Rioting in STL

[DC Muskie]

Not the perpetual consistent kind that leads to these results.

You can play black and white all you want (not race, but spectrum)...we all know (including you), it's goes deeper. People that can think can articulate this position. You are not articulate. I'll let you infer the rest.

I'm not articulate?

/channeling my inner 87

STOP INSULTING ME!

[waggy]

So there is not violence in white communities?


Black communities are much more violent. The stats you provided show it.

[DC Muskie]

Beyond the rioting, I am having major concerns with the response of the police, especially in relation to the media covering Ferguson. There's just too many videos out there of the police firing tear gas and going way too far towards groups of people who are appearing to be peaceful. The flight restrictions, the "roughing up" of some of the media, arresting people wholesale, these things are red flags for me. Thank goodness the governor is finally removing the St. Louis county police from the scene. Perhaps that will calm the situation.

In all seriousness, I'm glad to see the governor finally stepping in and trying to do something. Needless to say my hope is that this will calm down.

[DC Muskie]

Black communities are much more violent. The stats you provided show it.

That wasn't the question.

You really need to work on your reading waggy.

[waggy]

That wasn't the question.

You really need to work on your reading waggy.


No, you just don't like the answer.

[DC Muskie]

No, you just don't like the answer.

I don;t think you liked the question, which is why you didn't answer it.

It's pretty simple. Is there not violence in white communities?

[Pete Delkus]

When it comes to matters of life and death these exceptions like 'it's a bad neighborhood' 'they don't respect authority' are just pure bull shit. If you don't have what it takes to handle yourself as a police officer, then pick a new profession. I know I couldn't do it. So I don't.

Sure there is sometimes a violent culture in poor neighborhoods, but there can also be a violent culture in police departments. There is also stereotyping both ways about the other's intentions, with very little mutual trust or respect. The main difference is, when a police officer is wrongly killed, there is a government backing them. When a police officer wrongly kills, it is not always apparent that fairness is being applied from the police or the justice system.

...but you can tell people what to do.

Line of the year. I think this sums up every lefty stance in the US...

Do what I say - not as I do.

[XU 87]

I don;t think you liked the question, which is why you didn't answer it.

It's pretty simple. Is there not violence in white communities?

There is, but statistically it's not nearly as prevalent as black communities. Are you disputing that?

[waggy]

I don;t think you liked the question, which is why you didn't answer it.

It's pretty simple. Is there not violence in white communities?


Of course there is, but you attempted to paint them as more violent than black communities, and that's not ANYWHERE NEAR TRUTHFUL.

[DC Muskie]

Of course there is, but you attempted to paint them as more violent than black communities, and that's not ANYWHERE NEAR TRUTHFUL.

Well whites commit more crimes don't they?

[xavierj]

I literally laughed out loud when I saw this posted. By this logic, police and ambulances are purposely showing up late to murder scenes and life saving situations when black on black crimes are suspected. That's um... concerning.

It is concerning but there is no other way to explain it. I was a witness to
It along with about 8 other people who work with me. I had to ask questions. We are about three blocks from All of the hospitals in Clifton. You would think they would have been there in less than 5 minutes. If happened at 10:03 and the first officer on the scene arrived at around 10:25.

[DC Muskie]

It is concerning but there is no other way to explain it. I was a witness to
It along with about 8 other people who work with me. I had to ask questions. We are about three blocks from All of the hospitals in Clifton. You would think they would have been there in less than 5 minutes. If happened at 10:03 and the first officer on the scene arrived at around 10:25.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CPNK0VspQ0M

[waggy]

Well whites commit more crimes don't they?

You can't figure out solutions to the problem if you can't keep and honest open mind. Black communities are more dangerous DC. That's a fact. There are more killers in black communities DC. That's a fact. Do you really want to do something about that, or do you want to bury your head in the sand, blame whites, say whites are as equally as bad, or any other form of deflection you can conjure?

[GoMuskies]

Is the stronger correlation between race and violent crime or between income level (or lack thereof) and violent crime?

[waggy]

Is the stronger correlation between race and violent crime or between income level (or lack thereof) and violent crime?


The DOJ and FBI are racists.


Just pointing out the irony.

[SemajParlor]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CPNK0VspQ0M

Haha literally had this embedded and ready to click reply.

[DC Muskie]

You can't figure out solutions to the problem if you can't keep and honest open mind. Black communities are more dangerous DC. That's a fact. There are more killers in black communities DC. That's a fact. Do you really want to do something about that, or do you want to bury your head in the sand, blame whites, say whites are as equally as bad, or any other form of deflection you can conjure?

So all the white killers live in black neighborhoods?

Maybe I should suggest that almost all mass murders are white. If you think about the recent mass shooting over the last few years, and the coverage they have received, that would be a reasonable assumption correct? And then based on that assumption when a mass shooting comes up (and it will again) should I focus my outrage on some other white crimes that happen? Like rape on college campuses? I'm sure more white guys do that, but I'm not sure, but hey it doesn't matter...

But the fact is whites make up less than half of the mass murders year after year. But it's easy in this day and age to ignore facts, or base stats with percentages, or think that some but not all poor people are lazy and black communities are more dangerous, because hey they are!

[waggy]

So all the white killers live in black neighborhoods?

Maybe I should suggest that almost all mass murders are white. If you think about the recent mass shooting over the last few years, and the coverage they have received, that would be a reasonable assumption correct? And then based on that assumption when a mass shooting comes up (and it will again) should I focus my outrage on some other white crimes that happen? Like rape on college campuses? I'm sure more white guys do that, but I'm not sure, but hey it doesn't matter...

But the fact is whites make up half of the mass murders year after year. But it's easy in this day and age to ignore facts, or base stats with percentages, or think that some but not all poor people are lazy and black communities are more dangerous, because hey they are!


When other posters brought up what was going on in other neighborhoods, you said it had nothing to do with the topic at hand. Then you turn around and cite national statistics. Go figure.

Mass murders are different subject than neighborhood and/or national crime stats.

There are bad white people DC. I concede that. There are bad cops. Even white ones. I concede that. But black neighborhoods are the most dangerous places in this country.

[Xville]

So all the white killers live in black neighborhoods?

Maybe I should suggest that almost all mass murders are white. If you think about the recent mass shooting over the last few years, and the coverage they have received, that would be a reasonable assumption correct? And then based on that assumption when a mass shooting comes up (and it will again) should I focus my outrage on some other white crimes that happen? Like rape on college campuses? I'm sure more white guys do that, but I'm not sure, but hey it doesn't matter...

But the fact is whites make up less than half of the mass murders year after year. But it's easy in this day and age to ignore facts, or base stats with percentages, or think that some but not all poor people are lazy and black communities are more dangerous, because hey they are!

Some poor people are lazy and that is why they are poor. That is just another fact you choose to ignore.

[DC Muskie]

When other posters brought up what was going on in other neighborhoods, you said it had nothing to do with the topic at hand. Then you turn around and cite national statistics. Go figure.

Go figure what exactly? I was debunking the idea of black and black crime and the nonsense that surrounds not being more outraged about it, when it comes to the current situation.


Mass murders are different subject than neighborhood and/or national crime stats.

Okay. Not sure how they are so different, killing is killing. But my point was about perception and how misplaced that perception can be.


There are bad white people DC. I concede that. There are bad cops. Even white ones. I concede that. But black neighborhoods are the most dangerous places in this country.

You should come out to some of the Hispanic neighborhoods. They will grab you right off the street and sexually assault you out here. And in some places chop your hands off. Dangerous places.

[DC Muskie]

Some poor people are lazy and that is why they are poor. That is just another fact you choose to ignore.

Oh I don't ignore them, I just haven't met any. I'm also not sure what you me by "some" then again you can't explain that either. Of course no one comes up to me like they do to you and ask me to pay for their welfare, healthcare, babies and whatnot.

That still creeps me out by the way.

[paulxu]

Is the stronger correlation between race and violent crime or between income level (or lack thereof) and violent crime?

It took 7 pages, but finally someone posted a question that makes more sense than 3/4ths of this entire thread.

Thanks Go.

[Xville]

Oh I don't ignore them, I just haven't met any. I'm also not sure what you me by "some" then again you can't explain that either. Of course no one comes up to me like they do to you and ask me to pay for their welfare, healthcare, babies and whatnot.

That still creeps me out by the way.

They don't come up to me. They don't have to. Uncle Sam comes and takes it from me every two weeks

[DC Muskie]

They don't come up to me. They don't have to. Their uncle Sam comes and takes it from me every two weeks

OOOHHHHHH and here I thought people were coming up to you and asking you to fork over your money. I was totally confused because that's the way you portrayed it. But what you meant is, no one actually comes up to you, it's just the taxes that you pay and that goes to the lazy poor people.

Thanks for correcting me on this. No wonder you have no idea how much "some" is, your anger is like three times removed from any actual contact with a human being who is poor!

I'll be better next time not to take you so literally. Although it does make me wonder if you actually grew up in the city of St. Louis. Maybe you mean like right next door, or a county over. Makes no difference actually.

[blobfan]

Is the stronger correlation between race and violent crime or between income level (or lack thereof) and violent crime?

Violent crime or murder? Because it seems when we talk about shootings that's what we are talking about. I'll have to see if I can find where I saw the stat recently but I think murder correlates more closely to race, or at least urban living which has a race component. Or maybe it's gun crimes. Does anyone else remember seeing that? I think it was during the Trayvon Martin trial and would have been CNN or NY Times.

[bobbiemcgee]

I'm pretty worried about Asian crime. They're up to 4.8% of the population and 1.8% of the people in jail. Scary. Hope they don't burn down Chinatown. Oh, that probably wouldn't happen cuz the people that work there actually care about it.

[PM Thor]

I saw a black teenager get shot last year outside of our store. He was shot by another black teenager. You know how long it took for the police and ambulance to show up? 20 minutes. You want to know why? Because they don't want to have to defend themselves and deal with the aftermath. They let the guys who shoot move on because of crap like this. You know another thing, this story was not covered by one person in the media. This has nothing to do with he riots in St. Louis but this is how riots are now avoided in Cincinnati.


It is concerning but there is no other way to explain it. I was a witness to
It along with about 8 other people who work with me. I had to ask questions. We are about three blocks from All of the hospitals in Clifton. You would think they would have been there in less than 5 minutes. If happened at 10:03 and the first officer on the scene arrived at around 10:25.

Um, I'm just going to call BS all around on this one. Cops LOVE to make shooting runs. At least the Cops that I work with every day do. They don't duck runs, especially if a run comes in for a shooter on scene. Also, and I don't mean any offense to you J, but Cincy police are running way shorthanded, most new beat Cops are moving to District 3, the West Side, and it happens almost daily where there are no units available in the entire city. Yes, I said the entire city. As for why the ambulance (you know, the ambulance that I ride every few tours) might take time. We don't go into a scene that hasn't been cleared by police. No way, no day do we just go onto a shooting scene without police clearing it. And no, we don't duck those runs either, they are the most interesting runs. (when a shooting run comes in, it comes in usually like this "Engine __, Medic __, respond to _____ for a shooting, male shot, unknown whereabouts of the shooter" we respond "Staging in quarters until police clear the scene".) I know you didn't mean to offend me personally with what you wrote, but it is pretty offensive to say that Cincinnati police and firefighters shirk our duty. I take my oath to serve very seriously, and what you wrote flies directly in the face of that. We do not do what you said. It does not happen. Ever. Just to be clear. Ever.

But I ask, what day was this? Give me a street if you could too, I have the ability to go back and look up the run and it's number, and I can give you the actual run times for it. (It might take a couple of days, but it ain't hard to get through public records)

EDIT. And you know why it doesn't get covered by the media? Not because of some grand conspiracy theory of trying to stop riots, it's because there are NUMEROUS shootings in the city every day. Hell, Cincy is averaging 7 heroin overdoses a day, but that doesn't make the news either. Why? Because this stuff is so common it's just white noise now and the media can't report the same thing day in, day out.

[Xville]

OOOHHHHHH and here I thought people were coming up to you and asking you to fork over your money. I was totally confused because that's the way you portrayed it. But what you meant is, no one actually comes up to you, it's just the taxes that you pay and that goes to the lazy poor people.

Thanks for correcting me on this. No wonder you have no idea how much "some" is, your anger is like three times removed from any actual contact with a human being who is poor!

I'll be better next time not to take you so literally. Although it does make me wonder if you actually grew up in the city of St. Louis. Maybe you mean like right next door, or a county over. Makes no difference actually.
Yep some of my taxes do and yep some poor people are lazy and is why they are poor. Yep I grew up in st. Louis city. I am so glad you have that reading comprehension thing down now...good job!

[DC Muskie]

Violent crime or murder? Because it seems when we talk about shootings that's what we are talking about. I'll have to see if I can find where I saw the stat recently but I think murder correlates more closely to race, or at least urban living which has a race component. Or maybe it's gun crimes. Does anyone else remember seeing that? I think it was during the Trayvon Martin trial and would have been CNN or NY Times.

I know there is a huge correlation between race and imprisonment. And how races view how punishments should be put out based on those stats. Stanford did a study a few years ago.

I'm sure there are studies based on income level. But the Trayvon story really didn't work the poor angle that much IIRC. I'll have to look around.

[DC Muskie]

Yep some of my taxes do and yep some poor people are lazy and is why they are poor. Yep I grew up in st. Louis city. I am so glad you have that reading comprehension thing down now...good job!

Am I impressed with your ability to be pissed off about things that you really can't explain very well.

Xville: "Man I am pissed that SOME of my taxes go to SOME lazy poor people!"

Reality: "It's probably less than .000000000000000001%"

Xville: "ARGGGGGGG!"

[Xville]

Am I impressed with your ability to be pissed off about things that you really can't explain very well.

Xville: "Man I am pissed that SOME of my taxes go to SOME lazy poor people!"

Reality: "It's probably less than .000000000000000001%"

Xville: "ARGGGGGGG!"

There u go making up facts again...plus the percentage doesn't matter..if it is a penny of a penny it is still wrong.

