Rioting in STL

[Juice]

If you are replying knowing I was tongue-in-cheek, making a point that gun violence in the rap community is either swept under the rug, or hypocritically celebrated, then fine.

However, I have a feeling you thought I was being serious.

He was shot, he didn't do the shooting. And Justin Bieber was at the party too. Why is gun violence swept under the rug in pop music?

[Pete Delkus]

He was shot, he didn't do the shooting. And Justin Bieber was at the party too. Why is gun violence swept under the rug in pop music?

Really, Really - You want me to spend time typing out comparisons in shootings & murders in Pop vs. Rap?

Are you fu...forget it.

[NY44]

I'm not sure that is the burden of proof they have to meet. In fact I'm relatively certain it isn't it, although somebody more familiar with police procedure can correct me if I am wrong. 'Beyond a reasonable doubt' is a very high standard of proof to require from Police when using deadly force.

I do think that the discussions about the victim's past are valid when we discuss the scenario to the extent that people's past behavior is often a predictor of their future behavior. It's not always right, but it's the way it is. I'm going to give the cop much more of the benefit of the doubt if I find out that Brown has a significant criminal history than I am if he has a competely clean record. That's just the way the world works.

Cops have a tough job, especially in dangerous areas, and I sympathize with that. When interacting with the police people need to keep that in mind. If a cop tells me to do something, I'm going to do it.

Agreed. I don't doubt that the legal burden of proof will be met in this specific case either. My concern is with the burden itself and the lack of oversight the government has for police related violence. It seems like a hot case like this comes around every now and then; then suddenly it gets forgotten that there is a bigger issue here than if Michael Brown was being aggressive or not. No matter who's guilty in this instance, there is a huge problem in this country with how police and the black community relate to each other, specifically the youth. There are a lot of difficult underlying issues there, but I think it's hard to argue that this status-quo is acceptable.

Earlier in the thread someone posted a link to a Deadspin article that said they were trying to compile a database of police shootings because there isn't one. I think that's just awful. Basically, no one has any statistics on police shootings. Not only should there be stats on this, but they should be available to all. That seems like a good place to start.

[Xville]

one thing that continues to infuriate me about this is how Michael Brown's family continue to lie and say just how great of a kid he was and how he was such a gentle soul. Great kids and gentle souls don't rob convenience stores and shove business owners so just stop with the false narrative already. It's complete crap. This kind of attitude by parents is another reason for many of the violence problems today.

Many parents take the attitude of "oh no it couldn't have been my kid....my kid is so good he or she would never do something like that" approach instead of facing the truth and realizing that maybe your kid screwed up and something needs to be done about it.

[Kahns Krazy]

Agreed. I don't doubt that the legal burden of proof will be met in this specific case either. My concern is with the burden itself and the lack of oversight the government has for police related violence. It seems like a hot case like this comes around every now and then; then suddenly it gets forgotten that there is a bigger issue here than if Michael Brown was being aggressive or not. No matter who's guilty in this instance, there is a huge problem in this country with how police and the black community relate to each other, specifically the youth. There are a lot of difficult underlying issues there, but I think it's hard to argue that this status-quo is acceptable.

Earlier in the thread someone posted a link to a Deadspin article that said they were trying to compile a database of police shootings because there isn't one. I think that's just awful. Basically, no one has any statistics on police shootings. Not only should there be stats on this, but they should be available to all. That seems like a good place to start.

I think it would be helpful to put it side-by-side with the non-police shootings so we have a real sense of where to start fixing the problem. When the levees broke in New Orleans, I imagine you sitting there with a hair dryer drying a rag you had used to wipe something up because "it's a little damp".

Police shootings are a problem, but they are not the problem that needs to be fixed. Start with the other 99% of shootings first, and my guess is that the police ones will solve themselves.

[bobbiemcgee]

There's a tremendous Void in the available information. Not one single word from Wilson's side yet. People just filling up the Void with their biased personal beliefs and prejudices at this point. Is anybody credible at this point? Nope. Does anyone have a clue what really happened? Nope. Taking out their personal frustrations. Nobody really knows anything. Gonna be a while.....

[muskienick]

I think it would be helpful to put it side-by-side with the non-police shootings so we have a real sense of where to start fixing the problem. When the levees broke in New Orleans, I imagine you sitting there with a hair dryer drying a rag you had used to wipe something up because "it's a little damp".

Police shootings are a problem, but they are not the problem that needs to be fixed. Start with the other 99% of shootings first, and my guess is that the police ones will solve themselves.
Excellent take, Kahns! I hope somebody else reps you for it since the site won't allow me to do so!

[DC Muskie]

Police shootings are a problem, but they are not the problem that needs to be fixed. Start with the other 99% of shootings first, and my guess is that the police ones will solve themselves.

I do not share the same guess that solving the other 99% of shootings will result in eliminating police shootings.

If they are a problem, solve the problem. It seems easier to fix to me.

[xu82]

I do not share the same guess that solving the other 99% of shootings will result in eliminating police shootings.

If they are a problem, solve the problem. It seems easier to fix to me.

"Eliminating" is a strong word. But do you really think that getting rid of 99%, or all non-police shootings, would not reduce police shootings? It's the Wild Wild West out there in some places. If it were more safe police would be less apt to pull the trigger. I had a cop uncle killed by a bad guy who yanked a gun from another officer. They are in danger every second. Obviously, eliminated non-justified police shootings is critical. Maybe if they weren't being shot AT it wouldn't happen as often. (Not that we know what happened in this case.)

[DC Muskie]

"Eliminating" is a strong word. But do you really think that getting rid of 99%, or all non-police shootings, would not reduce police shootings? It's the Wild Wild West out there in some places. If it were more safe police would be less apt to pull the trigger. I had a cop uncle killed by a bad guy who yanked a gun from another officer. They are in danger every second. Obviously, eliminated non-justified police shootings is critical. Maybe if they weren't being shot AT it wouldn't happen as often. (Not that we know what happened in this case.)

The think the premise of solving 99% of any challenge is flawed.

We are talking about a smaller amount of shootings. And those people are trained in how and when to their weapons. Again if it's a problem, work on resolving that problem.

I mean if we eliminated 99% of crime in general, then do we need police?

I threw out a report that the state of Wisconsin in 129 years of policing not one shooting of police was ruled as unjustified. That's incredible to 100% correct.

Sorry about your uncle as well. Terrible.

[xu82]

Thanks, and of course the premise is flawed, it's not possible. I was responding to "solving the other 99%". Not sure what that means. This is always going to be an issue. The world is full of humans. We are flawed, and will continue to be so.

[DC Muskie]

Thanks, and of course the premise is flawed, it's not possible. I was responding to "solving the other 99%". Not sure what that means. This is always going to be an issue. The world is full of humans. We are flawed, and will continue to be so.

My response was to Kahns. We are on the same page.

[vee4xu]

I have not really followed the Ferguson case and only heard about this story by happenstance today. It's a story where purportedly a black/non-white officer shot and killed an allegedly unarmed white man. Just wonder if anyone else has heard about this story? It happened on August 13.

http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/58313255-78/burbank-police-taylor-officer.html.csp

http://www.wnd.com/2014/08/black-cop-kills-white-man-media-hide-race/

Just for full disclosure, my dad was a police officer for 27 years and lived to retire despite having someone pull a gun and try to shoot him two weeks into the job. I was 2 years old and my mom was pregnant with my brother. Thank goodness the gun jammed. I'll leave it at that.

[xu82]

I have not really followed the Ferguson case and only heard about this story by happenstance today. It's a story where purportedly a black/non-white officer shot and killed an allegedly unarmed white man. Just wonder if anyone else has heard about this story? It happened on August 13.

http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/58313255-78/burbank-police-taylor-officer.html.csp

http://www.wnd.com/2014/08/black-cop-kills-white-man-media-hide-race/

Just for full disclosure, my dad was a police officer for 27 years and lived to retire despite having someone pull a gun and try to shoot him two weeks into the job. I was 2 years old and my mom was pregnant with my brother. Thank goodness the gun jammed. I'll leave it at that.

First I've heard of that. Shocking! A good Utah riot might have fixed that. (Or maybe not depending upon Utah riot standards - one guy kicking over a newspaper box is a poor riot). Thank God for a jammed gun because the world changes for a whole universe of people in so many sad ways when something like that happens. The ripple effect is real.

[Juice]

Really, Really - You want me to spend time typing out comparisons in shootings & murders in Pop vs. Rap?

Are you fu...forget it.

No I just thinks it's funny that you use the argument that uptight moms use about how music and TV are ruining everyone's lives.

[NY44]

First I've heard of that. Shocking! A good Utah riot might have fixed that. (Or maybe not depending upon Utah riot standards - one guy kicking over a newspaper box is a poor riot). Thank God for a jammed gun because the world changes for a whole universe of people in so many sad ways when something like that happens. The ripple effect is real.

Records of police shootings could help settle if unarmed white people get killed too and the media just doesn't care. Think of all the possibilities!

[Snipe]

I have not really followed the Ferguson case and only heard about this story by happenstance today. It's a story where purportedly a black/non-white officer shot and killed an allegedly unarmed white man. Just wonder if anyone else has heard about this story? It happened on August 13.

http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/58313255-78/burbank-police-taylor-officer.html.csp

http://www.wnd.com/2014/08/black-cop-kills-white-man-media-hide-race/

Just for full disclosure, my dad was a police officer for 27 years and lived to retire despite having someone pull a gun and try to shoot him two weeks into the job. I was 2 years old and my mom was pregnant with my brother. Thank goodness the gun jammed. I'll leave it at that.

It helps to have a full fledged racial grievance industry backed by the main stream media. Over 90% of the people arrested that I have seen aren't from Ferguson. At times the media has outnumbered the protestors. I am pretty convinced that they could have pulled off these televised demonstrations even if nobody from Ferguson showed up. And instantly you see the professional made signs, banners and t-shirts. The racial grievance industry is large and they have a fast action team for sure. They were registering Democratic party voters at the very site of the shooting within days.

And it does bring together the left for some reason (the reason being it works?). I noted a link to the immigration reform group trying to piggyback on Ferguson, but yesterday I read a an envioromentalist group jumping on the band wagon. Yes, Global Warming and Ferguson. I think I need to switch sides and start working for "social justice". Then I can make long winded arguments about nothing all the time. I think I would be good at that.

[X-man]

It helps to have a full fledged racial grievance industry backed by the main stream media. Over 90% of the people arrested that I have seen aren't from Ferguson. At times the media has outnumbered the protestors. I am pretty convinced that they could have pulled off these televised demonstrations even if nobody from Ferguson showed up. And instantly you see the professional made signs, banners and t-shirts. The racial grievance industry is large and they have a fast action team for sure. They were registering Democratic party voters at the very site of the shooting within days.

And it does bring together the left for some reason (the reason being it works?). I noted a link to the immigration reform group trying to piggyback on Ferguson, but yesterday I read a an envioromentalist group jumping on the band wagon. Yes, Global Warming and Ferguson. I think I need to switch sides and start working for "social justice". Then I can make long winded arguments about nothing all the time. I think I would be good at that.

You just proved your case with this post.

[vee4xu]

X-MAN, far be it from me to speak for Snipe. He's a good dude and is quite capable of speaking for himself. But, I have a hunch the the comment you've highlighted is meant to be facetious, yet a factual self-admission on his own behalf.

[NY44]

I'm surprised at the opinions of posters, who are generally conservative, have on this topic. Isn't this a great example of the government being too strong and going unchecked by checks and balances?

[xu82]

I'm surprised at the opinions of posters, who are generally conservative, have on this topic. Isn't this a great example of the government being too strong and going unchecked by checks and balances?

I thought it was more an example of a segment of an out of control public resorting to violence and destruction (and some convenient theft) before the government could have a chance to apply the checks and balances. Time will tell if the government does their job, we know how the rioters behaved. (Full disclosure, I stopped following this closely some time ago as I got tired of it, so maybe I've missed some important stuff.)

[NY44]

I thought it was more an example of a segment of an out of control public resorting to violence and destruction (and some convenient theft) before the government could have a chance to apply the checks and balances. Time will tell if the government does their job, we know how the rioters behaved. (Full disclosure, I stopped following this closely some time ago as I got tired of it, so maybe I've missed some important stuff.)

There haven't been riots in the past 2 days actually. Mostly because of Brown's funeral.

[paulxu]

It'd be nice if there were more stories like these two guys from Avondale.

https://www.youtube.com/embed/agwnwqCdwl8

[Kahns Krazy]

There haven't been riots in the past 2 days actually. Mostly because of Brown's funeral.

I find this statement fascinating in many ways. How would you know the reason behind the decrease in riots? Why would the rioting decrease simply because of one man's funeral? What is the source of the riots and what is the objective?

I can't rationalize much of what has been reported.

[NY44]

I find this statement fascinating in many ways. How would you know the reason behind the decrease in riots? Why would the rioting decrease simply because of one man's funeral? What is the source of the riots and what is the objective?

I can't rationalize much of what has been reported.

Brown's father asked the rioters to stop on the day of his son's funeral and they did.

[GoMuskies]

People were still rioting as of two days ago?!?

[DC Muskie]

People were still rioting as of two days ago?!?

Yeah, the National Guard left last week. I didn't realize they were still rioting.

[bleedXblue]

In all of this my best guess is that they are going to determine that Wilson's actions initially were justified........but that he went too far and should have been able to subdue Brown without firing fatal shots. What happens to Wilson is the big question. Jail time? I don't think so. Loses his job? Maybe. Suspension and desk duty for an extended period. Likely.

[NY44]

Yeah, the National Guard left last week. I didn't realize they were still rioting.

Just took a closer look, on the already enormous wikipedia page for this issue: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Ferguson_unrest#August_18.E2.80.9325:_De-escalation_and_protests it seems they've been peaceful since the 23rd. I was under the impression that they have completely stopped since the funeral.

[DC Muskie]

In all of this my best guess is that they are going to determine that Wilson's actions initially were justified........but that he went too far and should have been able to subdue Brown without firing fatal shots. What happens to Wilson is the big question. Jail time? I don't think so. Loses his job? Maybe. Suspension and desk duty for an extended period. Likely.

What amazes me is I think the FPD hasn't yet released an incident report.

[X-man]

X-MAN, far be it from me to speak for Snipe. He's a good dude and is quite capable of speaking for himself. But, I have a hunch the the comment you've highlighted is meant to be facetious, yet a factual self-admission on his own behalf.

I know Snipe pretty well, and I agree with you. I was just pimping him.

[Kahns Krazy]

Rioting and uneventful protesting are not the same thing. The "Occupy" movement was an extended protest, but would not be classified as a riot except maybe that crap that went down in Oakland.

[SemajParlor]

What amazes me is I think the FPD hasn't yet released an incident report.

