The 2014 Coaching Carousel Chris Mack only Thread

[BMoreX]

Retweeted by Shannon Russell
Gary Parrish ‏@GaryParrishCBS 1m

Xavier coach Chris Mack has emerged as a legitimate target to replace Jeff Bzdelik at Wake Forest, sources told @CBSSports. Story coming ...

[mistabeecee41]

Gary Parrish ‏@GaryParrishCBS 1m
Xavier coach Chris Mack has emerged as a legitimate target to replace Jeff Bzdelik at Wake Forest, sources told @CBSSports. Story coming ...

[Muskie]

Why would Greg Christopher be out of here? Based on that tweet?

Oh I get it ... Christopher as in Chris Mack... not our AD.

[BandAid]

Figured this would pop up sooner or later. He certainly has connections there.

[casualfan]

Interesting.

They certainly wouldn't have to offer all that much for him to get a raise.

[RoseyMuskie]

Don't claim to have inside sources, but I view this more as a move by Mack to get Xavier to up his salary.

[Titanxman04]

Don't claim to have inside sources, but I view this more as a move by Mack to get Xavier to up his salary.

Lord knows he deserves it.

[THRILLHOUSE]

I've always figured that once Wake fired Bzdelik they would make Mack one of their top targets. I don't think he would take it, like Rosey said this could be a play by Mack to get more $ from X. Also wouldn't shock me if he took it either.

[Fireball]

I'd be surprised if he took it, but not completely shocked. I never thought Skip would leave, but he did. If Skip left, as much as he loved Xavier, then anyone could leave.

[XU2011]

If he takes it, I think it has a lot to do with our new AD.

It's pretty well known Mack and Bobinski had a great relationship. (Removed by Muskie)

[MD Muskie]

I'm prepared for him to take it. Its just the way of life with our school and basketball program. (that in no way means I want him to take it, I am a big fan of Mack and hope he stays)

What I'm not prepared for is the next coach, I don't think we have a guy that can just step right in like Miller and Mack did. Thus the hazy unclear future should mack leave scares me more.

[markchal]

I really hope they just pay Mack. That being said, I would be fine with Kelsey. It's not like Miller or Mack had a HC gig prior to coming aboard. I shudder to think what a coaching move would do to our recruiting class though.

(Removed by Muskie). I miss Bobinski.

[Muskie]

I really hope they just pay Mack. That being said, I would be fine with Kelsey. It's not like Miller or Mack had a HC gig prior to coming aboard. I shudder to think what a coaching move would do to our recruiting class though.

And I didn't know Christopher and Mack didn't get along. I miss Bobinski.

Kelsey is 34-30 at Winthrop.

[bigdiggins]

If he goes kiss the recruiting class goodbye. Coupled with the 3 transfers some people are estimating X could have 8 walk-ons next year (or more Jeff Robinson type emergency offers).

[markchal]

Kelsey is 34-30 at Winthrop.

He's been there two years. It's not like he was inheriting Jordan Crawford and Tu Holloway.

[JAX 3758]

I just dont get the Kelsey stuff

Picture Mack leaving and someone tells you the top candidate is the current coach at Winthrop who has a 34-30 record. Catch is his name is not Pat Kelsey.

This board would IMPLODE with anger but since it is Pat Kelsey everyone just accepts him as a candidate. Once again, I just dont get it

[mistabeecee41]

Full article released. Will see how this one plays out. Based off of what is said, not terribly concerned at this point.

http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/eye-on-college-basketball/24499172/xaviers-chris-mack-emerges-as-legitimate-target-at-wake-forest

[OH.X.MI]

Don't claim to have inside sources, but I view this more as a move by Mack to get Xavier to up his salary.

Agreed. The article that Parrish posted is just about the most wishy washy thing I have ever read. Just sounds like Wake has thrown Mack's name into their consideration pool... "boosters are endorsing his candidacy." What does that even mean? Parrish is a troll who will print anything to get clicks on his articles.

Not saying it couldn't happen. But I'm going to wait for some more substantial information before I start worrying about it.

[RoseyMuskie]

I like Coach Mack. I'm a supporter.

With that being said, I do think he would be replaceable in the long run with an equal talent. My concern is the short run. If he left, the program would go into disarray for a minimum of two years. I think Semaj and Martin likely leave, and the recruiting class coming in will be broken up. That's about as bad as it gets for us. We literally go from a legit contender in the Big East to a bottom feeder.

[bleedXblue]

When I see that X is consistently ranked as one of the Top 20 revenue producing college basketball teams year in and year out (by Forbes magazine).......and they pay their coaches towards the bottom tier of the Big East, one would wonder why in the hell you would do that. You have the money.........pay your guys if in fact you want to keep them here. Seems pretty damn straight forward to me.

[BMoreX]

What are the pros to leaving Xavier for Wake Forest?

What does WF bring to the table that Xavier doesn't?

Maybe more pay? The ACC...anything else?

[XU3232]

I'm getting really tired of this shit happening on basically a yearly basis.

[GoMuskies]

Further away from Snipe.

[Mack Attack]

Michael DeCourcy
‏@tsnmike
Of course Chris Mack is a target for Wake. But would he be interested? Has a better job.

Huge difference than being targeted and said target being interested. Maybe if Mack leaves we can target Coach K.

[Muskie]

Michael DeCourcy
‏@tsnmike
Of course Chris Mack is a target for Wake. But would he be interested? Has a better job.

Huge difference than being targeted and said target being interested. Maybe if Mack leaves we can target Coach K.

I hear X is targeting John Wooden Circa 1967.

[bleedXblue]

What are the pros to leaving Xavier for Wake Forest?

What does WF bring to the table that Xavier doesn't?

Maybe more pay? The ACC...anything else?


He has a pretty good thing going here......with a great recruiting class coming in next year.

Both families from the area.

I would be surprised to see him take the Wake job.

Lots of uncertainty....but a better league getting to coach against some of the greats.

[bleedXblue]

I'm getting really tired of this shit happening on basically a yearly basis.

X should step up and pay the man what his market value is.

[PM Thor]

I'm getting really tired of this shit happening on basically a yearly basis.

I kind of look at it on the flipside. If nobody is putting your coach on their "potential targets" list, then your coach isn't doing a good job. Coaching is a business, being wanted proves that others see you are doing something right.

[xsteve1]

Agree with Decoursey. Wake is nowhere's land, especially in the New ACC.

[SixFig]

Changed title due to confusion

[casualfan]

Agree with Decoursey. Wake is nowhere's land, especially in the New ACC.

$ Talks.

[xu2002]

Agree with Decoursey. Wake is nowhere's land, especially in the New ACC.

I agree. It's not Virginia Tech bad but it's not good!

[XUBob]

I would suggest that those of us who support Chris write the AD and express your feeling, I just did.

[danaandvictory]

With that being said, I do think he would be replaceable in the long run with an equal talent. My concern is the short run. If he left, the program would go into disarray for a minimum of two years. I think Semaj and Martin likely leave, and the recruiting class coming in will be broken up. That's about as bad as it gets for us. We literally go from a legit contender in the Big East to a bottom feeder.

Yep. Mack leaving would likely occasion a 2-3 year rebuilding process. X is going to have to significantly upgrade their pay scale whether or not he leaves, so you might as well do it now and avoid that rebuilding process.

[XU3232]

I kind of look at it on the flipside. If nobody is putting your coach on their "potential targets" list, then your coach isn't doing a good job. Coaching is a business, being wanted proves that others see you are doing something right.

I understand and I agree with you, but I'm not going to say that I still don't think it sucks and it gets old being the stepping stone.

[GoMuskies]

$ Talks.

Agreed. If Wake is going to double Mack's salary, and Xavier is not going to match (or come close), I could definitely see him taking it. I suppose it's even possible that Xavier's new AD wouldn't mind having Mack leave. I have no idea.

[Caveat]

I'm getting really tired of this shit happening on basically a yearly basis.

It's not like Xavier is unique in this regard. Happens at lots of other schools too, outside of the true "destination" jobs.

I'll put stock in things when it moves from just him being "On a list." Reality is that there are probably a lot of lists he's on. Doesn't mean that he's going anywhere.

[XU3232]

X should step up and pay the man what his market value is.

Couldn't agree more... they should have the money to do it now too with the new TV deal.

[XUBob]

I believe that Christopher payed his coaches at BG well, top of the MAC. Hopefully he does the same here.

[Muskie]

I guess we'll see how much those out there affected our ability to give coaches raises by withholding donations over Fr. Graham. There were thousands of you right?

[LadyMuskie]

I guess we'll see how much those out there affected our ability to give coaches raises by withholding donations over Fr. Graham. There were thousands of you right?

Thousands or just Gladdenguy?

[xu2002]

I would suggest that those of us who support Chris write the AD and express your feeling, I just did.

I've already sent an email of support for Chris Mack. Kept it short and courteous.

[X-band '01]

Thousands or just Gladdenguy?

We're splitting hairs here. I don't recall him going on the record saying he wouldn't donate to Xavier's athletics program.

All For One and the regular university endowment are 2 different animals.

[paulxu]

I guess we'll see how much those out there affected our ability to give coaches raises by withholding donations over Fr. Graham. There were thousands of you right?

Is that Mike Graham you're talking about?

[GoMuskies]

Is that Mike Graham you're talking about?

Is that how we're referring to him going forward?

[The_Mack_Pack]

Nothing like the annual coaching carousel.. It can never end quick enough.

[The_Mack_Pack]

I thought Wake was trying to start fresh and remove themselves from the Skip Prosser coaching tree.

[RoseyMuskie]

At surface level, he uses this as bargaining power, stays another season, bolsters his profile, and gets an even better offer next season.

My concern is that he knows something we don't, such as Semaj's departure, and is concerned that he won't get the offer that he is getting this offseason.

If I recall correctly, X offered Miller in the $1.75 MM range before he departed for Arizona. Mack may not be at Miller level, but given the Miller offer and the new BE TV deal, X has the financial capacity to bump his salary.

[paulxu]

Gaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhh

[Masterofreality]

I've already sent an email of support for Chris Mack. Kept it short and courteous.

As have I. We can't keep churning Coaches. Kills recruiting.

[bleedXblue]

As have I. We can't keep churning Coaches. Kills recruiting.

Christopher looks as though he was asleep at the wheel. You gotta be proactive. You have to make sure your coach is well taken care of. This could be a huge mistake that sets us back another 2-3 years.

[Muskie]

Christopher looks as though he was asleep at the wheel. You gotta be proactive. You have to make sure your coach is well taken care of. This could be a huge mistake that sets us back another 2-3 years.
I doubt that.

[bleedXblue]

I doubt that.

If he goes he takes at least half the incoming class with him.......that usually how it works.

[XU2011]

I doubt that.

You doubt Christopher was asleep at the wheel or doubt this could set us back 2-3 years? Both seem very plausible to me. The first wouldn't surprise me at all... and the second is absolutely true. If Mack goes, I'd guess both Semaj and Martin go. That is killer right there. And there is no way the new coach keeps the current class together, especially if he comes from outside the program. This scares me because we don't have a head coach in waiting. 3 out of the last 4 coaching changes we had that and that was a big reason for continuing and sustaining the success and upward trajectory of the program.

