View Full Version : Good article about Miller Brothers
http://www.cincinnati.com/story/sports/college/xavier/2014/03/28/archie-miller-sean-miller-groomed-by-father/7012999/
Not sure if someone has posted or talked about this article, but it explains why the Miller brothers are so darn good. Something I knew a bit about and have mentioned before in one of my posts (since I grew up in Pittsburgh).
Sean and Archie had a great teacher in their dad (a phenomenal HS coach) who not only enforced effort but also focused on a few key areas using his own special tactics which he knew would lead to winning more games.
I loved Sean's approach with his players while at X: accepting nothing but total effort and excellence and quickly stepping in and making corrections when he did not get it.
I've felt for a while now that one of the main difference between Mack and (Sean) Miller (besides one of them having an elite HS coach as a father) is that Miller is ALWAYS in pursuit of excellence form his players and won't allow things like "a lack of effort" or foul shooting to be an excuse for why his team didn't play well in a game.
I really want Chris to read this Article. Maybe he can learn something from it. He's a solid coach and I'm sure he works his team hard in practice. It's just that there are specific issues that have plagued this team throughout the year and even for years. If he could recognize these issues and find effective ways to quickly fix them in practice, before a game, or even during the game, like Miller does, he would likely win 5 or more games a year.
Muskie
03-31-2014, 10:46 AM
http://www.cincinnati.com/story/sports/college/xavier/2014/03/28/archie-miller-sean-miller-groomed-by-father/7012999/
Not sure if someone has posted or talked about this article, but it explains why the Miller brothers are so darn good. Something I knew a bit about and have mentioned before in one of my posts (since I grew up in Pittsburgh).
Sean and Archie had a great teacher in there dad (a phenomenal HS coach) who not only enforced effort but also focused on a few key areas using his own special tactics which he knew would lead to winning more games.
I loved Sean's approach with his players while at X: excepting nothing but total effort and excellence and quickly stepping in and making corrections when he did not get it.
I've felt for a while now that one of the main difference between Mack and (Sean) Miller (besides one of them having an elite HS coach as a father) is that Miller is ALWAYS in pursuit of excellence form his players and won't allow things like "a lack of effort" or foul shooting to be an excuse for why his team didn't play well in a game.
I really want Chris to read this Article. Maybe he can learn something from it. He's a solid coach and I'm sure he works his team hard in practice. It's just that there are specific issues that have plagued this team throughout the year and even for years. If he could recognize these issues and find effective ways to quickly fix them in practice, before a game, or even during the game, like Miller does, he would likely win 5 or more games a year.
How do you know Mack doesn't do these things already?
How do you know Mack doesn't do these things already?
So then you are suggesting Mack does these things but has the inability to get through to his players and make them better (since most would agree there is a lack of effort and below average free throw shooting among other issues). Heck, even Mack has brought up a lack of effort... He has been know to say "You can't teach effort." A statement I believe Miller would disagree with.
Xman95
03-31-2014, 11:00 AM
So then you are suggesting Mack does these things but has the inability to get through to his players and make them better (since most would agree there is a lack of effort and below average free throw shooting among other issues). Heck, even Mack has brought up a lack of effort... He has been know to say "You can't teach effort." A statement I believe Miller would disagree with.
And Miller mentioned the same things. I remember a game when D.Brown put up good numbers and, after the game, Miller refused to give him credit and it was because he didn't think he gave max effort. So it's not like Miller is some guru on effort and he gets nothing but 100% at all times from his players. Do his teams play with great intensity? Usually. But they have down moments too. Just like X.
And Miller mentioned the same things. I remember a game when D.Brown put up good numbers and, after the game, Miller refused to give him credit and it was because he didn't think he gave max effort. So it's not like Miller is some guru on effort and he gets nothing but 100% at all times from his players. Do his teams play with great intensity? Usually. But they have down moments too. Just like X.
Not arguing with what you are saying. I am not saying Miler is perfect. Heck, even Coach K isn't perfect. But it would be hard to argue that Miller's teams have showed less effort than Mack's recently. And please, this is not about saying Mack isn't a good coach. I just see some little things not working so well at X that are working well with Miller at Arizona and worked well (after his first year) when at X... and I, as an X fan, just want our coach to keep getting better in all areas. I also remember Miller's first team at X was a bit lackadaisical with their passes and didn't always give complete effort... But Miller got it straightened out.... That's all I want from Mack... To keep getting better- for him and for us.
xubrew
03-31-2014, 11:27 AM
Mack was Miller's assistant. I don't think he's unfamiliar with his tactics.
Mack was Miller's assistant. I don't think he's unfamiliar with his tactics.
But does he use them (including the ones in the article)? Or is he mostly using Skip's tactics? Or is he just doing his own thing?
XUFan09
03-31-2014, 11:41 AM
How do you know Mack doesn't do these things already?
It amazes me how some fans think that some basic insight of theirs will be revelatory to a coach.
So then you are suggesting Mack does these things but has the inability to get through to his players and make them better (since most would agree there is a lack of effort and below average free throw shooting among other issues). Heck, even Mack has brought up a lack of effort... He has been know to say "You can't teach effort." A statement I believe Miller would disagree with.
Most would agree there was a lack of effort? If Justin Martin isn't living proof that Mack can teach effort, I'm not sure who is. I'm not sure what some people are seeing when they watch Xavier basketball games. I'm really not. Our team had some issues for damn sure. I watched every Xavier game twice this year. Every single one. Effort was not the issue with this team. We had a starting PF who can't jump higher than me, exactly zero reliable outside shooters, and several other talent deficiencies on both ends of the floor. Does anyone actually remember the Miller days? Not the big picture results, but the actual details of his five years? Do you guys not remember how good the players he had were? Have you guys seriously forgotten about the comical offensive droughts that those teams used to go through? Do you guys remember how these boards used to be up in arms over how Miller was incapable of calling a good play out of a timeout, among the many other complaints? Hell, apparently he was no Ron Everhart, even. Our fans spent nearly three years bitching about how much we missed Thad Matta, and then Sean had two good tournament runs, got paid by Arizona, and now is some folk legend who walks on water among all the X fans with short memories.
Understand that I'm playing devil's advocate to make a point here. I think Miller is an awesome coach. I was trying to tell people he was going to be an awesome coach when kids in the student section were yelling for him to be fired in 2006. My point is, a lot of you guys don't have a freaking clue what you're talking about when it comes to Mack. He isn't perfect, and we all want to see some changes in certain areas. The first of which is talent, and that is coming now, as long as the people at Xavier are smart enough to appreciate him more than some of our idiot fans. I PROMISE you all that if he left and had success somewhere else, everyone would have the same convenient memories looking back on him if, god forbid, our streak of hitting the jackpot in coaching searches ended. I would love to hear who some of you think we could actually get, with our cheap ass philosophy of paying coaches, who is better than Chris Mack. And then you can watch our program have about 6 scholarship players next year and start from scratch. Great idea.
Anyone can bitch and moan when we don't go to the Sweet 16 or beyond. I'd love to hear one intelligent take on a better alternative than the current path we're on.
Masterofreality
03-31-2014, 11:50 AM
Who cares?
They don't coach Xavier.
We all knew about the Raccoon's background/father when he coached here.
Not demeaning the original post or poster, but who cares?
Who cares?
They don't coach Xavier.
We all knew about the Raccoon's background/father when he coached here.
Not demeaning the original post or poster, but who cares?
Honestly... I care. That's why I posted it.
I'm not forcing you or anyone to read or care about the article. That's your prerogative.
I personally enjoyed it and thought others might as well.
Not everyone has to care that there might be something to two brothers who this year got to the elite eight. Some may think it is just a coincidence. I don't. Some may not care that both brothers are getting better and better - simply because they are not the current X coach.
As an X alum and as someone who is passionate about his school's basketball team, I see the relevance of following any coach who continues to be on an upward trajectory. I like to follow people who, in search of excellence, are getting better and I like learning about what helped them get there.
