Future of the Shootout/Classic

[Muskie]

I'm getting the vibe that there will be no shootout/classic next year. If so, that's no UD or UC on our schedule. How's that sit with everyone?

[GoMuskies]

It's stupid, but it's not THAT big a deal.

[danaandvictory]

It makes me completely pissed at everyone involved. It's pathetic. It's college sports - the rivalries are like half the point.

[boozehound]

Kind of a bummer, but I think UC is going to chug massive wang next year anyways. We probably aren't missing out on a quality opponent. They can have fun in the AAC.

[bourbonman]

I would personally miss. Definitely would be a miss for the Cincinnati region and fans involved. But my final opinion will be based on overall OOC. If it can be replaced with a game that's higher profile beyond the Cincinnati region, and get TV coverage, I'd get used to it.

[casualfan]

I'm getting the vibe that there will be no shootout/classic next year. If so, that's no UD or UC on our schedule. How's that sit with everyone?

I'll wait to blow a gasket on the OOC slate until it is officially announced, but as of right now the OOC slate is embarrassing. Not playing UC would only add to that.

[Ledgewood]

The powers that be have already successfully sucked the entire life-force out of The Shootout. It didn't even feel like half the game it used to these past two years. So I've already embraced the sadness of losing a great rivalry after a few people panicked over a completely overblown incident.

Rivalries are important. Recruits like them. Fans like them. Losing two of your biggest rivals for no good reason is incredibly stupid.

[xavierj]

I'll wait to blow a gasket on the OOC slate until it is officially announced, but as of right now the OOC slate is embarrassing. Not playing UC would only add to that.

Well it seemed to work out just fine for St.Louis playing a shit schedule and getting a 5 seed. Xavier's schedule will be just fine.

[casualfan]

Well it seemed to work out just fine for St.Louis playing a shit schedule and getting a 5 seed. Xavier's schedule will be just fine.

Despite their weak schedule they still managed to play 2 top 10 teams OOC.

[XUGRAD80]

I think it would be a stupid decision to suspend the game. I can guarantee that it is something players and fans on both sides want to continue. It is a very important part of raising the publics awareness of both schools and basketball teams. It is the one week during the year that even the casual fan, and many non fans, take notice of college basketball. It has always been a game or match that the athletes in all the other sports look forward to. College basketball, and college sports in general, should not be just about how to get a good seed in the NCAA tourney. Learning to deal with high stress and emotionally charged situations in a positive way is also a part of growing as both an athlete and as an adult. The problem is not the athletes, it's the fans, and the administrations. These players play with each other, and against each other, all summer long. They can certainly do it for one evening a year while dressed in school uniforms and under bright lights.

[nuts4xu]

I think it is total BULLSHIT!!!

Bunch of gutless pussies.

[XU2011]

Well it seemed to work out just fine for St.Louis playing a shit schedule and getting a 5 seed. Xavier's schedule will be just fine.

Problem is the Big East will be even weaker than it was this year. We should probably be preseason favorites even if Semaj goes, as long as Mack stays.

From what we know about the OOC as of now, it's bad, very bad.

[xu15]

Problem is the Big East will be even weaker than it was this year. We should probably be preseason favorites even if Semaj goes, as long as Mack stays.

From what we know about the OOC as of now, it's bad, very bad.

Uh. Nova may have something to say about that....I'd say if Semaj stays X is picked 2nd.

[ChicagoX]

What OOC games do we have scheduled so far? Don't we have Alabama at home and Wake away? Is the Tennessee series now over? I really hope the administration can start up a couple more quality home and home series.

[casualfan]

What OOC games do we have scheduled so far? Don't we have Alabama at home and Wake away? Is the Tennessee series now over? I really hope the administration can start up a couple more quality home and home series.

I asked in another thread and the only ones people came up with are Alabama and Wake.

[Xman95]

Mario has done a good job with scheduling so I'm not going to go crazy just yet. Hopefully he can still work his magic and land some bigger OOC games.

[Xman95]

Uh. Nova may have something to say about that....I'd say if Semaj stays X is picked 2nd.

I think Gtown will be a solid squad next year and Marquette could be, assuming they don't lose their recruits thanks to Buzz. But, overall, it's not going to be a ridiculously good conference.

I'm also hoping Jakarr Sampson pulls his name from the draft and returns to St. John's. He would obviously give them a really nice piece for next year. However, I'm not getting my hopes up too high because I don't think Sampson has ever been a guy that's committed to academics (part of the reason he didn't land at X) and I have a feeling he just wants to be done with school.

[GoMuskies]

I suggest a road game at Wichita State.

[paulxu]

Hot damn!

[Xman95]

I think programs in the state like X, UC, UD, etc should put public pressure on OSU to start scheduling them. Either you get a good game on your schedule or OSU winds up looking like pansies for dodging people. I'm not saying they need to play each of those teams every year or that they need to play every team in the state (playing against Miami would essentially be a "buy" game). But if they did a home and home with those teams on a rotation I think it would be beneficial for all involved, including OSU.

[paulxu]

Looks like Mario is looking to start a H/H with a good team on the road next year.

http://www.basketballtravelers.com/game-schedule-board/?e_type=1

[GoMuskies]

Looks like Mario is looking to start a H/H with a good team on the road next year.

http://www.basketballtravelers.com/game-schedule-board/?e_type=1

Can't wait to welcome you all to Wichita!

[nuts4xu]

Looks like Mario is looking to start a H/H with a good team on the road next year.

http://www.basketballtravelers.com/game-schedule-board/?e_type=1

I love this site, it is fascinating to me to see how the scheduling process works. I see UC also is looking for a H/H with a high major....how about Xavier working with them to start this H/H at UC, with a return game at Cintas the following year. This would give both schools what they are looking for...

Cincinnati Andrew Seidenberger 5135560684 andrew.seidenberger@uc.edu Cincinnati is looking to start a home/home with a high major opponent. The series needs to start in Cincinnati. The open dates are 11/23, 12/2, 12/3, 12/21, 12/28. 2013-2014, Home & Home 2013-05-07 17:17:11

[throwbackmuskie]

Can't wait to welcome you all to Wichita!

It said High Major.

I see osu and zona are offering $$ games, I say let take their money, and whip their @55. I know not going to happe.

[GoMuskies]

Wichita State is certainly a mid-major, but I think Xavier would listen to them or Gonzaga. Those are probably the only two mid-majors, though.

The tougher piece is the fact Xavier wants to stay in the same region.

[LadyMuskie]

I think it is total BULLSHIT!!!

Bunch of gutless pussies.

This is how I feel as well. If Cronin and his minions are too big of cowards to play us any place any time, then so be it. I guess if I was in their shoes I'd hate losing to us all the time as well. To quote their beloved Huggs "F em"!

[LA Muskie]

This is how I feel as well. If Cronin and his minions are too big of cowards to play us any place any time, then so be it. I guess if I was in their shoes I'd hate losing to us all the time as well. To quote their beloved Huggs "F em"!

But we're apparently not willing to play them "any place any time" either. So there's that...

[LA Muskie]

I agree with the sentiment that losing our 2 biggest rivalry games in 2 years is a bad thing whether "justified" or not.

[LadyMuskie]

But we're apparently not willing to play them "any place any time" either. So there's that...

We were willing to continue the series as it was and always had been. They weren't. So there's that . . .

[LA Muskie]

We were willing to continue the series as it was and always had been. They weren't. So there's that . . .
Lady, I'm not disagreeing with that. But let's not pretend we're willing to play them "anytime anywhere." We're not. Nor do I think we need to. I still think it's dumb to drop the series, but that's a question on which reasonable minds can (and do) differ.

[Xu Red Dogg]

The UC game is not going away. I am sure the chess piece are being moved by each side, but in the end, this game is not going away.

That said, I am fine without the Dayton and UC games honestly. The Dayton situation is a mess. Our fans hate to go up there. Maybe I let UDPride poison me but all the extracurriculars surrounding UD have become almost annoying.

If they both go away... which UD already has... X will just have to be smart about how it handles the non-conference. As long as there are high-major, high profile games in their place, I don't care what team name on front of the jersey is.

[Muskie]

I see Cornell is looking for a Road game also George Mason. They've got to be an upgrade over some of the more recent buys.

[LA Muskie]

The Dayton situation is a mess. Our fans hate to go up there. Maybe I let UDPride poison me but all the extracurriculars surrounding UD have become almost annoying.
Isn't that the definition of a real good rivalry?

[murray87]

If UC succeeds in ending this game, we should stick it in their eye by scheduling a home and home with WVA.

[Xu Red Dogg]

Isn't that the definition of a real good rivalry?

I think when your head coach's wife has to deal with verbal harassment of a sexual nature when attending said "rivalry" game, you've reached a point where it is prudent to reevaluate. The 2 times I've gone to the UD / X game @ UD the environment was toxic. I'd rather see X play WVU, Louisville, Purdue.... you name it.

[GIMMFD]

If UC succeeds in ending this game, we should stick it in their eye by scheduling a home and home with WVA.

Hahaha that would be phenomenal...

Personally I think if we are looking for opponents, a home and home with Pitt wouldn't be too shabby, decent program, not too far away, maybe something to look at.

[paulxu]

Nuts...that's a UC request from last season.

But they are looking for games the upcoming season. These sounds like a replacement for our game:


Cincinnati is looking to play a game at a neutral site against a BCS opponent in 2014-15. 2014-2015 2013-09-26 15:41:15


Cincinnati is looking to start a home/home series in Cincinnati for 2014-15 with a BCS opponent. We can not start one on the road. 2014-2015 2013-09-26 15:40:28

[GoMuskies]

What is the BCS?

[casualfan]

If UC succeeds in ending this game, we should stick it in their eye by scheduling a home and home with WVA.

Why would UC fans care about us booking WVU?

[casualfan]

These sounds like a replacement for our game:

How do you figure?

UC played Pitt at MSG last year and they also had a series with New Mexico come to an end.

I would be willing to bet those two posts are more about those than the shootout.

[bjf123]

I think it is total BULLSHIT!!!

Bunch of gutless pussies.

Don't sugarcoat it, nuts. Tell us what you really think.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Masterofreality]

I'll wait to blow a gasket on the OOC slate until it is officially announced, but as of right now the OOC slate is embarrassing. Playing UC would only add to that.

Fixed that for you. The Borecats will be abjectly terrible.

[casualfan]

Fixed that for you. The Borecats will be abjectly terrible.

I'll bet you (terms of your choice) that they end up being better than any of the teams currently on our OOC slate (i.e. Alabama and Wake).

[Masterofreality]

But we're apparently not willing to play them "any place any time" either. So there's that...

Actually, we are willing to play them at THEIR place, which is what it would be this year....as long as they reciprocate.

[Masterofreality]

Fixed that for you. The Borecats will be abjectly terrible.


I'll bet you (terms of your choice) that they end up being better than any of the teams currently on our OOC slate (i.e. Alabama and Wake).

Partial sarcasm font in place.

[ArizonaXUGrad]

I'll bet you (terms of your choice) that they end up being better than any of the teams currently on our OOC slate (i.e. Alabama and Wake).

I agree with this, but with Killa they had scoring issues. Imagine what it will be like with him gone next year. Jermaine Saunders is not the answer, add to that the fact they have no guards coming in 2014.

For those that think the Big East is going down that might be a tad true but remember Seton Hall is getting 5* Isaiah Whitehead. Georgetown has a good recruiting class though they lose Starks. Butler will be better with Jones but they will still have point guard issues. 'Nova doesn't lose much and is getting a good class. Regardless, the Big East will be just fine.

[LA Muskie]

Actually, we are willing to play them at THEIR place, which is what it would be this year....as long as they reciprocate.
I understand. But it's still not "anytime anyplace." They want to play at US Bank. We won't. Again, I don't disagree with our position. It sucks that it has come to this, but I agree with it. But let's please not use "anytime anyplace" because it's just not true and it diminishes its meaning when it's actually true.

[Olsingledigit]

I have heard they are still negotiating with Northwestern. I am sure Mario will make the schedule a good one.

[XU2011]

Missouri, Kansas St and Utah are all looking to start H/H series in 2014-15 at their place with a return game in 2015-16. I'd much prefer any of those 3 schools than Northwestern. I'm confused as to what Northwestern provides us.

[LA Muskie]

I have heard they are still negotiating with Northwestern. I am sure Mario will make the schedule a good one.
Was this intended as sarcasm?

[GoMuskies]

I expect Chris Collins to finally be the guy who gets Northwestern over the hump. Now, whether it will be next year or a few years down the road, I have no idea.

[casualfan]

I have heard they are still negotiating with Northwestern. I am sure Mario will make the schedule a good one.

You mean 14-19 with losses to Illinois State and Depaul this past year Northwestern?

And people are worried about UC dragging down out profile?

All the sudden that Wooden Classic field isn't looking so bad...

[Juice]

You mean 14-19 with losses to Illinois State and Depaul this past year Northwestern?

And people are worried about UC dragging down out profile?

All the sudden that Wooden Classic field isn't looking so bad...

But they're in the Big Ten?!

[danaandvictory]

UC is more than welcome to play their home games at US Bank Arena. This is all about Mick Cronin being a pants-crapping coward. If they won't go back to alternating sites, then Mack, Christopher, and anyone else in Xavier's athletic admin should directly and pointedly call Cronin out in the national and local media, repeatedly, for as long as he's here.

[LA Muskie]

UC is more than welcome to play their home games at US Bank Arena. This is all about Mick Cronin being a pants-crapping coward. If they won't go back to alternating sites, then Mack, Christopher, and anyone else in Xavier's athletic admin should directly and pointedly call Cronin out in the national and local media, repeatedly, for as long as he's here.
I agree.

[The_Mack_Pack]

Looks like Mario is looking to start a H/H with a good team on the road next year.

http://www.basketballtravelers.com/game-schedule-board/?e_type=1

Minnesota, Iowa State, or Missouri would be interesting H/H.

[danaandvictory]

Minnesota, Iowa State, or Missouri would be interesting H/H.

I would suspect Minnesota could be an option with Macura in the fold and Rick Carter's desire to expand Xavier's recruiting footprint there.

