Rioting in STL

[XU 87]

I don't think the cop is claiming that the kid was shot, ran away, and then ran back. The cop supposedly claims that there was an altercation, the kid ran away, then turned around, and then rushed back towards the cop.

If that version is true, I'm curious what some think the cop should have done at that point when this 6'4" kid, who has had already fought him and tried to get his gun, was rushing at the cop? Run away?

[xubrew]

I don't think the cop is claiming that the kid was shot, ran away, and then ran back. The cop supposedly claims that there was an altercation, the kid ran away, then turned around, and then rushed back towards the cop.

If that version is true, I'm curious what some think the cop should have done at that point when this 6'4" kid, who has had already fought him and tried to get his gun, was rushing at the cop? Run away?

A taser would have sufficed.

[ammtd34]

A taser would have sufficed.

Do they have them? I honestly don't know.

[XU 87]

Oh a couple of cops standing over a body, for four hours and tape!? Fantastic!

Riveting footage, they really look like they're gathering evidence. That's no investigation. How about an ambulance? Is covering the body up too much to ask? Some detectives?

Great news Snipe. You can buy crime scene tape on Amazon! Go have yourself an investigation, buddy! This is all you need. http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_2/188-0657227-1872840?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=police%20tape

What is your experience investigating murders? What is the standard time for the body to be kept at a murder scene in the middle of the street? the reason I ask is because I find it interesting when people criticize things they know nothing about.

[xubrew]

Do they have them? I honestly don't know.

They carry them where I live, but I don't live in Missouri.

[NY44]

What is your experience investigating murders? What is the standard time for the body to be kept at a murder scene in the middle of the street? the reason I ask is because I find it interesting when people criticize things they know nothing about.

Come on, man. 4 hours? You don't have to know much to know that 4 hours is way too long. Especially in broad day light in the middle of the victim's community. I'm not arguing what standard procedure is, but if you're asking for an uproar following the killing of an unarmed man, leave his body uncovered in the middle of a hot street among his friends and family for multiple hours.

[NY44]

If the Ferguson Police have military grade equipment, they better have tasers.

[94GRAD]

It seems to me that some members on this board blame the teacher for their child acting up in class.

[XU 87]

Come on, man. 4 hours? You don't have to know much to know that 4 hours is way too long. Especially in broad day light in the middle of the victim's community. I'm not arguing what standard procedure is, but if you're asking for an uproar following the killing of an unarmed man, leave his body uncovered in the middle of a hot street among his friends and family for multiple hours.

I've never investigated a murder. I've never been a cop. I don't know what they were doing or why. Hence, I don't criticize or even offer an opinion about what I don't know.

I suspect they don't cover the body because blood, gunpowder, fibers etc may stick to the sheet.

[NY44]

I suspect they don't cover the body because blood, gunpowder, fibers etc may stick to the sheet.

You would think that to get the best evidence investigators would want to get there quickly, no?

[XU 87]

You would think that to get the best evidence investigators would want to get there quickly, no?

Unless you have some experience or expertise in how murder investigations are conducted and how long they take, you don't know what you're talking about. I do know this much- when there is a death on a highway, the highway is often closed for hours while the police investigate.

And it also seems reasonable to me that you don't throw a sheet on top of a dead body when you are investigating a murder; you can contaminate the evidence.

[muskienick]

You would think that to get the best evidence investigators would want to get there quickly, no?

Except if there were the threat of violence taking place in the area, they might have been withheld until it was safer for them to do their thing.

[xubrew]

It's clear that one knows the procedures for a homicide investigation, how they are supposed to handle the primary crime scene, or how long it takes. Yet, everyone seems to have their minds made up about whether or not the cops screwed it up.

[XU 87]

You would think that to get the best evidence investigators would want to get there quickly, no?

Do you have any evidence that that investigators weren't on the scene quickly?

[NY44]

Except if there were the threat of violence taking place in the area, they might have been withheld until it was safer for them to do their thing.

I don't buy that. This wasn't a gun fight with unknown suspects who got away. If the scene was hostile it was because of the shooting itself. This has continued to escalate ever since. Resulting in what we have now see on the news every night. It's not like the scene suddenly became safe and calm.

[PMI]

This thread is so gay.

[PM Thor]

I've been on quite a few scenes where the cops take half a day to do a thorough investigation. Hell, some highway accidents with a fatality can take 5-6 hours easy, and that's almost always a clear cut, simple investigation. Now, when cops have to investigate an officer related shooting with a fatality, you better believe 4 hours is a short amount of time. I am actually surprised that some people are looking at that aspect of this and getting upset about it. Maybe "the community" needed to hear from the officers about what was going on with the investigation, but I've seen it firsthand where the cops won't engage with the bystanders because they don't want to argue about their procedures. When it looks like they are "just standing around", there's a reason for that, most likely waiting for supervisors or forensics or the whatnot. And why no ambulance there? The guy is dead, there is no need for an ambulance. We would show up, say "Injuries not compatible with life" and get back into service.
I'll give you my personal example of bystanders getting angry, because they perceived that we (CFD) weren't doing anything, when in actuality we were. We had a run on a teenage girl who had been shot, so we got her on the cot and in the back of the ambulance. The ambulance stayed there for maybe 5 minutes while three paramedics worked in the back, starting a line, wound control, stuff like that. I stood at the rear with another EMT, talking. Up walks a random group, on guy screaming at us "WHY AREN"T YOU DOING SOMETHING WHY AREN'T YOU LEAVING! YOU CRACKERS DON'T CARE!". I mean, come on. What are we supposed to do in that type of situation?

[Kahns Krazy]

The amount of speculation in this thread has gone completely over the top, even for this board.

Can everyone from Cincinnati agree that if the cops were going to shoot a Mike Brown, that we wish they shot a different one?

/Just Sayin.
//Who Dey.

[DC Muskie]

They called you a cracker? That's pretty funny.

[GoMuskies]

They called you a cracker? That's pretty funny.

Black people are crazy.

[xavierj]

They called you a cracker? That's pretty funny.

I usually get called white devil by the mental case that sits on top of the air conditioner behind our store.

[NY44]

Even Ray Kelly thinks Ferguson police are handling this all wrong saying "Information certainly has the potential for quelling or lessening disturbances. You tell them what you know and tell them what you don't know, rather than dribbling it out."

[paulxu]

What is a "strong arm robbery?"

Is there a "weak" arm robbery?

[Cheesehead]

Strong-arm robbery is a term used to describe a situation where the offender used any degree of force to complete the act. Strong-arm robbery is technically a term used to describe the crime of "Robbery by sudden snatching." This crime's definition is detailed below:

812.131 - Robbery by sudden snatching

"Robbery by sudden snatching" means the taking of money or other property from the victim's person, with intent to permanently or temporarily deprive the victim or the owner of the money or other property, when, in the course of the taking, the victim was or became aware of the taking. In order to satisfy this definition, it is not necessary to show that:

The offender used any amount of force beyond that effort necessary to obtain possession of the money or other property; or

There was any resistance offered by the victim to the offender or that there was injury to the victim's person.

[paulxu]

Alrighty. Weak arm robbery must mean they didn't get the thing.

[waggy]

And this is where you are absolutely wrong. An officer cannot just shoot someone because they're bigger, that's called murder. An officer can only use deadly force if they or someone else is threatened by deadly force from the suspect. Officers also have other tools like a taser than can be used.

I never said just because they are bigger. What a stupid thing to imply. Don't put words in my mouth.

And a taser may or may not be useful against someone with a gun. But I don't expect you'll be able to get your pea brain around that concept.

But we've already had this conversation where you produced these gems.


Right but you cannot shoot someone for trying to take a gun unless you reasonably believe he has a firearm and intends to use it.



I work police officers. If they shot every person who reached for their gun then we would have a lot more dead civilians in Cincinnati/Hamilton County.

http://www.opba.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=348:police-use-of-deadly-force&catid=76:prosecutors-desk&Itemid=110

But sure keep doing you.

[BBC 08]

The only thing I care about is, who will write an updated version of April 29th, 1992 (Miami)? And don't say Sublime with Rome because that is a joke. #waitingformyruca #waitthisisnttwitter

[Juice]

I never said just because they are bigger. What a stupid thing to imply. Don't put words in my mouth.

And a taser may or may not be useful against someone with a gun. But I don't expect you'll be able to get your pea brain around that concept.

But we've already had this conversation where you produced these gems.

Haha Jesus you're an idiot. I work in criminal law. I know infinitely more about when an officer is allowed to use deadly force than you. And there are very few instances. They usually begin and end with the suspect having a firearm. And most officers don't even shoot people when the suspect has a firearm.

Being charged at isn't one of them. "oh no I might get roughed up a bit, I better shoot him."

[waggy]

Haha Jesus you're an idiot. I work in criminal law. I know infinitely more about when an officer is allowed to use deadly force than you. And there are very few instances. They usually begin and end with the suspect having a firearm. And most officers don't even shoot people when the suspect has a firearm.

Being charged at isn't one of them. "oh no I might get roughed up a bit, I better shoot him."

You work? Hahahahaha. Yeah sure.

I'm scared that a layman like me has a better grasp of this than you. YOUR LINK WAS SHIT!!!! Are you able to get your mind around that???

[drudy23]

If the perp previously tried to take your gun, and then bummed rushed you after that, I think it's safe to assume he'd try to take your gun and shoot you again. Not saying that happened, but if it did, I think that gives much more credence to using deadly force in this case.

If none of that transpired before the bum rush, then shooting him likely wasn't the best route ASSUMING he had things like mace, a baton, or a tazer. But again, there are many missing pieces that could swing opinions on if deadly force was justified - you have to get all facts before re-enacting the scene.

[Frambo]

Being charged at isn't one of them. "oh no I might get roughed up a bit, I better shoot him."

why in the world would ANYONE be in law enforcement if this was one of the rules

[waggy]

why in the world would ANYONE be in law enforcement if this was one of the rules


I think Juice cleans the pissers at Hamilton County Courthouse, and to him that constitutes working in criminal law.

[GoMuskies]

Being charged at isn't one of them. "oh no I might get roughed up a bit, I better shoot him."

If a 6'4" guy charges at me with what appears to be bad intent, I think I might have a reasonable apprehension of death or serious bodily harm.

[Juice]

If the perp previously tried to take your gun, and then bummed rushed you after that, I think it's safe to assume he'd try to take your gun and shoot you again. Not saying that happened, but if it did, I think that gives much more credence to using deadly force in this case.

If none of that transpired before the bum rush, then shooting him likely wasn't the best route ASSUMING he had things like mace, a baton, or a tazer. But again, there are many missing pieces that could swing opinions on if deadly force was justified - you have to get all facts before re-enacting the scene.

I'd agree with this but Waggy would have you believe if someone is larger and more powerful that the officer is automatically right in shooting someone.

[Juice]

I think Juice cleans the pissers at Hamilton County Courthouse, and to him that constitutes working in criminal law.

But I get to listen to what the judges say so I'm pretty much an expert now.

[Juice]

why in the world would ANYONE be in law enforcement if this was one of the rules

That was definitely sarcasm.

[waggy]

I'd agree with this but Waggy would have you believe if someone is larger and more powerful that the officer is automatically right in shooting someone.

Please quote where I have said this.

[waggy]

That was definitely sarcasm.

Hahahaha. Yeah sure.

[DC Muskie]

If a 6'4" guy charges at me with what appears to be bad intent, I think I might have a reasonable apprehension of death or serious bodily harm.

Yeah cause if the guy was like 5'7" you would whip his ass!

[drudy23]

Depends - if a guy comes at me, without previous incident - am I going to shoot him? No

If 15 seconds earlier, he punched me in the face and tried to steal my gun, am I going to shoot him? Maybe

Certainly depends on the situation - there's no black and white here. The specifics to the isolated situation MATTER. None of us yet know that specifics that matter, so it's impossible to say at this point. We may never know. However, we're likely not going to get anywhere with the "witness statements" as many people have seen many different things.

[paulxu]

I just hope all the people in Ferguson don't decide to do one of those open carry Texas deals where they are just wandering around with firearms on display.

[GoMuskies]

Yeah cause if the guy was like 5'7" you would whip his ass!

I might be wrong, but I'm definitely going to be less likely to be scared of a smaller guy killing or maiming me.

[bigdiggins]

The autopsy report showed the deadly force likely came on the sixth shot which was to the head. There were four shots that hit the young upstanding college bound citizen in the arm prior to those to the head. If four shots to wound the guy and get him to stop the assault didn't deter him I think it's time to up the anty a bit and use some deadly force.

[waggy]

Excerpts from a report on CNN website:


On Monday and early Tuesday, stun grenades and tear gas canisters arced through the night sky and into crowds of protesters after police said they had been targeted with rocks, Molotov cocktails and gunfire.

Two people were shot -- not by police, authorities said. Four officers were injured. Police arrested at least 75 people for failure to disperse Monday and early Tuesday, St. Louis County jail officials said Tuesday. Two were arrested on weapons charges and another for interfering with an officer.

Police and protesters blamed outside agitators for the gunplay and violence. According to jail records, many of those arrested were local residents. Others came from New York, California, Texas and Alabama.

