John Thompson III discusses Autonomy

[Muskie]

Link (http://collegebasketballtalk.nbcsports.com/2014/08/27/georgetowns-john-thompson-iii-on-autonomy-whatever-they-do-we-will-do-100-across-the-board/)

With the changes in the NCAA’s governing structure that will provide the Power 5 programs with autonomy, one of the biggest concerns for fans of programs outside of ACC, Big 12, Big Ten, Pac-12 and SEC is that they will be left in the dust, that they’re going to be an afterthought as players migrate towards the schools that have bigger budgets and high profile football.
I’ve already tried to quell the fears of those fans (http://collegebasketballtalk.nbcsports.com/2014/08/07/what-does-the-new-division-i-power-structure-mean-for-college-hoops/), but if my word wasn’t strong enough, maybe Georgetown head coach John Thompson III’s will be.
“I’m here to say that wherever they float off to as it relates to men’s basketball, we’re floating too,” Thompson told CSNWashington.com (http://www.csnwashington.com/ncaa/jtiii-georgetown-will-keep-pace-power-5-programs). “Whatever changes come down the pike, we care just as much about the student-athlete’s overall experience as they do. Whatever changes come up, no matter what they are, we will follow as it relates to men’s basketball.”

[Muskie]

Things are about to get interesting in College Basketball.

[muskienick]

If P5 football goes rogue and takes at least their other money-ball with them (i.e. Basketball), I would think that they would be pleased to invite non-football (FBS), basketball power conferences to join them (Big East, A-10, Colonial, MVC, and WCC) in a defection from the NCAA. Everybody gets together to rewrite the rules and those that are scared off remain with the NCAA. I would imagine that the Big East would be a certainty to go BIG. The A-10 and WCC might not be too far behind in becoming part of the party.

Do the P5 have the guts to make the move away from "March Madness" and create something that could be even better? If there is such a move, I agree with JTIII that the Big East will be there with them.

[Muskie]

I agree with that. But how does an institution like X compete financially in this "new" system?

[bleedXblue]

I agree with that. But how does an institution like X compete financially in this "new" system?

Exactly. This whole thing is going to get f'd up beyond repair. The system was working fine.

[Muskie]

I wonder if the P5 will put a cap on stipends and things like that? Surely they'd have too?

[xubrew]

If P5 football goes rogue and takes at least their other money-ball with them (i.e. Basketball), I would think that they would be pleased to invite non-football (FBS), basketball power conferences to join them (Big East, A-10, Colonial, MVC, and WCC) in a defection from the NCAA. Everybody gets together to rewrite the rules and those that are scared off remain with the NCAA. I would imagine that the Big East would be a certainty to go BIG. The A-10 and WCC might not be too far behind in becoming part of the party.

Do the P5 have the guts to make the move away from "March Madness" and create something that could be even better? If there is such a move, I agree with JTIII that the Big East will be there with them.

I doubt it. JTIII says they'll follow the Power Five. Okay. Georgetown, and everyone else, didn't follow Syracuse, Pitt, West Virginia, Louisville, and everybody else that just left the non football Big East schools. What is it that makes him think that the power conferences want him along??

[Milhouse]

The flying family members to tournaments and such has to get incredibly expensive especially at the FBS level when there are 150+ parents to be flown in for a game...

[xubrew]

Exactly. This whole thing is going to get f'd up beyond repair. The system was working fine.

If it were working fine, then it wouldn't have broke. One of the biggest reasons things have ended up this way is because of the NCAA's insistence that everything was fine and that nothing needed to change. Kinda like this guy....

1482

Yes, it is broken beyond repair. They had a chance to fix it. Several, actually. And, they didn't, because they just wanted to pretend that everything was fine.

[hoyahooligan]

I doubt it. JTIII says they'll follow the Power Five. Okay. Georgetown, and everyone else, didn't follow Syracuse, Pitt, West Virginia, Louisville, and everybody else that just left the non football Big East schools. What is it that makes him think that the power conferences want him along??

I think it's unlikely that the Power 5 completely break off from everyone and don't include anyone besides their own teams to play with them in all sports. It's not sustainable. Especially in non revenue sports. For instance only the ACC, B10, and P12 have men's soccer you can't just have 3 conferences for a sport. They'll have to include other leagues for certain sports and the other conferences aren't going to be like ok we'll play you in soccer and it's ok that you cut us out for basketball. You play too many games in Basketball for them just to have 5 conferences, they'll need other conferences especially for gimmie games, you can't play only power conference teams, that's nuts.

[xubrew]

I agree that they won't break off, because now there is no reason to. They have autonomy. They can make their own sets of rules and do what they want without Florida Atlantic telling them they can't.

