Rioting in STL

[X-band '01]

Specifically Ferguson, MO:

Coverage from St. Louis Post-Dispatch (http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/clean-up-calm-monday-morning-after-violent-night-in-ferguson/article_588ca269-0299-583f-b047-702a4268314b.html)

Sounds eerily similar to the race riots back in 2001; I hope the police and city leaders learned from Cincinnati's past experience to keep this from escalating any further.

[blobfan]

Including the looting.

[SemajParlor]

Here's a link for those who want to know why there is rioting. http://www.cnn.com/2014/08/11/us/missouri-ferguson-michael-brown-what-we-know/index.html?hpt=hp_t2

[waggy]

How many times do these same basic events have to replay themselves in this country? No idea who is right or is wrong in this confrontation, but I don't think it justifies more innocent people and businesses being harmed. Has the almighty leader of this country bothered to denounce rioting in just general terms?

[drudy23]

Has the almighty leader of this country bothered to denounce rioting in just general terms?

Would it matter?

[waggy]

Would it matter?


No idea. But apparently some people need instruction on the matter.

[STL_XUfan]

No idea. But apparently some people need instruction on the matter.

http://theworldonmyback.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/be-cool-dont-be-an-asshole.jpg

[waggy]

It might give you some healthy perspective for you and your family to be on the receiving end of a mob. And I'm the asshole?

Also, try to use words instead of pictographs, college boy.

[94GRAD]

It might give you some healthy perspective for you and your family to be on the receiving end of a mob. And I'm the asshole?

Also, try to use words instead of pictographs, college boy.

I think that message is directed at the rioters, not you.

[STL_XUfan]

It might give you some healthy perspective for you and your family to be on the receiving end of a mob. And I'm the asshole?

Also, try to use words instead of pictographs, college boy.

Lighten up Francis, I was just providing the commentary that the idiots doing the looting need to hear. The entire situation in Ferguson is FUBAR from all angles. Hopefully cooler heads prevail.

[waggy]

I think that message is directed at the rioters, not you.


Lighten up Francis, I was just providing the commentary that the idiots doing the looting need to hear. The entire situation in Ferguson is FUBAR from all angles. Hopefully cooler heads prevail.


You know how sensitive I am.

[Juice]

How many times do these same basic events have to replay themselves in this country? No idea who is right or is wrong in this confrontation, but I don't think it justifies more innocent people and businesses being harmed. Has the almighty leader of this country bothered to denounce rioting in just general terms?

Many people from that community have come out against the rioting. It didn't do much good.

[waggy]

Many people from that community have come out against the rioting. It didn't do much good.


Yeah, I came out against it and it didn't do much good either. But I'm not the almighty one. I just play it on this board. And I stayed at a Holiday Inn last night.

[waggy]

It's interesting that whether George Zimmerman was a racist or not was of concern to the white house, but rioting isn't.

Actually it's not interesting, it's sad.

And innocent people will get hurt because of a lack of leadership.

The real bottom line is that true division can't be achieved unless people get hurt. And that is the sick reality of where politics are in this country.

[boozehound]

It's interesting that whether George Zimmerman was a racist or not was of concern to the white house, but rioting isn't.

Actually it's not interesting, it's sad.

And innocent people will get hurt because of a lack of leadership.

The real bottom line is that true division can't be achieved unless people get hurt. And that is the sick reality of where politics are in this country.

You seem to be as partisan as anyone on this board, as evidenced by your work in this (and other) threads. I'm not sure what this last part means. It seems you want Obama to condemn the rioting as though that would make a difference. I assume he is the 'almightly one'.

In a broad sense: I watched news coverage yesterday of the relatives of the boy who was shot and killed immediately followed by footage of people smashing the window of a footlocker and running out with shoes. It cheapens the message the family of the victim is trying to make when thier community is seizing the opportunity to loot.

[STL_XUfan]

It's interesting that whether George Zimmerman was a racist or not was of concern to the white house, but rioting isn't.

Actually it's not interesting, it's sad.

And innocent people will get hurt because of a lack of leadership.

The real bottom line is that true division can't be achieved unless people get hurt. And that is the sick reality of where politics are in this country.

President Obama's statement:

"The death of Michael Brown is heartbreaking, and Michelle and I send our deepest condolences to his family and his community at this very difficult time.


"As Attorney General (Eric) Holder has indicated, the Department of Justice is investigating the situation along with local officials, and they will continue to direct resources to the case as needed.


"I know the events of the past few days have prompted strong passions, but as details unfold, I urge everyone in Ferguson, Missouri, and across the country, to remember this young man through reflection and understanding. We should comfort each other and talk with one another in a way that heals, not in a way that wounds. Along with our prayers, that’s what Michael and his family, and our broader American community, deserve."

[GoMuskies]

President Obama's statement:

"The death of Michael Brown is heartbreaking, and Michelle and I send our deepest condolences to his family and his community at this very difficult time.


"As Attorney General (Eric) Holder has indicated, the Department of Justice is investigating the situation along with local officials, and they will continue to direct resources to the case as needed.


"I know the events of the past few days have prompted strong passions, but as details unfold, I urge everyone in Ferguson, Missouri, and across the country, to remember this young man through reflection and understanding. We should comfort each other and talk with one another in a way that heals, not in a way that wounds. Along with our prayers, that’s what Michael and his family, and our broader American community, deserve."

A fine statement that would have been much improved if it finished with: "Oh, and stop the looting you fucking asshats."

[STL_XUfan]

A fine statement that would have been much improved if it finished with: "Oh, and stop the looting you fucking asshats."

I think all sides should close their press conferences with that statement.

[xu82]

A fine statement that would have been much improved if it finished with: "Oh, and stop the looting you fucking asshats."

Now that's the spirit!

Nothing cures moral outrage like a free pair of new kicks from the Footlocker!

[waggy]

Welcome back Boozehound!

[X-band '01]

Now that's the spirit!

Nothing cures moral outrage like a free pair of new kicks from the Footlocker!

Does remind me of one of the better comments from one of the CBS News articles - No Justice, No Peace - No Justice, New Shoes!

[NY44]

The riots are unfortunate, but not as unfortunate as the killing that caused them. They are a reaction by a black community that must feel pretty helpless as news of police brutality towards black men seemingly run more and more frequently. I assure you that this has nothing to do with getting "new kicks".

Welcome to America, where white people can go into Chipotle with automatic weapons to prove their 2nd Amendment rights and unarmed black man get shot by police.

[GoMuskies]

I assure you that this has nothing to do with getting "new kicks".


I think that for the morons who are looting it really is about getting new kicks.

[Xville]

The riots are unfortunate, but not as unfortunate as the killing that caused them. They are a reaction by a black community that must feel pretty helpless as news of police brutality towards black men seemingly run more and more frequently. I assure you that this has nothing to do with getting "new kicks".

Welcome to America, where white people can go into Chipotle with automatic weapons to prove their 2nd Amendment rights and unarmed black man get shot by police.

Wow...this is the biggest load of crap i have ever seen on this board and that is saying something. First of all...were you there that day when he got shot by police? How do you know what was going on? Just because he wasn't armed doesn't mean anything...what if he tried wrestling the police officer and to take his gun?

The riots are "unfortunate?" So since they aren't trying to get new kicks, what are they trying to prove by damaging businesses who have nothing to do with what happened...and then stealing from those same businesses? I'm sure that by stealing that tv that makes them feel that justice has been served. Also, reports have come out today that a cop had to shoot an armed masked man during these riots and that person is now in critical condition...i'm guessing that rioting was worth it.

Furthermore, the reaction by the black community...rioting isn't the reaction by the black community as a whole...the people that are rioting are the ones who are already messed up in drugs, gangs etc etc. This just gives them a great excuse. It is not a normal reaction by normal people to go rob or damage another person's property when you are upset by something.

Look I am pretty skeptical when it comes to cops and it doesn't matter if they are white, black, green or purple. They are humans just like everyone else and they make mistakes, and a lot of them seem to be on big power trips. However, neither of us know what happened that day so just shut up.

[bleedXblue]

The riots are unfortunate, but not as unfortunate as the killing that caused them. They are a reaction by a black community that must feel pretty helpless as news of police brutality towards black men seemingly run more and more frequently. I assure you that this has nothing to do with getting "new kicks".

Welcome to America, where white people can go into Chipotle with automatic weapons to prove their 2nd Amendment rights and unarmed black man get shot by police.


Man I hate this type of post. I'm not defending one side or the other. I thought the police issued a statement at one point saying he was armed? We don't know at this point if the cop was white or black. Can we wait for the facts to emerge before we start throwing the race card around?

[kyxu]

Can we wait for the facts to emerge before we start throwing the race card around?

That very likely may never happen.

[GoMuskies]

That very likely may never happen.

Even if they do emerge, unless there's an HD quality video of the melee and shooting from a perfect angle, there is going to be a large segment of people who do not believe the facts are ACTUALLY the facts anyway.

[NY44]

Here are the facts I'm concerned about: who's armed and who's not. Police should be trained and calm enough to handle people who are not armed without using deadly force. Period. They're purpose is to protect and from all accounts they didn't save anyone by killing this man.

[Frambo]

Here are the facts I'm concerned about: who's armed and who's not. Police should be trained and calm enough to handle people who are not armed without using deadly force. Period. They're purpose is to protect and from all accounts they didn't save anyone by killing this man.

unless the cop thought he was saving himself.....

[NY44]

unless the cop thought he was saving himself.....

According to Brown's friend and other eye witnesses, Brown and his friend didn't get on the sidewalk when ordered to. He continued walking, saying they were close to their destination. The officer threw open his door, hitting Brown and bouncing back onto himself. The officer grabbed him and shot him. Brown ran, stopped, put his hands up saying "I don't have a gun. Stop shooting" when he was shot dead.

According to the Officer, one boy shoved him into his squad car and reached for his gun, setting it off in the car. Then the two ran. The officer stepped out of his vehicle and began firing. Brown was gunned down.

Even the officer's account doesn't make it sound like he was in any danger.

[xu82]

Were the cops wrong? Maybe. I don't know enough to say, but that could be the case. That will take some time to figure out. Are the rioters wrong... Absolutely. No questions there.

[xu82]

Even if they do emerge, unless there's an HD quality video of the melee and shooting from a perfect angle, there is going to be a large segment of people who do not believe the facts are ACTUALLY the facts anyway.

Are you talking about that bogus moon landing video?

[Smails]

The riots are unfortunate, but not as unfortunate as the killing that caused them. They are a reaction by a black community that must feel pretty helpless as news of police brutality towards black men seemingly run more and more frequently. I assure you that this has nothing to do with getting "new kicks". .

You can assure people all you want...but that doesn't make it accurate. The reaction of the 'black community' has been by and large a message of non-violence and a determined effort to see that justice is served. The rioting and looting are nothing more than opportunism by punks who care much more about getting the new jordans than they do about social injustice. Please don't insult the "black community" by saying that thuggish behavior is their only means of protest. Your statement is rooted in racism.

From the NAACP chapter President:

"To sneak around under the cover of darkness, to steal, to loot, to burn down your neighborhood -- this does not require courage," "Courage is when you strive for justice." "Martin Luther King did not live and die so that we may steal and lie in the middle of the night."

[Frambo]

According to the Officer, one boy shoved him into his squad car and reached for his gun, setting it off in the car.

maybe this made the cop fear for his life and then he snapped....you and I don't know how that went down from sketchy reports that are coming out.

bottom line.....get out of the street when told to.....don't push an officer (even IF he might deserve it).....don't reach for his gun.....and you would have lived to see another day.

then as for the rioters.....most could care less about this kid getting shot IMO - they are taking a opportunity to pillage and plunder - makes me sorrier for the parents and others who are heartbroken and show their dissent in the proper manner.

[NY44]

The rioting and looting are nothing more than opportunism by punks who care much more about getting the new jordans than they do about social injustice. Please don't insult the "black community" by saying that thuggish behavior is their only means of protest. Your statement is rooted in racism.[/I]

You're absolutely right and I agree, I wrongly defined the black community. The main point I was trying to make is that these opportunists who are taking advantage of a tragedy are less of the problem then what has given them such opportunity.

[Kahns Krazy]

According to Brown's friend and other eye witnesses, Brown and his friend didn't get on the sidewalk when ordered to. He continued walking, saying they were close to their destination. The officer threw open his door, hitting Brown and bouncing back onto himself. The officer grabbed him and shot him. Brown ran, stopped, put his hands up saying "I don't have a gun. Stop shooting" when he was shot dead.

According to the Officer, one boy shoved him into his squad car and reached for his gun, setting it off in the car. Then the two ran. The officer stepped out of his vehicle and began firing. Brown was gunned down.

Even the officer's account doesn't make it sound like he was in any danger.

So by both accounts the problem would have been avoided had they stopped breaking the law when the police officer asked them to?

Ignoring that the escalation was a disaster, there was still a decision made by Brown that could have resulted in a completely different outcome, and one that he was completely in the wrong to make. Same thing with the recent cop shooting here.

Personal responsibility, people. Cops don't shoot people that do what they say to do.

[NY44]

bottom line.....get out of the street when told to.....don't push an officer (even IF he might deserve it).....don't reach for his gun.....and you would have lived to see another day.

I think that's a terrible mindset. I agree that people need to appreciate and respect what police do, but to say you better get out of the street or you might get killed by them is insane. Those statements make police sound like soldiers holding communities hostage.

[XU 87]

Here are the facts I'm concerned about: who's armed and who's not. Police should be trained and calm enough to handle people who are not armed without using deadly force. Period. They're purpose is to protect and from all accounts they didn't save anyone by killing this man.

Really? so if the kid was trying to take his gun, the gun shouldn't use his weapon? Suppose the kid was kicking the cop's ass and bashing his head into the ground? Can the cop shoot him then?

Police are trained to not use deadly force. Most cops go a career without ever firing their weapon, much less kill someone.