"What we are dealing with right now are two groups of people," Missouri state Sen. Maria Chappelle-Nadal told CNN on Tuesday. "One, protesters who are peacefully demonstrating, expressing their First Amendment rights. And then we have a smaller group of people who have been infiltrating themselves in the crowds and creating all of this unrest."




Monday evening began peacefully enough.

For almost two hours, police in riot gear formed a barricade and stood watch as hundreds of protesters marched in a single-file line that stretched so long that different parts chanted different slogans.

"Hands up, don't shoot," some repeated. "No justice, no peace," others said. Still others sang church hymns.

But the scene quickly deteriorated after a handful of protesters threw rocks, bottles and Molotov cocktails at police. Officers responded by firing stun grenades and tear gas canisters.

Amid the frenzy, gunshots could be heard. Police found two people shot at the protest site, said Missouri State Highway Patrol Capt. Ron Johnson, who is in charge of protest security.

One group of protesters made a barricade with portable toilets and orange cones. Some ripped out street signs, including a symbolic "Do Not Enter" sign.

Armored vehicles rolled down the streets with officers perched atop, their hands steadied on guns. Other officers darted into the protest crowd to make an occasional arrest before retreating.

Johnson said that a building and an unoccupied house were set on fire, and that his officers came under "heavy gunfire."

"We have been criticized for using SWAT trucks during protests. We did not deploy them into crowds until things deteriorated," he said. "Once again, not a single bullet was fired by officers despite coming under heavy attack."

[SemajParlor]

Brown seems like he must have been a pretty violent fella for someone who didn’t have a weapon on him. One has to think his dream of becoming this cop killing menace and society threatening-cheap cigar thieving- villain would have been easier if he had just had one himself. Maybe he didn’t have enough thug in him to shoot an unarmed person 6 times.

[XU 87]

Brown seems like he must have been a pretty violent fella for someone who didn’t have a weapon on him. One has to think his dream of becoming this cop killing menace and society threatening-cheap cigar thieving- villain would have been easier if he had just had one himself. Maybe he didn’t have enough thug in him to shoot an unarmed person 6 times.

Assuming the cop's version of the facts are true, what should the cop have done?

[PM Thor]

The autopsy report showed the deadly force likely came on the sixth shot which was to the head. There were four shots that hit the young upstanding college bound citizen in the arm prior to those to the head. If four shots to wound the guy and get him to stop the assault didn't deter him I think it's time to up the anty a bit and use some deadly force.

I always thought that you should shoot until the threat is gone. Now, with that being said, "IF" a big 6'4 guy is rushing me, I am pretty sure I'm going to empty my clip just in sheer panic.

[Frambo]

Brown seems like he must have been a pretty violent fella for someone who didn’t have a weapon on him. One has to think his dream of becoming this cop killing menace and society threatening-cheap cigar thieving- villain would have been easier if he had just had one himself. Maybe he didn’t have enough thug in him to shoot an unarmed person 6 times.

Watching the robbery video I wonder if that was the first time he bullied someone? He seemed pretty sure of himself with the clerk. It will be interesting if the many witnesses that say he was rushing the cop are proven to be credible. If so, you (and all others) need to lose the gentle giant / unarmed nice guy scenario. If he fought the cop through the window, tried to get his gun and came rushing back at the cop.....the cop should not be indicted or should be found not guilty if he is.

[drudy23]

Watching the robbery video I wonder if that was the first time he bullied someone?.

We all know the answer to that.

[Kahns Krazy]

If he fought the cop through the window, tried to get his gun and came rushing back at the cop.....the cop should not be indicted or should be found not guilty if he is.

I'm not so sure how definite that is either. If he has a taser in the other holster, and that would have been proper procedure, then unloading a clip into someone because you're scared may still rise to a criminal offense.

The officer is held to a higher standard. If Brown charges me in my yard, pretty sure I can unload on him. Cop in the road is there to protect first.

I wonder how much of this is because Wilson is a lousy/unlucky shot. If the first and only shot goes through the eye and drops him, it's a different story. Shooting someone 6 times is a lot, and regardless of how it happened, I'm pretty sure if I'm Brown's friend and a cop shoots 6 times, my first reaction is that is a lot of shooting. Probably because it would be 6 bullets more than I have ever seen fired in the street, but every time I hear 6 shots I think that sounds like a lot.

[PM Thor]

Outside of the death of M.Brown, I still do have a major issue with the Ferguson police and the response they had to the event originally. They totally overreacted, then the Governor effed it up by basically blaming the cops for escalating the situation, and then replaced the police in charge with another entity with a different set of tactics, which in turn allowed looters to take advantage of their tactics. All in all, the protestors had a right to protest, then the police messed that up, compounded by the looters making it worse, and now adventurists are shipping in from all over to be part of this whole travesty. It's become a whole mockery of itself now.

[Boro Muskie]

In the interest of full disclosure etc.... there is this.

http://thelead.blogs.cnn.com/2014/08/18/officers-version-of-ferguson-shooting-revealed/
http://thelead.blogs.cnn.com/2014/08/18/officers-version-of-ferguson-shooting-revealed/

[PM Thor]

Honestly, I don't give ANY credence to someone who calls into a radio show to put forth a version of an event. I also don't usually give much credence to eye witness accounts to an event either, unless the event is caught on tape. People ALWAYS have an agenda. But with that being said, I keep reading that there are 12 eyewitnesses who corroborate the officers "supposed" version of events, whereas there are only 2 who say the guy had his hands up when he was shot. Just statistically it favors the cops version. (this is especially true if one of the eyewitness accounts was involved in the strong arm robbery)

[waggy]

In the interest of full disclosure etc.... there is this.

http://thelead.blogs.cnn.com/2014/08/18/officers-version-of-ferguson-shooting-revealed/
http://thelead.blogs.cnn.com/2014/08/18/officers-version-of-ferguson-shooting-revealed/



CNN has methodically and deliberately vetted this woman's account, and offer it because it squares with officer Wilson's account, whose side of the story really has yet to be told.

You can't make this shit up. Unreal.

[XU 87]

I'm not so sure how definite that is either. If he has a taser in the other holster, and that would have been proper procedure, then unloading a clip into someone because you're scared may still rise to a criminal offense.



A few thoughts on the taser, assuming he had one. One- he supposedly had his gun out when Brown turned around and rushed at him. He may not have had enough time to put his gun in his holster and then get and fire his taser. 2) with Brown being so big, and so crazy, and so close, he was concerned the taser wouldn't stop the guy (a cop told me the second scenario).

Bottom line- the cop probably had 1 or 2 seconds to react.

P.S. the cop suffered a broken eye socket. I assume that happened because Brown punched him in the face.

[Frambo]

I'm not so sure how definite that is either. If he has a taser in the other holster, and that would have been proper procedure, then unloading a clip into someone because you're scared may still rise to a criminal offense.

The officer is held to a higher standard. If Brown charges me in my yard, pretty sure I can unload on him. Cop in the road is there to protect first.

I wonder how much of this is because Wilson is a lousy/unlucky shot. If the first and only shot goes through the eye and drops him, it's a different story. Shooting someone 6 times is a lot, and regardless of how it happened, I'm pretty sure if I'm Brown's friend and a cop shoots 6 times, my first reaction is that is a lot of shooting. Probably because it would be 6 bullets more than I have ever seen fired in the street, but every time I hear 6 shots I think that sounds like a lot.

from the new scenarios coming out...it looks like the 1st 4 shots didn't stop/faze him and he might have kept coming. The taser might have worked, but it sounds like it went down too fast.

[drudy23]

So apparently another black man was killed by police today in St Louis...should be another interesting night for CNN.

[MHettel]

I cannot belive the taser argument. When you resort to that, aren't you basically admitting that the guy was aggressively approaching the cop?

the fact that he didnt use teh taser tells you everythign you need to know. The Cop shot this kid becasue it became necessary to save his own life.

I didnt hear any stories about Michael Brown trying to grab the cops taser, or that the taser was fired in the police vehicle.

Game over on this debate.

[blobfan]

A reporter is reporting that 12 people confirm the cop's story that this kid rushed him.
I'm not seeing this reported by any of what you might call credible news outlets or sources of record.

The amount of speculation in this thread has gone completely over the top, even for this board.

Can everyone from Cincinnati agree that if the cops were going to shoot a Mike Brown, that we wish they shot a different one?

/Just Sayin.
//Who Dey.
I'm with you on this one!!!

Watching the robbery video I wonder if that was the first time he bullied someone? He seemed pretty sure of himself with the clerk. It will be interesting if the many witnesses that say he was rushing the cop are proven to be credible. If so, you (and all others) need to lose the gentle giant / unarmed nice guy scenario. If he fought the cop through the window, tried to get his gun and came rushing back at the cop.....the cop should not be indicted or should be found not guilty if he is.
Seems irrelevant to me. The video is important because it suggests Browns state of mind prior to the incident. If he was in a combative/aggressive state of mind, it gives more credibility to the assertion that he fought with the officer and charged him.

[STL_XUfan]

I'm not seeing this reported by any of what you might call credible news outlets or sources of record.



Here is the source and back story of the "12 collaborating witnesses" statement: http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/columns/editors-desk/reporter-clarifies-controversial-twitter-post/article_650de303-dffa-5395-b616-649afadd96cb.html

[NY44]

I cannot belive the taser argument. When you resort to that, aren't you basically admitting that the guy was aggressively approaching the cop?

the fact that he didnt use teh taser tells you everythign you need to know. The Cop shot this kid becasue it became necessary to save his own life.

I didnt hear any stories about Michael Brown trying to grab the cops taser, or that the taser was fired in the police vehicle.

Game over on this debate.

You have literally missed the entire point. So let me get this straight, we know it was necessary for the cop to use the gun because he did? Incredible. Stop the discussion, everyone. Game over.

[xavierj]

Two more young men killed each other in Avondale today. Residents said they want more police presence and wonder why the police don't come around the area. I think we know why. Place is aware zone. If they have more police controlling things it could get ugly if you know what I mean. I don't think the police want the hassle.

[LA Muskie]

What is your experience investigating murders? What is the standard time for the body to be kept at a murder scene in the middle of the street? the reason I ask is because I find it interesting when people criticize things they know nothing about.

Actually some questions just aren't. It's not up for debate. The Police Chief himself said he was embarrassed and uncomfortable with how long the body remained on the road. That tells you it wasn't "standard."

[SemajParlor]

Actually some questions just aren't. It's not up for debate. The Police Chief himself said he was embarrassed and uncomfortable with how long the body remained on the road. That tells you it wasn't "standard."

Numerous police officials - former and current - publicly denounced the handling of the crime scene. I giggled to myself when I saw posts about crime scene procedure that were obviously made up to defend the police. Ignorant posts are my favorite.

[SemajParlor]

I cannot belive the taser argument. When you resort to that, aren't you basically admitting that the guy was aggressively approaching the cop?

the fact that he didnt use teh taser tells you everythign you need to know. The Cop shot this kid becasue it became necessary to save his own life.

I didnt hear any stories about Michael Brown trying to grab the cops taser, or that the taser was fired in the police vehicle.

Game over on this debate.

Close the thread. Stop the Grand Jury hearing scheduled for tomorrow. Call off the Attorney General's promise of a fair investigation from the Justice Department. MHettel solved the crime and debate with no evidence whatsoever. A true modern marvel.

[Snipe]

Haha Jesus you're an idiot. I work in criminal law. I know infinitely more about when an officer is allowed to use deadly force than you. And there are very few instances. They usually begin and end with the suspect having a firearm. And most officers don't even shoot people when the suspect has a firearm.

Being charged at isn't one of them. "oh no I might get roughed up a bit, I better shoot him."

Wow.

If a 6-4 300 pound black man charged me I would run away. That cop isn't allowed to run away. If he isn't allowed to shoot him, and he isn't allowed to run away, do we just let him be pulverized? They are saying that asshat dislocated his orbital socket. If his story is true I would have shot him.

I would have shot St. Trayvon too. Turns out in court that they had eyewitnesses, testimony and medical evidence that showed that St. Trayvon was bashing Zimmermans head open against the concrete. Zimmerman was found not guilty and wasn't even indicted by a grand jury. Still to this day the NYTimes has a webpage to the affair and you can see a photo of Zimmerman and a photo of an 11 year old Trayvon Martin. Really? An 11 year old? You can check it today.

Trayvon won in the court of public opinion. They still bring his mother in, who trademarked his name to grab some cash. I think she has made over a million for raising a feral and violent youth. It is a great career choice, and she still gets quoted.

The Duke Rape case doesn't resonate today. It was discredited and long forgotten. They learned from that apparently, because 11 year old St. Trayvon is still a political winner. They pushed so hard on that case. It was an election year. They had the chief of Police removed. They brought in a special prosecutor when the local authorities wouldn't press. That prosecutor ignored and worked to disqualify evidence from Martin's cell phone. ABC and CBS complied by editing the 911 call to make Zimmerman look bad or reimaging photos to diminish his physical injuries to the back of his skull. This is a full on effort by our elites during an election year. And it mobilized black voters! Gold at the end of the rainbow.

This is an election year too, and now we have another incident where all right thinking people need to get on board to gin up the hate. People have called for the police chief to step down, ala Stanford FLA. The Democrat Gov is calling for the cop to face trial, to hell with the Grand Jury. This guy is toast, he is finished.