[Xavgrad08]

I want Chris to stay so the program has some continuity. X needs to pay Mack and up the pay of the assistants. The big unknown is how Christopher views Mack, or how Mack views Christopher. If Mack wants out Wake could be a decent opportunity. Although, I would rank Wake below Duke, UNC, Syracuse, Pittsburgh and NC State in the ACC. We should no more in the next 48 hours.

[sirthought]

You doubt Christopher was asleep at the wheel or doubt this could set us back 2-3 years? Both seem very plausible to me. The first wouldn't surprise me at all... and the second is absolutely true. If Mack goes, I'd guess both Semaj and Martin go. That is killer right there. And there is no way the new coach keeps the current class together, especially if he comes from outside the program. This scares me because we don't have a head coach in waiting. 3 out of the last 4 coaching changes we had that and that was a big reason for continuing and sustaining the success and upward trajectory of the program.


When is signing day? I thought these guys signed in February, but Rivals shows them all as solid verbals.

[GoMuskies]

When is signing day? I thought these guys signed in February, but Rivals shows them all as solid verbals.

They've all signed LOIs. Some may ask out if Mack goes, though.

[Caveat]

Christopher looks as though he was asleep at the wheel. You gotta be proactive. You have to make sure your coach is well taken care of. This could be a huge mistake that sets us back another 2-3 years.

You're assuming a lot here.

[TUclutch]

They've all signed LOIs. Some may ask out if Mack goes, though.

They can ask out and Xavier can say no. I think Travis Steele is the likely hire on the very slight chance that Mack leaves.

[LA Muskie]

They can ask out and Xavier can say no. I think Travis Steele is the likely hire on the very slight chance that Mack leaves.
We can, but we won't. Nor should we. It would cost us in the end.

I'm not sure what to think about Travis. I tend to think he's more green than either Miller or Mack were at this stage in their careers, but maybe it's just that I'm getting older.

[danaandvictory]

They can ask out and Xavier can say no. I think Travis Steele is the likely hire on the very slight chance that Mack leaves.

Technically Xavier can say no. But it would immediately cause a deluge of bad publicity and hurt all subsequent Xavier coaches in recruiting.

[gladdenguy]

The only thing I worry about is the bunch of clowns running this University. Who knows what they are feeding to Greg Christopher. I generally like him but his hands could be tied by the degenerates above him. Hopefully Mack is just using this to get a raise to where he should be....among the highest paid coaches in the Big East. Hopefully Xavier ponies up and finally pays a head coach like they are a big time program. If Mack leaves this program will have several more mediocre years just like the last 2.

[kyxu]

I think Travis Steele is the likely hire on the very slight chance that Mack leaves.

No.

[danaandvictory]

I'm not sure what to think about Travis. I tend to think he's more green than either Miller or Mack were at this stage in their careers, but maybe it's just that I'm getting older.

Steele is 29 or 30, so he definitely seems too young to take the helm. On the other hand, he started coaching and training guys for AAU when he was a freshman or sophomore at Butler. He's been in the coaching game on the AAU, high school, and college level for 11-12 years despite his age. That's comparable to Sean's experience level when he became the XU head man (after three years as lead assistant, which I think is equivalent to Travis's current experience level). He's an impressive guy and obviously a complete stud recruiter.

Mack, by contrast, didn't get his first college coaching job until age 30.

I would think Steele would get a good hard look if Mack were to leave.

[THRILLHOUSE]

Although, I would rank Wake below Duke, UNC, Syracuse, Pittsburgh and NC State in the ACC. We should no more in the next 48 hours.

And Louisville.

[The_Mack_Pack]

and Virginia. Bennett has that program rolling.

Recruiting for Wake would be difficult and there's almost no chance of ever winning the league.

[TUclutch]

No.

Thanks for your contribution.

[Pete Delkus]

I just dont get the Kelsey stuff

Picture Mack leaving and someone tells you the top candidate is the current coach at Winthrop who has a 34-30 record. Catch is his name is not Pat Kelsey.

This board would IMPLODE with anger but since it is Pat Kelsey everyone just accepts him as a candidate. Once again, I just dont get it


Kelsey has a fantastic reputation among the college basketball world, and brings more than coaching to the program. He also makes a fantastic impression on parents, and was a major part in bringing a top ranked recruiting class at Wake, which features 4 NBA players. (Al -F Aminu, Jeff Teague, James Johnson and Ishmael Smith) He also brought Xavier one of their most promising recruits ever, in Dez Wells.

When a team fires a coach for sucking, like Winthrop did, it's usually because they players aren't performing or the coach is under-recruiting. The latter was true with Winthrop, so just by inserting a new coach with these players, doesn't make you a top-notch contender one season removed from being hired. You can't play uninspired ball for Kelsey, it's just doesn't happen.

Ironically, Kelsey had Wintrop 40 minutes from playing in the NCAA tourney this year.

Sorry, but I think you lack the facts in just throwing up a record and saying "I just don't get it" - as I already figured that out from your post.

[TUclutch]

Steele is 29 or 30, so he definitely seems too young to take the helm. On the other hand, he started coaching and training guys for AAU when he was a freshman or sophomore at Butler. He's been in the coaching game on the AAU, high school, and college level for 11-12 years despite his age. That's comparable to Sean's experience level when he became the XU head man (after three years as lead assistant, which I think is equivalent to Travis's current experience level). He's an impressive guy and obviously a complete stud recruiter.

Mack, by contrast, didn't get his first college coaching job until age 30.

I would think Steele would get a good hard look if Mack were to leave.

This. From everything I know about him and the couple times I've been around him in person, he seems to impress people and is very knowledgable. Clearly a stud recruiter like you said.

[pimpinthebox]

I thought Wake was trying to start fresh and remove themselves from the Skip Prosser coaching tree.

And how'd that work out for them?

[The_Mack_Pack]

And how'd that work out for them?

They should start fresh and remove themselves from the Ron Wellman era..

[LA Muskie]

and Virginia. Bennett has that program rolling.

Recruiting for Wake would be difficult and there's almost no chance of ever winning the league.
Tell that to Virginia. Which until this year had almost no chance of ever winning the league. Then it went and did it. With the addition of Syracuse (and Pitt), I might add.

[Pete Delkus]

Tell that to Virginia. Which until this year had almost no chance of ever winning the league. Then it went and did it. With the addition of Syracuse (and Pitt), I might add.

Exactly. Wake, done right is an awesome job. If Mack considered leaving, as the money was unmatchable...I wouldn't blame him.

Steele could be a good coach one day, but doesn't fit the structure of our "next man up" mantra just yet.

My gut, w/o talking to anyone, is that he stays. Not a bad move for him to get his name out and show he just isn't a Xavier only guy who doesn't need some love from the money-heavy schools.

[Caveat]

Agree with what was said above on Kelsey -- I hope Mack stays, but if he does leave my hope would be that Kelsey gets the first phone call. My only worry at this point is with the AD.

I wasn't thrilled with the Christopher hire (thought he was underwhelming in his hires at BG). It's now on him to either keep Mack or get a replacement lined up. This is where he needs to prove himself and show why he was given this job.

[X-band '01]

Tell that to Virginia. Which until this year had almost no chance of ever winning the league. Then it went and did it. With the addition of Syracuse (and Pitt), I might add.

Not to mention that they're the only ACC team still dancing. You could say in the regular season that they benefited from a softer schedule, but you can't BS your way into both an ACC Tournament title and a Sweet 16.

[LA Muskie]

Agree with what was said above on Kelsey -- I hope Mack stays, but if he does leave my hope would be that Kelsey gets the first phone call. My only worry at this point is with the AD.

I wasn't thrilled with the Christopher hire (thought he was underwhelming in his hires at BG). It's now on him to either keep Mack or get a replacement lined up. This is where he needs to prove himself and show why he was given this job.
Here's the problem with hiring Kelsey: Steele leaves too. Which means our recruits leave as well. Which means Kelsey has to rebuild from the ground up.

[BMoreX]

Here's the problem with hiring Kelsey: Steele leaves too. Which means our recruits leave as well. Which means Kelsey has to rebuild from the ground up.

Yeah, this is where I'm at.

[Caveat]

Here's the problem with hiring Kelsey: Steele leaves too. Which means our recruits leave as well. Which means Kelsey has to rebuild from the ground up.

If Mack leaves, I assume most of the recruits (and possibly J-Mart) are gone anyway. How much of the class is Steele going to save, realistically?

[LA Muskie]

If Mack leaves, I assume most of the recruits (and possibly J-Mart) are gone anyway. How much of the class is Steele going to save, realistically?
I've heard on this board that he was instrumental in most (if not all) of our high profile recruits. If that's the case, I could see him saving much (if not all) of the class. That has happened at other schools, and frankly it's a big reason why assistants are often promoted. Remind me (as I honestly don't recall) -- was Brandon Miller able to save most of Butler's recruiting class?

[Pete Delkus]

You don't hire a coach at Xavier, just to save one recruiting class. If you can hire a type coach which Xavier is use to hiring, and save a class, well than that's a plus. I would love all of those Freshman to come in next year, and play like we envisioned.

However, Xavier doesn't hire a coach based on 1 class alone.

[TUclutch]

You don't hire a coach at Xavier, just to save one recruiting class. If you can hire a type coach which Xavier is use to hiring, and save a class, well than that's a plus. I would love all of those Freshman to come in next year, and play like we envisioned.

However, Xavier doesn't hire a coach based on 1 class alone.

Steele is going to be a very good coach, and I think deserves a long look if Mack leaves. I still think less than 5% chance he leaves

[LA Muskie]

You don't hire a coach at Xavier, just to save one recruiting class. If you can hire a type coach which Xavier is use to hiring, and save a class, well than that's a plus. I would love all of those Freshman to come in next year, and play like we envisioned.

However, Xavier doesn't hire a coach based on 1 class alone.
I agree. But you also don't dump a class if you don't have to.

[xsteve1]

Steele is going to be a very good coach, and I think deserves a long look if Mack leaves. I still think less than 5% chance he leaves

If Mack does leave which I doubt he does, Steele has to be considered heavily regardless of the recruiting class.

[LA Muskie]

If Mack does leave which I doubt he does, Steele has to be considered heavily regardless of the recruiting class.
I like Steele and Kelsey, but when the job eventually opens up (and someday it will happen), I'd like to see us look outside the family as well. Sometimes new blood can be a good thing. I'm not saying we have to go in a different direction, I'm just saying we should at least look.

That's mostly just for those on this board, as I have no doubt our administration would do that anyway. And since none of us has any say, it's mostly meaningless except to say that there are lots of qualified candidates out there -- and just because we may not know their names doesn't mean they wouldn't be great fits.

Neither Matta nor Miller had any connection to Xavier before they were hired (Miller as Matta's lead assistant).