This thread was started to share an article I found interesting- about a past X coach, his brother and some of their coaching methods/ philosophies that have proven to help their teams get better and better. There is nothing wrong with wanting to get even better or wanting your coach or team to get even better.
Masterofreality
03-31-2014, 02:06 PM
Nah, I get it IM4,
But those guys are as dead to me as an overheated Lexus in the desert- other than being interested in their losses. Until the Tournament, didn't watch a second of Arizona basketball all year.
Nah, I get it IM4,
But those guys are as dead to me as an overheated Lexus in the desert- other than being interested in their losses. Until the Tournament, didn't watch a second of Arizona basketball all year.
I get where you are coming from.
boozehound
03-31-2014, 02:21 PM
Miller has had some Arizona teams that have failed to live up to their potential. Most recently: This year's team.
Regarding effort: I think that one of the shifts that happens when you go from primarily recruiting players out of the top 100 (and often out of top 150) to landing 4* and 5* recruits is that you start getting players that have not had to give maximum effort for a very long time. There is an adjustment required that the players don't often make right away (if at all). They aren't used to having to give 100% for every second they are in the game.
LA Muskie
03-31-2014, 02:36 PM
Not arguing with what you are saying. I am not saying Miler is perfect. Heck, even Coach K isn't perfect. But it would be hard to argue that Miller's teams have showed less effort than Mack's recently. And please, this is not about saying Mack isn't a good coach. I just see some little things not working so well at X that are working well with Miller at Arizona and worked well (after his first year) when at X... and I, as an X fan, just want our coach to keep getting better in all areas. I also remember Miller's first team at X was a bit lackadaisical with their passes and didn't always give complete effort... But Miller got it straightened out.... That's all I want from Mack... To keep getting better- for him and for us.
I like Miller. I think he's an outstanding coach. But he is far from perfect, and I can tell you a few "little things" that didn't work so well when he was at X (at least at times). For example, offense.
XUFan09
03-31-2014, 02:55 PM
This season I've seen two common ways that fans have decided the team lacked effort:
1) Shots aren't falling, so when the team falls behind, people say they aren't engaged or aren't giving enough effort. Never mind that it simply wasn't a good shooting team.
2) Players are getting beat on defense. Apparently defense is all about intensity and has nothing to do with physical ability and experience. Most players on the team were lacking in at least one of these latter attributes (and in a couple cases, both), whether it was Philmore not being quick enough to rotate properly or Reynolds missing a defensive assignment.
Once you account for these two common cases of fans incorrectly attributing a lack of intensity or effort to the team, the examples during the season dwindle. There are still examples of the team not being properly engaged or the team not giving a strong enough effort, but they occurred about as often as they occurred on other teams, including Miller's teams.
LA Muskie
03-31-2014, 02:57 PM
This season I've seen two common ways that fans have decided the team lacked effort:
1) Shots aren't falling, so when the team falls behind, people say they aren't engaged or aren't giving enough effort. Never mind that it simply wasn't a good shooting team.
2) Players are getting beat on defense. Apparently defense is all about intensity and has nothing to do with physical ability and experience. Most players on the team were lacking in at least one of these latter attributes (and in a couple cases, both), whether it was Philmore not being quick enough to rotate properly or Reynolds missing a defensive assignment.
Once you account for these two common cases of fans incorrectly attributing a lack of intensity or effort to the team, the examples during the season dwindle. There are still examples of the team not being properly engaged or the team not giving a strong enough effort, but they occurred about as often as they occurred on other teams, including Miller's teams.
Well said.
Regarding effort: I think that one of the shifts that happens when you go from primarily recruiting players out of the top 100 (and often out of top 150) to landing 4* and 5* recruits is that you start getting players that have not had to give maximum effort for a very long time. There is an adjustment required that the players don't often make right away (if at all). They aren't used to having to give 100% for every second they are in the game.
A valid notion. It would help explain the tenacity some of our teams brought in years past with recruits deemed "under the radar" who seemed to play like they always had something to prove.
Though, part of being a successful coach is knowing how to find the kind of elite recruits who are "all in" and will work hard to do whatever it takes for the team to play better. I'm hopeful Mack has found some of those recruits.
This season I've seen two common ways that fans have decided the team lacked effort:
1) Shots aren't falling...
2) Players are getting beat on defense...
Uh, how about players committing turnover after turnover with lackadaisical passes, or players that don't move or space themselves on offense.
XUFan09
03-31-2014, 03:30 PM
Uh, how about players committing turnover after turnover with lackadaisical passes, or players that don't move or space themselves on offense.
Their offensive spacing and movement was just fine. They had the 62nd ranked offense when they couldn't shoot the ball and didn't have a bunch of elite athletes. That's pretty impressive. As for passing, yes, they were careless at times, but that is not an issue of effort but rather an issue of focus and attention to the defense.
Masterofreality
03-31-2014, 04:09 PM
I like Miller. I think he's an outstanding coach. But he is far from perfect, and I can tell you a few "little things" that didn't work so well when he was at X (at least at times). For example, offense.
And another example was out of bounds plays. Ironic, maybe not really, that Arizona's season came down to a side out of bounds play that, because of the long review there was plenty of time to draw something up to get a respectable shot.
As it turns out, even if the shot that was taken had been made, it was after the buzzer. Pretty poor job.
When it comes to "specialty plays" CMack has it all over the Raccoon.
This season I've seen two common ways that fans have decided the team lacked effort:
1) Shots aren't falling, so when the team falls behind, people say they aren't engaged or aren't giving enough effort. Never mind that it simply wasn't a good shooting team.
2) Players are getting beat on defense. Apparently defense is all about intensity and has nothing to do with physical ability and experience. Most players on the team were lacking in at least one of these latter attributes (and in a couple cases, both), whether it was Philmore not being quick enough to rotate properly or Reynolds missing a defensive assignment.
Once you account for these two common cases of fans incorrectly attributing a lack of intensity or effort to the team, the examples during the season dwindle. There are still examples of the team not being properly engaged or the team not giving a strong enough effort, but they occurred about as often as they occurred on other teams, including Miller's teams.
Thank you. It has become a huge pet peeve of mine how some people will chalk up just about anything to effort/focus/coaching, as if it's our birth right to always have the best talent on the floor, thus anything we do wrong is due to us not caring enough. I saw this attitude way too much from the X fan base the last couple years and it's so silly. There were, simply put, some physical defensive issues with this team. It is, in my opinion, more due to a couple of recruiting classes that didn't work out too well that has caught up with us, than it is anything to do with in-game coaching or effort. Mack obviously needs to be held accountable for the roster he has on the floor, but I think we all know that there were a few things beyond his control that led to us being thinner than we should've been. It happens. It's happens to Hall of Fame coaches pretty much every year, in fact. And all indications are that this will not be an issue in the foreseeable future, as long as he stays. I certainly did not see a team that didn't care in any of his first five seasons. The last two years, I saw a very imperfect team that had to earn just about every win it got.
Uh, how about players committing turnover after turnover with lackadaisical passes, or players that don't move or space themselves on offense.
Yea, because committing turnovers is so unique to Chris Mack coached teams. It's not like Miller ever coached Dedrick Finn and Churchill Odia to a turnover every other possession. Hell, in his last year, how many people remember how much the doom and gloom crowd ragged on the Dante Jackson/Terrell Holloway duo at the point? Yea, there were times this year where turnovers were a big issue. I'm sure Chris Mack didn't pick up on that all year, as some of our astute message board coaches have. And spacing on offense? Again, how easily some forget about the pathetic offensive droughts that became an annual outrage among fans in the Miller years. If I weren't busy today I would try and go back and find some of the old gems about how Miller coached teams stand around too much and wait for the shot clock to burn down then launch a bad shot. These posts popped up EVERY YEAR. It was all Sean's fault that our offense ran into walls sometimes according to some. I thought they were as stupid then as they are now, because I believe Sean Miller was a good coach then, not just now that he's at Arizona, or the day after we win a Sweet 16 game.