St Trayvon was a punk that broke open a guys skull and went for the guys gun. He ended up dead. Mike Brown is an asshole. I base that on the video of his strong arm robbery right before he punched an cop and went for his gun. Now he is dead, and we are probably better off that way.

We have a racial political system now, things have changed. It won't always be this way, because it is going to get worse. Expect racial politics to come to the fore front in every election from here on out. Things will never go back to being the same. Our country is changing, and radicalized politics is here and now and forever in our future.

And if this one working class policeman with a dislocated eye socket has to pay the price for elite whites, that is an easy price for them to pay. Throw him to the lions. He can easily be replaced anyway, and we need more black policemen in Ferguson anyway.

[Snipe]

And it still amazes me that people are pissed that police released the video showing what an asshole he was, right before the shooting. That speaks to character and state of mind. That happened right before he assaulted the cop. it wasn't something he did 10 years ago or even 5 months ago. It happened right before the incident, and we all got to see it.

The Feds even stated that they didn't approve of the release. The admitted they had the video, and they also said that they NEVER INTENDED TO RELEASE IT.

And the Cathedral Media complied. They all agreed that showing this guy as the actual violent thug he is was a monumental bad move for the Ferguson Police, and for America. How dare we have transparency and truth when THE NARRATIVE is at stake! This isn't about that dead black asshat, this is about which side you are on, and all right thinking people know which side that is.

And the Gov tonight just did everything he could to put away that cop. Sacrificing that peace officer is the Greater Good.

We have always been at war with Oceania.

[NY44]

Snipe, in your examination of this and the Trayvon Martin case, you've conveniently skipped how the altercations started. Trayvon was being trailed because he was black and in a hoodie. If that had not happened, Zimmerman would be fine and so would Trayvon. We don't have that level of knowledge with Brown yet, but it's highly doubtful that he just reached into the car of a police officer driving by. He's far from completely innocent, but we really just don't know.

[Snipe]

I'm not so sure how definite that is either. If he has a taser in the other holster, and that would have been proper procedure, then unloading a clip into someone because you're scared may still rise to a criminal offense.

The officer is held to a higher standard. If Brown charges me in my yard, pretty sure I can unload on him. Cop in the road is there to protect first.

I wonder how much of this is because Wilson is a lousy/unlucky shot. If the first and only shot goes through the eye and drops him, it's a different story. Shooting someone 6 times is a lot, and regardless of how it happened, I'm pretty sure if I'm Brown's friend and a cop shoots 6 times, my first reaction is that is a lot of shooting. Probably because it would be 6 bullets more than I have ever seen fired in the street, but every time I hear 6 shots I think that sounds like a lot.

Great point about being a lousy shot. Had he fired once it would be a different narrative. But then again, maybe his aim was off because


Officer Darren Wilson Suffered “Orbital Blowout Fracture to Eye Socket”

That might have effected his aim, most significantly his depth perception.


A looper, you know, a caddy, a looper, a jock. So, I tell them I'm a pro jock, and who do you think they give me? The Dalai Lama, himself. Twelfth son of the Lama. The flowing robes, the grace, bald... striking. So, I'm on the first tee with him. I give him the driver. He hauls off and whacks one - big hitter, the Lama - long, into a ten-thousand foot crevasse, right at the base of this glacier. Do you know what the Lama says? Gunga galunga... gunga, gunga-lagunga. So we finish the eighteenth and he's gonna stiff me. And I say, "Hey, Lama, hey, how about a little something, you know, for the effort, you know." And he says, "Oh, uh, there won't be any money, but when you die, on your deathbed, you will receive total consciousness." So I got that goin' for me, which is nice.

[waggy]

Snipe, in your examination of this and the Trayvon Martin case, you've conveniently skipped how the altercations started. Trayvon was being trailed because he was black and in a hoodie. If that had not happened, Zimmerman would be fine and so would Trayvon. We don't have that level of knowledge with Brown yet, but it's highly doubtful that he just reached into the car of a police officer driving by. He's far from completely innocent, but we really just don't know.


You just can't wrap your mind around that piece of shit Brown going off on that cop? If it was up to me that POS would still be laying in the street.

And btw, Trayvon was a POS too.

[NY44]

No idea who is right or is wrong in this confrontation, but I don't think it justifies more innocent people and businesses being harmed.

Look how far you've fallen since this first and reasonable post in this thread. It's a real shame.

[waggy]

Look how far you've fallen since this first and reasonable post in this thread. It's a real shame.


The whole lefty narrative is garbage. The stampede to ruin that cop because he shot a black thug. Blatant from the beginning. The politics are clear as day but you just can't get your mind around it. Whatever. And I really don't give a shit if your IQ is too low to figure it out, or if your prejudices are too deep-seated to allow you to, or if it's just straight political narrative. It does not matter. You wring your hands, and you just don't know... It's just too much. You need more information. Well you keep on trying to figure it out. And all I was trying to do is help you.. Ie, Brown and Martin were thugs who got what they deserved.

[cheeba]

Quick point I haven't really heard discussed:

While it may be true the police officer who shot Brown did not know that Brown had just participated in a strong arm robbery, Brown knew he had just participated in a strong arm robbery when the officer approached him. Brown probably thought the officer knew he was involved in the robbery and as a result entered the situation with that in mind, thinking he was going to be facing time for the robbery. Why this narrative is not being discussed, I have no idea.

Regardless, shooting Brown was not the appropriate course of action in my opinion. At some point, our society needs to have a serious discussion about the youth of our country. In general, a majority do not value life or fear authority. When I was young, both my grandparents and parents instilled in me the idea of if police were ever questioning me, pulling me over, following me, etc to stop doing what I was doing, do not run and answer any and all questions the police ask truthfully. Today's youth is not taught this.

[STL_XUfan]

When I was young, both my grandparents and parents instilled in me the idea of if police were ever questioning me, pulling me over, following me, etc to stop doing what I was doing, do not run and answer any and all questions the police ask truthfully. Today's youth is not taught this.

"any lawyer worth his salt will tell the suspect in no uncertain terms to make no statement to police under any circumstances." -Justice Robert Jackson 1949

[SemajParlor]

Can't wait for the season to start.

[SemajParlor]

You just can't wrap your mind around that piece of shit Brown going off on that cop? If it was up to me that POS would still be laying in the street.

And btw, Trayvon was a POS too.

Fantastic argument. Pertinent to the case.

Getting a little emotional are we? NRA meeting fired you up?

[SemajParlor]

"any lawyer worth his salt will tell the suspect in no uncertain terms to make no statement to police under any circumstances." -Justice Robert Jackson 1949

Hey, young black males should listen to the advice of old white parents and grandparents in regards to speaking with police. You should know this.

[paulxu]

I'm walking through my neighborhood, on my way to my relatives house, unarmed.
I'm followed and braced by a failed cop wannabee playtime vigilante, who is armed.
I end up dead. It's my fault. I'm a POS.

(What I should have been doing is probably carrying an open firearm over my shoulder, and "stood my ground." That might have helped.)

[Xville]

I'm walking through my neighborhood, on my way to my relatives house, unarmed.
I'm followed and braced by a failed cop wannabee playtime vigilante, who is armed.
I end up dead. It's my fault. I'm a POS.

(What I should have been doing is probably carrying an open firearm over my shoulder, and "stood my ground." That might have helped.)

you forgot some parts...

I robbed a convenience store because i had to get some swisher sweets to put my weed in
I assaulted the store owner because I deserved those swisher sweets for free
I then walked down the middle of the street to my grandmas house
When the cop told me to get out of the street, I didn't listen because why should i listen to authority? I'm 6'4 and 300 lbs fuck them
i walked up to the cop car and things got physical
somehow the cop got a broken orbital bone...he must have fallen down the stairs

[casualfan]

you forgot some parts...

I robbed a convenience store because i had to get some swisher sweets to put my weed in
I assaulted the store owner because I deserved those swisher sweets for free
I then walked down the middle of the street to my grandmas house
When the cop told me to get out of the street, I didn't listen because why should i listen to authority? I'm 6'4 and 300 lbs fuck them
i walked up to the cop car and things got physical
somehow the cop got a broken orbital bone...he must have fallen down the stairs

He's talking about a different incident. Try and keep up...

This thread has predictably turned in a "hey look at how snarky and edgy my comments are" dick measuring contest. Some of you need to get a grip.

[blobfan]

Xville, Paul is talking about Trayvon. Your post seems to be about Brown.

Here is the source and back story of the "12 collaborating witnesses" statement: http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/columns/editors-desk/reporter-clarifies-controversial-twitter-post/article_650de303-dffa-5395-b616-649afadd96cb.html
The article was based on a tweet from someone on leave, not a credible source.

Byers has been on FMLA leave since March. She is not involved in the Ferguson coverage while she is on leave.

The St. Louis Post-Dispatch did not report the information included in Byers' tweet, either in print or online on STLtoday.com.

[Xville]

He's talking about a different incident. Try and keep up...

This thread has predictably turned in a "hey look at how snarky and edgy my comments are" dick measuring contest. Some of you need to get a grip.

My mistake Paul!

[drudy23]

At some point, our society needs to have a serious discussion about the youth of our country. .

What good is a discussion? We've been discussing this for years.

How about some real action for once.

[Muskie]

Deadspin is now compiling a database of all police related shootings in the Country (link (http://regressing.deadspin.com/were-compiling-every-police-involved-shooting-in-americ-1624180387?utm_source=recirculation&utm_medium=recirculation&utm_campaign=wednesdayAM)).

[GoMuskies]

Hey, young black males should listen to the advice of old white parents and grandparents in regards to speaking with police. You should know this.

Fair enough. However, do you think young black males would be worse off for taking that advice?

[Frambo]

Hey, young black males should listen to the advice of old white parents and grandparents in regards to speaking with police. You should know this.

try this then....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QR465HoCWFQ&feature=share

[NY44]

Remember the 2012 Aurora shooting? Where the shooter was wearing tactical gear, throwing tear gas bombs and killed 12 while injuring 70 with a rifle, a shotgun and a handgun? He was taken alive. I think people have a right to be upset that a man walking down the street wasn't taken alive too.

[drudy23]

Remember the 2012 Aurora shooting? Where the shooter was wearing tactical gear, throwing tear gas bombs and killed 12 while injuring 70 with a rifle, a shotgun and a handgun? He was taken alive. I think people have a right to be upset that a black man walking down the street wasn't taken alive too.

And remember when that young White man in Wisconsin was shot in the head by police while he was hancuffed? What exactly is your point?

Do we need to ratchet up the White guy police shootings to get even?

[GoMuskies]

Remember the 2012 Aurora shooting? Where the shooter was wearing tactical gear, throwing tear gas bombs and killed 12 while injuring 70 with a rifle, a shotgun and a handgun? He was taken alive. I think people have a right to be upset that a black man walking down the street wasn't taken alive too.

I can't believe the Aurora police didn't do as good a job in Ferguson.

[Frambo]

Remember the 2012 Aurora shooting? Where the shooter was wearing tactical gear, throwing tear gas bombs and killed 12 while injuring 70 with a rifle, a shotgun and a handgun? He was taken alive. I think people have a right to be upset that a black man walking down the street wasn't taken alive too.

If it comes out that Brown was shot while running away or surrendering....we should all be upset with the actions of that individual officer.

If it comes out that Brown was shot while bum-rushing that officer with intent to injure/kill that officer....we should all be accepting that Brown was in the wrong and the officer was defending himself.

Lets allow the investigation to proceed and show us what is proven

Either way - the rioters, looters and race-baiters are totally in the wrong and should be demonized.

[blobfan]

Deadspin is now compiling a database of all police related shootings in the Country (link (http://regressing.deadspin.com/were-compiling-every-police-involved-shooting-in-americ-1624180387?utm_source=recirculation&utm_medium=recirculation&utm_campaign=wednesdayAM)).
Well this will be interesting. Apparently the response has been so high they crashed the doc.

[NY44]

And remember when that young White man in Wisconsin was shot in the head by police while he was hancuffed? What exactly is your point?

Do we need to ratchet up the White guy police shootings to get even?

My point doesn't have to do with race. My point is that a mass murderer was put in handcuffs and a jaywalker was shot in the head.

[XU 87]

Remember the 2012 Aurora shooting? Where the shooter was wearing tactical gear, throwing tear gas bombs and killed 12 while injuring 70 with a rifle, a shotgun and a handgun? He was taken alive. I think people have a right to be upset that a black man walking down the street wasn't taken alive too.

If the Ferguson cop was black, would the Justice Dept, or the national media or the people in Ferguson even care about this shooting? Why is it when a white cop kills a black man we have to infer that white cop was a racist who killed the black guy in cold blood?

[NY44]

If the Ferguson cop was black, would the Justice Dept, or the national media or the people in Ferguson even care about this shooting?

Yes. 'Unarmed' is the issue here.

[casualfan]

My point doesn't have to do with race. My point is that a mass murderer was put in handcuffs and a jaywalker was shot in the head.

