a no brainer. Saint Louis would have been better. There are others too. All I'm saying is that nobody should be surprised when Butler is winning 12 games a year because they do not commit to basketball financially, recruit, or have the support from the fans, the way the top programs do.

================================================== ================================================== ====

I am solidly in the same camp, especially based on the bolded areas above. Butler played and beat up Cleveland State, Wright State, Wisconsin-Green Bay, et al. Granted, they won enough twice in the NCAA tournament to make it to the Final Four. Credit due, credit given. But, George Mason did likewise and to a large degree you can throw Wichita State in there too. Teams that come from back in the field to finish in the Win, Place or Show slots are a warm fuzzy story, but it doesn't mean sustainability or warrant legitimacy. Butler is a nice little program that will for sure be the Big East's doormat for the near term and as PMI suggests may be that forever.

[xudash]

I am well aware of Butler's recent history, Brew. I am not denying how impressive those accomplishments are. I am more interested in looking forward, as the league should have done a couple years ago. The Big East formed with the goal in mind to stay relevant as a MAJOR college basketball conference. Sorry, but Butler does not do things the way major conferences do. Not even close. I'm a little concerned with Creighton going forward too, but at least they invest and have the support in their program. Butler is in danger of becoming Fordham in my opinion. I think it reasonably could have been predicted during a time where they were searching, and there were a lot of much better long term candidates to build a top notch basketball league. We can all hate on them all we want, but dayton would have been a better addition in terms of getting basketball schools together. VCU was a no brainer. Saint Louis would have been better. There are others too. All I'm saying is that nobody should be surprised when Butler is winning 12 games a year because they do not commit to basketball financially, recruit, or have the support from the fans, the way the top programs do.

================================================== ================================================== ====

I am solidly in the same camp, especially based on the bolded areas above. Butler played and beat up Cleveland State, Wright State, Wisconsin-Green Bay, et al. Granted, they won enough twice in the NCAA tournament to make it to the Final Four. Credit due, credit given. But, George Mason did likewise and to a large degree you can throw Wichita State in there too. Teams that come from back in the field to finish in the Win, Place or Show slots are a warm fuzzy story, but it doesn't mean sustainability or warrant legitimacy. Butler is a nice little program that will for sure be the Big East's doormat for the near term and as PMI suggests may be that forever.

I am firmly in this camp as well.

I want to see how Butler makes the transition to the Big East with respect to its recruiting philosophy. This system approach that it has relied on for years worked fine in the Horizon League. Assuming Butler intends to stick to it rather strictly, I don't see them having much success in the Big East; they simply will not be athletic enough.

There is a Butler fan on the HolyLand site who is claiming that Butler has been able to retain its "prized" recruit. He is an Indiana kid who otherwise has offers from Indiana State, Illinois State and New Orleans.

We are similar schools with respect to student body sizes and probably alumni bases. Yet I see three significant advantages for Xavier: the Cintas Center, the fact that we have absolutely no funding of any kind going towards supporting a football program, and a stronger overall fan base. The Cintas Center is a key advantage economically, though I happen to like it much more than Hinkle Fieldhouse on an anesthetic basis as well, but to each their own. It's simply set up to drive serious revenue to the program. Our fan base has grown significantly overtime to support that platform.

Respecting that Butler was limited in what it could do with Hinkle with respect to its renovation, it actually took its capacity down. I also agree with the point about Butler's culture: is it still operating with somewhat of an Horizon mentality? We will know more about all of this moving forward as we watch the recruiting results.

Could Butler become the Fordham of the Big East? That would happen because of the competitive nature of the conference, not because of Butler's leadership. Fordham's leadership was and probably still is three sheets to the wind when it comes to understanding the value of athletics. Butler does not have that problem. Butler's problem now is that it woke up one day and found itself in a conference that no longer has names like Youngstown State, Valparaiso and Loyola comprising it.