[GIMMFD]

Minnesota, Iowa State, or Missouri would be interesting H/H.

I would like Iowa State, good program, Hoiberg is a pretty good coach, and has led them to three straight NCAA Tournaments, it would be a lot better than playing Bowling Green or someone of that nature. Gives our guys a good test to start.

[Xu Red Dogg]

I don't know how many of these games will actually be in play. We lost 2 non-conference slots when we moved to the Big East... so that leaves what, 9 total games + a tournament?

So you have...

Tournament - ESPN California Wooden
1. UC (Lets keep this here for now)
2. Away - Wake
3. Away - TBD - the High-Major Mario has posted online
4. Home - Alabama
5. Home - Buy Game
6. Home - Buy Game
7. Home - Buy Game
8. Home - Buy Game
9. Home - Buy Game

Based on last year's schedule - and hell, even some of X's A10 schedules - they usually play 5 "no return" games at Cintas. That would be it.

I know it is easy to say "replace Bowling Green with Iowa State". Although that might sound like a good idea in March, it might be a different story when you take the court with a *potentially* very young and inexperienced team in November.

[Classof1985]

I think when your head coach's wife has to deal with verbal harassment of a sexual nature when attending said "rivalry" game, you've reached a point where it is prudent to reevaluate. The 2 times I've gone to the UD / X game @ UD the environment was toxic. I'd rather see X play WVU, Louisville, Purdue.... you name it.

Or maybe when the spouses of the coaches and other supporters get spattered with blue paint attending said rivalry game?

[UCGRAD4X]

Or maybe when the spouses of the coaches and other supporters get spattered with blue paint attending said rivalry game?

That's idiotic! Wouldn't they want to make the opposition display THEIR color (RED)?

Consider the source. :bleh:

[gladdenguy]

Or maybe when the spouses of the coaches and other supporters get spattered with blue paint attending said rivalry game?

If you are talking about the piece of shi!t Hep Cronin who was talking sh!t the whole time then you're a baffoon. If you run your mouth expect fans to react. Another dumbass midget Cronin. This time its just the older one spewing his mouth.....but you wouldn't know because you didn't see it happen.
Exactly. Go to the sUCks forum and get bent.
There is a difference however. Christi respects Dayton and doesn't run her mouth to fans and to her credit will still go to UD arena. Dayton fans will heckle anybody and everybody....even if you scored over 1,000 points for them and are a member of the school's hall of fame. Hep and Mickey Mouse troll are scared to go to Xavier because they will get beat yet AGAIN. Nice top ten ranking and 0 wins this tourney season.

[LA Muskie]

I don't know how many of these games will actually be in play. We lost 2 non-conference slots when we moved to the Big East... so that leaves what, 9 total games + a tournament?

So you have...

Tournament - ESPN California Wooden
1. UC (Lets keep this here for now)
2. Away - Wake
3. Away - TBD - the High-Major Mario has posted online
4. Home - Alabama
5. Home - Buy Game
6. Home - Buy Game
7. Home - Buy Game
8. Home - Buy Game
9. Home - Buy Game

Based on last year's schedule - and hell, even some of X's A10 schedules - they usually play 5 "no return" games at Cintas. That would be it.

I know it is easy to say "replace Bowling Green with Iowa State". Although that might sound like a good idea in March, it might be a different story when you take the court with a *potentially* very young and inexperienced team in November.
I don't see us playing 5 buy games/yr going forward.

[XU 87]

Or maybe when the spouses of the coaches and other supporters get spattered with blue paint attending said rivalry game?

Are you claiming that someone threw blue paint on UC people, like the way people throw paint on people wearing furs?

[BandAid]

Are you claiming that someone threw blue paint on UC people, like the way people throw paint on people wearing furs?

Next question:

Were the UC people wearing furs?

[GoMuskies]

I'd prefer to see a rotating "mid-major" home/away. I use quotes, because I don't consider a lot of these teams (such as A-10 teams) mid-major. Try to pick out a team we expect to be good over the next two years and go for it. Wichita State is a good example, because their core this year was sophomores and juniors, but my bias for a Xavier game within a bike ride of the house will show. VCU would work some/most years. San Diego State perhaps. New Mexico. Davidson. Belmont. St. Joe's maybe. One team of that ilk per year.

[danaandvictory]

Was it Porter paint or Glidden? Did the students in question match the shade to Xavier's pantone style guide? Or was it just a blast of spray paint into a wealthy dowager's face? The people have a right to know.

I love the idea that someone just dumped a big thing of paint on Hep Cronin. The mental image is freaking hysterical. Surely there would be pictures or video evidence of this outrage.

[cheeba]

Or maybe when the spouses of the coaches and other supporters get spattered with blue paint attending said rivalry game?


Are you sure someone wasn't throwing Crest 3D Whitening toothpaste at YTG (Yellow Tooth Gnome) to get his chiclets looking normal or was someone actually launching paint at one of YTG's many mistresses that was in attendance to said game?

[XUGRAD80]

Boy oh boy, some of you guys really know how to show class. I doubt that any of you have ever even met Hep Cronin, let alone know anything about him...other than that he is the father of a UC coach you can't stand. Just so happens that I've known him for 40plus years, and can attest that he has been a fine person, educator, coach, and father for as long as I have known him. I've never known him to lie and he has always treated his students, players, and opponents with class. Say whatever ou want about the UC players, coach's, administration, and fans......but lay off people's extended family's OK? Show some class, don't sink to their level. As X people we should be above that, don't you think?

[LadyMuskie]

Boy oh boy, some of you guys really know how to show class. I doubt that any of you have ever even met Hep Cronin, let alone know anything about him...other than that he is the father of a UC coach you can't stand. Just so happens that I've known him for 40plus years, and can attest that he has been a fine person, educator, coach, and father for as long as I have known him. I've never known him to lie and he has always treated his students, players, and opponents with class. Say whatever ou want about the UC players, coach's, administration, and fans......but lay off people's extended family's OK? Show some class, don't sink to their level. As X people we should be above that, don't you think?

I appreciate your relationship with Mr. Cronin. I don't know him. I know of his family. I had no opinion of him one way or the other prior to that game. Did you defend Xavier to him the way you're defending him to us when he and his son were making their (unfounded) claims?

I think making a claim that you've been doused with blue paint is easily verifiable, and as such ought to be true if you don't want your integrity questioned. I know many people who were at "The Game", some who are related to me, some who work at the Cintas Center for a living, a couple of whom were students, and unless it was disappearing/reappearing blue paint, no one, save the students who had blue body paint on during the game, seems to have left the arena covered in blue paint. That's a serious accusation to make because it makes Xavier fans/students/athletes/employees look out of control and wholly responsible for the escalation of the fight - either of which couldn't be further from the truth.

Perhaps some of the reactions on here to your friend are a bit hyperbolic, but so too was the reaction of those associated with and employed by UC. But, you're right. Two wrongs don't make a right. That said, this is a message board and we really should remember that rational thought doesn't thrive on message boards.

[casualfan]

I appreciate your relationship with Mr. Cronin. I don't know him. I know of his family. I had no opinion of him one way or the other prior to that game. Did you defend Xavier to him the way you're defending him to us when he and his son were making their (unfounded) claims?

I think making a claim that you've been doused with blue paint is easily verifiable, and as such ought to be true if you don't want your integrity questioned. I know many people who were at "The Game", some who are related to me, some who work at the Cintas Center for a living, a couple of whom were students, and unless it was disappearing/reappearing blue paint, no one, save the students who had blue body paint on during the game, seems to have left the arena covered in blue paint. That's a serious accusation to make because it makes Xavier fans/students/athletes/employees look out of control and wholly responsible for the escalation of the fight - either of which couldn't be further from the truth.

Perhaps some of the reactions on here to your friend are a bit hyperbolic, but so too was the reaction of those associated with and employed by UC. But, you're right. Two wrongs don't make a right. That said, this is a message board and we really should remember that rational thought doesn't thrive on message boards.

When did Hep make any claims about mistreatment?

I happen to know him a bit as well and that would shock me if he came out publicly and said anything like that.

I could have missed it though.

[XUBBall644]

I heard from some in the media that Cronin is insistent that the game not return to Cintas, feeling that some of his family were verbally mistreated during the last game there. I also heard from someone (a Xavier fan) with seats near the UC bench that someone who appeared to be Cronin's brother was being verbally abusive to the Xavier fans and trying to provoke a fight. Cronin's reaction is not unlike Martelli's when the fans got on his son who was playing for St. Joe's at the time. People are protective of their families.

My guess is that Cronin's brother and nearby fans both said things that were rather inappropriate, a not surprising development given the intensity of the rivalry and the amount of beer often consumed by the spectators. Many fans tend to be pretty obnoxious and their taunts infantile whether they are relatives of the coach or supporters of his opponent. As for the blue paint dousing allegation, I think that's pretty unbelievable.

[XUGRAD80]

I can't comment on the claims, as I never heard HEP make them......only have read Internet posts and heard 2nd hand from UC fans that he claimed that happened. Is that any reason to call him a piece of shit? Or call him a dumbass? Or to think that seeing paint dumped on him would be hysterical? To much 2nd hand information is taken as gospel by many that have a bias one way or another.

But, to get back on subject.....

All X has to say is...." we want to have the right to decide where OUR home games will be conducted, and we give UC the same ability. We will play them anywhere they want to hold the game, when it is their turn to serve as hosts. We demand that we be given the same decision making power concerning location when WE are the hosts. We don't think that we need be placed in subservient position vs any program in the country, and wil not allow any other program to make decisions about where a game we host will be played. We would feel the same way about any other school in the country, and would give that same respect to any school where WE would be visiting. Can you imagine US telling Duke that we would only play them in a neutral site, and would never accept a home and home with them? Can you imagine them demanding that a return game only be allowed if it was at a neutral site? Just who does UC think they are? I understand that their football team has had to accept that moving some games out of Nippert in order to accommodate all the fans wanting to attend....Louisville, Oklahoma, West Virgina.....but, that was because of needing more seats than could be accommodated at the regular facility. We don't have that problem at Cintas. We see no reason to move our home games off campus, and out of their regular facility, just to accommodate the wishes of UC, and its fans. We aren't here to accommodate UC, we are here to accommodate the wishes of the Xavier fans."

Let that get out on the regional and national news and see want the UC reaction would be, and what the public sentiment would be. This whole thing comes down to UC still wanting to dictate to X. I'd really hate to see the game end, but if it does because UC thinks they can still tell X what will and won't happen, then so be it. Sooner or later UC needs to face reality.

[GoMuskies]

All X has to say is...." we want to have the right to decide where OUR home games will be conducted, and we give UC the same ability. We will play them anywhere they want to hold the game, when it is their turn to serve as hosts. We demand that we be given the same decision making power concerning location when WE are the hosts. We don't think that we need be placed in subservient position vs any program in the country, and wil not allow any other program to make decisions about where a game we host will be played. We would feel the same way about any other school in the country, and would give that same respect to any school where WE would be visiting. Can you imagine US telling Duke that we would only play them in a neutral site, and would never accept a home and home with them? Can you imagine them demanding that a return game only be allowed if it was at a neutral site? Just who does UC think they are? I understand that their football team has had to accept that moving some games out of Nippert in order to accommodate all the fans wanting to attend....Louisville, Oklahoma, West Virgina.....but, that was because of needing more seats than could be accommodated at the regular facility. We don't have that problem at Cintas. We see no reason to move our home games off campus, and out of their regular facility, just to accommodate the wishes of UC, and its fans. We aren't here to accommodate UC, we are here to accommodate the wishes of the Xavier fans."

Let that get out on the regional and national news and see want the UC reaction would be, and what the public sentiment would be.

Public sentiment would invariably be TL;DR

[paulxu]

Christ...now I'm googling initials to see WTF they mean.

[casualfan]

All X has to say is...." we want to have the right to decide where OUR home games will be conducted, and we give UC the same ability. We will play them anywhere they want to hold the game, when it is their turn to serve as hosts. We demand that we be given the same decision making power concerning location when WE are the hosts. We don't think that we need be placed in subservient position vs any program in the country, and wil not allow any other program to make decisions about where a game we host will be played. We would feel the same way about any other school in the country, and would give that same respect to any school where WE would be visiting. Can you imagine US telling Duke that we would only play them in a neutral site, and would never accept a home and home with them? Can you imagine them demanding that a return game only be allowed if it was at a neutral site? Just who does UC think they are? I understand that their football team has had to accept that moving some games out of Nippert in order to accommodate all the fans wanting to attend....Louisville, Oklahoma, West Virgina.....but, that was because of needing more seats than could be accommodated at the regular facility. We don't have that problem at Cintas. We see no reason to move our home games off campus, and out of their regular facility, just to accommodate the wishes of UC, and its fans. We aren't here to accommodate UC, we are here to accommodate the wishes of the Xavier fans."

Let that get out on the regional and national news and see want the UC reaction would be, and what the public sentiment would be. This whole thing comes down to UC still wanting to dictate to X. I'd really hate to see the game end, but if it does because UC thinks they can still tell X what will and won't happen, then so be it. Sooner or later UC needs to face reality.

I agree with most of what you said in a vacuum.

The issue is we don't live in a vacuum.

A few counterpoints to the items I bolded:

1. We are not Duke. As far as this program has come it is nowhere near that caliber.

2. I agree the goal is to accommodate the wishes of Xavier fans. The problem i that by playing hardball and likely ending the series it would be a major blow to an already weak OOC slate. Is that accommodating to the wishes of X fans, most of whom I assume want to play the toughest schedule possible?

3. The reality is that despite the constant jabs thrown at their OOC schedule, their OOC schedule for next year is currently stronger than ours. The reality is we don't really have anyone who moves the meter on the schedule. The reality is our OOC is so bad right now I'm worried it will affect season ticket sales.


I'm not saying that we should bend over and take it in the ass on whatever they want to propose, BUT the idea that we can afford to stick our chests out and take a take it or leave it attitude is foolish IMHO.