Here's your original quote:


Remember the 2012 Aurora shooting? Where the shooter was wearing tactical gear, throwing tear gas bombs and killed 12 while injuring 70 with a rifle, a shotgun and a handgun? He was taken alive. I think people have a right to be upset that a black man walking down the street wasn't taken alive too.

If your point doesn't have to do with race why bring up the fact Brown was black? If it's about him being unarmed, as you claim, why didn't you say "I think people have a right to be upset that an unarmed man walking down the street wasn't taken alive too"

[XU 87]

Yes. 'Unarmed' is the issue here.

No it's not. The "issue" is that a white cop shot and killed a black man. If the Ferguson cop was black, no one would care.

[NY44]

Here's your original quote:

If your point doesn't have to do with race why bring up the fact Brown was black? If it's about him being unarmed, as you claim, why didn't you say "I think people have a right to be upset that an unarmed man walking down the street wasn't taken alive too"

Didn't mean to imply that, so I went back and fixed it.

[NY44]

No it's not. The "issue" is that a white cop shot and killed a black man. If the Ferguson cop was black, no one would care.

Ok.

[xubrew]

If it comes out that Brown was shot while running away or surrendering....we should all be upset with the actions of that individual officer.

If it comes out that Brown was shot while bum-rushing that officer with intent to injure/kill that officer....we should all be accepting that Brown was in the wrong and the officer was defending himself.

Lets allow the investigation to proceed and show us what is proven

Either way - the rioters, looters and race-baiters are totally in the wrong and should be demonized.

I wasn't there, but I do believe Brown was in the wrong. To me, that isn't the issue, though. People are acting as if deadly force is the one and only kind of submissive force. That simply is not true. A taser would have sufficed. If the cop didn't have one, then he should have if for no other reason that it is a type of submissive force that is not deadly.


If the Ferguson cop was black, would the Justice Dept, or the national media or the people in Ferguson even care about this shooting? Why is it when a white cop kills a black man we have to infer that white cop was a racist who killed the black guy in cold blood?



No it's not. The "issue" is that a white cop shot and killed a black man. If the Ferguson cop was black, no one would care.

People keep saying this, and I do not believe it to be true at all. I lived in Over the Rhine for a year, and worked at the Drop Inn Center. I actually knew the kid that got shot, which provoked the riots. He lived across the street one block down. Now, I'm not saying that makes me an expert on anything, but I am saying that it does give me a perspective that comes from first hand experience. The minorities in OTR hated black cops more than they hated white cops. A lot more. A WHOLE lot more. For lack of a better way of phrasing it, they pretty much viewed it as some sort of betrayal. To assume the people of Ferguson would not be angry if the cop were black is so far off base that I don't even know where to begin.

Now, to be fair, I think it would have played out much differently in the media, and perhaps people outside of Ferguson wouldn't have even stopped to take notice, but to say they wouldn't have cared if the cop had been black is just flat out incorrect.

[XU 87]

"No one would care" is probably too strong a statement. I meant that if this was a black cop who killed Brown, we wouldn't have this intense national media coverage, we wouldn't have rioting, we wouldn't have have Sharpton et. al. going to Ferguson, we wouldn't have a justice dept investigation, and we wouldn't have this thread.

[waggy]

So black people viewed black cops as traitors. I think that speaks volumes. And it doesn't mean they love white people.

I know a white black guy. Born white into a black family. Looks like an Indian. He'll tell you "Black people are the most racist of all by far". You have to be able to run really fast if you're that guy.

You can buy a Trayvon Martin t-shirt. .."You can forget about 9-11, but don't you ever forget that Trayvon Martin was killed by a white racist..."

Snipe is right, they worked Zimmerman over so hard trying to make him a racist.

Don't stand your ground. If you get beat up or thugged up, tough shit; and if you shoot 'em you're a racist. Personally, I'm undeterred. You fuck with me, you eat lead.

[bleedXblue]

I wasn't there, but I do believe Brown was in the wrong. To me, that isn't the issue, though. People are acting as if deadly force is the one and only kind of submissive force. That simply is not true. A taser would have sufficed. If the cop didn't have one, then he should have if for no other reason that it is a type of submissive force that is not deadly.






People keep saying this, and I do not believe it to be true at all. I lived in Over the Rhine for a year, and worked at the Drop Inn Center. I actually knew the kid that got shot, which provoked the riots. He lived across the street one block down. Now, I'm not saying that makes me an expert on anything, but I am saying that it does give me a perspective that comes from first hand experience. The minorities in OTR hated black cops more than they hated white cops. A lot more. A WHOLE lot more. For lack of a better way of phrasing it, they pretty much viewed it as some sort of betrayal. To assume the people of Ferguson would not be angry if the cop were black is so far off base that I don't even know where to begin.

Now, to be fair, I think it would have played out much differently in the media, and perhaps people outside of Ferguson wouldn't have even stopped to take notice, but to say they wouldn't have cared if the cop had been black is just flat out incorrect.

you're saying this isn't about race?

Wow I've seen some pretty crazy stuff on this board...

[bleedXblue]

If it comes out that Brown was shot while running away or surrendering....we should all be upset with the actions of that individual officer.

If it comes out that Brown was shot while bum-rushing that officer with intent to injure/kill that officer....we should all be accepting that Brown was in the wrong and the officer was defending himself.

Lets allow the investigation to proceed and show us what is proven

Either way - the rioters, looters and race-baiters are totally in the wrong and should be demonized.

This is exactly where I am with this. The challenge is that you have some witnesses saying he didn't rush the cop and some say he did. Good luck with that one. The Taser theory doesn't really hold water with me. The cop isn't a robot. He likely had 1-2 seconds to make a decision. Maybe the gun was already drawn as a result of the physical struggle? The only thing I can really think of is, if he was rushed at after the physical confrontation and he felt his life was in danger would be to shoot this kid in the leg a few times to try and stop him first. It looks as though he was firing to kill based on autopsy report. I would like to think I would have shot to slow him down first and if that wasn't successful, a more direct hit would be warranted.......

[MHettel]

If it comes out that Brown was shot while running away or surrendering....we should all be upset with the actions of that individual officer.

If it comes out that Brown was shot while bum-rushing that officer with intent to injure/kill that officer....we should all be accepting that Brown was in the wrong and the officer was defending himself.

Lets allow the investigation to proceed and show us what is proven

Either way - the rioters, looters and race-baiters are totally in the wrong and should be demonized.

Level headed discussion points ARE NOT to be made here. This is about rushing to judgement in an attempt to fan the flames of racism.

Moderator, please delete this post immediately.

[MHettel]

I wasn't there, but I do believe Brown was in the wrong. To me, that isn't the issue, though. People are acting as if deadly force is the one and only kind of submissive force. That simply is not true. A taser would have sufficed. If the cop didn't have one, then he should have if for no other reason that it is a type of submissive force that is not deadly.

Brew- Just drop the taser argument. Really. It's nonsense. What you mean to say is a taser MIGHT have worked. If he hit the guy with the one and only shot you get with a taser. And, if the taser brings the giant man down.

And if that taser MIGHT work, it also means that the taser MIGHT NOT work. In which case the rushing bull takes the police officers gun and blows his brains out in the middle of the road in Ferguson which gets buried on the back page of a newspaper for a day or two and we'd be left having to discuss basketball here.

Tasers are great when you have a couple cops on the scene and need to bring down a suspect instead of getting fisticuffs. It's a good way to minimize the risk of injury to the cops, and a good way to minimize the chances that a scuffle escalates to the point where a firearm is used. But, in the case where there is only one officer, facing a suspect that he reasonably believes presents imminent life threatening danger (and example would be if a police officer is faced with a suspect that JUST TRIED TO GRAB HIS GUN), then the cop has justifiable cause to use deadly force.

[DC Muskie]

And remember when that young White man in Wisconsin was shot in the head by police while he was hancuffed?

You know what was interesting about this case, when the father of the victim investigated officer related shootings in Wisconsin he found that in 129 years of policing in the state, there was not one incident where a shooting was ruled unjustified.

Thankfully, they managed to change the law that requires an outside investigation when it comes to incidents where a police officer shoots and kills someone.

[Kahns Krazy]

Remember the 2012 Aurora shooting? Where the shooter was wearing tactical gear, throwing tear gas bombs and killed 12 while injuring 70 with a rifle, a shotgun and a handgun? He was taken alive. I think people have a right to be upset that a man walking down the street wasn't taken alive too.

You overlooked the key difference which is that Holmes offered zero resistance to the arresting officer. Do you understand how fundamentally important that is? You also conveniently describe Brown as "walking down the street", but we all know that is not what he did to get shot. I'm unclear how the officer's face got broken as a result of Brown walking down the street.

[MHettel]

Regardless, shooting Brown was not the appropriate course of action in my opinion. .

Alright Cheeba. Please grace us with what WAS the proper course of action.

There are so many things we dont know. But in the end, it's staring to look like it's going to come down to what Michael Browns last actions were. If he had essentially given up and become passive, then yup, I agree with you that the cop should NOT have shot him. If those are the circumstances, then the cop should, and probably will, be convicted of some crime (manslaughter, 2nd degree murder?) and justice will have been served.

But what if Michael Browns last action was somethign different? What if he rushed the cop from a distance of 30 feet, as the cop supposedly said happened (and possibly confirmed by witnesses)? If shooting Michael Brown under THESE circumstances was not right action to take, then I'm unbeleivably interested in learning what the RIGHT action would have been. Honestly, if a cop cant use his weapon to defend himself from a giant man (who just tried to take his gun) rushing towards him, then we should just take guns away from cops alltogether. Heck we shouldn't even have cops.

Hell, the thugs in Ferguson committ crimes in broad daylight already. And they loot and rob themselves. And they burn down their own community. Just dissolve the police force and let them drive themselves to extinction.

[DC Muskie]

You overlooked the key difference which is that Holmes offered zero resistance to the arresting officer. Do you understand how fundamentally important that is? You also conveniently describe Brown as "walking down the street", but we all know that is not what he did to get shot. I'm unclear how the officer's face got broken as a result of Brown walking down the street.

I'm curious as to why the police didn't send out this information about the cops eye being broken. The Chief himself said Brown and the other kid were walking down the street. I would think they would want to get it out there that the cop had his eye busted open.

[xubrew]

you're saying this isn't about race?

Wow I've seen some pretty crazy stuff on this board...

I don't know how to state it any more simply.

I'm saying the people in Over the Rhine didn't like black cops. Because of that, I think it is wrong to think the people in Ferguson wouldn't be pissed off if the cop were black instead of white.

[xubrew]

Brew- Just drop the taser argument. Really. It's nonsense. What you mean to say is a taser MIGHT have worked. If he hit the guy with the one and only shot you get with a taser. And, if the taser brings the giant man down.

And if that taser MIGHT work, it also means that the taser MIGHT NOT work. In which case the rushing bull takes the police officers gun and blows his brains out in the middle of the road in Ferguson which gets buried on the back page of a newspaper for a day or two and we'd be left having to discuss basketball here.

Tasers are great when you have a couple cops on the scene and need to bring down a suspect instead of getting fisticuffs. It's a good way to minimize the risk of injury to the cops, and a good way to minimize the chances that a scuffle escalates to the point where a firearm is used. But, in the case where there is only one officer, facing a suspect that he reasonably believes presents imminent life threatening danger (and example would be if a police officer is faced with a suspect that JUST TRIED TO GRAB HIS GUN), then the cop has justifiable cause to use deadly force.

A friend of mine who is a police officer told me that he a taser should have been used. It seemed to make sense to me so I agreed with him.

[NY44]

You overlooked the key difference which is that Holmes offered zero resistance to the arresting officer. Do you understand how fundamentally important that is? You also conveniently describe Brown as "walking down the street", but we all know that is not what he did to get shot. I'm unclear how the officer's face got broken as a result of Brown walking down the street.

My main question is how a jay-walking violation turned confrontational? You also overlooked that there was no arresting officer in this case. The incident sounds more like a scrap between enemies than an encounter between an officer and a civilian. I still don't buy that Brown started the confrontation. It just doesn't add up.

[waggy]

I still don't buy that Brown started the confrontation. It just doesn't add up.


This is so surprising.

Facts could walk up to you and kick you in the nuts and you wouldn't get it.

[NY44]

This is so surprising.

Facts could walk up to you and kick you in the nuts and you wouldn't get it.

Just tell me how you think this went down. The cop drives by and Brown just reaches in the car for his gun?

[Xville]

Just tell me how you think this went down. The cop drives by and Brown just reaches in the car for his gun?

Brown was walking down the middle of the street...cop tells the kid to get out of the street....the kid doesn't because why should he fuck the cop.

If he would have just listened to the cop, instead of being a kid who disrespects authority (that problem extends beyond all races), we wouldn't have a 60 page topic on rioting right now, we wouldn't have a dead kid, nor would we have a cop with a broken eye socket.

[waggy]

Just tell me how you think this went down. The cop drives by and Brown just reaches in the car for his gun?


Why bother, but..

Brown has the convenience store encounter in mind when Wilson rolls up. Thinks Wilson might know. Wilson tells them to get out of the road, but Brown doesn't think it's about getting out of the road. They say they are almost to their destination. Wilson starts to leave, but doesn't like something that was said, has a change of mind and blocks them. Brown thinks he's going to jail and doesn't want to. The car door actually opens into them, so they are close enough that a struggle ensues without even need of provocation. Game on.