[bleedXblue]

originally posted by PMI.
I'm glad you are that confident but I am not. They basically DID get an invite because of Stevens' teams alone. They sure didn't get an invite because of the small time Horizon League show they run. I'm well aware of the two Final Fours. Stevens was there for those, and those were his teams. I don't see it as them hitting a bump in the road. I think it's much more accurate to say they've come back down to earth and are back at the level that a program like that should be at. The Final Fours are ancient history now. Those guys are all gone. Take those out of the picture, and you have a program that doesn't invest the way the rest of the teams do in a little gym with bad facilities and an unimpressive fan base. That's what they are.



Our program would kill to have two Final 4's.....hell we'd take just one. Our program hasn't done anything in 3 years. It's pretty damn easy to sit back and say.......well take all of their accomplishments away and what do they have left? Just an incredibly biased point of view that ends up making you look pretty foolish. No one and I mean no one expects Butler to keep chalking up Final 4's. Yes, their facilities aren't where they need to be and maybe they don't have the fan base we do, but they are a household name now in college basketball and will get back to respectability in no time. They lost a good coach and had a pretty significant injury last year. Now they may lose another coach. Yes, some bad luck.

A disclaimer here. I don't particularly like Butler or their arrogant fans. But to dismiss them and their program is just stupid. They are solid and will be a steady presence in this league long term.

[danaandvictory]

Wasn't Hinkle's capacity largely aspirational in the first place? The place is all benches numbered for 1950s-width asses. The new capacity is probably closer to what the facility can actually hold in our bigger-butted times.

The bigger issue for me was no beer. What the hell?

[xubrew]

To me, this is what gives me confidence in Butler.

They went from being a middle of the pack team in a weak league, to being one of the better teams in a weak league where they made the tournament via the automatic bid, to being good enough to get in as an at-large, to being a team that we saw in the rankings and in the tournament fairly regularly. They had made that ascent before Stevens even got there.

If you look at the teams that have gone from crappy to good and actually managed to stay good (San Diego State, Kansas State (at least to a point) VCU, Gonzaga, and even Xavier, they all seem to share that characteristic. It's as if they sustained their success while improving incrementally. As far as the long term health of their program, Butler's back to back title game appearances don't impress me as much as how they incrementally kept improving over time.

George Mason was a flash in the pan. As was the Georgia Tech team that made the finals in 2004, and the LSU team that made the finals in 2006, as was Drake the year they were media darlings, as was Washington State in the Tony Bennett years. Those teams, for the most part, were only good because they had a very good coach (with the exception of Georgia Tech) who recruited good players despite their programs, not because of it, and it was very short lived.

When a program has sustained improvement and success for a period of time as long as Butler has, that's generally a sign that they're not going away. People on this board have been saying Butler's party was over for at least four years now. Others were saying it was over in 2000 when after they had made three NCAA Tournaments in four years and Barry Collier left. Yet, they've been able to remain relevant. I think that will continue. They are in a much better position to attract a proven coach than they have ever been before. I don't expect them to be going back to the Final Four anytime soon, but I do think they'll remain competitive and relevant and be in the NCAA Tournament more often than not.

[XU 87]

Butler is gong to have to raise their recruiting. They can't keep stealing recruits from Wright State and Bowling Green. They are going to have to start going after, and getting, some top 100/150 players.

[PMI]

originally posted by PMI.
I'm glad you are that confident but I am not. They basically DID get an invite because of Stevens' teams alone. They sure didn't get an invite because of the small time Horizon League show they run. I'm well aware of the two Final Fours. Stevens was there for those, and those were his teams. I don't see it as them hitting a bump in the road. I think it's much more accurate to say they've come back down to earth and are back at the level that a program like that should be at. The Final Fours are ancient history now. Those guys are all gone. Take those out of the picture, and you have a program that doesn't invest the way the rest of the teams do in a little gym with bad facilities and an unimpressive fan base. That's what they are.



Our program would kill to have two Final 4's.....hell we'd take just one. Our program hasn't done anything in 3 years. It's pretty damn easy to sit back and say.......well take all of their accomplishments away and what do they have left? Just an incredibly biased point of view that ends up making you look pretty foolish. No one and I mean no one expects Butler to keep chalking up Final 4's. Yes, their facilities aren't where they need to be and maybe they don't have the fan base we do, but they are a household name now in college basketball and will get back to respectability in no time. They lost a good coach and had a pretty significant injury last year. Now they may lose another coach. Yes, some bad luck.