Those who were critical of others for believing a narrative without all of the facts are believing a narrative… without facts. And that pretty much sums up 79 pages.

[X-band '01]

Those who were critical of others for believing a narrative without all of the facts are believing a narrative… without facts. And that pretty much sums up 79 pages.

I'm seeing 20 pages, although I've set up my own browser (go to Settings in the upper right hand corner, then General Settings on the left hand side) to show up to 40 posts per page. That should make it a little less tedious.

[waggy]

Those who were critical of others for believing a narrative without all of the facts are believing a narrative… without facts. And that pretty much sums up 79 pages.

Is this alternate narrative something you can define for me? I'm hoping to understand it so I know whether or not to believe in it.

[SemajParlor]

I'm seeing 20 pages, although I've set up my own browser (go to Settings in the upper right hand corner, then General Settings on the left hand side) to show up to 40 posts per page. That should make it a little less tedious.

Thanks for the heads up. For some reason I never really change any settings on a work computer- it’s this thing I do to trick myself into believing I won’t look at various boards and websites frequently during the day. Destined for failure.

[SemajParlor]

Is this alternate narrative something you can define for me? I'm hoping to understand it so I know whether or not to believe in it.

Don't worry about it - my interest in your opinion on this stance ended weeks ago.


http://media3.giphy.com/media/62PP2yEIAZF6g/giphy.gif

[waggy]

Don't worry about it - my interest in your opinion on this stance ended weeks ago.


http://media3.giphy.com/media/62PP2yEIAZF6g/giphy.gif


So there really isn't an alternative narrative. Thanks.

[blobfan]

Those who were critical of others for believing a narrative without all of the facts are believing a narrative… without facts. And that pretty much sums up 79 pages.

Which just shows how little critical reading you've done on this thread because some of us are just gathering info while waiting to see if ANY narrative can be substantiated.

[PM Thor]

There are quite literally half a dozen narratives on this. From some media complaining about how the other media covers the events, to the police response, to the race card, to the police blue line response, on and on. It's become so convoluted it's ridiculous and the whole event has lost any focus. Even if people legitimately were concerned about the actual shooting, it's been overwhelmed with other narratives that people get caught up in.

[waggy]

Unarmed college bound black kid on way to grandmas house murdered by white racist cop for jaywalking, Justifying intellectual rioting and looting.

Still waiting for someone to define the opposing narrative.

Thanks.

[PM Thor]

Are you deliberately being obtuse or are you just really this naïve?

[waggy]

Are you deliberately being obtuse or are you just really this naïve?


I'm making the point that there is no opposing narrative. But just in case there is one I'm not aware of, I'm offering you the opportunity to post it.

The actual argument in this thread is about the left leaning narrative that I described. It's the racist narrative that's at issue. The cop may or may not be a racist, we don't know, but a large number of racists already determined that he is.

Again, please post the opposing narrative when you find it.

[Juice]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eUi2A6tUYQk#t=265

This is gold

[muskienick]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eUi2A6tUYQk#t=265

This is gold

Holy shit! Jon hits the nail on the head once again! He's a freaking genius at making the Fox extreme right look like complete and utter a-holes! No --- I'm wrong. The Fox extreme right have done that excellent job all by themselves!!! Stewart just made the whole process funny and absurd.

[Strange Brew]

Holy shit! Jon hits the nail on the head once again! He's a freaking genius at making the Fox extreme right look like complete and utter a-holes! No --- I'm wrong. The Fox extreme right have done that excellent job all by themselves!!! Stewart just made the whole process funny and absurd.

I really do not have a dog in this fight as the facts are clearly not in (nor will I once they are) but I find it curious that so many accept and form their worldview from a poorly done half hour version of SNL's Weekend Update delivered by a 50 something never was comedian. Can someone please post bozo the clown's take on the situation? I hear he is a genius at making the extreme left on MSNBC look like fools........

[NY44]

Is this alternate narrative something you can define for me? I'm hoping to understand it so I know whether or not to believe in it.

The alternative narrative is that the system works and just needs to be given some time. It's wrong because the inequality of black life in America doesn't go away if Wilson is found to be innocent. This is a nation wide problem and this shooting has caused such an uproar because it is an example of this inequality that many can relate to. We will all inevitably get bogged down in the details of this one instance and miss the bigger issue until the next police shooting.

[bleedXblue]

The alternative narrative is that the system works and just needs to be given some time. It's wrong because the inequality of black life in America doesn't go away if Wilson is found to be innocent. This is a nation wide problem and this shooting has caused such an uproar because it is an example of this inequality that many can relate to. We will all inevitably get bogged down in the details of this one instance and miss the bigger issue until the next police shooting.

Brown was part of the problem?

Inequality of black life in America? We have so many social systems supporting minorities it's becoming a problem.

I accept responsibility for myself. I do not expect anyone to provide me anything. When every American adopts this philosophy we will become a much stronger and more unified country.

[NY44]

Brown was part of the problem?

Inequality of black life in America? We have so many social systems supporting minorities it's becoming a problem.

I accept responsibility for myself. I do not expect anyone to provide me anything. When every American adopts this philosophy we will become a much stronger and more unified country.

Sorry if I wasn't clear enough. My point has nothing to do with financials. Black rich and poor are treated differently by a lot of people in this country. Unfortunately even police sometimes.

[RealDeal]

I really do not have a dog in this fight as the facts are clearly not in (nor will I once they are) but I find it curious that so many accept and form their worldview from a poorly done half hour version of SNL's Weekend Update delivered by a 50 something never was comedian. Can someone please post bozo the clown's take on the situation? I hear he is a genius at making the extreme left on MSNBC look like fools........

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O_HyZ5aW76c

[Xville]

Sorry if I wasn't clear enough. My point has nothing to do with financials. Black rich and poor are treated differently by a lot of people in this country. Unfortunately even police sometimes.

oh brother...you're right white people are oppressors and black people are victims.

[muskienick]

I really do not have a dog in this fight as the facts are clearly not in (nor will I once they are) but I find it curious that so many accept and form their worldview from a poorly done half hour version of SNL's Weekend Update delivered by a 50 something never was comedian. Can someone please post bozo the clown's take on the situation? I hear he is a genius at making the extreme left on MSNBC look like fools........

Equating Bozo the Clown's comedy to that of Jon Stewart is akin to ranking the invention of the hula hoop to the development of Pasteurization.

[GoMuskies]

Equating Bozo the Clown's comedy to that of Jon Stewart is akin to ranking the invention of the hula hoop to the development of Pasteurization.

Exactly. Why is Brew insulting Bobo like that?

[Smails]

Equating Bozo the Clown's comedy to that of Jon Stewart is akin to ranking the invention of the hula hoop to the development of Pasteurization.

Says you...Bozo was a pioneer.

Using John Stewart to point out the lunacy of Sean Hannity is akin to using a Rush Limbaugh clip to back up the opinion that Chris Matthews is a no talent ass clown. See how that works?

[blobfan]

Holy shit! Jon hits the nail on the head once again! He's a freaking genius at making the Fox extreme right look like complete and utter a-holes! No --- I'm wrong. The Fox extreme right have done that excellent job all by themselves!!! Stewart just made the whole process funny and absurd.

Well, the last part about unequal treatment is on point. But at one point he proves Fox's point about liberal media bias by repeating facts not in evidence: it has not yet been determine whether or not Brown had his hands raised when shots were fired.

[Pete Delkus]

Well, the last part about unequal treatment is on point. But at one point he proves Fox's point about liberal media bias by repeating facts not in evidence: it has not yet been determine whether or not Brown had his hands raised when shots were fired.

Ya'll better be careful. You start pointing out holes in the John Stewart phenomenon of news gathering with left leaning folks, and you're in for a dog fight. He makes news fun...like a church which allows you to drink soda.

[DC Muskie]

Well, the last part about unequal treatment is on point. But at one point he proves Fox's point about liberal media bias by repeating facts not in evidence: it has not yet been determine whether or not Brown had his hands raised when shots were fired.

Has it been determined this didn't happen? You take his point about the producer and corespondent story in New York as "on point" but there is no evidence to determine that actually happened.

What other "facts" did Stewart mention that are not in evidence concerning Ferguson?

[SemajParlor]

Ya'll better be careful. You start pointing out holes in the John Stewart phenomenon of news gathering with left leaning folks, and you're in for a dog fight. He makes news fun...like a church which allows you to drink soda.

Jon*

[bleedXblue]

Has it been determined this didn't happen? You take his point about the producer and corespondent story in New York as "on point" but there is no evidence to determine that actually happened.

What other "facts" did Stewart mention that are not in evidence concerning Ferguson?

I'm telling you that this is going to end in a stalemate. Both sides will have their witnesses contradict one another. Who do you believe? The fact that Brown just robbed a convenience store does not bode well for the prosecution. The fact that he was shot 6 times without a weapon doesn't bode well for Wilson either. In the end , they slap the cop on the wrist and he gets desk duty for 6 months. Now, if we only had video of the encounter.......

[DC Muskie]

Now, if we only had video of the encounter.......

Or an incident report. How hard is it to produce an incident report? They were able to track down a video, but putting together a report is really putting the police in a bad light.

[MHettel]

Or an incident report. How hard is it to produce an incident report? They were able to track down a video, but putting together a report is really putting the police in a bad light.

Do you really believe there is no incident report?

Have you consider that there actually IS an incident report, but it's simply not been made available to the public because there is an ongoing investigation. Ever heard of that?

[blobfan]

Has it been determined this didn't happen? You take his point about the producer and corespondent story in New York as "on point" but there is no evidence to determine that actually happened.

What other "facts" did Stewart mention that are not in evidence concerning Ferguson?
Yes, witness reports are conflicting as to whether or not Brown had his hands in the air when he was shot. The only other Ferguson facts Stewart stated was that Brown was an unarmed black teen that was shot by a cop. I don't think that is in contention at all. Some pundits complain that the media always leads with that and skips over possible criminal behavior but I've not heard anyone claim he was either armed, not a teen or not black.

As for Stewart's story about the producer and correspondent, he was sharing that as one example among many where blacks, particularly black males, are treated differently by those in authority. Anyone that denies that isn't paying attention. In addition to the many other anecdotes being shared for years by celebrities like Oprah and Danny Glover or the professor that took part in Obama's beer summit, there are court cases covering instances where black shoppers are searched and otherwise treated as shoplifters. Or you can talk to a black mother with sons and ask her what their experience is.

That still doesn't mean that in this particular case the cop was completely unjustified in his actions. We haven't heard all the evidence yet. But I do believe there is a greater problem in this country and pretending it doesn't exist won't fix it.

[Xville]

Yes, witness reports are conflicting as to whether or not Brown had his hands in the air when he was shot. The only other Ferguson facts Stewart stated was that Brown was an unarmed black teen that was shot by a cop. I don't think that is in contention at all. Some pundits complain that the media always leads with that and skips over possible criminal behavior but I've not heard anyone claim he was either armed, not a teen or not black.

As for Stewart's story about the producer and correspondent, he was sharing that as one example among many where blacks, particularly black males, are treated differently by those in authority. Anyone that denies that isn't paying attention. In addition to the many other anecdotes being shared for years by celebrities like Oprah and Danny Glover or the professor that took part in Obama's beer summit, there are court cases covering instances where black shoppers are searched and otherwise treated as shoplifters. Or you can talk to a black mother with sons and ask her what their experience is.

That still doesn't mean that in this particular case the cop was completely unjustified in his actions. We haven't heard all the evidence yet. But I do believe there is a greater problem in this country and pretending it doesn't exist won't fix it.

Nevermind...i really hope that second to last paragraph is a joke. I don't give a rats ass what Oprah and Danny Glover think about anything, and if you do, then you are right we have much bigger problems in this country.

[SemajParlor]

CNN is reporting there is audio that inadvertently recorded the gun shots.

“In the recording, a quick series of shots can be heard, followed by a pause and then another quick succession of shots.
Forensic audio expert Paul Ginsberg analyzed the recording and said he detected at least 10 gunshots -- a cluster of six, followed by four.”

[PM Thor]

Do you really believe there is no incident report?

Have you consider that there actually IS an incident report, but it's simply not been made available to the public because there is an ongoing investigation. Ever heard of that?

I would be absolutely, totally, completely shocked if their isn't an incident report. See, the problem is, that many in the community want information right NOW, without allowing the system to run its course. An incident report will be released, but right now it's part of an ongoing investigation. To release that type of information now would be inflammatory (probably) and would hinder the investigations that are occurring. I think.

[xavierj]

Sorry if I wasn't clear enough. My point has nothing to do with financials. Black rich and poor are treated differently by a lot of people in this country. Unfortunately even police sometimes.

Really? So says you and the media. 99.9% of the time you are treated for how you act. In my life when I have done stupid stuff I got punished for it. This lard ass intimated and threatened a store worker who was much smaller. Maybe this brown ass was a bully and karma kicked him in the ass. Can you at least agree this guy was a dick?

[Juice]

Nevermind...i really hope that second to last paragraph is a joke. I don't give a rats ass what Oprah and Danny Glover think about anything, and if you do, then you are right we have much bigger problems in this country.

Danny Glover and Oprah do suck ass but if you don't think black people get unfair treatment in many aspects of today's society then you are either clueless or insane.

[Pete Delkus]

Really? So says you and the media. 99.9% of the time you are treated for how you act. In my life when I have done stupid stuff I got punished for it. This lard ass intimated and threatened a store worker who was much smaller. Maybe this brown ass was a bully and karma kicked him in the ass. Can you at least agree this guy was a dick?


"Unarmed, college-bound teenager" - MSNBC & CNN

vs.

"High and minutes from robbing a store"

[Xville]

Danny Glover and Oprah do suck ass but if you don't think black people get unfair treatment in many aspects of today's society then you are either clueless or insane.

Based on what facts? I guess call me clueless or insane. I'm so sick of hearing about how everyone is such a victim and that isn't more prevalent in one race or the other, it is across society. Maybe if people would change that mindset, we wouldn't have the problems that we do today.

[Juice]

Based on what facts? I guess call me clueless or insane. I'm so sick of hearing about how everyone is such a victim and that isn't more prevalent in one race or the other, it is across society. Maybe if people would change that mindset, we wouldn't have the problems that we do today.

There were two examples at the end of the Jon Stewart video. 1) Black people waiting for cabs much longer than white people. 2) The story of his two co-workers, one being white and able to walk right through the building and the other being black being stopped by security. 3) Go down to municipal court in Hamilton County. See who has the jaywalking tickets. It's not white people. And don't reply that somehow only black people jaywalk and not white people.

And those are small examples. But if I had to do with that everyday I would start to get pissed too.

And yes, I do think you're clueless because you're white and it doesn't happen to you nor does it happen to me. And I'm clueless too. I have not the slightest idea what it's like to be a black person in America but I've started to realize that they have to deal with more shit than we do based on people's preconceived notions of them.