The sad reality is that we still need this game more than UC. Will that be the case in a year or two? Who knows. All I know is that as I look at our OOC slate it is in desperate need of more opponents that move the meter.

[Muskie]

I agree with most of what you said in a vacuum.

The issue is we don't live in a vacuum.

A few counterpoints to the items I bolded:

1. We are not Duke. As far as this program has come it is nowhere near that caliber.

2. I agree the goal is to accommodate the wishes of Xavier fans. The problem i that by playing hardball and likely ending the series it would be a major blow to an already weak OOC slate. Is that accommodating to the wishes of X fans, most of whom I assume want to play the toughest schedule possible?

3. The reality is that despite the constant jabs thrown at their OOC schedule, their OOC schedule for next year is currently stronger than ours. The reality is we don't really have anyone who moves the meter on the schedule. The reality is our OOC is so bad right now I'm worried it will affect season ticket sales.


I'm not saying that we should bend over and take it in the ass on whatever they want to propose, BUT the idea that we can afford to stick our chests out and take a take it or leave it attitude is foolish IMHO.

The sad reality is that we still need this game more than UC. Will that be the case in a year or two? Who knows. All I know is that as I look at our OOC slate it is in desperate need of more opponents that move the meter.

Playing them at US Bank won't help sell season tickets. The ticket wasn't included in this years price.

[casualfan]

Playing them at US Bank won't help sell season tickets. The ticket wasn't included in this years price.


You are correct. I was saying that to emphasis how bad I think our current OOC slate is, but given the subject matter it was a poor way to illustrate that.

[LadyMuskie]

Christ...now I'm googling initials to see WTF they mean.

Too long. Didn't read.

[danaandvictory]

To clarify, I would not find it funny if someone actually dumped a bucket of paint on a senior citizen. I would be horrified.

However, the image being advanced here of the peaceful, sedate Cronin family being assaulted by Glidden-wielding students, drunk on Coors Lite and Bearcat blood, is inherently funny.

[LadyMuskie]

To clarify, I would not find it funny if someone actually dumped a bucket of paint on a senior citizen. I would be horrified.

However, the image being advanced here of the peaceful, sedate Cronin family being assaulted by Glidden-wielding students, drunk on Coors Lite and Bearcat blood, is inherently funny.

At the Villanova game, I brought six cans of paint with me to Cintas, because, you know, they're so easily concealable and not hard to transport. You just never know when the students might need to assault someone with semi-gloss.

[XU2011]

The sad reality is that we still need this game more than UC. Will that be the case in a year or two? Who knows. All I know is that as I look at our OOC slate it is in desperate need of more opponents that move the meter.

Have you seen who UC has coming back next year? They are not going to be good.

[XUGRAD80]

My point about Duke was taken incorrectly if you think I was comparing XAVIER with Duke. I was comparing UC with Duke, and pointing out that the type of behavior UC is exhibiting would be like X trying to dictate conditions to Duke, or Duke trying to tell Xavier they would only return a game if it was played at US Bank. Duke wold never accept that from X. X would never accept that from Duke. So why should X accept that from UC? To make sure that Xavier can fill an OCC spot in NEXT YEARS schedule? Stop thinking short term. The only way X is EVER going to get UC people to respect them is to stand up to them. It MAY have repercussions for one years schedule (although from a pure RPI potential opponent I think UC can be replaced with no real problems), but in the long term it can only help them.

However, Xavier needs to make sure that all of the X supporters, and the general public, understand that it is the UC people that are being unreasonable in their demands......not X.

I also think that UC NEEDS the game just as much as X does....BOtH programs use the game as a way to get the fan base, and the general public, excited about the program. UC needs a home game, or at least a local game, that can get the fans excited......even in the years when the Xavier or UC home schedule is weak, and the game has not been a true HOME game, the Crosstown game has done that.

[casualfan]

Have you seen who UC has coming back next year? They are not going to be good.

I keep hearing this point and I'll tell you the same thing I said earlier in response:

I would be willing to bet UC is better next year than anyone we currently have on the OOC slate.

[casualfan]

My point about Duke was taken incorrectly if you think I was comparing XAVIER with Duke. I was comparing UC with Duke, and pointing out that the type of behavior UC is exhibiting would be like X trying to dictate conditions to Duke


You might want to reread that a couple times.

You absolutely are comparing Duke and Xavier.

You're talking about a school dictating conditions to Xavier and saying it would be like a school dictating conditions to Duke.

[Xu Red Dogg]

3. The reality is that despite the constant jabs thrown at their OOC schedule, their OOC schedule for next year is currently stronger than ours. The reality is we don't really have anyone who moves the meter on the schedule. The reality is our OOC is so bad right now I'm worried it will affect season ticket sales.

The sad reality is that we still need this game more than UC. Will that be the case in a year or two? Who knows. All I know is that as I look at our OOC slate it is in desperate need of more opponents that move the meter.

1. I would hope their OOC schedule is stronger than ours. Their conference was not even close to the Big East's in terms of OVERALL strength this year. (Conference RPI: Big East - 4th. AAC - 8th) They had several +200 RPI bombs in their league. It gets worse when you consider the fact Louisville is leaving.

2. I'm not sure if you are aware, but Xavier has moved to the Big East. The overall strength of their schedule will now come in January and February, not November and December like year's prior.

3. Xavier's SOS last year was 26. 26! This came after people ragged on that OOC schedule and said we were not playing a tough enough slate.

[paulxu]

It was Gladden with the Glidden in the Cintas Center.

[XUGRAD80]

You might want to reread that a couple times.

You absolutely are comparing Duke and Xavier.

You're talking about a school dictating conditions to Xavier and saying it would be like a school dictating conditions to Duke.

Only in the sense that I can't see either X or Duke trying to do what UC is doing, and that neither of the schools would be expected to accept the conditions that UC is trying to impose. But if you don't like me using Duke as an example...pick any other school out of a top 4 conference and think if they would either try to do what UC is trying, or accept it from any other school they might consider scheduling on a regular basis OOC game. I am NOT saying that the X program is on a par overall with the Duke program. But can you imagine Duke trying to dictate to an equal program...like Syracuse for example....what UC is trying to dictate to X? X and UC are at the very least, equal programs. X needs to realize this and not allow UC to dictate conditions like they want.........THAT is my point.

[waggy]

UC is willing to play on a neutral court. X may wish it another way and can decline, but it's not wholly unreasonable. No amount of attempting to twist this into UC making unreasonable demands, will change those simple facts.

[waggy]

However, Xavier needs to make sure that all of the X supporters, and the general public, understand that it is the UC people that are being unreasonable in their demands......not X.
.

Is this anything more than a bold faced lie? Are Xavier people liars? I'd like to know exactly what is unreasonable about wanting to play on a neutral court?

[GoMuskies]

Is this anything more than a bold faced lie? Are Xavier people liars? I'd like to know exactly what is unreasonable about wanting to play on a neutral court?

Xavier and UC both built on-campus arenas in the not too distant past. The campuses are closer together than either of them is to the downtown dump. Oh, and the downtown arena is a dump.

Other than that, it's perfectly reasonable to play at a neutral site.

[LadyMuskie]

Are you 100% sure UC Basketball wants to play on a neutral court? Because in conversations I've had with someone very high up at UC since the fight, that is not necessarily the case. He's never come right out and said it (why would he knowing I'm Xavier till I die), but I've known this person for nearly 20 years, and I've gotten very good at understanding what he's saying without him having to say it. So, do with that information what you will.

[waggy]

Xavier and UC both built on-campus arenas in the not too distant past. The campuses are closer together than either of them is to the downtown dump. Oh, and the downtown arena is a dump.

Other than that, it's perfectly reasonable to play at a neutral site.

Fair enough, but if what went down between (just about) any other programs this series would be over.

It takes both sides to compromise for the good of the game. You catch more bees with honey...

Trying to blame UC, threatening to end the game, because you don't want to play on a neutral court?? Sorry, the game is more important than X getting what they want.

[GoMuskies]

Fair enough, but if what went down between (just about) any other programs this series would be over.


What about all the programs who have had fights and yet didn't end the series?

[toledodan]

Xavier and UC both built on-campus arenas in the not too distant past. The campuses are closer together than either of them is to the downtown dump. Oh, and the downtown arena is a dump.

Other than that, it's perfectly reasonable to play at a neutral site.


the sad thing is the us bank arena was upgraded in 1997. you walk into the building now and you cant even tell. alot of the seats have rips in them or are broke. i would say move it to the gardens but i was in there in november and it's really bad.

[waggy]

What about all the programs who have had fights and yet didn't end the series?

Was pretty sure that was coming next. I said "just about". But if you want to make a list, let's see it, and we can debate it I guess. End of the day, does it matter? You really think playing on a neutral court should be a deal breaker?

[GoMuskies]

You really think playing on a neutral court should be a deal breaker?

Yes, and I don't care about "perception" issues around blame for the game going away. We both take our medicine and go our separate ways. If the game cannot be played on campuses 2 years later, forget it.

[XUGRAD80]

I think that UC is being completely unreasonable. They want to tell X that they will ONLY play it on a "neutral" court that is not really neutral. Look at this past year......there were far more UC people there than X people, and it was supposedly a HOME COURT for X. X was the host school. Considering that UC has a much bigger enrollment, a larger alumni base, and a larger fan base in the Cincinnati market than X, there can never be a true "neutral" court in this town. I can't think of one thing that is a plus for Xavier when the game is held at US Bank. In order for negotiations like this to be successful, EACH party must feel they are getting value out of the outcome. What value is X getting out of playing at US Bank? X has said that UC can host the game at any venue they desire....when it is UC's turn to host the game. UC is dictating where X must host the game. How is that being reasonable? X hosting the game at US Bank is a net gain for UC, and a net loss for X. I don't for one minute believe that the UC administration is saying they don't want to play at Cintas because they are worried about the "safety" of their team and fans. IF that was the concern, then all would have to do is insist upon extra security measures....of their choosing. I don't think X would have any problem agreeing to that. Moving the game to US Bank has nothing to do with safety and everything to do with UC being able to sell lots of tickets to a game that otherwise they could only sell a few to. THEY need the tickets to be sold because they need the revenue. The season ticket base is much much smaller than it used to be, and they are not attracting good crowds for any of the OOC games other than this one. By moving the game to US Bank it gives UC a greater opportunity to sell tickets, an opportunity they don't get when the game is played at X.

[waggy]

Yes, and I don't care about "perception" issues around blame for the game going away. We both take our medicine and go our separate ways. If the game cannot be played on campuses 2 years later, forget it.

Personally, I care for the game more than that. I'm not saying US Bank is ideal, but if it's good enough for UC, then it's good enough for X.

If X wants to see the games back on campus then institute some safeguards. Catch more bees with honey and all that...

[LA Muskie]

Are you 100% sure UC Basketball wants to play on a neutral court? Because in conversations I've had with someone very high up at UC since the fight, that is not necessarily the case. He's never come right out and said it (why would he knowing I'm Xavier till I die), but I've known this person for nearly 20 years, and I've gotten very good at understanding what he's saying without him having to say it. So, do with that information what you will.

I think you are right. I don't think they want to play it anymore. But they don't want to cop to that. So they say they will play on the US Bank "neutral" court. Because they know we almost certainly won't do it (positions having already been staked). We could call their bluff and play the game. But I honestly don't think anyone cares enough about the game -- at least not enough to swallow some pride.

Honestly the game isn't that big a deal to me. I don't live there anymore and it's never really been the same since Hugs left. But I still think it's a sad state of affairs when you lose your two local, natural and long-standing rivalries in the span of 2 yrs. I like the Big East but we don't have any rivalries that register anywhere near UC and Dayton.

[paulxu]

Was pretty sure that was coming next. I said "just about". But if you want to make a list, let's see it, and we can debate it I guess. End of the day, does it matter? You really think playing on a neutral court should be a deal breaker?

You don't need a list. You only need one. Duke/UNC. Here's the video (again) of where fans stormed the court to fight. They still play at home.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I0RroAH4vwU

[waggy]

Paul they are conference members, they HAVE to play each other unless they want to go independent.

[Cheesehead]

That was much worse than the " the brawl" , that was friggin nuts. I think X should stand its ground on this one and let it be known this was on UC should Micky boy get his way.

[paulxu]

Paul they are conference members, they HAVE to play each other unless they want to go independent.

True...but with that "brawl" one would have thought they would have gone to a neutral court. Gangstas and all.

[gladdenguy]

I could care less if XUGRAD80 holds hands with the Hep Cronin. He made false accusations knowing his son can't win at Cintas. And if you are an opposing head coach's family member and can't take a little heat from the opposing fans because another family member of yours is verbally counteracting Xavier fans then get out of the f*&ken kitchen and don't come to your son's games.

[nasdadjr]

Wow I didn't even know that site existed. It was really cool just to look at. Don't know if you all saw it or not but I saw two matchups that could happen and be very intriging. One will never happen but the other is doable. I happened to see Arizona had an open date but for obvious reasons that would never happen.

I did see however that Utah is looking for a high major to do a home and home with. I know they are not in our region but how different and how cool would it be to play a home and home with Utah? I personally love it and say Mario...lets get it done!!!!!

[nasdadjr]

The Shootout needs to be held every year and both schools need to make it happen. For me college basketball season really starts with this game. Yeah Xavier plays some patsies in November and usually gets rolled in some exempt tournament but the UC Xavier game in early December signifies the end of football season and the start of college basketball. It is a mainstay and needs to continue.

[LA Muskie]

Wow I didn't even know that site existed. It was really cool just to look at. Don't know if you all saw it or not but I saw two matchups that could happen and be very intriging. One will never happen but the other is doable. I happened to see Arizona had an open date but for obvious reasons that would never happen.

I did see however that Utah is looking for a high major to do a home and home with. I know they are not in our region but how different and how cool would it be to play a home and home with Utah? I personally love it and say Mario...lets get it done!!!!!
I don't think that game would be all that exciting. And most coaches prefer to do H/H series in areas they recruit heavily. If we're going to travel outside our recruiting area, both Missouri and Arizona State sound more interesting to me.