The fact I'm most concerned about- was the cop protecting himself or other people when he shot this kid? As a result of your political bias, it seems like you've already made that determination without knowing the facts. If this cop shot this kid without justifiable reason, then he need to be prosecuted. But I'd like to learn the facts first before making my own determination.

[NY44]

So by both accounts the problem would have been avoided had they stopped breaking the law when the police officer asked them to?

Ignoring that the escalation was a disaster, there was still a decision made by Brown that could have resulted in a completely different outcome, and one that he was completely in the wrong to make. Same thing with the recent cop shooting here.

Personal responsibility, people. Cops don't shoot people that do what they say to do.

So now it's our personal responsibility to NOT get shot by police? What happened to arresting them? Writing them a jay walking ticket?

Please, do not underestimate the power of police to peacefully resolve conflicts. There have been mass shootings where the suspect was taken alive.

[XU 87]

I think that's a terrible mindset. I agree that people need to appreciate and respect what police do, but to say you better get out of the street or you might get killed by them is insane. Those statements make police sound like soldiers holding communities hostage.

That's not what he said. He said when the police tell you do something, like "don't walk in the middle of the street" (walking in the middle of the street is against the law), do it. Ignoring the cop or telling him "to go to hell" escalates the problem and makes things worse.

The fact that this kid ignored such a simple instruction from a police officer suggests that he was a little on the punk side.

[NY44]

Really? so if the kid was trying to take his gun, the gun shouldn't use his weapon?

No he shouldn't. I don't know the legal statutes, but if it's not imperative to someone's safety to use deadly force, then it is not justified. Regardless, from all accounts, Brown was some distance when he was dealt the shot that killed him.


Suppose the kid was kicking the cop's ass and bashing his head into the ground? Can the cop shoot him then?

He wasn't.

[blobfan]

According to Brown's friend and other eye witnesses, Brown and his friend didn't get on the sidewalk when ordered to. He continued walking, saying they were close to their destination. The officer threw open his door, hitting Brown and bouncing back onto himself. The officer grabbed him and shot him. Brown ran, stopped, put his hands up saying "I don't have a gun. Stop shooting" when he was shot dead.

According to the Officer, one boy shoved him into his squad car and reached for his gun, setting it off in the car. Then the two ran. The officer stepped out of his vehicle and began firing. Brown was gunned down.

Even the officer's account doesn't make it sound like he was in any danger.

I'm curious where you saw that account from Brown's friend. I've been following the coverage and have not seen an accusation that the cop opened his door into Brown.

As for the cop shooting him while he's running away, if the cop's story is accurate and Brown attacked him in the car, setting off the gun, then took off running, hands up or not, how does the cop know he's not otherwise armed?

There's just not enough solid information to say what happened. Unfortunately we may never get it, given that there was no dashcam and Brown's friend seems to be the only eye-witness.

[NY44]

I'm curious where you saw that account from Brown's friend. I've been following the coverage and have not seen an accusation that the cop opened his door into Brown.

As for the cop shooting him while he's running away, if the cop's story is accurate and Brown attacked him in the car, setting off the gun, then took off running, hands up or not, how does the cop know he's not otherwise armed?

There's a video of him describing the scene on CNN.

Also, if the cop doesn't know he is armed, then why kill him?

[SemajParlor]

I'm curious where you saw that account from Brown's friend. I've been following the coverage and have not seen an accusation that the cop opened his door into Brown.

As for the cop shooting him while he's running away, if the cop's story is accurate and Brown attacked him in the car, setting off the gun, then took off running, hands up or not, how does the cop know he's not otherwise armed?

There's just not enough solid information to say what happened. Unfortunately we may never get it, given that there was no dashcam and Brown's friend seems to be the only eye-witness.

"The officer drove forward but stopped and backed up, almost hitting the pair, Johnson said.

"We were so close, almost inches away, that when he tried to open his door aggressively, the door ricocheted both off me and Big Mike's body and closed back on the officer," Johnson said.

Still in his car, the officer then grabbed Brown by his neck, Johnson said. Brown tried to pull away, but the officer kept pulling Brown toward him, he said.
The officer drew his weapon, and "he said, 'I'll shoot you' or 'I'm going to shoot' " and almost instantaneously fired his weapon, hitting Brown, Johnson said."


Also, Brown's friend was not the only eye witness.

http://www.cnn.com/2014/08/11/us/missouri-ferguson-michael-brown-what-we-know/index.html

[Frambo]

I think that's a terrible mindset. I agree that people need to appreciate and respect what police do, but to say you better get out of the street or you might get killed by them is insane. Those statements make police sound like soldiers holding communities hostage.

I think you are the one with the terrible mindset. Walking down the middle of the street can be a safety hazard....the cop was right in what he did at the start. I (nor you) know what happened next, but if the cop is struggling with one of them IN his car....somethings wrong there and the cop isn't 100% in the wrong. Personal responsibility is lacking in our street culture today...sad state of affairs.

[MHettel]

I generally stay out of this kind of stuff....

But my brother, who has been a cop in STL for less than 2 years, recently shot and killed a suspect after a lengthy vehicle chase which ended in a a firery wreck. He approached the vehicle after the wreck with a fire extinguisher and saw the suspect had a gun. He yelled out "gun!" as loud as possible to warn the other officers, but the suspect got off a shot and hit and officer in the chest (vest ON). Then my brother shot and killed the suspect. He was awarded some medals, etc by the mayor and city council.

His description to me was that the situation developed so quickly that he was left to act on his training and instict. Essentially no conscious decisions made on his part. Almost as if he was outside his body simply observing himself.

Now, imagine a 6'4" giant pushing you into your cop car, going for your gun. Not knowing if when you emerge from the car if the suspect of his friends have guns.

Terrible situation.

When one hits that close to home for you, please feel free to share the details. It might make some of these "monday morning quarterback" opinions a bit more credible.

[SemajParlor]

Which side of the story you want to believe is up to you... but let's not act like there is not legitimate information out there.

[fellahmuskie]

I don't have much to add, except that I agree with almost everything NY44 is saying and think his first post in this thread was one of the most intelligent things I've ever seen posted on this message board. Amazing how radically divided we can all be.

Blobfan, yes, his friend did say the officer opened his door into Brown.http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/eyewitness-michael-brown-fatal-shooting-missouri

For me, the issue comes down to whether or not you believe in systemic racism. I do and I think the looting is a highly rational response from members of a fed-up community. Given american society, it will likely end up hurting them even more, but it does not mean they are "evil" people. They are simply human beings responding in a way that many of us would also respond if we were similarly oppressed. Judgment, in my opinion, is against "white" establishment America, not the oppressed.

[Pete Delkus]

I think that's a terrible mindset. I agree that people need to appreciate and respect what police do, but to say you better get out of the street or you might get killed by them is insane. Those statements make police sound like soldiers holding communities hostage.

So let's see:
These areas hate the Cops when they patrol.
Want Cops to show 13 seconds after a shooting, to help the victim.
Get blamed by the same people for not controlling the violence.
Won't talk to detectives to assist in investigation.

..."Police holding the communities hostage" ??????????

My Lord - are you serious?

[SemajParlor]

I think you are the one with the terrible mindset. Walking down the middle of the street can be a safety hazard....the cop was right in what he did at the start. I (nor you) know what happened next, but if the cop is struggling with one of them IN his car....somethings wrong there and the cop isn't 100% in the wrong. Personal responsibility is lacking in our street culture today...sad state of affairs.

Wait, just so we are clear.. the police officer (name still unreleased) who shot and killed an unarmed kid is not the one who lacks personal responsibility. It's the people who walked in the middle of the road aka street culture. Got it.

[fellahmuskie]

I just read MHettel's post and would like to clarify that when I think about racism, I really mean systemic racism. It's not a moral thing, i.e. I very much view myself as a racist, as any other white person born into our society. So, I don't think that a police officer who shoots someone in this type of situation is any more of a racist than I am. I in no way can judge them, that's between them and God. I think it's our screwed-up country, though, that creates all of these tragedies. And it's not black communities that are to blame (in my opinion).

[GoMuskies]

Judgment, in my opinion, is against "white" establishment America, not the oppressed.

Good Lord

[OH.X.MI]

So by both accounts the problem would have been avoided had they stopped breaking the law when the police officer asked them to?

Ignoring that the escalation was a disaster, there was still a decision made by Brown that could have resulted in a completely different outcome, and one that he was completely in the wrong to make. Same thing with the recent cop shooting here.

Personal responsibility, people. Cops don't shoot people that do what they say to do.

That is utterly insane logic. No one should be shot and killed for "disobeying" an officer in a non-violent situation like jaywalking. He was walking in the street and therefore deserved to get killed? Give me a break. I rode my bike on the sidewalk in Norwood going to class all the time, which is "illegal." Are you telling me if I kept riding on said sidewalk Norwood PD would be justified killing me? This isn't the Inquisition. And what about the personal, professional, and ethical responsibility of the officer to not use deadly force?

That said, rioting is never excusable. As others have said, it's not people seeking justice, they are just seeking an excuse for causing mayhem.

[Juice]

Wow...this is the biggest load of crap i have ever seen on this board and that is saying something. First of all...were you there that day when he got shot by police? How do you know what was going on? Just because he wasn't armed doesn't mean anything...what if he tried wrestling the police officer and to take his gun?

The riots are "unfortunate?" So since they aren't trying to get new kicks, what are they trying to prove by damaging businesses who have nothing to do with what happened...and then stealing from those same businesses? I'm sure that by stealing that tv that makes them feel that justice has been served. Also, reports have come out today that a cop had to shoot an armed masked man during these riots and that person is now in critical condition...i'm guessing that rioting was worth it.

Furthermore, the reaction by the black community...rioting isn't the reaction by the black community as a whole...the people that are rioting are the ones who are already messed up in drugs, gangs etc etc. This just gives them a great excuse. It is not a normal reaction by normal people to go rob or damage another person's property when you are upset by something.

Look I am pretty skeptical when it comes to cops and it doesn't matter if they are white, black, green or purple. They are humans just like everyone else and they make mistakes, and a lot of them seem to be on big power trips. However, neither of us know what happened that day so just shut up.

Do you know for a fact that the people rioting are in gangs or are you just assuming because they're black?

[Smails]

Wait, just so we are clear.. the police officer (name still unreleased) who shot and killed an unarmed kid is the not the one who lacks personal responsibility. It's the people who walked in the middle of the road aka street culture. Got it.

Nobody said that....nobody. Justice needs to be served, meaining the officer will have to answer for his actions and nobody here has indicated anything to the contrary. Justice however needs to be vetted in a civilized manner and burning down the local Family Dollar serves absolutely no purpose, none.

[blobfan]

On this board alone there are so many people ready to jump on one side or the other and so defensive about others comments that they don't read them critically. That doesn't bode well for the national conversation. I'm still trying to gather info. I appreciate those that gave me the link to the friend's interview as I hadn't seen it yet. It's so outrageous that I would expect the cop to have an extensive list of past complaints filed against him if that account is true. I still have not seen any mentions of other eyewitness accounts and am curious what others saw.

[Kahns Krazy]

So now it's our personal responsibility to NOT get shot by police? What happened to arresting them? Writing them a jay walking ticket?

Please, do not underestimate the power of police to peacefully resolve conflicts. There have been mass shootings where the suspect was taken alive.

You know you twisted what I said. It is our responsibility to obey the law in the first place, then to obey the police officer that reminds you to obey the law. If you do that, you don't get shot. Once you don't do that, your action started the chain of events.

I'm not saying that there weren't more faults after the first one, but it is a fact that nobody who obeyed the police officer got shot.

[Kahns Krazy]

I do and I think the looting is a highly rational response from members of a fed-up community. .

I have never seen this argument made ever. How exactly is looting a rational response to anything?

[Smails]

I think the looting is a highly rational response from members of a fed-up community

Whaaat??? Looting is highly rational? I have no words

[SemajParlor]

Nobody said that....nobody. Justice needs to be served, meaining the officer will have to answer for his actions and nobody here has indicated anything to the contrary. Justice however needs to be vetted in a civilized manner and burning down the local Family Dollar serves absolutely no purpose, none.

Well, it absolutely does serve a purpose. We are still talking about Mike Brown, no? Not saying I or anyone should be supporting this or agreeing with it morally.

[X-band '01]

I don't have much to add, except that I agree with almost everything NY44 is saying and think his first post in this thread was one of the most intelligent things I've ever seen posted on this message board. Amazing how radically divided we can all be.

Blobfan, yes, his friend did say the officer opened his door into Brown.http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/eyewitness-michael-brown-fatal-shooting-missouri

For me, the issue comes down to whether or not you believe in systemic racism. I do and I think the looting is a highly rational response from members of a fed-up community. Given american society, it will likely end up hurting them even more, but it does not mean they are "evil" people. They are simply human beings responding in a way that many of us would also respond if we were similarly oppressed. Judgment, in my opinion, is against "white" establishment America, not the oppressed.

I can see where NY44 is coming from (note I'm NOT using the word understand here - there is a distinction) - some people are going to have a snap reaction once the phrase "fatally shot an unarmed black man" is uttered. There is going to be a demand for answers and answers immediately. The longer it takes to find said answers, the more risk there will be towards a)the community (i.e. Ferguson) where the shooting occurred and b)the police department.

Another thing that's going on is that online hackers are going after the Ferguson website and looking up information on all the police officers there. All officers (and family and friends in some instances) are being outed to some extent on social media. I don't think it's going to stop anytime soon even if the Ferguson PD ultimately decides to name the officer in question. If the riots don't subside anytime soon, there's going to be a mandatory curfew for that area (if it hasn't already been instituted).

It's understandable for leaders in the African-American community to want the facts to come out in a swift and concise manner, but it's also important to note that they've also said that rioting is not the answer, especially with the parents of the shooting victim coming out in public asking for a peaceful resolution.