I will ask again, I would love one of our gurus here to pitch a plan for our program going forward, without Chris Mack, that is anywhere near as promising as what we have ahead of us. He may not be John Wooden, but he's about as good a bargain as there is in coaching in my mind, and we aren't about to go overpay for anyone anytime soon. I mean, wow. Xavier fans. The grass is always greener with some people. And we wonder why we lose a coach every handful of years when we pay them like a mid-major and our fans constantly bitch about anything short of a Sweet 16.
When it comes to "specialty plays" CMack has it all over the Raccoon.
Mack could absolutely put on a clinic for Sean Miller in running out of bounds plays. I mean that. That's not to say he's a better overall coach, but the point is, people will find things to bitch about as long as they're looking for things to bitch about.
GoMuskies
03-31-2014, 04:25 PM
we wonder why we lose a coach every handful of years when we pay them like a mid-major and our fans constantly bitch about anything short of a Sweet 16.
Yes, Xavier fans are just so unreasonable. It's the reason all those Xavier head coaches have been on the hot seat over the years, including none in the last thirty years.
Yes, Xavier fans are just so unreasonable. It's the reason all those Xavier head coaches have been on the hot seat over the years, including none in the last thirty years.
Please. You don't think Prosser was "on the hot seat?" You don't think there were people yelling for Miller to be fired at home games his first two years? You do know that the coaches aren't completely oblivious to what the fans say, right? Remember when Thad Matta made the comment after we lost to OSU about how he was used to Xavier fans booing him because they did the same thing when he was coaching there? You remember when Chris Mack himself posted on this board? These guys hear the idiots who bitch about anything and everything. It's part of their job and shouldn't phase them too bad, but it's worse here because they are not being paid nearly as much as they could be at another school where it's easier to get recruits and basketball is not the only thing people care about, such as in Matta's case. It is well-known that Xavier is a very, very difficult place to please fans, and it's a difficult (perhaps impossible) place to be paid competitively. Xavier fans have unrealistic expectations. Everyone wants to have their cake and eat it too. I mean think about it. People go nuts when two coaches take a shit load more money to go to schools where it's easier to win, even when each time, we've made good hires afterwards. Then they bitch and moan about the next coach every time we don't make a deep run, until god forbid another program takes an interest in him, at which point they call him a greedy traitor who never really cared about us when he leaves. Do you find this reasonable?
Their offensive spacing and movement was just fine. They had the 62nd ranked offense when they couldn't shoot the ball and didn't have a bunch of elite athletes. That's pretty impressive. As for passing, yes, they were careless at times, but that is not an issue of effort but rather an issue of focus and attention to the defense.
Come on XUfan....
The offensive spacing was not always fine. It got better at times but often was not that good.
And the idea that poor passing is not an issue of effort but rather a lack of focus. Please.
Giving better effort is in part, focusing more on that thing you are doing... Whether that be passing the ball, shooting the ball, or stealing a ball.
I'm pretty sure Mack would agree with me on this point.
Listen, I'm just pointing out what worked well and what didn't. I am not a Mack hater and it gets a little tired seeing certain posters have issues with anyone who might see areas of the team that could stand improvement and take it as that person wanting the school to move on to another coach.
As I've mentioned before "No coach is perfect." But I want our coach to not only be aware of his team's shortcomings but show that he can fix them and in the process get better. I think we all want that from our coach. With so many new players coming in next year, I would honestly be happy to see Mack prove to be that coach.
GoMuskies
03-31-2014, 05:44 PM
Please. You don't think Prosser was "on the hot seat?"
No, Prosser was never in any danger whatsoever. That doesn't mean some (including me) weren't pleased when he decided to leave.
You don't think there were people yelling for Miller to be fired at home games his first two years?
I'm not sure. Do you think his job was ever ACTUALLY in any sort of danger?!?
Remember when Thad Matta made the comment after we lost to OSU about how he was used to Xavier fans booing him because they did the same thing when he was coaching there?
Yes. Thad got booed like once. And cheered like a lot. Thad is an asshat.
You remember when Chris Mack himself posted on this board? ?
Yes. Not sure what that has to do with anything, but I do recall him posting here.
It is well-known that Xavier is a very, very difficult place to please fans
Really? Well-known by whom? All the up and coming coaches who've so cruelly been forced to spend their formative years winning at Xavier before moving on higher paying jobs? Xavier fans are about as mild as it comes. I've never, EVER seen a sizeable group of Xavier fans calling for any coach to be fired. I can't say that about any other team I've ever followed.
People go nuts when two coaches take a shit load more money to go to schools where it's easier to win, even when each time, we've made good hires afterwards.
People don't like it when they get left. If Xavier is your favorite school, you might take it personally when someone doesn't want to be here. I might not necessarily blame the guys, but I'm going to boo them if they're coaching against Xavier, and I'm never going to wish them greater success elsewhere than they had at Xavier.
Do you find this reasonable?
Xavier has won for thirty years. Of course people expect Xavier to win. In 1982, if Xavier fans had high expectations, it would be completely unreasonable. In 2014, the head coach of Xavier should win and win big. They just should. He doesn't have to win big every year, but he shouldn't ever have a BAD team. I don't find anything at all unreasonable about that. Xavier's salary's not competitive? OK, well we've got this nice little three to seven year plan that's worked out real well for these guys named Staak, Gillen, Prosser, Matta and Miller.
Listen, I'm just pointing out what worked well and what didn't. I am not a Mack hater and it gets a little tired seeing certain posters have issues with anyone who might see areas of the team that could stand improvement and take it as that person wanting the school to move on to another coach.
As I've mentioned before "No coach is perfect." But I want our coach to not only be aware of his team's shortcomings but show that he can fix them and in the process get better. I think we all want that from our coach. With so many new players coming in next year, I would honestly be happy to see Mack prove to be that coach.
I'm not sure, off the top of my head, who has any issues with anyone who want to reasonably or fairly criticize a coaching tactic, decisions, strategy, etc. What I take issue with are the things I mentioned. The misconception that Miller and Matta walked on water even though that was not the general tone until after they left. The idea that Mack's teams don't give effort, which you did mention, is by far my biggest pet peeve. We're all obviously rooting for whoever is here to be an awesome coach. I believe we already have a very good coach who is only getting better, and taking this program further, and if we lose him to a program like Wake Forest (not an Arizona or OSU, but a program which has the ceiling of being the third best in its own state, and probably sixth best in its own conference) I will be hard-pressed not to believe its due to something that could have been prevented, and that would really bother me.
No, Prosser was never in any danger whatsoever. That doesn't mean some (including me) weren't pleased when he decided to leave.
I'm not sure. Do you think his job was ever ACTUALLY in any sort of danger?!?
Yes. Thad got booed like once. And cheered like a lot. Thad is an asshat.
Yes. Not sure what that has to do with anything, but I do recall him posting here.
Really? Well-known by whom? All the up and coming coaches who've so cruelly been forced to spend their formative years winning at Xavier before moving on higher paying jobs? Xavier fans are about as mild as it comes. I've never, EVER seen a sizeable group of Xavier fans calling for any coach to be fired. I can't say that about any other team I've ever followed.
People don't like it when they get left. If Xavier is your favorite school, you might take it personally when someone doesn't want to be here. I might not necessarily blame the guys, but I'm going to boo them if they're coaching against Xavier, and I'm never going to wish them greater success elsewhere than they had at Xavier.
Xavier has won for thirty years. Of course people expect Xavier to win. In 1982, if Xavier fans had high expectations, it would be completely unreasonable. In 2014, the head coach of Xavier should win and win big. They just should. He doesn't have to win big every year, but he shouldn't ever have a BAD team. I don't find anything at all unreasonable about that. Xavier's salary's not competitive? OK, well we've got this nice little three to seven year plan that's worked out real well for these guys named Staak, Gillen, Prosser, Matta and Miller.