[paulxu]

I should start a thread in the X lounge.

The title would be: Chris Mack is gone to....

And just let all the non-supporting members wonder where he has gone.

Get Muskie a little support. We get way more than we pay for on this board.

[Pete Delkus]

I should start a thread in the X lounge.

The title would be: Chris Mack is gone to....

And just let all the non-supporting members wonder where he has gone.

Get Muskie a little support. We get way more than we pay for on this board.

1 word which is faster: Twitter

[XU2011]

We can, but we won't. Nor should we. It would cost us in the end.

I'm not sure what to think about Travis. I tend to think he's more green than either Miller or Mack were at this stage in their careers, but maybe it's just that I'm getting older.

Miller had 12 years of assistant coaching experience between Xavier, NC State, Pitt and Miami OH, a year as a GA at Wisconsin and played ball at Pitt.

Mack had 8 years of assistant coaching experience between Xavier and Wake plus 2 years as DBO at Xavier and played ball at Xavier.

Steele has 5 years of assistant coaching experience all at Xavier, 1 years as DBO at Xavier and 2 as video coordinator at Indiana and didn't play college ball.

So he's much greener than both Mack and Miller.

[Kahns Krazy]

I should start a thread in the X lounge.

The title would be: Chris Mack is gone to....

And just let all the non-supporting members wonder where he has gone.

Get Muskie a little support. We get way more than we pay for on this board.

I don't think non-members see anything (including thread titles) in the member section. Otherwise they all would have joined when we had that nude Kate Upton thread.

[paulxu]

I don't think non-members see anything (including thread titles) in the member section. Otherwise they all would have joined when we had that nude Kate Upton thread.

Hah! Wait...I missed that thread. Need to practice the "advanced" search function right now.

[xu82]

I don't think non-members see anything (including thread titles) in the member section. Otherwise they all would have joined when we had that nude Kate Upton thread.

That must explain why there wern't more views on that thread! Membership is cheap...

[xu82]

Speaking of cheap - PAY OUR COACH COMPETITIVELY!

[muethibp]

I keep seeing these posts about Mack being underpaid and then I also see these posts saying that even if offered a job in the premier conference in the country that he's very unlikely to go. And so, I wonder, if he's paid an amount where he's willing to turn down such jobs, then isn't he paid appropriately (if the standard is paying someone as much as necessary to retain his/her services if those services are desired)? Why pay someone more than is necessary just because other schools do?

As for Mack/Wake, if he leaves, he leaves. We should look outside the Matta/Miller/Mack tree if he does.

[xu82]

I do appreciate the irony with all the "is Mack on the hot seat" stuff, along with the "pay the man" stuff. Also, We should be fair and not be looking for a home town discount.

[drudy23]

I doubt that.

He leaves and take half the recruiting class, this is a disaster, and would likely set us back MORE than 2 years.

[GIMMFD]

What do we consider a good salary? Mack gets rougly $484,000 a year, which is 24th in the country, do we say $1million range?

[danaandvictory]

I do appreciate the irony with all the "is Mack on the hot seat" stuff, along with the "pay the man" stuff. Also, We should be fair and not be looking for a home town discount.

I don't think it's ironic at all. Xavier is going to have to pay its coach competitively, whether it's Mack or his replacement. The idea that Xavier needs to increase the compensation package for head coach and assistants is a separate issue from Mack's performance level.

[Masterofreality]

Well, instead of just yapping about it, people need to step up, contribute to the All for One campaign and show 'em da money.

We've talked about this for years.

[PMI]

What do we consider a good salary? Mack gets rougly $484,000 a year, which is 24th in the country, do we say $1million range?

Are you sure it's that low? I thought the number was more in the $700-$800k range.


I don't think it's ironic at all. Xavier is going to have to pay its coach competitively, whether it's Mack or his replacement. The idea that Xavier needs to increase the compensation package for head coach and assistants is a separate issue from Mack's performance level.

Exactly. And for one, I haven't heard anyone other than some disgruntled fans consider Mack actually on the "hot seat." At least not anyone who matters. Perhaps many here have forgotten about Prosser, who some message board fans also considered on the "hot seat" before he took that very Wake Forest job. How hot either of their seats really are/were probably varies greatly depending on who you ask.

[xu82]

I don't think it's ironic at all. Xavier is going to have to pay its coach competitively, whether it's Mack or his replacement. The idea that Xavier needs to increase the compensation package for head coach and assistants is a separate issue from Mack's performance level.

I definitely see where you're coming from, but my point is it's funny to have one large group saying he's not good enough and at the same time another saying he needs a big raise. Regardless, we need our coach to be paid at an elite level if we want an elite coach. I will be the first to say I am NOT an expert in NCAA hoops coaching compensation packages. I know we can't compete with OSU or Arizona, but we need to compete off the court so we can compete on the court.

[nasdadjr]

Xavier has money just accumulating in a vault somewhere. You people don't need to pony up anything. Xavier has money sitting in a vault that mr. Graham and the nuns probably jump in before they start their mornings like scrooge mc duck lol.

If Mack leaves this year(don't think it will happen but if it does) there is a name out there that is a big time name who is a hell of a coach and recruits very well. Kelvin Sampson has his suspension lifted this gear and would fit nicely if the job comes open. Yes he wouldn't stay ten or fifteen years but noone else has so who cares. He would be looking to restart his career and xavier is a high level program that doesn't come with a lot of media scrutiny so he can rebuild his career and this program at the same time. Thoughts!!!

[The_Mack_Pack]

Kelvin Sampson? Do you want Xavier to be on probation?

[xu82]

Are you sure it's that low? I thought the number was more in the $700-$800k range.



Exactly. And for one, I haven't heard anyone other than some disgruntled fans consider Mack actually on the "hot seat." At least not anyone who matters. Perhaps many here have forgotten about Prosser, who some message board fans also considered on the "hot seat" before he took that very Wake Forest job. How hot either of their seats really are/were probably varies greatly depending on who you ask.

I agree, I suppose I am talking about the relatively few extreme "complainers". I realize the mainstream feels as I do that Mack has done a very good job despite the challenges he's faced recently. But you read from people who question his ability to those who want to give a big raise. I am in the give the raise and pay him fairly camp - though I admit my feelings that he's underpaid is based on minimal information.

[xu82]

I have spent most of the last 4 days with my father in ICU and am operating on minimal sleep. I will shut up until I feel more confident I can be coherent and make sense. (Not that that's ever a sure thing.)

[nasdadjr]

My understanding is his five year suspension from talking to recruits is over. If I'm wrong then I retract that but if not then it is very intruiging

[klark]

Kelvin Sampson? Do you want Xavier to be on probation?

I would also love to hear the explanation of why Xavier would want a coach coming of a suspension. I would think we would only want to deal with one isue at a time if Mack leaves, like throwing gasoline on a fire. The curent recruits would bolt and no one else would want to come here.

[Juice]

My understanding is his five year suspension from talking to recruits is over. If I'm wrong then I retract that but if not then it is very intruiging

He's going to take the Houston job anyways.

[waggy]

It's like hanging out a sign that says please neg rep me. So I did.

[nasdadjr]

Of course this is all based on mack leaving which I don't think happens.

Kelvin Sampson is a huge name that is known in many households across america. If a representative walks into a recruits house and that person says hello son I'm pat Kelley from xavier or they say hello son I'm kelvin Samson from xavier university who do you think the kid will consider more. ( I only used Kelley as an example so don't blow up over it). On top of that Samson is a very good defensive coach which is something xavier has lacked for a while. He is a guy that has been there done that and knows his way around the ring. He is also a guy who would bring credibility to a conference who just lost buzz Williams and who doesn't have a real marquee coach. Yes he did make the one mistake but like I said he will walk the straight path cause he would use xavier to get to a bigger job just as xavier would use him as a bridge to get back to where they are accustomed to being. Outside of you bringing up the violation and given his recruit contact is restored show me the downside

[KabeX]

Well if Mack does leave, I say just head up 75 and get the next Miller. I know he just signed an extension but we all know how iron clad contracts are. 0k, I'm just having some fun here but can you imagine the fallout? UD Pride would crash. Does and cats would start living together. Mass hysteria would ensue.

[nasdadjr]

Sorry typing on phone and it auto corrects. Meant pat kelsey not Kelley.

[wkrq59]

I kind of look at it on the flipside. If nobody is putting your coach on their "potential targets" list, then your coach isn't doing a good job. Coaching is a business, being wanted proves that others see you are doing something right.

Thor and Muskie make sense and really, this thread is kind of silly. Consider the last few coaches at Wake Forest. Bob Staak got fired after two years because he offended the blue noses among the alumni who objected to his having a beer at a neighborhood bar on the way home. Skip Prosser died before a movement among the boosters could see to his departure. Dino was shown the door even though he won. Bedzellik (sp) was shown the door because he didn't win.
Now let's talk Mack. He took Xavier into the Big East, finished 3rd, got to the NCAA, and has coming into the school next fall a recruiting class that has been ranken anywhere from sixth, to 10th to 18th in the nation by ESPN and other rating entities. Despite his critics, and they seem to be dwindling every day, he has shown plenty of loyalty to the school. He was offered and turned down Tennessee and other offers. Why the hell would he even listen except as a courtesy. Wake Forest is no Arizona, no Ohio State. Hell, it's not even a Providence.

[wkrq59]

I have spent most of the last 4 days with my father in ICU and am operating on minimal sleep. I will shut up until I feel more confident I can be coherent and make sense. (Not that that's ever a sure thing.)

82, if I missed your prayer request for your dad, I am sorry and apologize. I will send angel Mark to be at his bedside. God bless your dad and help him and you and yours through this very difficult time q

[OTRMUSKIE]

82, if I missed your prayer request for your dad, I am sorry and apologize. I will send angel Mark to be at his bedside. God bless your dad and help him and you and yours through this very difficult time q

Ditto!

[Juice]

Of course this is all based on mack leaving which I don't think happens.

Kelvin Sampson is a huge name that is known in many households across america. If a representative walks into a recruits house and that person says hello son I'm pat Kelley from xavier or they say hello son I'm kelvin Samson from xavier university who do you think the kid will consider more. ( I only used Kelley as an example so don't blow up over it). On top of that Samson is a very good defensive coach which is something xavier has lacked for a while. He is a guy that has been there done that and knows his way around the ring. He is also a guy who would bring credibility to a conference who just lost buzz Williams and who doesn't have a real marquee coach. Yes he did make the one mistake but like I said he will walk the straight path cause he would use xavier to get to a bigger job just as xavier would use him as a bridge to get back to where they are accustomed to being. Outside of you bringing up the violation and given his recruit contact is restored show me the downside

Uhhhhh, it wasn't one mistake. He got canned/in trouble with the NCAA because he continued to do the same bullshit at IU that he was doing at Oklahoma and told to stop doing.