[fellahmuskie]

[QUOTE]
I think the looting is a highly rational response from members of a fed-up community[QUOTE]

Whaaat??? Looting is highly rational? I have no words

I'm not arguing the effectiveness or ineffectiveness of looting, rather stating that there's plenty more going on than the media would traditionally lead you to believe.

http://www.orchestratedpulse.com/2014/08/ferguson-riots-political/

[Pete Delkus]

Fellahmuskie, My gift:

http://www.salon.com/2000/02/17/guilty/

[Xville]

Do you know for a fact that the people rioting are in gangs or are you just assuming because they're black?

wow you clearly are racist. I feel bad for you. When did being in a gang mean being black? By the way there are reports that some of the members that have been identified and arrested from these riots are "known criminals" and from gangs within the city limits. Also, i never said they were all in gangs, im just saying these are the kinds of people who are rioting and looting. Normal people don't do this kind of crap and have the reaction to do this when something goes wrong.

[X-band '01]

If I'm a resident or a business owner in an area where looting is deemed acceptable, I'm getting the hell out of Dodge in a U-Haul posthaste.

It is NOT anywhere close to demonstrations/civil disobedience.

[ArizonaXUGrad]

I have a few issues with what was being said. If the door was either pushed back onto the cop or the door ricocheted back to the cop how did the kid go after the cop's gun? Was the window open and he reached through it?

The second thing and I have a cop friend and a friend who was in the border patrol, law enforcement is instructed to both escalate and deescalate force as the suspect does. If the suspect was running away and had his back to the cop and/or surrendering then the cop should not have fired on the suspect since the suspect is not firing at the cop.

If no gun is found that was Brown's the cop should be charged with the shooting.

[GoMuskies]

Fellahmuskie, My gift:

http://www.salon.com/2000/02/17/guilty/

That was a bizarre article. That is one fucked up broad.

[fellahmuskie]

Fellahmuskie, My gift:

http://www.salon.com/2000/02/17/guilty/

Thank you. That's an interesting article. I agree with some of it, unsure about other parts. Haven't really had similar experiences, so I'm not sure what to say. One thing I do know is that I'm young and can be hotheaded, so plenty of what I say and the way I say it right now will probably change in the coming years. Mostly, I hope that I always try to say and do the right thing, no matter how hard it is. It's just hard to know what is right.

[Pete Delkus]

Thank you. That's an interesting article. I agree with some of it, unsure about other parts. Haven't really had similar experiences, so I'm not sure what to say. One thing I do know is that I'm young and can be hotheaded, so plenty of what I say and the way I say it right now will probably change in the coming years. Mostly, I hope that I always try to say and do the right thing, no matter how hard it is. It's just hard to know what is right.

Well written response.

[waggy]

It's not hard to know that rioting is wrong.

[Juice]

wow you clearly are racist. I feel bad for you. When did being in a gang mean being black? By the way there are reports that some of the members that have been identified and arrested from these riots are "known criminals" and from gangs within the city limits. Also, i never said they were all in gangs, im just saying these are the kinds of people who are rioting and looting. Normal people don't do this kind of crap and have the reaction to do this when something goes wrong.

Right, some are known criminals. Not all of them are. That is my point. We paint those in this community with broad brushes thinking that everyone who is rioting is a criminal. Some of them are probably just fed up as they see another young, black man get shot and killed by police.

A lot of times the shootings are justified, i.e. the one in Walnut Hills a week or two ago.

[Juice]

It's not hard to know that rioting is wrong.

I think rational people from both "sides" of this issue recognize that. The rioting is too much of the focus when it should be on the incident that caused all of this. And it's not as simple as "Obey police or you'll die."

[fellahmuskie]

It's not hard to know that rioting is wrong.

You are a Christian, correct? What would your take be on a young black man storming into a megachurch with a whip and vandalizing the coffee shop and bookstore, all in the name of some radical beliefs?

[waggy]

I think rational people from both "sides" of this issue recognize that. The rioting is too much of the focus when it should be on the incident that caused all of this. And it's not as simple as "Obey police or you'll die."

Well I'm glad that we've mostly established that rioting is wrong. Maybe we can move forward as a civilized society.

As far as obeying or disobeying police... I've done both. There are consequences to not obeying. Not being callous or insensitive - just a simple statement of truth. Young people will do stupid things. Cops can be assholes.

[waggy]

You are a Christian, correct? What would your take be on a young black man storming into a megachurch with a whip and vandalizing the coffee shop and bookstore, all in the name of some radical beliefs?

Huh? What would "my take" be? He needs psychiatric help, but he might get shot before he gets it?

[Smails]

Well, it absolutely does serve a purpose. We are still talking about Mike Brown, no? Not saying I or anyone should be supporting this or agreeing with it morally.

Ummm, it doesn't take a riot to get this board talking about race. There have been plenty of racially charged discussions on this board that weren't triggered by looters. Looting and rioting just seem to fly in the face of social evolution. There has to be a more progressive and civilized way to deal with accusations of injustice. It's 2014.

[GoMuskies]

Huh? What would "my take" be? He needs psychiatric help, but he might get shot before he gets it?

You think JESUS needed psychiatric help?!? Sinner!

[fellahmuskie]

Huh? What would "my take" be? He needs psychiatric help, but he might get shot before he gets it?

Lol, OK. You win.

[fellahmuskie]

I should clarify, when I say I think something is rational, it doesn't mean I believe it is morally right.

I do think that dismissing the looting out of hand as senseless is a major oversimplification of issues in a community. At the same time, there are often people (often from the outside) who are quick to take advantage of chaos for their own ends, as seems to have been the case in Ferguson the last couple of days.

[xu82]

It's not hard to know that rioting is wrong.

Apparently not everyone has your keen eye.

[Xville]

I should clarify, when I say I think something is rational, it doesn't mean I believe it is morally right.

I do think that dismissing the looting out of hand as senseless is a major oversimplification of issues in a community. At the same time, there are often people (often from the outside) who are quick to take advantage of chaos for their own ends, as seems to have been the case in Ferguson the last couple of days.

I'm not quite sure what you are trying to say here. Looting and Rioting is senseless in every possible sense of the action. It is stupid, doesn't solve anything and is one of the most immature things a reaction someone can have.

[Frambo]

Wait, just so we are clear.. the police officer (name still unreleased) who shot and killed an unarmed kid is not the one who lacks personal responsibility. It's the people who walked in the middle of the road aka street culture. Got it.

glad I could clear it up for you ;)

it remains to be seen if the cop reacted as trained or not....if he was a gunslinger, I hope he gets his just punishment. But....if the kids had reacted properly to being told to get out of the middle of the street, we would be talking about the upcoming MuskieMadness, Robin Williams, or ISIS instead of this incident....so yes, I think they lacked personal responsibility.

[fellahmuskie]

I'm not quite sure what you are trying to say here. Looting and Rioting is senseless in every possible sense of the action. It is stupid, doesn't solve anything and is one of the most immature things a reaction someone can have.

This is an article I read about Ferguson that spells out some of the reasoning behind the looting the first night. http://www.orchestratedpulse.com/2014/08/ferguson-riots-political/

[drudy23]

Put yourself in the cops situation...you become involved in a struggle with someone that goes after your gun, and it's your job to control the threat. You have NO IDEA if the perp or his buddy has a gun, but you know that he just went after yours. Not only do you have to protect yourself, you have to protect the public from these idiots. I'm not saying he followed "proper training" if indeed he shot them while running away (still unclear on those facts), but base don the circumstances, there's no way this can be looked at as something criminal. Cops are given a higher standard in these type of situations for this very reason...this is far from a stroll down the street and a conversation with someone walking in the middle of it.

Could he lose his job...perhaps...could he be criminally convicted...no way.

[waggy]

This is an article I read about Ferguson that spells out some of the reasoning behind the looting the first night. http://www.orchestratedpulse.com/2014/08/ferguson-riots-political/


So the righteous means to an end is that they "get they own"? I don't know the answer to giving them more money or more ecomonic opportunity. If Obama runs out of people to take money from, for redistribution, then I think we're officially out of ideas on that front. But no one's giving this cracker any money either, if it makes you feel any better.

[blobfan]

This is an article I read about Ferguson that spells out some of the reasoning behind the looting the first night. http://www.orchestratedpulse.com/2014/08/ferguson-riots-political/
From their web site: "We put a leftist spin on art, politics, social movements, and whatever random stuff that we think is dope. Although this is a magazine, we don’t try to be objective."

The article you cite seems to be spinning events after the fact and I would NEVER cite a blog like this as support in an argument. It's pure opinion. It spells out nothing and deliberately and openly tries to justify criminal activity by saying it's part of politics. But even that justification doesn't hold up under scrutiny. Rioting/looting becomes a sideshow, an excuse to focus on something other than the core issue. Youth riot, we moan about curfews and after school jobs and get distracted by bandaid solutions because they are easier to fix than poverty. The feds step in, some people get paid, both cops and residents end up feeling maligned. Nothing fundamentally changes. And 10 years later we end up seeing the same scenario repeat itself.

Seriously. Don't cite biased opinion blogs. Give us a link that shows where rioting/looting actually changed something.

[XU 87]

I think the looting is a highly rational response from members of a fed-up community.

Members of my community are also fed-up with many issues. So in protest, I assume it would be ok with you if we came and looted your home. One thing-we will only steal things that are valuable and that we can use (televisions and electronic equipment are two items that we will steal to fully show how upset we are). The things we don't want, or can't use, or can't carry, we won't steal, but we may break them. And we may break a few windows and doors along the way.

If you would keep your doors unlocked that would be appreciated. And remember, this isn't being done so we can lots of free stuff that we can use; it's being done because we're really upset about things in our community and this is our way of letting certain officials know.

Thank you in advance for your understanding.

[blobfan]

Put yourself in the cops situation...you become involved in a struggle with someone that goes after your gun, and it's your job to control the threat. You have NO IDEA if the perp or his buddy has a gun, but you know that he just went after yours. Not only do you have to protect yourself, you have to protect the public from these idiots. I'm not saying he followed "proper training" if indeed he shot them while running away (still unclear on those facts), but base don the circumstances, there's no way this can be looked at as something criminal. Cops are given a higher standard in these type of situations for this very reason...this is far from a stroll down the street and a conversation with someone walking in the middle of it.

Could he lose his job...perhaps...could he be criminally convicted...no way.

More hypotheticals. Right now, this version is equally as probably as the friends account. The cop could be a crazed racist hell-bent on taking out a kid that talked back. Then again the friend ran and hid then shows up on TV later with an attorney and a polished story. I want to hear from more than one eye-witness, or at least one other person that saw the friend witness events. The claims that the police haven't interviewed the friend suggest the cop may not have reported him as being there. It's all very strange.

[Xville]

This is an article I read about Ferguson that spells out some of the reasoning behind the looting the first night. http://www.orchestratedpulse.com/2014/08/ferguson-riots-political/

still doesn't make sense. I know Saint Louis very well..I was born and raised and had a lot of high school friends who lived up in North County..specifically Florissant and Ferguson so i know the area well. This "article" that you cite is a complete joke..I love how no one ever takes responsibility for their actions. Its because the white man is oppressive is the reason why looting and burning my own community is ok...what a freaking joke.

Saint Louis, like most cities, has a race problem, but it is due to the poor who are always looking for handouts both white, black, yellow purple whatever. They are the ones that are the problem. I am not saying every poor person, I am saying the ones who are poor yet have a sense of entitlement that everything should be given to them, and people need to help me because it is everyone else's fault for the position that i am in. The poor people will blame everything on everyone except themselves, and blaming people of a different color is one of the easiest things for them to do. Sorry but this is the real world, and not everyone gets an orange slice and a trophy.

You want a different life? Get an education, work hard, and stop blaming everyone else for the situation you were born into or in right now.

[paulxu]

It amazes me that with all the cell phones out there, that someone hasn't posted a video of this. (I don't think)

[DC Muskie]

Saint Louis, like most cities, has a race problem, but it is due to the poor who are always looking for handouts both white, black, yellow purple whatever. They are the ones that are the problem. I am not saying every poor person, I am saying the ones who are poor yet have a sense of entitlement that everything should be given to them, and people need to help me because it is everyone else's fault for the position that i am in. The poor people will blame everything on everyone except themselves, and blaming people of a different color is one of the easiest things for them to do. Sorry but this is the real world, and not everyone gets an orange slice and a trophy.

You want a different life? Get an education, work hard, and stop blaming everyone else for the situation you were born into or in right now.

What a simple way of looking at poor people. In your experience, what would you say is the percentage of poor people who think they are entitled?

[Xville]

What a simple way of looking at poor people. In your experience, what would you say is the percentage of poor people who think they are entitled?

why don't you re-read what i said before asking that question...i clearly said not all poor people, i said poor yet have the feeling of being entitled.

[DC Muskie]

why don't you re-read what i said before asking that question...i clearly said not all poor people, i said poor yet have the feeling of being entitled.

Yes I read it hence my question, what is the percentage of poor people that have a feeling of entitlement?

It's funny when I read stuff like this..."Oh not all poor people, just the ones that feel entitled." Okay, have you ever met a poor person who flaunts this entitlement? Obviously there is a great deal of these types of poor people and really they just need to go out and work hard, get an education, and BOOM stop being poor. I'm often left wondering what about the other poor people who don't feel entitled, should they not go out and work hard etc, etc?

It's such a simple way of looking at poor people, that's all I'm saying.

[fellahmuskie]

From their web site: "We put a leftist spin on art, politics, social movements, and whatever random stuff that we think is dope. Although this is a magazine, we don’t try to be objective."

The article you cite seems to be spinning events after the fact and I would NEVER cite a blog like this as support in an argument. It's pure opinion. It spells out nothing and deliberately and openly tries to justify criminal activity by saying it's part of politics. But even that justification doesn't hold up under scrutiny. Rioting/looting becomes a sideshow, an excuse to focus on something other than the core issue. Youth riot, we moan about curfews and after school jobs and get distracted by bandaid solutions because they are easier to fix than poverty. The feds step in, some people get paid, both cops and residents end up feeling maligned. Nothing fundamentally changes. And 10 years later we end up seeing the same scenario repeat itself.

Seriously. Don't cite biased opinion blogs. Give us a link that shows where rioting/looting actually changed something.