[bleedXblue]

Based on what facts? I guess call me clueless or insane. I'm so sick of hearing about how everyone is such a victim and that isn't more prevalent in one race or the other, it is across society. Maybe if people would change that mindset, we wouldn't have the problems that we do today.

Agreed.

Plain and simple, the people that continue to make excuses and point fingers at everyone except themselves are the problem.

Go to school (which by the way is provided to every American free of charge), get a job and take care of yourself. If you bring another human into this world.....that's your responsibility, not mine.

So tired of propping up those that can take care of themselves. Get off your ass and make it happen.

[Xville]

There were two examples at the end of the Jon Stewart video. 1) Black people waiting for cabs much longer than white people. 2) The story of his two co-workers, one being white and able to walk right through the building and the other being black being stopped by security. 3) Go down to municipal court in Hamilton County. See who has the jaywalking tickets. It's not white people. And don't reply that somehow only black people jaywalk and not white people.

And those are small examples. But if I had to do with that everyday I would start to get pissed too.

And yes, I do think you're clueless because you're white and it doesn't happen to you nor does it happen to me. And I'm clueless too. I have not the slightest idea what it's like to be a black person in America but I've started to realize that they have to deal with more shit than we do based on people's preconceived notions of them.

Sorry but I'm not going to believe something just because Jon Stewart told me it's true. That is like believing everything that CNN and/or Fox News "reports" is true.

[RealDeal]

http://www.chicagobooth.edu/capideas/spring03/racialbias.html

[Juice]

http://www.chicagobooth.edu/capideas/spring03/racialbias.html

http://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2014/08/black-men-need-more-education-to-get-the-same-jobs/375770/

I don't think Jon Stewart made this up.

[xeus]

I've started to realize that they have to deal with more shit than we do based on people's preconceived notions of them.

Who is "we"?

[Xville]

http://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2014/08/black-men-need-more-education-to-get-the-same-jobs/375770/

I don't think Jon Stewart made this up.

That report doesn't prove anything....it just says, this is the way it is. Real Deal's study at least shows that there may be a racial undertone for why black people did not get called back. However, again that is tough to prove because they didn't take the same exact resume and change the names and send it to the same employer...it says they sent comparable resumes. Well, a lot of companies big or small have filters in their computer hiring database from which they will completely weed out people before it even gets looked at by an actual person because it does or does not contain certain words.

[Juice]

That report doesn't prove anything....it just says, this is the way it is. Real Deal's study at least shows that there may be a racial undertone for why black people did not get called back. However, again that is tough to prove because they didn't take the same exact resume and change the names and send it to the same employer...it says they sent comparable resumes. Well, a lot of companies big or small have filters in their computer hiring database from which they will completely weed out people before it even gets looked at by an actual person because it does or does not contain certain words.

But you see no problem that black people have to be more educated than white people to get a job over them?

I don't advocate for affirmative actions or anything like that but it sure is BS that black people have to do more than white people to get a job.

[ammtd34]

But you see no problem that black people have to be more educated than white people to get a job over them?

I don't advocate for affirmative actions or anything like that but it sure is BS that black people have to do more than white people to get a job.

I would agree that it is a problem. A big one. But that's not exactly what the study was looking at. The way the first paragraph was written just makes it seem that way.

[Kahns Krazy]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eUi2A6tUYQk#t=265

This is gold


Holy shit! Jon hits the nail on the head once again! He's a freaking genius at making the Fox extreme right look like complete and utter a-holes! No --- I'm wrong. The Fox extreme right have done that excellent job all by themselves!!! Stewart just made the whole process funny and absurd.

John Stewart is a comedian, not a news outlet. He takes soundbites out of context and makes fun of them. He's good at it, and makes it funny, but it's not news or an unbiased opinion. What scares me is how many people take a comedy bit and consider it a valid position on an issue.



Danny Glover and Oprah do suck ass but if you don't think black people get unfair treatment in many aspects of today's society then you are either clueless or insane.

We all get unfair treatment every day. You get a speeding ticket some days when you are one of 1,000 people speeding. You get passed over for a promotion when you're more qualified but the other guy's uncle knows the CEO. You get less meat on your Chipotle burrito than the girl in front of you because she's hot and the guy behind the counter thought she'd like that. The world isn't fair, and each of us experience unfair treatment every single day without blaming it on race. It's just how the world freaking works. Some of it is just random, and not fair.

I was downtown Wednesday night, walking through government square at about 10:15. There were approximately 20 mostly young black males (though there were at least two white males in the same crowd) running around, including in the street, screaming profanities at each other, one of which was yelling across the street that he was "gonna kill that white bitch". I don't believe he was referring to my white bitch, but since she happend to be one of only three white bitches in sight, I did have to consider it. It was more uncomfortble than I have been downtown in a while. As we continued to walk, a smaller group of 6-7 came sprinting by us, running away from the larger crowd. That is an unsettling feeling. I have no idea why they were running away, but they were.

I don't know if anything happened that raised to a level of a crime (besides some jaywalking and potential threats of violence), but based on my observation, the potential for a crime was much higher than it would be at 5:00 on a weekday.

So when you tell me that some black people percieve that they are treated unfairly, do you mean that they are treated differently, and they should not be, because at some point, I believe that if you are going to look the part, you can expect to be treated differently. I would expect that the white males in this group, behaving in a similar way, would be treated exactly the same by police.

I would expect that white people with missing teeth, tons of redneck tattoos and visable symptoms of drug abuse get treated differently by the police, store owners or general people on the street than I do. I would expect that people driving cars with temporary tags get treated differently than I do. I would expect that people driving their Lexus SUV's through Amberly Village with their "AV" stickers on the back get treated differently than I do.

There is a correlation between how you act and how other people treat you, and walking in the street and disrespecting a police office puts you in a category of people that are going to be treated differently, and I believe that it is justified.

There are also assholes in the world. I have witnessed black people being ignored in a restarant, and it's disgusting. I have witnessed black people be obnoxious in a service setting, and it's obnoxious. There are cultural differences, and as long as we all continue to act like we should all be the same when we are not, we are going to continue to have people get bent out of shape because they are percieved to be acting out when they are just in a different cultural setting.


People keep pointing to the racial makeup of the Ferguson police department as evidence of a bias. Why are there so many white cops in such a black neighborhood? Why isn't anyone asking why more black people aren't applying to the Ferguson police department? You can't force equality in every situation.

[Masterofreality]

We all get unfair treatment every day. You get a speeding ticket some days when you are one of 1,000 people speeding. You get passed over for a promotion when you're more qualified but the other guy's uncle knows the CEO. You get less meat on your Chipotle burrito than the girl in front of you because she's hot and the guy behind the counter thought she'd like that. The world isn't fair, and each of us experience unfair treatment every single day without blaming it on race. It's just how the world freaking works. Some of it is just random, and not fair.

The only thing fair in life is a ground ball between first and third.

[xu82]

The only thing fair in life is a ground ball between first and third.

Why did my mind immediately go to Bill Buckner. That poor guy...

[Kahns Krazy]

http://www.chicagobooth.edu/capideas/spring03/racialbias.html


http://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2014/08/black-men-need-more-education-to-get-the-same-jobs/375770/

I don't think Jon Stewart made this up.

Those studies contradict each other on the value of a black person getting more education. It's a possibilty that the logic or methodology are flawed. I think there is a flaw in tying a post-graduation employement rate to only race. Do they have similar work experience? Similar networking? Etc? There may be some argument that "networking" is biased against certain people and shows a racial bias, but excluding that from a study leads to dangerous conclusions, IMO.

[waggy]

I wouldn't be a bit surprised if white people are generally more comfortable hiring more white people. I don't think that's a revelation.

[Kahns Krazy]

I have both worked under and hired black people. As a white male, the HR issue can make it more difficult to deal with problems from a non-white employee. That is a fact of the legal environment we work in. I am aware of it. If anything, it makes me more prone to hire a black candidate if there are two equal options, because I strive not to be discriminatory and probably overcompensate sometimes. Only once did it bite me in the ass, and it wasn't because the young man was black. It was because he was lazy.

[Xman95]

The only thing fair in life is a ground ball between first and third.

And even then you better hope Angel Hernandez doesn't have umpire duties that game.

[X-man]

I wouldn't be a bit surprised if white people are generally more comfortable hiring more white people. I don't think that's a revelation.

Most people are more comfortable with the familiar. But if you act on that when employing job applicants, it is both unfair and illegal.

[DC Muskie]

Do you really believe there is no incident report?

Have you consider that there actually IS an incident report, but it's simply not been made available to the public because there is an ongoing investigation. Ever heard of that?

There isn't one because St. Louis County Prosecuting Attorney Robert P. McCulloch said there isn't one. I'm not surprised you didn't know that.


I would be absolutely, totally, completely shocked if their isn't an incident report. See, the problem is, that many in the community want information right NOW, without allowing the system to run its course. An incident report will be released, but right now it's part of an ongoing investigation. To release that type of information now would be inflammatory (probably) and would hinder the investigations that are occurring. I think.

They released an incident report of the convenient store confrontation along with the video. They did that the same day they released the name of the police officer involved. Releasing the incident report doesn't do anything to hinder the grand jury deliberations.

[Masterofreality]

And even then you better hope Angel Hernandez doesn't have umpire duties that game.

HA! Worst umpire since CB Bucknor and/or Tim McClelland.

[SemajParlor]

HA! Worst umpire since CB Bucknor and/or Tim McClelland.

I often tend to find Laz Diaz as the source of my anger at the TV.

[jcubspoe]

There isn't one because St. Louis County Prosecuting Attorney Robert P. McCulloch said there isn't one. I'm not surprised you didn't know that.



They released an incident report of the convenient store confrontation along with the video. They did that the same day they released the name of the police officer involved. Releasing the incident report doesn't do anything to hinder the grand jury deliberations.

What is your definition of an incident report? An incident report on a police officer involved shooting is going to take weeks to complete. I can guarantee you statements were taken the day of the incident from the officer by their I.A. If safety allowed, a video taped walk through was completed or something similar. Doing an "incident" report on an officer involved shooting is 100% more complex then a beat cop rolling up and taking a robbery report. They aren't even comparable. Again, this "incident" report is going to take quite some time to complete in it's entirety. The PD would be stupid to release bits and pieces of the final report. They'll save it for court.

[DC Muskie]

What is your definition of an incident report? An incident report on a police officer involved shooting is going to take weeks to complete. I can guarantee you statements were taken the day of the incident from the officer by their I.A. If safety allowed, a video taped walk through was completed or something similar. Doing an "incident" report on an officer involved shooting is 100% more complex then a beat cop rolling up and taking a robbery report. They aren't even comparable. Again, this "incident" report is going to take quite some time to complete in it's entirety. The PD would be stupid to release bits and pieces of the final report. They'll save it for court.

The St. Louis Police Department released an incident report less than 24 hours after two officers shot and killed a black kid. That was on August 19th. There's actual video of the incident that is flat out scary.

Ferguson PD was stupid enough to release the video of the convenience store, and didn't think they would ever release the name of the officer in question, even though it is the law.

Even if you think it would take weeks to complete an incident report, we are three days away from it being a month since this happened. STPD did it in 24 hours two weeks ago. Again releasing the incident report is not going to do anything to hinder what the grand jury does.

[jcubspoe]

The St. Louis Police Department released an incident report less than 24 hours after two officers shot and killed a black kid. That was on August 19th. There's actual video of the incident that is flat out scary.

Ferguson PD was stupid enough to release the video of the convenience store, and didn't think they would ever release the name of the officer in question, even though it is the law.

Even if you think it would take weeks to complete an incident report, we are three days away from it being a month since this happened. STPD did it in 24 hours two weeks ago. Again releasing the incident report is not going to do anything to hinder what the grand jury does.

I see you are well versed in doing exactly what the main stream media does. In the STPD shooting, he wasn't a kid, not even close, he was 23 years old.

My guess is that shooting doesn't even go to Grand Jury, or if it does, it's so open and shut (grown man with a knife charges police yelling "kill me!!") it won't matter.

Again, this comes down to what I originally asked, "what is your definition of an incident report"? I'd be stunned, like Thor and others have said, if there isn't some very basic preliminary report done, but there's certainly thousands of pages of witnesses, ballistics, injuries, radio traffic, ect that will be presented in court as part of the investigation. The Ferguson PD shooting is as major of a news story as it gets right now in policing. The PD isn't going to release (if it's fully completed, it may be by this point) the "incident report" until court.

On top of this, would you believe anything in the police report anyway?? My guess is you would not...so what's your point?

[Juice]

I see you are well versed in doing exactly what the main stream media does. In the STPD shooting, he wasn't a kid, not even close, he was 23 years old.

My guess is that shooting doesn't even go to Grand Jury, or if it does, it's so open and shut (grown man with a knife charges police yelling "kill me!!") it won't matter.

Again, this comes down to what I originally asked, "what is your definition of an incident report"? I'd be stunned, like Thor and others have said, if there isn't some very basic preliminary report done, but there's certainly thousands of pages of witnesses, ballistics, injuries, radio traffic, ect that will be presented in court as part of the investigation. The Ferguson PD shooting is as major of a news story as it gets right now in policing. The PD isn't going to release (if it's fully completed, it may be by this point) the "incident report" until court.

On top of this, would you believe anything in the police report anyway?? My guess is you would not...so what's your point?

You're actually pretty much wrong on most of this and how an incident report is prepared. For most crimes/incidents, they're as small as one page and are done that day.

And as far as the definition of incident report goes, most times there is literally a form that says "Incident Report as defined by (relevant state code section)".

[jcubspoe]

I can assure you I'm not wrong about this but that's for a different day. It's why I agreed when I said if there isn't some very basic preliminary report (incident report) done

You are right about crimes/incidents being one page. Do you really think this is a one page incident report?? Ya, their initial report might be but it's going to have a ton left out of it if that's the case. And that was my point the whole time in defining an incident report. My guess is there is an incident report on the officer being assaulted but it's been marked "sensitive" or something of that nature so the media can't get to it. And this type of incident report is most likely not going to go into any detail whatsoever of the actual shooting. That's an internal investigation matter. (this is why I wanted DC to define his "incident report" term....you have the correct definition that most would agree with). Again, as I stated all along, they will reveal it in court. DC Muskie can claim that's wrong all he wants and that they didn't do this in the STPD shooting....apples to oranges media reaction in the two cases. Right or wrong....

[DC Muskie]

I see you are well versed in doing exactly what the main stream media does. In the STPD shooting, he wasn't a kid, not even close, he was 23 years old.

My guess is that shooting doesn't even go to Grand Jury, or if it does, it's so open and shut (grown man with a knife charges police yelling "kill me!!") it won't matter.