[Muskie]

I think it's unlikely that the Power 5 completely break off from everyone and don't include anyone besides their own teams to play with them in all sports. It's not sustainable. Especially in non revenue sports. For instance only the ACC, B10, and P12 have men's soccer you can't just have 3 conferences for a sport. They'll have to include other leagues for certain sports and the other conferences aren't going to be like ok we'll play you in soccer and it's ok that you cut us out for basketball. You play too many games in Basketball for them just to have 5 conferences, they'll need other conferences especially for gimmie games, you can't play only power conference teams, that's nuts.

Right, but think of the potential competitive disadvantage between a school who gets the very best (thanks to a hypothetical $10,000 per year stipend) and a school that is not in the P5 and cannot.

It's like a FBS squad playing a FCS squad... only worse.

[muskienick]

I agree with that. But how does an institution like X compete financially in this "new" system?

Forbes has the Xavier Basketball Program as one of the most financially successful in the nation (#17, I think).

[GoMuskies]

Forbes has the Xavier Basketball Program as one of the most financially successful in the nation (#17, I think).

The basketball money isn't going to be the problem. It's the football money that will spill over into basketball that will be the issue.

[hoyahooligan]

The basketball money isn't going to be the problem. It's the football money that will spill over into basketball that will be the issue.

But will it spill over? Most Football programs operate in the Red as it is. I don't think there's going to be a lot of money left over from paying all the football players to splash significant amounts to basketball that we cannot match. It's going to make a difference in football, but I don't see it making a big difference in basketball.

Another place it may make an impact is women's non revenue sports. Assuming Title IX gets enforced on this they may have to pay women athletes the same as men so will have to balance all that football money on the women's side. That's the only potential issue I see with all this. Basketball won't be an issue.

[xubrew]

Nick, to put it as simply as I can, I just don't see why the power conference schools who have never wanted anything to do with the non-power conferences before, and have even resented the non-power schools because of the restraints they felt were being put on them, would suddenly want to "invite" a lot of the non-power schools to come with them.

Members of the AAC, CUSA, Big East, and others seem convinced that if there ever is a split that the power conferences will most certainly want them along. They won't. They never cared about us before, and they won't care about us if they leave. Hell, most of them worked really hard to disassociate themselves with the non-power conferences.

Having said, that I don't think they will leave because, like I said earlier, there really isn't any reason to. They can make their own rules now without any regard for anyone else, so there isn't much point to breaking off.

[xubrew]

But will it spill over? Most Football programs operate in the Red as it is. I don't think there's going to be a lot of money left over from paying all the football players to splash significant amounts to basketball that we cannot match. It's going to make a difference in football, but I don't see it making a big difference in basketball.

Another place it may make an impact is women's non revenue sports. Assuming Title IX gets enforced on this they may have to pay women athletes the same as men so will have to balance all that football money on the women's side. That's the only potential issue I see with all this. Basketball won't be an issue.

Say Georgetown and Xavier they want to pay stipends to basketball players that equals what the power conferences are paying.

Who is going to permit them to do it??

Autonomy is just that. They can make their own sets of rules that do not necessarily apply to everyone else. Are you a little concerned that the OVC, and the America East, and the CAA, and the WAC, and the Horizon League, and all of these other leagues that have ALWAYS voted against paying stipends will continue to vote against it, and ultimately prevent the non-power teams who want to pay them from being able to do it??

Maybe they won't, but there is no guarantee (at least that I've seen) that officially states that those who are outside the power conferences will also be able to make their own rules. It's been speculated, but not officially stated.

[hoyahooligan]

Say Georgetown and Xavier they want to pay stipends to basketball players that equals what the power conferences are paying.

Who is going to permit them to do it??

Autonomy is just that. They can make their own sets of rules that do not necessarily apply to everyone else. Are you a little concerned that the OVC, and the America East, and the CAA, and the WAC, and the Horizon League, and all of these other leagues that have ALWAYS voted against paying stipends will continue to vote against it, and ultimately prevent the non-power teams who want to pay them from being able to do it??

Maybe they won't, but there is no guarantee (at least that I've seen) that officially states that those who are outside the power conferences will also be able to make their own rules. It's been speculated, but not officially stated.

I would answer who's going to stop them? Everything I've read is that schools will be allowed to adopt anything that the P5 adopts they just won't be forced to adopt things that the P5 adopt and can't block the P5 from adopting them. Maybe I'm wrong, but everything out of the BE and the coaches mouths has said we will match what they P5 do, so I assume there's nothing stopping them from doing it.

[LA Muskie]

Say Georgetown and Xavier they want to pay stipends to basketball players that equals what the power conferences are paying.

Who is going to permit them to do it??

Autonomy is just that. They can make their own sets of rules that do not necessarily apply to everyone else. Are you a little concerned that the OVC, and the America East, and the CAA, and the WAC, and the Horizon League, and all of these other leagues that have ALWAYS voted against paying stipends will continue to vote against it, and ultimately prevent the non-power teams who want to pay them from being able to do it??