I haven't said that rioting/looting changes anything.

I thought that article provided perspective on why some people did what they did in Ferguson. If I say something nasty to my wife because she upset me earlier in the day, I'm being immature and stupid, but it's still a rational, logical response in many ways. An eye for an eye (or a head for an eye, more often) is how most of the world functions, myself included at times, and I'm saying that's how many looters view what they have done in Ferguson, not as some random act of violence simply because they are sick, twisted individuals.

[Xville]

Yes I read it hence my question, what is the percentage of poor people that have a feeling of entitlement?

It's funny when I read stuff like this..."Oh not all poor people, just the ones that feel entitled." Okay, have you ever met a poor person who flaunts this entitlement? Obviously there is a great deal of these types of poor people and really they just need to go out and work hard, get an education, and BOOM stop being poor. I'm often left wondering what about the other poor people who don't feel entitled, should they not go out and work hard etc, etc?

It's such a simple way of looking at poor people, that's all I'm saying.

The "other poor people" that you stated are not the problem, that is why i said the poor people who are seeking handouts are the problem. I have met plenty of poor people who have this entitlement. They are the ones who think I should pay for their healthcare, their welfare, and their babies because they don't know what a condom is. They are also the ones protesting out in the middle of the day on a Monday or Tuesday..how about go to work?

There are plenty of hard-working poor people...however, they are not the issue, because they aren't the ones seeking handouts, and doing stupid crap like looting and setting fires to businesses.

Yes it is a simple way of looking at poor people. However, it is also true.

[blobfan]

Yes I read it hence my question, what is the percentage of poor people that have a feeling of entitlement?
...

That's an impossible question to answer. My guess is it relates to the percentage of people that commit fraud but that's problematic as well. While I can find estimates of fraud for various programs, there's no real way to know if these are individual instances or if some people commit multiple frauds and which of the perpetrators are actually poor. On the other hand, there's no way of knowing how many people may be committing hidden fraud such as negotiating down their salaries so they don't make too much to get support.

It doesn't really matter what percentage. As long as there are enough people that spend more energy crying about what is owed them than they put into making sure they do right, there will be fodder for those that don't want to give anything. We have what, 5 documented cases of recent election fraud, none of which seems to have swayed an election, and it's causing the whole system to go crazy. With 44M people in poverty if only .1% feel entitled we have more than 400,000 examples of bad behavior.

That's why looting and rioting is such a stupid way to get attention. There are more than 14,000 people in Ferguson with dark skin and less than one percent of that population is taking most of our focus.

[X-band '01]

It amazes me that with all the cell phones out there, that someone hasn't posted a video of this. (I don't think)

In this case, I don't think there were any witnesses that did get a video of what happened - if there were such a video, it would have leaked and gone viral almost instantaneously. That's why we're at a he said-he said point (unless there was police cruiser video that's being withheld if it was available).

[blobfan]

I haven't said that rioting/looting changes anything.

I thought that article provided perspective on why some people did what they did in Ferguson. If I say something nasty to my wife because she upset me earlier in the day, I'm being immature and stupid, but it's still a rational, logical response in many ways. An eye for an eye (or a head for an eye, more often) is how most of the world functions, myself included at times, and I'm saying that's how many looters view what they have done in Ferguson, not as some random act of violence simply because they are sick, twisted individuals.

Logical perhaps, but not rational. Rational suggests there was reflection, not just cause and effect.

If you are just an a$$ that likes to say nasty things, you may justify your behavior by claiming you are simply retaliating for something your wife did earlier. The 'article' you cite only hypothosizes a way in which the behavior may have been politically motivated but in no way provides support that this is what happened. There's a fairly logical hypothesis that the moon landing was staged. Doesn't mean it's real.

I think you are giving the looters too much credit. These are criminals using community anger as a cover to cause damage. I won't impugn the peaceful protestors by agreeing otherwise.

[LA Muskie]

As for the cop shooting him while he's running away, if the cop's story is accurate and Brown attacked him in the car, setting off the gun, then took off running, hands up or not, how does the cop know he's not otherwise armed?
Doesn't matter. If he's running AWAY the cop is not at risk, and hence should not fire.

[waggy]

Doesn't matter. If he's running AWAY the cop is not at risk, and hence should not fire.


IF he is guilty of assaulting a police officer, then he takes a very big chance of getting shot. Running away or not.

[blobfan]

Doesn't matter. If he's running AWAY the cop is not at risk, and hence should not fire.

If he is running away and may be armed he's a risk to the community so it's a gray area.

[LA Muskie]

You know you twisted what I said. It is our responsibility to obey the law in the first place, then to obey the police officer that reminds you to obey the law. If you do that, you don't get shot. Once you don't do that, your action started the chain of events.

I'm not saying that there weren't more faults after the first one, but it is a fact that nobody who obeyed the police officer got shot.
By your "logic" if the cop had just spent a few more minutes eating his donut, nobody gets shot. You can't allocate blame by looking at the first event in a chain. There's always an earlier one.

[fellahmuskie]

Logical perhaps, but not rational. Rational suggests there was reflection, not just cause and effect.

If you are just an a$$ that likes to say nasty things, you may justify your behavior by claiming you are simply retaliating for something your wife did earlier. The 'article' you cite only hypothosizes a way in which the behavior may have been politically motivated but in no way provides support that this is what happened. There's a fairly logical hypothesis that the moon landing was staged. Doesn't mean it's real.

I think you are giving the looters too much credit. These are criminals using community anger as a cover to cause damage. I won't impugn the peaceful protestors by agreeing otherwise.

Ok, I agree with most of what you're saying. Rational may be too strong of a word and perhaps I shouldn't have used it without knowing more about what happened. And since I know nothing about Ferguson, the article I gave could be 100% off-base.

I don't think all of the rioters were hardened, cynical criminals, but I'm sure some of them were, and I think the number of people looking to take advantage of the situation increased after the first few hours/first night.

Again, given I think systemic racism is a problem, I think in situations like this it's smart to go beyond simply labeling the rioters as the "bad guys" and also try to figure out why some many communities and households are broken. I think anyone who rioted should be punished fairly, but I believe there are also much worse problems in the way American society functions that need to be addressed.

[GoMuskies]

if the cop had just spent a few more minutes eating his donut

http://underthebutton.com/blog/wp-content/imagescaler/a2e79e76d81aba9b12dc62ed986e3503.jpg

[LA Muskie]

I should clarify, when I say I think something is rational, it doesn't mean I believe it is morally right.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F8y-qy9N01I

[DC Muskie]

The "other poor people" that you stated are not the problem, that is why i said the poor people who are seeking handouts are the problem. I have met plenty of poor people who have this entitlement. They are the ones who think I should pay for their healthcare, their welfare, and their babies because they don't know what a condom is. They are also the ones protesting out in the middle of the day on a Monday or Tuesday..how about go to work?

There are plenty of hard-working poor people...however, they are not the issue, because they aren't the ones seeking handouts, and doing stupid crap like looting and setting fires to businesses.

Yes it is a simple way of looking at poor people. However, it is also true.

This is really fucked up way at looking at poor people. "Stop protesting! Get a job!" I never knew all people who protested fell into the "entitled" section of the poor population.

Also, I'm very surprised that you have poor people who come up to you and demand that you pay for their healthcare and welfare and won't even stop to learn from you what a condom is. You live a strange life, so I can see how you have developed your position on the poor.


That's an impossible question to answer. My guess is it relates to the percentage of people that commit fraud but that's problematic as well. While I can find estimates of fraud for various programs, there's no real way to know if these are individual instances or if some people commit multiple frauds and which of the perpetrators are actually poor. On the other hand, there's no way of knowing how many people may be committing hidden fraud such as negotiating down their salaries so they don't make too much to get support.

It doesn't really matter what percentage. As long as there are enough people that spend more energy crying about what is owed them than they put into making sure they do right, there will be fodder for those that don't want to give anything. We have what, 5 documented cases of recent election fraud, none of which seems to have swayed an election, and it's causing the whole system to go crazy. With 44M people in poverty if only .1% feel entitled we have more than 400,000 examples of bad behavior.

My point is that you don't separate poor people into "acceptable" and "unacceptable" categories. If you think you should, then may I suggest you go on a retreat and do some soul searching if you claim yourself as a Christian.

Poverty is not a result of laziness. We shouldn't look at them as people who don't deserve this, and shouldn't expect that and then lecture them to work hard. While at the same time tolerate poor people who don't seem to bother us as much. I've actually worked with the poor for many years, and I have never had the experience that Xville has with them demanding that I pay for this and that. Not once.

Also, I'm just sticking with the poor topic, because frankly rioting and looting is simply stupid.

[SemajParlor]

Ummm, it doesn't take a riot to get this board talking about race. There have been plenty of racially charged discussions on this board that weren't triggered by looters. Looting and rioting just seem to fly in the face of social evolution. There has to be a more progressive and civilized way to deal with accusations of injustice. It's 2014.

I meant on a national scale, not this message board. I also agree with you about the rioting.

[LA Muskie]

IF he is guilty of assaulting a police officer, then he takes a very big chance of getting shot. Running away or not.
That may be true. But if a cop shoots an unarmed person running AWAY (and hence not creating any risk of imminent harm to the officer or anyone else), the cop runs a very big chance of being convicted. Or at least he should.

[waggy]

I think systemic racism is a problem.

If it's racism then it goes both ways. White people don't have the market cornered on racism by a looong shot.

I think it's frustration born out their economic plight.

[fellahmuskie]

If it's racism then it goes both ways. White people don't have the market cornered on racism by a looong shot.

I think it's frustration born out their economic plight.

Right, and I think it's racism that creates their economic plight. It's just my opinion, I don't expect anyone to agree with me.

[waggy]

That may be true. But if a cop shoots an unarmed person running AWAY (and hence not creating any risk of imminent harm to the officer or anyone else), the cop runs a very big chance of being convicted. Or at least he should.


You cannot resist, legally. A police officer has been given that authority by society.

[SemajParlor]

I've seen a lot of "put yourself in the cops shoes" hypotheticals. It's interesting how people are ignoring the eye witness' account. He says that Brown did NOT reach for his gun. It's fine if you do not believe this witnesses' story for whatever the reason, but can we at least acknowledge that this is very legitimate evidence that there may have been an extreme injustice?

[GoMuskies]

I think it's racism that creates their economic plight.

Don't let all poor black people off the hook quite so easily. There are a lot of poor whities, too, for various reasons.

[Xville]

This is really fucked up way at looking at poor people. "Stop protesting! Get a job!" I never knew all people who protested fell into the "entitled" section of the poor population.

Also, I'm very surprised that you have poor people who come up to you and demand that you pay for their healthcare and welfare and won't even stop to learn from you what a condom is. You live a strange life, so I can see how you have developed your position on the poor.



My point is that you don't separate poor people into "acceptable" and "unacceptable" categories. If you think you should, then may I suggest you go on a retreat and do some soul searching if you claim yourself as a Christian.

Poverty is not a result of laziness. We shouldn't look at them as people who don't deserve this, and shouldn't expect that and then lecture them to work hard. While at the same time tolerate poor people who don't seem to bother us as much. I've actually worked with the poor for many years, and I have never had the experience that Xville has with them demanding that I pay for this and that. Not once.

Also, I'm just sticking with the poor topic, because frankly rioting and looting is simply stupid.

I don't wish to get into a political argument with you because we obviously have very different view points and our argument would go nowhere. However I will leave you with this. In my opinion, poverty can very much be a result of laziness..not in all cases, but certainly some.

[DC Muskie]

I've seen a lot of "put yourself in the cops shoes" hypotheticals. It's interesting how people are ignoring the eye witness' account. He says that Brown did NOT reach for his gun. It's fine if you do not believe this witnesses' story for whatever the reason, but can we at least acknowledge that this is very legitimate evidence that there may have been an extreme injustice?

Not only that, but of this started from kids walking into the street. Is jaywalking really that big of an issue?

[waggy]

I will not acknowledge that this was an extreme injustice because I wasn't there.

I do know you cannot even resist a police officer, legally.

[GoMuskies]

I do know you cannot even resist a police officer, legally.

The punishment isn't supposed to be death, though.

[waggy]

The punishment isn't supposed to be death, though.


You can't punch a police officer and then run away. You get that's a problem, right?

[GoMuskies]

Of course you can't. Summary execution is not the appropriate punishment for that crime, though.

[DC Muskie]

I don't wish to get into a political argument with you because we obviously have very different view points and our argument would go nowhere. However I will leave you with this. In my opinion, poverty can very much be a result of laziness..not in all cases, but certainly some.

And that's cool. I'm just saying that people like you who hold these opinions, have them with no real sense of actually knowing people who are actually poor. Which of course is perfectly fine, I have plenty of opinions on subjects that I don't have first hand experience with. It's just with this particular topic I always find it interesting when people say "some" and "not all" people who are poor fall into "annoying" behavior that upsets you, then you find out it's a perception that isn't based on any personal experience. And yet the annoyance of demanding handouts is always the point that is made rather than the other side of trying to actually work with and help the poor.

[waggy]

Of course you can't. Summary execution is not the appropriate punishment for that crime, though.

IF he went for his gun?....

See, I don't know. I wasn't there. I do know that the police officer does and should get the benefit of the doubt. He has been given the authority to uphold the law.

[SemajParlor]

You're too nice, DC Muskie. Xville is a clown.

[SemajParlor]

IF he went for his gun?....

See, I don't know. I wasn't there. I do know that the police officer does and should get the benefit of the doubt. He has been given the authority to uphold the law.

I believe this is a fair response. I envy your trust, but I respect it.

[Kahns Krazy]

This is an article I read about Ferguson that spells out some of the reasoning behind the looting the first night. http://www.orchestratedpulse.com/2014/08/ferguson-riots-political/

That site has a link to a story about how white people invented racism, so I'm not really going to refer to that as an unbiased look into social truth.


I think rational people from both "sides" of this issue recognize that. The rioting is too much of the focus when it should be on the incident that caused all of this. And it's not as simple as "Obey police or you'll die."