Again, this comes down to what I originally asked, "what is your definition of an incident report"? I'd be stunned, like Thor and others have said, if there isn't some very basic preliminary report done, but there's certainly thousands of pages of witnesses, ballistics, injuries, radio traffic, ect that will be presented in court as part of the investigation. The Ferguson PD shooting is as major of a news story as it gets right now in policing. The PD isn't going to release (if it's fully completed, it may be by this point) the "incident report" until court.

On top of this, would you believe anything in the police report anyway?? My guess is you would not...so what's your point?

Here we go...the old "media" argument! I'm sorry I'm old I think 23 year olds are kids. If that is your way to try and change the discussion, then you are you grasping at straws. You act like the guy is 47 or something.

If you think there is an incident report concerning Brown, then the District Attorney is lying, because he says there isn't one.

The police have released other things in the Brown case. How hard is it to produce a report of the incident?

The other incident is not an open and shut case. The officers were named and suspended. It's about being transparent, following procedure and the law. Just because the incident report says the kid, sorry young adult, is saying kill me, doesn't mean we all pack up and go home. The investigation continues.


I can assure you I'm not wrong about this but that's for a different day. It's why I agreed when I said if there isn't some very basic preliminary report (incident report) done

You are right about crimes/incidents being one page. Do you really think this is a one page incident report?? Ya, their initial report might be but it's going to have a ton left out of it if that's the case. And that was my point the whole time in defining an incident report. My guess is there is an incident report on the officer being assaulted but it's been marked "sensitive" or something of that nature so the media can't get to it. And this type of incident report is most likely not going to go into any detail whatsoever of the actual shooting. That's an internal investigation matter. (this is why I wanted DC to define his "incident report" term....you have the correct definition that most would agree with). Again, as I stated all along, they will reveal it in court. DC Muskie can claim that's wrong all he wants and that they didn't do this in the STPD shooting....apples to oranges media reaction in the two cases. Right or wrong....

You understand that an incident report is not the final conclusion of an investigation right? The police issue a phone number, tell everyone the investigation is still ongoing and anyone with information is asked to call.

You act like they have to take weeks to produce something because of how complicated the incident was. It's not at all.

Seriously it's part of procedure.

Two young black males, separated only by five years in age were shot and killed by white officers. One produced an incident report, explaining what happened, one has not. One police department has been transparent in following procedure, and the law, and other has not.

But keep bringing up the media's reaction, and ignoring the facts of how everything works. Always a useful tactic in discussions.

[Kahns Krazy]

I think what most people are looking for when they say "incident report" is the 1-2 page report commonly seen on sites like Smoking Gun, which is basically the officer's description of events.

It is hard to believe that such a statement of events does not exist in written form somewhere.

[SemajParlor]

Funny how hacked audio tapes revealing local PD were never informed of an incident is rarely brought up. Probably some crazy left wing media white guilt thing. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2724304/Anonymous-hacks-St-Louis-police-dispatch-tapes-releases-calls-surrounding-cop-shooting-Michael-Brown.html

[Kahns Krazy]

Funny how hacked audio tapes revealing local PD were never informed of an incident is rarely brought up. Probably some crazy left wing media white guilt thing. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2724304/Anonymous-hacks-St-Louis-police-dispatch-tapes-releases-calls-surrounding-cop-shooting-Michael-Brown.html

Is it standard procedure for a police department to inform neighboring police departments what is going on in their jurisdiction? Does Blue Ash have to inform Indian Hill, Cincinnati, West Chester and Mason every time something happens in Blue Ash? What is "funny" about this?

[Juice]

Is it standard procedure for a police department to inform neighboring police departments what is going on in their jurisdiction? Does Blue Ash have to inform Indian Hill, Cincinnati, West Chester and Mason every time something happens in Blue Ash? What is "funny" about this?

Sometimes yes depending on the situation. One reason may be to call for back up if they're a small agency and cannot handle the situation with the current officers on duty. Another reason may be because the suspect is traveling from say Montgomery to Blue Ash and want to put other agencies on alert.

[DC Muskie]

Funny how hacked audio tapes revealing local PD were never informed of an incident is rarely brought up. Probably some crazy left wing media white guilt thing. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2724304/Anonymous-hacks-St-Louis-police-dispatch-tapes-releases-calls-surrounding-cop-shooting-Michael-Brown.html

I gotta say I really hate Anonymous. They have a bus down here where someone stands on top of it everyday with a megaphone and shouts some stupid shit.

[Kahns Krazy]

Which is exactly what happened. Ferguson needed help with the crowd, and they called St. Louis, who prior to the call, had only seen it on TV. Keep in mind that the recordings released cover the period between 4 and 34 minutes after the shooting, so at the time it is very reasonable that there were a lot of people in the Ferguson police department that didn't know what was going on, much less people in other departments. For some reason, there is something funny about this to Semaj.

[SemajParlor]

Which is exactly what happened. Ferguson needed help with the crowd, and they called St. Louis, who prior to the call, had only seen it on TV. Keep in mind that the recordings released cover the period between 4 and 34 minutes after the shooting, so at the time it is very reasonable that there were a lot of people in the Ferguson police department that didn't know what was going on, much less people in other departments. For some reason, there is something funny about this to Semaj.

For starters, I think anyone who claims to know exactly what happened is pretty funny.

[PM Thor]

I gotta say I really hate Anonymous. They have a bus down here where someone stands on top of it everyday with a megaphone and shouts some stupid shit.

Those idiots, in their zeal "TO FIND THE TRUTH" released the name of the wrong cop in the shooting. Dolts.

[xu82]

Those idiots, in their zeal "TO FIND THE TRUTH" released the name of the wrong cop in the shooting. Dolts.

Yeah, maybe, but they were first! Isn't that what counts?

[vee4xu]

Just checking, any update on the white male shot and killed by the non-white officer in Salt Lake City?

Another point, every call that an officer sworn to serve and protect takes, each and every day he/she is an officer can be the one which can potentially result in that officer's death. Until you have lived with an police officer (I did) and know the day-to-day stress of going to work each day not knowing if you'll return home to your family at the end of your shift, then I think it is proper to sit back and wait for all the facts. I respect all the opinions shared here. It is everyone's right to say what they feel. However, one can speculate all one wants about incident reports, informing other forces about what's going on in your jurisdiction, white officers killing blacks, non-white officers killing whites and it is all just banter, unless what you post comes with knowing firsthand the stress of the job. I assure you, if you did know the stress of the job firsthand, you wouldn't be dealing in conjecture, because you just don't know for absolute certain what happened that night in Ferguson.

[PM Thor]

Just checking, any update on the white male shot and killed by the non-white officer in Salt Lake City?


You know Vee, I really do like you, but this is a completely BS argument. I know what you are going for, but you are completely reaching for a similar type connection, whereas it's not only overreaching, but completely making assumptions, as if a white dominated community faces the same discrimination from a police force that a black dominated community faces. Don't go to the lowest common denominator here, please.

[PM Thor]

And FYI, a cop got shot in the face and died tonight in Rochester, 5th cop shot there in 6 years, just for those who bash on them.

[vee4xu]

No worries. Thor. It's all good. But, I am just speaking from my heart and based on experience. In addition to my dad being an officer, one of my best friends who became an officer on my dad's force was murdered in 1983 when we were both 27 years old. He was killed by two 18 year old kids who were supposed to give him some info on a drug situation. Instead they robbed him and shot him in the back of his head. He was left for dead in an isolated parking lot on a cold January day. He never got to go home again. Also, in recent years I've had the honor to speak with a few widows and children of slain officers who also never were able to go home at the end of the shift on which they were killed. It is very humbling.

So, no hyperbole or theory here. I do come at my opinions with some very real firsthand experiences.

Peace.

[PM Thor]

Vee, I totally hear you. But your first line in that post has nothing to do with the second part of that post. I have nothing but sincere respect, and never doubt when an officer dies in the line of duty. We serve. We look out for one another. Or at least we try.

[Masterofreality]

And a Rochester NY police officer was shot and killed yesterday. I'll patiently await Eric Holder's DOJ deep investigation into his death and the RPD in general. :no:

[NY44]

And a Rochester NY police officer was shot and killed yesterday. I'll patiently await Eric Holder's DOJ deep investigation into his death and the RPD in general. :no:

I get the point you guys are making, and no one is arguing that there aren't heinous killings of police officers and that it's not an extremely tough job. The difference is in the aftermath. I don't know anything about these cases you mentioned, but I'm guessing justice was, or will be, swift and harsh for the killers.

[muskiefan82]

I get the point you guys are making, and no one is arguing that there aren't heinous killings of police officers and that it's not an extremely tough job. The difference is in the aftermath. I don't know anything about these cases you mentioned, but I'm guessing justice was, or will be, swift and harsh for the killers.

But what if, when the police find the killer(s), they pull up to him/her/them and the person attacks the officer then attempts to rush at the officer? Is the officer justified in shooting then? Even if the previous copkiller is now unarmed?

Split second decisions when working in unknowns and fear create difficult and oftentimes deadly outcomes. It's why civilians get killed in wars and it's why people get shot by police.

[vee4xu]

You're right about that first line Thor. That same experience that I list also is sometimes a source of frustration. That first line is editorial and doesn't add any context. But, human frailty took over for a minute.

You are a fine public servant too my friend. And my hat's off to you. Be safe. I pray that you and all public servants make it home at the end of all of your shifts.

And now I shall retire from this thread. ;-)

[SM#24]

And a Rochester NY police officer was shot and killed yesterday. I'll patiently await Eric Holder's DOJ deep investigation into his death and the RPD in general. :no:

Black man kills white officer. I was overtaken with outrage and went to the local suburban mall and appeased my outrage by looting the Apple store. I feel much better now.
#Outraged #Justice #DontFwithWhitey

[xu82]

Black man kills white officer. I was overtaken with outrage and went to the local suburban mall and appeased my outrage by looting the Apple store. I feel much better now.
#Outraged #Justice #DontFwithWhitey
#GoodFreeStuff?

[Masterofreality]

Black man kills white officer. I was overtaken with outrage and went to the local suburban mall and appeased my outrage by looting the Apple store. I feel much better now.
#Outraged #Justice #DontFwithWhitey

The white Rochester officer did not fire a shot at the black suspect who was wanted for a parole violation. The black suspect had a .25 calibre gun where the serial number was filed off. I expect Al Sharpton's outrage any hour now and demonstrations galore.

[xu82]

The white Rochester officer did not fire a shot at the black suspect who was wanted for a parole violation. The black suspect had a .25 calibre gun where the serial number was filed off. I expect Al Sharpton's outrage any hour now and demonstrations galore.

Please do not old your breath until this happens. There have been enough losses in Xavier Nation already.

[SM#24]

and demonstrations galore.

I tried to round up all my white brothers to demonstrate (peacefully of course), but no one could make it tomorrow...they all have jobs.

[paulxu]

The white Rochester officer did not fire a shot at the black suspect who was wanted for a parole violation. The black suspect had a .25 calibre gun where the serial number was filed off. I expect Al Sharpton's outrage any hour now and demonstrations galore.

That's somewhat at odds with what the police reported, but a sad situation no matter what.


Police said Officer Daryl Pierson was shot just before 9:30 p.m. Wednesday near Warsaw Street, when he and a suspect exchanged gunfire following a pursuit. Pierson was rushed to the hospital, but died from his injuries. - See more at: http://rochester.twcnews.com/content/news/766273/stretch-of-hudson-avenue-in-rochester-reopened-following-investigation/#sthash.9U4BkBj7.dpuf

[DC Muskie]

I simply don't understand why people want other people to be pissed about something else, rather than a situation that has many people concerned.

Not sure what the motivation is, but it's pretty stupid. It's like if you have a problem, no one should care because there are other problems to be concerned about.

[Masterofreality]

I simply don't understand why people want other people to be pissed about something else, rather than a situation that has many people concerned.

Not sure what the motivation is, but it's pretty stupid. It's like if you have a problem, no one should care because there are other problems to be concerned about.

People should be very sad at the death of a police officer, not pissed. The Rochester case once again proves, however, that the Police must make quick life and death decisions every day, as the officer in Ferguson had to. Just wondering exactly what the DOJ is trying to prove by launching a full scale investigation of a Police Department right now.

While it may be appropriate for the DOJ to look into an overall investigation of the Ferguson Police Departments hiring practices and arrest records, the timing of doing it reeks of granstanding by the Administration. How about the full investigation of the single incident be able to be completed first? IMO, the first priority should be to get the Brown case right, without the distraction of some other probes. To his credit, however, the Mayor of Ferguson says that he welcomes the DOJ probe and that the city has nothing to hide. I suppose. What else could he say?

I find it interesting though, that a city that is 67% black freely elected a white Republican Mayor. 5 of the 6 elected City Council members are white. That indicates to me that there was not really too much of a concern over the way the city was run...up until now. Maybe there were no viable black candidates, but if there were not, instead of lawlessness in the streets, how about getting involved in the City government by running for office and voting for alternatives if there are concerns? If there was apathy in the Black community during the last city elections, then they only have themselves to blame for what they have if they are unhappy. They have the power of the vote to change it.

Just seems inappropriate that on a day when a police officer loses his life in the line of duty, that the Feds decide to launch a probe into police practices. On top of that there is still a very important individual investigation to be completed. Maybe only coincidence, but still.........

[DC Muskie]

While it may be appropriate for the DOJ to look into an overall investigation of the Ferguson Police Departments hiring practices and arrest records, the timing of doing it reeks of granstanding by the Administration. How about the full investigation of the single incident be able to be completed first? IMO, the first priority should be to get the Brown case right, without the distraction of some other probes. To his credit, however, the Mayor of Ferguson says that he welcomes the DOJ probe and that the city has nothing to hide. I suppose. What else could he say?

I find it interesting though, that a city that is 63% black freely elected a white Republican Mayor. That indicates to me that there was not really too much of a concern over the way the city was run...up until now. Maybe there were no viable black candidates, but if there were not, instead of lawlessness in the streets, how about getting involved in the City government if there are concerns?

Just seems inappropriate that on a day when a police officer loses his life in the line of duty, that the Feds decide to launch a probe into police practices. Maybe only coincidence, but still.........

I don't agree with the idea of grandstanding at all. No administration would win in this situation. They got involved when they did because of the lack of transparency. The FPD wasn't going to release the name of the officer involved and that is the law. And when they did, they made sure the convenience store video was presented. That's just not right, by any reasonable conclusion.

I will say that both sides seem to agree that the people in Ferguson need to get off the sideline and participate in the process of electing the people who represent them. I saw an interview where an alderman or state senator said that the DA needed to be replaced, and the governor earlier that day said he wouldn't do it (which I agree with) and she said that the DA wasn't elected by black people.

I mean think about that statement for a minute. It's so sad, it's laughable. And this is from a person who actively participates in the process and this is the example she feels helps the situation.