In addition to the Gordon incident, Sampson has been in the middle of a number of other controversies. Under Sampson's watch, Oklahoma was placed under a three-year investigation by the NCAA for recruiting violations. At the end of the their investigation, the NCAA issued a report citing more than 550 impermissible calls made by Sampson and his staff to 17 different recruits. The NCAA barred Sampson from recruiting off campus and making phone calls for one year, ending May 24, 2007.[4]
Prior to the findings by the NCAA, Kelvin Sampson was the President of the NABC, an organization that supports basketball coaches across the country. During his tenure the Ethics Committee of the NABC was formed to address the many problems with violations that college basketball faced going into the 2003 season. That very same Ethics Committee would later reprimand Kelvin Sampson as a result of the NCAA findings, placing him on probation for three years during which he would not be eligible to serve in any official capacity for the NABC, be considered for Coach of the Year honors or receive Final Four ticket privileges.[5]
As coach at Indiana in October 2007, Sampson again came under scrutiny for making impermissible phone calls. Despite being restricted from making any outbound recruiting phone calls, Sampson participated in approximately 10 conference calls with recruits that violate the terms of the sanctions levied against him by the NCAA. IU assistant Rob Senderoff (who has since announced his resignation) also made some 35 impermissible phone calls to recruits from his home. On February 8, 2008, the NCAA informed Indiana that Sampson had committed five "major" rules violations. The NCAA alleged that Sampson knowingly violated telephone recruiting restrictions imposed on him. More seriously, the NCAA also alleged that Sampson lied to IU and NCAA officials regarding his involvement in the impermissible calls.[6]
Indiana launched an internal investigation that school president Michael McRobbie said would take seven days. On February 14, 2008, ESPN reported that Sampson's status as coach of the Hoosiers would be decided on a "game-by-game basis.".[7] Fox Sports reported that Sampson was to be fired on February 22, 2008,[8] but later reports indicated that Sampson would be suspended without pay. Eventually it was announced that Sampson would resign, reaching a $750,000 settlement with Indiana. In return, Sampson agreed not to sue Indiana for wrongful termination. Assistant Dan Dakich was named as interim head coach for the rest of the season.[9]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kelvin_Sampson#Recruiting_controversy

[MHettel]

thor and muskie make sense and really, this thread is kind of silly. Consider the last few coaches at wake forest. Bob staak got fired after two years because he offended the blue noses among the alumni who objected to his having a beer at a neighborhood bar on the way home. Skip prosser died before a movement among the boosters could see to his departure. Dino was shown the door even though he won. Bedzellik (sp) was shown the door because he didn't win.
Now let's talk mack. He took xavier into the big east, finished 3rd, got to the ncaa, and has coming into the school next fall a recruiting class that has been ranken anywhere from sixth, to 10th to 18th in the nation by espn and other rating entities. Despite his critics, and they seem to be dwindling every day, he has shown plenty of loyalty to the school. He was offered and turned down tennessee and other offers. Why the hell would he even listen except as a courtesy. Wake forest is no arizona, no ohio state. Hell, it's not even a providence.


dave odom?

[dubbledxu]

I'd rather hire a Ben Howland than Kelvin Sampson any day

[bleedXblue]

Well, instead of just yapping about it, people need to step up, contribute to the All for One campaign and show 'em da money.

We've talked about this for years.

Xavier already is one of the top 20 revenue generating programs in the country. They already have have the cash. Lets not act like they need more to pay a coach. They were going to offer Miller somewhere near 1.5 MM. It's there, pay the guy what he's worth and bump up his buy out.

[bleedXblue]

Xavier has money just accumulating in a vault somewhere. You people don't need to pony up anything. Xavier has money sitting in a vault that mr. Graham and the nuns probably jump in before they start their mornings like scrooge mc duck lol.

If Mack leaves this year(don't think it will happen but if it does) there is a name out there that is a big time name who is a hell of a coach and recruits very well. Kelvin Sampson has his suspension lifted this gear and would fit nicely if the job comes open. Yes he wouldn't stay ten or fifteen years but noone else has so who cares. He would be looking to restart his career and xavier is a high level program that doesn't come with a lot of media scrutiny so he can rebuild his career and this program at the same time. Thoughts!!!

No f'in way

[Masterofreality]

Xavier already is one of the top 20 revenue generating programs in the country. They already have have the cash. Lets not act like they need more to pay a coach. They were going to offer Miller somewhere near 1.5 MM. It's there, pay the guy what he's worth and bump up his buy out.

"Revenue Generating" and Athletic Department profit are two different things. Men's basketball basically supports the entire Athletic Department budget, and Xavier cannot dip into the General Fund to do so. The new TV deal helps, but remember that A) X had to pay a hefty buyout to the Atlantic 10, B) X lost all of it's past NCAA Tourney credits for both the men & women.. C) There was no NCAA Tourney last year so lower advance ticket sales this year. There was a cash flow issue this year.

Things get back to a positive this upcoming year, but it was no accident that all of a sudden X decided to sell SRO tickets to games. Sorry, but this school is not swimming in caish.

[GoMuskies]

Well, instead of just yapping about it, people need to step up, contribute to the All for One campaign and show 'em da money.

We've talked about this for years.

I get the realities of big-time college athletics...but there's no way in hell I can justify donating money so that a guy getting paid close to a million bucks a year can stop being "underpaid".

[bleedXblue]

"Revenue Generating" and Athletic Department profit are two different things. Men's basketball basically supports the entire Athletic Department budget, and Xavier cannot dip into the General Fund to do so. The new TV deal helps, but remember that A) X had to pay a hefty buyout to the Atlantic 10, B) X lost all of it's past NCAA Tourney credits for both the men & women.. C) There was no NCAA Tourney last year so lower advance ticket sales this year. There was a cash flow issue this year.

Things get back to a positive this upcoming year, but it was no accident that all of a sudden X decided to sell SRO tickets to games. Sorry, but this school is not swimming in caish.

This is no different a situation at X than its been over the last 30 years. Basketball has always carried the budget. I dont believe for one second that X had "cash flow" issues this year. Are you just making this stuff up? The ticket sales alone generate close to 4-5 MM a year in revenue. The Forbes list below shows 13 MM in revenue and 7 million in profit. I'm not sure if they are annualized numbers or not, but I would assume so. I dont think X is swimming in cash either, but they clearly should have enough to go around to pay their head coach whats he's worth on the open market. Doubling his salary would basically mean about a 500K increase.

http://www.forbes.com/pictures/emdm45efll/college-basketballs-most-valuable-teams-2/

[XfansinKy]

I'm with the majority of X fans hoping there is no coaching change. If for some reason a new head coach and staff were needed and somehow able to keep the returning players and just say a couple of the incoming freshman, would things look so bad? I really don't know. Just curious.

[boozehound]

I keep seeing these posts about Mack being underpaid and then I also see these posts saying that even if offered a job in the premier conference in the country that he's very unlikely to go. And so, I wonder, if he's paid an amount where he's willing to turn down such jobs, then isn't he paid appropriately (if the standard is paying someone as much as necessary to retain his/her services if those services are desired)? Why pay someone more than is necessary just because other schools do?

As for Mack/Wake, if he leaves, he leaves. We should look outside the Matta/Miller/Mack tree if he does.

Because that's how organizations that want to attract and retain top talent operate. Just because he if from Cincinnati and likes the area doesn't mean we should lowball him. He should be payed similarly to coaches of comparable value. Doing otherwise is penny smart but pound foolish.

I used to work for a company like that. Other companies kept offering me significantly more money (50%+). I stuck around for a while because I was getting promoted quickly and was gaining good experience, but was always being paid at the bottom of the range for my position. I don't work for that company anymore. When I left they offered to match my salary but I didn't care, because I knew that their compensation philosophy was to pay as little as possible and I didn't want to have to quit everytime I wanted a big raise.

[casualfan]

because that's how organizations that want to attract and retain top talent operate. Just because he if from cincinnati and likes the area doesn't mean we should lowball him. He should be payed similarly to coaches of comparable value. Doing otherwise is penny smart but pound foolish.

I used to work for a company like that. Other companies kept offering me significantly more money (50%+). I stuck around for a while because i was getting promoted quickly and was gaining good experience, but was always being paid at the bottom of the range for my position. I don't work for that company anymore. when i left the offered to match my salary but i didn't care, because i knew that their compensation philosophy was to pay as little as possible and i didn't want to have to quit everytime i wanted a big raise.


this

[XfansinKy]

Because that's how organizations that want to attract and retain top talent operate. Just because he if from Cincinnati and likes the area doesn't mean we should lowball him. He should be payed similarly to coaches of comparable value. Doing otherwise is penny smart but pound foolish.

I used to work for a company like that. Other companies kept offering me significantly more money (50%+). I stuck around for a while because I was getting promoted quickly and was gaining good experience, but was always being paid at the bottom of the range for my position. I don't work for that company anymore. When I left they offered to match my salary but I didn't care, because I knew that their compensation philosophy was to pay as little as possible and I didn't want to have to quit everytime I wanted a big raise.
What he said

[Masterofreality]

This is no different a situation at X than its been over the last 30 years. Basketball has always carried the budget. I dont believe for one second that X had "cash flow" issues this year. Are you just making this stuff up? The ticket sales alone generate close to 4-5 MM a year in revenue. The Forbes list below shows 13 MM in revenue and 7 million in profit. I'm not sure if they are annualized numbers or not, but I would assume so. I dont think X is swimming in cash either, but they clearly should have enough to go around to pay their head coach whats he's worth on the open market. Doubling his salary would basically mean about a 500K increase.

http://www.forbes.com/pictures/emdm45efll/college-basketballs-most-valuable-teams-2/

Well, ask LA Muskie and XU Dash. Believe what you want and just keep quoting Forbes all you want.

All I know is that they need more money....and that Chris Mack deserves to get paid at least $1.5 million/year. Hell, Masiello from Manhattan just got a $1.25 million/ year deal from fricking South Florida.

[Xu Red Dogg]

Here is the overlying fact as I see it.

In the past, the attractiveness of the Xavier job has been: "This is a place where I can go, win, and move up." See: Gillen, Prosser, Miller, Matta... Mack??

In the future, the attractiveness of the Xavier job needs to be: "This is a school in a top tier conference with outstanding resources that pays fair market value for their coaches."

We can no longer proceed down the "bargain rate" route and expect to build a consistent, Top 25 caliber program. When you see programs like Houston, South Florida and even Wake are paying sometimes DOUBLE what Xavier pays our coach... it is ludicrous. For us to be the program everyone here wants to be, this has to change.

[Masterofreality]

I get the realities of big-time college athletics...but there's no way in hell I can justify donating money so that a guy getting paid close to a million bucks a year can stop being "underpaid".

Why? When a "one hit wonder" like Masiello from Manhattan just got a 5 year $1.25 million/year deal from South Florida?

Wake the hell up people. This is the big time. We wanted to play in the high rent neighborhood, now we gotta live in it.

[Masterofreality]

here is the overlying fact as i see it.

In the past, the attractiveness of the xavier job has been: "this is a place where i can go, win, and move up." see: Gillen, prosser, miller, matta... Mack??