[X-man]

Xavier is willing to play a home-and-home series. UC may wish it another way and can decline, but it's not wholly unreasonable. No amount of attempting to twist this into XU making unreasonable demands, will change those simple facts.

Fixed that for you.

[xu95]

Missouri would be awesome. That would be two games a year I could go to (with Creighton in Omaha) unless of course Go could work his magic and they show up in Wichita.

[nasdadjr]

I say Utah is a good match up for a couple reasons. 1 is that they are a pac-12 school that is a winnable road game for x. High major teams that are winnable road games are always good.

2. Over the years x has played few games against west schools but they have not had much success. We have losses to stanford, Arizona state, gonzaga twice, ucla and Washington in NCAA tournament. That's just what I can rattle off the top of my head there may be more. I think more exposure to west coast teams might prepare us better for those types of teams in the tournament.

[PM Thor]

If I had my druthers, X would play this in the public forum before UC does it.

Next time Mack (or anyone affiliated with X for that matter) is interviewed, state that both programs have learned and grown in the past two years since the brawl and that its time to restore the natural order of having the Shootout on campus.

See how UC responds. Bet they wouldn't, but it would be worth it.

As for playing dayton, I hope to never play them again. Honest to God it isn't good for my health.

[x_man11]

If I had my druthers, X would play this in the public forum before UC does it.

Next time Mack (or anyone affiliated with X for that matter) is interviewed, state that both programs have learned and grown in the past two years since the brawl and that its time to restore the natural order of having the Shootout on campus.

See how UC responds. Bet they wouldn't, but it would be worth it.

As for playing dayton, I hope to never play them again. Honest to God it isn't good for my health.

I completely agree. Take it public and let everyone in the world know that we desire to have the game back on campus and still have the charity work involved as in the past couple of years...just throw it out there and see what happens. Even if nothing happens until "decision time" at least there will be some press from when we threw our ideas out in the public arena.

As for Dayton...after their run this year their fans will be saying that they should offer us a 2 or 3 for 1 deal or "buy" game because they've passed us as a program. ha. Delusional.

In my dream world we'd actually have the Ohio tournament as some posters have mentioned. XU, UC, OSU and one other team from the MAC or Dayton allowed in each year...round robin format and the venue changes yearly. OSWho won't have any part in that though. Up here they're screaming to play more "better" teams from in-state to not only pack the arena when students are gone but give good quality games...their administration doesn't want to do this though (and I don't blame them).

[casualfan]

Those screaming to "take it public" are assuming the public cares which IMHO they do not.

People outside Cincinnati care about the shootout one day a year and that is the day of the game.

People inside Cincinnati all pretty much know what is going on with the game and that X wants it at home and UC wants it at a neutral court.

What exactly do those calling for it to be taken public think will be gained from that?

[GoMuskies]

Those screaming to "take it public" are assuming the public cares which IMHO they do not.

People outside Cincinnati care about the shootout one day a year and that is the day of the game.



Completely agree. Just let it go.

[casualfan]

Completely agree. Just let it go.

Yep.

Either tell UC we'll only play a home and home and prepare as if the series will end or keep playing them downtown.

This stuff about trying to raise a public stink to try and pressure UC into playing the game is asinine IMHO. I just have no earthly idea what people think that will accomplish.

UC has every right to say they don't want to play us home and home. Fans may not like hearing that, but it is the truth.

And we have every right to tell them we don't want to play them at a neutral court.

[blobfan]

It was Gladden with the Glidden in the Cintas Center.
12 pages in two days; it's the attack of the G topics. Guaranteed to make a thread explode.


Are you sure someone wasn't throwing Crest 3D Whitening toothpaste at YTG (Yellow Tooth Gnome) to get his chiclets looking normal or was someone actually launching paint at one of YTG's many mistresses that was in attendance to said game?

Of all the incredible things I've seen posted on this board, and the internet in general, this is possible the hardest to believe.

[muskiefan82]

Completely agree. Just let it go.

1414

Let it go, Let it go.

[GoMuskies]

1414

Let it go, Let it go.

As the father of an 8 year old daughter who is infatuated with this movie and sings this song 24 hours/day, I hate you. And reps.

[Masterofreality]

As the father of an 8 year old daughter who is infatuated with this movie and sings this song 24 hours/day, I hate you. And reps.

Uh, my 2 and 5 year old Granddaughters have this on constant repeat. Their dancing and sing alongs are impressive, however.

[casualfan]

As a 26 year old bachelor who has no idea what you're talking about, can you enlighten me as to what movie that is?

[muskiefan82]

Frozen. Welcome to Earth, sir.

[PM Thor]

Those screaming to "take it public" are assuming the public cares which IMHO they do not.

People outside Cincinnati care about the shootout one day a year and that is the day of the game.

People inside Cincinnati all pretty much know what is going on with the game and that X wants it at home and UC wants it at a neutral court.

What exactly do those calling for it to be taken public think will be gained from that?

That's easy, make it blatantly obvious that X wants to play the game, but like how it has been traditionally done, and that UC are the ones who are trying to kill that tradition. The end game to that is to embarrass UC. Which is what we all want.

[casualfan]

That's easy, make it blatantly obvious that X wants to play the game, but like how it has been traditionally done, and that UC are the ones who are trying to kill that tradition. The end game to that is to embarrass UC. Which is what we all want.

What would be embarrassing to UC about the fact they don't want to play us home-home?

[beatuc]

What would be embarrassing to UC about the fact they don't want to play us home-home?

How wouldn't it considering that US Bank Arena has been a total failure in attendance. The only reason Mick doesn't want a home and home is because he doesn't think he can win at the Cintas.

[LadyMuskie]

1414

Let it go, Let it go.

GAH! Little LM's room looks not too unlike this picture. Yes. Her room has Frozen posters and decals all over it along with Xavier pennants and posters too. This is terrifying. It's like Elsa is following me everywhere I go. I already wake up in the morning humming Let It Go. What a nightmare.

[casualfan]

How wouldn't it considering that US Bank Arena has been a total failure in attendance. The only reason Mick doesn't want a home and home is because he doesn't think he can win at the Cintas.

I'm still failing to see how any of that becomes a public embarrassment for UC?

National media will look at the situation and say "UC is doing what it thinks is in it's best interest", shrug and move on.

Fans can think it is somehow embarrassing UC doesn't want to play us home-home all they want. That doesn't make it the case, especially in the eye of the public.

I really think some people are overestimating how much people outside cincy care about this game. If it ends you'll get one or two columns calling it a shame and then everyone will forget about it.

I just don't think taking this to a public forum will create the kind of negative press for UC people are hoping for.

[danaandvictory]

I don't care if it creates negative press for UC.

If this game doesn't take place I want Xavier to put out in public the exact discussions and positions of the parties. I want it to be clear that it was UC's decision to wreck the rivalry by sticking it in the shithole downtown, that they did it because of ostensible security/monetary issues that have proven to be bullshit, and that Xavier will not continue to be a doormat.

Whether there is any groundswell is irrelevant to me. It's about Xavier having some goddamned respect for themselves.

[SkyWalker]

My crystal ball says we are at an impasse with UC but will replace them on the schedule with Dayton.

[paulxu]

If this game doesn't take place I want Xavier to put out in public the exact discussions and positions of the parties.

All they have to say is the X offered to continue a long running home and home series, and that UC refused.

[American X]

Perhaps we should just tell UC 'It's On.'

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a115/Greenstarz/its-on-southpark.gif

[X-man]

All they have to say is the X offered to continue a long running home and home series, and that UC refused.

This.

[xubrew]

It's really ironic. UC was, by far, our best win away from home and I think it is clearly the game the committee valued the most. If that game were at Cintas instead of at US Bank, I am quite certain we would not have made the field. As much as some people hate that it's at US Bank, it really did work out to our advantage this year, at least as far as the committee goes.

I think hate in sports is a wonderful thing. It drives me nuts that so many programs have stopped playing the teams they hate. Much of it is due to realignment, but a lot of it is due to this "Screw 'em, we don't need them" attitude. Programs seem to feel that the best way to stick it to the teams that they hate is to simply not play them.

Pitt and West Virginia don't play.

Kansas and Missouri don't play. A rivalry that goes back to 1891, which was a mere 26 years after the Civil War ended and the actual Border War ended, where two of the key players were the Tiger and Jayhawk militias.

Texas and Texas A&M don't play. They struggle with attendance at their OOC games. It's hilarious to watch them insist that they have nothing to gain. Gee, who do you think those teams could schedule in basketball that would generate an unusually high level of interest among the fans??

Syracuse v UConn is over. Although, Syracuse is resuming the series with Georgetown, so I guess that's something.

Maryland and Georgetown is on an entirely different level of stubbornness when it comes to "Screw 'em. We don't need 'em."

We don't need to play Dayton, and we don't need to play UC either. We really stuck it to UD by not playing them this year.

There is way more to be gained than lost from playing the teams you hate. The reality is, once you put the egos away, you really don't have all that much to lose by scheduling the teams that you hate. There is more to be gained than lost. Heated rivalries help fuel college athletics. Most of the reasons for not wanting to play them (ie TV ratings, not good on paper, nothing to gain, etc) are pretty much based on false speculation. The healthiest conferences in college athletics have always been the ones with the biggest rivalries. The healthiest programs in college athletics all have big rivals, and they actually like to play the teams that they hate.

This probably doesn't connect with most people on this board because they are diehard fans, and watch every game, but casual fans greatly outnumber the diehard fans, and they get far more excited about rivalry games and teams that they hate than the teams they don't care about. Missouri's attendance is down 23% this year, and they can't figure out why. They don't understand how not having Kansas, and Kansas State, and Nebraska and other long time conference rivals on the home schedule causes a drop in ticket sales.

But...okay, fine. XU and UC don't need each other. UC has about 5000 people at most of their OOC games if they count everyone twice. Xavier's TV ratings are beyond shitty for many of their OOC games. It was the biggest win we had this year in the eyes of the committee, and the loss didn't hurt UC at all. But, there's nothing worth preserving. We're just going to decide that it's not worth playing anymore. Just like everyone else in college athletics. We'll both schedule someone we don't hate and that's far less interesting to the casual fans instead.

[_LH]

It's really ironic. UC was, by far, our best win away from home and I think it is clearly the game the committee valued the most. If that game were at Cintas instead of at US Bank, I am quite certain we would not have made the field. As much as some people hate that it's at US Bank, it really did work out to our advantage this year, at least as far as the committee goes.

I think hate in sports is a wonderful thing. It drives me nuts that so many programs have stopped playing the teams they hate. Much of it is due to realignment, but a lot of it is due to this "Screw 'em, we don't need them" attitude. Programs seem to feel that the best way to stick it to the teams that they hate is to simply not play them.

Pitt and West Virginia don't play.

Kansas and Missouri don't play. A rivalry that goes back to 1891, which was a mere 26 years after the Civil War ended and the actual Border War ended, where two of the key players were the Tiger and Jayhawk militias.

Texas and Texas A&M don't play. They struggle with attendance at their OOC games. It's hilarious to watch them insist that they have nothing to gain. Gee, who do you think those teams could schedule in basketball that would generate an unusually high level of interest among the fans??

Syracuse v UConn is over. Although, Syracuse is resuming the series with Georgetown, so I guess that's something.

Maryland and Georgetown is on an entirely different level of stubbornness when it comes to "Screw 'em. We don't need 'em."

We don't need to play Dayton, and we don't need to play UC either. We really stuck it to UD by not playing them this year.

There is way more to be gained than lost from playing the teams you hate. The reality is, once you put the egos away, you really don't have all that much to lose by scheduling the teams that you hate. There is more to be gained than lost. Heated rivalries help fuel college athletics. Most of the reasons for not wanting to play them (ie TV ratings, not good on paper, nothing to gain, etc) are pretty much based on false speculation. The healthiest conferences in college athletics have always been the ones with the biggest rivalries. The healthiest programs in college athletics all have big rivals, and they actually like to play the teams that they hate.

This probably doesn't connect with most people on this board because they are diehard fans, and watch every game, but casual fans greatly outnumber the diehard fans, and they get far more excited about rivalry games and teams that they hate than the teams they don't care about. Missouri's attendance is down 23% this year, and they can't figure out why. They don't understand how not having Kansas, and Kansas State, and Nebraska and other long time conference rivals on the home schedule causes a drop in ticket sales.

But...okay, fine. XU and UC don't need each other. UC has about 5000 people at most of their OOC games if they count everyone twice. Xavier's TV ratings are beyond shitty for many of their OOC games. It was the biggest win we had this year in the eyes of the committee, and the loss didn't hurt UC at all. But, there's nothing worth preserving. We're just going to decide that it's not worth playing anymore. Just like everyone else in college athletics. We'll both schedule someone we don't hate and that's far less interesting to the casual fans instead.

That's all fine and dandy and I think XU would like to continue the series but UC clearly does not. Cronin and UC don't like losing the majority of the time to little 'ol eggsavier.

[LA Muskie]

Brew makes a lot of sense. Frankly for metric purposes an annual neutral site game is better than a home/home series where the downside to a home loser is so disproportionate to the benefit of a home win.

But at this point it's more about ego. Neither side wants to give in.

[xubrew]

I think that if they were to evenly split the tickets every year, which would be roughly 8500 per school every year, which would allow for season ticket holders of both teams to go to the game every year, and have student sections at the game every year, and which would allow each team to play another game away from home without really going away from home (which the committee likes), that playing it at a neutral site could be a good thing. There is no reason why all of that cannot be accomplished.

It sure as hell beats not playing it at all.

You can't just say that we want the game and UC does not. We want it on certain terms (allegedly) and they want it on certain terms (allegedly), and the terms are not the same. They could just as easily say that Xavier is the team that doesn't want the series because they proposed a way to not only play it, but to make it more accessible to fans, and to make the game look better in the eyes of the selection committee, and X just flat out refused.

[casualfan]

But at this point it's more about ego. Neither side wants to give in.

Yep. It has turned into a big game of chicken.

The one place where I think the AAC TV deal with benefit UC more than the BE deal will benefit us is in terms of booking OOC games.