But it can be as simple as obey the police and you'll live, which is not the same as saying you should or will die if you disobey the police.

[GoMuskies]

IF he went for his gun?....



If he went for his gun, didn't get it and is running away, I don't think that's cause to shoot. Now, if he turns back around and comes back towards the officer....goodnight.

[Kahns Krazy]

I haven't said that rioting/looting changes anything.

I thought that article provided perspective on why some people did what they did in Ferguson. If I say something nasty to my wife because she upset me earlier in the day, I'm being immature and stupid, but it's still a rational, logical response in many ways. An eye for an eye (or a head for an eye, more often) is how most of the world functions, myself included at times, and I'm saying that's how many looters view what they have done in Ferguson, not as some random act of violence simply because they are sick, twisted individuals.

I'm not sure you know what rational means. You are using it to mean "not unexpected". That is not what it means.

[waggy]

If he went for his gun, didn't get it and is running away, I don't think that's cause to shoot. .


I think I disagree. If I'm an officer and a guy tries to take my gun, he has to be stopped.

[Xville]

You're too nice, DC Muskie. Xville is a clown.

Grow up.

[DC Muskie]

I'm not sure you know what rational means. You are using it to mean "not unexpected". That is not what it means.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o0h-xTGWyEM

[Kahns Krazy]

By your "logic" if the cop had just spent a few more minutes eating his donut, nobody gets shot. You can't allocate blame by looking at the first event in a chain. There's always an earlier one.

Not what I'm saying. I'm saying there was a point at which the victim had 100% control of the outcome of the situation and chose not to avail himself of that option. That was a bad decision. That decision should in no way lead to his death, but it did increase the odds of it.

It's how I can say with confidence that I am never going to get shot by a cop.

[waggy]

I believe this is a fair response. I envy your trust, but I respect it.


Young black men are rightfully a lot more suspicious of law enforcement than me though. Especially white law enforcement. I've had my share of interaction with the law, but is any of it really relatable to the experience of a black man. Probably not.

[LA Muskie]

You cannot resist, legally. A police officer has been given that authority by society.
Again, true. But resisting arrest is not, by itself, legal justification for the use of deadly force.

[blobfan]

...My point is that you don't separate poor people into "acceptable" and "unacceptable" categories. If you think you should, then may I suggest you go on a retreat and do some soul searching if you claim yourself as a Christian.
For the record, I do not claim to be a Christian. In my experience people that self-identify as Christian are really fundamentalists or literalists and reject Catholics and some Protestants as not being truly Christian like them.

Poverty is not a result of laziness. We shouldn't look at them as people who don't deserve this, and shouldn't expect that and then lecture them to work hard. While at the same time tolerate poor people who don't seem to bother us as much. I've actually worked with the poor for many years, and I have never had the experience that Xville has with them demanding that I pay for this and that. Not once.

Also, I'm just sticking with the poor topic, because frankly rioting and looting is simply stupid.
But Xville's perception is part of the problem, part of what is preventing a clear look at the causes and solutions for poverty. Both sides are guilty of that. I dont think you ridiculing and dismissing Xville's comments helps the situation.

Right, and I think it's racism that creates their economic plight. It's just my opinion, I don't expect anyone to agree with me.
Racism is usually a tool to keep the have-nots arguing with each other so they ignore the haves taking advantage and reaping all benefits. Poverty comes first and racism is used to reinforce it. Make everyone the same race and people will find another reason to create division.

I've seen a lot of "put yourself in the cops shoes" hypotheticals. It's interesting how people are ignoring the eye witness' account. He says that Brown did NOT reach for his gun. It's fine if you do not believe this witnesses' story for whatever the reason, but can we at least acknowledge that this is very legitimate evidence that there may have been an extreme injustice?
The validity of eyewitness testimony has been skewered recently. Recent studies and death row acquittals show it is VERY unreliable. One eyewitness that started telling his story on TV with an attorney by his side? So far I find him as credible as I do the cop. I'm waiting for someone or something to tip the balance.

[LA Muskie]

IF he went for his gun?....

See, I don't know. I wasn't there. I do know that the police officer does and should get the benefit of the doubt. He has been given the authority to uphold the law.
If he is no longer going for the gun, is no longer a threat, and in fact is retreating then no he absolutely cannot.

[LA Muskie]

I think I disagree. If I'm an officer and a guy tries to take my gun, he has to be stopped.

What if he gets away? Can you break into his house later that night and shoot him because, hours earlier, he tried to take your gun and hence had to be "stopped"?

[waggy]

Again, true. But resisting arrest is not, by itself, legal justification for the use of deadly force.


This probably all hinges on whether Brown went for the officers gun. Many might disagree that that is cause to shoot him, but I think it's justfied. Trying to take an officers gun from him is a very serious thing.

[LA Muskie]

Not what I'm saying. I'm saying there was a point at which the victim had 100% control of the outcome of the situation and chose not to avail himself of that option. That was a bad decision. That decision should in no way lead to his death, but it did increase the odds of it.
I agree. 100%.


It's how I can say with confidence that I am never going to get shot by a cop.
Famous last words.

[LA Muskie]

The validity of eyewitness testimony has been skewered recently. Recent studies and death row acquittals show it is VERY unreliable. One eyewitness that started telling his story on TV with an attorney by his side? So far I find him as credible as I do the cop. I'm waiting for someone or something to tip the balance.
For the most part I agree. But I view the friend as the more credible witness for now. Because at least he's willing to be identified.

[waggy]

If he is no longer going for the gun, is no longer a threat, and in fact is retreating then no he absolutely cannot.


What if he gets away? Can you break into his house later that night and shoot him because, hours earlier, he tried to take your gun and hence had to be "stopped"?


Going for an officers gun? And then just run away?


Seriously, walk out onto the street right now, find the nearest cop, try to take his gun and then run away and see what happens.

[LA Muskie]

This probably all hinges on whether Brown went for the officers gun. Many might disagree that that is cause to shoot him, but I think it's justfied. Trying to take an officers gun from him is a very serious thing.
During the scuffle? Absolutely. After the risk has ceased? Nope. Just as absolutely.

[LA Muskie]

Going for an officers gun? And then just run away?

Seriously, walk out onto the street right now, find the nearest cop, try to take his gun and then run away and see what happens.
I'm not taking that bait, Waggy...

[waggy]

You are insane. You can't go for an officers gun and then run away. That's not just stupidity - taking a police officers weapon is a serious threat, and you are now viewed as a hell bent dangerous person.

And should be shot.

[DC Muskie]

But Xville's perception is part of the problem, part of what is preventing a clear look at the causes and solutions for poverty. Both sides are guilty of that. I dont think you ridiculing and dismissing Xville's comments helps the situation.

I can assure you that my comments on any subject never help. If I only had that power.

But I will always point out how silly the argument of "Poor people need to get a job!" actually is.

I'm not sure what "other side" is guilty of though.

Look it's really not hard to work with the poor. They are all over, and anyone at anytime can spend time with them. I think that's how you change perception, by getting your hands dirty. Help someone trying to read, help someone file for SNAP, or unemployment, whatever. It's not easy, none of it. But we really shouldn't throw out ideas that there is a percentage, any percentage of the poor who's behavior is unacceptable to those of us who don't happen to be poor. I'm not naive to think there are no lazy people who also happen to be poor, but that is not a justification to point out how annoying those people, (who I have never met) are in my life.

[LA Muskie]

You can't go for an officers gun and then run away. That's not just stupidity - taking a police officers weapon is a serious threat, and you are now viewed as a hell bent dangerous person.

True.



And should be shot.
False. At least to the extent the risk has ceased to exist.

[waggy]

False. At least to the extent the risk has ceased to exist.

I don't thnk there are many guys walking around that can relate what happened when they tried to take an officers gun. Reason being is they generally get shot. You really want to set the precedent that it's okay to go after an officers gun, but when unsuccessful just run away. That's having zero respect for the authority of police officers, and I hope to God that never becomes accepted practice.

[LA Muskie]

I don't there are many guys walking around that can relate what happened when they tried to take an officers gun. Reason being is they generally get shot. You really want to set the precedent that it's okay to go after an officers gun, but when unsuccessful just run away. That's having zero respect for the authority of police officers, and I hope to God that never becomes accepted practice.
I love ya, Waggy. But I'm glad as hell you're not a cop. You seem to think they have pretty damn wide latitude to use deadly force. In reality, they don't.

I'm not saying a cop wouldn't WANT to shoot in the circumstance you describe. But good cops would resist the temptation. And the bad ones must face the consequences.

[waggy]

I love ya, Waggy. But I'm glad as hell you're not a cop. You seem to think they have pretty damn wide latitude to use deadly force. In reality, they don't.

I'm not saying a cop wouldn't WANT to shoot in the circumstance you describe. But good cops would resist the temptation. And the bad ones must face the consequences.


You should be shot for writing stupid shit on the internet.

[fellahmuskie]

I'm not sure you know what rational means. You are using it to mean "not unexpected". That is not what it means.

I may have been wrong and it may not have been rational, but I do think that rioting in Ferguson could have been rational, as well as in other places where rioting takes place. Perhaps I'm wrong. I'll get back to you if I change my mind.

[LA Muskie]

According to this LA Times article (http://www.latimes.com/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-michael-brown-ferguson-missouri-shooting-20140811-story.html), there are now at least two eyewitness accounts (i.e., another one in addition to "the friend").

[fellahmuskie]

Racism is usually a tool to keep the have-nots arguing with each other so they ignore the haves taking advantage and reaping all benefits. Poverty comes first and racism is used to reinforce it. Make everyone the same race and people will find another reason to create division.

I guess I view economic and racist discrimination as parallel issues. Yes, race is used to divide and is often a valuable political tool. I think, however, that a poor black man and a poor white man are in different circumstances a lot of the time. The poor black man faces more hurdles than the poor white man.

[Muskie]

So.... (Looks around curiously).....ready for some basketball?

[waggy]

And LA I forgot to mention, but I also love you.

[xu82]

So, to recap:
* Rioting and looting are bad and should be frowned upon.
* All poor people are not lazy and evil.
* Don't try to take a policeman's gun - bad things could happen, even if they really shouldn't be quite that bad.
* Despite our differences, we all have at least one thing in common.
* Basketball can't come soon enough.

Does that about cover it?

[GoMuskies]

Good summary. Can you please summarize the 4,382 post conference carousel thread for us, too? At the end of the day, I think that thread killed Jimmy 2X.

[xu82]

Good summary. Can you please summarize the 4,382 post conference carousel thread for us, too? At the end of the day, I think that thread killed Jimmy 2X.
Can I get away with:
A) Change happens
B) It could be good or it could be bad

Otherwise, it's far too daunting a task. I stay away from that topic like the plague. Unless you're talking ebola, because that was imported into our neck of the woods and I don't know where to run. I hope they're as smart as they think they are.

[X-band '01]

Summarizing Pet Peeves would be the ultimate task.

[BBC 08]

Why are police wearing camo? Why are they acting like an armed military force towards a peaceful protest?

Man, fuck the police.

[SemajParlor]

This is starting to spin way out of control. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/08/13/reporters-arrested-ferguson-ryan-reilly-wesley-lowery_n_5676841.html

[waggy]

They (ferguson pd) ain't looking very bright are they?

[DC Muskie]

Officers slammed me into a fountain soda machine because I was confused about which door they were asking me to walk out of

Slamming people into soda fountains, shooting people who don't move out of the road quick enough, the FDP must think they are in Iraq.

[xu82]

Summarizing Pet Peeves would be the ultimate task.
I'll start:
1) Ebola (does that count?)

OK, your turn.


(Before I get grief, it seems they're making some progress, and it is on the other side of town....yeah, yeah, complicated. Hoping and praying for those good people.)

[STL_XUfan]

This is starting to spin way out of control. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/08/13/reporters-arrested-ferguson-ryan-reilly-wesley-lowery_n_5676841.html

It is impressive the number of PR screw ups each side can have during these protests.

[SemajParlor]

Officers slammed me into a fountain soda machine because I was confused about which door they were asking me to walk out of

Slamming people into soda fountains, shooting people who don't move out of the road quick enough, the FDP must think they are in Iraq.

The way they are prepared for whatever they think might happen sure seems like it. Tanks, camouflage, aiming guns, shooting tear gas into crowds? I have a bad feeling this is not going to end well at all...

[STL_XUfan]

The way they are prepared for whatever they think might happen sure seems like it. Tanks, camouflage, aiming guns, shooting tear gas into crowds? I have a bad feeling this is not going to end well at all...

Jungle camouflage in the suburbs has to be incredibly effective.

[xu82]

Jungle camouflage in the suburbs has to be incredibly effective.

I think I'd be too concerned with the tanks to notice the camouflage. I'd be in a hurry to get home, change my shorts and wonder why I was in such a place.

[SemajParlor]

2 other witnesses have come forward. That's now 3 corroborating stories that say Brown never reached for a gun, tried to run away from the cop, was shot, got down on his knees and put his hands in the air only to be shot more. This is starting to get ugly for the still unnamed officer. http://www.cnn.com/video/data/2.0/video/bestoftv/2014/08/14/cnn-tonight-piaget-crenshaw-eyewitnesses.cnn.html

[DC Muskie]

The reporters who were arrested yesterday were released. A FPD officer told them, the chief was "doing them a favor."

Wow. Just wow.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/in-ferguson-washington-post-reporter-wesley-lowery-gives-account-of-his-arrest/2014/08/13/0fe25c0e-2359-11e4-86ca-6f03cbd15c1a_story.html

[bleedXblue]

This is really starting to not look good for the St. Louis police. They need to grow a pair and come forth with what they know. If the cop is at fault (which it is starting to appear he is), he should be formally suspended without pay at the very least.......possibly even detaining him and an arrest should be considered as well.

[NY44]

I think I disagree. If I'm an officer and a guy tries to take my gun, he has to be stopped.

Yes, if you assault an officer you have to be arrested. Killed? Absolutely not.