In the future, the attractiveness of the xavier job needs to be: "this is a school in a top tier conference with outstanding resources that pays fair market value for their coaches."

we can no longer proceed down the "bargain rate" route and expect to build a consistent, top 25 caliber program. When you see programs like houston, south florida and even wake are paying sometimes double what xavier pays our coach... It is ludicrous. For us to be the program everyone here wants to be, this has to change.

this

[GoMuskies]

Why?

Because despite the amount of time I spend on this site, actually donating my money to Chris Mack would show a disturbing twisting of priorities IMO.

[paulxu]

There are a lot of sides to the story.
If another school offers your coach more, that doesn't necessarily mean you were under paying/valuing him. It just might be a market reality for that school to pay more to attract your guy.
Conversely there is much to be said for paying at least market rate so your coach doesn't feel undervalued and start looking.
The intangibles (family, city, school) can never be appropriately valued, but they are all there.
We don't know what is going on (at least I don't) within the administration. Perhaps Mack's salary has already been bumped based on his credible performance over his first few years.

Last, I'm pretty sure Saban didn't feel unappreciated when Texas came calling and Alabama bumped his salary another million to keep him.
Might be the same situation, albeit on a much larger scale.
We're not Alabama, so I'd be in the camp to make sure his salary is market sensitive/competitive at least.

[casualfan]

Well, ask LA Muskie and XU Dash. Believe what you want and just keep quoting Forbes all you want.

All I know is that they need more money....and that Chris Mack deserves to get paid at least $1.5 million/year. Hell, Masiello from Manhattan just got a $1.25 million/ year deal from fricking South Florida.

How they possibly need more money to pay Chris when we just upped the $$ intake from our TV deal significantly. That alone is enough to double his salary and still have quite a bit left over.

Athletic Departments always "need more money" so I don't doubt that is the agenda being pushed by people in the department, but the idea that they can't find money to pay Chris is laughable IMHO.

[PMI]

Does anyone actually know what Mack is currently making? Based on this and other threads here and on Scout, I've pretty much seen everything from $484k to north of $1.5 mil. I'd be interested to know what his ballpark salary is, both before and after incentives and other incomes. I think Xavier knows as well as anyone that if you want to keep a good coach, you need to pay them. I understand there are some jobs that are just too attractive/lucrative to pass up (Ohio State and Arizona as we've learned fit that category) but is Wake Forest really one of those jobs? It seems to me that if most people are correct about where Xavier stands on the spectrum of paying its coaching staff, we're doing something wrong. Mack has been to the tournament 4 out of 5 years with two Sweet 16s, and just wrapped up a third place finish in the Big East with a top 15 recruiting class coming in. If he really is one of the two or three lowest paid coaches in the conference, we are getting one of the best bargains in college basketball, and it would only be a matter of time before we're faced with the reality of stepping up in a big way, or starting all over... again.

[bleedXblue]

Well, ask LA Muskie and XU Dash. Believe what you want and just keep quoting Forbes all you want.

All I know is that they need more money....and that Chris Mack deserves to get paid at least $1.5 million/year. Hell, Masiello from Manhattan just got a $1.25 million/ year deal from fricking South Florida.

Forbes info is complied from public information submitted to the Dept of Education ??

[bleedXblue]

How they possibly need more money to pay Chris when we just upped the $$ intake from our TV deal significantly. That alone is enough to double his salary and still have quite a bit left over.

Athletic Departments always "need more money" so I don't doubt that is the agenda being pushed by people in the department, but the idea that they can't find money to pay Chris is laughable IMHO.

Exactly.

[muethibp]

Why? When a "one hit wonder" like Masiello from Manhattan just got a 5 year $1.25 million/year deal from South Florida?

Wake the hell up people. This is the big time. We wanted to play in the high rent neighborhood, now we gotta live in it.

There's no sense in playing a game you can't win and Xavier - a small, private school, with a modest television deal - is never, ever, ever going to be able to pay its coach sufficient to ward off other offers from bigger, public schools (whose boards have been deluded into paying coaches insane amounts of money) and/or schools with lots of football television money sloshing around. A Xavier coach has to be willing to accept less for the benefits that the program provides or the coach is free to go somewhere else. It's pretty simple. I certainly know that in light of all the way, way, way better causes - even many at the University to say nothing of the world - I have no interest in telling people they need to donate to X to let Chris Mack get paid even more than he is now.

[bleedXblue]

Well, ask LA Muskie and XU Dash. Believe what you want and just keep quoting Forbes all you want.

All I know is that they need more money....and that Chris Mack deserves to get paid at least $1.5 million/year. Hell, Masiello from Manhattan just got a $1.25 million/ year deal from fricking South Florida.

I would guess that a large majority of posters here either have season tickets, attend some games, buy Xavier gear (in which they receive rolyalties), donate to the school etc etc. What more do you want? I'm giving them all that I can. My guess also is that a good percentage of posters have kids in parochial/private schools. I have two in high school right now.

The facts are the facts. X is doing just fine financially with their bball program. I'm sure they will take your cash if you're in a position to be able to do so. But asking for more from those that are already pretty heavily invested is not fair.

[casualfan]

There's no sense in playing a game you can't win and Xavier - a small, private school, with a modest television deal - is never, ever, ever going to be able to pay its coach sufficient to ward off other offers from bigger, public schools (whose boards have been deluded into paying coaches insane amounts of money) and/or schools with lots of football television money sloshing around. A Xavier coach has to be willing to accept less for the benefits that the program provides or the coach is free to go somewhere else. It's pretty simple. I certainly know that in light of all the way, way, way better causes - even many at the University to say nothing of the world - I have no interest in telling people they need to donate to X to let Chris Mack get paid even more than he is now.

Our TV deal is a lot of things, but modest is not one of them.

[muethibp]

Our TV deal is a lot of things, but modest is not one of them.

Compared to the schools against whom we are competing (ACC, Big 10...), yes it most definitely is. And did you see the ratings for the Big East this season and for the tournament? Abysmal. FS1 is a wasteland. (More people watched the Liverpool soccer game the next morning on NBCSN than watched the Big East tournament final, with one of the most popular players in NCAA basketball playing in the game.)

[xavierj]

Chris is mking a heck of a lot more than $500k. He is doing just fine. His base salary might not be high but total comp is much higher. The guy just built in the last two years a home north of 1.2 mil. Seems like he is just fine.

[casualfan]

Compared to the schools against whom we are competing (ACC, Big 10...), yes it most definitely is. And did you see the ratings for the Big East this season and for the tournament? Abysmal. FS1 is a wasteland. (More people watched the Liverpool soccer game the next morning on NBCSN than watched the Big East tournament final, with one of the most popular players in NCAA basketball playing in the game.)

Um, you realize schools in the BIG and ACC have to support football teams with those TV contracts right? Apples and Oranges.

4-plus mil per schools is extremely lucrative for a basketball only conference.

If we had a football program 4 mil would be mediocre. Last I checked we don't have a football program to support with that money.

[throwbackmuskie]

Compared to the schools against whom we are competing (ACC, Big 10...), yes it most definitely is. And did you see the ratings for the Big East this season and for the tournament? Abysmal. FS1 is a wasteland. (More people watched the Liverpool soccer game the next morning on NBCSN than watched the Big East tournament final, with one of the most popular players in NCAA basketball playing in the game.)

4.1M per year per shcool, just for basketball, that is a great deal. The ACC with football only gets 2M per year per school.

[nuts4xu]

Chris is mking a heck of a lot more than $500k. He is doing just fine. His base salary might not be high but total comp is much higher. The guy just built in the last two years a home north of 1.2 mil. Seems like he is just fine.

The Nike contract can't be chump change either. We are a "Nike Elite" school, and we have the best deal the school has ever had from an apparel company.

[bleedXblue]

Chris is mking a heck of a lot more than $500k. He is doing just fine. His base salary might not be high but total comp is much higher. The guy just built in the last two years a home north of 1.2 mil. Seems like he is just fine.

And in his profession, you just never know. You may be doing well today, and out of a job tomorrow or next year.

You get it($$$) while you can. To think he's comfortable and content is a little foolish IMHO.

When you're coaching against guys like Williams, Wright and Thompson and you know they're making 2-3 times more than you and your program is very profitable......thats not a warm and fuzzy that I would take away from things.

Who knows, maybe Christopher told Mack that after this year, they would look at a new deal. I hope thats the case and I hope he feels wanted and valued here.

[LA Muskie]

Chris is mking a heck of a lot more than $500k. He is doing just fine. His base salary might not be high but total comp is much higher. The guy just built in the last two years a home north of 1.2 mil. Seems like he is just fine.

That information is about as meaningless as you can get. You need about $250k in annual income to qualify for bank financing of a $1mm mortgage (I'm assuming there is a down payment on the house).

[muethibp]

4.1M per year per shcool, just for basketball, that is a great deal. The ACC with football only gets 2M per year per school.

It's hilarious that you think the ACC television deal, with football, is just $2MM per year per school.
Try $17MM.
http://sports.yahoo.com/news/ncaaf--acc-tv-deal-further-exposes-big-east-leadership-woes.html

And that example shows why it's foolhardy to think that Xavier will ever be able to pay on the same scale as many other schools. There is just too much money sloshing around other athletic departments.

[Caveat]

Compared to the schools against whom we are competing (ACC, Big 10...), yes it most definitely is. And did you see the ratings for the Big East this season and for the tournament? Abysmal. FS1 is a wasteland. (More people watched the Liverpool soccer game the next morning on NBCSN than watched the Big East tournament final, with one of the most popular players in NCAA basketball playing in the game.)

In fairness, the EPL isn't exactly a test pattern.

Also, go Blues.

[X-man]

According to public document IRS-990 for Xavier University, Chris Mack received a base compensation amount of about $750K in 2011 (the most recent year publically available), and additional bonus and other compensation amounts bringing the total from Xavier to about $860K. This would not include his other deals, such as radio, summer camps (I think), and other stuff. So it's reasonable to assume that he was making north of $1M back in 2011. The 2012 data will be out this summer.

[Caveat]

It's hilarious that you think the ACC television deal, with football, is just $2MM per year per school.
Try $17MM.
http://sports.yahoo.com/news/ncaaf--acc-tv-deal-further-exposes-big-east-leadership-woes.html

And that example shows why it's foolhardy to think that Xavier will ever be able to pay on the same scale as many other schools. There is just too much money sloshing around other athletic departments.

Those schools also have to pay for football, costs associated with football, and the 170 additional scholarships (85 for football, 85 for Title IX compliance) that come with running a football program. And that's not even factoring the "Keeping up with the Joneses" aspect of building new football facilities that goes along with high-level college football. Even with huge money TV deals, most football-playing schools run in the red and require school subsidies just to stay afloat.

So yeah -- they're making tons of money. But they're also mostly just breaking even

[Masterofreality]

I would guess that a large majority of posters here either have season tickets, attend some games, buy Xavier gear (in which they receive rolyalties), donate to the school etc etc. What more do you want? I'm giving them all that I can. My guess also is that a good percentage of posters have kids in parochial/private schools. I have two in high school right now.