There are a lot more leagues with ESPN TV deals than there are with FS1 TV deals.

Unfortunately I think it would be easier for them to replace us than for us to replace them.

[casualfan]

I think that if they were to evenly split the tickets every year, which would be roughly 8500 per school every year, which would allow for season ticket holders of both teams to go to the game every year, and have student sections at the game every year, and which would allow each team to play another game away from home without really going away from home (which the committee likes), that playing it at a neutral site could be a good thing. There is no reason why all of that cannot be accomplished.

It sure as hell beats not playing it at all.

You can't just say that we want the game and UC does not. We want it on certain terms (allegedly) and they want it on certain terms (allegedly), and the terms are not the same. They could just as easily say that Xavier is the team that doesn't want the series because they proposed a way to not only play it, but to make it more accessible to fans, and to make the game look better in the eyes of the selection committee, and X just flat out refused.


I could be totally wrong here, but I'm pretty sure the tix are split evenly between the schools. Each gets 8500 that they can make available to their season ticket holders and then their general fans during a presale period. At a certain point though the school-related presale ends and all the tix go back under the control of Ticketmaster. At least I believe that is how it works.

I'd be curious to know what is stopping either side from including it in the season ticket package. Is it that the cost of doing so just doesn't make sense or are they flat not allowed to do so?

[xubrew]

I'd be curious to know what is stopping either side from including it in the season ticket package. Is it that the cost of doing so just doesn't make sense or are they flat not allowed to do so?

I'm not sure. I just know that neither of them included it. It doesn't make any sense that they wouldn't be allowed to do it. They're just choosing not to for some reason.

[beatuc]

I don't care if it creates negative press for UC.

If this game doesn't take place I want Xavier to put out in public the exact discussions and positions of the parties. I want it to be clear that it was UC's decision to wreck the rivalry by sticking it in the shithole downtown, that they did it because of ostensible security/monetary issues that have proven to be bullshit, and that Xavier will not continue to be a doormat.

Whether there is any groundswell is irrelevant to me. It's about Xavier having some goddamned respect for themselves.

Probably couldn't be summed up any better. UC trying playing it off as the Cintas has no control over the fans while in the meantime UC was ignoring that Lance Stephonsen and others were staring down Chris Mack or barking at him during games every time they made a basket in previous years. What happened in the brawl was years of tension on both sides. What Tu did was maybe a little over the line, but it was about having some self-respect for him and his teammates. I was at the shootout the year before the brawl and the year before that, and UC players were doing the exact same thing except Xavier didn't throw any punches. So Xavier has every right to say that they want a home and home series or they won't play it. Just because Mick can't control his bench and players on the court doesn't mean Xavier has to baby them.

[casualfan]

Probably couldn't be summed up any better. UC trying playing it off as the Cintas has no control over the fans while in the meantime UC was ignoring that Lance Stephonsen and others were staring down Chris Mack or barking at him during games every time they made a basket in previous years. What happened in the brawl was years of tension on both sides. What Tu did was maybe a little over the line, but it was about having some self-respect for him and his teammates. I was at the shootout the year before the brawl and the year before that, and UC players were doing the exact same thing except Xavier didn't throw any punches. So Xavier has every right to say that they want a home and home series or they won't play it. Just because Mick can't control his bench and players on the court doesn't mean Xavier has to baby them.


And UC has every right to say they want a neutral court or they won't play it. I don't know why it is so tough for people to understand that.

To my knowledge though Xavier hasn't yet done that and I'd be willing to bet it is for the reasons brew laid out in his post. We simply can't afford to lose this game right now, regardless of the circumstances regarding where it will be played.

I guess I'll ask it a different way that Brew alluded to.

Had we taken a hard line two years ago and the game was played either at Cintas or not at all last year we don't make the tournament. With hindsight being 20/20 would you have been ok with Xavier making that call knowing it would have cost us a tourney appearance?

[danaandvictory]

Had we taken a hard line two years ago and the game was played either at Cintas or not at all last year we don't make the tournament. With hindsight being 20/20 would you have been ok with Xavier making that call knowing it would have cost us a tourney appearance?

Assumes facts not in evidence. Try again.

[xubrew]

Probably couldn't be summed up any better. UC trying playing it off as the Cintas has no control over the fans while in the meantime UC was ignoring that Lance Stephonsen and others were staring down Chris Mack or barking at him during games every time they made a basket in previous years. What happened in the brawl was years of tension on both sides. What Tu did was maybe a little over the line, but it was about having some self-respect for him and his teammates. I was at the shootout the year before the brawl and the year before that, and UC players were doing the exact same thing except Xavier didn't throw any punches. So Xavier has every right to say that they want a home and home series or they won't play it. Just because Mick can't control his bench and players on the court doesn't mean Xavier has to baby them.

Realize that if Xavier says "we want a home and home series or we won't play it," then every single third party that we are trying to impress will feel Xavier is the team that ended it. Maybe that's not important, but that is how it will play out.

[GoMuskies]

Assumes facts not in evidence. Try again.

(Former) Lawyered

[muskiefan82]

Wouldn't Xavier be better served by simply stating:

"Xavier University would love to go back to playing the games on campus again; however, the University of Cincinnati is not in favor of that and wishes to continue playing at a neutral site. In the interest of the fans and the desire of the city of Cincinnati to continue this local, storied rivalry that now benefits charity, Xavier University agrees to continue this game at a neutral site for the next xx years and to reevaluate what is in the best interest of Xavier and the city at that time." Or something similar. There are people for that.

[xubrew]

Assumes facts not in evidence. Try again.

Look at the teams that got in and look at the seeds they got. The circumstances are overwhelming that the committee put very little value on home wins, while at the same time overvalued road and neutral wins. There is no other way to explain why BYU, UMass and SLU got the seeds that they did. It is very safe to assume that had that been a home win and not a neutral floor win, we would not have been selected. People that dismiss that just aren't looking at what's right in front of them.

You can say you don't like it at US Bank. That's purely a matter of opinion. You can't say that the committee would have given Xavier the same credit had that been a home game. They wouldn't have. This is something that I actually do know.

[XUFan09]

Look at the teams that got in and look at the seeds they got. The circumstances are overwhelming that the committee put very little value on home wins, while at the same time overvalued road and neutral wins. There is no other way to explain why BYU, UMass and SLU got the seeds that they did. It is very safe to assume that had that been a home win and not a neutral floor win, we would not have been selected. People that dismiss that just aren't looking at what's right in front of them.

You can say you don't like it at US Bank. That's purely a matter of opinion. You can't say that the committee would have given Xavier the same credit had that been a home game. They wouldn't have. This is something that I actually do know.

If Xavier hadn't played UC, they would have scheduled another high-major team, maybe at home or maybe on the road. They also would have reworked the schedule, since before Xavier has only scheduled buy games or no games at all near the high-emotion Crosstown Shootout. The whole approach to the season would have been different, both technically and mentally.

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[xubrew]

If Xavier hadn't played UC, they would have scheduled another high-major team, maybe at home or maybe on the road. They also would have reworked the schedule, since before Xavier has only scheduled buy games or no games at all near the high-emotion Crosstown Shootout. The whole approach to the season would have been different, both technically and mentally.

Yes, if we had scheduled another top twenty team and managed to beat them away from home, then we would have ended up the same. That's fair.

It's also a much less practical and desirable alternative.

Why not just play UC??

Beating UC on a neutral floor did way more for us on paper and in the eyes of the committee than beating them at home would have, and I think that's ironic since so many people didn't want it downtown. That's my point. I don't even see how that's debatable. I understand there are a lot of good reasons for wanting it back on campus. But, as far as making the NCAA Tournament goes, it worked out to our advantage that the game was at a neutral site.

[Tardy Turtle]

[puts on serious hat]

Endorsing this ridiculous "neutral" setup just because this one time things happened to play out where a de facto road win over UC put Xavier on the right side of the bubble is some terrible results-oriented thinking.

Any continuation of the current arrangement as-is is implicit agreement to never go back to home courts. UC is free to stand their ground. They are also free to pound sand.

Best compromise I can do is they can stay downtown, but make it a true home game. Put the game in my package every other year at a reasonable upcharge (usually $5?) from standard ticket price for all other games and add a parking pass... then maybe we can talk. Otherwise they can take their pricing model and jam it up their ass.

[takes off serious hat]
[and also pants]

[throwbackmuskie]

If Cincinnati was to build a high quaility arena to attact better concerts and other shows I would be all for keeping the game at a netural arena. However playing at US Bank, which needs to be blown up, at this point is below the standard of both X and UC. Cintas and even 5/3 are much better venues and US Bank, why take a great game and put it in a dumpster?

[paulxu]

Screw all this. People don't change a decades long rivalry venue because of a fight.
Hell, every day there are fights in sports. Football field fights, obligatory hockey rink fights, soccer is like ufc in the stands.
It's a load of crap. We are being punished as fans because UC's bench was out of control.
Xavier built Cintas to put the game on campus...not downtown. People gave and give money to XU athletics in a variety of ways to have our home games at home. The intensity of fan experience supporting your team in a rivalry game for city bragging rights is unmatched in conference play.
The metric gain/loss of a neutral court game just doesn't get it for me.
Call me when the Duke/UNC games moves to Raleigh.

[casualfan]

If Xavier hadn't played UC, they would have scheduled another high-major team, maybe at home or maybe on the road. They also would have reworked the schedule, since before Xavier has only scheduled buy games or no games at all near the high-emotion Crosstown Shootout. The whole approach to the season would have been different, both technically and mentally.

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This is technically correct, however given what our OOC schedule looks like for next year I find it hard to believe there are top 20 teams willing to play us.

[XUFan09]

Yes, if we had scheduled another top twenty team and managed to beat them away from home, then we would have ended up the same. That's fair.

It's also a much less practical and desirable alternative.

Why not just play UC??

Beating UC on a neutral floor did way more for us on paper and in the eyes of the committee than beating them at home would have, and I think that's ironic since so many people didn't want it downtown. That's my point. I don't even see how that's debatable. I understand there are a lot of good reasons for wanting it back on campus. But, as far as making the NCAA Tournament goes, it worked out to our advantage that the game was at a neutral site.

You missed the part about how the schedule would have been reworked too. It wouldn't just be switching out a game.

Also, Tardy is right; it's terrible results-oriented thinking. There are other things that would have put Xavier safely in the tournament. Not going 0-3 in the Bahamas or not losing twice to Seton Hall both come to mind.

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[GoMuskies]

This is technically correct, however given what our OOC schedule looks like for next year I find it hard to believe there are top 20 teams willing to play us.

I guarantee Wichita State would play Xavier. Sweet, ANOTHER chance for me to plug Xavier to Wichita!

[Pete Delkus]

Screw all this. People don't change a decades long rivalry venue because of a fight.
Hell, every day there are fights in sports. Football field fights, obligatory hockey rink fights, soccer is like ufc in the stands.
It's a load of crap. We are being punished as fans because UC's bench was out of control.
Xavier built Cintas to put the game on campus...not downtown. People gave and give money to XU athletics in a variety of ways to have our home games at home. The intensity of fan experience supporting your team in a rivalry game for city bragging rights is unmatched in conference play.
The metric gain/loss of a neutral court game just doesn't get it for me.
Call me when the Duke/UNC games moves to Raleigh.

...while UC has a dung dumpster with a basketball court in the middle. Reason #7 why Skipper Mick want's nothing to do with us.

What lonely, miserable little slapper…stuck in a empty house, pissed off each time he sees a "X" sticker in the Anderson Kroger parking lot.

"34 hot pockets and Crest Whitening strips comes to $76.53"

[xubrew]

You missed the part about how the schedule would have been reworked too. It wouldn't just be switching out a game.

Also, Tardy is right; it's terrible results-oriented thinking. There are other things that would have put Xavier safely in the tournament. Not going 0-3 in the Bahamas or not losing twice to Seton Hall both come to mind.

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I think it's ironic that our biggest win was a game that most fans didn't even want to play because it was away from home. What am I missing??

Maybe we would have reworked the schedule (or tried to), but it doesn't make it any less ironic. Truth be told I think it needs reworking whether we continue to play UC or not. It was our best win, and it wouldn't have been had we beaten them at home.

I find that...what's the world...oh yeah. Ironic. I don't see how I'm missing anything by feeling that way.

[coasterville95]

I wonder if the reason the game isn't in season ticket plans (other than the flimsy excuse that it would raise the price of season tickets too high) is much more simple - what if either school sold more than 8500 season tickets (minus their hold out for students and seats for university use - think players, sponsors, VIPs etc) then there would not be enough tickets around for all season ticket holders. What do you do then? How do you tell someone you are left out.

One way for is would be to say only seats in premium seating sections get crosstown seats.

[paulxu]

I think it's ironic that our biggest win was a game that most fans didn't even want to play because it was away from home. What am I missing??

You are missing the point, as shown by your sentence construction. Most (all Xavier) fans DID want to play the game. They just didn't like the location.

[xubrew]

You are missing the point, as shown by your sentence construction. Most (all Xavier) fans DID want to play the game. They just didn't like the location.



I'm not missing the point, but I guess I do need to a better job with sentence structure for those that want to dissect such things. You're right about that.

The fans did not want to play it AT THAT LOCATION. I get it.

Yet, because it was played AT THAT LOCATION and not AT HOME, it ended up being our biggest win in the eyes of the committee, and we would have almost certainly missed the field had we beaten them at home instead of at a neutral site.

In other words, because it was played at a location that the fans didn't like instead of at home, Xavier actually ended up getting more credit for the win in a year where they needed all the credit they could get.

....and I find that to be ironic.

[SM#24]

I completely agree with the irony and completely agree without the UC win as a neutral game, we play in the NIT. But I still want the game home-and-home.

[xubrew]

Xavier wants it back on campus or not at all.

UC wants it at US Bank or not at all.

Well, that's just great.

I don't see one position being any more unreasonable or any more stubborn than the other. And because of that, if the series ends, I'll consider it to be a group effort.

I guess proposing a three year rotation between Cintas, 5/3rd and US Bank is also out of the question. Neither side wants to bend, and would rather just see it end altogether.