[NY44]

Not that it matters if the cop knew he was unarmed, but he'd have to be a pretty big idiot not to know, even by his own story. Hey, this kid is trying to take my gun. He failed to take it, I still have it. Now he's running away. He probably has another one and wants to hurt people with it. I'd better kill him.

[nuts4xu]

You are insane. You can't go for an officers gun and then run away. That's not just stupidity - taking a police officers weapon is a serious threat, and you are now viewed as a hell bent dangerous person.

And should be shot.

Your opinions are nothing, if not extreme. I see why someone who tried to take a cop's gun would be considered "hell bent dangerous", but it certainly doesn't justify shooting the guy. If he was trying to take the cops' gun, it seems logical he wanted a weapon and didn't have one. Otherwise, why would he even need to reach for a cop's gun? If he had one, wouldn't he have just blown the cop's head off?

If someone is running away, the direct threat is now running away. I can't tell you what the cop was thinking, and I usually give the police the benefit of the doubt. But it is getting very difficult in this case.

I can't recall any case where a suspect did exactly what a cop told him/her to do and still got shot. If you do exactly what the police ask, and avoid reaching for their guns, or fighting with them, they don't usually shoot and kill you.

[Pete Delkus]

Your opinions are nothing, if not extreme. I see why someone who tried to take a cop's gun would be considered "hell bent dangerous", but it certainly doesn't justify shooting the guy. If he was trying to take the cops' gun, it seems logical he wanted a weapon and didn't have one. Otherwise, why would he even need to reach for a cop's gun? If he had one, wouldn't he have just blown the cop's head off?

If someone is running away, the direct threat is now running away. I can't tell you what the cop was thinking, and I usually give the police the benefit of the doubt. But it is getting very difficult in this case.

I can't recall any case where a suspect did exactly what a cop told him/her to do and still got shot. If you do exactly what the police ask, and avoid reaching for their guns, or fighting with them, they don't usually shoot and kill you.

Um, no matter how much training you have, this is what they are dealing with day in-day out. (see MHettle comments) 50 states, hundred of thousand of cops, and this type of stress. I'm shocked this doesn't happen every single day...it might.

I feel bad for the family of Michael Brown, and I'm not a fan of a police state. However, over 4th of July weekend in Chicago, 14 people were shot and murdered. 84 people total were shot in City of Chicago alone.

My question is where is the outrage every week about these shootings?

Social media (full of fellow 20-40 white males) is so offended by this affront to a unarmed minority, but doesn't have fortitude to address the larger problem, or enable awful actions by making excuses.

[kyxu]

Anyone know why the two kids were told to stop and get on the ground in the first place? It was broad daylight and they were walking through their own neighborhood.

[bleedXblue]

Anyone know why the two kids were told to stop and get on the ground in the first place? It was broad daylight and they were walking through their own neighborhood.

As I understand they were walking in the street (I don't know exactly where) and were told to get out of the street and onto the sidewalk. I think from there they either didn't immediately move or maybe not quickly enough for the officer and that's where this whole thing started to escalate.

[XU 87]

I feel bad for the family of Michael Brown, and I'm not a fan of a police state. However, over 4th of July weekend in Chicago, 14 people were shot and murdered. 84 people total were shot in City of Chicago alone.

My question is where is the outrage every week about these shootings?



Sadly, black on black crime and particularly murder, which is a relatively frequent occurrence, appears not to be a great concern for the national media, so-called civil rights leaders or even our President. It's truly sad.

[SemajParlor]

Anyone know why the two kids were told to stop and get on the ground in the first place? It was broad daylight and they were walking through their own neighborhood.

Weren't told to get on the ground. Again, we still haven't heard the officers testimony or his side of the story. However, per the witnesses account the cop told them to get out the street, made a u turn, opened the door into them which closed the door back on him. At this point the officer grabbed Mike Brown by the neck through the window. There was a struggle. 3 witnesses have said that it looked as though Brown, standing on the outside of the window, was trying to wrestle free and get away , and did not reach for his gun. The cop shot from inside the vehicle and hit Brown. Brown then ran away 20-30 feet from the cop car... got down on his knees and put his arms up saying he didn't have a gun. The officer walked over to him and shot him more times.

On the contrary, the official police response has been that Brown tried to attack and take the police officer's gun, which prompted this reaction from the officer....We'll have to wait for more details ( I hope) about what actually went down according to the officer himself.

This is a messy situation to say the least.

[XU 87]

Weren't told to get on the ground. Again, we still haven't heard the officers testimony or his side of the story. However, per the witnesses account the cop told them to get out the street, made a u turn, opened the door into them which closed the door back on him. At this point the officer grabbed Mike Brown by the neck through the window. There was a struggle. 3 witnesses have said that it looked as though Brown, standing on the outside of the window, was trying to wrestle free and get away , and did not reach for his gun. The cop shot from inside the vehicle and hit Brown. Brown then ran away 20-30 feet from the cop car... got down on his hands and put his arms up saying he didn't have a gun. He was then shot a handful of more times.

I am skeptical of that story. According to that story, the officer committed pre-meditated murder, out in the open, right in front of a minimum of three witnesses. If true, I'm surprised this psychopath cop also didn't kill the witnesses as well.

[SemajParlor]

Sadly, black on black crime and particularly murder, which is a relatively frequent occurrence, appears not to be a great concern for the national media, so-called civil rights leaders or even our President. It's truly sad.

Read a stat (can't confirm the validity) that 93% of African American homicides in the US were from other AA's

[NY44]

Supposedly Anonymous leaked the officers name on their twitter account @TheAnonMessage. Oh boy. It's pretty scary to think that they could have the wrong guy or this is a hoax.

[DC Muskie]

However, over 4th of July weekend in Chicago, 14 people were shot and murdered. 84 people total were shot in City of Chicago alone.

My question is where is the outrage every week about these shootings?

Social media (full of fellow 20-40 white males) is so offended by this affront to a unarmed minority, but doesn't have fortitude to address the larger problem, or enable awful actions by making excuses.


Sadly, black on black crime and particularly murder, which is a relatively frequent occurrence, appears not to be a great concern for the national media, so-called civil rights leaders or even our President. It's truly sad.

Please stop with these bullshit narratives that people should be more outraged because of "black and black murder rates" and dragging the president like you always seem to want to do 87. You are a freaking parrot when it comes to this topic. What is exactly is the larger issue we aren't addressing when an unarmed black kid is killed by a white officer? And how does what happened in Chicago have anything to do with it?

84% of the white people that are killed are done so by other white people. What the hell does that have to do with the situation we are dealing with in St. Louis? Should we not be outraged when people are shooting and arresting people from the press, because 3.4 million people each year die in Africa due to water related disease?

If you don't like the coverage of this, then don't watch it. Don't participate in the discussion here.

THis is a big deal, and it's not going away. Sorry if that is wrong and we should focus on other tragedies.

[DC Muskie]

I am skeptical of that story. According to that story, the officer committed pre-meditated murder, out in the open, right in front of a minimum of three witnesses. If true, I'm surprised this psychopath cop also didn't kill the witnesses as well.

The way the police have acted in the last few days, nothing surprises me.

[OH.X.MI]

Supposedly Anonymous leaked the officers name on their twitter account @TheAnonMessage. Oh boy. It's pretty scary to think that they could have the wrong guy or this is a hoax.

Extremely dangerous and irresponsible by Anonymous. This could spiral out of control very quickly.

[XU 87]

Please stop with these bullshit narratives that people should be more outraged because of "black and black murder rates" and dragging the president like you always seem to want to do 87. You are a freaking parrot when it comes to this topic. What is exactly is the larger issue we aren't addressing when an unarmed black kid is killed by a white officer? And how does what happened in Chicago have anything to do with it?

84% of the white people that are killed are done so by other white people. What the hell does that have to do with the situation we are dealing with in St. Louis? Should we not be outraged when people are shooting and arresting people from the press, because 3.4 million people each year die in Africa due to water related disease?

If you don't like the coverage of this, then don't watch it. Don't participate in the discussion here.

THis is a big deal, and it's not going away. Sorry if that is wrong and we should focus on other tragedies.

Why are you so against discussion of anything that you disagree with? Your view is, "I believe in free speech as long as it's speech I agree with. If I don't agree with what you say, then shut the hell up."

And your post proves exactly what I was saying. In that regard, "thank you".

[bobbiemcgee]

The Rev. Al has shown up to calm things down a bit.

[DC Muskie]

Why are you so against discussion of anything that you disagree with? Your view is, "I believe in free speech as long as it's speech I agree with. If I don't agree with what you say, then shut the hell up."

And your post proves exactly what I was saying. In that regard, "thank you".
See this is EXACTLY what I'm talking about.

What discussion would you like to have 87? One subject that has nothing to do with another? Let's discuss the lack of outrage that the City of LA(the number of people in Africa who die) is wiped out every year because they don't have proper working toilets? Anyone who disagrees with me is against free speech!

DO you understand how freedom of speech works? You can say whatever the hell you want, and I can respond by telling you that is ridiculous nonsense and then back it up with facts. There are actual people who are actually violating free speech, but you want to focus on how you have been supposedly wronged by me. Okay. Like I can stop you from posting nonsense. You run that same gag all the time and it proves nothing other than it's your "go to" move when people tell you that you are full of shit.

Do you have a response how the narrative the lack of outrage regarding the Chicago situation last year is sad considering we seemed overly outraged with the current one in St. Louis? And how each other fit together?

[SemajParlor]

The Rev. Al has shown up to calm things down a bit.

NOW things are officially back to order. I just wish he would go away...

[DC Muskie]

NOW things are officially back to order. I just wish he would go away...

Ugh. Never. That guy still owes me $600.

[XU 87]

DO you understand how freedom of speech works? You can say whatever the hell you want, and I can respond by telling you that is ridiculous nonsense and then back it up with facts.

Never mind. Just adding fuel to the fire.

[X-band '01]

Sadly, black on black crime and particularly murder, which is a relatively frequent occurrence, appears not to be a great concern for the national media, so-called civil rights leaders or even our President. It's truly sad.

As bad as black-on-black crime is, it's a MUCH different matter when a law enforcement officer shoots an unarmed person, regardless of race. It's looking more and more like there wasn't enough provocation or danger to this cop's life to warrant a killing like this.

Even then, I get that there has to be a significant police presence to deter further looting and violence. It looks bad when police are wearing camo gear as opposed to standard riot gear, and it's unconscionable that police are arresting/attacking credentialed media members who were simply doing their job in a reasonable manner.

[X-band '01]

The Rev. Al has shown up to calm things down a bit.

We have another Reverend Al sighting? I thought he was already in St. Louis back on Monday to speak with the Ferguson citizens and local officials.

[GoMuskies]

I wish the rioters would go burn down the new Busch Stadium.

[NY44]

That's not what you do. You don't argue facts. You get mad, and then call people names, mock people and then basically tell them to "shut up" when they don't agree with you. See your post above- you hurled a few insults my way and then essentially told me to "shut up" and stop posting.

...but really. What does black-on-black crime have to do with police-on-black crime?

[drudy23]

...but really. What does black-on-black crime have to do with police-on-black crime?

The same way that thug behavior and violent culture has to do with black-on-black crime and police-on-black crime. They're not 100% connected, but they're connected.

[NY44]

The same way that thug behavior and violent culture has to do with black-on-black crime and police-on-black crime. They're not 100% connected, but they're connected.

I'm sorry, but I don't see the connection. Can you elaborate? Specifics to this issue would be great.

[Pete Delkus]

See this is EXACTLY what I'm talking about.

What discussion would you like to have 87? One subject that has nothing to do with another? Let's discuss the lack of outrage that the City of LA(the number of people in Africa who die) is wiped out every year because they don't have proper working toilets? Anyone who disagrees with me is against free speech!

DO you understand how freedom of speech works? You can say whatever the hell you want, and I can respond by telling you that is ridiculous nonsense and then back it up with facts. There are actual people who are actually violating free speech, but you want to focus on how you have been supposedly wronged by me. Okay. Like I can stop you from posting nonsense. You run that same gag all the time and it proves nothing other than it's your "go to" move when people tell you that you are full of shit.

Do you have a response how the narrative the lack of outrage regarding the Chicago situation last year is sad considering we seemed overly outraged with the current one in St. Louis? And how each other fit together?

DC,

Sorry, you are right...


2014 - Residents told News 4 they very concerned about crime after 16 people were shot in St. Louis during July 4 weekend.
During Independence Day weekend, police confirm 16 people were shot and three were killed. 21st Ward Alderman Antonio French told News 4 he believes having a large number of officers dedicated to Fair St. Louis’ security gave criminals an opportunity.
“We have a finite amount of resources so whenever resources are moved from one area to another area, that’s less that could have been there policing the area,” French said.
St. Louis Police Chief Sam Dotson told News 4 the department does not publicize how many officers are assigned to a particular area. St. Louis was not the only city to suffer from Independence Day violence, 60 people were shot in Chicago, and 14 were killed.
Statistics show crime is down 11 percent in St. Louis in 2014, along with gun violence, which has declined by 18 percent. Despite the drop-off, homicides have increased by 18 percent.
James Clark with Better Family Life told News 4 the issue goes beyond police and the strategies they use to combat crime.
“The police department cannot deal with this issue of crime and violence. This is a family issue and this is a neighborhood issue,” Clark said.


But stories about shootings, police, concern, outrage, and death have nothing in common...

[BBC 08]

I wish the rioters would go burn down the new Busch Stadium.

How DARE you! And to think I was considering buying you a beer if I ended up going to the Louisville ND game.

[drudy23]

Environment - go walk the beat for 1 month in this neighborhood and tell me how safe you feel. The constant violence, drug dealing, drug taking, and culture of intimidation and fear. Let that be your office for one month. The constant disrespect for authority, the complete lack of respect for life...any life (whether it's a fellow Black man or a White police officer). These people will kill you and not even blink...no remorse, no regret, no care. Enter that environment and tell me your safety radar isn't at its peak 24/7. Tell me those looters and rioters in those CNN videos are going to their day jobs the next day. It's what drug infested communities do...they prey on each other with violence...and that violence will inevitably be part of their neighborhood, whether it's manifested through those that live in it, or those trying to protect it. The violence is a consequence of the whole effed up enviornment. Honestly, I'm surprised this doesn't happen more often. The restraint MOST cops use in dealing with neighborhoods that simply don't give a shit is heroic in itself.