Go, I am not really in the mood to nitpick, but my response was to the sarcastic comments that our coaches were not on the hot seat because Xavier FANS were so unreasonable. I'm not suggesting that any of our coaches were close to being fired. What I am suggesting is that we have a lot of irrational fans (perhaps the minority but they're a damn vocal minority) who are impossible to please, and if they had their way, those coaches all would've been on the hot seat at some point. Your fourth paragraph kind of proves the point. These coaches have spent their formative years at Xavier and have been damn successful all things considering, and we've gotten them all for bargains in comparison to what other programs tend to pay for the kind of success we've had, yet it's still not good enough for so many. Hell yea Xavier fans should expect the program to be in great shape. But when shit hits the fan and you lose your two best returning players, and a couple of recruiting classes don't pan out, and you enter a new conference, and several of the other things that have happened over the last couple years, missing one postseason isn't the end of the world. It sucks, and I'd rather it had just been smooth sailings, but that isn't reasonable whether you're a Xavier fan or a Duke fan. It sure seems to me that much of our fan base is pretty damned fragile when you consider that one down year followed by another year that was at least on par with expectations causes so many fans to think we have some coach who doesn't know what he's doing, even though he made two Sweet 16s and three tournaments in his first three years, and has an awesome class coming in. Between this board, and a shit load of my Facebook friends who are even more irrational than most here, it's just so fucking annoying to deal with the stupidity of people who have no clue what they're talking about. And I say this as not some Mack apologist, because I've had my concerns too, but it's gotten ridiculous over the past couple years.
As for the salary issues, I know you're not naive enough to think we're not taking a huge risk if the plan really is to just keep finding a new coach every three to seven years. We will most likely never be able to keep a coach once a truly elite, high paying job comes, but if, in 2014, after 30 years of success, we lose our third coach in that span to Wake Fucking Forest, because we cannot give our guy a top 8 contract in the Big East, that's a big problem. I don't think that is going to happen, but the way we (don't) pay coaches is an issue if we want to continue on the path of being a power program. Losing Mack this year would leave us with, by my best guess, between 6 and 8 scholarship players next year, before you start giving rides to guys like Landon Amos/Erik Stenger. That's another two years AT LEAST of serious rebuilding, and probably BAD teams that you and I agree are not acceptable at Xavier. I just find it amazing that there is a general tone amongst so many of, "I'd be kind of indifferent to losing Mack," as if we'd have even a chance of bringing in the class we just signed and keeping everyone on the current roster, and then finding a better coach to seamlessly keep things moving forward.
Finally, I agree people don't like it when they get left. It sucks. It probably also sucks when you are an alum of the school and program you coach and you hear the buzz of the fan base shitting on you after a pretty damn impressive five year start to your career. That, along with what could be spun as an insulting (relatively) salary, wouldn't make me feel terribly appreciated. That's my point when I mentioned he's posted on this board, as well as his other social media stuff. I also know for a fact that at least one other member of the staff religiously reads the X message boards. The shit people ignorantly ramble comes back to them. I know it's in their job description to have thick skin, but we aren't exactly doing ourselves any favors as fans by hating on the guy as I can promise you many have. So yes, I do think it's unreasonable that there is such an, at best, indifferent attitude towards him after a season in which we at least met expectations, given everything else he's done and is doing. You're never going to please everyone, but I'm surprised how few he's been able to please overall.
XUFan09
03-31-2014, 08:47 PM
Come on XUfan....
The offensive spacing was not always fine. It got better at times but often was not that good.
And the idea that poor passing is not an issue of effort but rather a lack of focus. Please.
Giving better effort is in part, focusing more on that thing you are doing... Whether that be passing the ball, shooting the ball, or stealing a ball.
I'm pretty sure Mack would agree with me on this point.
Listen, I'm just pointing out what worked well and what didn't. I am not a Mack hater and it gets a little tired seeing certain posters have issues with anyone who might see areas of the team that could stand improvement and take it as that person wanting the school to move on to another coach.
As I've mentioned before "No coach is perfect." But I want our coach to not only be aware of his team's shortcomings but show that he can fix them and in the process get better. I think we all want that from our coach. With so many new players coming in next year, I would honestly be happy to see Mack prove to be that coach.
Lol you keep pushing a lazy narrative yet tell me to "Come on."
The spacing was generally fine. It had flaws just like any offense, but the issue was that defenders would often play off Xavier players, because once again, they couldn't shoot. Poor shooting is ruinous to spacing, but there's not much you can do about that strategy-wise except hope your players start making shots they should make (Myles and Farr didn't) or recruit better shooters (Like the 2014 class).
Effort and focus are most definitely distinct. Just look at Jeff Robinson, the epitome of a good effort without the proper focus. It's been discussed here before, but focus is a skill, developed partly through experience, but in the end some people have "it" more than others. Now, Robinson did finally display more consistent focus, but it took until the last half or so of his senior year for that to really materialize. Are effort and focus at times interconnected? Sure, but so is everything else on the basketball court. That doesn't give you the excuse to be reductionist. For example, a player not hauling ass around a screen is an issue of effort. A player not waiting until the screen is properly set or not cutting the corner of the screen well is an issue of focus.
danaandvictory
03-31-2014, 08:57 PM
This season I've seen two common ways that fans have decided the team lacked effort:
1) Shots aren't falling, so when the team falls behind, people say they aren't engaged or aren't giving enough effort. Never mind that it simply wasn't a good shooting team.
2) Players are getting beat on defense. Apparently defense is all about intensity and has nothing to do with physical ability and experience. Most players on the team were lacking in at least one of these latter attributes (and in a couple cases, both), whether it was Philmore not being quick enough to rotate properly or Reynolds missing a defensive assignment.
Once you account for these two common cases of fans incorrectly attributing a lack of intensity or effort to the team, the examples during the season dwindle. There are still examples of the team not being properly engaged or the team not giving a strong enough effort, but they occurred about as often as they occurred on other teams, including Miller's teams.
It really wasn't about effort. The team isn't trying is what you tell yourself when you don't want to accept the team sucks.
Forty losses in three years is not an effort issue.
D-West & PO-Z
03-31-2014, 09:05 PM
What was this thread about? Some brothers? Chris Mack's brothers? ........
Huh?
XUFan09
03-31-2014, 09:10 PM
It really wasn't about effort. The team isn't trying is what you tell yourself when you don't want to accept the team sucks.
Forty losses in three years is not an effort issue.
Yup.
Sent from my DROID RAZR HD using Tapatalk
MADXSTER
03-31-2014, 09:21 PM
This season I've seen two common ways that fans have decided the team lacked effort:
1) Shots aren't falling, so when the team falls behind, people say they aren't engaged or aren't giving enough effort. Never mind that it simply wasn't a good shooting team.
2) Players are getting beat on defense. Apparently defense is all about intensity and has nothing to do with physical ability and experience. Most players on the team were lacking in at least one of these latter attributes (and in a couple cases, both), whether it was Philmore not being quick enough to rotate properly or Reynolds missing a defensive assignment.
Once you account for these two common cases of fans incorrectly attributing a lack of intensity or effort to the team, the examples during the season dwindle. There are still examples of the team not being properly engaged or the team not giving a strong enough effort, but they occurred about as often as they occurred on other teams, including Miller's teams.
Sorry but I've got to jump in here. My daughter plays HS basketball. I love watching the game with her because she is a student of the game. Many times that Reynolds was picking up a foul was due to Stainbrook missing an assignment or not getting back and Reynolds had to pull off his guy and cover. Her least favorite player was Stainbrook because he was out of position so often. She would stop the game, rewind and show me what I had missed and she was ALWAYS right. Is Reynolds green, absolutely. I'm not trying to call Stainbrook out but Reynolds wasn't entirely at fault for the fouls he picked up.