[OH.X.MI]

There u go making up facts again...plus the percentage doesn't matter..if it is a penny of a penny it is still wrong.

Men and Women for others huh?

[DC Muskie]

There u go making up facts again...plus the percentage doesn't matter..if it is a penny of a penny it is still wrong.

What facts am I making up exactly? The one where my personal experience has never lead me to work with any poor person I would consider "lazy?"

I'm just enjoying how you are complaining about something with no support based on facts. You don't want to lump all poor people into the lazy category, just some of them. And even then it doesn't seem to matter to you, because any percentage of a penny is wrong.

I'd like to ask you something. Now just for kicks, would you say there are lazy people who aren't poor? I have certainly met those. In my last job there were easily about 5 people out of 100 who I would consider lazy. My current job there are much less. In fact I really can't think of one.

Now these five lazy fully employed people who have taxes taken out to pay for lazy poor people, don't you think that negates your hard working salary? You who have pulled yourself out off the mean streets of St. Louis, and have to pay even a penny to lazy poor people, do you feel at least a little better knowing that there are lazy people paying for other lazy people?

Just a thought. Curious as to yours since it is fascinating on how you view laziness.

[DC Muskie]

Men and Women for others huh?

They are lazy asking for handouts. The poor people who get the same handouts are fine.

You can probably find all of this in the Gospel of John, since that is the one I read the least.

[Pete Delkus]

Men and Women for others huh?

"Can you hand me that ax so I can strike you"
"Awww...NO!"
"Man for others huh?"

"Please can I borrow another $100 for some Alaskan Thunder Bud?"
"Awww...No!"
"Man for others huh?"

"Can we please continue playing as the US Bank arena, cause we can't beat you at Cintas"
"Awww...No!"
"Man for others huh?"

Doesn't work that way...

[OH.X.MI]

"Can you hand me that ax so I can strike you"
"Awww...NO!"
"Man for others huh?"

"Please can I borrow another $100 for some Alaskan Thunder Bud?"
"Awww...No!"
"Man for others huh?"

"Can we please continue playing as the US Bank arena, cause we can't beat you at Cintas"
"Awww...No!"
"Man for others huh?"

Doesn't work that way...

Haha that is just so ridiculous I can't even respond.

[DC Muskie]

"Can you hand me that ax so I can strike you"
"Awww...NO!"
"Man for others huh?"

"Please can I borrow another $100 for some Alaskan Thunder Bud?"
"Awww...No!"
"Man for others huh?"

"Can we please continue playing as the US Bank arena, cause we can't beat you at Cintas"
"Awww...No!"
"Man for others huh?"

Doesn't work that way...

"Can I have some money to afford some fruit?"
"No way, get off your ass and work for it!"
"Actually I do, but fruit is expensive."

Nice.

[waggy]

It took 7 pages, but finally someone posted a question that makes more sense than 3/4ths of this entire thread.

Thanks Go.


Are there any ideas out there how to change it? Tax the rich, give to the poor? Is that all there is?

[Masterofreality]

Of course the riots are Bush's fault.

Meanwhile , Obama is finding time to play more golf than me, while riots, wars, humanitarian disasters, Putin and pestilence rage.

If Obama was so concerned with race relations, how come he's not on a plane to St. Louis right now? He could quell this in a day, but he's too busy hanging out in Martha's Vineyard with 1 percenters.

Look, I voted for the guy the first time, but not the second. I don't think there has ever been a more disingenuous President, nor one who was more full of BS. What a horrific disappointment.


That's all I'll say about this subject. I don't know enough to comment otherwise.

[DC Muskie]

Of course the riots are Bush's fault.

Meanwhile , Obama is finding time to play more golf than me, while riots, wars, humanitarian disasters, Putin and pestilence rage.

If Obama was so concerned with race relations, how come he's not on a plane to St. Louis right now? He could quell this in a day, but he's too busy hanging out in Martha's Vineyard with 1 percenters.

Look, I voted for the guy the first time, but not the second. I don't think there has ever been a more disingenuous President, nor one who was more full of BS. What a horrific disappointment.


That's all I'll say about this subject. I don't know enough to comment otherwise.

I would argue you don't know enough to comment in the first place.

Someone get MOR back to his rocker. He fell off again.

(You know I say this with love MOR)

[OH.X.MI]

If Obama was so concerned with race relations, how come he's not on a plane to St. Louis right now? He could quell this in a day, but he's too busy hanging out in Martha's Vineyard with 1 percenters.

Look, I voted for the guy the first time, but not the second. I don't think there has ever been a more disingenuous President, nor one who was more full of BS. What a horrific disappointment.

I am a staunch Democrat, or bleeding heart liberal as 87 might say. But I agree 100% with this statement MOR. The President has done nothing to fix the current problem. Nor has he made a serious attempt to rectify the prevailing problems of race/poverty, and an attempt is all I ask for. Disappointing indeed.

[Xville]

Haha that is just so ridiculous I can't even respond.

Ugh forget it

[Masterofreality]

I would argue you don't know enough to comment in the first place. As no one else on this thread does. -MOR

Someone get MOR back to his rocker. He fell off again.

(You know I say this with love MOR)

Nothing but love in the tavern.The only other comment I will make is that it is a tragedy that a man, no matter what race, if unarmed, is dead. The investigation will hopefully yield the truth. But rioting and looting is stupid, inane and ridiculous.

Yeah, that's it. Crap the bed where you sleep. Always a good idea.

[DC Muskie]

Are there any ideas out there how to change it? Tax the rich, give to the poor? Is that all there is?

No that's certainly not the way to help.

We can look at a variety of things. Education, housing, and how we continue as a country to be in the business of incarcerating our people. Especially our black ones.

Personally I hate food bank and food drives. Growing up Catholic and then working for the Church I have had my fill of food drives and food banks. Yes they help certainly, in the short term. But in the long term they don't hope anyone.

And I say this not because of handouts, but because the food these people get is crap. It's mostly canned, filled with sodium and he hand it to a large group of people who can only afford crap that comes fast and fried. The health consequences are incredible.

Is food going to lift people out of poverty? Probably not, but feeding the poor good healthy meals, while working on educating them and providing opportunities to succeed. Taxes certainly can help.

This is a very simplistic argument I realize. But simply taxing more (which I think you are trying to say) and throwing more money, isn't going to help.

[OH.X.MI]

Mack is on 1530 with Mo Egger by the way!

[waggy]

We can look at a variety of things. Education, housing, and how we continue as a country to be in the business of incarcerating our people. Especially our black ones.


Well if people are terrorizing their own neighborhoods, making them unsafe places, then they have go away. You can't have investment in a community, and you can't expect property values to stabalize or actually go up, if you have people making it a scary place to live.

[DC Muskie]

Well if people are terrorizing their own neighborhoods, making them unsafe places, then they have go away. You can't have investment in a community, and you can't expect property values to stabalize or actually go up, if you have people making it a scary place to live.

Yes I agree with that in a 10,000 feet view.

I think the response by the police in full camouflage tends to incite more negative response from people.

Good move so far by removing the police and shift in approach on this front. My hope is there are people who are able to do the same on the other side.

[waggy]

And btw, I love sodium.

[DC Muskie]

And btw, I love sodium.

So do I. But most people don't know how much is too much.

Another quick point on this. People for the most part don't know how to cook. And this is coming from someone with minimal cooking ability. And you hand them sodium filled food all the time, that's what they are going to cook and not limit those and mix in fresh foods, because they can't afford it and those foods are hardly donated.

[waggy]

I wonder if a persons homicidal tendencies are increased more by too much sodium, or too little sodium...

[DC Muskie]

I wonder if a persons homicidal tendencies are increased more by too much sodium, or too little sodium...

We need more taxes to come up the stats, so that we can skew them appropriately.

[waggy]

No, it's definitely too little sodium. Debunking your argument. Again!

[X-band '01]

Are there any ideas out there how to change it? Tax the rich, give to the poor? Is that all there is?

More excise taxes? Fair taxes? The US managed to survive for about 100 years before income taxes were added as the 16th amendment.


Of course the riots are Bush's fault.

Meanwhile , Obama is finding time to play more golf than me, while riots, wars, humanitarian disasters, Putin and pestilence rage.

If Obama was so concerned with race relations, how come he's not on a plane to St. Louis right now? He could quell this in a day, but he's too busy hanging out in Martha's Vineyard with 1 percenters.

Look, I voted for the guy the first time, but not the second. I don't think there has ever been a more disingenuous President, nor one who was more full of BS. What a horrific disappointment.


That's all I'll say about this subject. I don't know enough to comment otherwise.

As bad as the riots are (and also widespread flooding that affected places like Detroit and Long Island in the past week), it's not on the same level as Katrina was when Bush had his infamous vacation out in Texas. He can't be in DC, Missouri, Michigan, NY, Russia and Israel at the same time. I'm no happier with Obama in office than other posters on here, but I think he's handled this in the press and behind the scenes as well as could be expected. If the Missouri State Polics and/or National Guard can't control the situation any further in the next couple of days, then the ball would be in Obama's court

[X-band '01]

Yes I agree with that in a 10,000 feet view.

I think the response by the police in full camouflage tends to incite more negative response from people.

Good move so far by removing the police and shift in approach on this front. My hope is there are people who are able to do the same on the other side.

I hear Rand Paul has a few things to say about police and camo. Enough to send DC off on another rant.

[waggy]

I thought the statement issued was great. Just a little slow in coming.

[xu82]

So do I. But most people don't know how much is too much.

Another quick point on this. People for the most part don't know how to cook. And this is coming from someone with minimal cooking ability. And you hand them sodium filled food all the time, that's what they are going to cook and not limit those and mix in fresh foods, because they can't afford it and those foods are hardly donated.
Hey, leave my wife out of this! (She would never check this board, I'm safe.)

Fresh food isn't donated because you need stuff with an indefinite shelf life which is, almost by definition, bad for you. Both my kids spent a lot of time volunteering at a food bank. Fresh spinach and bananas are most likely wasted if you drop them off there using the current distribution model where we lived. Preservatives (and salt is one of the original preservatives) are just not good for you. The human body cannot process trans fats - go to the beach and look around for all the proof you'll ever need!

[Filthy Conservative]

No, it's definitely too little sodium. Debunking your argument. Again!

We wouldn't have The Great Sodium Crisis if Mike Bloomberg was prez. I'm tired of people like Snipe who say "let them eat Ramen noodles."
Personally I grow kale in my garden as an homage to our great First Lady. The kale is next to my pink flamingos and Bob Huggins yard gnome.

Sent from my M886 using Tapatalk 2

[DC Muskie]

Hey, leave my wife out of this! (She would never check this board, I'm safe.)

Fresh food isn't donated because you need stuff with an indefinite shelf life which is, almost by definition, bad for you. Both my kids spent a lot of time volunteering at a food bank. Fresh spinach and bananas are most likely wasted if you drop them off there using the current distribution model where we lived. Preservatives (and salt is one of the original preservatives) are just not good for you. The human body cannot process trans fats - go to the beach and look around for all the proof you'll ever need!

That's very true, but if you coordinate the deliveries with viability then the problem should be solved. And get rid of the sugary cereal.

[GoMuskies]

get rid of the sugary cereal.

Why can't poor people have Cocoa Puffs?!? You, sir, are a ruthless tyrant!

[waggy]

Cocoa Puffs?!


Racist.

[Filthy Conservative]

Also, Nuts has a garden where he grows his own, uh, homeopathic medicine.

Sent from my M886 using Tapatalk 2

[fellahmuskie]

Regardless of who's to blame for shit and what's supposed to be done, I'm encouraged after reading this thread that everyone cares about what's happening and wants America to be a better place. I sure as hell don't know how to accomplish that, but hopefully everyone does a little bit in that direction and it makes a difference (as opposed to just waiting for the politicians to figure it out).

[X-band '01]

The kale is next to my pink flamingos and Bob Huggins yard gnome.

Sent from my M886 using Tapatalk 2

This is 2014 - can't you at least get a Mick Cronin garden gnome as well?


Also, Nuts has a garden where he grows his own, uh, homeopathic medicine.

Sent from my M886 using Tapatalk 2

Nuts has a vacation home in Colorado?

[GuyFawkes38]

I am a staunch Democrat, or bleeding heart liberal as 87 might say. But I agree 100% with this statement MOR. The President has done nothing to fix the current problem. Nor has he made a serious attempt to rectify the prevailing problems of race/poverty, and an attempt is all I ask for. Disappointing indeed.

Even if he arrived in STL with the best intentions, Obama would still come across as Al Sharpton or Jesse Jackson. His presence would add some unhealthy excitement.

I think Obama's shown a healthy restraint when it comes to adressing race. He isn't Jesus.

[STL_XUfan]

What a difference a day (and a change of police force) makes. Seems that the highway patrol has brought calm to the situation. Hopefully it holds.

[NY44]

...but you can tell people what to do.

Line of the year. I think this sums up every lefty stance in the US...

Do what I say - not as I do.

I guess it's been a pretty weak year for lines then.

Do as I do actually. I don't go around shooting people for walking in the street.

How is this still an issue? Police should not kill unarmed people who do not pose an obvious threat to them or anyone else. There is no gray area here. If the use of deadly force is debatable at all, then it shouldn't be used. I think that's a pretty easy rule. He was running away when he was killed. This is a fact that has been confirmed by both sides of the fence.

I don't know what rules you people live by, but in my world, killing is wrong in almost every case. Self-defense killing is acceptable when a loss of life is inevitable. The Bible says thou shalt not kill. It doesn't say, Thou shalt not kill, unless the guy tried to steal your gun and you're a police officer in a rough area and these kids just don't have any respect for authority now-a-days and maybe you're having a bad day.

[drudy23]

I guess it's been a pretty weak year for lines then.

Do as I do actually. I don't go around shooting people for walking in the street.

How is this still an issue? Police should not kill unarmed people who do not pose an obvious threat to them or anyone else. There is no gray area here. If the use of deadly force is debatable at all, then it shouldn't be used. I think that's a pretty easy rule. He was running away when he was killed. This is a fact that has been confirmed by both sides of the fence.