A disclaimer here. I don't particularly like Butler or their arrogant fans. But to dismiss them and their program is just stupid. They are solid and will be a steady presence in this league long term.

You are just changing the subject here and making assumptions that I did not suggest. Yea, of course our program would love to have two Final Fours. I'm not sitting back and saying anything from the standpoint of hating on Butler. In fact, I thought I made it pretty clear that I'm not trying to focus on the past here, ala dayton, and rather looking at the present state and foreseeable future of the program that was apparently a must-add to the Big East. You say it is stupid to dismiss them (which I would argue I'm not really doing at all.) I say it's stupid to assume they are perfectly fine and will be able to return to being a great program, when common logic seems to be screaming otherwise. They do not conduct themselves like a major basketball program, period. Whereas you say the've had some bad luck, I'd argue that luck has little to do with what's happening. They have become the type of program they conduct themselves as, and commit to being. Old gym, poor facilities, poor fan support, awful recruiting, a disaster coaching situation and a weak Big East roster currently. In my opinion, that's not all cause for saying, "relax, they will be fine." The Butler Way is not enough to make up for running a mid-major basketball program in a major conference, and I've had that fear since they joined the discussion of being added to our conferences, not just now that it's actually panning out the way I feared it would. So yea, our program would kill to have two Final Four's. You won't get any argument from me there. Unfortunately, that means nothing in regards to the reality of the state of Butler's program, which can't just rely on magic at this point.

[xubrew]

I said this earlier, but I think Butler's coaching situation has actually upgraded. I know the Big East is a different animal than the Big South, but he did an awesome job. They went from eight wins to winning the division in just three years, and he was getting interest from other schools. I didn't understand why he left to go to Butler to be an assistant. It seems to me like the head coach at Gardner Webb is the kind of job a Butler assistant would leave for, not the other way around.

He's really good, though. This is interesting. Say Butler has a decent year, and Miller's health improves. What then??

[xubrew]

I do agree with one thing. This isn't how major programs typically operate. Then again, it isn't really how anyone typically operates. I thought this was very strange at the time, and still do. Why did Holtmann leave Gardner Webb?? It could seemingly work out very well for him, but I don't think he knew at the time Miller would resign due to health issues after one year.

If I were a conspiracy theorist like some people, I'd be questioning whether or not Butler hired Miller as a trial run, and hired Holtmann as the backup plan if it didn't work out. It's a good thing I'm not a conspiracy theorist.

http://www.xavierhoops.com/showthread.php?25580-Chris-Holtmann-Leaves-Gardner-Webb-to-Join-Butler-s-Staff

[bleedXblue]

You are just changing the subject here and making assumptions that I did not suggest. Yea, of course our program would love to have two Final Fours. I'm not sitting back and saying anything from the standpoint of hating on Butler. In fact, I thought I made it pretty clear that I'm not trying to focus on the past here, ala dayton, and rather looking at the present state and foreseeable future of the program that was apparently a must-add to the Big East. You say it is stupid to dismiss them (which I would argue I'm not really doing at all.) I say it's stupid to assume they are perfectly fine and will be able to return to being a great program, when common logic seems to be screaming otherwise. They do not conduct themselves like a major basketball program, period. Whereas you say the've had some bad luck, I'd argue that luck has little to do with what's happening. They have become the type of program they conduct themselves as, and commit to being. Old gym, poor facilities, poor fan support, awful recruiting, a disaster coaching situation and a weak Big East roster currently. In my opinion, that's not all cause for saying, "relax, they will be fine." The Butler Way is not enough to make up for running a mid-major basketball program in a major conference, and I've had that fear since they joined the discussion of being added to our conferences, not just now that it's actually panning out the way I feared it would. So yea, our program would kill to have two Final Four's. You won't get any argument from me there. Unfortunately, that means nothing in regards to the reality of the state of Butler's program, which can't just rely on magic at this point.