XUFan09
03-31-2014, 09:28 PM
Oh yeah, Stain is definitely a worse defender than Reynolds. I was just using Reynolds as an example of inexperience, because he was far from perfect himself.
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Masterofreality
03-31-2014, 09:56 PM
Sorry but I've got to jump in here. My daughter plays HS basketball. I love watching the game with her because she is a student of the game. Many times that Reynolds was picking up a foul was due to Stainbrook missing an assignment or not getting back and Reynolds had to pull off his guy and cover. Her least favorite player was Stainbrook because he was out of position so often. She would stop the game, rewind and show me what I had missed and she was ALWAYS right. Is Reynolds green, absolutely. I'm not trying to call Stainbrook out but Reynolds wasn't entirely at fault for the fouls he picked up.
Stain shouldn't be hedging. I said it all year. That was a coaching decision that I disagreed with on the defensive strategy.
MADXSTER
03-31-2014, 10:06 PM
Stain shouldn't be hedging. I said it all year. That was a coaching decision that I disagreed with on the defensive strategy.
The not rotating and missing assignments had nothing to do with hedging. At least with what was pointed out to me.
GoMuskies
03-31-2014, 11:43 PM
Go, I am not really in the mood to nitpick, but my response was to the sarcastic comments that our coaches were not on the hot seat because Xavier FANS were so unreasonable. I'm not suggesting that any of our coaches were close to being fired. What I am suggesting is that we have a lot of irrational fans (perhaps the minority but they're a damn vocal minority) who are impossible to please, and if they had their way, those coaches all would've been on the hot seat at some point. Your fourth paragraph kind of proves the point. These coaches have spent their formative years at Xavier and have been damn successful all things considering, and we've gotten them all for bargains in comparison to what other programs tend to pay for the kind of success we've had, yet it's still not good enough for so many. Hell yea Xavier fans should expect the program to be in great shape. But when shit hits the fan and you lose your two best returning players, and a couple of recruiting classes don't pan out, and you enter a new conference, and several of the other things that have happened over the last couple years, missing one postseason isn't the end of the world. It sucks, and I'd rather it had just been smooth sailings, but that isn't reasonable whether you're a Xavier fan or a Duke fan. It sure seems to me that much of our fan base is pretty damned fragile when you consider that one down year followed by another year that was at least on par with expectations causes so many fans to think we have some coach who doesn't know what he's doing, even though he made two Sweet 16s and three tournaments in his first three years, and has an awesome class coming in. Between this board, and a shit load of my Facebook friends who are even more irrational than most here, it's just so fucking annoying to deal with the stupidity of people who have no clue what they're talking about. And I say this as not some Mack apologist, because I've had my concerns too, but it's gotten ridiculous over the past couple years.
As for the salary issues, I know you're not naive enough to think we're not taking a huge risk if the plan really is to just keep finding a new coach every three to seven years. We will most likely never be able to keep a coach once a truly elite, high paying job comes, but if, in 2014, after 30 years of success, we lose our third coach in that span to Wake Fucking Forest, because we cannot give our guy a top 8 contract in the Big East, that's a big problem. I don't think that is going to happen, but the way we (don't) pay coaches is an issue if we want to continue on the path of being a power program. Losing Mack this year would leave us with, by my best guess, between 6 and 8 scholarship players next year, before you start giving rides to guys like Landon Amos/Erik Stenger. That's another two years AT LEAST of serious rebuilding, and probably BAD teams that you and I agree are not acceptable at Xavier. I just find it amazing that there is a general tone amongst so many of, "I'd be kind of indifferent to losing Mack," as if we'd have even a chance of bringing in the class we just signed and keeping everyone on the current roster, and then finding a better coach to seamlessly keep things moving forward.
Finally, I agree people don't like it when they get left. It sucks. It probably also sucks when you are an alum of the school and program you coach and you hear the buzz of the fan base shitting on you after a pretty damn impressive five year start to your career. That, along with what could be spun as an insulting (relatively) salary, wouldn't make me feel terribly appreciated. That's my point when I mentioned he's posted on this board, as well as his other social media stuff. I also know for a fact that at least one other member of the staff religiously reads the X message boards. The shit people ignorantly ramble comes back to them. I know it's in their job description to have thick skin, but we aren't exactly doing ourselves any favors as fans by hating on the guy as I can promise you many have. So yes, I do think it's unreasonable that there is such an, at best, indifferent attitude towards him after a season in which we at least met expectations, given everything else he's done and is doing. You're never going to please everyone, but I'm surprised how few he's been able to please overall.
1) I think you're crazy if you believe Xavier has a larger segment of unreasonable fans that basically any other successful program. Maybe there's some bitching here and there, but by and large Xavier fans are pussycats. Again, I've NEVER seen even a significant portion of the fanbase pulling for a coach to be kicked to the curb. Not once in 20 years. If that's a fanbase that's too difficult to please, a coach should get into a new line of work. You may be underpaid, but if you can't handle a little bit of grumbling with your million dollar salary, those are your issues and not the fanbase's. I have no idea what you're Facebook feed feels like, but if you're complaining about THIS board, I have no idea what you're talking about. This place would struggle to be more tame.
2) On salary, I of course think we're taking a huge risk if we don't give Mack a bump. However, if the money issues we're hearing about are real, then we're also taking a huge risk if we guarantee Mack 5 or 6 years with a $600k bump. The last thing we want to have happen is be in a situation like DePaul where it's obvious to everyone that a change needs to be made, and we simply cannot afford to make the change. I'm not saying that I expect that to happen, but I also think it's pretty naïve to think we're not taking a huge risk by paying Mack a bunch of money when the budget is (apparently) tight. I think Xavier needs to financially commit to keeping a coach. I'm just not sure yet if Mack is the guy. It's up to Christopher to make that choice, and he spends a lot more time with Mack and the program than any of us. If he thinks Mack is the guy and pushes to give him the necessary bump, I think that's a great sign. If he's not sure the Athletic Department should be devoting those sorts of resources to Mack yet...well, I get that, too.
3) I think it's pretty damned strong to say that the fans are shitting on Mack at this point. Actually, I think it's downright incorrect to say that. There are varying opinions, but other than a few outliers (who exist at every quality program), the worst you generally here is ambivalence. The member of the staff who religiously reads this site should probably do something more productive with his time (glass houses and all that, I know). Has the five year stretch been "pretty damned impressive"? Maybe. But the trend has certainly not been in the right direction. The recruits seem to be in place to turn that around, but our best player is gone, and we all know that counting on freshmen is an iffy proposition (when you're not Kentucky). Some people may want to see Mack build a good team that he actually recruited (as head coach) before they're quite as sold on Mack as MOR. If the staff member reading this (hello!) doesn't think that's fair, then they probably wouldn't think their treatment is fair at any successful program.
1) I think you're crazy if you believe Xavier has a larger segment of unreasonable fans that basically any other successful program. Maybe there's some bitching here and there, but by and large Xavier fans are pussycats. Again, I've NEVER seen even a significant portion of the fanbase pulling for a coach to be kicked to the curb. Not once in 20 years. If that's a fanbase that's too difficult to please, a coach should get into a new line of work. You may be underpaid, but if you can't handle a little bit of grumbling with your million dollar salary, those are your issues and not the fanbase's. I have no idea what you're Facebook feed feels like, but if you're complaining about THIS board, I have no idea what you're talking about. This place would struggle to be more tame.
2) On salary, I of course think we're taking a huge risk if we don't give Mack a bump. However, if the money issues we're hearing about are real, then we're also taking a huge risk if we guarantee Mack 5 or 6 years with a $600k bump. The last thing we want to have happen is be in a situation like DePaul where it's obvious to everyone that a change needs to be made, and we simply cannot afford to make the change. I'm not saying that I expect that to happen, but I also think it's pretty naïve to think we're not taking a huge risk by paying Mack a bunch of money when the budget is (apparently) tight. I think Xavier needs to financially commit to keeping a coach. I'm just not sure yet if Mack is the guy. It's up to Christopher to make that choice, and he spends a lot more time with Mack and the program than any of us. If he thinks Mack is the guy and pushes to give him the necessary bump, I think that's a great sign. If he's not sure the Athletic Department should be devoting those sorts of resources to Mack yet...well, I get that, too.