I don't know what rules you people live by, but in my world, killing is wrong in almost every case. Self-defense killing is acceptable when a loss of life is inevitable. The Bible says thou shalt not kill. It doesn't say, Thou shalt not kill, unless the guy tried to steal your gun and you're a police officer in a rough area and these kids just don't have any respect for authority now-a-days and maybe you're having a bad day.

But this has zero context. It's not that black and white. If the cop drove 250 miles away, entered a city for the first time, saw two guys walking down the street, pulled them over, and shot the kid....then yes, you're right. He simply just drove up to them and shot them.

This is a town with a pattern of violence and race issues with police. These type of things likely happen every night in such a volatile environment. Once this type of thing becomes pervasive, like it does in many violent, drug-infested urban areas, these type of things are inevitable. Like I said, spend a month walking the beat where this all went down. I'm guessing you'd be pretty quick to pull your gun out when even the smallest conversation began to escalate. Do you honestly think this guy said "I'm going to kill a Black kid today?" I mean really, that's just stupid.

These areas are war zones, plain and simple. They battle for gang and drug turf, and will kill to keep it with no care for anyone in their way. Yes, he likely didn't follow "procedure", but I can understand how this happens, and will continue to happen, in communities that have no respect for anything. You say "I think that's a pretty easy rule"...yeah right. One month.

[DC Muskie]

One thing Drudy is right on, it is a war zone. Look at what the police brought to a protest. Snipers, tanks, full camouflage.

That sure helps. No way the police escalate anything, it's all the people that live in those drug-infested urban areas.

Yeah right.

[XU 87]

How is this still an issue? Police should not kill unarmed people who do not pose an obvious threat to them or anyone else. There is no gray area here. If the use of deadly force is debatable at all, then it shouldn't be used. I think that's a pretty easy rule.

In instances where a police officer has to make a split second life or death decision, the use of deadly force can debatable. And even if debatable, it can still be proper.

[Xville]

Here is an interesting question to think about...if the officer happened to be black, would what happened even be news? Would anyone outside of the st. louis area even know about it? Heck would anyone outside of Ferguson know about it? The only thing that changed is the color of the officer's skin. I mean presumably "a crime" had still been committed right? I doubt there would be all this protesting and looting then.

[X-band '01]

It might not have racial undertones, but then you'd still have the problem of a police officer shooting an unarmed person with or without provocation. Given the social media outlets, there's no chance in hell it could completely fly under the radar.

[Kahns Krazy]

I can find plenty of ridiculous stats too...young black men commit 50% of the murders in the United states and are 14 times more likely to murder than a young white male. That is from a time article in 2013..you know what it proves? About as much as your ridiculous stat.


Uh, how is that a ridiculous stat that proves nothing? That sounds shocking and like evidence of a real problem/



Drudy, do you feel safe in white neighborhoods?

Especially when you considering "with respect to aggravated assault, whites led blacks 2-1 in arrests; in forcible-rape cases, whites led all racial and ethnic groups by more than 2-1. And in larceny theft, whites led blacks, again, more than 2-1." (DOJ stats)

You are surprised there is not not more police and black violence? Wow.

White drug crime and sexual assault are real problems.


So all the white killers live in black neighborhoods?

Maybe I should suggest that almost all mass murders are white. If you think about the recent mass shooting over the last few years, and the coverage they have received, that would be a reasonable assumption correct? And then based on that assumption when a mass shooting comes up (and it will again) should I focus my outrage on some other white crimes that happen? Like rape on college campuses? I'm sure more white guys do that, but I'm not sure, but hey it doesn't matter...

But the fact is whites make up less than half of the mass murders year after year. But it's easy in this day and age to ignore facts, or base stats with percentages, or think that some but not all poor people are lazy and black communities are more dangerous, because hey they are!


Is that really true? I would have guessed that 80%+ mass murderers where white. As someone once said, white people are crazy.

"Can I have some money to afford some fruit?"
"No way, get off your ass and work for it!"
"Actually I do, but fruit is expensive."

Nice.
Not to derail the conversation here, but I think one of the biggest problems is that many people who are willing to help have had an experience that goes more like
"Can I have some money to afford some fruit?"
"No, but here is a fresh apple!"
"F**k that, I can't buy booze with an apple."

I know that panhandlers are not representative of the poor population in general, but to many people, they are the face of it, and they do a horrible job representing the poor. I think what Streetvibes does for the poor community is a very positive thing.

[toledodan]

Uh, how is that a ridiculous stat that proves nothing? That sounds shocking and like evidence of a real problem/




White drug crime and sexual assault are real problems.




Is that really true? I would have guessed that 80%+ mass murderers where white. As someone once said, white people are crazy.

Not to derail the conversation here, but I think one of the biggest problems is that many people who are willing to help have had an experience that goes more like
"Can I have some money to afford some fruit?"
"No, but here is a fresh apple!"
"F**k that, I can't buy booze with an apple."

I know that panhandlers are not representative of the poor population in general, but to many people, they are the face of it, and they do a horrible job representing the poor. I think what Streetvibes does for the poor community is a very positive thing.

funny you say that. going to atlanta for the xavier/duke game in 2004 i ran into a similar situation in tenn. we were at an arby's and a guy came up to my table to ask for a few bucks to eat. i pulled out a couple of bucks out of my pocket(not my wallet)and gave it to him. i be darned if instead of getting a sandwich he walked out the door and went across the street to a gas station/liquor store. i haven't given a penny since.

[nuts4xu]

funny you say that. going to atlanta for the xavier/duke game in 2004 i ran into a similar situation in tenn. we were at an arby's and a guy came up to my table to ask for a few bucks to eat. i pulled out a couple of bucks out of my pocket(not my wallet)and gave it to him. i be darned if instead of getting a sandwich he walked out the door and went across the street to a gas station/liquor store. i haven't given a penny since.

I expect the people I give money to use it for booze or drugs. I am a salesman, and sometimes have to say certain things that may stretch the truth to convince my customers to give me what I need. So I get it. People would be less likely to give money to a panhandler who was honest and asked for money to buy a pint of wine.

The panhandlers are often times mentally ill or strung out on hard core drugs. If a couple of my bucks allows them to get a 40 oz, to help them fight of DT's, or to cop buzz to brighten their day, then I don't mind being that ray of sunshine in the lives of these crack heads.

I understand why some people think I am just enabling the panhandler, or why some like Toledodan wouldn't be interested in handing out money for dude to catch a buzz. I used to be the same way. Now I kind of see it from the street person's view, and would probably use the same tactics to get my booze money if I were them.

[Kahns Krazy]

Exactly my point from both sides. Panhandlers need booze. Unfortunately, they are what many people's image of the homeless or poor are all like.

I remember a few years back when the homeless that were living under Fort Washington Way broke into Seafood Fest at Sawyer point overnight and stole something like 4 cases of Jack Daniels Cocktails and 2 cases of salmon filets. When the cops found them in the morning, there were 4 empty cases of booze and 2 cases of untouched, spoiled salmon filets.

Unfortunately, those are the stories that make the newspaper. I'm quite sure on that same day, someone who had been homeless and receiving support from a social service achieved a major breakthrough - got a job, got their own place, graduated high school, etc. It happens every day among the majority of poor people who aren't panhandling.

[GoMuskies]

Geez, Brown was friggin huge.

http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/michael-brown-shooting/ferguson-chief-names-darren-wilson-cop-who-shot-michael-brown-n181326

[toledodan]

i was more surprised that he actually walked into the arby's and to my table. it really caught me off guard and i didn't want a scene with my wife and daughter. my wife(rip) gave me hell for giving the money knowing what he was going to do. i gave the benefit of doubt and learned. i don't fault anybody for giving. i still donate when i can. i'm disabled now and don't work and understand struggles people can have. i just hate thinking my giving is contributing to somebody hurting themselves and not helping.

[MHettel]

One thing Drudy is right on, it is a war zone. Look at what the police brought to a protest. Snipers, tanks, full camouflage.

That sure helps. No way the police escalate anything, it's all the people that live in those drug-infested urban areas.

Yeah right.

So in a community where there is pervasive crime and violence, where armed gang members are known to exist, and this community is gearing up to make a stand against what they perceive as an injustice, and you think the cops should show up with whistles and bullhorns.

Maybe you should be a cop and show up in a situation like that. You'd probably get killed and we'd all be deprived of your incessant bickering about everything on this message board.

[Xville]

Geez, Brown was friggin huge.

http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/michael-brown-shooting/ferguson-chief-names-darren-wilson-cop-who-shot-michael-brown-n181326

What? He robbed a convenience store? No way...he was such a good boy he would never do something like that..the cop was just driving down the street and decided to just start shooting at him. :nono:

[MHettel]

Geez, Brown was friggin huge.

http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/michael-brown-shooting/ferguson-chief-names-darren-wilson-cop-who-shot-michael-brown-n181326

What a softhearted gentle giant. Those surveilance camera's dont prove anything! This was just some innocent horseplay! Hey, he's going to college, remember!

[Xville]

Ryan Dean @RyanDeanKSDK

Police say there was a shooting on Canfield Dr last night in #Ferguson. Female hit in leg. Police couldn't respond because of large crowd.

No one in that neighborhood probably gives a crap about this..they are too busy wanting justice for the good boy that Brown was.

[X-band '01]

What a softhearted gentle giant. Those surveilance camera's dont prove anything! This was just some innocent horseplay! Hey, he's going to college, remember!

Whether that image is doctored or not, it's going to be hard to justify shooting Brown merely over stealing cigars. I'm sure there will be other details coming out as the investigation goes on, but I'm sure the whole point of releasing the officer's name was to provide a little closure and let other officers off the hook.

[Xville]

Whether that image is doctored or not, it's going to be hard to justify shooting Brown merely over stealing cigars. I'm sure there will be other details coming out as the investigation goes on, but I'm sure the whole point of releasing the officer's name was to provide a little closure and let other officers off the hook.

It isn't just stealing cigars...it isn't like he stole the cigars, the cop drives down the street, looks at brown and then just starts firing. He stole the cigars, the cop comes up to him, tells him to get out of the street, sees he matches the description, probably tries to arrest him right there or at least talk to him, Brown says no, it starts getting physical, brown runs away...should the officer still have shot him? Probably not...but this kid kept escalating the problem.

[Kahns Krazy]

Whether that image is doctored or not, it's going to be hard to justify shooting Brown merely over stealing cigars. I'm sure there will be other details coming out as the investigation goes on, but I'm sure the whole point of releasing the officer's name was to provide a little closure and let other officers off the hook.

No, but police involvement with a large man who is a suspect in an aggravated robbery is a far different story than innocent college-bound teen shot in cold blood for walking in the street.

[blobfan]

Whether that image is doctored or not, it's going to be hard to justify shooting Brown merely over stealing cigars. I'm sure there will be other details coming out as the investigation goes on, but I'm sure the whole point of releasing the officer's name was to provide a little closure and let other officers off the hook.
REALLY?!?!?!?!? You're going with the kooks that think it's doctored?

[MHettel]

Whether that image is doctored or not, it's going to be hard to justify shooting Brown merely over stealing cigars. I'm sure there will be other details coming out as the investigation goes on, but I'm sure the whole point of releasing the officer's name was to provide a little closure and let other officers off the hook.

What are you talking about "whether the image is doctored or not."

There are 4 pictures of a giant accosting a clerk at a convience store. Is there something else to be taken from this?


This isn't old footage from months ago. This was RIGHT THEN. Literally the events that led to this kids death.

And he's a victim? Physically accosting a clerk in broad daylight? These are the types of things that happen in Ferguson, Missouri and then we are shocked when a situation escaltes.

The cop has a description of the suspect and tries to deal with it on it's own, but the situation escaltes including at least some level of struggle or physical confrontation.

This kid was 6'4" and looks to be 260+ lbs. "but he was going to college! he was going to do something with his life. he wasn't going to let the circumstances he grew up in hold him back!"

How fitting that he lost his life over some swisher sweets.

This country sucks

[waggy]

And he tried to take the officers gun, allegedly. But that's okay, he didn't get it, so he should be allowed to run away and take hostages, jack a car, whatever. No big deal.

[STL_XUfan]

What are you talking about "whether the image is doctored or not."

There are 4 pictures of a giant accosting a clerk at a convience store. Is there something else to be taken from this?


This isn't old footage from months ago. This was RIGHT THEN. Literally the events that led to this kids death.

And he's a victim? Physically accosting a clerk in broad daylight? These are the types of things that happen in Ferguson, Missouri and then we are shocked when a situation escaltes.

The cop has a description of the suspect and tries to deal with it on it's own, but the situation escaltes including at least some level of struggle or physical confrontation.

This kid was 6'4" and looks to be 260+ lbs. "but he was going to college! he was going to do something with his life. he wasn't going to let the circumstances he grew up in hold him back!"

How fitting that he lost his life over some swisher sweets.

This country sucks

Assault on an officer and 2nd degree assault are both class C felonies. A class C felony in Missouri carries a maximum 7 year prison sentence, not a death sentence.

I don't believe for a second this guy was the "gentle giant" that the protesters are making him out to be, however, the circumstances don't seem to justify killing him.

[SemajParlor]

It isn't just stealing cigars...it isn't like he stole the cigars, the cop drives down the street, looks at brown and then just starts firing. He stole the cigars, the cop comes up to him, tells him to get out of the street, sees he matches the description, probably tries to arrest him right there or at least talk to him, Brown says no, it starts getting physical, brown runs away...should the officer still have shot him? Probably not...but this kid kept escalating the problem.

Big "probably" there.

[waggy]

Assault on an officer and 2nd degree assault are both class C felonies. A class C felony in Missouri carries a maximum 7 year prison sentence, not a death sentence.

I don't believe for a second this guy was the "gentle giant" that the protesters are making him out to be, however, the circumstances don't seem to justify killing him.

He had such a bright Gangsta future too. Such a shame.