They're picked to finish right behind us this year (4th). They've been thriving with their crappy facility and weak fan base for years. They haven't attracted major talent and have been winning with their formula for years. I honestly don't know where you're going with this? I suggest the last 20 years are a pretty good basis for supporting my argument. You have nothing other than opinion and conjecture.

[XU 87]

They're picked to finish right behind us this year (4th). They've been thriving with their crappy facility and weak fan base for years. They haven't attracted major talent and have been winning with their formula for years.

They have done this while playing in the Horizon League. I don't think they can regularly win in the Big East unless they increase their overall talent.

[GuyFawkes38]

On the Butler board right now there are 17 posts regarding Miller's LOA. If Mack had an unexpected LOA, both message boards would explode. Along with awful attendance figures, there is something troubling about fan enthusiasm at Butler.

I have no idea how Butler has been so successful with an apathetic fan base for 15 years, but I have doubts it can continue for another 15 years.

[waggy]

Actually it sounds like he took a leave of absence months ago - it's only now just being acknowledged.

[bleedXblue]

They have done this while playing in the Horizon League. I don't think they can regularly win in the Big East unless they increase their overall talent.

A lot of teams have to prove they can win regularly in the Big East. Including X.

[Irishdawg]

On the Butler board right now there are 17 posts regarding Miller's LOA. If Mack had an unexpected LOA, both message boards would explode. Along with awful attendance figures, there is something troubling about fan enthusiasm at Butler.

I have no idea how Butler has been so successful with an apathetic fan base for 15 years, but I have doubts it can continue for another 15 years.

You're clearly looking at the wrong board: http://butlerhoops.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=5

[GuyFawkes38]

You're clearly looking at the wrong board: http://butlerhoops.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=5


Yikes. Apparently I am. Thanks for the link.

[xudash]

They have done this while playing in the Horizon League. I don't think they can regularly win in the Big East unless they increase their overall talent.

Exactly.

I don't follow them that closely, but, to their credit, they have put money into Hinkle Fieldhouse now. And, to be fair, their attendance numbers to date have mostly been a function of playing in the Horizon league.

Butler was a small time, successful program that enjoyed two great back-to-back runs. No one is denying that. Otherwise, and I would have to think that this is true on the part of virtually every Xavier fan, I wouldn't trade places with Butler's program for anything. This is about PROGRAM. And it is about that now in the context of competing in the Big East.

[Irishdawg]

Yikes. Apparently I am. Thanks for the link.

No problem, feel free to come on over anytime. There's at least a couple of Xavier guys that come over and post, and hopefully they don't feel like they're treated too poorly.

I think this is a very interesting discussion, and not that they should matter on a Xavier board, but here are my thoughts as a Butler fan:

1. Butler would likely have never gotten invited to the Big East were it not for Brad Stevens. As others have stated, Butler as a program and athletic department doesn't commit the type of funds needed to sustain a typical Big East level men's basketball program. I was told during UCLA's courtship of Stevens that the Big East (mainly folks from Marquette at the time) flew in to Indianapolis to voice their concerns to Collier and gain some assurance that Stevens wasn't leaving. I doubt they would be doing that for many programs in the league, but that's just the perception that most people nationally have of the Butler program and how important they perceived Stevens to be for the school. I do think they could have gotten an A-10 invite with or without him, but it likely would have never gone beyond that.

2. Butler does need to step up its recruiting. Sean McDermott, while I think he could develop into a nice Big East player is currently the headline for the 2015 class which just won't cut it. Now a lot of that appears to be due to Miller's leave of absence that basically began after he and Nathan Fowler committed (end of May) because while Miller wasn't killing it, he was doing a solid job on the recruiting trail in the limited time that he'd been at the school. However, it's of my opinion that Butler needs at least a couple kids every year that are top 100/150 type of players to be a mid-level Big East team most years and occasionally be an upper level school. Especially when the rest of the league is landing as many as they have this past year and Marquette appears to be coming back in a big way in 2015.