The facts are the facts. X is doing just fine financially with their bball program. I'm sure they will take your cash if you're in a position to be able to do so. But asking for more from those that are already pretty heavily invested is not fair.

Ok, Bleed. You know it all by reading Forbes magazine. Congrats on your research. Glad that you have convinced yourself that X is "doing just fine financially with their basketball program". All we have to do, then is cut out all other sports other than Women's basketball to comply with Title 9.

Some of us know otherwise, but you just keep reading and quoting Forbes. By the way, I suppose that no one should ever contribute anything to your university for anything because A) US News or some mag says that the school is doing great, B) By charging a $45,000/year sticker price Xavier should be able to build that new science, business or dorm building all on their own, and C) Who cares whether the school excels or not?

Screw 'em! Let 'em pay for that stuff with "royalties". Yeah, that's it!

[GIMMFD]

According to public document IRS-990 for Xavier University, Chris Mack received a base compensation amount of about $750K in 2011 (the most recent year publically available), and additional bonus and other compensation amounts bringing the total from Xavier to about $860K. This would not include his other deals, such as radio, summer camps (I think), and other stuff. So it's reasonable to assume that he was making north of $1M back in 2011. The 2012 data will be out this summer.

That seems like a pretty nice salary, so in comparison, what's it like for other coaches in the Big East?

[boozehound]

I think we all agree that the basketball program is making plenty of money. I think we also all realize that Xavier is spending a lot of money right now on capital improvements around campus. Regardless of whether or not we as fans and alumni take up a collection to pay Chris Mack, they should have enough money to pay him. If they have already spent that money on other things around campus that is their problem, and I would argue that they should have earmarked money to pay the head coach from their profitable basketball program.

I would argue that the basketball program is too important to Xavier for them to put it at risk by losing their coach. This is independant of anything else that they are spending money on.

[XUFan09]

Forbes info is complied from public information submitted to the Dept of Education ??

Private institutions don't have to share all their information. This isn't a state school.

Sent from my DROID RAZR HD using Tapatalk

[Masterofreality]

That seems like a pretty nice salary, so in comparison, what's it like for other coaches in the Big East?

Here are the coaching base salaries as reported by the schools for the latest tax return information available (2011).

1. Jay Wright - Villanova - $2,290,346
2. John Thompson III - Georgetown - $2,211,250
3. Oliver Purnell - DePaul - $2,192,385
4. Buzz Williams - Marquette - $1,105,203 in base and $631,250 paid to "Team Buzz Williams L.P." or $1,736,453
5. Steve Lavin - St. John's - $1,413,952
6. Greg McDermott - Creighton - $1,369,949
7. Keno Davis - Providence - $889,930 (obviously Ed Cooley is the coach now but I would suspect it'll be something similar to this)
8. Brad Stevens - Butler - $853,393 (Obviously Brandon Miller is making much less. I would guess $300k).
9. Chris Mack- Xavier- $750,000
10. Kevin Willard - Seton Hall - $722,509

What I also found that was interesting is that DePaul was also still paying its former coach (and current DOBO for Marquette) Jerry Wainwright around $1.2 million in compensation the same year they paid Oliver Purnell his salary.

Xavier is NOT competitive based upon actual accomplishment. Period.

[XUmeat]

Jeff Goodman just did a chat this morning... first question was about Mack. Goodman's response starts with:

"No one has reached out to Mack from Wake Forest -- yet. They are likely going to make a run for Shaka."

He goes on from there, but key is all of this is way too early. WF hasn't event contacted him. Chill out for a minute.

[SkyWalker]

Here are the coaching base salaries as reported by the schools for the latest tax return information available (2011).

1. Jay Wright - Villanova - $2,290,346
2. John Thompson III - Georgetown - $2,211,250
3. Oliver Purnell - DePaul - $2,192,385
4. Buzz Williams - Marquette - $1,105,203 in base and $631,250 paid to "Team Buzz Williams L.P." or $1,736,453
5. Steve Lavin - St. John's - $1,413,952
6. Greg McDermott - Creighton - $1,369,949
7. Keno Davis - Providence - $889,930 (obviously Ed Cooley is the coach now but I would suspect it'll be something similar to this)
8. Brad Stevens - Butler - $853,393 (Obviously Brandon Miller is making much less. I would guess $300k).
9. Chris Mack- Xavier- $750,000
10. Kevin Willard - Seton Hall - $722,509

What I also found that was interesting is that DePaul was also still paying its former coach (and current DOBO for Marquette) Jerry Wainwright around $1.2 million in compensation the same year they paid Oliver Purnell his salary.

Xavier is NOT competitive based upon actual accomplishment. Period.


Wow, Oliver Purnell looks like a steal at that price.

[bleedXblue]

Private institutions don't have to share all their information. This isn't a state school.

Sent from my DROID RAZR HD using Tapatalk

Go back and look at the article from Forbes.

It states they get their info from the DOE.

Just b/c you're a private institution, doesn't mean you're not required to share certain information with Uncle Sam.

Im not going to pretend I know what the DOE requires....but reporting revenue (how you derived it) and profit from that revenue seems realistic.

[XUFan09]

Go back and look at the article from Forbes.

It states they get their info from the DOE.

Just b/c you're a private institution, doesn't mean you're not required to share certain information with Uncle Sam.

Im not going to pretend I know what the DOE requires....but reporting revenue (how you derived it) and profit from that revenue seems realistic.

Yes, but it doesn't have the details of how that revenue is used. It might be completely tied up in other areas. The basketball program is profitable, but Xavier absolutely needs it to be profitable in order to function.

I've heard for years from multiple sources that Xavier is really tight on money, ever since this expansion started in the middle of a recession. The TV money they are going to start getting now is great, but between the loss of tournament credits and the A10 buyout, they are coming out a net even on that front. Because they're usually making money there, that is a loss of revenue added on to all Xavier's other financial problems.

The TV money will start being a big benefit in a couple years, but this transition phase, combined with the university expansion and the capital campaign still in infancy, just makes for really tough timing in trying to keep a coach.

[LadyMuskie]

Here are the coaching base salaries as reported by the schools for the latest tax return information available (2011).

1. Jay Wright - Villanova - $2,290,346
2. John Thompson III - Georgetown - $2,211,250
3. Oliver Purnell - DePaul - $2,192,385
4. Buzz Williams - Marquette - $1,105,203 in base and $631,250 paid to "Team Buzz Williams L.P." or $1,736,453
5. Steve Lavin - St. John's - $1,413,952
6. Greg McDermott - Creighton - $1,369,949
7. Keno Davis - Providence - $889,930 (obviously Ed Cooley is the coach now but I would suspect it'll be something similar to this)
8. Brad Stevens - Butler - $853,393 (Obviously Brandon Miller is making much less. I would guess $300k).
9. Chris Mack- Xavier- $750,000
10. Kevin Willard - Seton Hall - $722,509

What I also found that was interesting is that DePaul was also still paying its former coach (and current DOBO for Marquette) Jerry Wainwright around $1.2 million in compensation the same year they paid Oliver Purnell his salary.

Xavier is NOT competitive based upon actual accomplishment. Period.

Based on this list, the real travesty is what Stevens was making based on his accomplishments at Butler.

[XU2011]

According to public document IRS-990 for Xavier University, Chris Mack received a base compensation amount of about $750K in 2011 (the most recent year publically available), and additional bonus and other compensation amounts bringing the total from Xavier to about $860K. This would not include his other deals, such as radio, summer camps (I think), and other stuff. So it's reasonable to assume that he was making north of $1M back in 2011. The 2012 data will be out this summer.

The one for the academic year ending 6/30/2012 is out and Mack had reportable compensation (W-2) of $817,416 and "other compensation" of $43,391 for a total of $860,807. I'm not sure what the other compensation column includes but it says "estimated amount of compensation from the organization and related organizations." For academic year ended 6/30/2011, Mack had total compensation of $732,289 and cash (base and bonuses) of $689,303.

[X-band '01]

It's hilarious that you think the ACC television deal, with football, is just $2MM per year per school.
Try $17MM.
http://sports.yahoo.com/news/ncaaf--acc-tv-deal-further-exposes-big-east-leadership-woes.html

And that example shows why it's foolhardy to think that Xavier will ever be able to pay on the same scale as many other schools. There is just too much money sloshing around other athletic departments.

It also adds some insight on why Buzz Williams would be willing to leave Marquette for Virginia Tech.

[LA Muskie]

I really wish people would stop quoting Forbes as if that list is anything but an annual puff piece. The data is a mess because the schools can manipulate it. Apart from the obvious fact that XU basketball is a profitable venture (something I don't need a Forbes subscription to figure out), it is largely meaningless to me.

[GoMuskies]

Based on this list, the real travesty is what Stevens was making based on his accomplishments at Butler.

They were sort of making up for that by giving him something like 10 guaranteed years.

[bleedXblue]

Yes, but it doesn't have the details of how that revenue is used. It might be completely tied up in other areas. The basketball program is profitable, but Xavier absolutely needs it to be profitable in order to function.

I've heard for years from multiple sources that Xavier is really tight on money, ever since this expansion started in the middle of a recession. The TV money they are going to start getting now is great, but between the loss of tournament credits and the A10 buyout, they are coming out a net even on that front. Because they're usually making money there, that is a loss of revenue added on to all Xavier's other financial problems.

The TV money will start being a big benefit in a couple years, but this transition phase, combined with the university expansion and the capital campaign still in infancy, just makes for really tough timing in trying to keep a coach.

Which opens a whole new can of worms.

You better make sure you're making good decisions around the bball program if its that important to almost every single financial endeavor they embark upon.

To me, it seems a little off kilter for an educational institution to be so reliant upon a sports program. But thats what's become the norm the last 10-15 years. Everyone is doing it.

[LA Muskie]

No one understands the importance of our basketball program as much as Fr. Graham and the BOT. But they still have to run the "business" of the university. They are not going to write the program a blank check. So they have to make tough decisions. Does Chris deserve a raise? I think he absolutely does. Does he deserve a big raise? Looking at him compared to the other Big East coaches I think he does. But sometimes you outgrow your job. And sometimes you have to make tough decisions as an employee. Money is a lot of things but not the only thing. I could still be a lawyer at a big firm making 3-4x what I make now. But I'd never get to play on this board, and most importantly I'd hardly ever get to see my wife and kids. It just wasn't worth it to me.

[GIMMFD]

Here are the coaching base salaries as reported by the schools for the latest tax return information available (2011).