3) I think it's pretty damned strong to say that the fans are shitting on Mack at this point. Actually, I think it's downright incorrect to say that. There are varying opinions, but other than a few outliers (who exist at every quality program), the worst you generally here is ambivalence. The member of the staff who religiously reads this site should probably do something more productive with his time (glass houses and all that, I know). Has the five year stretch been "pretty damned impressive"? Maybe. But the trend has certainly not been in the right direction. The recruits seem to be in place to turn that around, but our best player is gone, and we all know that counting on freshmen is an iffy proposition (when you're not Kentucky). Some people may want to see Mack build a good team that he actually recruited (as head coach) before they're quite as sold on Mack as MOR. If the staff member reading this (hello!) doesn't think that's fair, then they probably wouldn't think their treatment is fair at any successful program.
I'm not sure what you think I'm arguing. I said the fans who bitch and moan the most may well be in the minority, but they exist and they are annoying. They are who I'm referring to when I say I'm annoyed, not the rational Xavier fans or the Kentucky fans or the UNC fans. Not really sure what you're trying to argue. That there are rational X fans too? Because I agree. In any case, the negative people on this board and in other outlets, as is often the case, are the more vocal of the fan base. Are you seriously telling me there hasn't been a ton of negativity and disapproval of Mack the last couple years on this board alone? You are here as often as anyone so I'm shocked you haven't noticed it. The only other program I follow closely and have strong ties to is Maryland. Their coach, Mark Turgeon, doesn't seem to generate near as much negativity even though he hasn't been anywhere near as successful at UMD as Mack has been at X. People constantly make excuses (some valid) for why he hasn't been able to resurrect the program. It's what you hear a lot more often than the whole, "I don't think he's our guy" still. Maybe I'm too close to the program where he still has support, but between that, my MD friends, and sports talk radio (I don't frequent their message boards), he seems to get a lot more of a free pass. And for the record, I think Turgeon is a decent coach but I do think he's getting close to the point where that tide will change, but if Xavier had his results, his approval rating would be about a zero with this crowd. I really think you're underselling the excessiveness of the expectations of Xavier fans. Every year we don't make a run we get a ton of the "sky is falling" bullshit. We're a much, much smaller fan base than a UK or UNC, so to compare the reactions of the fan bases is apples to oranges anyway.
As for salary, I think you need to weigh the two scenarios a lot differently. Let's assume for a second that Mack is willing to turn down Wake if Xavier is willing to pay him. In your scenario, we take the "huge risk" of, let's use your numbers, 5 or 6 years for another $600k. What we have bought with that, in the immediate sense, is a good returning team rather than a complete overhaul. Essentially, a bright future from a talent perspective over the almost certain reset button we would need to hit, which would cost us at least two years of halfway decent basketball if we're lucky. If you think Matta left the cupboard bare, imagine losing mots if not all of a 5-6 kid class, a fifth year senior, and who knows what else. This is FAR more likely than the majority of those guys sticking around for sure. This is just what we can almost certainly guarantee, before you even get into the opinion that I hope many share with me, which is that investing in Chris Mack is a very good investment for the program going forward. Now I understand that Xavier has financial issues, but the reality is, if they won't, or can't pay him and he does leave this offseason, this is what we're left with. Good luck generating more revenue for the program the next few years if that happens. Now is this an immediate financial "risk" in the sense that we might not be in the best position to be spending that much? Perhaps, and I won't pretend to be an expert on the program or school's finances. But how does that weigh in comparison to the loss of revenue we might suffer if we do have to start all over from scratch? THAT is the only scenario where we risk turning into a DePaul, not if we up Mack to, what, 2/3 of what Purnell is making? I think the decision is more clear than people are making it, even though I do think Christopher is weighing the options you note.
If you need, I can pull up enough citations of fans downright shitting on Mack as you can handle. We can debate all offseason over how good a coach he is and will be, and that debate will go nowhere, but you can't tell me there hasn't been a ton of criticism directed toward him thus far. I would absolutely disagree with your notion that he is trending downward. I think that's very wrong. He was doing just fine (albeit with mostly Sean's recruits) before he faced some very real, very serious issues with an administration and certain group who took issue with certain elements of our program and its image. If you think Sean and Thad had to deal with some of the things he did in that regard, post brawl, you're nuts. The low point was, unsurprisingly, last year, and that was right after he faced issues completely out of his control. Since then, things have seemed to ascend upwards to me. We finished third in a new conference, returned to the tournament, and now have what looks like an unprecedented class coming in. How exactly can you argue the trend hasn't been in the right direction?
My main thing is, I'm not condemning anyone for not being sold on Mack yet. We could argue that forever. I do think those people are not looking at all the factors involved but whatever. But I'm annoyed by the people who think Miller is just the greatest thing since sliced bread while Mack is regressing us, because I think they're wrong and they tend to be very loud about something which I think they don't know what they're really talking about. And I think it is beyond obvious that we are much better off paying Mack than losing him, whatever other risked may be involved. I think we are far more likely to lose him to a bigger program that buys him out than we are to ever have to "put up" with him, and I don't think it's remotely close. I think we can all agree that I hope we make a great run soon, in small part because I can't wait to see some of these fools compliment the coaching staff for something they apparently will have just learned, magically, after they got some better talent in house.
GoMuskies
04-01-2014, 01:22 AM
I guess I'm wondering why you're even mentioning the serious negative nellies. Everyone has them, and I really don't notice them here as much as I do for other fan bases. I don't think it's worth getting frustrated over something that is a fact of life. If a staff member is upset because sweet16 with 30 red dots thinks Chris Mack sucks, I think that's bizarre.
I know that we'd probably have a bit of a rebuilding project if Mack goes now, and I definitely don't WANT him to go. But until recently I had no idea that Xavier was apparently so broke. So you may think it's obvious that paying Mack is the way to go, but I don't think it's NEARLY so clear IF we don't have the means to also buy him out and replace him in the unlikely event that is necessary. I just don't have enough information to have a strong opinion on which is the right way to go, and I don't envy Christopher the difficult choice.
On the trend, I only meant the trend from his first two years to the last three. Yes, the third year was a Sweet 16 appearance, and I was thrilled, but that year was obviously kind of a mess overall. Not all (and hell, maybe not any) Mack's doing, but it was a mess nonetheless with a pretty satisfying ending. Then the last two years. I'm with you that it looks like we should start moving strongly in the right direction next year, but I'd like to see these studs in a Xavier uni before I know for sure we've turned the corner.
In any event, whether it's with Mack or without Mack (and hopefully it's with Mack), I think we'll be fine. This is Xavier. We win here.
XUFan09
04-01-2014, 03:39 AM
The not rotating and missing assignments had nothing to do with hedging. At least with what was pointed out to me.
Agreed, it had nothing to do with hedging. Stainbrook simply isn't a good defender. It's probably multi-faceted: (1) lack of athleticism/speed, (2) first season of in-game experience at the high D1 level, where players always seem to adjust to new demands, and (3) limits to defensive awareness in the first place.
The first one obviously can't be improved too much; he already lost the necessary weight. The third one is one he could mildly improve upon, though I'm not holding out hope for anything significant. The second one involves the most room for improvement, but in the end, Stainbrook is proably going to be one of the weaker defenders on the court at any one time.
Masterofreality
04-01-2014, 07:41 AM
I'll have to go back and review games. You guys might be right, but making him hedge, sure didn't help him stay in a position.
A center is supposed to patrol the paint, not get out on outside shooters.