[DC Muskie]

Shouldn't there be a dashboard camera? That could answer a lot of questions.

[Kahns Krazy]

My main question is how a jay-walking violation turned confrontational?

Oh good. I like questions with clear answers. It turned confrontational because the individual who was breaking the law refused to obey the officer who asked him to obey the law.

[drudy23]

NY44, we know, just like you do, the likely events of what led to the altercation. It's very easy to hide behind the "prove it" theory when there is nothing but eyewitness accounts and no video. But we all know what happened. Blacks and Whites.

PS - Barry Bonds, Sammy Sosa, Mark McGwire, and Roger Clemens took steroids...yes, I'm sure.

[waggy]

Shouldn't there be a dashboard camera? That could answer a lot of questions.

Why? There is a camera in a convenience store that people are crying foul over now. You'd only care about a dash camera if it records what fits your agenda.

[Kahns Krazy]

Shouldn't there be a dashboard camera? That could answer a lot of questions.

I made that point about 4000 posts ago. Why isn't there a dashboard camera on every cop car recording 24/7, especially in the kind of neighborhood this seems to be?

[drudy23]

Why? There is a camera in a convenience store that people are crying foul over now. You'd only care about a dash camera if it records what fits your agenda.

And even if it didn't...HE WAS GOING TO COLLEGE IN 3 DAYS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[waggy]

And even if it didn't...HE WAS GOING TO COLLEGE IN 3 DAYS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


And he was at Grandmas house.

Going to jail for robbery near Grandmas house is a big problem. His attitude was resistive. But he's too big (and probably too cool) to run.

[NY44]

The car door actually opens into them, so they are close enough that a struggle ensues without even need of provocation.

I think that whole timeline makes a lot of sense actually. The quoted sentence is the one that makes me doubt the police officer. If nothing else, the closeness to them is what turned this into a fight. I don't believe they would have walked up to the cop car that closely. I would imagine that Wilson swerves close to intimidate them throws open the door hitting one of them Then game on. We can debate how the fight went down over and over, but that's the key for me. That's where the officer let emotions get in the way of his police work.

[Juice]

Shouldn't there be a dashboard camera? That could answer a lot of questions.

I'd say only about 50% of the police agencies in Hamilton County have them. Hamilton County sheriffs/deputies do not while Cincinnati PD does.

Obviously Hamilton County is not Ferguson but Ferguson may or may not. And judging by how they deal with things, I doubt they have them.

[DC Muskie]

Why? There is a camera in a convenience store that people are crying foul over now. You'd only care about a dash camera if it records what fits your agenda.

Well the dash camera is the only camera that would matter.

[waggy]

Well the dash camera is the only camera that would matter.


Thank you for confirming exactly what I said.

[waggy]

I think that whole timeline makes a lot of sense actually. The quoted sentence is the one that makes me doubt the police officer. If nothing else, the closeness to them is what turned this into a fight. I don't believe they would have walked up to the cop car that closely. I would imagine that Wilson swerves close to intimidate them throws open the door hitting one of them Then game on. We can debate how the fight went down over and over, but that's the key for me. That's where the officer let emotions get in the way of his police work.

Just because an officer blocks someone doesn't means it's "emotional". It doesn't mean he needs to change his tampon. It doesn't mean he's racist. It just means he's blocking them. He wants to talk some more.

[DC Muskie]

Thank you for confirming exactly what I said.

How?

[XU 87]

Oh good. I like questions with clear answers. It turned confrontational because the individual who was breaking the law refused to obey the officer who asked him to obey the law.

And then punched said officer in the face.

[Kahns Krazy]

I just pulled up a google map of the area that Brown was shot. From the air, it doesn't look like the kind of road that jaywalking in would be a real problem in. Looks pretty residential. https://www.google.com/maps/place/2900+Canfield+Dr,+St+Louis,+MO+63136/@38.7378955,-90.2732591,407m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m2!3m1!1s0x87df498841dbcfdd:0x7031e dd8f4368429

[DC Muskie]

I made that point about 4000 posts ago. Why isn't there a dashboard camera on every cop car recording 24/7, especially in the kind of neighborhood this seems to be?

Sorry.


I'd say only about 50% of the police agencies in Hamilton County have them. Hamilton County sheriffs/deputies do not while Cincinnati PD does.

Obviously Hamilton County is not Ferguson but Ferguson may or may not. And judging by how they deal with things, I doubt they have them.

That's incredible.

[waggy]

How?

Relative to the convenience store footage. So half of what I said.

[DC Muskie]

Relative to the convenience store footage. So half of what I said.

Did the convenience store show the confrontation between the cop and Brown? I don't think it did.

[waggy]

Did the convenience store show the confrontation between the cop and Brown? I don't think it did.


It showed Brown stealing some Swishers to take to Grandmas house.

[DC Muskie]

It showed Brown stealing some Swishers to take to Grandmas house.

So no confrontation?

[Xville]

Well the dash camera is the only camera that would matter.

just to clear this all up. I read a report in the St. Louis paper that said that Ferguson Police had finally gotten the funding for these, but they had not been either bought yet or installed yet.

[waggy]

So no confrontation?


So this not an attempt to ignore the convenience store footage?


Thank you for confirming exactly what I said.

[DC Muskie]

just to clear this all up. I read a report in the St. Louis paper that said that Ferguson Police had finally gotten the funding for these, but they had not been either bought yet or installed yet.

They have mine eraser vehicles but no dashboard cameras.

I can't help but laugh at the stupidity of that.

[drudy23]

The fact that there were no dash cams or tasers is irrelevant. Shoudl they have had them? Yes - but that's a lesson learned that should change in the future, but completely irrelevant if the officers actions were justified.

[DC Muskie]

So this not an attempt to ignore the convenience store footage?


Thank you for confirming exactly what I said.

Well why do I need to pay any credence to the convenience store footage? It doesn't show the confrontation between the cop and Brown.

I think you just confirmed what you think, it's is actually pretty funny.

"I think this."
"Yep, I just confirmed it."

[waggy]

They have mine eraser vehicles but no dashboard cameras.

I can't help but laugh at the stupidity of that.



One item was donated, the other the citizenry needs to pay for. Talk about stupidity.

[DC Muskie]

The fact that there were no dash cams or tasers is irrelevant. Shoudl they have had them? Yes - but that's a lesson learned that should change in the future, but completely irrelevant if the officers actions were justified.

I'm merely pointing out that I thought all departments had cameras. And if we had a camera that would show more of what happened, then I think a lot of what has happened over the past ten days wouldn't happen.

So I think not having a dashboard camera is extremely relevant.

[waggy]

Well why do I need to pay any credence to the convenience store footage? It doesn't show the confrontation between the cop and Brown.

I think you just confirmed what you think, it's is actually pretty funny.

"I think this."
"Yep, I just confirmed it."


You have nothing. Again.

[Kahns Krazy]

Sorry.

Damn straight! Don't make me shoot you.

I was really just saying I agreed about dash cams. No need to apologize. Continue your walk in the street.

[DC Muskie]

One item was donated, the other the citizenry needs to pay for. Talk about stupidity.


They could have sold the donated one and bought the other with the funds.

Stupidity times three.

[DC Muskie]

Continue your walk in the street.

Just to be clear, I actually run in the street. The bike lane specifically.

[waggy]

They could have sold the donated one and bought the other with the funds.

Stupidity times three.


The item was donated because it has little value on the market. Stupid times 4.

[Kahns Krazy]

One item was donated, the other the citizenry needs to pay for. Talk about stupidity.

Who do you think paid for the "donated" items. The magic money fairy?

[DC Muskie]

You have nothing. Again.

What?

[DC Muskie]

The item was donated because it has little value on the market. Stupid times 4.

Reread this sentence.

I will wait for your apology.

[Kahns Krazy]

Just to be clear, I actually run in the street. The bike lane specifically.

If you bump into Thor, don't shoot him.

[waggy]

Who do you think paid for the "donated" items. The magic money fairy?


Ferguson didn't buy the vehicle(s). They were decomissioned items, originally paid for by the feds, with little market value.

[Xville]

They have mine eraser vehicles but no dashboard cameras.

I can't help but laugh at the stupidity of that.

you can thank your federal government for that..federal programs pay for the militarization of the local police, though they won't pay for dash cams. Dash cams cost about 3k to run and install..Ferguson bought 2 but have yet to install them. Plus, the cam might have helped a little bit, but the problem with the dash cam is it only will show the front of the vehicle, and a lot of times does not even have sound.

[waggy]

Reread this sentence.

I will wait for your apology.

You said they should sell it to pay for dash cams. STuPId times 5.

[DC Muskie]

If you bump into Thor, don't shoot him.

I can't promise that.

[DC Muskie]

you can thank your federal government for that..federal programs pay for the militarization of the local police, though they won't pay for dash cams. Dash cams cost about 3k to run and install..Ferguson bought 2 but have yet to install them. Plus, the cam might have helped a little bit, but the problem with the dash cam is it only will show the front of the vehicle, and a lot of times does not even have sound.

I'm pretty confident that dash cam would have been a huge help.

And if you don't have sound, they why bother?

[waggy]

I'm pretty confident that dash cam would have been a huge help.




Of course they would, because right now the only footage that exists is very problematic for the narrative.

[DC Muskie]

Ferguson didn't buy the vehicle(s). They were decomissioned items, originally paid for by the feds, with little market value.

You realize they still have to apply in order to get the vehicle, right? Do you think the feds just dumped it off, no questions asked?

Hell you went from arguing that they had no market value to "little" market value.

You are losing your train of thought down the rabbit hole you fallen into.

[Xville]

I'm pretty confident that dash cam would have been a huge help.

And if you don't have sound, they why bother?

it may have been or people may have said it was doctored, and there would still have been riots.

As for the sound, i agree but im just regurgitating what I read....it said that some departments will buy separate microphones to wear on their person but not everyone does.

[DC Muskie]

Of course they would, because right now the only footage that exists is very problematic for the narrative.

What narrative is that exactly?

I am more interested in what actually happened between the cop and the kid he shot and killed.

[waggy]

You realize they still have to apply in order to get the vehicle, right? Do you think the feds just dumped it off, no questions asked?

Hell you went from arguing that they had no market value to "little" market value.

You are losing your train of thought down the rabbit hole you fallen into.


Look at you, reduced to splitting hairs.

[waggy]

What narrative is that exactly?

I am more interested in what actually happened between the cop and the kid he shot and killed.


Another left winger having trouble putting two and two together. STupId X 6.

[Snipe]

FERGUSON, Mo. (KMOV.com) – Police said at least 52 people were arrested, two people were shot, and four officers were injured during the protests in Ferguson Sunday night and Monday.

Most are charged with failure to disperse. County police said 93 percent of those arrested were non-Ferguson residents. Of those arrested, 27 percent were non-Missouri residents.

This really isn't about Ferguson, or Mike Brown. This is about social justice and ginning up the black vote. Who can be for racist whites hunting down and killing young black men? Which side are you on?

People arrive in droves from outside to cause mayhem and stoke the flames. You can see the professionally made signs and t-shirts. Celebrety race baiters like Sharpton come to town. Jessie Jackson actually did some fundraising. They even have a voter registration tent right at the site where the young man died. George Soro's money is flowing in. Immigration advocates (http://www.mira-mo.org/wordpress/)are getting in on the deal, as are the Palestinian Gaza (http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/08/20/michael-brown-gaza-and-muslim-americans.html)faction.

It is a parade of leftist causes in this carnival of chaos. The money and trouble coming pouring in, and I seriously doubt that Ferguson will ever recover. Who wants to live in Ferguson? If you are black, and you buy into the Democratic party strategy of white police hunting down and shooting young black men, Ferguson doesn't sound like a nice place. And if you are white, well I just take it for granted that most white people are averse to black race riots and looting. It worked so well for Detroit.

White people are racist. I get it. Amusing to see that even White Democrats are under the gun, like the prosecutor and the governor. That is going to continue as the Demographics change and they no longer need you. They will begin more and more to let you know how they feel about you and your Whiteness.

And if the Grand Jury fails to indict the union member with the swollen face and busted eye socket, people from outside of Ferguson are going to torch Ferguson, and it will go up in flames to all of our live coverage amusement.

[DC Muskie]

Look at you, reduced to splitting hairs.

Come back to us waggy. You're falling deeper and deeper!

[DC Muskie]

Another left winger having trouble putting two and two together. STupId X 6.

I have no idea what this means.

I'm interested in seeing the actual confrontation and you seem to be interested in reinforcing whatever it is you think.

[waggy]

Come back to us waggy. You're falling deeper and deeper!

This is pathetic.

[drudy23]

I'm merely pointing out that I thought all departments had cameras. And if we had a camera that would show more of what happened, then I think a lot of what has happened over the past ten days wouldn't happen.

So I think not having a dashboard camera is extremely relevant.

Relevant to what? It may be relevant in your brain, but it's not relevant to any substantial piece to this case.

"Why didn't you have a dashboard cam"..."our department has enver bought them"..."well, if you had them, this would be much easier. Looks like you're guilty" OR

"Why didn't you tase hime"..."We don't have department issued tazers"...."Well, damn, again, guilty"

[DC Muskie]

Relevant to what? It may be relevant in your brain, but it's not relevant to any substantial piece to this case.