I'm not sure what another police officer dying has anything to do with launching a probe into the practices of another police departments. Maybe if it was the same police department your point would hold water. But to me, there's never a perfect time to do these sorts of things. If the FPD would stop throwing tear gas and arresting people in the media and be more transparent and follow the law, then the DOJ wouldn't have to insert themselves.

[Masterofreality]

Of course, Ferguson and Rochester are two separate incidents in two different places. However, the connection is officers being (allegedly in Ferguson) in life threatening situations. One officer is alive, and he and his whole department are being investigated on multiple angles, one officer is dead.

And, I submit if wild throngs weren't running through the Ferguson streets, burning and looting in the first hours after the incident, there may have been a more organized response to the officer being named without fear of he or his family being harmed. In addition without the rioting, tear gas and arresting people would not have been needed either.

There are many points of responsibility....on both sides.

[DC Muskie]

When would have been a good time for the DOJ to investigate? They can't sit on the sidelines when the police department isn't being transparent and following the law. Forgetting the rioting, the police showed up with mine sweeping vehicles and snipers to a peaceful rally. I'm not saying they instigated the rioting, but they also didn't need to show up with that much force. And this is a city that never riots. They pride themselves on it, from what I have read.

Look not every person who is pissed in Ferguson is some thug, rioter, lazy ass taker of government assistance, who just needs to get up and get a real job like regular folks. This shooting wasn't some one off incident, this stuff has been building and building. There are genuine good people who live there and they are concerned that the FPD is not on their side. And yeah it might suck that we hold police departments to a higher standard, but what this has shown us, there is nothing keeping any police department in check.

We can be concerned about that without thinking every police department everywhere is filled with race hating bigots looking to shoot people.

[Masterofreality]

When would have been a good time for the DOJ to investigate? They can't sit on the sidelines when the police department isn't being transparent and following the law. Forgetting the rioting, the police showed up with mine sweeping vehicles and snipers to a peaceful rally. I'm not saying they instigated the rioting, but they also didn't need to show up with that much force. And this is a city that never riots. They pride themselves on it, from what I have read.

Look not every person who is pissed in Ferguson is some thug, rioter, lazy ass taker of government assistance, who just needs to get up and get a real job like regular folks. This shooting wasn't some one off incident, this stuff has been building and building. There are genuine good people who live there and they are concerned that the FPD is not on their side. And yeah it might suck that we hold police departments to a higher standard, but what this has shown us, there is nothing keeping any police department in check.

We can be concerned about that without thinking every police department everywhere is filled with race hating bigots looking to shoot people.

Well, we at least have common ground on your last two paragraphs, except for the "not a one off incident" statement. There were no shootings prior to this that I'm aware of. In fact, almost all the interviews I saw from Ferguson citizens indicated that it was a mixed community that worked together by and large. A white mayor and 5 of 6 council members being white with a 67% black community doesn't indicate a "problem with whitey" on the surface in the local political process. Were blacks traffic stopped more than whites? Yes, that's documented and transparent. While that is disturbing, it doesn't give an excuse to riot. Rather it should motivate more persons of color to get involved in city government to change it, both by running for office and voting. How about starting there, rather than hoping that the Feds will come in and clean up the house? Responsibility lies at home in a free voting, open society, does it not?

And to be clear. I didn't say that there should not be an investigation. However, how about letting the one that is now ongoing about the original Brown incident be completed first? One process at a time. There is certainly enough scrutiny on the FPD already where I would guess that they are looking over their shoulder in every case now. To announce a DOJ investigation now is grandstanding and pandering to a voter base.

By the way. If I am a police officer now, please, PLEASE put cameras all over me and my car. That way there is no question what may have happened.

[DC Muskie]

Well, we at least have common ground on your last two paragraphs, except for the "not a one off incident" statement. There were no shootings prior to this that I'm aware of. In fact, almost all the interviews I saw from Ferguson citizens indicated that it was a mixed community that worked together by and large. A white mayor and 5 of 6 council members being white with a 67% black community doesn't indicate a "problem with whitey" on the surface in the local political process. Were blacks traffic stopped more than whites? Yes, that's documented and transparent. While that is disturbing, it doesn't give an excuse to riot. Rather it should motivate more persons of color to get involved in city government to change it, both by running for office and voting. How about starting there, rather than hoping that the Feds will come in and clean up the house? Responsibility lies at home in a free voting, open society, does it not?

And to be clear. I didn't say that there should not be an investigation. However, how about letting the one that is now ongoing about the original Brown incident be completed first? One process at a time. There is certainly enough scrutiny on the FPD already where I would guess that they are looking over their shoulder in every case now. To announce a DOJ investigation now is grandstanding and pandering to a voter base.

By the way. If I am a police officer now, please, PLEASE put cameras all over me and my car. That way there is no question what may have happened.

Don't forget the Henry Davis incident. The tensions between the citizens and the cops was real.

You simply can't look at what the Ferguson Police has done since the incident and say, "well you don't vote, so don't expect the DOJ to come in and help because that is grandstanding."

Again, no police departments anywhere have any oversight. The only recourse people will have when there is questionable actions by police is through the courts and the federal government to protect civil liberties.

If at the end of this, two things come out:

1. People are more active in the voting process
2. Camera are installed in cars and on uniforms

Then there is some good.

[Masterofreality]

If at the end of this, two things come out:

1. People are more active in the voting process
2. Camera are installed in cars and on uniforms

Then there is some good.

We have 100% common ground on this for sure.

[paulxu]

The police in Ferguson have now been provided with cameras for their uniforms. They apparently have dash cams, but "not the money to install them."

I am a little confused on what effect having more black members of the city government would have on these situations. Police officers aren't voted into their jobs, and I'm not even sure that having more black officers on the force would necessarily impact police/citizen interaction in these particular incidences, but assumedly that is the theory.

The underlying issue remains (I think) that often black citizens are treated differently when there is interaction with law enforcement much more so than white citizens. To the extent that is true, and based on stereotyping, it will probably take more generations to overcome; which is unfortunate to say the least.

[waggy]

The police in Ferguson have now been provided with cameras for their uniforms. They apparently have dash cams, but "not the money to install them."

I am a little confused on what effect having more black members of the city government would have on these situations. Police officers aren't voted into their jobs, and I'm not even sure that having more black officers on the force would necessarily impact police/citizen interaction in these particular incidences, but assumedly that is the theory.

The underlying issue remains (I think) that often black citizens are treated differently when there is interaction with law enforcement much more so than white citizens. To the extent that is true, and based on stereotyping, it will probably take more generations to overcome; which is unfortunate to say the least.


The underlying issue is that the kid robbed a convenience store and then attacked a cop. A whole bunch a people would like to ignore that though, instead they want to attack the Ferguson PD for racial stereotyping. What a load of crap. I think just about everyone of those persons just need to look in the mirror if they want to see who really has racial bias.

[Juice]

The underlying issue is that the kid robbed a convenience store and then attacked a cop. A whole bunch a people would like to ignore that though, instead they want to attack the Ferguson PD for racial stereotyping. What a load of crap. I think just about everyone of those persons just need to look in the mirror if they want to see who really has racial bias.

No it's not. Believe it or not, crimes occur all the time and people wrestle and fight with cops by the hour in today's world. It absolutely sucks that police have to deal with that but it's what happens in the world today. This isn't some surprise to police. The underlying issue is whether the officer in this incident followed the correct protocol when dealing with a person who is resisting arrest, being unruly, etc.

Everyone agrees that Michael Brown broke the law. The issue is whether that officer did as well.

[DC Muskie]

The underlying issue is that the kid robbed a convenience store and then attacked a cop. A whole bunch a people would like to ignore that though, instead they want to attack the Ferguson PD for racial stereotyping. What a load of crap. I think just about everyone of those persons just need to look in the mirror if they want to see who really has racial bias.

People also need to realize there have been 5 separate lawsuits against police officers from Ferguson. One had three internal investigations and two lawsuits over violations of civil rights and was demoted due to credible evidence in one case before he was hired in Ferguson.

Hold up all the mirrors you want, but the evidence is there that this particular police department has some serious issues.

[NY44]

I think just about everyone of those persons just need to look in the mirror if they want to see who really has racial bias.

Yeah, white police officers really get a raw deal in this country. People asking them why they kill unarmed people just because the victims black. God. Can't we just leave them alone!

[waggy]

Mirror!

(it's like scoreboard)

[NY44]

Mirror!

(it's like scoreboard)

Scoreboard might be an appropriate thing to say to you. Since you seem to think that the police are the victims in police shootings.

[MHettel]

Forgetting the rioting, the police showed up with mine sweeping vehicles and snipers to a peaceful rally.

Finally! The payoff. Almost 900 posts on the topic and we get this gem. Let see if we can apply this approach to other situations...

"aside from the bone chilling cold, why are you wearing a coat"
"not considering the lack of oxygen, why dont you live underwater"
"ignoring the fact that you cant fly, why dont you jump off that building"

Yeah, actually it's totally ridiculous.

[MHettel]

People also need to realize there have been 5 separate lawsuits against police officers from Ferguson. One had three internal investigations and two lawsuits over violations of civil rights and was demoted due to credible evidence in one case before he was hired in Ferguson.

Hold up all the mirrors you want, but the evidence is there that this particular police department has some serious issues.

Another great example of the double standard.

If I said that 80% of the crime in Ferguson was committed by black people, and since Michael Brown is black, he's going to get a bit more scruitinzed, then I've just done racial profiling, and I probably have infringed upon his civil liberties.

But it's totally OK for you to cite a few mishaps by a few indivudial within a police department, then paint them all as corrupt and racist? How does that work exactly? This particular Officer MUST have shot Michael Brown execution style because in SOME places in this country SOME OTHER police officers did things that we dont approve of. So, guilty by association.

The other example of this occured early on. "the college bound unarmed black kid was shot by a police officer." What the hell does college have to do with anything? It's toally permissable for us to make character generalizations about college bound people and apply it to Michael Brown, but any other generalization is strictly prohibited?

You cant have it both ways. If you want this case to be resolved through the crimial justice and legal process, then you should sit back and watch it unfold. But you really DONT care about that. you just need a vehicle to bitch about your broader complaints (which may be entirely valid), and in the process you apply your own biases to the situation, and therefore Michael Brown is painted as an innocent victim of police brutaility. Case Closed.

[DC Muskie]

Yeah, actually it's totally ridiculous.

You realize military leaders agree with me, don't you?

“You’re in trouble when your SWAT team is on the front line of dealing with a civil disturbance,” Gen. Russell Honoré said Thursday.

I'm not surprised you didn't know. You know what, if we have a thread where we need to figure out how to save a pinball machine company from failing, you're the guy! Or if we need an expert on how to tell radio sports show hosts to do the job of GM Seattle teams, you're the first one we will all look towards for advice.

Other than that, yes, you are totally ridiculous.

[MHettel]

You realize military leaders agree with me, don't you?

“You’re in trouble when your SWAT team is on the front line of dealing with a civil disturbance,” Gen. Russell Honoré said Thursday.

I'm not surprised you didn't know. You know what, if we have a thread where we need to figure out how to save a pinball machine company from failing, you're the guy! Or if we need an expert on how to tell radio sports show hosts to do the job of GM Seattle teams, you're the first one we will all look towards for advice.

Other than that, yes, you are totally ridiculous.

Thats a deal then. And if we ever need someone to argue with a Fire Hydrant, you're our pick!

[DC Muskie]

Another great example of the double standard.

If I said that 80% of the crime in Ferguson was committed by black people, and since Michael Brown is black, he's going to get a bit more scruitinzed, then I've just done racial profiling, and I probably have infringed upon his civil liberties.

But it's totally OK for you to cite a few mishaps by a few indivudial within a police department, then paint them all as corrupt and racist? How does that work exactly? This particular Officer MUST have shot Michael Brown execution style because in SOME places in this country SOME OTHER police officers did things that we dont approve of. So, guilty by association.

The other example of this occured early on. "the college bound unarmed black kid was shot by a police officer." What the hell does college have to do with anything? It's toally permissable for us to make character generalizations about college bound people and apply it to Michael Brown, but any other generalization is strictly prohibited?

You cant have it both ways. If you want this case to be resolved through the crimial justice and legal process, then you should sit back and watch it unfold. But you really DONT care about that. you just need a vehicle to bitch about your broader complaints (which may be entirely valid), and in the process you apply your own biases to the situation, and therefore Michael Brown is painted as an innocent victim of police brutaility. Case Closed.

Seriously, does someone piss in your cheerios everyday?

What I actually have said, that you completely ignore in your blind rage against everything I write, is that this particular problem with the Ferguson Police department is troubling. How can you not see that with the evidence over the past 4 years? They arrested a wrong guy, beat him up then cited him for getting blood on their clothes.

I'm certainly not whitewashing all police officers, I think you get to that conclusion because you are filled with piss covered cherrios and rage.

And what does me posting on a messageboard about Xavier basketball have anything to do with not letting the process unfold? I'm actually asking why certain procedures haven't been followed. If you don't like it, then ignore me, or ignore the thread. It's not that hard.

I mean people are assuming I want a certain outcome. What I want to see is more information given out in a timely manner and have demonstrated examples of how it was done in other places.

I know that Michael Brown was an unarmed kid who was shot in the head by a police officer. You've called the kid a thug, I have not once called Wilson some racist cop who murders someone. I'd like to see an incident report of what happened, and we are close to a month. Really not that hard to understand.

[DC Muskie]

Thats a deal then. And if we ever need someone to argue with a Fire Hydrant, you're our pick!

You are absolutely terrible when trying to insult me. Take a course from a few other people and at least make it interesting. PMI would be a good start.

[Kahns Krazy]

You are absolutely terrible when trying to insult me. Take a course from a few other people and at least make it interesting. PMI would be a good start.

Are you saying that Mick Cronin wouldn't win against a Fire Hydrant?

[MHettel]

You are absolutely terrible when trying to insult me. Take a course from a few other people and at least make it interesting. PMI would be a good start.

You are absolutley terrible at trying to make me think I'm terrible at insulting you.

[DC Muskie]

You are absolutley terrible at trying to make me think I'm terrible at insulting you.

Okay George.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0KmTTy_MM5w

[paulxu]

An incident report of the incident would probably help this thread.

[GoMuskies]

Can we get _LH in here to decide this one? I need to know who has had a nice try, and who has had a PERFECT try.

[paulxu]

Well, I'm pretty sure "that's" been covered...whatever "that" is.

[GoMuskies]

No, I'm pretty sure only this has been covered and not that. But nice try.

[paulxu]

Damn.

[MHettel]

Seriously, does someone piss in your cheerios everyday?

What I actually have said, that you completely ignore in your blind rage against everything I write, is that this particular problem with the Ferguson Police department is troubling. How can you not see that with the evidence over the past 4 years? They arrested a wrong guy, beat him up then cited him for getting blood on their clothes.

I'm certainly not whitewashing all police officers, I think you get to that conclusion because you are filled with piss covered cherrios and rage.