Maybe they won't, but there is no guarantee (at least that I've seen) that officially states that those who are outside the power conferences will also be able to make their own rules. It's been speculated, but not officially stated.
My recollection is that it was specifically stated. I believe a condition of the new rules was that any other conference could elect to adopt the same rules. I could be wrong about that, but I'm pretty sure I'm right. I'm also pretty sure the quiet (unofficial) message from the Big East is that they will match whatever the FBS schools do.

Edit: Attached is a Banners on the Parkway blog (http://www.bannersontheparkway.com/2014/8/12/5995565/big-east-follow-power-five-autonomy-xavier) post on this topic.

[xubrew]

My recollection is that it was specifically stated. I believe a condition of the new rules was that any other conference could elect to adopt the same rules. I could be wrong about that, but I'm pretty sure I'm right. I'm also pretty sure the quiet (unofficial) message from the Big East is that they will match whatever the FBS schools do.

Edit: Attached is a Banners on the Parkway blog (http://www.bannersontheparkway.com/2014/8/12/5995565/big-east-follow-power-five-autonomy-xavier) post on this topic.

Thanks for posting that, but I'm still wondering if conferences will have that kind of freedom. It's one thing for the Big East and AAC to say they're going to keep up. I'm sure they would like to. They may even intend to. But, what I'm not seeing is anything within the new NCAA governing structure that would allow conferences to make that kind of decision on their own.

The board of directors is now at 25, and the counsel is now at 40. If I'm reading this right, the only conferences that have the right to operate outside of the board of directors are the five power conferences. If three of the five power conferences agree on a rule change, or a new rule, then they can implement it for themselves and only themselves.

It does not say that that other conferences will not be permitted to follow them if they want to, but it also does not say that they will be permitted. It looks to me like they're still under the authority of the board of directors, and will not necessarily have the autonomy to implement the rules of the power five.

If you read it differently, then please point out where I'm wrong. I'm serious. I'd like to have an understanding of this. Nothing against John Thompson III< or the Big East, or Banners on the Parkway, but I do not think they are the ultimate authority on this. I'd like to hear it from the NCAA. Everyone in the Big East, AAC, CUSA and even the Sun Belt seems to think they can just follow along with what the major conferences are doing, but I'm not at all sure that is the case.

http://www.ncaa.org/about/resources/media-center/news/board-adopts-new-division-i-structure

[GoMuskies]

'brew, I know this is a dangerous question since it involves the NCAA and logic, but why on earth would the NCAA care if Western Kentucky wants to pay the same benefits as Louisville and Kentucky? If Louisville and Kentucky are paying, it's not like you're preserving the sanctity of the game by preventing WKU from paying.

[xubrew]

'brew, I know this is a dangerous question since it involves the NCAA and logic, but why on earth would the NCAA care if Western Kentucky wants to pay the same benefits as Louisville and Kentucky? If Louisville and Kentucky are paying, it's not like you're preserving the sanctity of the game by preventing WKU from paying.

My answer is that they shouldn't care. In fact, I don't think it is the league office cares one way or the other.

It was the so-called "little guys" that continued to vote down allowing player stipends time and time and time again. If the governing structure still requires the board of directors to approve paying players, then I think to suddenly assume it will be approved is assuming a lot. They never approved it before. The only reason the power conferences are going to be able to do it is because they were granted autonomy.

I could be wrong because these are kind of new waters, but it looks to me that everyone outside the power conferences would have to abide by the board of directors, so until the five non-power conference FBS members, the five FCS members, the five non football members, and the other five people on the board approve a stipend, which they have ALWAYS voted down in the past....then I'm not sure the BE will be able to pay it.

Am I wrong??

I honestly don't know. This is all brand new. It's just that everyone is assuming that the Big East can do it if they want to, but I'm not seeing that for certain, that's all.

[LA Muskie]

Thanks for posting that, but I'm still wondering if conferences will have that kind of freedom. It's one thing for the Big East and AAC to say they're going to keep up. I'm sure they would like to. They may even intend to. But, what I'm not seeing is anything within the new NCAA governing structure that would allow conferences to make that kind of decision on their own.

The board of directors is now at 25, and the counsel is now at 40. If I'm reading this right, the only conferences that have the right to operate outside of the board of directors are the five power conferences. If three of the five power conferences agree on a rule change, or a new rule, then they can implement it for themselves and only themselves.

It does not say that that other conferences will not be permitted to follow them if they want to, but it also does not say that they will be permitted. It looks to me like they're still under the authority of the board of directors, and will not necessarily have the autonomy to implement the rules of the power five.