I'm not sure, off the top of my head, who has any issues with anyone who want to reasonably or fairly criticize a coaching tactic, decisions, strategy, etc. What I take issue with are the things I mentioned. The misconception that Miller and Matta walked on water even though that was not the general tone until after they left. The idea that Mack's teams don't give effort, which you did mention, is by far my biggest pet peeve. We're all obviously rooting for whoever is here to be an awesome coach. I believe we already have a very good coach who is only getting better, and taking this program further, and if we lose him to a program like Wake Forest (not an Arizona or OSU, but a program which has the ceiling of being the third best in its own state, and probably sixth best in its own conference) I will be hard-pressed not to believe its due to something that could have been prevented, and that would really bother me.
First, I did not mention ALL of Mack's Teams don't give effort. But there where a number of times throughout different games this year where his team did not show great effort. Even Mack has mentioned it in his post game remarks. Why on earth should pointing out that fact -when I hear others saying it is not an issue- be such a pet peeve of yours. Lack of effort leads to games being lost. If X had more effort throughout many of their games (they often had issues at the beginning but also through stretches in the second half) they would have won more. Again, Mack has agreed with this observation.
You've also mentioned in another reply you were concerned with what people were saying because Mack (or was it his staff) reads the posts. I sure hope he and his staff do. Sure, he may get some people saying unreasonably unkind things about him the way some do about all coaches. But he and his coaches will also find some smart and reasonable comments that are fair, mostly supportive, and at times keeping a coach honest (by that I mean bringing up reasonable and mostly objective observations about the team and their play that may happen to be positive or negative- but are never intended to put anyone down including the coach or any players).
Though, it seems to be fair game for some posters on this board to call other posters "idiots" (which you have done more than once) or put them done for their observations or opinions It also seems fair game to put down a kid on the team (and these are kids- who probably read through posts here too) and say things like "they suck, "they couldn't hit the side of house with the basketball" or even wish them to transfer off the team. But god forbid if anyone should suggest that the coach (an adult) may need to work on something a little bit more with the team. That's just completely uncalled for. And by doing so you might hurt the feelings of the current coach and get labeled someone who is clueless enough to think past coaches were Flawless at X... Oh and of course someone who wants to get rid of the current coach, right.
If we really want to try to come together as Xavier fans and Alumni and show united support for our school, then why not make it off limits to say any mean spirited comments specifically directed at any posters, X player, or X coach (maybe we could let negative comments about past coaches slide).
First, I did not mention ALL of Mack's Teams don't give effort. But there where a number of times throughout different games this year where his team did not show great effort. Even Mack has mentioned it in his post game remarks. Why on earth should pointing out that fact -when I hear others saying it is not an issue- be such a pet peeve of yours. Lack of effort leads to games being lost. If X had more effort throughout many of their games (they often had issues at the beginning but also through stretches in the second half) they would have won more. Again, Mack has agreed with this observation.
You've also mentioned in another reply you were concerned with what people were saying because Mack (or was it his staff) reads the posts. I sure hope he and his staff do. Sure, he may get some people saying unreasonably unkind things about him the way some do about all coaches. But he and his coaches will also find some smart and reasonable comments that are fair, mostly supportive, and at times keeping a coach honest (by that I mean bringing up reasonable and mostly objective observations about the team and their play that may happen to be positive or negative- but are never intended to put anyone down including the coach or any players).
Though, it seems to be fair game for some posters on this board to call other posters "idiots" (which you have done more than once) or put them done for their observations or opinions It also seems fair game to put down a kid on the team (and these are kids- who probably read through posts here too) and say things like "they suck, "they couldn't hit the side of house with the basketball" or even wish them to transfer off the team. But god forbid if anyone should suggest that the coach (an adult) may need to work on something a little bit more with the team. That's just completely uncalled for. And by doing so you might hurt the feelings of the current coach and get labeled someone who is clueless enough to think past coaches were Flawless at X... Oh and of course someone who wants to get rid of the current coach, right.
If we really want to try to come together as Xavier fans and Alumni and show united support for our school, then why not make it off limits to say any mean spirited comments specifically directed at any posters, X player, or X coach (maybe we could let negative comments about past coaches slide).
There is a big difference between Mack ripping effort in a post game presser and the implication you had that effort was this team's problem this year, and that that is all on Mack as a coach. Every coach, even the ones with the best teams, make comments about effort at some point(s) throughout the season. That's a far cry from the idea that our team just didn't bring it this season. I hope you can see the difference.
I will certainly not retract my comment that some Xavier fans are idiots, because some Xavier fans are definitely idiots. I know you're fairly new here (at least posting-wise) but you can go back and find MANY comments from me about how it's never OK to go over the top on ripping a player on message boards. It's bush league and they and their families read it. Criticizing an area of a player's game is fine, but personal attacks are a whole different story. If that comment was intended to be towards me, you are way, way off.
As for "mean spirited comments," I think you're just reaching now. Anyone who knows me here knows I like to get in these debates, and if you think I'm being mean by saying that there are plenty of Xavier fans who are idiots, you're probably going to be offended by a lot more of what I post, so, you know, sorry. I have no idea if you are one of the idiot Xavier fans. I don't know you. Your original comment I took the most issue with was that you thought, "most would agree there was a lack of effort" with this year's team. My point was that if most Xavier fans agree with that (I don't think they do) then most Xavier fans are idiots, and I'd like to think we're better than that as a whole. You also made the comment that Miller could teach effort but Mack can't, because he used the common cliche (which by the way Sean said a million times) that "you can't teach effort." I think you are incredibly wrong that Miller was some kind of effort expert, but Mack doesn't understand how to "teach it." To me, it comes more down to the players. There were plenty of Miller players who weren't good enough and didn't get better, like Odia, Graves, and others. Hell, Odia might have had some of the worst "effort," by your definition, I've ever seen. Yet your implication, which is shared by others, is that when it's Miller's players, they just aren't good enough, but when it's Mack's players, HE'S just just good enough. It doesn't work both ways. Justin Martin is the best example on this year's team of a player who went from playing like he didn't seem to bring the effort, to being a baller for us. That's a Mack recruit and player. Personally, I give Martin more of the credit than the coaching, just like I did for BJ Raymond, for example, when Miller was here.
I'm not trying to rag on you, honestly, but comments like the one that suggests that bad turnovers are somehow unique to Mack's coaching are going to spark my desire to debate that, because I disagree with it. If you see that as some counter-productive effort to the fan base coming together to sing kumbaya, I'm sorry, but the reason I come here is to discuss Xavier basketball and opine on what I think is right and wrong.
paulxu
04-01-2014, 02:07 PM
TL-DR.
(knew that would come in handy some day)
GoMuskies
04-01-2014, 02:12 PM
you're welcome
XUFan09
04-01-2014, 02:46 PM
TL-DR.
(knew that would come in handy some day)
Yup.
There is a big difference between Mack ripping effort in a post game presser and the implication you had that effort was this team's problem this year, and that that is all on Mack as a coach. Every coach, even the ones with the best teams, make comments about effort at some point(s) throughout the season. That's a far cry from the idea that our team just didn't bring it this season. I hope you can see the difference.
I will certainly not retract my comment that some Xavier fans are idiots, because some Xavier fans are definitely idiots. I know you're fairly new here (at least posting-wise) but you can go back and find MANY comments from me about how it's never OK to go over the top on ripping a player on message boards. It's bush league and they and their families read it. Criticizing an area of a player's game is fine, but personal attacks are a whole different story. If that comment was intended to be towards me, you are way, way off.
Justin Martin is the best example on this year's team of a player who went from playing like he didn't seem to bring the effort, to being a baller for us. That's a Mack recruit and player. Personally, I give Martin more of the credit than the coaching, just like I did for BJ Raymond, for example, when Miller was here.
I'm not trying to rag on you, honestly, but comments like the one that suggests that bad turnovers are somehow unique to Mack's coaching are going to spark my desire to debate that, because I disagree with it. If you see that as some counter-productive effort to the fan base coming together to sing kumbaya, I'm sorry, but the reason I come here is to discuss Xavier basketball and opine on what I think is right and wrong.