And what does me posting on a messageboard about Xavier basketball have anything to do with not letting the process unfold? I'm actually asking why certain procedures haven't been followed. If you don't like it, then ignore me, or ignore the thread. It's not that hard.

I mean people are assuming I want a certain outcome. What I want to see is more information given out in a timely manner and have demonstrated examples of how it was done in other places.

I know that Michael Brown was an unarmed kid who was shot in the head by a police officer. You've called the kid a thug, I have not once called Wilson some racist cop who murders someone. I'd like to see an incident report of what happened, and we are close to a month. Really not that hard to understand.

I rarely have breakfast.

And, what OTHER officers might have done to OTHER people in OTHER situations has no bearing on what actually happened in this case. None.

And, your professional assesment of what procedures have or have not been followed seems to indicate that you have some insight of these exact procedures. You even go so far as to say the Feds had to move in to FORCE the release of the officers name, although in reality, thats more of a theory on your part.

Lets not overlook your intimate knowlegde of police procedure as it pertains to incident reports. Actually, I'm kind of leaning toward the conclusion that you dont know a fucking thing about what you are talking about. And this isn't my only data point when it comes to you just talking out of your ass. I'm quite certain the police are taking everything very seriously, and it doesnt appear that satisfying you with an incident report is very high on their list. Maybe you should swing on over to the President's office, Mr. Big Shot, and have him personally supervise the producing of this incident report, and then you can get off the ledge. And if that doesn't work, I have another suggestion on how you can get off the ledge.

[waggy]

You realize military leaders agree with me, don't you?

“You’re in trouble when your SWAT team is on the front line of dealing with a civil disturbance,” Gen. Russell Honoré said Thursday.

I'm not surprised you didn't know. You know what, if we have a thread where we need to figure out how to save a pinball machine company from failing, you're the guy! Or if we need an expert on how to tell radio sports show hosts to do the job of GM Seattle teams, you're the first one we will all look towards for advice.

Other than that, yes, you are totally ridiculous.


Who's is supposed to be on the frontline DC? Are local police forces in this country supposed be set-up for mob control? Is that what you want? That's rhetorical btw.

This is a witch hunt. First they're too heavy handed, but yet they're ineffective. Say again? Please spew your garbage elsewhere.

[jcubspoe]

Another great example of the double standard.

If I said that 80% of the crime in Ferguson was committed by black people, and since Michael Brown is black, he's going to get a bit more scruitinzed, then I've just done racial profiling, and I probably have infringed upon his civil liberties.

But it's totally OK for you to cite a few mishaps by a few indivudial within a police department, then paint them all as corrupt and racist? How does that work exactly? This particular Officer MUST have shot Michael Brown execution style because in SOME places in this country SOME OTHER police officers did things that we dont approve of. So, guilty by association.

The other example of this occured early on. "the college bound unarmed black kid was shot by a police officer." What the hell does college have to do with anything? It's toally permissable for us to make character generalizations about college bound people and apply it to Michael Brown, but any other generalization is strictly prohibited?

You cant have it both ways. If you want this case to be resolved through the crimial justice and legal process, then you should sit back and watch it unfold. But you really DONT care about that. you just need a vehicle to bitch about your broader complaints (which may be entirely valid), and in the process you apply your own biases to the situation, and therefore Michael Brown is painted as an innocent victim of police brutaility. Case Closed.

^^^^^^^Reps

[DC Muskie]

I rarely have breakfast.

And, what OTHER officers might have done to OTHER people in OTHER situations has no bearing on what actually happened in this case. None.

And, your professional assesment of what procedures have or have not been followed seems to indicate that you have some insight of these exact procedures. You even go so far as to say the Feds had to move in to FORCE the release of the officers name, although in reality, thats more of a theory on your part.

Lets not overlook your intimate knowlegde of police procedure as it pertains to incident reports. Actually, I'm kind of leaning toward the conclusion that you dont know a fucking thing about what you are talking about. And this isn't my only data point when it comes to you just talking out of your ass. I'm quite certain the police are taking everything very seriously, and it doesnt appear that satisfying you with an incident report is very high on their list. Maybe you should swing on over to the President's office, Mr. Big Shot, and have him personally supervise the producing of this incident report, and then you can get off the ledge. And if that doesn't work, I have another suggestion on how you can get off the ledge.

Seriously dude, you need to like jerk off or something, release of all that frustration you have built up.

I never said the Feds had to come in and force the FPD to release the name of the officer. You pulled that one out of your ass.

I'm not surprised you don't understand that what OTHER officers have done in the SAME police DEPARTMENT in regards to treating black suspects does in fact matter.

And really what I have been asking is not something that takes a whole lot of insight to figure out. An incident happened, that is followed by a report. I'm just wondering why there hasn't been one. You seem to think there is, while I have quoted the DA who has said there isn't. You seem more focused on me asking the question, rather then the actual lack of transparency of the entire situation. Again, not something that is hard to figure out. I have given an example where another police department was immediately transparent where officers shot and killed a black suspect.

You know what MH, take a break from reading my posts. They obviously upset you. All I have done is ask questions about following procedures, back them up with examples and evidence and all you can come up with are fire hydrants and wishing I would jump off a bridge.

[DC Muskie]

Who's is supposed to be on the frontline DC? Are local police forces in this country supposed be set-up for mob control? Is that what you want? That's rhetorical btw.

This is a witch hunt. First they're too heavy handed, but yet they're ineffective. Say again? Please spew your garbage elsewhere.

I'm just going to go with the fact that once they moved their military vehicles out, the situation lessened. Of course it also could have been because they already stole everything. Who knows, right?

[DC Muskie]

This is a great article regarding the lessons learned from the Cincinnati riots in 2001.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/cincinnati-still-healing-from-its-riots-and-has-lessons-to-share-with-ferguson/2014/09/05/2ff8b944-34a1-11e4-9e92-0899b306bbea_story.html?hpid=z6

Here's some highlights which support once again, the questions that I'm asking are not unreasonable:

Last month, when two city police officers shot Donyale Rowe to death after they had pulled him over for changing lanes without signaling, Cincinnati’s police chief immediately named the officers involved and published their performance reviews, described how Rowe had pulled a gun on the cops and released video of the incident from the squad car’s camera. The shooting resulted in minimal news coverage and no signs of anger on the streets. Leaders of the 2001 protests said the police had apparently acted appropriately.

Wow immediately transparent. Just like in the St. Louis shooting.

Then there's this:

Blackwell and his top brass reel off a long list of mistakes they saw their counterparts in Ferguson make in the days after a white police officer in the town outside St. Louis shot and killed Michael Brown, an unarmed black teen: Cops reluctant to release details of the incident, cops refusing to name the officer who shot Brown, cops responding to violence with military equipment and black gloves, which some police forces have banned because they seem intimidating.

Hmm, I swear this is the same list me and a few others have mentioned. Yep, upon review this is in fact the same list. Well except the black gloves part.

Anyway, like I said, a great read. It looks like things are getting better in Cincinnati and it looks like both sides are trying to continue to get better.

[waggy]

I'm just going to go with the fact that once they moved their military vehicles out, the situation lessened. Of course it also could have been because they already stole everything. Who knows, right?

Oh God what a bunch of crybaby bullshit. Please make the armored vehicle go away mommy.

None of this happens if Brown doesn't assault an officer and bust his eye socket and try to take his gun. And then his accomplice doesn't tell half truths about the incident. And then a mob of mensa members put there collective brain trust together and decide that rioting is "intelligent".

It's clear who the racists are. Mirror!

[Juice]

Vox ‏@voxdotcom 56s
Black people are 5x as likely as white people to be injured by police: http://bit.ly/1CGjQ6J (h/t @SunFoundation)

It doesn't say whether the use of force/injuries were justified or not but it's still interesting to look at.

[NY44]

Another great example of the double standard.

If I said that 80% of the crime in Ferguson was committed by black people, and since Michael Brown is black, he's going to get a bit more scruitinzed, then I've just done racial profiling, and I probably have infringed upon his civil liberties.

But it's totally OK for you to cite a few mishaps by a few indivudial within a police department, then paint them all as corrupt and racist? How does that work exactly? This particular Officer MUST have shot Michael Brown execution style because in SOME places in this country SOME OTHER police officers did things that we dont approve of. So, guilty by association.

The other example of this occured early on. "the college bound unarmed black kid was shot by a police officer." What the hell does college have to do with anything? It's toally permissable for us to make character generalizations about college bound people and apply it to Michael Brown, but any other generalization is strictly prohibited?

You cant have it both ways. If you want this case to be resolved through the crimial justice and legal process, then you should sit back and watch it unfold. But you really DONT care about that. you just need a vehicle to bitch about your broader complaints (which may be entirely valid), and in the process you apply your own biases to the situation, and therefore Michael Brown is painted as an innocent victim of police brutaility. Case Closed.

Yes, there is a double standard between police and citizens. Do we really need to cover this? One has been sworn to protect, the other hasn't.

Yes, it is racial profiling for Brown to be more scrutinized because he is black. I'm pretty sure that's literally the definition of racial profiling...

Yes, it is ok to cite a few mishaps by a few police officers within a police department. Police officers within a police department share the same leadership and organization. You know, since it's a department and all.. If there are a few mishaps in one department over time it can be an indication of a bigger problem than simple "mishaps".

Police Departments are entities with clear controls and leadership, officers are not just individuals in that sense. It's fair to cite the mishaps because once they happened, leadership should have taken steps to make sure they didn't repeat. FPD has clearly not done this based on these incidents in the past. However, it is unfair to cite the crimes of other black men as an excuse to treat all black men as criminals. Citizens and criminals are individual people without clear controls and leadership. They aren't part of some uniform force that needs to change the way they act because other people of their race have had "mishaps".

[DC Muskie]

Yes, there is a double standard between police and citizens. Do we really need to cover this? One has been sworn to protect, the other hasn't.

Yes, it is racial profiling for Brown to be more scrutinized because he is black. I'm pretty sure that's literally the definition of racial profiling...

Yes, it is ok to cite a few mishaps by a few police officers within a police department. Police officers within a police department share the same leadership and organization. You know, since it's a department and all.. If there are a few mishaps in one department over time it can be an indication of a bigger problem than simple "mishaps".

Police Departments are entities with clear controls and leadership, officers are not just individuals in that sense. It's fair to cite the mishaps because once they happened, leadership should have taken steps to make sure they didn't repeat. FPD has clearly not done this based on these incidents in the past. However, it is unfair to cite the crimes of other black men as an excuse to treat all black men as criminals. Citizens and criminals are individual people without clear controls and leadership. They aren't part of some uniform force that needs to change the way they act because other people of their race have had "mishaps".

^^^^^^^Reps

[MHettel]

Yes, there is a double standard between police and citizens. Do we really need to cover this? One has been sworn to protect, the other hasn't.

Yes, it is racial profiling for Brown to be more scrutinized because he is black. I'm pretty sure that's literally the definition of racial profiling...

Yes, it is ok to cite a few mishaps by a few police officers within a police department. Police officers within a police department share the same leadership and organization. You know, since it's a department and all.. If there are a few mishaps in one department over time it can be an indication of a bigger problem than simple "mishaps".

Police Departments are entities with clear controls and leadership, officers are not just individuals in that sense. It's fair to cite the mishaps because once they happened, leadership should have taken steps to make sure they didn't repeat. FPD has clearly not done this based on these incidents in the past. However, it is unfair to cite the crimes of other black men as an excuse to treat all black men as criminals. Citizens and criminals are individual people without clear controls and leadership. They aren't part of some uniform force that needs to change the way they act because other people of their race have had "mishaps".

Well, at least you acknowledge the double standard. Thats a start.

[waggy]

Brown was scrutinized because he was black? I guess people preoccupied with race just make shit up in their head.

Maybe he was "scrutinized" because he was too fucking stupid not to walk in the middle of the road.

[Xville]

If you are the 1000th reply in this thread do you win some kind of prize? I feel like Ed Mcmahon should show up at that person's doorstep with a ridiculous amount of balloons and a large cardboard check or something

[DC Muskie]

If you are the 1000th reply in this thread do you win some kind of prize? I feel like Ed Mcmahon should show up at that person's doorstep with a ridiculous amount of balloons and a large cardboard check or something

If the balloons were filled with hot air, then yes I certainly hope so!

[bigdiggins]

Too bad Ray Rice isn't going to be jay-walking in Ferguson any time soon.

[xubrew]

If you are the 1000th reply in this thread do you win some kind of prize? I feel like Ed Mcmahon should show up at that person's doorstep with a ridiculous amount of balloons and a large cardboard check or something

the lucky person will win an all expense paid trip (by them) to the wonderful city of Ferguson, Missouri!!!

[vee4xu]

the lucky person will win an all expense paid trip (by them) to the wonderful city of Ferguson, Missouri!!!

Does that trip include protest signs, or would we have to make our own?

[DC Muskie]

Does that trip include protest signs, or would we have to make our own?

I'm not sure, but I imagine you will be greeted by your own tank, complete with sniper, police dressed in riot gear, and along with a few German shepherds!

So much fun, you'll cry like a baby!

[NY44]

Brown was scrutinized because he was black? I guess people preoccupied with race just make shit up in their head.

"Scrutinized" was a quote from ya boy (MHettel), Wilbon. So yeah, I guess you're right.

[waggy]

"Scrutinized" was a quote from ya boy (MHettel), Wilbon. So yeah, I guess you're right.

So you are admitting that this really had nothing to do with racism, except for what you imagined in your mind.

[NY44]

So you are admitting that this really had nothing to do with racism, except for what you imagined in your mind.

That's not what we're discussing. I'm discussing this:


If I said that 80% of the crime in Ferguson was committed by black people, and since Michael Brown is black, he's going to get a bit more scruitinzed, then I've just done racial profiling, and I probably have infringed upon his civil liberties.

Try to keep up.

[Juice]

@blackink12: The former mayor of #Ferguson said he was raised by a single mother and grew up on food stamps. "I understand some of your circumstances."

Holy shit. Talk about not getting what any of this is about.

[xubrew]

This is how the situation should have been handled. Knock him out, and then make him clean up his own blood before he's arrested. Everybody wins!....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ehZ7fYDVtiY

[XU 87]

Scoreboard might be an appropriate thing to say to you. Since you seem to think that the police are the victims in police shootings.

If wrongfully accused, then they are.

[NY44]

If wrongfully accused, then they are.

How about wrongly convicted? infinity-0?

[XU 87]

How about wrongly convicted? infinity-0?

I agree, if a cop is wrongfully convicted for shooting someone, then he or she would be a victim in that situation as well.

[NY44]

I agree, if a cop is wrongfully convicted for shooting someone, then he or she would be a victim in that situation as well.

You misunderstood me. I'm saying that officers are never wrongfully convicted of shootings, if convicted at all.