[SM#24]

Except that Xavier's reasons to end it will be rightful and moral and just; while UC will be just a bunch of pussies.

[xubrew]

I'm getting the vibe that there will be no shootout/classic next year. If so, that's no UD or UC on our schedule. How's that sit with everyone?

Just curious....can you say what it is that's giving you that vibe?? Is it just a vibe, or do you know something??

[XUFan09]

I think it's ironic that our biggest win was a game that most fans didn't even want to play because it was away from home. What am I missing??

Maybe we would have reworked the schedule (or tried to), but it doesn't make it any less ironic. Truth be told I think it needs reworking whether we continue to play UC or not. It was our best win, and it wouldn't have been had we beaten them at home.

I find that...what's the world...oh yeah. Ironic. I don't see how I'm missing anything by feeling that way.

I get the irony and frankly I like the advantage of the neutral court setting, because of the disproportionate weight the Committee puts on simply playing games away from home.

I just don't like the after-the-fact logic. There are lot of probable ways this season could have played out with a tournament berth without winning that game.

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[ThrowDownDBrown]

The tourney committee each year changes how they value teams to pick for the tourney. The idiotic WF AD did an awful job this year but the committee didn't use this years logic in previous years and I doubt they will next year either. So if your whole argument for keeping the shootout at US Bank is based off this years committee you're making a pretty terrible argument.

[LA Muskie]

The tourney committee each year changes how they value teams to pick for the tourney. The idiotic WF AD did an awful job this year but the committee didn't use this years logic in previous years and I doubt they will next year either. So if your whole argument for keeping the shootout at US Bank is based off this years committee you're making a pretty terrible argument.

This committee seems to have relied too heavily on the RPI, but wins away from home have been quite critical for quite some time now. It's not a Wellman concoction.

[xubrew]

The tourney committee each year changes how they value teams to pick for the tourney. The idiotic WF AD did an awful job this year but the committee didn't use this years logic in previous years and I doubt they will next year either. So if your whole argument for keeping the shootout at US Bank is based off this years committee you're making a pretty terrible argument.

That isn't the whole argument I'm making. That's actually a terrible interpretation of the argument that I'm making. I was merely pointing out that playing it out at US Bank really worked to our benefit, and that I find that to be very ironic. Nothing more. Nothing less. I'm actually getting quite tired of repeating that. I don't know why that's such a mind boggling thing to point out.

I'd rather see it at US Bank than not at all. I hate how it is currently managed, and would rather see it back on campus than see it continued to be managed the way that it is. I think it would work much better at US Bank if each school got 8500 tickets, and included it in the season ticket package every year. That way, season ticket holders get tickets to the shootout every year and not just every two years. Having two student sections is cool too. But, since this does not occur, and the current model includes overpriced tickets where over 6000 seats go unsold, that's a train wreck of a set up and I'd rather see it on campus than see it stay like that.

But, one aspect is that the committee does value games played away from home, and games won away from home, and actually has for the past several years (as LA Muskie also pointed out). This gives each team a "game away from home' that isn't really away from home, especially when all the season ticket holders get to go every year. Trying to guess the committee is like trying to hit a moving target, but they've always valued wins away from home (albeit they've valued them a lot more recently). There isn't a single committee over the last twenty years that wouldn't have given us more credit for a neutral site win than a home win.

In a nutshell, I just don't want the series to go away. Playing it downtown isn't benefiting UC any more than it's benefiting us because it's a neutral site. Playing it on campus doesn't benefit us any more than it benefits UC because it evenly alternates home sites. I think that it's kind of stupid for both sides to be this hung up on it when there really isn't that much of an advantage either way. So, I really don't feel that strongly about keeping it downtown. I'd much rather see it stay downtown than go away entirely. If it does stay downtown, I think things could be done to make a it a lot better, and it's stupid to not do them. But, as much as it sucks with how it's currently being managed, I still prefer it to not playing it at all. Way more often than not it's a game that is fun off paper, and actually does help us on paper.

[waggy]

People need to stop worrying about saving face, and instead worry about saving the game. Start taking the position of stewardship, instead of this nebulus demand for respect.

Xavier controls whether this game continues. UC has made a reasonable offer to play the game. If the game isn't played, it'll be because Xavier declined to play on a neutral court. And for those in need of RESPECT, Just wait see how that works out for you.

[xubrew]

People need to stop worrying about saving face, and instead worry about saving the game. Start taking the position of stewardship, instead of this nebulus demand for respect.

Xavier controls whether this game continues. UC has made a reasonable offer to play the game. If the game isn't played, it'll be because Xavier declined to play on a neutral court. And for those in need of RESPECT, Just wait see how that works out for you.

Waggy's not gonna like this, but I completely agree with him.

[XUGRAD80]

One needs to ask WHY they want it played downtown?

[GoMuskies]

I half agree with the waggster. I think we should forget about "respect" and "winning the PR battle". And I disagree that we should be trying to save the game if that means playing it downtown. If UC won't go back to home and home, then quietly let it die. Such is life.

[paulxu]

One needs to ask WHY they want it played downtown?

Good question.

[LadyMuskie]

People need to stop worrying about saving face, and instead worry about saving the game. Start taking the position of stewardship, instead of this nebulus demand for respect.

Xavier controls whether this game continues. UC has made a reasonable offer to play the game. If the game isn't played, it'll be because Xavier declined to play on a neutral court. And for those in need of RESPECT, Just wait see how that works out for you.

You really need to stop saying this because it doesn't have much, if any, basis in fact.

UC really doesn't want to play the game. And they're going to get out of playing it by demanding it be played at US Bank because they know we don't want to play the game there. And because we really don't want to kowtow to Mick Cronin and the rest of UC, we're not going to call their bluff. And even if we did call their bluff, I wouldn't be surprised to hear that there are scheduling complications that can't allow the game to move forward.

[waggy]

UC's offer to play the game at US Bank is a fake offer? The University of Cincinnati is making fake offers to play basketball games? Wow.

[waggy]

One needs to ask WHY they want it played downtown?


Good question.


Good question? More like stupid question. It's a friggin basketball game. Get over yourselves.

[LadyMuskie]

UC's offer to play the game at US Bank is a fake offer? The University of Cincinnati is making fake offers to play basketball games? Wow.

Yep. That's it.

[waggy]

You know I love you Lady, but just stop.

[Pablo's Brother]

They want a neutral court? Offer to play them at the Gardens.

[SM#24]

Good question? More like stupid question. It's a friggin basketball game. Get over yourselves.
Nobody needs to get over anything. It's just a simple difference of opinion where the game should be played. If you want a true compromise, where everybody gets what they want, then three-year rotation, one game at each of the campus sites, then a game downtown.
The thing that gets me, is if you polled a majority of the X season-ticket holders, the vast majority would choose to have it played on campus. I also believe if you polled the UC season ticket holders, the majority would vote the same way.

[GoMuskies]

They want a neutral court? Offer to play them at the Gardens.

Or play them at Cintas, but bring in US Bank Arena's court.

[XUGRAD80]

Good question? More like stupid question. It's a friggin basketball game. Get over yourselves.

Why is it stupid? Yes, it is a basketball game, one that I hope will be played. But it is also a BUSINESS event. I have heard for years that UC needs to play a certain number of games at the Shoe in order to continue to pay the note on it. I know that Xavier is in the same position with the Cintas.

So I, and it seems others, wonder WHY UC wants to move this game from the Shoe?

You might not remember, but this game WAS played at US BANK ( then called Riverfront Coloseum ) back before the Shoe opened, and before Cintas was built. But it was moved to the Shoe as soon as it opened. It was played at Cincinnati Gardens when X used that as a home, but moved to Cintas when it opened. I personally have no problem with attending and viewing at US Bank, it's actually much easier for me to get to than either Cintas or Shiemaker.

But, I wonder why it is NOW that UC has decided that it should ONLY be played at US Bank?

[waggy]

I assume that Mick feels the enviroment on the home courts became too toxic.

[XUGRAD80]

I assume that Mick feels the enviroment on the home courts became too toxic.

Why couldn't that be solved with better security at either facility? That would certainly be am easier way to solve that concern, wouldn't it be? And it would certainly be much less controversial. No, I'm afraid I doubt that is the REAL reason.

[SM#24]

I assume that Mick feels the enviroment on the home courts became too toxic.

He's wrong

[waggy]

Why couldn't that be solved with better security at either facility? That would certainly be am easier way to solve that concern, wouldn't it be? And it would certainly be much less controversial. No, I'm afraid I doubt that is the REAL reason.

It doesn't matter what the problem is, or even if there is no problem at all and Mick is just looking for an advantage. I don't care if it's because Mich is a douche. X still needs to play the game. It's not about Mick. It's not about UC. It's not about X being "disrespected". It's about a special game that needs to continue. Skip would've played the game anywhere.

[Tardy Turtle]

Good question? More like stupid question. It's a friggin basketball game. Get over yourselves.

Hmmm... you know, I was starting to feel a bit uppity. Thanks for the advice!

Also, good to see you got that appointment to the post of Arbiter of Question Validity.

[LadyMuskie]

You know I love you Lady, but just stop.

You first!

[waggy]

I could understand arbiter of questionable validity. That makes a lot more sense.

[paulxu]

I assume that Mick feels the enviroment on the home courts became too toxic.

You can't actually be serious? I really would like a good reason from UC's perspective for not playing the games at home.
That's a bullshit reason. As I noted many times before, there are fights everyday in sports. Nobody else moves to a neutral court because a home court got "toxic." That's asinine.

[Juice]

I assume that Mick feels the enviroment on the home courts became too toxic.

I know that's what he is saying but I doubt that is what he truly believes. The home court-toxic argument is the only way he can justify not going back to Cintas. He's chickenshit.

[xucub]

Somebody needs to remind McMick that the fight occurred on the floor between the players right in front of his bench....it did not occur in the stands where the fans were. Thus, the "toxic environment" comment holds no validity

Oh, and if the problem was the fans, then how does putting 8000 fans from each of the schools in the same building make any sense.

[MuskieFN]

Just for the heck of it: I think I recall Mick also saying in December that he would like to see the game played later in the year. This was the first year in a long time that X hasn't had a late season OOC game. Maybe playing it back on campus and later in the year is a workable compromise.

Or not, because that's the way things go.

I've become agnostic on the whole matter. The bottom line is there are a lot of people with money in Cincinnati who can entice both programs to continue a series that the community enjoys each winter. But that's a complete guess.

[xubrew]

You can't actually be serious? I really would like a good reason from UC's perspective for not playing the games at home.
That's a bullshit reason. As I noted many times before, there are fights everyday in sports. Nobody else moves to a neutral court because a home court got "toxic." That's asinine.

That is a bullshit reason, I agree. There are reasons that are not bullshit, though.

8500 tickets every year is more than 13,000 tickets every two years (or however big the Shoe is). Playing it downtown could generate more money.

Neutral sites are favored by the committee.

You could probably solicit more money out of Skyline by allowing them to put a great big logo at mid court.

It's more unique to have a hostile environment between two rivals that are NCAA Tournament caliber teams in front of a split crowd with student sectons behind each basket.

Why do Illinois and Missouri do it??

Why do West Virginia and Marshall do it??

Why do BYU and Utah State do it (now)??

Why do Pitt and Duquesne do it??

Why do several of the Big Five schools do it??

Why do the four Indiana schools play the Crossroads games at a neutral site??

It's not like wanting it at a neutral site is something that's so far out of left field that no other out of conference rivals do it. There are mutual advantages to doing it. There are mutual advantages to not doing it was well, but it isn't as if moving it downtown would give UC some sort of extreme upper hand on us. It won't. Playing it on campus doesn't give us some sort of huge advantage over them either. That's why the debate is so stupid, and it is beyond silly to end the series over something like this.

[beatuc]

For two years now nobody has really cared that much to go watch the game at US Bank Arena. I don't view the shootout as an opportunity to impress the committee. If it does then that's a bonus to the school who won. I view the shootout as an event, and right now the event is garbage. The only way to get fan intensity and interest back is to move back to campuses. If it doesn't go back to campuses then this event is dead. I know other schools do it, but they also sell out the venues they play in. Right now the shootout is a joke so if it doesn't continue because Xavier doesn't want to play at US Bank then so be it.

[XUFan09]

As someone who grew up in St. Louis as a Mizzou fan, went to grad school at Duquesne, and lived in both Morgantown and Charleston, WV, I have to say that those rivalries are nothing like the Shootout (just because I'm a stickler for exactness). Now, with the Big 5, that's a compelling comparison.

Sent from my DROID RAZR HD using Tapatalk

[paulxu]

That's a lot of toxic home court environments...and a lot of Mick Cronins.

[MuskieFN]

The one thing I do not understand is the bent against U.S. Bank Arena as an arena. I love Cintas Center because of what it means to the school and the program. But I'd watch Xavier basketball anywhere.

[Juice]

The one thing I do not understand is the bent against U.S. Bank Arena as an arena. I love Cintas Center because of what it means to the school and the program. But I'd watch Xavier basketball anywhere.

It's a horrible arena to watch a game, UC fans buy more tickets therefore negating any type of home court advantage Xavier could have every other year, and Xavier makes less money on the game when it's held at US Bank.

[xubrew]

I agree that those rivalries are nothing like the Shootout, but a lot of the reasons they are played on neutral floors could apply to the Shootout. I think the two biggest reasons are money and atmosphere.

Again, what advantage does UC have that Xavier doesn't if the game is downtown??

What advantage does Xavier have that UC doesn't if it's at campus sites??

All Xavier fans think UC wants it downtown because of some sort of ploy, and the UC fans feel the same about Xavier wanting it on campus. That doesn't make any sense. It also doesn't make any sense to think that players are less likely to brawl again (as some UC fans do). That's so stupid I don't even know where to start. With that logic, we should never play at US Bank because of all the brawls the Cyclones get in to.

Everyone seemingly feels strongly about his, yet no one makes any sense as to why they feel the way that they do. I just feel it's going to end because both sides feel so strongly about it for such stupid reasons, that they'd just rather not play at all than work something out.