[SemajParlor]

Assault on an officer and 2nd degree assault are both class C felonies. A class C felony in Missouri carries a maximum 7 year prison sentence, not a death sentence.

I don't believe for a second this guy was the "gentle giant" that the protesters are making him out to be, however, the circumstances don't seem to justify killing him.

Anyone who's been following this story knows that Brown had been accused of stealing something. I believe the first report was a pack of gum from a convenience store. Hell, articles mentioned that looters had targeted the same convenience store where he was before. This is not new news.

Not sure why people feel this justifies him being murdered execution style all of a sudden.

[casualfan]

Assault on an officer and 2nd degree assault are both class C felonies. A class C felony in Missouri carries a maximum 7 year prison sentence, not a death sentence.

I don't believe for a second this guy was the "gentle giant" that the protesters are making him out to be, however, the circumstances don't seem to justify killing him.

How do you know? Neither you nor I nor anyone else in this thread know what the circumstances are. Unfortunately we'll likely never know.

I'm not saying he should have been shot, but I'm not saying he shouldn't have been either. I don't know.

That's the tough part about a story like this. Maybe it was totally justified. Maybe he was shot in cold blood. Maybe it was something in between.

There's no way to know unless you have all the facts and unless you know something the rest of us haven't been made aware of there's not enough information out there to make a decision either way.

The most telling part will be the autopsy IMHO. I'll be interested to hear how many times he was shot and where he was shot (i.e. in the back or not).

[waggy]

Anyone who's been following this story knows that Brown had been accused of stealing something. I believe the first report was a pack of gum from a convenience store. Hell, articles mentioned that looters had targeted the same convenience store where he was before. This is not new news.

Not sure why people feel this justifies him being murdered execution style all of a sudden.


No one, at least not me, thinks anyone should be murdered execution style. But just because the kid that was with him says that's what happened, doesn't mean that's actually what happened. If the guy actually gave up, ie got down on the ground with his out/up then he shouldn't be shot. But no one knows that is really what happened.

[SemajParlor]

No one, at least not me, thinks anyone should be murdered execution style. But just because the kid that was with him says that's what happened, doesn't mean that's actually what happened. If the guy actually gave up, ie got down on the ground with his out/up then he shouldn't be shot. But know one knows that is really what happened.

How about the 2 other women that gave the exact same story?

[waggy]

How about the 2 other women that gave the exact same story?


I didn't see there entire interview. Only a little. They saw Brown half in the car. They had no video. When it got what went down with the shooting it was ambiguous. I think their stories could very well be coerced. Convince me otherwise. I'll listen.

Honestly, this looks like people wanting to hang the cop simply because the kid is unarmed. Just because someone is unarmed doesn't mean they aren't dangerous, aren't a threat, or even necessarily that the cop Knows he's unarmed.

Thank God he didn't have a gun.

[X-band '01]

No, but police involvement with a large man who is a suspect in an aggravated robbery is a far different story than innocent college-bound teen shot in cold blood for walking in the street.

Fair enough, although there's still the matter of attacking and assaulting an officer. Now it becomes fair to wonder if the officer initially thought he was armed or unarmed before being spotted on the street.

I don't know how well known Brown was in Ferguson, but I'm sure the stages of denial and anger will lead many people to believe that he was a so-called "gentle giant" getting ready for college.


REALLY?!?!?!?!? You're going with the kooks that think it's doctored?

I'd be VERY hard-pressed to believe they're doctored, but given the craziness going on for both sides here, I'd say nothing is impossible here.

[drudy23]

Anyone who's been following this story knows that Brown had been accused of stealing something. I believe the first report was a pack of gum from a convenience store. Hell, articles mentioned that looters had targeted the same convenience store where he was before. This is not new news.

Not sure why people feel this justifies him being murdered execution style all of a sudden.

Then stop saying some rogue cop confronted them for no reason and decided to shoot him because he ran away. This "rogue cop" crap is....crap.

[SemajParlor]

Thank God he didn't have a gun.

So that's the key take away here? Lord help me, don't need this added stress in my life. Have a great weekend everybody.

[PMI]

Black people are crazy!

[waggy]

So that's the key take away here? Lord help me, don't need this added stress in my life. Have a great weekend everybody.


I don't know if it's the key takeaway. Whatever that means. It was just an offhand comment, and probably unnecessary. But it looks to me that Brown was acting like a thug the day he died, and it's probably is a good thing he didn't have a gun.

[drudy23]

It was probably his first robbery too, huh?

[waggy]

I'm wondering if I were driving down the road Mike Brown was walking in the middle of the day he died, whether Mike would've allowed me to pass? Would I have to had to waited until Mike decided it was okay for me to pass? Would've I gotten the stare down having had the nerve to drive thru his hood? I mean, the police officer was evidently resisted, so I'm thinking it's not going to go much better for a mere cracker nobody.

[blobfan]

Anyone who's been following this story knows that Brown had been accused of stealing something. I believe the first report was a pack of gum from a convenience store. Hell, articles mentioned that looters had targeted the same convenience store where he was before. This is not new news.

Not sure why people feel this justifies him being murdered execution style all of a sudden.

The initial report I heard was that there was a petty theft at a nearby store but not that Brown was a suspect and most news stories have dropped that detail. This may explain why the police didn't want to interview his friend as an eyewitness. If that friend was with him at the store then his testimony is now that of a criminal associate and I give it no weight whatsoever. His account wasn't completely coherent anyway as he appeared to say that Brown fell twice.

I'd really like to know when the other eyewitnesses gave their statements. They would be more credible if done that day as opposed to after when they'd heard the 'unarmed gentle giant' narrative. I think action against the cop is going to hinge on how credible these two ladies are.

So I'm back to being in the middle on this one. It could be that Brown was still high on adrenaline from the earlier theft and confrontation, injured the cop, ran and was shot because he was a perceived danger to the community. It could also be that Brown did eventually stop, the cop was still mad and fired a couple more times than was necessary.

We may never know.

[casualfan]

The initial report I heard was that there was a petty theft at a nearby store but not that Brown was a suspect and most news stories have dropped that detail. This may explain why the police didn't want to interview his friend as an eyewitness. If that friend was with him at the store then his testimony is now that of a criminal associate and I give it no weight whatsoever. His account wasn't completely coherent anyway as he appeared to say that Brown fell twice.

I'd really like to know when the other eyewitnesses gave their statements. They would be more credible if done that day as opposed to after when they'd heard the 'unarmed gentle giant' narrative. I think action against the cop is going to hinge on how credible these two ladies are.

So I'm back to being in the middle on this one. It could be that Brown was still high on adrenaline from the earlier theft and confrontation, injured the cop, ran and was shot because he was a perceived danger to the community. It could also be that Brown did eventually stop, the cop was still mad and fired a couple more times than was necessary.

We will never know.

Fixed that for you.

[blobfan]

Fixed that for you.

Given how slow and incoherently some of the information has been released, and given that the local police seem to have been more focused on getting their toys out of mothball to show them off to protestors, I would not be surprised if some local business or such comes out and says "yeah, we had a camera pointed to the street and caught the whole thing on video but the police haven't gotten around to looking at it." So we may still yet know.

[fellahmuskie]

Well, the police chief said now that the officer didn't know Brown was a robbery suspect and didn't stop him for that reason. The police chief only released the video because the media was asking for it.

[MHettel]

Well, the police chief said now that the officer didn't know Brown was a robbery suspect and didn't stop him for that reason. The police chief only released the video because the media was asking for it.

well, maybe the cop didnt know he was the suspect, but obviously BROWN knew he was a suspect. Maybe Brown was being defensive, and the cop, with no understanding of a motive for this behavior, viewed it as OFFENSIVE.

Giant dude goes after my gun for no apparent reason. Goodnight.

[MHettel]

In the end, I think I'm right back to where I started.

Who really knows what happened? I dont, thats for sure.

But I do know that thousands of police officers find themselves in situations daily where they must demonstrate the training and clear headed decision making that is necessary to truly uphold the law without abusing their power. Certainly there are slip ups, and cases where cops cross the line. It's at least possible that this is just a case of that, but with the worst possible outcome.

My conclusion so far is that the cop probably didn't HAVE to shoot him. Whether it is ultimately justified or not isn't the same thing.

But, equally as important is that Michael Brown simply must be held accountable for HIS actions in this incident.

Lets say he gets that gun from the cop, and blows his brains all over his cruiser's dashboards. is he still a gentle giant on his way to college?

That kid is a punk, thug, brazen criminal. And that cost him his life.

[waggy]

Yes, I'm pretty sure someone, somewhere, would have been upset about the fact that an 18 yr old kid quite possibly got killed for Jaywalking. But certainly the race dynamic has increased the exposure. And maybe that's not a bad thing.

Boy, you sure do have a problem facing reality don't you? He wasn't killed for jaywalking. What a stupid, stupid, misrepresentation of what is known. It's irresponsible, and it is sickening.

[xubrew]

No one knows what happened and pretty much everyone has acknowledged that. It's the one thing people agree on, even if it is a reluctant agreement.

Nevertheless, I was able to guess with 100 percent accuracy what side everyone would take on the issue, and what kinds of suppositions they'd be making to defend their side. I think I may be spending far too much time on here.

[blobfan]

The investigation is going to end with the conclusion that the cop was following procedure and after seeing what that means in Ferguson this week, no one should be surprised. But they sure are going to be upset.

[DC Muskie]

Is that really true? I would have guessed that 80%+ mass murderers where white. As someone once said, white people are crazy.

White people are indeed crazy, just look at Drudy and MH as examples. Those guys are batshit crazy.

But yes, whites make up about only 37% of mass murderers. But they are always promoted in the media. Just like the media frenzy when a white child is missing. I had a friend who did her masters thesis in communication on the disparities of media attention concerning minority children and white children. It was pretty eye opening.


Not to derail the conversation here, but I think one of the biggest problems is that many people who are willing to help have had an experience that goes more like
"Can I have some money to afford some fruit?"
"No, but here is a fresh apple!"
"F**k that, I can't buy booze with an apple."

I know that panhandlers are not representative of the poor population in general, but to many people, they are the face of it, and they do a horrible job representing the poor. I think what Streetvibes does for the poor community is a very positive thing.

Oh yeah that shit happens all the time. Personally I don't give money to people on the street. It's much more effective to give to organizations who provide wrap around services. In Maryland they actually ship in the panhandlers from West Virginia and the people who provide them bus service and meals get a cut of what they bring in. They are at every major intersection throughout two of the counties near DC. As a social worker once explained to me, "They wouldn't do it, if it weren't successful and it doesn't help them one bit."

[DC Muskie]

So in a community where there is pervasive crime and violence, where armed gang members are known to exist, and this community is gearing up to make a stand against what they perceive as an injustice, and you think the cops should show up with whistles and bullhorns.

Maybe you should be a cop and show up in a situation like that. You'd probably get killed and we'd all be deprived of your incessant bickering about everything on this message board.

First of all, I really don't understand why you don't block me. If you think I incessantly bicker about everything, then why on earth do you give a shit. There are plenty of threads and topics that I ignore and my life is pretty fine. You on the other hand have this hard on for me and wish that I would die. Seek help.

By the way, armed gang members don't put land mines into the street where peaceful protesters are walking straight into snipers and full ammo police officers sitting on top of mine eraser vehicles. Have you been paying attention to the shit that was going on the last few days? Did you happen to notice that once the tanks and snipers left, there was a peaceful protest?

Of course not.

[X-band '01]

No one knows what happened and pretty much everyone has acknowledged that. It's the one thing people agree on, even if it is a reluctant agreement.

Nevertheless, I was able to guess with 100 percent accuracy what side everyone would take on the issue, and what kinds of suppositions they'd be making to defend their side. I think I may be spending far too much time on here.

You could say that about Facebook or Twitter or any messageboard. It's just a different cast and crew here to play the roles.

[Pete Delkus]

-So Brown and Friend walk into a Quick Mart, ask for a box of cigars. (I am sure Toxicology can find out if was a high at time of incident)
-Brown walks toward door without paying, and pushes store worker who confronts him for the theft. Walks back and intimidates worker, and leaves.
-Minutes later STL police tell him to move out of street, then struggle between Officer and Brown, where the later is shot to death. Possibly execution style - not known.

At was said before, the Officer didn't know Brown was suspect, but Brown knew he just committed a robbery, thus putting his current relationship with the police into question.


Is this correct?

[drudy23]

Go watch the CNN videos of these thugs looting their own stores and having a blast doing it. These type of people don't deserve anything, and Michael Brown was one of them. They should have ZERO rights.

[LA Muskie]

Boy, you sure do have a problem facing reality don't you? He wasn't killed for jaywalking. What a stupid, stupid, misrepresentation of what is known. It's irresponsible, and it is sickening.

There's a reason I said "quite possibly" and not "definitely". There's also a reason I deleted my post after news of the robbery was released.

Now why does every disagreement on this board have to turn personal?

[waggy]

There's a reason I said "quite possibly" and not "definitely". There's also a reason I deleted my post after news of the robbery was released.

Now why does every disagreement on this board have to turn personal?


I don't think I agree that my comments were personal. Definitely, you and I see things very differently right from the get-go. One of my main problems with these sorts of stories is people choosing sides before any real info comes out. They are absolutely sure the cop is a plantation owner decendent supressing the rights of minorities to the point of killing them execution style for (your quote and DC also said it) "jaywalking". What a bunch of crap. Or he was only stealing gum. I wonder how many packs of unpaid for gum go out that poor shop owners door every week?

The cop could be a college grad for all you know. He's had training. He might have a family that he provides for. He's probably worked a day in his life. He really is trying to make the streets safer. But you and others want to paint him as an execution style killer. And only God knows why? WTF agenda does that serve? I'd love to hear a reasonable explanation why you'd villify that guy on the internet without knowing the first fucking thing?

And I really would love for you to walk outside right now, find the nearest cop, try to take his gun and run away. See what happens.