3. From what I've heard, Miller's going to be out a significant amount of time, and may very well not come back at all. I actually had a similar thought as XUBrew in that I wondered if Miller was the one who really hired him, but he did work under John Groce at Ohio University who I believe was an assistant at X when Brandon was the video intern there and an assistant when Brandon was the DOBO at Ohio State as well, so there is a connection between the two. Holtmann has been a good head coach before, albeit at a much smaller conference and school, so I don't expect much of a drop off from where they would have been at under Miller. Now, recruiting-wise until this situation is resolved it will continue to hamper the Bulldogs. They may get the guys they have committed to sign, but getting others to commit, especially anyone of consequence will be very difficult. They're now essentially down an assistant and still haven't hired a DOBO to replace Dan Bere who left this summer to go to Jacksonville.

4. Lastly, I do think if the program has some stability that it can be a respectable program most years in the league. I don't expect them to win the conference most years, if ever, but I would say the same thing about really everyone but Nova, Marquette and Georgetown currently. The problem is that they've upgraded leagues the last 2 years in a row and lost their head coach the last 2 years. It'd be tough for any program to sustain much success when put into that situation, and doubly tough for a program that doesn't have the resources that the majority of the programs in the Big East do. Butler's fan base is fickle compared to Xavier and others, but they were 7th in home attendance last year and 5th in terms of % of capacity filled even in an awful year. Now I don't think that can be sustainable for a long period of time, but I don't think it's as bad as some make it seem.

Sorry for the long post, but again, you guys have brought up some good points and it's a good discussion to have.

[PMI]

They're picked to finish right behind us this year (4th). They've been thriving with their crappy facility and weak fan base for years. They haven't attracted major talent and have been winning with their formula for years. I honestly don't know where you're going with this? I suggest the last 20 years are a pretty good basis for supporting my argument. You have nothing other than opinion and conjecture.

I watched them try to win Big East games last year with lower level talent and a non-elite coach and it got very ugly. They DO NOT have the support and commitment of a high major program and they DO NOT recruit on the same level as the teams that compete in this league. These are facts, whether you agree that they mean anything or not. It is my opinion that their unlikely run of succeeding as the "underdog" caught up with them in this league, and given that they don't appear likely to make any of the serious changes towards running a major program, I don't see it changing anytime soon. This has nothing to do with sour grapes or neglecting past success. It has everything to do with taking an analytic look at the future of our league, based on the programs in it, and seeing a Horizon league program that I believe is significantly less likely to sustain success than the programs on the top tier of the league. You think you that this opinion is dismissible because of their history, and I think that's ridiculous. Even great major programs with the best everything are one bad coach away from being a doormat in tough leagues, and you don't think it can happen to Butler when they do little to help themselves stay competitive at this level. I do think it's happened to Butler and I think it was only a matter of time.

[xudash]

No problem, feel free to come on over anytime. There's at least a couple of Xavier guys that come over and post, and hopefully they don't feel like they're treated too poorly.

I think this is a very interesting discussion, and not that they should matter on a Xavier board, but here are my thoughts as a Butler fan:

1. Butler would likely have never gotten invited to the Big East were it not for Brad Stevens. As others have stated, Butler as a program and athletic department doesn't commit the type of funds needed to sustain a typical Big East level men's basketball program. I was told during UCLA's courtship of Stevens that the Big East (mainly folks from Marquette at the time) flew in to Indianapolis to voice their concerns to Collier and gain some assurance that Stevens wasn't leaving. I doubt they would be doing that for many programs in the league, but that's just the perception that most people nationally have of the Butler program and how important they perceived Stevens to be for the school. I do think they could have gotten an A-10 invite with or without him, but it likely would have never gone beyond that.

2. Butler does need to step up its recruiting. Sean McDermott, while I think he could develop into a nice Big East player is currently the headline for the 2015 class which just won't cut it. Now a lot of that appears to be due to Miller's leave of absence that basically began after he and Nathan Fowler committed (end of May) because while Miller wasn't killing it, he was doing a solid job on the recruiting trail in the limited time that he'd been at the school. However, it's of my opinion that Butler needs at least a couple kids every year that are top 100/150 type of players to be a mid-level Big East team most years and occasionally be an upper level school. Especially when the rest of the league is landing as many as they have this past year and Marquette appears to be coming back in a big way in 2015.