"Why didn't you have a dashboard cam"..."our department has enver bought them"..."well, if you had them, this would be much easier. Looks like you're guilty" OR

"Why didn't you tase hime"..."We don't have department issued tazers"...."Well, damn, again, guilty"

I think all of these questions are relevant. Especially if you are going into a "war zone" you paint this place.

If you want definite answers as to what went down, seeing Brown and Wilson confront each other would define which party is guilty.

[waggy]

This really isn't about Ferguson, or Mike Brown. This is about social justice and ginning up the black vote.

Amusing to see that even White Democrats are under the gun, like the prosecutor and the governor. That is going to continue as the Demographics change and they no longer need you. They will begin more and more to let you know how they feel about you and your Whiteness.



Read it and weep dumbphucks.

Don't stand your ground. If you resist you're a racist. Thuggery is okay.

What does it say when a political party finds it okay to give a acceptable nod to thuggery is ok?

[drudy23]

I think all of these questions are relevant. Especially if you are going into a "war zone" you paint this place.

If you want definite answers as to what went down, seeing Brown and Wilson confront each other would define which party is guilty.

Is the question "why didn't they have cameras" a relevant question? Yes

Is the question "why didn't they have have cameras" a relevant question to the judicial proceedings of this case? No

You cannot make ANY determinations of a man's livlihood based on a departmental decision that the officer had no impact on. Could the police departmetn come under scrutiny for not having dash cams or tasers? Absolutely....will any of that have any relevance to the final indictment or potential verdict of the officer? No way.

[DC Muskie]

Read it and weep dumbphucks.

Don't stand your ground. If you resist you're a racist. Thuggery is okay.

What does it say when a political party finds it okay to give a acceptable nod to thuggery is ok?


This is pathetic.

You said it brother!

[Snipe]

"Late Monday, reporters estimated that the number of protesters had dropped to around 100, far fewer than the number of media members who were covering them."

Seeing that the media outnumbered the protestors made me laugh. It also made me think of this classic:

1481

[DC Muskie]

Is the question "why didn't they have cameras" a relevant question? Yes

Good, thank you!


Is the question "why didn't they have have cameras" a relevant question to the judicial proceedings of this case? No

Of course, but it certainly would have helped.


You cannot make ANY determinations of a man's livlihood based on a departmental decision that the officer had no impact on. Could the police departmetn come under scrutiny for not having dash cams or tasers? Absolutely....will any of that have any relevance to the final indictment or potential verdict of the officer? Now way.

That's not the point I'm trying to make. I'm not finding the officer guilty because there is no dash camera, I was merely asking about whether there was one.

The details of this incident are coming out drip by drip. I was wondering if there would be a dash camera that would clarify things. Two people had a confrontation, one person is dead. A camera certainly would have helped.

[Snipe]

The Real Nightmare of Ferguson (http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/08/15/the-real-nightmare-of-ferguson.html)

Racial strife, paramilitary commandos, rampant injustice: What happened in Ferguson truly scared us because we see the chaos there as a preview of what could soon come to the rest of America.

I thought this was an interesting passage:


“It is entirely possible that some young blacks are now being prepared to act as scourges of the unjust American social order.”

Americans—in and out of my Twitter feed—have begun to grasp that hideous possibility: that America has manufactured a violent and predominantly black permanent underclass, subjected to our malignant paranoia about crime, living slow-motion death sentences in ghettos from which no amount of presidential hope, change, or lecturing can release them.

Even more important, Americans have begun to understand that the scourge-ification of this underclass is inseparable from the realization of our worst collective nightmare—the scourging of America itself, the ruin of the promise of America that still strikes us in our gut as providential. The widespread belief, still largely subconscious or at least unspoken, that America is breaking, and that we deserve the suffering ahead.

I have contended for a long time that the lower economic Black class, which consists of a majority of African Americans is unbelievably broken and far worse than most people realize. We have lots of successful and wealthy black people, a wealth of athletes and entertainers, comics and actors, even a President to show how far things have come. And it is good stuff. We probably have more wealthy and talented black people than any country in the world.

But on the other end, I sincerely feel that the black community is worse off right now than it was in the days of Jim Crow. During Jim Crow we had racist laws on the books and segregation, but the black community at least had intact families and communities. And because I have to say it for some of you turds I am not advocating a return to Jim Crow, just my belief that I think the Black Community right now is as broken as it has ever been in American history outside of slavery.

It really is bad.

Who doesn't support Civil Rights? Who doesn't want everyone to succeed? Who doesn't think every child deserves a loving family with two parents and a safe and effective school?

I think most Americans are delusional on lower class blacks. They see civil rights history and tolerance and acceptance in American history with pride and they envision that things have been getting better for black people for decades. And indeed for elite blacks things have been getting better and better for decades. But you are fooling yourself if you think this applies to the whole community. In my own opinion and experience things on the ground are not getting better. I don't think they have ever been worse during my lifetime. The black community is broken. We don't know how to fix it.

I think more and more Americans are beginning to realize this.

[Xville]

I thought this was an interesting passage:



I have contended for a long time that the lower economic Black class, which consists of a majority of African Americans is unbelievably broken and far worse than most people realize. We have lots of successful and wealthy black people, a wealth of athletes and entertainers, comics and actors, even a President to show how far things have come. And it is good stuff. We probably have more wealthy and talented black people than any country in the world.

But on the other end, I sincerely feel that the black community is worse off right now than it was in the days of Jim Crow. During Jim Crow we had racist laws on the books and segregation, but the black community at least had intact families and communities. And because I have to say it for some of you turds I am not advocating a return to Jim Crow, just my belief that I think the Black Community right now is as broken as it has ever been in American history outside of slavery.

It really is bad.

Who doesn't support Civil Rights? Who doesn't want everyone to succeed? Who doesn't think every child deserves a loving family with two parents and a safe and effective school?

I think most Americans are delusional on lower class blacks. They see civil rights history and tolerance and acceptance in American history with pride and they envision that things have been getting better for black people for decades. And indeed for elite blacks things have been getting better and better for decades. But you are fooling yourself if you think this applies to the whole community. In my own opinion and experience things on the ground are not getting better. I don't think they have ever been worse during my lifetime. The black community is broken. We don't know how to fix it.

I think more and more Americans are beginning to realize this.

In my opinion, it isn't that the "black" community has gotten worse, it is the lower economic class as a whole that has gotten worse. The main reason why it is so broken is because of the many federal government decisions that have kept people from having the motivation to do better. Why do better when I can just pop out another kid and get more welfare money? That is the system that is broken and needs to be fixed.

[Snipe]

In my opinion, it isn't that the "black" community has gotten worse, it is the lower economic class as a whole that has gotten worse. The main reason why it is so broken is because of the many federal government decisions that have kept people from having the motivation to do better. Why do better when I can just pop out another kid and get more welfare money? That is the system that is broken and needs to be fixed.

You make a valid point. Charles Murray's book "Coming Apart" is about how broken and dysfunctional poor white communities are. I think once the families start breaking down you have hit the tipping point. Our prisons are filled with kids who grew up in broken homes.

[blobfan]

I think that whole timeline makes a lot of sense actually. The quoted sentence is the one that makes me doubt the police officer. If nothing else, the closeness to them is what turned this into a fight. I don't believe they would have walked up to the cop car that closely. I would imagine that Wilson swerves close to intimidate them throws open the door hitting one of them Then game on. We can debate how the fight went down over and over, but that's the key for me. That's where the officer let emotions get in the way of his police work.
OR, the officer pulls even with the pair, opens his door in front of them and before he has a chance to get out Brown slams the door back at him. Why didn't he run away after that? Well, the officer got a hand on his arm and was trying to keep him from running after taking such and aggressive action.

Both theories are plausible at this point. We just don't know.

Just to be clear, I actually run in the street. The bike lane specifically.

And if a cop pulls up and tells you to get out of the street do you stop an argue? Cop waives at me to slow down I don't make faces at him. I acknowledge that I'm breaking a law and got caught and choose to comply cause going a few miles slower isn't a big deal in the scheme of things. Nor is moving from street to sidewalk. Why start a confrontation in the first place? Unless you are feeling all hyped up and powerful after stealing $50 bucks of materials from a local store and think you are invincible because you pushed around some poor clerk that's a head shorter than you.

[blobfan]

You make a valid point. Charles Murray's book "Coming Apart" is about how broken and dysfunctional poor white communities are. I think once the families start breaking down you have hit the tipping point. Our prisons are filled with kids who grew up in broken homes.

But we give the poor whites reality shows (Wild's of KY, 16 and Pregnant) which makes them seem more glamorous so they don't feel as bad about themselves.

[Juice]

Read it and weep dumbphucks.

Don't stand your ground. If you resist you're a racist. Thuggery is okay.

What does it say when a political party finds it okay to give a acceptable nod to thuggery is ok?

I'll correct you on all of this. I don't think a single person thinks what Michael Brown did before the confrontation was ok. Everyone thinks he should have been arrested, charged, found guilty and served some sort of sentence for what was actually probably more of a theft than a robbery. Everyone agrees that he fucked up.

Here is where we diverge. Us "left wingers" which is inaccurate, because I have never voted for a Democrat in my life, believe that there were/are problems with the way Ferguson runs its police force. And because of that, we want more information about the officer and the situation that occurred to make him think that he needed to shoot someone. "Right wingers" still believe in constitutional rights, which also apply to people that appear to have committed a crime but haven't been found guilty of it.

Michael Brown's theft has very little to no relevance in whether the officer was justified in using deadly force. Nothing about that theft/robbery indicated that he had a firearm or any other weapon. The broken orbital bone of the officer? Sure that goes to it.

You think because someone is simply a criminal that they deserve to be shot by an officer. You will respond with, "WHen did i say that?! Show me." I'll disregard it because I don't feel like looking up your 1,000 posts on this subject as you discreetly pretend that you have perfect understanding of race relations and why people are so upset with all of this. And yes, I understand that a white person was shot by police in LA. It's not the same thing.

[Juice]

Good, thank you!



Of course, but it certainly would have helped.



That's not the point I'm trying to make. I'm not finding the officer guilty because there is no dash camera, I was merely asking about whether there was one.

The details of this incident are coming out drip by drip. I was wondering if there would be a dash camera that would clarify things. Two people had a confrontation, one person is dead. A camera certainly would have helped.

More on the cameras in Hamilton County: As someone has indicated, it's mostly about cost. I know several agencies in the suburbs that at one point have the dash cams, have since phased them out. Not because they are trying to conceal things, but because once the break down, it is too expensive to fix.

[waggy]

I'll correct you on all of this. I don't think a single person thinks what Michael Brown did before the confrontation was ok. Everyone thinks he should have been arrested, charged, found guilty and served some sort of sentence for what was actually probably more of a theft than a robbery. Everyone agrees that he fucked up.

Here is where we diverge. Us "left wingers" which is inaccurate, because I have never voted for a Democrat in my life, believe that there were/are problems with the way Ferguson runs its police force. And because of that, we want more information about the officer and the situation that occurred to make him think that he needed to shoot someone. "Right wingers" still believe in constitutional rights, which also apply to people that appear to have committed a crime but haven't been found guilty of it.

Michael Brown's theft has very little to no relevance in whether the officer was justified in using deadly force. Nothing about that theft/robbery indicated that he had a firearm or any other weapon. The broken orbital bone of the officer? Sure that goes to it.

You think because someone is simply a criminal that they deserve to be shot by an officer. You will respond with, "WHen did i say that?! Show me." I'll disregard it because I don't feel like looking up your 1,000 posts on this subject as you discreetly pretend that you have perfect understanding of race relations and why people are so upset with all of this. And yes, I understand that a white person was shot by police in LA. It's not the same thing.


Bullshit. That cop was conficted and crucifed inside of 24 hrs. "Unarmed black kid getting ready to start college on his way to Grandmas house execution style".

If not for that convenience store footage this is already over.

[DC Muskie]

Bullshit. That cop was conficted and crucifed inside of 24 hrs. "Unarmed black kid getting ready to start college on his way to Grandmas house execution style".

If not for that convenience store footage this is already over.

Bullshit.

[Kahns Krazy]

But we give the poor whites reality shows (Wild's of KY, 16 and Pregnant) which makes them seem more glamorous so they don't feel as bad about themselves.
Don't forget Honey Boo Boo. I love that show. Who else cried when Anna got married???? OMG!

More on the cameras in Hamilton County: As someone has indicated, it's mostly about cost. I know several agencies in the suburbs that at one point have the dash cams, have since phased them out. Not because they are trying to conceal things, but because once the break down, it is too expensive to fix.

That has to be an example of poor government purchasing. Amazon has this thing for $55. http://smile.amazon.com/BOOMYOURS-270%C2%B0Rotating-Dual-Camera-Lens/dp/B008GAMNBK/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1408566359&sr=8-3&keywords=dash+camera I'm sure it's not as good/durable as the full $3,000 mounted version, but there has to be some middle ground for say $500. Or integrate it into the light bar on top of the cop car. WTF. Why is this so hard?

[waggy]

Bullshit.