1. Jay Wright - Villanova - $2,290,346
2. John Thompson III - Georgetown - $2,211,250
3. Oliver Purnell - DePaul - $2,192,385
4. Buzz Williams - Marquette - $1,105,203 in base and $631,250 paid to "Team Buzz Williams L.P." or $1,736,453
5. Steve Lavin - St. John's - $1,413,952
6. Greg McDermott - Creighton - $1,369,949
7. Keno Davis - Providence - $889,930 (obviously Ed Cooley is the coach now but I would suspect it'll be something similar to this)
8. Brad Stevens - Butler - $853,393 (Obviously Brandon Miller is making much less. I would guess $300k).
9. Chris Mack- Xavier- $750,000
10. Kevin Willard - Seton Hall - $722,509

What I also found that was interesting is that DePaul was also still paying its former coach (and current DOBO for Marquette) Jerry Wainwright around $1.2 million in compensation the same year they paid Oliver Purnell his salary.

Xavier is NOT competitive based upon actual accomplishment. Period.

Dear lord Oliver Purnell is overpaid... Thanks for the list, it brings perspective. I think Mack deserves a raise based on what he has done in the past few seasons, it just sucks we are going through a transition period. Also another question, if other teams make tournaments or win tournaments, does that bring revenue? I know that if you make the NCAA Tournament you get additional money, would it be the same (such as the Men's swim team winning the Big East tournament, etc.)

[Masterofreality]

Based on this list, the real travesty is what Stevens was making based on his accomplishments at Butler.

Remember, that was 2011.

[ArizonaXUGrad]

Here are the coaching base salaries as reported by the schools for the latest tax return information available (2011).

1. Jay Wright - Villanova - $2,290,346
2. John Thompson III - Georgetown - $2,211,250
3. Oliver Purnell - DePaul - $2,192,385
4. Buzz Williams - Marquette - $1,105,203 in base and $631,250 paid to "Team Buzz Williams L.P." or $1,736,453
5. Steve Lavin - St. John's - $1,413,952
6. Greg McDermott - Creighton - $1,369,949
7. Keno Davis - Providence - $889,930 (obviously Ed Cooley is the coach now but I would suspect it'll be something similar to this)
8. Brad Stevens - Butler - $853,393 (Obviously Brandon Miller is making much less. I would guess $300k).
9. Chris Mack- Xavier- $750,000
10. Kevin Willard - Seton Hall - $722,509

What I also found that was interesting is that DePaul was also still paying its former coach (and current DOBO for Marquette) Jerry Wainwright around $1.2 million in compensation the same year they paid Oliver Purnell his salary.

Xavier is NOT competitive based upon actual accomplishment. Period.

1-3 and 5 are all in big cities where the cost of living is much higher. I would imagine 7 and 10 are higher but I don't know off of the top of my head. I believe Omaha has about the same COL as Cincinnati and I know Indianapolis is comparable. Point is, at what point does COL come into play. Lavin only gets 1.4M. Toss that into a cost of living calculator for New York City and it calculates to $520k in Cincinnati. Obviously, we need to pay him more but if you equalize those salaries based on where they live Mack is doing ok now and with a raise would be much higher on that list.

[Masterofreality]

The one for the academic year ending 6/30/2012 is out and Mack had reportable compensation (W-2) of $817,416 and "other compensation" of $43,391 for a total of $860,807. I'm not sure what the other compensation column includes but it says "estimated amount of compensation from the organization and related organizations." For academic year ended 6/30/2011, Mack had total compensation of $732,289 and cash (base and bonuses) of $689,303.

Which is consistent with what I have said on this site since last summer, boys and girls.

[Masterofreality]

I really wish people would stop quoting Forbes as if that list is anything but an annual puff piece. The data is a mess because the schools can manipulate it. Apart from the obvious fact that XU basketball is a profitable venture (something I don't need a Forbes subscription to figure out), it is largely meaningless to me.

Aaaaaaand....this.

[GoMuskies]

Yeah, the people who publish this site are jerks!

http://xu.edu/news

[bleedXblue]

I really wish people would stop quoting Forbes as if that list is anything but an annual puff piece. The data is a mess because the schools can manipulate it. Apart from the obvious fact that XU basketball is a profitable venture (something I don't need a Forbes subscription to figure out), it is largely meaningless to me.

I'm really not following you on this. Is it your assertion that Xavier has over inflated their profitability? Do you know for a fact that schools manipulate their numbers? If so, how? Really, Im just curious why you think schools would do this and what would the benefit be? So that they can get ranked higher on the Forbes list? Im sure a school like Xavier wouldn't "alter" their numbers in any way they report to the DOE for a loftier status?

[xudash]

It's hilarious that you think the ACC television deal, with football, is just $2MM per year per school.
Try $17MM.
http://sports.yahoo.com/news/ncaaf--acc-tv-deal-further-exposes-big-east-leadership-woes.html

And that example shows why it's foolhardy to think that Xavier will ever be able to pay on the same scale as many other schools. There is just too much money sloshing around other athletic departments.

It's good that you're being accurate regarding the ACC distribution. But keep in mind that you kinda didn't finish the whole story or thought process about that. The obvious fact of the matter is that the ACC fields D1A football. The point? Each ACC school's athletic program department expense structure dwarfs any and all that exist for Big East schools.

It would be wonderful to be able to analyze a common formated income statement for all the schools we care about that we compare to Xavier. Isn't happening anytime soon.

And LA, the Forbes piece may be a puff piece, but, if it is true that all PR is good PR, I would rather have it coming in the fashion of Xavier holding company with those other 19 programs than some of the other forms of publicity we know we don't like.

[LA Muskie]

I'm really not following you on this. Is it your assertion that Xavier has over inflated their profitability? Do you know for a fact that schools manipulate their numbers? If so, how? Really, Im just curious why you think schools would do this and what would the benefit be? So that they can get ranked higher on the Forbes list? Im sure a school like Xavier wouldn't "alter" their numbers in any way they report to the DOE for a loftier status?
"Manipulate" probably wasn't the best choice of words on my part. But everyone reports differently. And no one reports for the Forbes list. It's not like they send out a questionnaire with detailed questions and everyone fills out out using the same methodology. In fact, they don't even send out a questionnaire at all.

XU Basketball is profitable. It is very profitable. But XU Basketball isn't an entity; it's at most an unincorporated division. It has a budget. Its P&L organization (the Athletic Department) has a budget. And the University has a budget. As of 18 months ago (when Mike Bobinski was out here for the Anaheim tournament), those budgets were being cut 10% across the board. What does that tell you? I'll tell you what it tells me -- there isn't a bag of money sitting around to pay about $1mm per year more in basketball coaching salaries.

XU Basketball is very profitable in part because it has a very, very low cost structure. I'm guessing that's by design. I don't see that changing any time soon, and I suspect Chris knows that.

[LA Muskie]

And LA, the Forbes piece may be a puff piece, but, if it is true that all PR is good PR, I would rather have it coming in the fashion of Xavier holding company with those other 19 programs than some of the other forms of publicity we know we don't like.
You won't get a disagreement from me on this.

[sweet16]

Ask yourself this question.......where would Mack be today if he hadn't been offered the XU job 5 years ago? And, as a point of reference, I think you could make the argument that Mack and Kelsey had similar pedigrees (at the time they both became head coaches).

[Masterofreality]

Ask yourself this question.......where would Mack be today if he hadn't been offered the XU job 5 years ago? And, as a point of reference, I think you could make the argument that Mack and Kelsey had similar pedigrees (at the time they both became head coaches).

I'll ask myself this question: "Why should I ask myself this question?"

[paulxu]

And LA, the Forbes piece may be a puff piece, but, if it is true that all PR is good PR, I would rather have it coming in the fashion of Xavier holding company with those other 19 programs than some of the other forms of publicity we know we don't like.

Aaaaaaand....this.

[bleedXblue]

"Manipulate" probably wasn't the best choice of words on my part. But everyone reports differently. And no one reports for the Forbes list. It's not like they send out a questionnaire with detailed questions and everyone fills out out using the same methodology. In fact, they don't even send out a questionnaire at all.

XU Basketball is profitable. It is very profitable. But XU Basketball isn't an entity; it's at most an unincorporated division. It has a budget. Its P&L organization (the Athletic Department) has a budget. And the University has a budget. As of 18 months ago (when Mike Bobinski was out here for the Anaheim tournament), those budgets were being cut 10% across the board. What does that tell you? I'll tell you what it tells me -- there isn't a bag of money sitting around to pay about $1mm per year more in basketball coaching salaries.

XU Basketball is very profitable in part because it has a very, very low cost structure. I'm guessing that's by design. I don't see that changing any time soon, and I suspect Chris knows that.

Which then in turn falls back onto the orignal premise that Xavier U is sucking all the $$$ out of the bball program to pay for lots of other things. Again, not uncommon but at what point do you have to protect the cash cow? I think paying Mack what he's worth is far less risky than letting him walk.....assuming of course, he wants to be here.

[PM Thor]

"Manipulate" probably wasn't the best choice of words on my part. But everyone reports differently. And no one reports for the Forbes list. It's not like they send out a questionnaire with detailed questions and everyone fills out out using the same methodology. In fact, they don't even send out a questionnaire at all.

XU Basketball is profitable. It is very profitable. But XU Basketball isn't an entity; it's at most an unincorporated division. It has a budget. Its P&L organization (the Athletic Department) has a budget. And the University has a budget. As of 18 months ago (when Mike Bobinski was out here for the Anaheim tournament), those budgets were being cut 10% across the board. What does that tell you? I'll tell you what it tells me -- there isn't a bag of money sitting around to pay about $1mm per year more in basketball coaching salaries.

XU Basketball is very profitable in part because it has a very, very low cost structure. I'm guessing that's by design. I don't see that changing any time soon, and I suspect Chris knows that.

Yeah, but when one division of your business just assured a MASSIVE influx of money for the institution as a whole (joining the Big East was driven totally by basketball), you don't go and limit the money into that division just because other divisions are having problems. In fact, you want to invest more heavily in that division because it's the top money earner for said business. Right?

[Masterofreality]

Which then in turn falls back onto the orignal premise that Xavier U is sucking all the $$$ out of the bball program to pay for lots of other things. Again, not uncommon but at what point do you have to protect the cash cow? I think paying Mack what he's worth is far less risky than letting him walk.....assuming of course, he wants to be here.

Bleed, Xavier U is not "sucking" anything. This is not the NBA where a basketball team is an individual entity. Basketball is a portion of the greater institution, which is, errr, Xavier U.

It also still does not mean that folks shouldn't contribute to a worthy cause, when that worthy cause is a major part of enhancing a place that does so much good.

[Masterofreality]

Yeah, but when one division of your business just assured a MASSIVE influx of money for the institution as a whole (joining the Big East was driven totally by basketball), you don't go and limit the money into that division just because other divisions are having problems. In fact, you want to invest more heavily in that division because it's the top money earner for said business. Right?

I don't know of too many on here who aren't saying that CMack does not deserve a raise. We had a whole thread on this last summer.

I certainly think he deserves more...at least to $1.5 mil/year.

[bleedXblue]

Bleed, Xavier U is not "sucking" anything. This is not the NBA where a basketball team is an individual entity. Basketball is a portion of the greater institution, which is, errr, Xavier U.

It also still does not mean that folks shouldn't contribute to a worthy cause, when that worthy cause is a major part of enhancing a place that does so much good.