3. From what I've heard, Miller's going to be out a significant amount of time, and may very well not come back at all. I actually had a similar thought as XUBrew in that I wondered if Miller was the one who really hired him, but he did work under John Groce at Ohio University who I believe was an assistant at X when Brandon was the video intern there and an assistant when Brandon was the DOBO at Ohio State as well, so there is a connection between the two. Holtmann has been a good head coach before, albeit at a much smaller conference and school, so I don't expect much of a drop off from where they would have been at under Miller. Now, recruiting-wise until this situation is resolved it will continue to hamper the Bulldogs. They may get the guys they have committed to sign, but getting others to commit, especially anyone of consequence will be very difficult. They're now essentially down an assistant and still haven't hired a DOBO to replace Dan Bere who left this summer to go to Jacksonville.

4. Lastly, I do think if the program has some stability that it can be a respectable program most years in the league. I don't expect them to win the conference most years, if ever, but I would say the same thing about really everyone but Nova, Marquette and Georgetown currently. The problem is that they've upgraded leagues the last 2 years in a row and lost their head coach the last 2 years. It'd be tough for any program to sustain much success when put into that situation, and doubly tough for a program that doesn't have the resources that the majority of the programs in the Big East do. Butler's fan base is fickle compared to Xavier and others, but they were 7th in home attendance last year and 5th in terms of % of capacity filled even in an awful year. Now I don't think that can be sustainable for a long period of time, but I don't think it's as bad as some make it seem.

Sorry for the long post, but again, you guys have brought up some good points and it's a good discussion to have.

Excellent post and insights. I believe you are looking at the situation in exactly the same way some of us are looking at it.

Frankly, I hope and believe it will get tougher for all of us, which is to suggest tougher and therefore better for all of us. Imagine Cooley staying at Providence and continuing to bring them back. Imagine Seton Hall getting stronger. Imagine Depaul with its new facility and then hopefully a new athletic administration and head coach to power them back up.

THINK BIG probably is a good catchphrase to operate by.

[PMI]

No problem, feel free to come on over anytime. There's at least a couple of Xavier guys that come over and post, and hopefully they don't feel like they're treated too poorly.

I think this is a very interesting discussion, and not that they should matter on a Xavier board, but here are my thoughts as a Butler fan:

1. Butler would likely have never gotten invited to the Big East were it not for Brad Stevens. As others have stated, Butler as a program and athletic department doesn't commit the type of funds needed to sustain a typical Big East level men's basketball program. I was told during UCLA's courtship of Stevens that the Big East (mainly folks from Marquette at the time) flew in to Indianapolis to voice their concerns to Collier and gain some assurance that Stevens wasn't leaving. I doubt they would be doing that for many programs in the league, but that's just the perception that most people nationally have of the Butler program and how important they perceived Stevens to be for the school. I do think they could have gotten an A-10 invite with or without him, but it likely would have never gone beyond that.

2. Butler does need to step up its recruiting. Sean McDermott, while I think he could develop into a nice Big East player is currently the headline for the 2015 class which just won't cut it. Now a lot of that appears to be due to Miller's leave of absence that basically began after he and Nathan Fowler committed (end of May) because while Miller wasn't killing it, he was doing a solid job on the recruiting trail in the limited time that he'd been at the school. However, it's of my opinion that Butler needs at least a couple kids every year that are top 100/150 type of players to be a mid-level Big East team most years and occasionally be an upper level school. Especially when the rest of the league is landing as many as they have this past year and Marquette appears to be coming back in a big way in 2015.

3. From what I've heard, Miller's going to be out a significant amount of time, and may very well not come back at all. I actually had a similar thought as XUBrew in that I wondered if Miller was the one who really hired him, but he did work under John Groce at Ohio University who I believe was an assistant at X when Brandon was the video intern there and an assistant when Brandon was the DOBO at Ohio State as well, so there is a connection between the two. Holtmann has been a good head coach before, albeit at a much smaller conference and school, so I don't expect much of a drop off from where they would have been at under Miller. Now, recruiting-wise until this situation is resolved it will continue to hamper the Bulldogs. They may get the guys they have committed to sign, but getting others to commit, especially anyone of consequence will be very difficult. They're now essentially down an assistant and still haven't hired a DOBO to replace Dan Bere who left this summer to go to Jacksonville.