This is it. The push we need to get this thread to 1,000.

[Masterofreality]

You misunderstood me. I'm saying that officers are never wrongfully convicted of shootings, if convicted at all.

This is it. The push we need to get this thread to 1,000.

Wellllllllll, in Cleveland, they've indicted 2 cops for allegedly doing just that.

[SemajParlor]

http://www.cnn.com/2014/09/10/us/ferguson-michael-brown-shooting-witnesses/index.html?hpt=hp_t3

[NY44]

Wellllllllll, in Cleveland, they've indicted 2 cops for allegedly doing just that.

I'd be interested in reading about that. Do you have a link?

I know earlier DC had a link saying no officer in Wisconsin has ever been convicted of wrongful killings. Maybe other areas are more strict.

[XU 87]

You misunderstood me. I'm saying that officers are never wrongfully convicted of shootings, if convicted at all.

This is it. The push we need to get this thread to 1,000.

How do you know that a cop has "never" been wrongfully convicted? Not one? Have you done post trial work analysis of every single case where a cop was convicted?

[Masterofreality]

I'd be interested in reading about that. Do you have a link?

I know earlier DC had a link saying no officer in Wisconsin has ever been convicted of wrongful killings. Maybe other areas are more strict.

Actually, 6 have been indicted. One patrolman and 5 supervisors.

C'mon people. You have to trust the system sometimes rather than thinking that everybody is getting away with everything.

http://www.cleveland.com/court-justice/index.ssf/2014/05/cleveland_police_chase_and_sho.html

By the way, NO riots in Cleveland. Just calm analysis.

[xubrew]

Actually, 6 have been indicted. One patrolman and 5 supervisors.

C'mon people. You have to trust the system sometimes rather than thinking that everybody is getting away with everything.

http://www.cleveland.com/court-justice/index.ssf/2014/05/cleveland_police_chase_and_sho.html

By the way, NO riots in Cleveland. Just calm analysis.


Just wait until the Browns win the Super Bowl. It will be awhile, but just wait.....

[NY44]

Actually, 6 have been indicted. One patrolman and 5 supervisors.

C'mon people. You have to trust the system sometimes rather than thinking that everybody is getting away with everything.

http://www.cleveland.com/court-justice/index.ssf/2014/05/cleveland_police_chase_and_sho.html

By the way, NO riots in Cleveland. Just calm analysis.

People aren't satisfied with indictments because the victims are still dead.

[Kahns Krazy]

http://www.cnn.com/2014/09/10/us/ferguson-michael-brown-shooting-witnesses/index.html?hpt=hp_t3

This is one of the more interesting accounts I have heard. The fact that it appears to independently corroborate the "hands up" and is documented before the subject could have possibly had time to collude with other witnesses lends credibility to the argument at least at some point, Brown had his hands in the air.

The apparent lack of connection to the community also removes any motivation that might influence relatives or neighbor's accounts of the scene.

[XU 87]

People aren't satisfied with indictments because the victims are still dead.

So what satisfy the "people"? A public hanging of the officers without a trial?

[NY44]

So what satisfy the "people"? A public hanging of the officers without a trial?

When they're confident that police are protecting all people, not just the white ones. It's not about retribution or revenge. It's about admitting there's a problem and doing something to change it.

[SemajParlor]

This is one of the more interesting accounts I have heard. The fact that it appears to independently corroborate the "hands up" and is documented before the subject could have possibly had time to collude with other witnesses lends credibility to the argument at least at some point, Brown had his hands in the air.

The apparent lack of connection to the community also removes any motivation that might influence relatives or neighbor's accounts of the scene.

Well put and agreed. The "he wasn't a threat!" and hands up gesture from bystanders who are presumed to be impartial is pretty alarming...

[Xville]

When they're confident that police are protecting all people, not just the white ones. It's not about retribution or revenge. It's about admitting there's a problem and doing something to change it.

while they are at it..they should also admit there is a problem with robbing and assaulting owners of convenience stores and doing something to change that.

[XU 87]

When they're confident that police are protecting all people, not just the white ones. It's not about retribution or revenge. It's about admitting there's a problem and doing something to change it.

So what's the problem? Is this problem with all police forces or just Ferguson and, apparently, Cleveland?

[Masterofreality]

People aren't satisfied with indictments because the victims are still dead.


So what satisfy the "people"? A public hanging of the officers without a trial?

Really,what do you want? Cleveland has a pretty effective black mayor with good black representation on the police force.

There will be a trial and the truth will come out. By the way, that Police Officer in Rochester is still dead too.

[NY44]

while they are at it..they should also admit there is a problem with robbing and assaulting owners of convenience stores and doing something to change that.

Please see post #907 on why that argument is crap.

[XU 87]

Please see post #907 on why that argument is crap.

So you don't think there is a problem with robbing and assaulting convenience store owners? Do you think we have a problem with black on black crime?

[Xville]

Please see post #907 on why that argument is crap.

what argument..I guess you don't think robbing and assaulting owners of convenience stores is a problem?

[Xville]

i'm so sick and tired of this police are mean argument....you know there are plenty of people both white and black that never have an issue with cops...you know why? Because they don't put themselves in the position to have an issue. period...end of story. If people had a little respect for authority, these type of problems wouldn't occur.

I'll give you a quick scenario. I was allegedly speeding on the way to a sales call in Owensboro, Ky...now I never saw a speed limit sign, but it was an area unfamiliar to me and not a route I usually take so I could have very well been speeding...so all of a sudden a cop comes up behind me and and the lights start flashing. So, this is the point where it could have been a high speed chase, or i could have pulled over and started arguing with the cop, or option #3 which is what I did---said yes sir no sir sorry sir and got my ticket, even though in the back of my mind I was thinking this guy is an asshole, im going to be late for my sales call, and where the hell was the posted speed limit sign (there wasn't one) which I found out later on.

Anyways, the point I'm trying to make here is that though the cops could have possibly been wrong in Cleveland or Ferguson or wherever, all of those situations could have been avoided if people would just shut their mouths, obey the law in the first place, or accept the punishment that they were about to be given...period, end of story.

[NY44]

Really,what do you want? Cleveland has a pretty effective black mayor with good black representation on the police force.

There will be a trial and the truth will come out. By the way, that Police Officer in Rochester is still dead too.

I want data on police shootings to be gathered. I also want all police shooting investigations to be independent of the Police Departments who have committed them. I think there's an obvious risk of conflicting interests there.

[Juice]

i'm so sick and tired of this police are mean argument....you know there are plenty of people both white and black that never have an issue with cops...you know why? Because they don't put themselves in the position to have an issue. period...end of story. If people had a little respect for authority, these type of problems wouldn't occur.

I'll give you a quick scenario. I was allegedly speeding on the way to a sales call in Owensboro, Ky...now I never saw a speed limit sign, but it was an area unfamiliar to me and not a route I usually take so I could have very well been speeding...so all of a sudden a cop comes up behind me and and the lights start flashing. So, this is the point where it could have been a high speed chase, or i could have pulled over and started arguing with the cop, or option #3 which is what I did---said yes sir no sir sorry sir and got my ticket, even though in the back of my mind I was thinking this guy is an asshole, im going to be late for my sales call, and where the hell was the posted speed limit sign (there wasn't one) which I found out later on.

Anyways, the point I'm trying to make here is that though the cops could have possibly been wrong in Cleveland or Ferguson or wherever, all of those situations could have been avoided if people would just shut their mouths, obey the law in the first place, or accept the punishment that they were about to be given...period, end of story.

Your argument insinuates that all law breakers shouldn't be surprised if cops beat them up or shoot them. Everyone involved in this thread acknowledges that Michael Brown broke the law. He would have answered to a judge or jury for that crime. The police, whether dealing with innocent or guilty people, still have to obey the laws and guidelines given to them. The laws of this country are bullshit if we allow cops to do whatever they want simply because a person is most likely or is a criminal. Police aren't normal citizens.

Plus, your argument and XU87's argument about black on black crime just change the subject from police relations with minorities, which aren't the same as police relations with whites.

[Xville]

Your argument insinuates that all law breakers shouldn't be surprised if cops beat them up or shoot them. Everyone involved in this thread acknowledges that Michael Brown broke the law. He would have answered to a judge or jury for that crime. The police, whether dealing with innocent or guilty people, still have to obey the laws and guidelines given to them. The laws of this country are bullshit if we allow cops to do whatever they want simply because a person is most likely or is a criminal. Police aren't normal citizens.

Plus, your argument and XU87's argument about black on black crime just change the subject from police relations with minorities, which aren't the same as police relations with whites.

i never said anything about black on black crime, and your argument on the part about police relations with minorities aren't the same as police relations with whites is opinion.

also where in my argument do I insinuate that all law breakers shouldn't be surprised if cops beat them up or shoot them? What I am saying is don't be surprised when you break the law, (then argue with them, assault them, or don't do what they are telling you to do) that they have a negative reaction to it.

[xubrew]

while they are at it..they should also admit there is a problem with robbing and assaulting owners of convenience stores and doing something to change that.


So you don't think there is a problem with robbing and assaulting convenience store owners? Do you think we have a problem with black on black crime?

Robbing and assaulting convenience store owners is a problem. Black on black crime is also a problem. There are other problems that you're not mentioning as well. Yes, they're problems. The thing is that, whether you mean to or not, you come off sounding like you're trying to sidetrack one problem by pointing to other problems that aren't directly related.

A police officer not being able to apprehend a suspect who isn't armed without killing him/her is a problem. Ideally, you'd like them to be able to detain unarmed people without killing him....at least I'd like to think so. Yes, the guy just robbed a convenient store, but the officer didn't know that. Even if he did know, it doesn't change the situation. The guy could have been both the biggest prick and the biggest idiot in the world, but still. I'd like to think that we should expect the cops to be able to detain them without killing them.

As far as their being a double standard for cops, of course their is. Why wouldn't there be?? Someone who enforces the law for a living should be able to handle themselves in that situation far better than someone who doesn't do it for a living. If not, then why have a police academy?? Why have any screening process or hiring process at all?? Why not just hire anybody to be a cop and put them out there??

I have a lot of respect for law enforcement. But, I also understand why people would be angry whenever an officers cannot apprehend unarmed suspects without using more submissive force than what is necessary, and/or killing them, ESPECIALLY if they feel that it's only happening to a certain demographic of people. Furthermore, I don't understand why other people cannot understand that.

But, to answer your questions and concerns, yes. Black on black crime is an issue. Robbing convenience stores and assaulting the clerks who work there is also an issue.

[Juice]

i never said anything about black on black crime, and your argument on the part about police relations with minorities aren't the same as police relations with whites is opinion.

If you read what I wrote I clearly said XU87's argument about black on black crime. And if you don't think that police relations are different with whites and minorities than we cannot have a conversation about this subject. I will say that the large majority of police officers are good people who do their job as they've sworn to do it. But it's naive to think that whites and blacks don't experience the criminal justice system in different ways.

[muskienick]

Just wait until the Browns win the Super Bowl. It will be awhile, but just wait.....

By that time, everyone in Cleveland will be in hovercrafts on auto pilot drinking Black Bush. They'd be too mellow to riot, streets will not be necessary (so nobody would be walking down the middle of them against the wishes of a Police Officer), and Cleveland would have become a tropical lakeside resort after global warming (renamed the "MOR Effect" after his full conversion to its reality) had fully kicked in.

[Kahns Krazy]

When they're confident that police are protecting all people, not just the white ones. It's not about retribution or revenge. It's about admitting there's a problem and doing something to change it.

You know police are not out there to protect law-breakers, right? They are there to protect law abiding citizens from crime, which includes having your shit stolen and getting roughed up. They should avoid shooting criminals when possible, but the role of the police force is to enforce the laws of the community, not "protect all people".

[NY44]

So you don't think there is a problem with robbing and assaulting convenience store owners? Do you think we have a problem with black on black crime?

Reps to Brew. I can't say it any better than he did. Even though I'm pretty proud of that #907 post.

[NY44]

You know police are not out there to protect law-breakers, right? They are there to protect law abiding citizens from crime, which includes having your shit stolen and getting roughed up. They should avoid shooting criminals when possible, but the role of the police force is to enforce the laws of the community, not "protect all people".

EDIT: When the police treat white people and black people the same.

[vee4xu]

And now this message from your sponsor on 9/11:


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Let's pause and remember all of these folks and their families.

[Masterofreality]

I want data on police shootings to be gathered. I also want all police shooting investigations to be independent of the Police Departments who have committed them. I think there's an obvious risk of conflicting interests there.

Well, the Police ARE SWORN to uphold the law, and there is hell to pay when they don't.

And, by the way, the Local DA sure is able to run an investigation.

[Masterofreality]

EDIT: When the police treat white people and black people the same.

You mean the "white police" right? Because there are, you know, fine Black Police officers too. And Black Lieutenants, and Black Captains, and Black Chiefs.

You do realize that, right?

[NY44]

You mean the "white police" right? Because there are, you know, fine Black Police officers too. And Black Lieutenants, and Black Captains, and Black Chiefs.

You do realize that, right?

You're putting words in my mouth and then arguing against them.

[PM Thor]

The newly released video of the two construction workers reacting to the shooting is pretty damning of the police officer. Two guys, with no connection whatsoever to the events at hand, basically throw their hands up and say that he had his hands in the air when he was shot and killed.

[SemajParlor]

The newly released video of the two construction workers reacting to the shooting is pretty damning of the police officer. Two guys, with no connection whatsoever to the evens at hand, basically throw their hands up and say that he had his hands in the air when he was shot and killed.

How many more people need to say they saw a murder before an arrest can be made? 5, 10?

[waggy]

One guy puts his hands in the air and it's murder? He didn't even want to be identified. The other guy doesn't even move.

So how many people have made a statement that they were there and that they witnessed a murder?

[Juice]

One guy puts his hands in the air and it's murder? He didn't even want to be identified. The other guy doesn't even move.

So how many people have made a statement that they were there and that they witnessed a murder?

Yeah I'm sure tons if people want to be involved in this dumpster fire

[waggy]

Yeah I'm sure tons if people want to be involved in this dumpster fire


I don't see what the problem is in coming forward if you were an actual witness to what happened.

The town rioted based on the accounts of a kid that was with Brown. I'd call that support. So I believe a legitmate credible account from an actual eyewitness would be well received.

The biggest problem is that most people see what they want to see, and hear what they want to hear. And no amount of video evidence or eyewitness accounts debunking their ideas will change them. For example, Brown clearly robs a convenience store, but to some people it's as if that is no reflection on who Brown was at all.

[NY44]

So how many people have made a statement that they were there and that they witnessed a murder?