You're sure doing a lot of whimpering today.

[Kahns Krazy]

Bullshit. That cop was conficted and crucifed inside of 24 hrs. "Unarmed black kid getting ready to start college on his way to Grandmas house execution style".

If not for that convenience store footage this is already over.

I'm not sure you know what crucified means, or how to spell it.

[DC Muskie]

You're sure doing a lot of whimpering today.

Ha! Classic waggy!

[waggy]

I'm not sure you know what crucified means, or how to spell it.


The spelling police is here! Don't shoot I'm on my way to Grandmas house!

[DC Muskie]

The spelling police is here! Don't shoot I'm on my way to Grandmas house!

Look waggy has a college degree! Stand your ground, he's coming after you!

[MHettel]

A friend of mine who is a police officer told me that he a taser should have been used. It seemed to make sense to me so I agreed with him.

Your friend was at the scene of the incident? Lets get him to make a statement, then and we can clear this thing right up.

[MHettel]

My main question is how a jay-walking violation turned confrontational? You also overlooked that there was no arresting officer in this case. The incident sounds more like a scrap between enemies than an encounter between an officer and a civilian. I still don't buy that Brown started the confrontation. It just doesn't add up.

Lets get this straight. There certainly WAS a confrontation between Brown and the Cop. And using your logic, we must allocate blame for starting it.

So, our options are:

1) The defiant giant who just walks down the middle of the street literally after having JUST walked out the front door of a store having stole cheap cigars and phycally accosting and intimdating the storekeeper.....

or

2) A 6 year police veteran on patrol.

Yes, I'm with you. I can see absolutley NO SCENARIO where Brown might have started this confrontation. It was all the cop. the pieces were finally in place for him to stage this thing in just such a way where he could kill a black teenager and still have a plausable reason for doign so.

Honestly. This is almost too easy at this point. I feel like a cat toying with a mouse.

[MHettel]

Don't forget Honey Boo Boo. I love that show. Who else cried when Anna got married???? OMG!


That has to be an example of poor government purchasing. Amazon has this thing for $55. http://smile.amazon.com/BOOMYOURS-270%C2%B0Rotating-Dual-Camera-Lens/dp/B008GAMNBK/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1408566359&sr=8-3&keywords=dash+camera I'm sure it's not as good/durable as the full $3,000 mounted version, but there has to be some middle ground for say $500. Or integrate it into the light bar on top of the cop car. WTF. Why is this so hard?

Why dont we just have my 6 year old daughter ride along with some crayons and draw pictures of what she sees?

Seriously. The deperation here is laughable.

A white cop killing an innocent, college bound black kid execution style was the pinnacle of the your argument. Then the facts started rolling in, and now we're left with red-herring discussion points related to the quality some do-it-yourself cameras available on e-bay, and wondering aloud what kind of secondary market existis for military grade mine-sweeping equipment.

[xubrew]

Your friend was at the scene of the incident? Lets get him to make a statement, then and we can clear this thing right up.

Were you at the scene of the incident?? You talk as if you were. But, to be fair, most other people in this thread talk as if they were as well.

I tend to value a cop's opinion on matters that concern cops more than I value the opinions of people that aren't cops. Had he said that a taser would not have been sufficient, I would have believed that as well.

[Boro Muskie]

What happens if the tox screen (assuming one was completed) comes back positive for illegal substances? Will this play into one or both sides? This is already a pretty big clusterfuck so why not add to it.

[DC Muskie]

What happens if the tox screen (assuming one was completed) comes back positive for illegal substances? Will this play into one or both sides? This is already a pretty big clusterfuck so why not add to it.

It was determined that Brown had weed in his system.

[casualfan]

It was determined that Brown had weed in his system.

By the fact that he stole a box of swishers. They could have saved themselves some money on the tox screen.

[DC Muskie]

By the fact that he stole a box of swishers. They could have saved themselves some money on the tox screen.

And spent it on dash cameras.

Full circle on this!

[paulxu]

I read an interesting article where a police force in a community were provided cameras they wore on their clothes.
Maybe some sort of gopro type deals. So all their community interactions were filmed.
The number of problems went down dramatically.
I would think these sorts of things would be worth the effort/cost, especially in difficult community situations.
Would take away a lot of mystery in these cases.

[waggy]

"Unarmed black kid getting ready to start college on his way to Grandmas house execution style".



for Jaywalking.

[MHettel]

Were you at the scene of the incident?? You talk as if you were. But, to be fair, most other people in this thread talk as if they were as well.

I tend to value a cop's opinion on matters that concern cops more than I value the opinions of people that aren't cops. Had he said that a taser would not have been sufficient, I would have believed that as well.

I tend to go with what a cop actually did. And the cop DID choose a gun to protect himself from the threat. (still no idea if he had a taser or not, but I'm going with his judgement since he is one of only 2 people who know how real teh threat was...)

[MHettel]

What happens if the tox screen (assuming one was completed) comes back positive for illegal substances? Will this play into one or both sides? This is already a pretty big clusterfuck so why not add to it.

For the cop or the robber?

I really dont care if the kid had weed or any other drug in his system or not. It could help explain his actions, but I dont think the presence of drugs in his system means that he MUST have been hostile, or alternatively the absence of drugs in his system certainly doesnt mean he WASN'T hostile. The witnesses should describe the actions taken. Although I CERTAIN that any good lawyer would use that to his advantage to try to sway a jury...

if the COP had any drugs in his system, then he will fry. Whether it was a factor or not, it will not matter.

[Xville]

I tend to go with what a cop actually did. And the cop DID choose a gun to protect himself from the threat. (still no idea if he had a taser or not, but I'm going with his judgement since he is one of only 2 people who know how real teh threat was...)

Ugh never mind...when's the season start

[NY44]

Lets get this straight. There certainly WAS a confrontation between Brown and the Cop. And using your logic, we must allocate blame for starting it.

So, our options are:

1) The defiant giant who just walks down the middle of the street literally after having JUST walked out the front door of a store having stole cheap cigars and phycally accosting and intimdating the storekeeper.....

or

2) A 6 year police veteran on patrol.

Yes, I'm with you. I can see absolutley NO SCENARIO where Brown might have started this confrontation. It was all the cop. the pieces were finally in place for him to stage this thing in just such a way where he could kill a black teenager and still have a plausable reason for doign so.

Honestly. This is almost too easy at this point. I feel like a cat toying with a mouse.

Cut it with the rhetorical crap, you sound like a child. You guys need to stop pretending like there's no other plausible side to this debate. Millions of people disagree with you.

If you believe that the officer asked them to get out of the street and then they attacked him, then that's fine. I don't.

[PM Thor]

Brass tacks here. Who would you believe more in terms of a confrontation? An 18 year old who just strong arm robbed a convenience store, or a 28 year old 6 year veteran of a police force? Forget every other supposed eye witness. Who would have more to lose if these two confronted one another?

[waggy]

Actually what I think happened is when Wilson pulled his cruiser to block them and was starting to get out that Brown decided he couldn't get arrested at Grandmas (he thought is was about the convenience store), and he's too big to run, so he has to disable Wilson somehow, so he pushed the car door into Wilson sending him back. The story that the door bounced back on accident is an embelishment. At that point maybe he punched Wilson immediately, or maybe he didn't punch him until after Wilson grabbed his arm. Either way he hit him. Of course now the fight is seriously on.

[NY44]

Actually what I think happened is when Wilson pulled his cruiser to block them

Do you not find this to be wildly unnecessary? People have been saying that Brown should have just moved to the sidewalk and they're right, but should the officer have not just driven away? If this community is as bad as some have said it is, then why get so worked up about a petty violation like walking in the street?

[waggy]

Do you not find this to be wildly unnecessary? People have been saying that Brown should have just moved to the sidewalk and they're right, but should the officer have not just driven away? If this community is as bad as some have said it is, then why get so worked up about a petty violation like walking in the street?


I don't find it even mildly unnecessary. If you're in the road you might come across a car once in a while. How do you know he was "worked up"? Maybe he just wanted to talk some more. Find out why they were acting strangely. If he knows the community, he probably wonders who Brown is and where he's from. Bottom line I've seen police block people with their cars. It's not a big deal. It's not even a little deal.

[waggy]

It might even be a standard safety measure to position the cruiser in such a way that another car doesn't come along and run the pedestrians over.

[waggy]

So there you have it. When they told Wilson they would get out of the road soon, that they were almost to their destination, he can't just say have a nice day and drive off. It's simply against procedure. A car could come along and run them over. So he positions his car to protect them in the event another car does come along, and is simply curious about their nonsensical response.

This garbage about Wilson being "worked up" for jaywalking is fabricated by people watching too many Saturday morning cartoons where the characters have all these petty little phobias.

[LA Muskie]

I don't think there's anything left to say. Or to investigate further. Waggy's got it all figured out. Thanks Sherlock.

[waggy]

You're welcome.

I know you're relieved to discover what an excellent cop Wilson was.

The man survived a sucker punch that busted his eye socket, and he was able to not give up his gun. That's pretty good. Man's got my respect.

[PM Thor]

Wags, you are seriously reaching here. I seriously doubt the cop blocked the road to protect those guys, among other things. Yeah, I know the other side is making wild claims too, but that doesn't validate making wild claims on the cops side though. That's about as revisionist as saying that M.Brown was an innocent. How about cutting out these crazy, unsubstantiated, highly speculative suppositions and just let the multi tiered system work? And yeah, I'm speaking to both sides on this.

[waggy]

I seriously doubt the cop blocked the road to protect those guys,


It doesn't matter. He either blocked it to talk to them and/or to protect them. It wasn't some fit of rage phobia he has for black jaywalking.

Then he got sucker punched.

Those are the pertinent facts.

[PM Thor]

It doesn't matter. He either blocked it to talk to them and/or to protect them. It wasn't some fit of rage phobia he has for black jaywalking.

Then he got sucker punched.

Those are the pertinent facts.

No, those aren't facts. That's assumption. Hell, we don't even really know if the cop blocked the street for Chrissakes, yet you are jumping to conclusions about cops being sucker punched. Come on man, we honestly don't know what went down. Again, you are reaching here.

[jcubspoe]

I'm merely pointing out that I thought all departments had cameras. And if we had a camera that would show more of what happened, then I think a lot of what has happened over the past ten days wouldn't happen.

So I think not having a dashboard camera is extremely relevant.

Couple of points here: One, most departments have cameras now. Not all but most. I'd be surprised if Ferguson didn't have them. Two, hardly anything ever gets picked up on a camera anyway other then routine traffic stops where the officer is standing directly in front of the camera. IF Officer Wilson had one, it wouldn't matter as everything happened at the side of the car.

[PM Thor]

Aaaand in Cincy (and most other major cities) the camera doesn't kick on unless their emergency lights are on.

[NY44]

I don't find it even mildly unnecessary.

Bravo on the wildly to mildly. Bravo

[MHettel]

In addition to the broken orbital bone, the cop also had 2 teeth knocked out.

Also, get ready for the main eyewitness (also known as the co-defendant in the strongarm robbery) to make some modifications to his initial statement...

[SM#24]

Is anybody wondering what happened to the cigars ?

[jcubspoe]

We still don't know exactly what happened in those brief seconds but what we DO know is that Brown's friend told an out right lie (s) to the investigators and media. We know Officer Wilson didn't just pull up and grab Brown and as Brown backed away with his hands up get shot in the back. None of that happened. Back ground witnesses in a video completely contradict this version of events and autopsy along with injuries sustained by the officer contradict this friends initial version of events.

[MHettel]

Is anybody wondering what happened to the cigars ?

Monica Lewinsky was apparently in or around St. Louis at the time, so I'd start there....

[blobfan]

Cut it with the rhetorical crap, you sound like a child. You guys need to stop pretending like there's no other plausible side to this debate. Millions of people disagree with you.

If you believe that the officer asked them to get out of the street and then they attacked him, then that's fine. I don't.
That's the problem and exactly why people keep arguing with you. Your arguments are just as rhetorical. We don't have all the facts but you've made up your mind. I recall no post of yours that considers any possible scenario where the officer isn't a murderer. That means you are posting with a specific agenda in mind and therefore everything you say is suspect, no matter how logical it may seem.

Brass tacks here. Who would you believe more in terms of a confrontation? An 18 year old who just strong arm robbed a convenience store, or a 28 year old 6 year veteran of a police force? Forget every other supposed eye witness. Who would have more to lose if these two confronted one another?
Let's rephrase that a bit shall we?: Who would you believe more in terms of a confrontation? An 18 year old who just strong arm robbed a convenience store, or a 28 year old 6 year veteran of a police force that has a history of questionable interactions with the public and overreacting during confrontations with people of color?

Because that's what it comes down to. The officer may way have followed procedure but after what has gone down recently in Ferguson and elsewhere in St Louis, I think police procedure in that area is seriously f'd up. To be clear, I think the Cincy riots and consent decree were a bunch of inflated BS and a money-grab by certain black "community leaders" and their clients. I usually fall on the side of law and order. I didn't even start entertaining this idea until I saw the police standing atop armored vehicles AIMING THEIR GUNS at peaceful protesters. Approaching a situation with guns pointed at a suspect without first making a preliminary assessment just seems like bad police work. It's offensive to compare it to a military action. How many scenes from Iraq and Afghanistan have we seen on the news where armed soldiers have their barrels up rather than down?