[Juice]

I don't think I agree that my comments were personal. Definitely, you and I see things very differently right from the get-go. One of my main problems with these sorts of stories is people choosing sides before any real info comes out. They are absolutely sure the cop is a plantation owner decendent supressing the rights of minorities to the point of killing them execution style for (your quote and DC also said it) "jaywalking". What a bunch of crap. Or he was only stealing gum. I wonder how many packs of unpaid for gum go out that poor shop owners door every week?

The cop could be a college grad for all you know. He's had training. He might have a family that he provides for. He's probably worked a day in his life. He really is trying to make the streets safer. But you and others want to paint him as an execution style killer. And only God knows why? WTF agenda does that serve? I'd love to hear a reasonable explanation why you'd villify that guy on the internet without knowing the first fucking thing?

And I really would love for you to walk outside right now, find the nearest cop, try to take his gun and run away. See what happens.

I bet we wouldn't get shot. Cincinnati police are better than that.

[waggy]

I bet we wouldn't get shot. Cincinnati police are better than that.


I can't think of any reasonable justification for trying to take an officers gun from him. If that happens then I think you have to trust the officers judgement.

[DC Muskie]

I can't think of any reasonable justification for trying to take an officers gun from him. If that happens then I think you have to trust the officers judgement.

Trust him to shoot me in the back? That makes zero sense.

[waggy]

It makes zero sense to try to take the gun.

[waggy]

The police officer is issued the gun by an agency.

The officer has the right to possess the gun.

A civilian does not have the right to possess the gun.

A civilian cannot take the gun.

If a civilian tries to take the gun, illegally, one can only construe that he intends to use it.

Which equates to exactly what charge I don't know, but involves hurting and killing other people.

Of maybe he just wanted to commit suicide. Which really who could blame him with all the white suppression going on.

[Juice]

The police officer is issued the gun by an agency.

The officer has the right to possess the gun.

A civilian does not have the right to possess the gun.

A civilian cannot take the gun.

If a civilian tries to take the gun, illegally, one can only construe that he intends to use it.

Which equates to exactly what charge I don't know, but involves hurting and killing other people.

Of maybe he just wanted to commit suicide. Which really who could blame him with all the white suppression going on.

Right but you cannot shoot someone for trying to take a gun unless you reasonably believe he has a firearm and intends to use it.

[waggy]

Right but you cannot shoot someone for trying to take a gun unless you reasonably believe he has a firearm and intends to use it.


My guess is this is pretty much a garbage statement. Is this the law according to Juice, or do you have a link to back this up?

[coasterville95]

Well it sounded at first like replacing the local police with state troopers may have started to calm this down. Unfortunately that does not appear to be the case. I'm sure the media events yesterday did not help. The latest I read is these fine upstanding protesting citizens are taking tier anger out on the convenience store our sainted victim robbed.

[Juice]

My guess is this is pretty much a garbage statement. Is this the law according to Juice, or do you have a link to back this up?

I work police officers. If they shot every person who reached for their gun then we would have a lot more dead civilians in Cincinnati/Hamilton County.

http://www.opba.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=348:police-use-of-deadly-force&catid=76:prosecutors-desk&Itemid=110

But sure keep doing you.

[XU 87]

I bet we wouldn't get shot. Cincinnati police are better than that.

A Cincinnati cop shot and killed a kid last year right next to Fountain square. The cop tried to arrest the kid. The kid fought/wrestled the cop. While they were wrestling, the kid tried to get the cop's gun. The cop shot and killed the kid. Justifiably.

[waggy]

Right but you cannot shoot someone for trying to take a gun unless you reasonably believe he has a firearm and intends to use it.


I work police officers. If they shot every person who reached for their gun then we would have a lot more dead civilians in Cincinnati/Hamilton County.

http://www.opba.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=348:police-use-of-deadly-force&catid=76:prosecutors-desk&Itemid=110

But sure keep doing you.


Thank you for link. Very helpful. It doesn't say however that an unarmed person cannot (reasonably) be shot. Which is the mainly what I wanted to contest.

[bleedXblue]

A Cincinnati cop shot and killed a kid last year right next to Fountain square. The cop tried to arrest the kid. The kid fought/wrestled the cop. While they were wrestling, the kid tried to get the cop's gun. The cop shot and killed the kid. Justifiably.

In this situation by all accounts this kid was fleeing the scene and was shot dead. Not looking good for the cop at all.

[Juice]

People from St. Louis seem nice

http://www.newrepublic.com/article/119102/what-white-st-louis-thinks-about-ferguson

(Holy shit)

[NY44]

Go watch the CNN videos of these thugs looting their own stores and having a blast doing it. These type of people don't deserve anything, and Michael Brown was one of them. They should have ZERO rights.

There's no need to try to have a discussion with someone who thinks like this. Every time something like this happens, people attack the victims character. Nothing better than pictures of a guy's Facebook and past being used to justify his murder.

Listen, I get that Brown might not have been an outstanding humanitarian. Word of him robbing places makes me reconsider his intention in the altercation. However, his character is in no way an acceptable justification for his death. He was an American citizen and more importantly a person and he has rights. Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

It's also comically hypocritical of people who are unwilling to acknowledge the quotes from witnesses being able to jump on these character attacks as fact.

[Juice]

There's no need to try to have a discussion with someone who thinks like this. Every time something like this happens, people attack the victims character. Nothing better than pictures of a guy's Facebook and past being used to justify his murder.

Listen, I get that Brown might not have been an outstanding humanitarian. Word of him robbing places makes me reconsider his intention in the altercation. However, his character is in no way an acceptable justification for his death. He was an American citizen and more importantly a person and he has rights. Life, Freedom, and the pursuit of happiness.

It's also comically hypocritical of people who are unwilling to acknowledge the quotes from witnesses being able to jump on these character attacks as fact.

I also think it's funny that people have more or less said that because Brown committed a crime that it somehow justifies him dying. It would simply justify him doing some time in jail or prison.

[GoMuskies]

People from St. Louis seem nice

http://www.newrepublic.com/article/119102/what-white-st-louis-thinks-about-ferguson

(Holy shit)


What exactly was the point of that article? Some white people 15 minutes away from Ferguson like to drink beer and suck BBQ sass off their fingers and don't think black people should be looting. Obviously they're all horrible.

[waggy]

What exactly was the point of that article? Some white people 15 minutes away from Ferguson like to drink beer and suck BBQ sass off their fingers and don't think black people should be looting. Obviously they're all horrible.


You're not aghast that white people have prejudices? Each one of those quotes is worth 2 looted buildings, or 1 burnt to the ground, take your pick. I'm not sure Ferguson has enough buildings still standing to pay adequate retribution.

[BBC 08]

Please! This is supposed to be a happy occasion. Let's not bicker and argue over who killed who.

[LA Muskie]

I don't think I agree that my comments were personal. Definitely, you and I see things very differently right from the get-go. One of my main problems with these sorts of stories is people choosing sides before any real info comes out. They are absolutely sure the cop is a plantation owner decendent supressing the rights of minorities to the point of killing them execution style for (your quote and DC also said it) "jaywalking". What a bunch of crap. Or he was only stealing gum. I wonder how many packs of unpaid for gum go out that poor shop owners door every week?

The cop could be a college grad for all you know. He's had training. He might have a family that he provides for. He's probably worked a day in his life. He really is trying to make the streets safer. But you and others want to paint him as an execution style killer. And only God knows why? WTF agenda does that serve? I'd love to hear a reasonable explanation why you'd villify that guy on the internet without knowing the first fucking thing?

And I really would love for you to walk outside right now, find the nearest cop, try to take his gun and run away. See what happens.

I'm nowhere near the extreme you think I am. One of my closest childhood friends, a guy I consider an older brother, is a gang unit cop in Phoenix. His partner was killed a few years ago in a shootout. We have spoken endlessly about it. There are times a cop has to shoot. They are rare. It is rarer still that they need to shoot to kill. Maybe this was such an instance. But,
odds are, it was not.

[DC Muskie]

Here's an interesting story.

Cops gets hit with a car. Shoots driver, driver flees, cops catch him and put him into custody without incident.

Here's the link. (http://www.wtop.com/70/3683501/Frederick-police-shoot-man-who-hit-officer-with-car-both-injured)

[Frambo]

I'm nowhere near the extreme you think I am. One of my closest childhood friends, a guy I consider an older brother, is a gang unit cop in Phoenix. His partner was killed a few years ago in a shootout. We have spoken endlessly about it. There are times a cop has to shoot. They are rare. It is rarer still that they need to shoot to kill. Maybe this was such an instance. But,
odds are, it was not.

It's probably not a super important part of the video of the swisher sweet robbery, but after he threw the clerk around and started out...he bounced back at the clerk with a threatening pose. At 6'4 and 300+, it looks like he could do some damage. Wonder if he did the same thing to the cop after the window incident? Still doesn't explain any extra shots when his hands were raised but it could be why the shooting started.

[RealDeal]

http://www.theonion.com/articles/tips-for-being-an-unarmed-black-teen,36697/

[waggy]

http://www.theonion.com/articles/tips-for-being-an-unarmed-black-teen,36697/

I think that is a bunch of garbage, and just leads to more problems. I could just as easily come up with a list of things not to do, except that they would based in realities like not breaking the law.


edit: Matter of fact, I'm pretty sure Chris Rock's got a video on the subject.

[xavierj]

A couple of months ago a white girl in Florence, KY was shot point blank by a cop and killed. He said she was trying to run him over, everyone else said she was trying to pull off the busy street so they could wait for the officer. Pretty sure she should not have been killed. I wonder why no one rioted, why the businesses of Florence, KY were not looted and why it was not a national story. The girl was 19 and a recent high school graduate.

[Juice]

A couple of months ago a white girl in Florence, KY was shot point blank by a cop and killed. He said she was trying to run him over, everyone else said she was trying to pull off the busy street so they could wait for the officer. Pretty sure she should not have been killed. I wonder why no one rioted, why the businesses of Florence, KY were not looted and why it was not a national story. The girl was 19 and a recent high school graduate.

Because although that is an awful story, police shootings usually involve them shooting and killing black people. White people don't really have much injustice to fight against. But I'm sure you could have started a protest if you wanted.

[waggy]

A couple of months ago a white girl in Florence, KY was shot point blank by a cop and killed. He said she was trying to run him over, everyone else said she was trying to pull off the busy street so they could wait for the officer. Pretty sure she should not have been killed. I wonder why no one rioted, why the businesses of Florence, KY were not looted and why it was not a national story. The girl was 19 and a recent high school graduate.


From what I've seen the Ferguson incident isn't even racially motivated. If a 6'-4", 300 lbs white guy was doing what Brown did, he gets shot too. I've seen nothing from people claiming this is racially motive based, give anything other than stereotypical conjecture. Realdeals post is a perfect example.

[waggy]

Because although that is an awful story, police shootings usually involve them shooting and killing black people. White people don't really have much injustice to fight against. But I'm sure you could have started a protest if you wanted.


It's not injustice. Economic plight, challenges, whatever, don't give people the freedom to break laws.

[xeus]

White people don't really have much injustice to fight against.

Are you being sarcastic, or just stupid?

[SemajParlor]

The police officer is issued the gun by an agency.

The officer has the right to possess the gun.

A civilian does not have the right to possess the gun.

A civilian cannot take the gun.

If a civilian tries to take the gun, illegally, one can only construe that he intends to use it.

Which equates to exactly what charge I don't know, but involves hurting and killing other people.

Of maybe he just wanted to commit suicide. Which really who could blame him with all the white suppression going on.

Just your friendly reminder that 3 eye witnesses have said that Mike Brown did not reach for a gun.

[waggy]

Video evidence clearly shows Brown robbing a convenience store and intimidating the store owner. Instead of a remorseful apology from the family for his behavior, we get an accusation that the police are attempting to assassinate his character and taint public opinion.

[Juice]

Are you being sarcastic, or just stupid?

Sarcastic a bit but I was referring to whites in relation to race and injustice. Obviously there is other shit in the world. But being the victims of racism, discrimination, etc., we have it pretty good.

[XU 87]

The cop's version is apparently that Brown was running away and the cop yelled "Freeze" or something like that. Instead of stopping, Brown turned around and being running at the cop. The cop then shot him.

The cop's version is supposedly supported by a witness.

But this is why we should wait for all the facts before making judgments (or rioting and looting).

Question for Juice and others- if what the cop says is true, was it ok to shoot the kid? If not, what should the cop have done?

[Juice]

“An officer doesn’t have xray vision,” wrote Jennifer Hall, of Robertsville, Missouri. “He can’t tell if you have weapon or not until searched. So you act in a suspicious manner, we know what the consequences are.”

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/18/ferguson-supporters-police-killed-teenager-protest?CMP=twt_gu

Somehow this person thinks that police should be allowed to shoot anyone because someone acts in a suspicious manner. Seems reasonable.


Robin Barklage, who said he once lived in one of the apartment buildings overlooking the site of Brown’s shooting, said he believed police claims that Brown assaulted Wilson. “I believe he did what he had to do,” said Barklage. “No officer is going to go further then they need to”

According to this guy, cops are never wrong.

[DC Muskie]

They are now shooting teargas into the crowd.

Awesome. This could last weeks.

[DC Muskie]

Why are the cops still wearing camouflage? When do police officers ever need to wear such things?

[SemajParlor]

The cop's version is apparently that Brown was running away and the cop yelled "Freeze" or something like that. Instead of stopping, Brown turned around and being running at the cop. The cop then shot him.

The cop's version is supposedly supported by a witness.

But this is why we should wait for all the facts before making judgments (or rioting and looting).

Question for Juice and others- if what the cop says is true, was it ok to shoot the kid? If not, what should the cop have done?

Can you please provide a link for this? Not denying it, I just have not come across this yet.

[DC Muskie]

Also, why are people protesting at night? It's a little contradictory for people to shout "Don't Shoot!" while others are throwing rocks at police.

[Frambo]

The cop's version is apparently that Brown was running away and the cop yelled "Freeze" or something like that. Instead of stopping, Brown turned around and being running at the cop. The cop then shot him.