4. Lastly, I do think if the program has some stability that it can be a respectable program most years in the league. I don't expect them to win the conference most years, if ever, but I would say the same thing about really everyone but Nova, Marquette and Georgetown currently. The problem is that they've upgraded leagues the last 2 years in a row and lost their head coach the last 2 years. It'd be tough for any program to sustain much success when put into that situation, and doubly tough for a program that doesn't have the resources that the majority of the programs in the Big East do. Butler's fan base is fickle compared to Xavier and others, but they were 7th in home attendance last year and 5th in terms of % of capacity filled even in an awful year. Now I don't think that can be sustainable for a long period of time, but I don't think it's as bad as some make it seem.

Sorry for the long post, but again, you guys have brought up some good points and it's a good discussion to have.

I think this is a very solid post with a lot of great points, from the perspective of someone who follows the program more closely than those here. I think the general perception here is that since Butler had such incredible runs and has typically fielded good teams, that they were automatically a no-brainer addition to the Big East and that they will almost always put a high level product on the floor. But the ACTUAL details of the situation, such as many of the ones above, paint a different picture of what we might need to expect going forward. I guess it's never out of the question that we see the inexplicable Butler magic over a long course of time, but I think it's unlikely.

[bleedXblue]

Butler looked just fine today. Yes, one game. But to dismiss them like A LOT of posters have, is just plain foolish. Where they finish this year is anyone's guess. I think they have enough talent (without significant injuries) to fall somewhere between 3rd-6th.

[waggy]

Jones is one of those players that not only produces, but is a glue guy too because he does so many different things.

[D-West & PO-Z]

Jones is one of those players that not only produces, but is a glue guy too because he does so many different things.

I dont know much about Jones but that description sounds like a Justin Cage type player. Love those guys.

[xubrew]

Butler has made Chris Holtmann the permanent head coach....

http://www.sacbee.com/sports/college/mens-basketball/article5344011.html

[paulxu]

From Gardner Webb to the BE in one year is a helluva leap.

[waggy]

So far impressed with Holtmann.

[xubrew]

From Gardner Webb to the BE in one year is a helluva leap.

He went from a five win Gardner Webb team to Butler in a four year period.

[Masterofreality]

Sounds like old Brandon was cashiered out the door...as soon as possible.

[LA Muskie]

I can't help but think there's more to this story.

[X-band '01]

Sounds like old Brandon was cashiered out the door...as soon as possible.

Considering that Miller was on leave for health reasons, maybe the maximum leave time permitted under the Family Medical Leave Act expired. This forced Butler's hand, but I have a feeling they were more confident with Holtmann and how he's performed as compared to Miller.

[LA Muskie]

Considering that Miller was on leave for health reasons, maybe the maximum leave time permitted under the Family Medical Leave Act expired. This forced Butler's hand, but I have a feeling they were more confident with Holtmann and how he's performed as compared to Miller.

It didn't force Butler's hand. An employer can voluntarily extend medical leave for as long as it wants. FMLA (and state law equivalents) merely set the minimum.

Edit: See, e.g., how UC is handling Cronin's health issues.

[danaandvictory]

Yeah, if they wanted to keep Miller around, they could have found a way. Obviously Butler wanted him gone, they just needed to wait the necessary period to duck a lawsuit.

[xubrew]

I can't help but think there's more to this story.

I agree.

I don't mean to sound like a broken record, but why did Chris Holtmann go to Butler to be an assistant?? It made absolutely no sense. Now, if he knew it would work out like it did, then it would make sense, which is why I can't help but wonder if there is more to this story.

....and if there is more to this story, why didn't they just hire Chris Holtmann to be the head coach in the first place?? It would have made more sense. He was far more accomplished, and far more qualified. You can say hindsight is 20/20, but people were saying that when they initially hired Miller and not Holtmann to be the head guy.