So yes, black on black violence is most definitely related to police on black violence. It's inevitable.

[paulxu]

How DARE you! And to think I was considering buying you a beer if I ended up going to the Louisville ND game.

He got lost for a moment there. He thought this was the Cardinals Hater thread.

[blobfan]

Things sure have taken a turn since yesterday. Rioters with molotov cocktails, SWAT in riot gear pointing high powered rifles at protestors, arresting journalists for not leaving a restaurant when ordered. Heck, the Ferguson chief doesn't even know what officers are responsible for what actions. I'm starting to believe this department really could have a cop so bat$h!t crazy that he'd start a fight with a jaywalker and use that as an excuse to shoot the guy when he doesn't immediately fall to the ground. I thought Cincy handled the situation badly in 2001 but Ferguson/St Louis has us beat.

[xavierj]

Environment - go walk the beat for 1 month in this neighborhood and tell me how safe you feel. The constant violence, drug dealing, drug taking, and culture of intimidation and fear. Let that be your office for one month. The constant disrespect for authority, the complete lack of respect for life...any life (whether it's a fellow Black man or a White police officer). These people will kill you and not even blink...no remorse, no regret, no care. Enter that environment and tell me your safety radar isn't at its peak 24/7. Tell me those looters and rioters in those CNN videos are going to their day jobs the next day. It's what drug infested communities do...they prey on each other with violence...and that violence will inevitably be part of their neighborhood, whether it's manifested through those that live in it, or those trying to protect it. The violence is a consequence of the whole effed up enviornment. Honestly, I'm surprised this doesn't happen more often. The restraint MOST cops use in dealing with neighborhoods that simply don't give a shit is heroic in itself.

So yes, black on black violence is most definitely related to police on black violence. It's inevitable.

You can say the same thing about Avondale in Cincinnati. I work in that area and the police try but you couldn't pay me enough to be a cop in that area. Scary place.

[DC Muskie]

Never mind. Just adding fuel to the fire.

Basically you have nothing to argue because your argument holds no water. Instead you focus on what insults are thrown your way and the imaginary slight of me telling you to stop posting. You really don't understand what elements make up a discussion. You stop once you feel your feelings get hurt.

It's nonsense to post about misplaced outrage. I'm sorry if you feel me telling you to stop promoting that nonsense is infringing on your right to post. I asked you to make your argument, and yet you didn't. You and I both know I can't prevent you from from saying the nonsensical things you write from time to time.

You take stands on things, then when people call you out on them, you cry about freedom of speech. Like I'm supposed to accept your nonsense. Look at the stats, white people commit way more crimes then black people, but we don't have black cops shooting white kids in white neighborhoods. Your argument of how sad the misplaced the outrage of the media and the president has nothing to do with the current situation. You have nothing, other than feeling slighted.

Good talk.

[Kahns Krazy]

Things sure have taken a turn since yesterday. Rioters with molotov cocktails, SWAT in riot gear pointing high powered rifles at protestors, arresting journalists for not leaving a restaurant when ordered. Heck, the Ferguson chief doesn't even know what officers are responsible for what actions. I'm starting to believe this department really could have a cop so bat$h!t crazy that he'd start a fight with a jaywalker and use that as an excuse to shoot the guy when he doesn't immediately fall to the ground. I thought Cincy handled the situation badly in 2001 but Ferguson/St Louis has us beat.

This kind of sums up my thought change in the last 24 hours as well. WTF is going on out there?

[DC Muskie]

DC,

Sorry, you are right...


2014 - Residents told News 4 they very concerned about crime after 16 people were shot in St. Louis during July 4 weekend.
During Independence Day weekend, police confirm 16 people were shot and three were killed. 21st Ward Alderman Antonio French told News 4 he believes having a large number of officers dedicated to Fair St. Louis’ security gave criminals an opportunity.
“We have a finite amount of resources so whenever resources are moved from one area to another area, that’s less that could have been there policing the area,” French said.
St. Louis Police Chief Sam Dotson told News 4 the department does not publicize how many officers are assigned to a particular area. St. Louis was not the only city to suffer from Independence Day violence, 60 people were shot in Chicago, and 14 were killed.
Statistics show crime is down 11 percent in St. Louis in 2014, along with gun violence, which has declined by 18 percent. Despite the drop-off, homicides have increased by 18 percent.
James Clark with Better Family Life told News 4 the issue goes beyond police and the strategies they use to combat crime.
“The police department cannot deal with this issue of crime and violence. This is a family issue and this is a neighborhood issue,” Clark said.


But stories about shootings, police, concern, outrage, and death have nothing in common...

I'm at a loss trying to understand your point. How does this have anything to do with the current situation? Why are we not allowed to be properly outraged, especially when we have cops shooting and arresting the people who are there to cover this?

Your quote is about crimes. What does that have to do with a black kid getting shot by a white cop in a black neighborhood? Should I ignore the treatment of the press? Where should my focus be?

Maybe '87 can chime in, because this sounds like you are trying to force my attention to something else. Do I have the freedom to choose what I should be outraged about?

Is being outraged going to turn this current situation into something better? Because if I had focused more of my outrage on the 4th of July incidents you keep quoting, they would stop? And if they did stop, what's the problem with being outraged about this, since it seems liked being outraged about anything is a good thing. Or is it not?

I need to figure out how much outrage I have so I can spread the correct amount to all situations.

[Kahns Krazy]

...but really. What does black-on-black crime have to do with police-on-black crime?


The same way that thug behavior and violent culture has to do with black-on-black crime and police-on-black crime. They're not 100% connected, but they're connected.


I'm sorry, but I don't see the connection. Can you elaborate? Specifics to this issue would be great.


Environment - go walk the beat for 1 month in this neighborhood and tell me how safe you feel. The constant violence, drug dealing, drug taking, and culture of intimidation and fear. Let that be your office for one month. The constant disrespect for authority, the complete lack of respect for life...any life (whether it's a fellow Black man or a White police officer). These people will kill you and not even blink...no remorse, no regret, no care. Enter that environment and tell me your safety radar isn't at its peak 24/7. Tell me those looters and rioters in those CNN videos are going to their day jobs the next day. It's what drug infested communities do...they prey on each other with violence...and that violence will inevitably be part of their neighborhood, whether it's manifested through those that live in it, or those trying to protect it. The violence is a consequence of the whole effed up enviornment. Honestly, I'm surprised this doesn't happen more often. The restraint MOST cops use in dealing with neighborhoods that simply don't give a shit is heroic in itself.

So yes, black on black violence is most definitely related to police on black violence. It's inevitable.

I think that is a fair analysis, but it's not limited to black. Criminal activity draws police involvement. Violent activity draws potential violent response. If you map out violent criminal activity and map out incidents of police violence, I think you would find a very, very strong correlation.

[xavierj]

I saw a black teenager get shot last year outside of our store. He was shot by another black teenager. You know how long it took for the police and ambulance to show up? 20 minutes. You want to know why? Because they don't want to have to defend themselves and deal with the aftermath. They let the guys who shoot move on because of crap like this. You know another thing, this story was not covered by one person in the media. This has nothing to do with he riots in St. Louis but this is how riots are now avoided in Cincinnati.

[DC Muskie]

Environment - go walk the beat for 1 month in this neighborhood and tell me how safe you feel. The constant violence, drug dealing, drug taking, and culture of intimidation and fear. Let that be your office for one month. The constant disrespect for authority, the complete lack of respect for life...any life (whether it's a fellow Black man or a White police officer). These people will kill you and not even blink...no remorse, no regret, no care. Enter that environment and tell me your safety radar isn't at its peak 24/7. Tell me those looters and rioters in those CNN videos are going to their day jobs the next day. It's what drug infested communities do...they prey on each other with violence...and that violence will inevitably be part of their neighborhood, whether it's manifested through those that live in it, or those trying to protect it. The violence is a consequence of the whole effed up enviornment. Honestly, I'm surprised this doesn't happen more often. The restraint MOST cops use in dealing with neighborhoods that simply don't give a shit is heroic in itself.

So yes, black on black violence is most definitely related to police on black violence. It's inevitable.

Drudy, do you feel safe in white neighborhoods?

Especially when you considering "with respect to aggravated assault, whites led blacks 2-1 in arrests; in forcible-rape cases, whites led all racial and ethnic groups by more than 2-1. And in larceny theft, whites led blacks, again, more than 2-1." (DOJ stats)

You are surprised there is not not more police and black violence? Wow.

[XU 87]

Basically you have nothing to argue because your argument holds no water. Instead you focus on what insults are thrown your way and the imaginary slight of me telling you to stop posting. You really don't understand what elements make up a discussion. You stop once you feel your feelings get hurt.

It's nonsense to post about misplaced outrage. I'm sorry if you feel me telling you to stop promoting that nonsense is infringing on your right to post. I asked you to make your argument, and yet you didn't. You and I both know I can't prevent you from from saying the nonsensical things you write from time to time.

You take stands on things, then when people call you out on them, you cry about freedom of speech. Like I'm supposed to accept your nonsense. Look at the stats, white people commit way more crimes then black people, but we don't have black cops shooting white kids in white neighborhoods. Your argument of how sad the misplaced the outrage of the media and the president has nothing to do with the current situation. You have nothing, other than feeling slighted.

Good talk.

I deleted my post because I thought it was a little insulting towards you. But I find it somewhat interesting that you still felt it necessary to respond to my deleted post, and to respond in the manner that you just did.

That said, if you want to read what I wrote, NY 44 quoted it before I deleted it.

In short, I said you don't argue facts. You mock, insult and personalize everything (see your post above, for example). You basically try to "shout down" anyone who disagrees with you. For the most part, you are incapable of holding an adult discussion on issues you disagree with. (I guess I can hurl an insult your way as well.)

I know from past experience that you absolutely have to have the last word. So have at it.

[DC Muskie]

I saw a black teenager get shot last year outside of our store. He was shot by another black teenager. You know how long it took for the police and ambulance to show up? 20 minutes. You want to know why? Because they don't want to have to defend themselves and deal with the aftermath. They let the guys who shoot move on because of crap like this. You know another thing, this story was not covered by one person in the media. This has nothing to do with he riots in St. Louis but this is how riots are now avoided in Cincinnati.

I hope you came forward to give the police a description of the assailant.

Also, I'd be eager to learn to how you came to the conclusion that the police waited 20 minutes to arrive because they didn't want to deal with aftermath. Does everything stop after 20 minutes? Why come at all?

[waggy]

Drudy, do you feel safe in white neighborhoods?

Especially when you considering "with respect to aggravated assault, whites led blacks 2-1 in arrests; in forcible-rape cases, whites led all racial and ethnic groups by more than 2-1. And in larceny theft, whites led blacks, again, more than 2-1." (DOJ stats)

You are surprised there is not not more police and black violence? Wow.


Got a link for this?

[xavierj]

I hope you came forward to give the police a description of the assailant.

Also, I'd be eager to learn to how you came to the conclusion that the police waited 20 minutes to arrive because they didn't want to deal with aftermath. Does everything stop after 20 minutes? Why come at all?

I did come forward and provided tape to the police. I was curious why it took so long since we are like 60 seconds from he police department and firehouse and my manager called 911 right after it happened. I asked a friend of mine who used to work for CPD and he explained to me. Made sense. Any other questions? Do you want to know about the nine year old girl killed or the 17 year found dead in the bushes in the same area last month?

[Xville]

Drudy, do you feel safe in white neighborhoods?

Especially when you considering "with respect to aggravated assault, whites led blacks 2-1 in arrests; in forcible-rape cases, whites led all racial and ethnic groups by more than 2-1. And in larceny theft, whites led blacks, again, more than 2-1." (DOJ stats)

You are surprised there is not not more police and black violence? Wow.

I can find plenty of ridiculous stats too...young black men commit 50% of the murders in the United states and are 14 times more likely to murder than a young white male. That is from a time article in 2013..you know what it proves? About as much as your ridiculous stat.

DC you can close your eyes as much as you want but walk along the city of ferguson and then walk along south city in Saint Louis and tell me where you feel safer...and I am talking before these riots occurred. There are areas in every city black white red purple that are safer than others and where people are made to feel safer than others. Nothing drudy said was incorrect. But you work with the poor so you know more than everyone else

[DC Muskie]

Got a link for this?

I got two:

http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/htus8008.pdf

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2010/crime-in-the-u.s.-2010/tables/table-43

[SemajParlor]

Environment - go walk the beat for 1 month in this neighborhood and tell me how safe you feel. The constant violence, drug dealing, drug taking, and culture of intimidation and fear. Let that be your office for one month. The constant disrespect for authority, the complete lack of respect for life...any life (whether it's a fellow Black man or a White police officer). These people will kill you and not even blink...no remorse, no regret, no care. Enter that environment and tell me your safety radar isn't at its peak 24/7. Tell me those looters and rioters in those CNN videos are going to their day jobs the next day. It's what drug infested communities do...they prey on each other with violence...and that violence will inevitably be part of their neighborhood, whether it's manifested through those that live in it, or those trying to protect it. The violence is a consequence of the whole effed up enviornment. Honestly, I'm surprised this doesn't happen more often. The restraint MOST cops use in dealing with neighborhoods that simply don't give a shit is heroic in itself.

So yes, black on black violence is most definitely related to police on black violence. It's inevitable.

There were 2 murders in Ferguson, Missouri in 2012. Don't let ignorance and presumptions made by some influence your stance.

[Xville]

There were 2 murders in Ferguson, Missouri in 2012. Don't let ignorance and presumptions made by some influence your stance.

You don't know what you are talking about so just stop. I was born and raised in st. Louis and know the area way better than you do. Stats are only part of the story.