The cop's version is supposedly supported by a witness.

But this is why we should wait for all the facts before making judgments (or rioting and looting).

Question for Juice and others- if what the cop says is true, was it ok to shoot the kid? If not, what should the cop have done?

Interesting if true....it is along the line I mentioned after watching the robbery video when Brown came back at the clerk, but coming back at a cop gives you a different result.

[drudy23]

This may get real ugly tonight.

[xu82]

Also, why are people protesting at night? It's a little contradictory for people to shout "Don't Shoot!" while others are throwing rocks at police.

They probably need to be more specific. "Don't shoot ME" might help a little, but would be ill advised. "Shoot the guy in the yellow shirt and the blue hat five feet to my left... your right" is probably a bad idea too.

Go home and wait it out sounds like my most likely plan of action. (A Hawaii vacation is probably not an option.)

[Juice]

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/18/us/michael-brown-autopsy-shows-he-was-shot-at-least-6-times.html?smid=tw-bna&_r=0

Brown was shot from the front

[xu82]

Well, that seems like one hurdle cleared. Now how far away was he? Could he have still been a threat?

[Juice]

Well, that seems like one hurdle cleared. Now how far away was he? Could he have still been a threat?


The bullets did not appear to have been shot from very close range because no gunpowder was present on his body. However, that determination could change if it turns out that there is gunshot residue on Mr. Brown’s clothing, to which Dr. Baden did not have access. - from the same article

[coasterville95]

I'm trying to remember, when we had the last major Cincinnati race riots in April, 2001 - about how long was it from the powder keg incident to when things were calmed down. I'm thinking 5-7 days, I remember the curfews, and not being able to attend Holy Thursday service or Easter Vigil, whcih is my favorite Mass of the whole year. Not that any church in Cincy offered them so as not to put people in conflict.

[xu82]

- from the same article

Yeah, I saw that. I just don't know what "very close range" means exactly. And then there's the possibility of GSR on the shirt. More unknowns. I have no preconceived notions here. I just hope they get to the bottom of it and everyone gets what they deserve.

[Juice]

Yeah, I saw that. I just don't know what "very close range" means exactly. And then there's the possibility of GSR on the shirt. More unknowns. I have no preconceived notions here. I just hope they get to the bottom of it and everyone gets what they deserve.

My limited research says that GSR can travel 3-5 feet. So my guess is that "very close range" is probably within that distance.

[SemajParlor]

Looks like it's getting real ugly out there tonight… Not sure what the right answer is for both sides here.. but it can't be this.

[X-band '01]

I'm trying to remember, when we had the last major Cincinnati race riots in April, 2001 - about how long was it from the powder keg incident to when things were calmed down. I'm thinking 5-7 days, I remember the curfews, and not being able to attend Holy Thursday service or Easter Vigil, whcih is my favorite Mass of the whole year. Not that any church in Cincy offered them so as not to put people in conflict.

They actually moved the Holy Thursday and Good Friday services to the afternoon - it is permissible under canon/Church law to do so under special circumstances. The Easter Vigil could not be moved because it must be done at night. But I thought the curfews had been lifted by then.

[Snipe]

You can tell it is an election year.

[coasterville95]

I thought the curfew went through Sunday. Anyway, now the national guard has been brought in. That ought to cool things off.

[Pete Delkus]

"Winning the battle, losing the war"

This summarization can be claimed by both sides, however the media's attempt to counter balance the images of the rioting, by justifying the actions of the Ferguson is laughable.

I know my associate network is narrow, and if I look in the mirror they look a lot like me... However, overwhelming attitude is that IF there is institutional discrimination, its promoted and elevated by the race-baters who bolster victimization and finger pointing.

Ultimately, I see neighbors at our gatherings feeling bad at a loss of life, but as the facts come out, feel further separated from getting behind "The Movement" when they see Brown purchasing blunts, stealing from and intimidating store owners, and then seeing the awful aftermath of violence.

[DC Muskie]

"however the media's attempt to counter balance the images of the rioting, by justifying the actions of the Ferguson is laughable.

What do you mean by this exactly? I haven't seen one instance where the media has been promoting violence.

[Xville]

i love how all the "eyewitness" testimony that said Brown ran away from the officer and knelt down with his hands up has already been disproven by the autopsy report. The report showed that he was shot from the front. Shocking they would actually lie :jawdrop2:

[X-man]

i love how all the "eyewitness" testimony that said Brown ran away from the officer and knelt down with his hands up has already been disproven by the autopsy report. The report showed that he was shot from the front. Shocking they would actually lie :jawdrop2:

Is it possible that he did actually run away before turning around (with his hands up) when he decided to rethink the wiseness of running away? I have no idea, but this would seem a plausible alternative to your interpretation.

[Xville]

Is it possible that he did actually run away before turning around (with his hands up) when he decided to rethink the wiseness of running away? I have no idea, but this would seem a plausible alternative to your interpretation.

it is possible, but that isn't what the "eyewitnesses" said happened. the eye witnesses said his back was turned away from the shots...he was really facing the officer.

[SemajParlor]

Is it possible that he did actually run away before turning around (with his hands up) when he decided to rethink the wiseness of running away? I have no idea, but this would seem a plausible alternative to your interpretation.

Brown was killed 30 feet away from the initial struggle. Did he get down on his knees and put his hands up? Did he charge the officer after being shot? We may never know... It's pretty same to assume he made some attempt to distance himself from the officer at least initially before being killed though.

[SemajParlor]

i love how all the "eyewitness" testimony that said Brown ran away from the officer and knelt down with his hands up has already been disproven by the autopsy report. The report showed that he was shot from the front. Shocking they would actually lie :jawdrop2:

Many consider a 6'4 person being shot in the top of the skull at a downward angle as the autopsy shows further proves that Brown was kneeling down. Or that shooting an unarmed person at least 6 times from a distance that doesn't appear to be an immediate threat (ie not close range) might be excessive... It's interesting how even given the same information, people will use it to further their distinct narratives. Not sure if any evidence will ever be able to convince one side or the other here - it may be too far gone at this point.

[LA Muskie]

To my knowledge, no one has testified under oath as to what happened. Nor been subjected to cross examination. Until then, I take just about everything said with a grain of salt. About the only verifiable facts of which I am aware are (i) Brown had just committed robbery; (ii) Brown was unamarmed, (iii) the cop was armed, and (iv) the cop shot and killed Brown.

[XU 87]

Many consider a 6'4 person being shot in the top of the skull at a downward angle as the autopsy shows further proves that Brown was kneeling down.

If that's the case, "Maybe". But it is also possible that he was shot somewhere else first and the bullet went into his head as was falling down, depending on how he fell. Or maybe Brown was running up a hill when he was shot in the head. Maybe Brown was crouched over when he was running towards the cop.

Or maybe the cop was 7'6".

Article I just read said the head shot was the last one and he was bending over when he was struck.

[drudy23]

Many consider a 6'4 person being shot in the top of the skull at a downward angle as the autopsy shows further proves that Brown was kneeling down.

How does it prove he was kneeling? When you kneel with your hands up, your head very likely could be up. Also, even if you're hands aren't up and you're kneeling, it doesn't mean your head was down.

To me, it proves his head was in a downward position...has nothing to do with kneeling.

Also, I would assume they would be able to determine if the wounds in his arms were from someone in a position where the arms were by their side, or in the air....seems like they could figure that out from the wounds, but maybe not.

[SemajParlor]

How does it prove he was kneeling? When you kneel with your hands up, your head very likely could be up. Also, even if you're hands aren't up and you're kneeling, it doesn't mean your head was down.

To me, it proves his head was in a downward position...has nothing to do with kneeling.

Also, I would assume they would be able to determine if the wounds in his arms were from someone in a position where the arms were by their side, or in the air....seems like they could figure that out from the wounds, but maybe not.

I'm not necessarily agreeing or disagreeing. I'm not a forensics expert nor do I plan on acting like one. I just wanted to point out that even solid evidence can be skewed to fit a certain narrative.

[NY44]

If the head shot was the last one, my bet is that he was falling down to the ground. Especially since he had already been shot 5 times. If nothing else, the autopsy finally gives us the number of shots sustained. 6 shots seems like a hell of a lot, even assuming that he hit every shot he took. How many does a gun the officer would have even hold?

[Juice]

If the head shot was the last one, my bet is that he was falling down to the ground. Especially since he had already been shot 5 times. If nothing else, the autopsy finally gives us the number of shots sustained. 6 shots seems like a hell of a lot, even assuming that he hit every shot he took. How many does a gun the officer would have even hold?

When an officer fires his weapon, it's to kill. Whether he was correct in using deadly force, that's obviously a whole different issue. Assuming he had a semi-automatic weapon, his magazine probably held anywhere from 10-12 rounds.

[Kahns Krazy]

When an officer fires his weapon, it's to kill. Whether he was correct in using deadly force, that's obviously a whole different issue. Assuming he had a semi-automatic weapon, his magazine probably held anywhere from 10-12 rounds.

Clearly the officer hit him four times in the arm when his armed were raised in surrender to set up the kill shot, then bounced one off a lightpost to hit him in the head while he was running away.

[blobfan]

Just your friendly reminder that 3 eye witnesses have said that Mike Brown did not reach for a gun.
Two eyewitnesses said there was a struggle and it didn't look as though he was going for the gun but they couldn't be sure. One of those eyewitnesses also says she was sitting in her apartment when she witnessed the shooting. The third person, and the only one to actually say Brown didn't reach for the gun has started refusing interviews now that the information is out about the preceding robbery. If Brown were alive this 'eyewitness' would probably be called a 'co-defendant.'

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/18/us/michael-brown-autopsy-shows-he-was-shot-at-least-6-times.html?smid=tw-bna&_r=0

Brown was shot from the front
Very interesting article. It gives a timeline I haven't seen yet. It seems the folks on the ground took Johnson at his word without real proof.

[bobbiemcgee]

Mark O'Mara sez eyewitness testimony usually isn't worth a shit. Disproved by the forensics all the time.

[waggy]

Mark O'Mara sez eyewitness testimony usually isn't worth a shit. Disproved by the forensics all the time.


It really is scary. Is anything any of us see even real then?

I'm worried for froop loops.

[paulxu]

What's amazing is that no one had a cell phone out taping this entire mess.

[X-band '01]

What's amazing is that no one had a cell phone out taping this entire mess.

Not from lack of effort - there was an eyewitness who said she went into shellshock before she could videotape the whole thing.

[PM Thor]

Mark O'Mara sez eyewitness testimony usually isn't worth a shit. Disproved by the forensics all the time.

It's not even that eyewitness accounts are disproven by forensics, it's that eyewitness accounts in and of themselves aren't reliable. Over time everyone remembers things slightly differently, even if they are being genuine in what they are saying, they might just misremember things. I've had to testify in a murder trial once, and right after the events happened, the detectives told all of us to write down exactly what we saw and heard as precisely as we could remember. Once on paper you can't really revise what you witnessed and those doubting your account can't undermine your memory after the fact.

[bobbiemcgee]

Not from lack of effort - there was an eyewitness who said she went into shellshock before she could videotape the whole thing.

Exactly O'Mara's point. People get so traumatized, their brains go into shock and they aren't sure what they just saw.

[SemajParlor]

Exactly O'Mara's point. People get so traumatized, their brains go into shock and they aren't sure what they just saw.

Wasn't there only like 3 minutes between the initial stop and Brown being dead? Tough to capture that on film.... Same thing can be said about a police officer filing an official report I'd imagine--- especially given the stakes.

[Kahns Krazy]

Even if you don't change your mind, your view of something may be from an angle that obstructs or changes your perception of events. How many times have you seen something happen in a sporting event that you were sure was one way that a different angle replay shows you how wrong you are?

Poor people in Russia have dash cams running 24/7. That's why there were dozens of videos of that meteor a year or so ago. How is it that every police dash cam isn't running constantly with like a 4 hour rolling record time.

I think if I were a cop, I'd buy a go-pro and use it to cover my ass. Not sure how much it would have caught in this case, but there would at least be some audio to corroborate the "I'm going to shoot" allegation.

[SemajParlor]

Here is an apparent friend of the officer shedding some light on the other side of the story. Ferguson PD's handling of everything is making Xavier's administration circa 2011-2012 look like an elite PR firm. http://www.cnn.com/2014/08/18/us/missouri-teen-shooting/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

[paulxu]

With all the armored vehicles that community has, one would think there are dash cams on the cop cars.
Maybe there is video from such a camera and it just hasn't been released.

[xubrew]

Here is an apparent friend of the officer shedding some light on the other side of the story. Ferguson PD's handling of everything is making Xavier's administration circa 2011-2012 look like an elite PR firm. http://www.cnn.com/2014/08/18/us/missouri-teen-shooting/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

A friend of the officer calls in anonymously, gives a very different account then what other eye witnesses have given, and says it wasn't the officer's fault. Okay.

I don't think this sheds any light on anything. If anything, it muddies the waters even more.

[waggy]

With all the armored vehicles that community has,

How many do they have?

It would appear that police forces might actually need these if Ferguson is any example. Even if the kid was flat murdered, and we know no reasonable persons defend that, it still doesn't justify rioting and looting. The picture that is emerging is that even if the officer made mistakes that deadly force wasn't totally unjustified. What can be done with large groups of people that can't wait for facts, and/or when they do receive them, can't or won't process them logically?

[xubrew]

I always enjoy John Oliver.....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUdHIatS36A

[xu82]

I always enjoy John Oliver.....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUdHIatS36A

I enjoyed this as well. Not as much as the classic FIFA rant, but that was all-time awesome. This one definitely calls for some bright funny guy to provide a rebuttal. He's funny, but there was a noticeable absence of balance. Isn't that always the case....

[SemajParlor]

A friend of the officer calls in anonymously, gives a very different account then what other eye witnesses have given, and says it wasn't the officer's fault. Okay.

I don't think this sheds any light on anything. If anything, it muddies the waters even more.

Of course it does. Sorry, I have a tendency to use tongue in cheek. This thing is a straight mess.