[bleedXblue]

I agree.

I don't mean to sound like a broken record, but why did Chris Holtmann go to Butler to be an assistant?? It made absolutely no sense. Now, if he knew it would work out like it did, then it would make sense, which is why I can't help but wonder if there is more to this story.

....and if there is more to this story, why didn't they just hire Chris Holtmann to be the head coach in the first place?? It would have made more sense. He was far more accomplished, and far more qualified. You can say hindsight is 20/20, but people were saying that when they initially hired Miller and not Holtmann to be the head guy.

This.

Pretty sure this was all planned when they brought Holtmann on board.

They knew something was up with Miller.

[waggy]

It might have been nothing more than wanting to give a shot to an alum, and Holtmann was just an insurance policy.

Now why Holtmann would go from head man at Gardner Webb to assist at Butler, no idea. But there could be various plausible reasons.

[sirthought]

I agree.

I don't mean to sound like a broken record, but why did Chris Holtmann go to Butler to be an assistant?? It made absolutely no sense. Now, if he knew it would work out like it did, then it would make sense, which is why I can't help but wonder if there is more to this story.

....and if there is more to this story, why didn't they just hire Chris Holtmann to be the head coach in the first place?? It would have made more sense. He was far more accomplished, and far more qualified. You can say hindsight is 20/20, but people were saying that when they initially hired Miller and not Holtmann to be the head guy.

You may be right with this, but there are lots of examples of the same thing happening at other schools. Even when UC hired Mick Cronin, Larry Davis had more experience as a head coach than Cronin did, which is why Cronin wanted him there...to get an experienced leader from a smaller program to help balance him out.

[sirthought]

Did anyone ever state the medical reason for Miller needing to leave?

[LA Muskie]

Did anyone ever state the medical reason for Miller needing to leave?

No. Butler is citing privacy. Miller, by most accounts, has dropped from the face of the earth. I don't know him and I don't want to spread or start rumors, but I have my suspicions that it is a medical condition that carries into personal/professional relationships.

[danaandvictory]

It might have been nothing more than wanting to give a shot to an alum, and Holtmann was just an insurance policy.

Now why Holtmann would go from head man at Gardner Webb to assist at Butler, no idea. But there could be various plausible reasons.

Dane Fife gave up the head coaching job at IPFW (where he was actually doing a really nice job) to go sit next to Tom Izzo. I think there's probably situations where being in the 2nd chair at a good program is better than HC at a low major.

[xubrew]

Dane Fife gave up the head coaching job at IPFW (where he was actually doing a really nice job) to go sit next to Tom Izzo. I think there's probably situations where being in the 2nd chair at a good program is better than HC at a low major.

True, but Dane Fife wasn't getting the kind of interest that Chris Holtmann was getting.

[Nildogg]

No. Butler is citing privacy. Miller, by most accounts, has dropped from the face of the earth. I don't know him and I don't want to spread or start rumors, but I have my suspicions that it is a medical condition that carries into personal/professional relationships.

False. Completely.

[bleedXblue]

False. Completely.

Please elaborate then?

[Nildogg]

Please elaborate then?

False, concerning the bleeding into personal/professional relationships thing. That is if the credible info that is floating out there is true.

[danaandvictory]

True, but Dane Fife wasn't getting the kind of interest that Chris Holtmann was getting.

I had never heard Holtmann's name before he went to Butler but that's probably more a referendum on me. I know Gardner-Webb had won at Rupp because I remember cackling for a solid 30 seconds.

[GoMuskies]

It's hard to even believe the Billy Gillispie era at Kentucky actually happened.

[LA Muskie]

False, concerning the bleeding into personal/professional relationships thing. That is if the credible info that is floating out there is true.

Like I said, I don't know. It's just conjecture on my part. I haven't heard any info -- much less of the credible variety. What are you hearing?

[SM#24]

False, concerning the bleeding into personal/professional relationships thing. That is if the credible info that is floating out there is true.
If there is "credible" info floating out there, just float it here so we do not have to randomly speculate.