The best argument I've heard is the atmosphere at US Bank is lousy compared to campus, but that can be changed if the game were to be included with season tickets. By the time all the season ticket holders and students get their tickets, there won't be but a few thousand left to sell, and they could easily sell them if they don't jack the prices up to triple digits like they have been. Just like those other OOC rivalries that are at neutral sites, it could be a great event at US Bank if they managed it better.

[nuts4xu]

It's a horrible arena to watch a game, UC fans buy more tickets therefore negating any type of home court advantage Xavier could have every other year, and Xavier makes less money on the game when it's held at US Bank.

First and foremost, I think it's best to play this game on each campus.

I understand many of the reasons to not play at US Bank Arena, but I would prefer Us Bank over a lot of other venues in the area....including Rupp Arena. I have no problem with Xavier insisting we play a home and home, but if we must play this game at US Bank, I could warm up to the idea.

[Juice]

First and foremost, I think it's best to play this game on each campus.

I understand many of the reasons to not play at US Bank Arena, but I would prefer Us Bank over a lot of other venues in the area....including Rupp Arena. I have no problem with Xavier insisting we play a home and home, but if we must play this game at US Bank, I could warm up to the idea.

I also would prefer this game to be played but I just don't like the idea of giving into UC's, and more specifically Mick's, demands.

[XUGRAD80]

UC will probably never include the game in the season ticket package, because of the season ticket base at UC being so weak. The difference is even greater than just having more tickets sold, because they can charge more per ticket for the individual game, than they can increase the cost of the season ticket package. People already know that they can get tickets to any UC home game without having season tickets, raising the cost of season tickets would only decrease demand even more.

When in doubt.........just follow the money

[X-man]

People need to stop worrying about saving face, and instead worry about saving the game. Start taking the position of stewardship, instead of this nebulus demand for respect.

UC controls whether this game continues. Xavier has made a reasonable offer to play the game. If the game isn't played, it'll be because UC declined to play on each school's home court (where it belongs). And for those in need of RESPECT, Just wait see how that works out for you.

Fixed that for you.

[james notsirhc 0]

I agree that these games belong back on the home courts, but this rivalry has to continue. You don't break 60 years of tradition. Nut up and agree to play neutral for two more years. They've been whining for 12 out of the past 18 years, what'd you expect from the bear kitties

[paulxu]

I agree that those rivalries are nothing like the Shootout, but a lot of the reasons they are played on neutral floors could apply to the Shootout. I think the two biggest reasons are money and atmosphere.

What I have yet to see is a good reason why UC wants this as a neutral site game.
We all agree that the "toxic environment" nonsense is just that. Nonsense.

If there is a reason, it is because the built in advantage of home court is something UC does not want Xavier to have, every other year.

I'm not buying the money/atmosphere reasoning, and here's why.

Atmosphere is something you get every other year, allowing your home supporters a chance to create it at "their" place. They pay good money and have built an arena for it. If they wanted to split the atmosphere 50/50, giving each fan base an equal share, they'd have all their games at a neutral site.

And, if the money is so important, and you can make so much more with 1/2 of a neutral site every year vs. your own place every other year...then why don't you play all your games at neutral sites? Just think of how much more money we could have made over the years if we had played every Dayton game, or every UC game at US Bank.

I would support considering a neutral site when and if UC can come up with a valid reason it should be neutral. I'm still waiting. I don't think it's at all unreasonable that if your opponent seeks to create an advantage (taking away your natural home court advantage) that you say "hold on. Why should I give that up; I'm not asking you to give it up."

[james notsirhc 0]

As previously stated, I want this to go back to the home and home scheduling. BUT playing devils advocate, the "toxic environment" could be a reference to the 10 technicals in the three years BEFORE the brawl in comparison to 2 technicals in the two years at US bank. Like it or not, home crowds really rile up the crowd in a rivalry game like this. I still say this series must go on. Let the whole brawl thing cool down, and demand home to home in a couple years. This is the game I get the most excited for on X's schedule, do we really want to lose it?

[X-man]

As previously stated, I want this to go back to the home and home scheduling. BUT playing devils advocate, the "toxic environment" could be a reference to the 10 technicals in the three years BEFORE the brawl in comparison to 2 technicals in the two years at US bank. Like it or not, home crowds really rile up the crowd in a rivalry game like this. I still say this series must go on. Let the whole brawl thing cool down, and demand home to home in a couple years. This is the game I get the most excited for on X's schedule, do we really want to lose it?

Wha'????? You mean it hasn't cooled down yet? As far as excitement, I get excited when it's played on each school's home court. I could care less about the game when it's played at that dump downtown where uc has a built-in advantage every year regardless of which team is the "home team". We all know, BTW, that this is the real reason the YTG won't go back to a home-and-home schedule. He is such a pussy.

[murray87]

Ditto what X-Man said. The "brawl thing" would have cooled down quickly if not for the self-flaggelation by the two administrations (particulary Xavier's). All the apologies and idiotic talk of "reflection sessions" were unnecessary scab picking and then the PC act continues by renaming it a "showdown." Blech!

[xubrew]

I also would prefer this game to be played but I just don't like the idea of giving into UC's, and more specifically Mick's, demands.

I think that's the problem. Neither side wants to give in to the other's "demands."

It's divorce court. They don't like the idea of the other person getting what they want, even though it really isn't that damned important. They're still going to fight them on it. UC wants it downtown because we want it on campus, and we want it on campus because UC wants it downtown. No other reasons.

Either way, it's on equal terms. That's what is so ridiculous. Whether it's home and home or neutral, it's still on equal terms. It's one thing if UC wants it to alternate between 5/3rd and US Bank, or if Xavier wanted it at Cintas and US Bank. They don't, though. We're arguing over something that will potentially end the series, and both sides of the argument are completely fair.

I cannot get over that, and will be really pissed off if this isn't resolved.

[xubrew]

As previously stated, I want this to go back to the home and home scheduling. BUT playing devils advocate, the "toxic environment" could be a reference to the 10 technicals in the three years BEFORE the brawl in comparison to 2 technicals in the two years at US bank. Like it or not, home crowds really rile up the crowd in a rivalry game like this. I still say this series must go on. Let the whole brawl thing cool down, and demand home to home in a couple years. This is the game I get the most excited for on X's schedule, do we really want to lose it?

We really need to stop talking about the brawl. I wouldn't care if it were never mentioned again.

But, since you brought it up, saying that the brawl was the result of toxic fan environments on campus and that it wouldn't have occurred at US Bank is kind of like saying I wouldn't have wrecked the car had it been painted a different color. It had nothing to do with anything. The players got into the fight, and it isn't any less likely to happen at a neutral site than a campus site.

And, if we are going to use that logic, then lets get the hell out of US Bank. There are tons of hockey fights in that building. It's a toxic environment.

[GoMuskies]

I, on the other hand, don't think it's worth saving if the game's going to be downtown. I think it sucks, and I'd almost rather play another buy game on campus than play UC downtown.

But I don't live in town, so my vote really shouldn't count (not that any of us have votes that count).

[xubrew]

What I have yet to see is a good reason why UC wants this as a neutral site game.
We all agree that the "toxic environment" nonsense is just that. Nonsense.

If there is a reason, it is because the built in advantage of home court is something UC does not want Xavier to have, every other year.

I'm not buying the money/atmosphere reasoning, and here's why.

Atmosphere is something you get every other year, allowing your home supporters a chance to create it at "their" place. They pay good money and have built an arena for it. If they wanted to split the atmosphere 50/50, giving each fan base an equal share, they'd have all their games at a neutral site.

And, if the money is so important, and you can make so much more with 1/2 of a neutral site every year vs. your own place every other year...then why don't you play all your games at neutral sites? Just think of how much more money we could have made over the years if we had played every Dayton game, or every UC game at US Bank.

I would support considering a neutral site when and if UC can come up with a valid reason it should be neutral. I'm still waiting. I don't think it's at all unreasonable that if your opponent seeks to create an advantage (taking away your natural home court advantage) that you say "hold on. Why should I give that up; I'm not asking you to give it up."

Paul, what I meant by atmosphere was a neutral floor NCAA Tournament type atmosphere as opposed to a home game atmosphere.

There are teams that seek this out. Kentucky likes to play a game or two a year in a dome. Over a similar dispute, Kentucky and Indiana no longer play because Kentucky wanted it in Lucas Oil Stadium every year, and Indiana wanted it on campus. Kentucky's reason was that they wanted a domed atmosphere. That's why they played Baylor at Jerry World in Dallas earlier this year.

I'm not saying it's a reason that I entirely agree with, but there are certain teams that do want a neutral floor game. The idea of being able to sell 8500 tickets to a site that's technically a neutral site is appealing. I get that. I'm not speaking about UC specifically, but I do think that a lot of teams who have moved the games to neutral sites did it because they felt it was mutually beneficial.

[danaandvictory]

Seeking out an NCAA Tournament atmosphere is a fine reason to play a neutral site game - as is playing in a dome to acclimate your players to that challenge prior to March. I think Cal is right to do so. But neither of those justifications were ever floated as a reason to move the XU-UC game downtown.

That said, I think you've convinced me that the game should go forward (if at US Bank) over discontinuing it entirely. It would be nice if X could work the tickets into the season ticket package in alternating years, though.

[X-man]

Paul, what I meant by atmosphere was a neutral floor NCAA Tournament type atmosphere as opposed to a home game atmosphere.

There are teams that seek this out. Kentucky likes to play a game or two a year in a dome. Over a similar dispute, Kentucky and Indiana no longer play because Kentucky wanted it in Lucas Oil Stadium every year, and Indiana wanted it on campus. Kentucky's reason was that they wanted a domed atmosphere. That's why they played Baylor at Jerry World in Dallas earlier this year.

I'm not saying it's a reason that I entirely agree with, but there are certain teams that do want a neutral floor game. The idea of being able to sell 8500 tickets to a site that's technically a neutral site is appealing. I get that. I'm not speaking about UC specifically, but I do think that a lot of teams who have moved the games to neutral sites did it because they felt it was mutually beneficial.

Those teams, like UK and uc, aren't looking for "neutral floor" games at all. They are looking for sites where their fans will be in the majority and therefore sites where a "neutral" floor is actually a "home advantage" for them. I don't want to play that game, and I urge Xavier to hold to its guns. The YTG and his minions are simply hypocrites, cynically playing a game under false pretenses.

[james notsirhc 0]

We really need to stop talking about the brawl. I wouldn't care if it were never mentioned again.

But, since you brought it up, saying that the brawl was the result of toxic fan environments on campus and that it wouldn't have occurred at US Bank is kind of like saying I wouldn't have wrecked the car had it been painted a different color. It had nothing to do with anything. The players got into the fight, and it isn't any less likely to happen at a neutral site than a campus site.

And, if we are going to use that logic, then lets get the hell out of US Bank. There are tons of hockey fights in that building. It's a toxic environment.

Just playing devil's advocate guys haha. I think it's stupid as well and as XUBREW said I think both schools don't want to budge. All I was saying that it was a build up of super emotional games, hence the huge amount of technicals. I want to see this game continue at almost all costs, but I'm clearly in the minority. I just love that matchup too much to let it go

[xsteve1]

X pretty much has to play this game with such a weak OOC next year.

[xubrew]

You can fit all of Rupp Arena and Assembly Hall into Lucas Oil Stadium. The proposal was an even split on tickets where each school got more tickets than their home arenas sat. I cannot stand either Kentucky or Indiana, but that's pretty awesome if you ask me.

They wanted to play a showcase game in a football stadium in front of 50,000 people. You cannot create that atmosphere in a regular home and home series. If the game was in Indianapolis every year, Indiana would have had just as many fans there as Kentucky would have.

Illinois and Missouri love playing in Saint Louis. It's a unique atmosphere that is a completely even split.

Same with BYU and Utah State.

I don't know why this is so impossible for some people to believe, but teams do schedule games at neutral sites simply because they want to play at a neutral site in front of a split crowd.

Like I said earlier, I think the biggest reason UC wants it downtown is because Xavier does not want it downtown. It has nothing to do with an advantage. It just has to do with not wanting to give in to the other side, even though neither side's terms are unreasonable at all.

[danaandvictory]

It would be funny if Cronin got the Marquette job. I wonder if he'd petition the Big East to play the X home game at a neutral site, like, say, Chicago.

[Masterofreality]

They'll play the game.

This is all a bunch of needless posturing.

[casualfan]

It would be funny if Cronin got the Marquette job. I wonder if he'd petition the Big East to play the X home game at a neutral site, like, say, Chicago.

Cronin and Buzz are buddies. I doubt he'd even consider it given that Buzz obviously had his reasons for leaving.

In fact Mick was the one who helped get Buzz in touch with VT.

[xubrew]

They'll play the game.

This is all a bunch of needless posturing.

I think that you're right, and I hope that you are.

[wkrq59]

There really is only one person who doesn't want to play on campus--Mick Cronin. Time for Xavier to go public with a campaign to let UC play its home game in US Bank and Xavier play at Cintas. It's our home arena and anything less is not acceptable. The fight has been over four years now and it's time for things to return to normal. And if Mick can't accept that, tell him to go elsewhere. Xavier's home is still and will be Cintas.

[xsteve1]

There really is only one person who doesn't want to play on campus--Mick Cronin. Time for Xavier to go public with a campaign to let UC play its home game in US Bank and Xavier play at Cintas. It's our home arena and anything less is not acceptable. The fight has been over four years now and it's time for things to return to normal. And if Mick can't accept that, tell him to go elsewhere. Xavier's home is still and will be Cintas.

X won't play at UD any longer. I'm pretty sure Chris Mack is the main reason X doesn't want to go back up there.

[X-man]

X won't play at UD any longer. I'm pretty sure Chris Mack is the main reason X doesn't want to go back up there.

Your point?

[nuts4xu]

X won't play at UD any longer. I'm pretty sure Chris Mack is the main reason X doesn't want to go back up there.

Chris Mack is not the reason we won't play at UD any longer. Greg Christopher isn't keen on the idea either. There are a bunch of reasons why we won't be playing at ud any time soon.