[waggy]

Why worry about what an anonymous caller who claims to be the cops friend says? For all you know it was me that made that call. Disregard it.

Are you unmuddied now?

[xubrew]

Why worry about what an anonymous caller who claims to be the cops friend says? For all you know it was me that made that call. Disregard it.

Are you unmuddied now?

I was never muddied in the first place because I never gave this any credence. She didn't witness it, and never claimed to witness it. She even began her story by saying "He said that..."

She also talks about how he got the call in that there was a strong arm robbery, and how the officer was looking at them and saw they had something in their hands. How could anyone witness him getting a call like that??

This person did not witness a damn thing. No one who wasn't in the car would be able to witness him getting a call on a strong armed robbery. If she really is a friend of the officer, she's simply repeating his side of the story that she probably heard from him.

http://danaloeschradio.com/alleged-friend-of-officer-darren-wilson-offers-his-side/

[xubrew]

Of course it does. Sorry, I have a tendency to use tongue in cheek. This thing is a straight mess.

Ahh, I get it now....

[waggy]

Why do you continue to post and go on about things you give no credence?

[xubrew]

Why do you continue to post and go on about things you give no credence?

I will explain why I think they have no credence to people who I think are giving it credence....which I now realize no one was.

[waggy]

You posted something having no credence, so you could explain why it has no credence?

[xubrew]

You posted something having no credence, so you could explain why it has no credence?

Do you really need this explained so thoroughly?? I posted the interview that was originally referenced in the link to discredit it. That was before I realized it was a tongue and cheek post.

[waggy]

Sorry. It looked like you were going to the trouble of discrediting an anonymous statement.

[GuyFawkes38]

One of things I find mind-boggling is the complete absence of any criticism of Mike Brown. What happened to him is awful, but it's important to acknowledge that he made some poor decisions. Brown was under the influence of marijuana (which could cause paranoia and poor judgement). Brown threatened a shopkeeper and stole cigars. Brown then jumped a police officer.

I have no idea if race was a factor in this homicide (it probably was), but I know that if I made the above decisions, I would recognize that I would be putting my life in jeopardy. I don't think I'm in the minority on this. Most people would think, "Not a fan of cops, but probably not worth it to jump this idiot and put my life at risk." I have trouble understanding the shock that so many feel about this incident. If you jump a cop, awful things could happen.

[waggy]

If race was a factor Guy, why wasn't Mr. Brown's associate shot? Or any of the other black people in the general area?

Mr. Wilson was thinking to himself when he was driving down the street, 'If I just kill Brown I can probably get away with it, and no one will catch on to my secret racial hatred'.

[NY44]

One of things I find mind-boggling is the complete absence of any criticism of Mike Brown. What happened to him is awful, but it's important to acknowledge that he made some poor decisions. Brown was under the influence of marijuana (which could cause paranoia and poor judgement). Brown threatened a shopkeeper and stole cigars. Brown then jumped a police officer.

I have no idea if race was a factor in this homicide (it probably was), but I know that if I made the above decisions, I would recognize that I would be putting my life in jeopardy. I don't think I'm in the minority on this. Most people would think, "Not a fan of cops, but probably not worth it to jump this idiot and put my life at risk." I have trouble understanding the shock that so many feel about this incident. If you jump a cop, awful things could happen.

When did it become a fact that Brown jumped the officer?

[Kahns Krazy]

If race was a factor Guy, why wasn't Mr. Brown's associate shot? Or any of the other black people in the general area?

Mr. Wilson was thinking to himself when he was driving down the street, 'If I just kill Brown I can probably get away with it, and no one will catch on to my secret racial hatred'.

Are you trying to be dumber every day? Would you argue that speed can't be a factor in a crash simply because some other people speeding don't crash?

[GuyFawkes38]

If race was a factor Guy, why wasn't Mr. Brown's associate shot? Or any of the other black people in the general area?

Mr. Wilson was thinking to himself when he was driving down the street, 'If I just kill Brown I can probably get away with it, and no one will catch on to my secret racial hatred'.

Well, of course not that explicit. More of a split second, subconscience evaluation that a black man poses more a risk than a white man. But again, I don't know. If I had to guess, I think it might have been a factor.

My primary point was that Mike Browns poor decisions played a larger role in his death than his race and I'm having difficulty understanding why so many are shocked of his death. This doesn't seem to be in the same type of class as what happened to Rodney King or Trayvon Martin. In both of those cases, they were thrown in a fight they didn't want to be in. But Mike Brown chose this fight.

[waggy]

Are you trying to be dumber every day? Would you argue that speed can't be a factor in a crash simply because some other people speeding don't crash?

The man wasn't shot because he was black. His associate wasn't so much as fired upon.

Is this what we are going to go thru every time a white officer is forced to fire upon a black man? Kneejerk accusations of racism?

[NY44]

If race was a factor Guy, why wasn't Mr. Brown's associate shot? Or any of the other black people in the general area?

Mr. Wilson was thinking to himself when he was driving down the street, 'If I just kill Brown I can probably get away with it, and no one will catch on to my secret racial hatred'.

Yeah because if someone's racist that means they want to kill everyone of that race. The main concern with race is that it might have caused the cop to be paranoid or assume that Brown was a threat. Maybe not as much as that devil drug marijuana, but still.

[waggy]

Yeah because if someone's racist that means they want to kill everyone of that race. The main concern with race is that it might have caused the cop to be paranoid or assume that Brown was a threat. Maybe not as much as that devil drug marijuana, but still.


Yeah doc, please explain to me the interworkings of the racist mind. They only kill certain black people, and only leftist wingnuts can tell.

Now if you wanted to say there was a black mob of racists on display in Ferguson MO the last week, I could get on board with that.

[NY44]

Yeah doc, please explain to me the interworkings of the racist mind. They only kill certain black people, and only leftist wingnuts can tell.

Now if you wanted to say there was a black mob of racists on display in Ferguson MO the last week, I could get on board with that.

I really can't tell if you're joking, but I sure hope so. You have to be.

A racist is someone who makes assumptions about someone based on the color of their skin.

[waggy]

I really can't tell if you're joking, but I sure hope so. You have to be.

A racist is someone who makes assumptions about someone based on the color of their skin.


Do these assumptions manifest themselves in rioting and looting, doc?

[waggy]

A racist is someone who makes assumptions about someone based on the color of their skin.


Hmmmm. Tell me everything you know about officer Wilson.

[NY44]

Hmmmm. Tell me everything you know about officer Wilson.

I'm not pointing to race as a motive for the shooting. I'm dismissing your ridiculous argument that race was not a motivator because Wilson didn't kill every single black person he could.

[blobfan]

Ferguson residents are setting fires in the streets to keep police at bay and carrying homemade bombs. This is going to turn bloody. My thoughts go out to those that truly have peace in their hearts.

[waggy]

I'm not pointing to race as a motive for the shooting.


So what's the fucking problem then?

[NY44]

So what's the fucking problem then?

The problem is that it's a possible motive that needs to be considered. You can't dismiss it because Wilson didn't parade down the street killing all black people in sight.

[waggy]

The problem is that it's a possible motive that needs to be considered. You can't dismiss it because Wilson didn't parade down the street killing all black people in sight.


But it's just as likely, in fact more likely based upon what has come to light, that this is nothing but racial bias in reverse. Sorry, but that is just the truth.

[NY44]

But it's just as likely, in fact more likely based upon what has come to light, that this is nothing but racial bias in reverse. Sorry, but that is just the truth.

Agreed, that it has become less likely. However, it's still impossible to to rule out motives if we don't even have a clear picture of what happened. Based on the the tensions that have followed the killing, it's far from safe to eliminate race as a motive for either man's handling of the situation.

The main problem is still that an unarmed man was killed by a police officer. If this was really necessary, than I would have expected the police to have told us exactly why by now. If they're still investigating it suggests to me that it's unclear why it was necessary and as I've said before, if it's unclear then it's probably unnecessary.

[waggy]

Agreed, that it has become less likely. However, it's still impossible to to rule out motives if we don't even have a clear picture of what happened. Based on the the tensions that have followed the killing, it's far from safe to eliminate race as a motive for either man's handling of the situation.

The main problem is still that an unarmed man was killed by a police officer. If this was really necessary, than I would have expected the police to have told us exactly why by now. If they're still investigating it suggests to me that it's unclear why it was necessary and as I've said before, if it's unclear then it's probably unnecessary.


The accusations of racism were immediate. Was not the quote "execution style"? Seems to me I remember that very early on. "Unarmed". Another buzzword that the cop was wrong. Lies and hyperbole. Riots 24 hrs later. And the Ferguson police dept. is supposed to jump for everybody? They're supposed to handle riots, handle pr against an accussatory press, and conduct an investigation?

Edit: And they are not supposed to wear camo. And they can't used armored vehicles. And they can't be too aggressive. But they can't be too soft. And I like my porage this way...

[Juice]

So what's the fucking problem then?

That you think that for someone to be racist they have to shoot more than one person in a given area.

[waggy]

That you think that for someone to be racist they have to shoot more than one person in a given area.


Same question to you.. Tell me everything you know about officer Wilson.

[NY44]

The accusations of racism were immediate. Was not the quote "execution style"? Seems to me I remember that very early on. "Unarmed". Another buzzword that the cop was wrong. Lies and hyperbole. Riots 24 hrs later. And the Ferguson police dept. is supposed to jump for everybody? They're supposed to handle riots, handle pr against an accussatory press, and conduct an investigation?

I don't see your connection between what's wrong with an execution style killing and race. That would be an outrage to a community no matter what the race of the victim was. "Unarmed" and "execution style" are very important, but unrelated to race. They also have not been dismissed as lies, especially that Brown was unarmed. That's a stone cold fact from all reports.

The Ferguson police do have their hands full, but they have done it to themselves. As police, their function is to protect a community, they needed to be able to quickly and concisely explain the reasons one of their officers acted contrary to that duty. They have failed to do that and ensure the community that they're on the same side of finding justice. Let's also not forget that some of the outrage comes from the scene following, when Brown's body laid on the street for 4 hours after his death. I think if the killing of a black man was a high priority, the response time would have been minutes, not hours. I can't say that the same attention would have been paid to this tragedy without the protests (not looting, we know these are disgusting opportunists). In which case, I'd say they've been quite effective.

In this entire tragedy it has seemed like it's the people of Ferguson vs. the police. I'm not sure what the answer to calming the riots is. Answers and transparency would probably help.

[waggy]

Not suggesting unarmed is a lie. Sorry for the confusion. Saying it's hyperbole. It places in peoples minds that this was definitely an injustice. However that doesn't mean that the officer didn't need to do what he did. So people react to this definite injustice that isn't actually an injustice.

Execution style is a lie. Or at least incorrect understanding. Execution style is the back of the head.

This country's police departments are not designed to handle riots. They probably have little training, and they certainly have very little experience. I'm no fan of police aggression, but I also have some sympathy if they suck at riot control. I hope they never get good at riot control.

And you know that Brown's body being in the street for 4 hours while they investigate is out of the norm? Maybe it is. I don't know. Whatever the case I'm sure you see a cover up, while I see a cover their asses...

[Snipe]

When did it become a fact that Brown jumped the officer?

Link (http://www.hlntv.com/article/2014/08/15/ferguson-missouri-police-officer-name)


After the incident, Wilson was taken to a local hospital, where he was treated for a "swollen face," according to Ferguson Police Chief Tom Jackson. Jackson said he talked with the officer who was “very shaken” about what happened the day of the shooting.

WaPo link (http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/even-before-teen-michael-browns-slaying-in-mo-racial-questions-have-hung-over-police/2014/08/13/78b3c5c6-2307-11e4-86ca-6f03cbd15c1a_story.html)


The only update regarding the confrontation came Wednesday, when Jackson said that the officer’s “face was swollen” after the encounter, so he required medical treatment. Police have said that Brown was shot after a physical confrontation with the officer, including a struggle over the officer’s gun, which witnesses have disputed.

Guardian (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/15/ferguson-police-darren-wilson-michael-brown-shooting)


Jackson said on Friday the officer was treated for an injury sustained during his encounter with Brown. He had previously said that, following the incident, the officer had sustained a swollen face and was treated in hospital.


Now none of this makes it a fact that Brown jumped the officer. Personally, I think the officer is a member of the Ku Klux Klan, and that he attacked the gentle giant (who was about to start college) while he was praying. And Brown was only defending himself by giving the officer a swollen face.

This interaction seems to be pretty intimate to me. The eyewitness that testified to the Court of Youtube (our highest court) was also indicted on the Court of Youtube as the co-conspirator in the Cigarillo Shake Down. But even he and the friend of the officer agreed that the officer tried to get out of his car and the car door slammed back at him, and then a physical confrontation ensued.

The co-conspirator's Youtube testimony is kind of hilarious in retrospect, and the Cathedral Media Industrial Complex took it all in as straight from the horses mouth.

I would say that you really can't make this stuff up, but obviously he did on the fly. What is incredible is how his testimony became the Gospel of the new Cathedral as soon as he uttered the words.




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AlMjhoYPmZ8

Listen to his account now, think about it a week ago, think about it now, and come back a month from now.

He said the officer reached out the window with one hand, and grabbed a 6-4, 300 pound black man by his neck. That is impressive. I have always wanted to do that. I fantasize about doing that to black men but I am not racist though, I would love to reach out and grab Yao Ming and drag his yellow ass into my police vehicle too. Then he dragged him into the car, with that one arm. It is incredible the strength of that one arm.

Watch that video, it is hilarious.

Somehow, both in the co-conspirators depiction and the friend of the swollen face Cop's depiction we also have a gun shot that happened while the police officer was in the vehicle. Watch for that part too. And when our co-conspirator talks about the guy bleeding, I think he was talking about the cop. Watch that twice and get back to me on that. Am I wrong on the intuition? Could be. I am often wrong, but sometimes right.

Enjoy the Decline.

The Collapse Will Be Spectacular.