Maybe I'm waffling but from what I've seen, the officer acted as trained and should not be convicted and the police department needs an overhaul and probably a civil rights violation suit slapped on them for good measure. (On a side note, wouldn't it be nice to see the proceedings from such a suit go to helping local disadvantaged kids rather than the family of the deceased? Wonder how much of Timothy Thomas's mother's winnings is left.)

[waggy]

Let's rephrase that a bit shall we?: Who would you believe more in terms of a confrontation? An 18 year old who just strong arm robbed a convenience store, or a 28 year old 6 year veteran of a police force that has a history of questionable interactions with the public and overreacting during confrontations with people of color?

Because that's what it comes down to. The officer may way have followed procedure but after what has gone down recently in Ferguson and elsewhere in St Louis, I think police procedure in that area is seriously f'd up. To be clear, I think the Cincy riots and consent decree were a bunch of inflated BS and a money-grab by certain black "community leaders" and their clients. I usually fall on the side of law and order. I didn't even start entertaining this idea until I saw the police standing atop armored vehicles AIMING THEIR GUNS at peaceful protesters. Approaching a situation with guns pointed at a suspect without first making a preliminary assessment just seems like bad police work. It's offensive to compare it to a military action. How many scenes from Iraq and Afghanistan have we seen on the news where armed soldiers have their barrels up rather than down?

Maybe I'm waffling but from what I've seen, the officer acted as trained and should not be convicted and the police department needs an overhaul and probably a civil rights violation suit slapped on them for good measure. (On a side note, wouldn't it be nice to see the proceedings from such a suit go to helping local disadvantaged kids rather than the family of the deceased? Wonder how much of Timothy Thomas's mother's winnings is left.)

Wilson has a history of questionable interactions with the public and overreactions / confrontations with people of color?

I thought I read where he had a completely clean record.

I also think the Ferguson police have done an unbelievable job not killing anyone else. There has been a bunch of taunting and baiting by people there trying to trip up the police, trying to make them out to be what they claim them to be. And much of this from outsiders. The police are in riot mode. They are simply protecting themselves from threats that may or may not exist in a huge crowd of people. They've come under "heavy fire" and didn't even return fire. That's actually kinda Effed up.

The Ferguson police are fine.

[blobfan]

Wilson has a history of questionable interactions with the public and overreactions / confrontations with people of color?

I thought I read where he had a completely clean record.

I also think the Ferguson police have done an unbelievable job not killing anyone else. There has been a bunch of taunting and baiting by people there trying to trip up the police, trying to make them out to be what they claim them to be. And much of this from outsiders. The police are in riot mode. They are simply protecting themselves from threats that may or may not exist in a huge crowd of people. They've come under "heavy fire" and didn't even return fire. That's actually kinda Effed up.

The Ferguson police are fine.

Pretty sure I was grammatically correct in my phrasing and the clause that has a history of questionable interactions with the public and overreacting during confrontations with people of color was correctly associated with police force. The difference being that I believe the officer could have acted wrong while thinking he was acting right because his training was wrong.

[waggy]

Pretty sure I was grammatically correct in my phrasing and the clause that has a history of questionable interactions with the public and overreacting during confrontations with people of color was correctly associated with police force. The difference being that I believe the officer could have acted wrong while thinking he was acting right because his training was wrong.


Okay I see that now.

[Kahns Krazy]

In my initial analysis of this story, I thought the blame should be around 60% Brown 40% Wilson. Now I think it should be about 90% Brown, 90% Wilson and 70% Ferguson police. That's right, 250% blame. There is some serious f'ed up crap going on out there.

[xubrew]

Wilson is just a thug. Here is a video of him from a few years back overreacting to someone who did nothing more than accidentally sit in his seat....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ICBky4SKFeA

[Juice]

Wilson has a history of questionable interactions with the public and overreactions / confrontations with people of color?

I thought I read where he had a completely clean record.

I also think the Ferguson police have done an unbelievable job not killing anyone else. There has been a bunch of taunting and baiting by people there trying to trip up the police, trying to make them out to be what they claim them to be. And much of this from outsiders. The police are in riot mode. They are simply protecting themselves from threats that may or may not exist in a huge crowd of people. They've come under "heavy fire" and didn't even return fire. That's actually kinda Effed up.

The Ferguson police are fine.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2726727/Ferguson-police-mistakenly-arrested-innocent-man-viciously-beating-charging-bleeding-THEIR-uniforms.html

[xu82]

In my initial analysis of this story, I thought the blame should be around 60% Brown 40% Wilson. Now I think it should be about 90% Brown, 90% Wilson and 70% Ferguson police. That's right, 250% blame. There is some serious f'ed up crap going on out there.

I am hoping you were not a math major at Xavier University. Only athletes have a "more than 100% exemption". Know the rules! They're not expected to be mathematicians, but the rest of us have to play by the rules. (But I think you may be right.)

[NY44]

That's the problem and exactly why people keep arguing with you. Your arguments are just as rhetorical. We don't have all the facts but you've made up your mind. I recall no post of yours that considers any possible scenario where the officer isn't a murderer. That means you are posting with a specific agenda in mind and therefore everything you say is suspect, no matter how logical it may seem.

That's not true. My stance since the beginning is that we don't know and that the police need to be transparent enough so we do. They should be able to prove that the use of lethal force was necessary beyond a reasonable doubt and they've failed to do that thus far. Basically that the people of Ferguson have a right to be skeptical and upset that an unarmed man was killed and the police/justice system have not made it clear why.

By descending into discussions about a victims past, the importance of jay walking, etc you look passed the basic principles of what makes this nation and its justice system great. Every citizen is innocent until proven guilty and we need to know what made Brown so guilty that he was dealt the ultimate punishment. As people on the other side have pointed out, police make mistakes, so I don't think we can just take their word for it, especially in this scenario.

[BBC 08]

Who wants to help me do a remake of Do the Right Thing but set in present day Ferguson?

[SemajParlor]

NYPD already submitted their audition tape when they strangled Eric Garner to death a la Radio Raheem.

[waggy]

Who wants to help me do a remake of Do the Right Thing but set in present day Ferguson?


A movie which puts forth the idea that rioting is an intelligent response.

Rioting is not an intelligent response. Rioting is revenge, retaliation, retribution.

If I say genocide is an intelligent response, does that make it so?

[Kahns Krazy]

I saw that movie in the now-gone "Cincinnati" theater, which was really the Bond Hill theater, on the weekend it opened in a packed house. That was not my most comfortable movie watching experience.

[Smails]

I saw that movie in the now-gone "Cincinnati" theater, which was really the Bond Hill theater, on the weekend it opened in a packed house. That was not my most comfortable movie watching experience.

Reminds me of the time when me and a few of my buddies went to see Boyz in the hood expecting a bad ass gangsta movie. Walk in to the theatre expecting a shoot em up, and leave like a sniffling 5 year old. Damn you Ricky...you gott zig zag when you run!

[xu82]

Rioting is not an intelligent response. Rioting is revenge, retaliation, retribution.

And sometimes rioting is just an easy way to get free stuff.
An intelligent response is the people who preach peace and getting answers before torching the city.

[bobbiemcgee]

And sometimes rioting is just an easy way to get free stuff.
An intelligent response is the people who preach peach and getting answers before torching the city.

Preaching peach in Ga. is pretty normal.

[xu82]

Preaching peach in Ga. is pretty normal.

Hey, it's on my license plate! (And I was only one letter off)
I suspect preaching peace is getting more NORML in Co. Again, only one letter, and it may sound like "hey dude, chill".
My wife is very proud of her daiquiri making prowess, but that's for another time.

[waggy]

I didn't know there was such a thing, but peach daiquiri's sound like a fine solution.

[xu82]

I didn't know there was such a thing, but peach daiquiri's sound like a fine solution.

We've got clay, we make bricks. We have peaches, what the hell... that's a daiquiri!
(Vidalia onions, not so much.)

[MHettel]

That's not true. My stance since the beginning is that we don't know and that the police need to be transparent enough so we do. They should be able to prove that the use of lethal force was necessary beyond a reasonable doubt and they've failed to do that thus far. Basically that the people of Ferguson have a right to be skeptical and upset that an unarmed man was killed and the police/justice system have not made it clear why.

By descending into discussions about a victims past, the importance of jay walking, etc you look passed the basic principles of what makes this nation and its justice system great. Every citizen is innocent until proven guilty and we need to know what made Brown so guilty that he was dealt the ultimate punishment. As people on the other side have pointed out, police make mistakes, so I don't think we can just take their word for it, especially in this scenario.

I dont understand the "thus far" part. You act like you understand the judicial process, but you want kind of a temporary verdict even though the investigation may not be complete.

Of course the court of public opinion weighs in with it's meaningless less verdict almost simultaneously when stuff like this occurs. But you are upset that the system itself has not declared guilt?

That's just never going to happen.

[blobfan]

That's not true. My stance since the beginning is that we don't know and that the police need to be transparent enough so we do. They should be able to prove that the use of lethal force was necessary beyond a reasonable doubt and they've failed to do that thus far. Basically that the people of Ferguson have a right to be skeptical and upset that an unarmed man was killed and the police/justice system have not made it clear why.

By descending into discussions about a victims past, the importance of jay walking, etc you look passed the basic principles of what makes this nation and its justice system great. Every citizen is innocent until proven guilty and we need to know what made Brown so guilty that he was dealt the ultimate punishment. As people on the other side have pointed out, police make mistakes, so I don't think we can just take their word for it, especially in this scenario.
That may well be what your stance has been in your head but it isn't coming through in your posts. I just can't think of a single post or comment you've made in this thread suggesting you are willing to entertain evidence showing the officer isn't guilty.

[fellahmuskie]

This is the best article I've read on the whole situation so far: Black and Blue: Officer Sees Both Sides in the Michael Brown Shooting (http://www.theroot.com/articles/culture/2014/08/black_officer_sees_both_sides_in_michael_brown_sho oting.html). Female black officer who works in a high-crime American city shares her perspective.

[drudy23]

This is the best article I've read on the whole situation so far: Black and Blue: Officer Sees Both Sides in the Michael Brown Shooting (http://www.theroot.com/articles/culture/2014/08/black_officer_sees_both_sides_in_michael_brown_sho oting.html). Female black officer who works in a high-crime American city shares her perspective.

Nothing that hasn't been said on this thread already....and if she wants a change, how about starting with not being anonymous.

[muskienick]

Nothing that hasn't been said on this thread already....and if she wants a change, how about starting with not being anonymous.

If you knew her name, would it make any difference? Even if you DID know her name, how would that affect the fact that a female black police officer was able to see both sides of the sad story of Ferguson, MO? Also, how many female black Police officers post to this board? That's what makes what she wrote most important.

Lastly, my guess is that many in her own Precinct are aware of (or at least suspect) that she was responsible for what was written. One does not work with others in such close contact and in such stressful circumstances without getting to know intimately their feelings and thinking on such a subject. To the rest of us, her name would mean nothing.

[Pete Delkus]

Suge Knight shot at Pre VMA party and in intensive care...here comes more rioting, marching and civic "leaders".

[SemajParlor]

Suge Knight shot at Pre VMA party and in intensive care...here comes more rioting, marching and civic "leaders".

You have an incredible pulse on all walks of life within society. Keep up the good work!

[Pete Delkus]

You have an incredible pulse on all walks of life within society. Keep up the good work!

If you are replying knowing I was tongue-in-cheek, making a point that gun violence in the rap community is either swept under the rug, or hypocritically celebrated, then fine.

However, I have a feeling you thought I was being serious.

[boozehound]

That's not true. My stance since the beginning is that we don't know and that the police need to be transparent enough so we do. They should be able to prove that the use of lethal force was necessary beyond a reasonable doubt and they've failed to do that thus far. Basically that the people of Ferguson have a right to be skeptical and upset that an unarmed man was killed and the police/justice system have not made it clear why.

By descending into discussions about a victims past, the importance of jay walking, etc you look passed the basic principles of what makes this nation and its justice system great. Every citizen is innocent until proven guilty and we need to know what made Brown so guilty that he was dealt the ultimate punishment. As people on the other side have pointed out, police make mistakes, so I don't think we can just take their word for it, especially in this scenario.

I'm not sure that is the burden of proof they have to meet. In fact I'm relatively certain it isn't it, although somebody more familiar with police procedure can correct me if I am wrong. 'Beyond a reasonable doubt' is a very high standard of proof to require from Police when using deadly force.

I do think that the discussions about the victim's past are valid when we discuss the scenario to the extent that people's past behavior is often a predictor of their future behavior. It's not always right, but it's the way it is. I'm going to give the cop much more of the benefit of the doubt if I find out that Brown has a significant criminal history than I am if he has a competely clean record. That's just the way the world works.

Cops have a tough job, especially in dangerous areas, and I sympathize with that. When interacting with the police people need to keep that in mind. If a cop tells me to do something, I'm going to do it.

[Snipe]

If a White policeman shot Suge Knight, then Katie bar the door.

I say that because White people are racist.

I can prove this too.

TrayMom™