Now that we are in the Big East, we have less to gain by playing at their arena. We won't be going to Millett Hall again any time soon either for the same reason.

[danaandvictory]

Cronin and Buzz are buddies. I doubt he'd even consider it given that Buzz obviously had his reasons for leaving.

In fact Mick was the one who helped get Buzz in touch with VT.

I am aware of this. It was a joke.

[bleedXblue]

The cooling off period is over.

Its been two years.

If we all didn't learn some lessons shame on us.

If Mick doesn't want to play X, he should grow a pair and just come out and say it.

[xubrew]

Chris Mack is not the reason we won't play at UD any longer. Greg Christopher isn't keen on the idea either. There are a bunch of reasons why we won't be playing at ud any time soon.

Now that we are in the Big East, we have less to gain by playing at their arena. We won't be going to Millett Hall again any time soon either for the same reason.

I'm curious to see who we'll be playing instead that will allow Xavier to gain more.

[Xavier]

I'm curious to see who we'll be playing instead that will allow Xavier to gain more.

I think their are a lot of teams X can play that are on Daytons level. I don't care if they play or not but I do see the value. A good, tough road game that is only 30 minutes away. If we played Dayton and beat them on the road this year, Xavier would not have been in the play-in game. It isn't like X has to fly and be a true road game and I think that is a benefit. But I do think they are easily replaceable. Heck, if X did beat them at UD this year- X would have been in the tournament and UD may have been completely out. I think getting a home and home with a bubble team should be easy. So while I see value, it is silly to think X can't find a team to replace a Dayton.

[GoMuskies]

I'm curious to see who we'll be playing instead that will allow Xavier to gain more.

How about, say, Wichita State?

[X-band '01]

You can fit all of Rupp Arena and Assembly Hall into Lucas Oil Stadium. The proposal was an even split on tickets where each school got more tickets than their home arenas sat. I cannot stand either Kentucky or Indiana, but that's pretty awesome if you ask me.

They wanted to play a showcase game in a football stadium in front of 50,000 people. You cannot create that atmosphere in a regular home and home series. If the game was in Indianapolis every year, Indiana would have had just as many fans there as Kentucky would have.

Illinois and Missouri love playing in Saint Louis. It's a unique atmosphere that is a completely even split.

Same with BYU and Utah State.

I don't know why this is so impossible for some people to believe, but teams do schedule games at neutral sites simply because they want to play at a neutral site in front of a split crowd.

Like I said earlier, I think the biggest reason UC wants it downtown is because Xavier does not want it downtown. It has nothing to do with an advantage. It just has to do with not wanting to give in to the other side, even though neither side's terms are unreasonable at all.

It's also possible to go from a neutral site to home-and-home. For years, Villanova would only play Big 5 games at home and at the Palestra in lieu of road games. Only in the past couple of years have all 5 teams had true home-and-away series. I haven't heard Villanova fans or Jay Wright complain about mistreatment from the Hawks and their fans, but then again all they do is just curb-stomp them and go back to the Main Line at the end of the day.

[throwbackmuskie]

I will say it again, if US Bank wasn't a dump and worse than Cintas and even 5/3 I would have no issues playing this game there, but it is not, this game deserves the respect of playing in a great arena.

[xubrew]

I think their are a lot of teams X can play that are on Daytons level. I don't care if they play or not but I do see the value. A good, tough road game that is only 30 minutes away. If we played Dayton and beat them on the road this year, Xavier would not have been in the play-in game. It isn't like X has to fly and be a true road game and I think that is a benefit. But I do think they are easily replaceable. Heck, if X did beat them at UD this year- X would have been in the tournament and UD may have been completely out. I think getting a home and home with a bubble team should be easy. So while I see value, it is silly to think X can't find a team to replace a Dayton.

I agree. Like I said, I'm curious to see who we end up with. Missouri and Illinois are both looking for home and homes.

Georgia State is looking for a buy game. I'm not a fan of buy games, but if we're going to schedule them, I'd rather see us play a team like Georgia State.

Louisiana Tech is basically willing to go anywhere. They'd be a good buy game too.

I'm not saying there aren't good games to schedule. I'd like to play Dayton. It's always fun to play the teams you hate, and I agree with you that there is value to it. I'd much prefer to play them than a crappy buy game. But, there are other teams to play. There are also better teams to play. If we don't play them, then I hope it's because we were able to schedule better games and not because we just don't want to play them.

There is actually going to be a "scheduling session" at this year's coaches convention that Basketball Travelers is hosting. It'll be interesting to see what, if any, series come out of that for us and for a bunch of other teams.


How about, say, Wichita State?

I would actually love that series. Probably not as much as you, but I think it would be a great series.

[blobfan]

I think that's the problem. Neither side wants to give in to the other's "demands."

It's divorce court. They don't like the idea of the other person getting what they want, even though it really isn't that damned important. They're still going to fight them on it. UC wants it downtown because we want it on campus, and we want it on campus because UC wants it downtown. No other reasons.

Either way, it's on equal terms. That's what is so ridiculous. Whether it's home and home or neutral, it's still on equal terms. It's one thing if UC wants it to alternate between 5/3rd and US Bank, or if Xavier wanted it at Cintas and US Bank. They don't, though. We're arguing over something that will potentially end the series, and both sides of the argument are completely fair.

I cannot get over that, and will be really pissed off if this isn't resolved.

That's not true. Given the greater number of UC alums, they will likely always have more fans in attendance at a neutral site game.

And people in this thread have given many reasons why the game should return to Cintas that have nothing to do with UC wanting it downtown. I am not a fan of US Bank arena or the increased ticket cost. I just don't think the quality of the location demands the prices they are asking. I'm not going to pay premium price for a crappy seat at a supposedly neutral venue where I'm outnumbered by opposing team fans. It's a joke and not a funny one.

[LA Muskie]

That's not true. Given the greater number of UC alums, they will likely always have more fans in attendance at a neutral site game.
So I'm confused. Do UC fans suck or not? I keep hearing about how they suck and don't support their team, yet we're worried that they will turn neutral site US Bank games into quasi home games. Am I missing something? Do they suck all year long except for the Crosstown? (Maybe that's the answer to my question???)

[throwbackmuskie]

So I'm confused. Do UC fans suck or not? I keep hearing about how they suck and don't support their team, yet we're worried that they will turn neutral site US Bank games into quasi home games. Am I missing something? Do they suck all year long except for the Crosstown? (Maybe that's the answer to my question???)

I would say that is true

[GoMuskies]

I think UC fans smell, and no one wants to go downtown and sit among them.

[xubrew]

That's not true. Given the greater number of UC alums, they will likely always have more fans in attendance at a neutral site game.

And people in this thread have given many reasons why the game should return to Cintas that have nothing to do with UC wanting it downtown. I am not a fan of US Bank arena or the increased ticket cost. I just don't think the quality of the location demands the prices they are asking. I'm not going to pay premium price for a crappy seat at a supposedly neutral venue where I'm outnumbered by opposing team fans. It's a joke and not a funny one.

Okay, so what if it stayed at US Bank, but the tickets were managed differently?? I agree that it's a huge problem, and it does screw up the game because no one wants to go.

I'd like it a lot better if tickets were split between the two schools, and the game is included with season ticket holders every year. Whatever tickets are left over can be sold by the athletic departments at a price they feel is reasonable to fans. I'm assuming that a third party ticket vender is jacking up the prices, and I agree that is a huge problem. What if both Xavier and UC each got half the tickets, and it was up to their own ticket offices to handle them?? I would hope that would mean including the game with the season ticket package, and not gouging the fans.

[Masterofreality]

USeless Bunk stinks, but we did make lots of 3 pointers there....

[beatuc]

Okay, so what if it stayed at US Bank, but the tickets were managed differently?? I agree that it's a huge problem, and it does screw up the game because no one wants to go.

I'd like it a lot better if tickets were split between the two schools, and the game is included with season ticket holders every year. Whatever tickets are left over can be sold by the athletic departments at a price they feel is reasonable to fans. I'm assuming that a third party ticket vender is jacking up the prices, and I agree that is a huge problem. What if both Xavier and UC each got half the tickets, and it was up to their own ticket offices to handle them?? I would hope that would mean including the game with the season ticket package, and not gouging the fans.

You keep giving reasons on why Xavier won't budge and how that's BS. I know for a fact that the Xavier administration at it's banquets was asked about including the shootout in the Season ticket package and said they would like to, but their hands are tied. So if you can't accept that Xavier might hold it's ground for self-dignity then I don't' know what to tell you. I think most people know what Mick's stance on the shootout was before the brawl, and now that the brawl happened Mick has a reason to cry like a baby to get his way. I truly believe that Xavier isn't the problem with getting a deal done with the shootout, it's Mick Cronin. Would you rather Xavier just get down on it's knees just so the shootout can happen?

[xubrew]

You keep giving reasons on why Xavier won't budge and how that's BS. I know for a fact that the Xavier administration at it's banquets was asked about including the shootout in the Season ticket package and said they would like to, but their hands are tied. So if you can't accept that Xavier might hold it's ground for self-dignity then I don't' know what to tell you. I think most people know what Mick's stance on the shootout was before the brawl, and now that the brawl happened Mick has a reason to cry like a baby to get his way. I truly believe that Xavier isn't the problem with getting a deal done with the shootout, it's Mick Cronin. Would you rather Xavier just get down on it's knees just so the shootout can happen?

Of course not.

I would rather us say that we'll stay downtown, but the tickets will have to be managed differently if we do, if tickets are really what the problem is. Have we proposed that?? Everyone on this thread seems to be saying that our stance is that we just won't play unless it is brought back to campus. I take that to mean we're not even willing to explore ways to make the neutral site less shitty.

Just to be clear, I think it's bullshit that neither side will budge, especially when the terms are equal either way. Not just Xavier. I don't consider playing at a neutral site getting down on your knees. I wouldn't want Xavier to agree to anything that wasn't on equal terms (ie games at 5/3rd, but not Cintas). A neutral site doesn't fall into that category, and if there are ways to make it better, then lets to that rather than shut it down.

[beatuc]

Of course not.

I would rather us say that we'll stay downtown, but the tickets will have to be managed differently if we do. Have we proposed that?? Everyone on this thread seems to be saying that our stance is that we just won't play unless it is brought back to campus. I take that to mean we're not even willing to explore ways to make the neutral site less shitty.

Just to be clear, I think it's bullshit that neither side will budge, especially when the terms are equal either way. Not just Xavier.

I don't think Mick will budge unless the UC administration forces him to. Xavier would definitely love to get the games back on campus, but I think they would accept the season ticket package offering. I think I read that UC has less than 2,000 season ticket holders. I don't know how many Xavier has, but it is probably a lot more than that. I view the whole thing as other posters do, that Mick wants an advantage any way he get can get it. Mick doesn't want to lose to Xavier and will try to gain an advantage at all costs. His comments over the year's alone would suggest that.

[LA Muskie]

Both sides are being stubborn; neither side has budged. Unless and until we get past that fundamental fact, it's impossible to have a reasoned discussion about this. It's not just UC. It's not just XU. It's both.

[paulxu]

If wanting the series to be an equal home/home in alternate years (which is the way it was before UC mucked it up with the neutral site crap) then count me in the stubborn camp.

And why is that being stubborn? It's not asking for anything unequal, or unusual, or new, or different than before.

[chico]

Like I said earlier, I think the biggest reason UC wants it downtown is because Xavier does not want it downtown. It has nothing to do with an advantage. It just has to do with not wanting to give in to the other side, even though neither side's terms are unreasonable at all.

This is interesting, because I have not heard this accusation anywhere else. What makes you think the main reason Xavier doesn't want to play downtown is because UC does? I've never seen this even hinted at by anyone associated with the game, or any rumor of this floated. Maybe I'm more out of the loop than I think but this is completely new to me.

And I'm with Paul - where is Xavier being stubborn? They met UC's demand to move it off campus. The prevailing thought at the time was that after a sufficient "cooling off" period that the game would go back to the campuses. Now that Xavier wants that UC is digging their heels in. (Of course, we knew UC had no intention of taking the game back on campus when this whole thing went down).

[Classof1985]

Wha'????? You mean it hasn't cooled down yet? As far as excitement, I get excited when it's played on each school's home court. I could care less about the game when it's played at that dump downtown where uc has a built-in advantage every year regardless of which team is the "home team". We all know, BTW, that this is the real reason the YTG won't go back to a home-and-home schedule. He is such a pussy.

Curious: why does UC have a built-in advantage as US Bank Arena? If half the seats are controlled by Xavier, and half by UC, how does that translate to an advantage for UC?

[Classof1985]

That's not true. Given the greater number of UC alums, they will likely always have more fans in attendance at a neutral site game.

And people in this thread have given many reasons why the game should return to Cintas that have nothing to do with UC wanting it downtown. I am not a fan of US Bank arena or the increased ticket cost. I just don't think the quality of the location demands the prices they are asking. I'm not going to pay premium price for a crappy seat at a supposedly neutral venue where I'm outnumbered by opposing team fans. It's a joke and not a funny one.

I don't understand this reasoning. You are saying that Xavier can get 10,250 fans to see the game in the Cintas Center, not not 8,500 (approximately) to seel out X's half of US Bank Arena? Why should the venue make that much difference?

[LA Muskie]

If wanting the series to be an equal home/home in alternate years (which is the way it was before UC mucked it up with the neutral site crap) then count me in the stubborn camp.

And why is that being stubborn? It's not asking for anything unequal, or unusual, or new, or different than before.
It's all perspective. And you're only seeing one side of it. Offering to play the game every year on a neutral court is equally fair in theory.

[LA Muskie]

Curious: why does UC have a built-in advantage as US Bank Arena? If half the seats are controlled by Xavier, and half by UC, how does that translate to an advantage for UC?

They don't. See, e.g. 2014.

[LA Muskie]

I don't understand this reasoning. You are saying that Xavier can get 10,250 fans to see the game in the Cintas Center, not not 8,500 (approximately) to seel out X's half of US Bank Arena? Why should the venue make that much difference?

It shouldn't.