[DC Muskie]

I did come forward and provided tape to the police. I was curious why it took so long since we are like 60 seconds from he police department and firehouse and my manager called 911 right after it happened. I asked a friend of mine who used to work for CPD and he explained to me. Made sense. Any other questions? Do you want to know about the nine year old girl killed or the 17 year found dead in the bushes in the same area last month?

Well good! I do have some other questions..

Have they arrested this person? Has it gone to trial? Will you be a witness?

I'm still trying to understand the "aftermath" and why 20 minutes is an acceptable amount of time to come. Did your friend explain that further? Were they afraid when they arrived people would shoot them or something?

I didn't hear about the 9 year old or the 17 year old. I am now properly outraged. Thank you for sharing those horrific stories and I hope you can help provide some actual justice to your neighborhood. I will keep outraging from here.

[drudy23]

I think that is a fair analysis, but it's not limited to black. Criminal activity draws police involvement. Violent activity draws potential violent response. If you map out violent criminal activity and map out incidents of police violence, I think you would find a very, very strong correlation.

Bingo...I will start to believe this is a "cop problem" when these type of things start consistently happening in Mason, OH.

[xavierj]

Well good! I do have some other questions..

Have they arrested this person? Has it gone to trial? Will you be a witness?

I'm still trying to understand the "aftermath" and why 20 minutes is an acceptable amount of time to come. Did your friend explain that further? Were they afraid when they arrived people would shoot them or something?

I didn't hear about the 9 year old or the 17 year old. I am now properly outraged. Thank you for sharing those horrific stories and I hope you can help provide some actual justice to your neighborhood. I will keep outraging from here.

It's a major problem but douche bags like yourself like to avoid it and only care about what happens in the media.

[drudy23]

There were 2 murders in Ferguson, Missouri in 2012. Don't let ignorance and presumptions made by some influence your stance.

Like I said...go spend a month there.

[xavierj]

Well good! I do have some other questions..

Have they arrested this person? Has it gone to trial? Will you be a witness?

I'm still trying to understand the "aftermath" and why 20 minutes is an acceptable amount of time to come. Did your friend explain that further? Were they afraid when they arrived people would shoot them or something?

I didn't hear about the 9 year old or the 17 year old. I am now properly outraged. Thank you for sharing those horrific stories and I hope you can help provide some actual justice to your neighborhood. I will keep outraging from here.

Okay they wait so they don't get shot or have to shoot. Why is that so hard to grasp? They are dammed either way.

[SemajParlor]

I hope you came forward to give the police a description of the assailant.

Also, I'd be eager to learn to how you came to the conclusion that the police waited 20 minutes to arrive because they didn't want to deal with aftermath. Does everything stop after 20 minutes? Why come at all?

I literally laughed out loud when I saw this posted. By this logic, police and ambulances are purposely showing up late to murder scenes and life saving situations when black on black crimes are suspected. That's um... concerning.

[DC Muskie]

I deleted my post because I thought it was a little insulting towards you. But I find it somewhat interesting that you still felt it necessary to respond to my deleted post, and to respond in the manner that you just did.

That said, if you want to read what I wrote, NY 44 quoted it before I deleted it.

In short, I said you don't argue facts. You mock, insult and personalize everything (see your post above, for example). You basically try to "shout down" anyone who disagrees with you. For the most part, you are incapable of holding an adult discussion on issues you disagree with. (I guess I can hurl an insult your way as well.)

I know from past experience that you absolutely have to have the last word. So have at it.

Thank you for your restraint!

You also feel a lot of interesting things. I find it interesting you choose to ignore the conversation you originally wanted to have.

I actually did argue facts. You were arguing a narrative that suggests we shouldn't be outraged by this as others killings because they are simply just black and black crimes. I have provided facts, and I shared the link with waggy.

You regurgitate the same nonsense. Oh look another "Last Word" line! I guess I get the last word because you don't feel as passionately about your narrative. And seriously, me typing words is "shouting you down?" There is an insult there that I can throw back, but I will take your lead and restrain myself.

So interesting!

[waggy]

I got two:

http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/htus8008.pdf

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2010/crime-in-the-u.s.-2010/tables/table-43


Thanks. I only looked at the 2nd. But it doesn't look to me like there is a huge difference if you compare by percentage to total population. And in fact if you adjust for percentage of population, pretty sure blacks commit more. I'm not looking to drag blacks thru the mud, but don't throw bogus statistics out.

[NY44]

When it comes to matters of life and death these exceptions like 'it's a bad neighborhood' 'they don't respect authority' are just pure bull shit. If you don't have what it takes to handle yourself as a police officer, then pick a new profession. I know I couldn't do it. So I don't.

Sure there is sometimes a violent culture in poor neighborhoods, but there can also be a violent culture in police departments. There is also stereotyping both ways about the other's intentions, with very little mutual trust or respect. The main difference is, when a police officer is wrongly killed, there is a government backing them. When a police officer wrongly kills, it is not always apparent that fairness is being applied from the police or the justice system.

[XU 87]

I actually did argue facts. You were arguing a narrative that suggests we shouldn't be outraged by this as others killings because they are simply just black and black crimes. I have provided facts, and I shared the link with waggy.




I had no intention of responding to anymore of your posts because it always ends in the gutter with you. I know it and just about everyone else on this board who has discussions with you knows it. That said, your depiction of what I wrote and what I was saying is absolutely false. You are either too stupid too understand what I said or you are purposely lying. Which one is it?

And this is why I deleted my previous post that you absolutely had to respond to. I knew it would end up like this. It always does with you.

[DC Muskie]

I can find plenty of ridiculous stats too...young black men commit 50% of the murders in the United states and are 14 times more likely to murder than a young white male. That is from a time article in 2013..you know what it proves? About as much as your ridiculous stat.

DC you can close your eyes as much as you want but walk along the city of ferguson and then walk along south city in Saint Louis and tell me where you feel safer...and I am talking before these riots occurred. There are areas in every city black white red purple that are safer than others and where people are made to feel safer than others. Nothing drudy said was incorrect. But you work with the poor so you know more than everyone else

I actually live in a world where I am a part of the community. And I live in a city.

Two months ago two Hispanic male adults were killed two blocks from my place. Last last week the police caught a guy in the backyard just across the street from my place. I can't walk down the street without seeing a DC police officer every two blocks. Crime still happens despite the presence of the police.

Yes I got street cred!

I doubt you have ever lived in a city, let alone walk in one. That's because there are poor people there! All of them lazy...wait, just some of them. Just the ones who work hard and what not.

Thanks for chiming in by the way.

[DC Muskie]

Thanks. I only looked at the 2nd. But it doesn't look to me like there is a huge difference if you compare by percentage to total population. And in fact if you adjust for percentage of population, pretty sure blacks commit more. I'm not looking to drag blacks thru the mud, but don't throw bogus statistics out.

Wait, you are suggesting that I am throwing out bogus stats, while at the same time admit to me you didn't them.

Okay.

[waggy]

Wait, you are suggesting that I am throwing out bogus stats, while at the same time admit to me you didn't them.

Okay.


Yours stats are crap. Just stop.

[drudy23]

Sure there is sometimes a violent culture in poor neighborhoods, but there can also be a violent culture in police departments. .

And like I said, if this is true, show me the "assassin" police officers that are killing people in the suburbs. If this is true, show me the comparables of unarmed White people these "rogue" cops are shooting? There's a reason why these type of things happen in similar areas, and it has nothing to do with "racist, killer cops".

[DC Muskie]

I had no intention of responding to anymore of your posts because it always ends in the gutter with you. I know it and just about everyone else on this board who has discussions with you knows it. That said, your depiction of what I wrote and what I was saying is absolutely false. You are either too stupid too understand what I said or you are purposely lying. Which one is it?

And this is why I deleted my previous post that you absolutely had to respond to. I knew it would end up like this. It always does with you.

Yeah, I'm always the one that veers topics off discussion. This is your line with me every time you don't have an argument. Rinse and repeat.

I'll ask again. Maybe this time you can answer. Why does the situation in Chicago last year matter when it comes to covering a white police officer kills a black man that happened last week?

By the way, the President just responded to this situation. Are you happy or outraged by this?

[Xville]

I actually live in a world where I am a part of the community. And I live in a city.

Two months ago two Hispanic male adults were killed two blocks from my place. Last last week the police caught a guy in the backyard just across the street from my place. I can't walk down the street without seeing a DC police officer every two blocks. Crime still happens despite the presence of the police.

Yes I got street cred!

I doubt you have ever lived in a city, let alone walk in one. That's because there are poor people there! All of them lazy...wait, just some of them. Just the ones who work hard and what not.

Thanks for chiming in by the way.

I was born and raised in st. Louis city but nice try. You are a pompous ass who thinks he knows everything. Newsflash you don't.

[DC Muskie]

Yours stats are crap. Just stop.

The FBI and the DOJ are crap. Got it.

[DC Muskie]

I was born and raised in st. Louis city but nice try. You are a pompous ass who thinks he knows everything. Newsflash you don't.

/In my best 87 voice

STOP INSULTING ME!

[waggy]

The FBI and the DOJ are crap. Got it.

No, your pick and choose application of them does. When adjusted for percentage of population, blacks commit at a higher rate. That's just the truth. Sorry.

[drudy23]

Drudy, do you feel safe in white neighborhoods?

Especially when you considering "with respect to aggravated assault, whites led blacks 2-1 in arrests; in forcible-rape cases, whites led all racial and ethnic groups by more than 2-1. And in larceny theft, whites led blacks, again, more than 2-1." (DOJ stats)

You are surprised there is not not more police and black violence? Wow.

LOL...Whites encompass 2.5x the population as Blacks. Look at the percentage to the whole.

For robbery and murder, there have been MORE arrests for Blacks with 4.2 MILLION LESS PEOPLE. Your chances of getting killed or robbed by a Black assailant is SIGNIFICANTLY higher. I have no idea what you're trying to prove with your stats, but anyone with a brain and an entry level stats class can paint the picture with this data pretty quickly.

[DC Muskie]

No, your pick and choose application of them does.


When adjusted for percentage of population, blacks commit at a higher rate.

I know you didn't read the DOJ report, but do you even read what you post?

[Xville]

The FBI and the DOJ are crap. Got it.

Because you are skewing them to fit your own agenda. DC has warped your brain which doesn't surprise me considering what our government pulls out of their ass on a daily basis

[waggy]

Thanks for those stats DC! Great Job!

[XU 87]

/In my best 87 voice

STOP INSULTING ME!

Let's see if you can argue back factually and logically without resorting to your standard personal insults, attacks and name calling. Let's see if you are capable of arguing like an adult one time. I don't think you can.

[DC Muskie]

LOL...Whites encompass 2.5x the population as Blacks. Look at the percentage to the whole.

For robbery and murder, there have been MORE arrests for Blacks with 4.2 MILLION LESS PEOPLE. Your chances of getting killed or robbed by a Black assailant is SIGNIFICANTLY higher. I have no idea what you're trying to prove with your stats, but anyone with a brain and an entry level stats class can paint the picture with this data pretty quickly.

You realize you have more a chance being killed by a white guy than a black one right? That's what the stats say. I'm not sure how you can miss that.

[waggy]

You realize you have more a chance being killed by a white guy than a black one right? That's what the stats say. I'm not sure how you can miss that.


Flat out lie.

[DC Muskie]

Because you are skewing them to fit your own agenda. DC has warped your brain which doesn't surprise me considering what our government pulls out of their ass on a daily basis

I'm pointing what what has been reported. Everyone else is skewing them.

I wish I grew up in St. Louis City proper so I could easily see the world through your eyes.

[X-band '01]

By the way, the President just responded to this situation. Are you happy or outraged by this?

Whether or not we're happy isn't of any consequence. It's the police and rioters that need to listen and start acting like the remaining law-abiding citizens out there.

And here are Obama's comments below:

CBS News Link (http://www.cbsnews.com/news/obama-on-racial-tension-in-missouri-nows-the-time-for-healing/)

[GoMuskies]

In the mean streets of Wichita shit like this never happens.

In my old Boston neighborhood, when someone got shot it was most likely by an NFL player in a drive-by.

[DC Muskie]

Flat out lie.

I have half a mind to kill you myself just to prove the point!

(I'm not serious everybody, I kid)

[drudy23]

LOL...Whites encompass 2.5x the population as Blacks. Look at the percentage to the whole.

For robbery and murder, there have been MORE arrests for Blacks with 4.2 MILLION LESS PEOPLE. Your chances of getting killed or robbed by a Black assailant is SIGNIFICANTLY higher. I have no idea what you're trying to prove with your stats, but anyone with a brain and an entry level stats class can paint the picture with this data pretty quickly.

That's not skewed...that's FACT based on the data you gave us.

[DC Muskie]

That's not skewed...that's FACT based on the data you gave us.

So wait, now the argument is white people are more likely to be killed by a black guy, so should we be more outraged about this?

Has there been a black officer who has shot and killed an unarmed white person lately? Should we now ignore what happened in Chicago last 4th of July because black on black crime is not as big a deal as a white person being killed by a black guy.

Where are you all taking this?

[drudy23]

No, it means violence follows violence.

You're the only one not following.

And you said stats were skewed...when they weren't. Not only were they not skewed, they were stats YOU provided. Easy to gloss over that, huh?

[DC Muskie]

No, it means violence follows violence.

So there is not violence in white communities?

[drudy23]

So there is not violence in white communities?

Not the perpetual consistent kind that leads to these results.

You can play black and white all you want (not race, but spectrum)...we all know (including you), it's goes deeper. People that can think can articulate this position. You are not articulate. I'll let you infer the rest.

[PM Thor]

Beyond the rioting, I am having major concerns with the response of the police, especially in relation to the media covering Ferguson. There's just too many videos out there of the police firing tear gas and going way too far towards groups of people who are appearing to be peaceful. The flight restrictions, the "roughing up" of some of the media, arresting people wholesale, these things are red flags for me. Thank goodness the governor is finally removing the St. Louis county police from the scene. Perhaps that will calm the situation.