[NY44]

And you know that Brown's body being in the street for 4 hours while they investigate is out of the norm? Maybe it is. I don't know.

There was no evidence of an investigation taking place, the body was just laying there.

[waggy]

There was no evidence of an investigation taking place, the body was just laying there.


So since you can't make the racism charge stick, the new narrative is that the Ferguson PD is careless and/or incompetent. Someone else has to pay because Brown was thug.

My guess is that this is completely fabricated and/or a baseless accusation. You're familiar this those, no? But I'll be glad to concede the point if you can post something legit about it.

[NY44]

Oh, the officer had a swollen face? That settles it. Brown deserved to die.

So it's more likely that Brown just reached into a police car and reached for a gun? Ok. How do you know the gun wasn't in Brown's face when he went for it? Did Brown not make a knee jerk reaction to his life being threatened, like so many have said the officer had? Who started the confrontation and why? Did Brown flag down a police officer because he needed to grab a gun? Or did a hard ass cop overreact to a petty crime like jay-walking?

You know why accounts from eye-witnesses became Gospel? It's because all the police would admit was that Brown was shot "more than a couple of times, but not much more than that."

[Snipe]

There was no evidence of an investigation taking place, the body was just laying there.

I have seen footage of police tape around the scene while the body was laying there. I am going to show it to you. And you are an idiot to think that no investigation was taking place, by the way. They preserved the crime scene. If they just swept it away, I guess you would complain about that too....


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=prrydnTAly0

[waggy]

Oh, the officer had a swollen face? That settles it. Brown deserved to die.

So it's more likely that Brown just reached into a police car and reached for a gun? Ok. How do you know the gun wasn't in Brown's face when he went for it? Did Brown not make a knee jerk reaction to his life being threatened, like so many have said the officer had? Who started the confrontation and why? Did Brown flag down a police officer because he needed to grab a gun? Or did a hard ass cop overreact to a petty crime like jay-walking?

You know why accounts from eye-witnesses became Gospel? It's because all the police would admit was that Brown was shot "more than a couple of times, but not much more than that."


I don't know if Brown deserved to die, but he did for one of the following reasons:

a. Wilson was an asshole.
b. Brown was an asshole.
c. They both were assholes.

I've seen video of Brown being an asshole. It's either B or C.

[NY44]

I have seen footage of police tape around the scene while the body was laying there. I am going to show it to you. And you are an idiot to think that no investigation was taking place, by the way. They preserved the crime scene. If they just swept it away, I guess you would complain about that too....

Oh a couple of cops standing over a body, for four hours and tape!? Fantastic!

Riveting footage, they really look like they're gathering evidence. That's no investigation. How about an ambulance? Is covering the body up too much to ask? Some detectives?

Great news Snipe. You can buy crime scene tape on Amazon! Go have yourself an investigation, buddy! This is all you need. http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_2/188-0657227-1872840?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=police%20tape

[waggy]

And if they cleaned it up in an hour you'd say they were trying hide something.

What is the appropriate time crime scene investigator?

[NY44]

And if they cleaned it up in an hour you'd say they were trying hide something.

What is the appropriate time crime scene investigator?

Tough question. I'll go with anything between sweeping the body up without taking evidence and leaving it there for four hours.

What are you even arguing here? People were very upset about how they handled the response. If they're really investigating then they need to communicate that to the people. To you know, prevent them from being upset and riotting.

I really don't get what your end game is here. Is it that the people of Ferguson should quietly sit at home and trust the police department to do a fair investigation, even though a member of the department is responsible for the killing?

[Snipe]

Oh, the officer had a swollen face? That settles it. Brown deserved to die.

So it's more likely that Brown just reached into a police car and reached for a gun? Ok. How do you know the gun wasn't in Brown's face when he went for it? Did Brown not make a knee jerk reaction to his life being threatened, like so many have said the officer had? Who started the confrontation and why? Did Brown flag down a police officer because he needed to grab a gun? Or did a hard ass cop overreact to a petty crime like jay-walking?

You know why accounts from eye-witnesses became Gospel? It's because all the police would admit was that Brown was shot "more than a couple of times, but not much more than that."

How do you know the gun wasn't in Brown's face when he went for it

How do I know?

Well his best friend in the video above might give me a clue. He was the accomplice to the Cigarillo Strong-Arm Shake Down. He surely didn't advance that story. You can watch his partner (not saying he is gay, not that anything would be wrong with that, even if he is transgendered). He was the first and best eyewitness for even CNN. Look above this post to my previous post and realize that I provided his first person testimony for your perusal. That tip is for free. Watch it as many times as you want, and I will gladly pay all the charges.

How do I or you know that the officer didn't rape Mike Brown in the ass in the name of Hitler just for kicks? I don't know. And I don't know Mike Brown or the officer. I have weighed the competing testimonies though, and they don't mention Hitlerian ass rape. They do mention the struggle. They don't mention that the gun was in Brown's face when he went for it (which would be a bad move anyway).

So you are asking me how do I know about a scenario that neither the accused or the defense is currently pushing! Well to answer you honestly, I don't know. I don't know what happened. So maybe your theory of him drawing his weapon in the squad car is true. Maybe my theory of Adolph Hitler Ass Rape is true. But the thing is, his best friend in the shooting didn't advance your claim on CNN. But for my part, he never denied that his friend was Ass Raped in the name of Hitler, so I still got a shot at the jackpot.

How do you know we really exist? Have you ever really confronted the existential questions and pondered you own significance in the whole scheme of things? Why are we here? What if this is all your dream? What if this is the matrix?

[NY44]

How do you know the gun wasn't in Brown's face when he went for it

How do I know?

Well his best friend in the video above might give me a clue. He was the accomplice to the Cigarillo Strong-Arm Shake Down. He surely didn't advance that story. You can watch his partner (not saying he is gay, not that anything would be wrong with that, even if he is transgendered). He was the first and best eyewitness for even CNN. Look above this post to my previous post and realize that I provided his first person testimony for your perusal. That tip is for free. Watch it as many times as you want, and I will gladly pay all the charges.

How do I or you know that the officer didn't rape Mike Brown in the ass in the name of Hitler just for kicks? I don't know. And I don't know Mike Brown or the officer. I have weighed the competing testimonies though, and they don't mention Hitlerian ass rape. They do mention the struggle. They don't mention that the gun was in Brown's face when he went for it (which would be a bad move anyway).

So you are asking me how do I know about a scenario that neither the accused or the defense is currently pushing! Well to answer you honestly, I don't know. I don't know what happened. So maybe your theory of him drawing his weapon in the squad car is true. Maybe my theory of Adolph Hitler Ass Rape is true. But the thing is, his best friend in the shooting didn't advance your claim on CNN. But for my part, he never denied that his friend was Ass Raped in the name of Hitler, so I still got a shot at the jackpot.

How do you know we really exist? Have you ever really confronted the existential questions and pondered you own significance in the whole scheme of things? Why are we here? What if this is all your dream? What if this is the matrix?

You've mistaken my assignment. You need to answer all of those questions sufficiently before it's reasonable to assume that the officer acted correctly.

I think you and Waggy have deeply misconstrued what I'm arguing. I don't know or pretend to know what happened. I'm not willing to take videos of a victim being aggressive at a convenience store as proof that he is always aggressive and was when he was killed. I'm not willing to take anonymous counts from the cop's supposed friend as fact, especially not more than eye witness testimonies of people who have stood on national television. I'm not willing to say that 6'4 man can threaten the life of an armed police officer. It's not right to assume that based on someone's past and neighborhood that they can just be killed. A swollen face does not mean that there wasn't unnecessary aggression on the officer's part leading to that. It's not the duty of the people of Ferguson to answer these questions. The people needed assurance that an investigation is not favoring the police officer and they didn't get it. They needed answers and when they protested for them, they got riot gear and tear gas.

[waggy]

What are you even arguing here? People were very upset about how they handled the response. If they're really investigating then they need to communicate that to the people. To you know, prevent them from being upset and riotting.

I really don't get what your end game is here. Is it that the people of Ferguson should quietly sit at home and trust the police department to do a fair investigation, even though a member of the department is responsible for the killing?

Sit at home and trust the police department? Yes. That's exactly what I do every day.

They need to announce they are investigating? Seriously, you wonder about this? If the police department does not communicate sufficiently to your liking it's okay to riot? Either your IQ is subject, or you have an agenda.

[NY44]

Sit at home and trust the police department? Yes. That's exactly what I do every day.

They need to announce they are investigating? Seriously, you wonder about this? If the police department does not communicate sufficiently to your liking it's okay to riot? Either your IQ is subject, or you have an agenda.

Yes they do. Especially since this isn't just your average police shooting. My liking doesn't matter. It's the citizens of Ferguson that matter, clearly they're not convinced.

As I've said since my first post in the thread, instances of police aggression towards black men have been very frequent lately. Black communities have been given a lot of reasons to not trust police. Regardless if this distrust is right or wrong, they have the right to be angry and demand answers when stuff like this happens.

P.S. It really says it all that this entire discussion has taken place in a thread called "Rioting in StL" as if rioting is the issue here.

[waggy]

I think you and Waggy have deeply misconstrued what I'm arguing. I don't know or pretend to know what happened.

You sure seemed to have made up your mind for someone who doesn't pretend to know what happened.


I'm not willing to take videos of a victim being aggressive at a convenience store as proof that he is always aggressive and was when he was killed.

Any honest person in search of the real truth needs to keep an open mind. The convenience store footage is not definitive proof, but it says something.


I'm not willing to take anonymous counts from the cop's supposed friend as fact, especially not more than eye witness testimonies of people who have stood on national television.

I don't know of anyone put forth anonymous accounts as being credible? Snipe? I know argued about this earlier. Disregard it.


I'm not willing to say that 6'4 man can threaten the life of an armed police officer.

You are absolutely wrong. A police officer has a gun to protect himself and the public from a larger/more powerful person. They have the authority to possess and use the gun. This is no win argument for you.


It's not right to assume that based on someone's past and neighborhood that they can just be killed.

More hyperbole.


A swollen face does not mean that there wasn't unnecessary aggression on the officer's part leading to that.

No but it does probably mean he assaulted a police officer. But I guess in your world view that's perfectly okay.


It's not the duty of the people of Ferguson to answer these questions. The people needed assurance that an investigation is not favoring the police officer and they didn't get it. They needed answers and when they protested for them, they got riot gear and tear gas.

Out of consideration for your feelings I'm not going to respond to this right now.

[waggy]

Yes they do. Especially since this isn't just your average police shooting. My liking doesn't matter. It's the citizens of Ferguson that matter, clearly they're not convinced.

As I've said since my first post in the thread, instances of police aggression towards black men have been very frequent lately. Black communities have been given a lot of reasons to not trust police. Regardless if this distrust is right or wrong, they have the right to be angry and demand answers when stuff like this happens.

P.S. It really says it all that this entire discussion has taken place in a thread called "Rioting in StL" as if rioting is the issue here.


The issue could be a lack of trust. Since we're throwing theories around. Maybe it's just money and power. Maybe it's politics, which is the same thing. Maybe it's Swisher Sweets. Maybe it's a deep seated hatred of white people. Maybe it's a deep seated hatred of being broke all the time. Maybe it's all of the above and more.

[NY44]

The issue could be a lack of trust. Since we're throwing theories around. Maybe it's just money and power. Maybe it's politics, which is the same thing. Maybe it's Swisher Sweets. Maybe it's a deep seated hatred of white people. Maybe it's a deep seated hatred of being broke all the time. Maybe it's all of the above and more.

and maybe its systemic racism.

[waggy]

and maybe its systemic racism.

I have to confess I don't know what systemic means, and I don't feel like looking it up. If it is along the lines of pervasive, I'm partially on board. I view it as a natural thing. And it's colorblind.

[Juice]

You sure seemed to have made up your mind for someone who doesn't pretend to know what happened.



Any honest person in search of the real truth needs to keep an open mind. The convenience store footage is not definitive proof, but it says something.



I don't know of anyone put forth anonymous accounts as being credible? Snipe? I know argued about this earlier. Disregard it.



You are absolutely wrong. A police officer has a gun to protect himself and the public from a larger/more powerful person. They have the authority to possess and use the gun. This is no win argument for you.



More hyperbole.



No but it does probably mean he assaulted a police officer. But I guess in your world view that's perfectly okay.



Out of consideration for your feelings I'm not going to respond to this right now.

And this is where you are absolutely wrong. An officer cannot just shoot someone because they're bigger, that's called murder. An officer can only use deadly force if they or someone else is threatened by deadly force from the suspect. Officers also have other tools like a taser than can be used.

[XU 87]

A reporter is reporting that 12 people confirm the cop's story that this kid rushed him.

[bleedXblue]

This is not going to end well.

I see it getting much worse.

Kid tried to take the cops gun and assaults him. He tries to flee and is ordered to stop. He taunts the officer and then rushes him. I assume at that point, a guy of his size is pretty damn intimidating. I would also assume as a cop that he's going to try to take my gun again and possibly use it against me. Pretty hard at this point to put blame on the cop for at least firing a shot into his leg to try and stop him. Was shooting him 6 times warranted? I don't know how close the suspect came to him and if his life truly in danger. I don't envy the police in this case.......they have 2-3 seconds to make a decision and they are human. All of this is pretty damn sad considering the kid could have simply listened to the cop and avoided this whole mess.

[NY44]

I think the big unanswered question for me is if he was shot in the altercation at the car before he ran away. It seems a little odd that he would get shot, run away, and then turn around, taunt, and then rush the officer. Completely possible, but odd.

[xubrew]

Does anyone else think it's possible that Brown was a thug, and that the police are incompetent?? It's possible that both are true.

I don't find someone who goes into a convenience store and commits a strong armed robbery to be a sympathetic character. In fact, one could reasonably conclude that said person is a complete dick who could use a really good kick in the dick. But, I think someone can say that, and still feel that the police have sucked at handling this.

The shooting aside, which is A LOT to just set aside, the police have handled pretty much everything since then horribly. It is not unfair to suspect that they handle many other things horribly as well.