You lost me with the effort comment. All I said was that the team didn't always show effort through an entire game. And it hurt our chance of winning some games. I stand by those words. I backed it up by pointing out that Mack said the same thing in post game remarks. You seem to want to turn this into me blaming Mack for everything.
And honestly, while Martin got better overall, he had stretches through games where there was a lack of effort- maybe it was partly that he was in need of rest. Go back and review the games from this season, you will find Martin looking like superman at times and disappearing or making lots of mental mistakes at other times. Listen, I really like Martin and I think he has the size and skills to be an NBA player, but as I have mentioned before, he needs to show that super human part of him all game next year in order to do so.
You lost me with the effort comment. All I said was that the team didn't always show effort through an entire game. And it hurt our chance of winning some games. I stand by those words. I backed it up by pointing out that Mack said the same thing in post game remarks. You seem to want to turn this into me blaming Mack for everything.
And honestly, while Martin got better overall, he had stretches through games where there was a lack of effort- maybe it was partly that he was in need of rest. Go back and review the games from this season, you will find Martin looking like superman at times and disappearing or making lots of mental mistakes at other times. Listen, I really like Martin and I think he has the size and skills to be an NBA player, but as I have mentioned before, he needs to show that super human part of him all game next year.
My point re: effort was in response to your very clear implication that Miller coaches effort in a way Mack cannot, or does not understand. I pointed out that while Mack made the remarks you note, so did Miller, and Matta, and bascially every other coach ever. Every coach drops the "I can't coach effort" line when they don't feel their team is 100% in. My argument is that these things are not exclusive to Chris Mack teams, as you make it seem. I by no means am turning it into anything other than what you said in your words. I strongly doubt you blame Mack for everything.
As for Martin, I tend to agree with you (although I'm not so sure about the NBA potential.) He will probably always be the kind of player who has those moments where you scratch your head. The difference is, those moments are now buried between lots more good ones, whereas in his first 2.5 years, the good ones were much fewer and farther between. My point is, he has undoubtably improved overall as a player, and if people want to point to players who improved under Miller, and credit his coaching for said improvements, they must do the same with Mack. Again, I personally feel that a great majority of the credit, when it comes to player improvements, most often belongs to the player, but the bottom line is, people can't have it both ways.
I'm not accusing you of being a Mack hater. Never was. My comments toward the Mack hate was a general comment. I didn't call out any names on that. I just disagreed with some of your original points, which I think I've pretty clealry explained. I very strongly stand by my idea that people tend to view Miller and Matta quite differently now that they're gone, than they did on a day to day basis when they were here, and a pet peeve of mine is that few seem to remember far back enough to realize this.
My point re: effort was in response to your very clear implication that Miller coaches effort in a way Mack cannot, or does not understand. I pointed out that while Mack made the remarks you note, so did Miller, and Matta, and bascially every other coach ever. Every coach drops the "I can't coach effort" line when they don't feel their team is 100% in. My argument is that these things are not exclusive to Chris Mack teams, as you make it seem. I by no means am turning it into anything other than what you said in your words. I strongly doubt you blame Mack for everything.
As for Martin, I tend to agree with you (although I'm not so sure about the NBA potential.) He will probably always be the kind of player who has those moments where you scratch your head. The difference is, those moments are now buried between lots more good ones, whereas in his first 2.5 years, the good ones were much fewer and farther between. My point is, he has undoubtably improved overall as a player, and if people want to point to players who improved under Miller, and credit his coaching for said improvements, they must do the same with Mack. Again, I personally feel that a great majority of the credit, when it comes to player improvements, most often belongs to the player, but the bottom line is, people can't have it both ways.
I'm not accusing you of being a Mack hater. Never was. My comments toward the Mack hate was a general comment. I didn't call out any names on that. I just disagreed with some of your original points, which I think I've pretty clealry explained. I very strongly stand by my idea that people tend to view Miller and Matta quite differently now that they're gone, than they did on a day to day basis when they were here, and a pet peeve of mine is that few seem to remember far back enough to realize this.
Okay. I'm good with leaving well enough alone.
Honestly though, I do think with Martin's size, his deceptive quickness, his ability to shoot the 3, his ability to play solid defense, his decent FT %, and with his ability to kick into a higher gear, he does have all of the tools (if he can just work hard this off season and put the pedal to the metal every minute he plays next year) to make it to the NBA.
XUFan09
04-01-2014, 06:21 PM
Okay. I'm good with leaving well enough alone.
Honestly though, I do think with Martin's size, his deceptive quickness, his ability to shoot the 3, his ability to play solid defense, his decent FT %, and with his ability to kick into a higher gear, he does have all of the tools (if he can just work hard this off season and put the pedal to the metal every minute he plays next year) to make it to the NBA.
Lateral quickness will most likely keep him back, just as it did for BJ Raymond.
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Lateral quickness will most likely keep him back, just as it did for BJ Raymond.
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I hope not. Let's see what he does to be ready for his senior year. I think he is a bit more athletic than BJ was, though.
mistabeecee41
04-01-2014, 07:13 PM
Lateral quickness will most likely keep him back, just as it did for BJ Raymond.
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This. And his ball handling skills. I get nervous anytime he takes more than 3 dribbles.
waggy
04-01-2014, 09:53 PM
Martin is 2x the athlete BJ was. I think Martin has the physical tools. Not that he'd be the best athlete on the floor, but enough that if he dedicated himself completely to the game, he could play some at that level.
XUFan09
04-01-2014, 10:18 PM
Martin is definitely a better athlete than BJ, but in terms of one specific component of athleticism, lateral quickness, they aren't too different. Unfortunately, that's a big deal if he's going to try to defend NBA guards, and unlike ball-handling, it is not something he can significantly improve upon.
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I think Martin will definitely have a professional basketball career. I just think when it comes to the NBA, it would take an absolute monster season to even get the look. Not a knock on him, just a testament to how difficult it is to make it. But here's to hoping he has the monster season it would take to make it a discussion.
Lol you keep pushing a lazy narrative yet tell me to "Come on."
The spacing was generally fine. It had flaws just like any offense, but the issue was that defenders would often play off Xavier players, because once again, they couldn't shoot. Poor shooting is ruinous to spacing, but there's not much you can do about that strategy-wise except hope your players start making shots they should make (Myles and Farr didn't) or recruit better shooters (Like the 2014 class).
Effort and focus are most definitely distinct. Just look at Jeff Robinson, the epitome of a good effort without the proper focus. It's been discussed here before, but focus is a skill, developed partly through experience, but in the end some people have "it" more than others. Now, Robinson did finally display more consistent focus, but it took until the last half or so of his senior year for that to really materialize. Are effort and focus at times interconnected? Sure, but so is everything else on the basketball court. That doesn't give you the excuse to be reductionist. For example, a player not hauling ass around a screen is an issue of effort. A player not waiting until the screen is properly set or not cutting the corner of the screen well is an issue of focus.
I missed this reply... Just have to say... If that is your way of differentiating the two, then there was -by both of our definitions- a lack of effort.... Go back and watch the number of times some players would just stand and put their hand up with a defender on them instead of breaking free or coming to a teammate trying to passes the ball- many times resulting in turnovers.
XUFan09
04-01-2014, 11:35 PM
I missed this reply... Just have to say... If that is your way of differentiating the two, then there was -by both of our definitions- a lack of effort.... Go back and watch the number of times some players would just stand and put their hand up with a defender on them instead of breaking free or coming to a teammate trying to passes the ball- many times resulting in turnovers.
No, they aren't the same. You continue to employ reductionist thinking for everything that occurs on the court in order for it to fit the judgment you've made, making this discussion futile
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No, they aren't the same. You continue to employ reductionist thinking for everything that occurs on the court in order for it to fit the judgment you've made, making this discussion futile
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We'll, I guess we have come to an agreement on one thing: This discussion is indeed futile.
Cheers.
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