1. Dorian Johnson
2. Michael Brady
3. Piaget Crenshaw
4. Tiffany Mitchell
5. The anonymous construction worker
6. James McKnight
7. Phillip Walker

[waggy]

But almost all of those people agree that there was a struggle inside the car, and that a shot went off inside the car. The officer says Brown instigated the struggle. No one to my knowledge has denied that, other than maybe Johnson. Sorry but that's an awful flimsy case against Wilson.

I think there are some people that have confirmation bias.

[NY44]

But almost all of those people agree that there was a struggle inside the car, and that a shot went off inside the car. The officer says Brown instigated the struggle. No one to my knowledge has denied that, other than maybe Johnson. Sorry but that's an awful flimsy case against Wilson.

I think there are some people that have confirmation bias.

They also almost all agree that he had his hands up.

[blobfan]

Your argument insinuates that all law breakers shouldn't be surprised if cops beat them up or shoot them. Everyone involved in this thread acknowledges that Michael Brown broke the law. He would have answered to a judge or jury for that crime. The police, whether dealing with innocent or guilty people, still have to obey the laws and guidelines given to them. The laws of this country are bullshit if we allow cops to do whatever they want simply because a person is most likely or is a criminal. Police aren't normal citizens.
...

Actually, that's not true of all the posts I've read nor of other online discussions about the incident. Many say that it was not Brown in the store video based on pictures of the body on the ground, contending the store assailant was wearing sandals but Brown was wearing hi-tops. Others imply the video was doctored. And MANY say that he should not have been stopped for walking down the middle of the road nor should the officer have continued the confrontation when Brown and his friend refused. It's part of what makes it hard to discuss the incident when you find yourself talking to people that refuse to acknowledge evidence directly in front of them.

[NY44]

And MANY say that he should not have been stopped for walking down the middle of the road

I'm in this group. Go walk down your street and see what happens. Plenty of people jogging in the streets where I live.

[blobfan]

I'm in this group. Go walk down your street and see what happens. Plenty of people jogging in the streets where I live.

Do you have sidewalks? I get occasionally jogging in the street, especially if the sidewalks are bad or clogged with people pushing strollers but there's no excuse for walking down the middle of a street with sidewalks in good weather unless you are just plain stupid.

And if a cop asks you to get out of the road you....
a) move over to the curb like you have two brain cells to rub together or
b) you say "I'm almost home" and keep on walking like the cop and all other vehicles doesn't exist?

Heck, you see any car coming do you just keep on walking/jogging down the middle of the street as if you aren't an obstruction? Cause I think ANYONE coming around the corner seeing you continue on path with vehicle traffic coming your way should get a free pass at tapping you with their bumper to knock your arrogant butt off the street.

Plenty of people jogging along the EDGE of the street, not middle, where I live and they move to the side when traffic comes. That didn't happen in Brown's case, did it? He should have moved his butt off the street when the cop told him and his friend to get out of the way. I'm not saying he deserves the death penalty for not moving but I just can't put any credence to the arguments of people that cannot admit that Brown should have adhered to the cops request. He was walking down the middle of the street; he should have moved to the sidewalk as soon as he saw traffic and not waited to be told. The cop was absolutely right to tell him to get out of the street and to pursue him when he didn't, for public safety. I cannot stomach the people saying the cop should have just moved on after being ignored or that the cop shouldn't have stopped him and only did so because of his skin color. That's pure BS.

All this goes to my previous contention that we can't have a reasonable conversation about this if we cannot agree that cops have the right to confront us when we are breaking rules and laws, no matter how minor.

[NY44]

All this goes to my previous contention that we can't have a reasonable conversation about this if we cannot agree that cops have the right to confront us when we are breaking rules and laws, no matter how minor.

I find that to be ridiculous. Sure they have the right to confront us. It would be nice if people didn't break laws and if officers didn't confront people about petty crimes, but it's an imperfect world and both those things happen. The main angle of people who say the confrontation was unnecessary is that Wilson wouldn't have said anything to him if he wasn't black. None of this really matters though. The confrontation doesn't really matter. Witnesses have corroborated that Brown wasn't an immediate threat to Wilson or anyone else when he was killed. No matter what he did before that fact doesn't matter.

[waggy]

Witnesses have corroborated that Brown wasn't an immediate threat to Wilson or anyone else when he was killed. No matter what he did before that fact doesn't matter.


The witnesses have not been all that accurate as far as I can tell. The guy that was with Brown, his account makes no sense, and he was part of the convenience store robbery, so you can just completely discount whatever he says. The one girl incorrectly said he was shot from behind?? The construction worker has made no statement, but he's somehow gets lumped in with witnesses that have made statements. These are just the easy ones; I haven't bothered really listening to the other statements.

There is no reason for Brown to be going in thru the patrol car window. The conveniece store vid clearly shows what a Total Piece Of Shit Brown was. You're a complete retard if you can figure this out.

Wilson saved society from much future suffering at the hands of that thug.

[blobfan]

I find that to be ridiculous. Sure they have the right to confront us. It would be nice if people didn't break laws and if officers didn't confront people about petty crimes, but it's an imperfect world and both those things happen. The main angle of people who say the confrontation was unnecessary is that Wilson wouldn't have said anything to him if he wasn't black. None of this really matters though. The confrontation doesn't really matter. Witnesses have corroborated that Brown wasn't an immediate threat to Wilson or anyone else when he was killed. No matter what he did before that fact doesn't matter.
Witness reports have sent innocent people to jail repeatedly so I'm not going to give them full credence. What may have looked like hands up from the side could look like a renewed attack to the person that just had his face beat up. We don't know. But it's hard to believe you care about the law when you say an officer should ignore petty crimes committed right in front of him. That's ridiculous. They were in the street, a potential obstruction to anyone driving through, and the cop absolutely should have asked them to move out of the street. Skin color has nothing to do with it. Until you can agree to some basic facts on law and order I cannot pay any credence to what you say because your reasoning is fundamentally flawed.

[SemajParlor]

There is no reason for Brown to be going in thru the patrol car window. The conveniece store vid clearly shows what a Total Piece Of Shit Brown was. You're a complete retard if you can figure this out.

Wilson saved society from much future suffering at the hands of that thug.

convenience*

Also, I believe you meant to write "can't" instead of "can" in the sentence in which you called another person a retard.

[NY44]

Witness reports have sent innocent people to jail repeatedly so I'm not going to give them full credence.

My reasoning is flawed, but this is fine? You just dismissed 7 witness accounts because sometimes witness accounts aren't accurate. Yet, you have excused Wilson of wrong doing because his face might have been beat up, which has not been confirmed by anyone, not even the police. By all means, let's keep talking about jay walking though, since we know that happened.

[waggy]

convenience*

Also, I believe you meant to write "can't" instead of "can" in the sentence in which you called another person a retard.


Thanks!

[SemajParlor]

Need to take this with a grain of salt but interesting... https://storify.com/VeryWhiteGuy/shaunking-exposes-ferguson-pd-lie-about-distance-f

[MHettel]

Need to take this with a grain of salt but interesting... https://storify.com/VeryWhiteGuy/shaunking-exposes-ferguson-pd-lie-about-distance-f

Wow. That guy REALLY has decided what happened, and apparently is hell bent on "proving" it. A regular Kojak.

He even uses the phrase "grassy knoll." How fitting.

Whack Job

[Kahns Krazy]

I don't find that interesting in the least. The SUV didn't kill Brown. I don't care where it was in relation to Brown or the officer. I care about where the officer was in relation to Brown. By all accounts, there was a shot fired in the car. I don't expect a police office to give up a pursuit after 35 feet.

The difference in distance between the two accounts is 65 feet. Less than 3 seconds of running. That is not evidence of a conspiracy or cover up at all to me. Maybe the police meant to say 35 yards instead of feet. Who knows. The guy writing that blog sure doesn't.

That is worthless drivel.

[XU 87]

Sure they have the right to confront us. It would be nice if people didn't break laws and if officers didn't confront people about petty crimes, but it's an imperfect world and both those things happen.

You have very interesting concepts of law and order. So the police should just ignore the criminals who commit the "petty crimes"? Do "petty crimes" include all misdemeanors? How about traffic tickets? Are those off limit too? Apparently Brown should not have been arrested for stealing the cigars since that was just a "petty theft".

New York shopkeepers and store owners beware if you ever become a Chief of Police.

[NY44]

You have very interesting concepts of law and order. So the police should just ignore the criminals who commit the "petty crimes"? Do "petty crimes" include all misdemeanors? How about traffic tickets? Are those off limit too? Apparently Brown should not have been arrested for stealing the cigars since that was just a "petty theft".

New York shopkeepers and store owners beware if you ever become a Chief of Police.

To confront someone is to be hostile. I didn't say let all petty crime go.

[blobfan]

To confront someone is to be hostile. I didn't say let all petty crime go.

Well, hostility isn't a requirement of a confrontation but even so, do you think it inappropriate for a public servant to be someone hostile when meeting a suspected criminal? I think a firm and aggressive confrontation is required.

[NY44]

Well, hostility isn't a requirement of a confrontation but even so, do you think it inappropriate for a public servant to be someone hostile when meeting a suspected criminal? I think a firm and aggressive confrontation is required.

I hate to be that guy, but here's the definition of confront when you search it "meet (someone) face to face with hostile or argumentative intent."

Yes, I would agree, but Wilson didn't know Brown had robbed the convenience store.

[NY44]

I don't find that interesting in the least. The SUV didn't kill Brown. I don't care where it was in relation to Brown or the officer. I care about where the officer was in relation to Brown. By all accounts, there was a shot fired in the car. I don't expect a police office to give up a pursuit after 35 feet.

The difference in distance between the two accounts is 65 feet. Less than 3 seconds of running. That is not evidence of a conspiracy or cover up at all to me. Maybe the police meant to say 35 yards instead of feet. Who knows. The guy writing that blog sure doesn't.

That is worthless drivel.

If he's pursuing him, doesn't that mean that he's running away and not an immediate threat?

[blobfan]

I hate to be that guy, but here's the definition of confront when you search it "meet (someone) face to face with hostile or argumentative intent."

Yes, I would agree, but Wilson didn't know Brown had robbed the convenience store.

The guy that only reads the portion of a definition that meets his needs and doesn't consider that some words have different nuances? Here's the full M-W listing (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/confront).


: to oppose or challenge (someone) especially in a direct and forceful way

: to directly question the action or authority of (someone)

: to deal with (something, such as a problem or danger); especially : to deal with (something) in an honest and direct way

[blobfan]

If he's pursuing him, doesn't that mean that he's running away and not an immediate threat?

Perhaps to the officer but he may still be a threat to the public, which means the office should continue pursuit.

[XU 87]

To confront someone is to be hostile. I didn't say let all petty crime go.

To arrest the person, or give a citation, the cop necessarily has to confront the person. Are you advocating changing to a system where we just have criminals voluntarily turning themselves in on petty crimes? I don't think that will work real well.

[SemajParlor]

Perhaps to the officer but he may still be a threat to the public, which means the office should continue pursuit.

Without a doubt. Does not help the case to use lethal force however.

[NY44]

Perhaps to the officer but he may still be a threat to the public, which means the office should continue pursuit.

Missing shots is also a threat to the public.

[Juice]

To arrest the person, or give a citation, the cop necessarily has to confront the person. Are you advocating changing to a system where we just have criminals voluntarily turning themselves in on petty crimes? I don't think that will work real well.

Well it's sometimes done. A warrant can be signed and the arrest be made at a later time. I'm not saying this situation called for that but not very criminal is apprehended right after.

[vee4xu]

More evidence why police officers are acutely aware of their surroundings:

http://www.cleveland.com/nation/index.ssf/2014/09/pa_trooper_ambush_suspect_eric.html#incart_river

Sad.

[xu82]

More evidence why police officers are acutely aware of their surroundings:

http://www.cleveland.com/nation/index.ssf/2014/09/pa_trooper_ambush_suspect_eric.html#incart_river

Sad.
Sad? Absolutely. Don't forget batshit crazy too.

[SemajParlor]

Cameras need to be a requirement. http://www.wltx.com/story/news/local/2014/09/24/video-released-released-of-trooper-involved-shooting/16187305/

[NY44]

http://deadspin.com/cardinals-fans-get-ugly-in-clash-with-ferguson-proteste-1643282285

I guess this is still a source of conflict in St. Louis even though we don't hear about it anymore.

[X-band '01]

It's not so much a Ferguson thing as it is a Deadspin-hates-the-self-righteous-Cardinals-fans thing.

[Juice]

It's not so much a Ferguson thing as it is a Deadspin-hates-the-self-righteous-Cardinals-fans thing.

1) Everyone hates Cardinals fans
2) When what you're saying is racist, you deserved to get called out.

[Kahns Krazy]

Uh, when the protesters are chanting "who do we want? Darren Wilson! How do we want him? Dead!" you don't have any room to call what anyone else is saying ugly.

The protesters were there to provoke a response. Did they believe that any Cardinals fans waiting to see the game are part of the root problem in Ferguson, or were they there to say provocative things? I don't see how one group supporting one side by saying "Justice for Mike Brown" is any different than another group saying "Lets Go Darren". Keep in mind this is after the first crowd said they wanted Darren dead.

[Juice]

Uh, when the protesters are chanting "who do we want? Darren Wilson! How do we want him? Dead!" you don't have any room to call what anyone else is saying ugly.

The protesters were there to provoke a response. Did they believe that any Cardinals fans waiting to see the game are part of the root problem in Ferguson, or were they there to say provocative things? I don't see how one group supporting one side by saying "Justice for Mike Brown" is any different than another group saying "Lets Go Darren". Keep in mind this is after the first crowd said they wanted Darren dead.

"We're the ones who gave all y'all the freedoms that you have!" - As if black people should have to thank white people for being free.

"That's right! If they'd be working, we wouldn't have this problem!" - Cardinals fan assumes that all black people are unemployed

"USA! USA! USA!" - Because black people are somehow un-American.

"Africa! Africa! Africa!" - Yup, many of their ancestors unwillingly came from Africa. Let's rub that fact in.

[Kahns Krazy]

Agreed that there is nothing pretty about any of those examples, but when there is a group of people jumping up and down screaming that they want a police officer dead, they are going to get some nasty things said back to them. That's life. Ugly things said on both sides there. Nothing productive at all.

[STL_XUfan]

Each side of this debate has their idiots (the looters and the overtly racist) and focusing on the idiots makes for better tv than focusing on substantive policy.

[XU 87]

I wonder why this story has received no national coverage...........

http://www.cincinnati.com/story/news/2014/10/07/one-deters-beating-admits-guilt/16874703/

[Retire33]

I wonder why this story has received no national coverage...........

http://www.cincinnati.com/story/news/2014/10/07/one-deters-beating-admits-guilt/16874703/

Interesting....

[Juice]

I wonder why this story has received no national coverage...........

http://www.cincinnati.com/story/news/2014/10/07/one-deters-beating-admits-guilt/16874703/

They've tried to keep it under the radar considering who the victim is.