If you read it differently, then please point out where I'm wrong. I'm serious. I'd like to have an understanding of this. Nothing against John Thompson III< or the Big East, or Banners on the Parkway, but I do not think they are the ultimate authority on this. I'd like to hear it from the NCAA. Everyone in the Big East, AAC, CUSA and even the Sun Belt seems to think they can just follow along with what the major conferences are doing, but I'm not at all sure that is the case.

http://www.ncaa.org/about/resources/media-center/news/board-adopts-new-division-i-structure
See p. 29 of the Recommended Governance Model as adopted:

Under this proposed governance model, autonomous legislation that is developed and adopted among these institutions and conferences may also be applied by the rest of Division I at each conference’s respective discretion, which may include delegation of such discretion to its member institutions.

[muskienick]

Say Georgetown and Xavier they want to pay stipends to basketball players that equals what the power conferences are paying.

Who is going to permit them to do it??

Autonomy is just that. They can make their own sets of rules that do not necessarily apply to everyone else. Are you a little concerned that the OVC, and the America East, and the CAA, and the WAC, and the Horizon League, and all of these other leagues that have ALWAYS voted against paying stipends will continue to vote against it, and ultimately prevent the non-power teams who want to pay them from being able to do it??

Maybe they won't, but there is no guarantee (at least that I've seen) that officially states that those who are outside the power conferences will also be able to make their own rules. It's been speculated, but not officially stated.

I thought I read a fairly recent quote by the current Big East Commissioner who said that the Big East would do whatever was necessary to maintain parity with the P5 including the permission for its members to pay stipends to their athletes.

[xubrew]

See p. 29 of the Recommended Governance Model as adopted:

Under this proposed governance model, autonomous legislation that is developed and adopted among these institutions and conferences may also be applied by the rest of Division I at each conference’s respective discretion, which may include delegation of such discretion to its member institutions.

Okay, that makes me feel better. That's what is recommended. I guess they'll vote on it in October. They normally pass what is recommended.

To go back to Go's question as to why the voting members on the board of directors would care....it's because they've always cared before. I'm guessing they don't want to pay the players (either because they feel they cannot afford it, or because they simply don't want to), and they have it in their power to prohibit everyone else from paying the players, and that's exactly what they've always done. Simple as that. They don't want to, and they don't want to be at a disadvantage, so the easiest thing for them to do is to vote it down, and that's exactly what they've always done.

I'll feel better once it's official. Well, I'll feel as good as I can feel under the circumstances. I really hate that it came to this and do not think that it had to, but I won't go into my whole spiel again. It is what it is.

[xubrew]

I thought I read a fairly recent quote by the current Big East Commissioner who said that the Big East would do whatever was necessary to maintain parity with the P5 including the permission for its members to pay stipends to their athletes.

You probably did. But, that still doesn't mean they'll be allowed to.

Having said that, if the board passes what is recommended (footnote LA Muskie) then they can. But, until that happens, it's not official.

I think they will pass it simply because that's what they normally do......but at the same time they also normally (and by normally, I mean always) vote down any sort of stipend or payment to the players. So, we'll see.

[GoMuskies]

To go back to Go's question as to why the voting members on the board of directors would care....it's because they've always cared before. I'm guessing they don't want to pay the players (either because they feel they cannot afford it, or because they simply don't want to), and they have it in their power to prohibit everyone else from paying the players, and that's exactly what they've always done. Simple as that. They don't want to, and they don't want to be at a disadvantage, so the easiest thing for them to do is to vote it down, and that's exactly what they've always done.


Yes, but the cat's out of the bag now. That logic doesn't really apply anymore unless a new division is created with separate championships.

[xubrew]

Yunno what?? screw it. It's not worth it. I'm going to become a div3 fan. It's a much better and more practical world.

[GoMuskies]

Yunno what?? screw it. It's not worth it. I'm going to become a div3 fan. It's a much better and more practical world.

And you probably could have made one of those teams!

[xubrew]

Yes, but the cat's out of the bag now. That logic doesn't really apply anymore unless a new division is created with separate championships.

You're probably right. I do think they'll approve the recommended governance model, which will basically mean the power conferences will make the rules, and then each individual conference will decide whether or not they want to keep up.

I don't think there will be a new division regardless of what happens. There may be a new subdivision in football, but that's it. Everything else will still be the bloated 350+ subdivisionless div1.

[GoMuskies]

None of this should make much difference to the low majors anyway. There's no player that Robert Morris was getting that was going to be able to go somewhere with a stipend. It may deter some players from transferring out if they can hang on and get a stipend vs. transferring and playing, though.

[paulxu]

If you are a football player, and you get a stipend to a P5 team...but are 3rd or 4th on the depth chart...maybe you decide to go to a lesser school and get to play all the time for a smaller stipend.

For basketball, will the non P5 schools lose that many players to P5 basketball schools? They don't want to sit on the bench either.

Guess what I'm saying is that after all is said and done, there might not be that much of a difference anyhow.