So, when the University didn't have a high level bball program making millions back in the 50's, 60's 70's and 80's, what did they do? They controlled their costs and made sure that the tuition generated enough revenue to pay the bills. All I'm saying is that their using the bball program to fund a hell of a lot of things apparently. Im fine with that, just dont tell me they dont have the cash to pay a coach what he's worth b/c they have to fund the renovation of Alter to the tune of $18 MM.

[Musketeer_15]

I don't know of too many on here who aren't saying that CMack does not deserve a raise. We had a whole thread on this last summer.

I certainly think he deserves more...at least to $1.5 mil/year.
I would agree with that amount. With a program like the one we have now, our head coach should be making 7 figures when he is in the fifth year of his contract. We shouldn't be a stepping stone for getting "larger" positions. There is no reason a guy that was raised in Cincinnati, coaches at his alma mater, and flat out loves this school should ever be mentioned for other coaching positions. The only reason Mack should leave Xavier is either getting fired (which won't happen anytime soon barring any surprises) or retires. I hope this situation gets figured out sooner than later...

[XUBob]

Been reading this thread with great interest. MOR I agree with you completely, the program needs the financial support of the fans. I'm a season ticket holder, donor to the AFO club and as you know long time vocal supporter. The way this plays out may change what I do. For the first time I will think about renewing my tickets and continuing my donations. No threat, I know I' a wart on the ass of humanity when it comes to the big picture. I want to see what the university does, if another coach goes it will raise big doubts as to weather X really wants a major program or not. Don't go to the Big East if you don't want to or can't pay the freight. Don't mean to rant but there us a part of me that has seen this scenario all too often.

[Always Learning]

Aaaaaaand....this.

If Fox is sending Xavier $4 million a year for its part of the TV deal, if Xavier is selling 150,000 game tickets at perhaps $25 per (if not higher) that totals $500,000 a year, and via marketing in the 'Tas coming to another healthy bank deposit, it is disputable in my mind that Chris isn't making double the posted $750K.

I think its silly to say that his salary is fine because of the COL in Cincinnati. Think its any higher in Columbus? In Durham, NC?, in Omaha?
I like Chris. I like who he is. I like his coaching (Perfect? No, but whose coaching is?) I like his recruiting. I like the unselfish way his team plays. I like the way the play hard. And I don't want him to leave.

But, if the University stays on the cheap salary=wise with him, and thinks just because he is Xavier through and through, they will wake up some morning and Chris will be gone ... and then they will be looking for another guy who will do what Chris has done, and will do in the future, and want to get that guy cheap, it will be a sorry lesson learned.

[GoMuskies]

Don't mean to rant but there us a part of me that has seen this scenario all too often.

I see. It was a total disaster when Staak left and we hired Gillen. Not sure how we ever recovered from Gillen leaving when we had to hire Skip. When Skip left, the program practically fell apart when we had to turn to Matta. Matta leaving leveled the program, and hiring that Miller kid certainly couldn't fix that. Then Sean Miller left, and it was clear that there was absolutely no way that Chris Mack could keep the program from sinking into the abyss.

No, I don't want our coaches to keep leaving. But I'd prefer not to pretend that it's not something that is sure to wreck the program, either.

[Always Learning]

If Fox is sending Xavier $4 million a year for its part of the TV deal, if Xavier is selling 150,000 game tickets at perhaps $25 per (if not higher) that totals $500,000 a year, and via marketing in the 'Tas coming to another healthy bank deposit, it is disputable in my mind that Chris isn't making double the posted $750K.

I think its silly to say that his salary is fine because of the COL in Cincinnati. Think its any higher in Columbus? In Durham, NC?, in Omaha?

I like Chris. I like who he is. I like his coaching (Perfect? No, but whose coaching is?) I like his recruiting. I like the unselfish way his team plays. I like the way the play hard. And I don't want him to leave.

But, if the University stays on the cheap salary=wise with him, and thinks just because he is Xavier through and through, they will wake up some morning and Chris will be gone ... and then they will be looking for another guy who will do what Chris has done, and will do in the future, and want to get that guy cheap, it will be a sorry lesson learned.

[XUBob]

Not pretending it's going to wreck the program. Just saying for the first time it's making me rethink my investment in the program. All the coaching changes you mention were in different leagues and under different circumstances. In my opinion being successful in the Big East can't be done without being at Keats competitive financially.

[GoMuskies]

Those coaching changes came in two different leagues and the results were pretty similar. Actually, the changes we made in the much stronger A-10 worked out better than the changes we made while in the MCC. If we have to make a change in the Big East, logic would dictate it would be even more successful based on past history.

And the teams we had in the A-10 as those coaching changes occurred would have been plenty "competitive" in the current Big East. Xavier's been playing at that level for a long time. We are, of course, hoping to take it to a whole new level that no one in the Big East is currently playing at.

[XU 87]

If X can't Chris Mack, an X grad who once left the Wake coaching staff to return to X, who is a Cincinnati native with Cincinnati family and in-laws in Louisville, then I don't think X will ever keep a head coach longer than 4-6 years going forward.

If Mack were to leave, then I think the message X sends is, "Come here for a few years and then leave for a perceived better job that pays more."

[GoMuskies]

If X can't Chris Mack, an X grad who once left the Wake coaching staff to return to X, who is a Cincinnati native with Cincinnati family and in-laws in Louisville, then I don't think X will ever keep a head coach longer than 4-6 years going forward.

Well, at least not until DFW retires from the NBA.

[kyxu]

If X can't Chris Mack, an X grad who once left the Wake coaching staff to return to X, who is a Cincinnati native with Cincinnati family and in-laws in Louisville, then I don't think X will ever keep a head coach longer than 4-6 years going forward.

If Mack were to leave, then I think the message X sends is, "Come here for a few years and then leave for a perceived better job that pays more."

And I think that was one of the reasons Xavier hired Mack in the first place. Bobinski was impressed with Mack's ability as a coach, but also his passion for the university and program and *knew* he wouldn't bolt for the next job like his predecessors. Xavier could invest in Mack as a "long-term" guy to be around long enough to get Xavier to that next level, not leave for the next big contract when the program is on the cusp, setting it back for another 2-3 years.

But things change. Brawls happen. Star players get expelled with little evidence or adminisrative support. ADs leave. A lot has happened in the past five years at Xavier University, and we certainly can't profess to know what is going through Mack's head beyond dollars and cents.

[TUclutch]

Well, at least not until DFW retires from the NBA.

Is this a rumor now too. I havent once heard or thought DFW would want to coach

[GoMuskies]

Is this a rumor now too. I havent once heard or thought DFW would want to coach

No, although Milwaukee TV has just run with the story that DFW is Xavier's new coach citing sources "close to the Xavier program but living in Wichita, KS".

[LA Muskie]

Which then in turn falls back onto the orignal premise that Xavier U is sucking all the $$$ out of the bball program to pay for lots of other things. Again, not uncommon but at what point do you have to protect the cash cow? I think paying Mack what he's worth is far less risky than letting him walk.....assuming of course, he wants to be here.
I'm going to preface this with the following: I believe Chris deserves a raise. And you will see that I end the post the same way. I don't want my post to create any confusion in that regard.

That said, there is a difference between someone deserving a raise and being able to pay that person the raise they want (and perhaps deserve). I won't pretend to know and understand the complete financial state of the university. That's well above my pay grade. But very smart and successful people -- both in the administration and at the board level -- are tasked with knowing it inside and out. They have formulated budgets based on current revenue and expenses as well as anticipated revenue and expenses going forward. They know what the university can afford and what it cannot. Much, much, MUCH better than any of us here. They also understand the value of the basketball program better than anyone else here. Finally, with help from the Athletic Department and their access to search firms, they should know the market. They know what Chris can get and they know what they reasonably can afford to pay him. If there is a gap, the question is whether Chris can (probably) and will (that's another question entirely...) live with it. Only Chris knows. And we will soon find out.

Again, I hope Chris gets a raise. He probably will. The question really is who will be paying it, and how much it will be. We have a pretty darn good track record on this. Our last 2 coaches left for jobs we just couldn't compete with. I will be bummed if we lose out to WF because that's not in the same ballpark. And frankly I'm sick of being WF's coaching farm system. But I trust our organization to make the best decision, for the team and the school.

In conclusion, give Chris a raise, please.

[muethibp]

If X can't Chris Mack, an X grad who once left the Wake coaching staff to return to X, who is a Cincinnati native with Cincinnati family and in-laws in Louisville, then I don't think X will ever keep a head coach longer than 4-6 years going forward.



And that just doesn't bother me. If Xavier pays what it can reasonably afford (which is a lot of money but never what other schools can pay), has success such that our coaches are in demand and attractive at other schools, and then it happens over again, do you really care who the coach is? I don't. And I don't think Chris Mack is remotely indispensable, just as the coaches that came before him were not.

[LA Muskie]

Yeah, but when one division of your business just assured a MASSIVE influx of money for the institution as a whole (joining the Big East was driven totally by basketball), you don't go and limit the money into that division just because other divisions are having problems. In fact, you want to invest more heavily in that division because it's the top money earner for said business. Right?
PM Thor, this isn't a corporation. You can't spin off the basketball program. So yes, when the mothership is cash-starved, everyone feels the pinch. Also, I think people are over-estimating the short-term cash benefits of the Big East. While there will be long-term benefits, we are probably net negative (or at best neutral) this year and for the next few years thereafter. In addition to paying an exit fee and losing our NCAA units, I believe the conference is using the TV money to pay off most (if not all) of its startup costs and disbursing the remainder.

[GoMuskies]

What start-up costs? They've got like three employees sitting in a law firm conference room.

[danaandvictory]

And I don't think Chris Mack is remotely indispensable, just as the coaches that came before him were not.

I come at this from a couple basic propositions, which I think are correct:

1. Xavier is going to have to significantly increase coach compensation to compete in the Big East, whether it is for Mack or for unnamed replacement coach.

2. If Mack leaves now, we lose our incoming recruiting class (unless Steele is hired, in which case we might retain a few guys) and very likely Semaj Christon, leaving an absolute tire fire for the replacement and likely a 2-3 year rebuild that with our current affiliation will be far uglier than the rebuilds we've had in the past.

So, to me, the obvious answer is to pay Chris now.

[LA Muskie]

What start-up costs? They've got like three employees sitting in a law firm conference room.
Well, that law firm for one. (And Proskauer ain't cheap...) Seriously, though, I'm sure there are startup costs. There always are. Also, there were some rumors that the Catholic 7 would get reimbursed for some part of their lost NCAA units, but I'm not sure how that came out. I just looked and there are conflicting reports on what happened to their old units. This article (http://www.woonsocketcall.com/node/10921) includes a quote from the Providence College AD implying that they gave up their units (“We’re starting up fresh. We don’t have any saved up units, but as we build the league over a period of time, they’ll [sic] be a bigger pot.”). On the other hand, Forbes (http://www.forbes.com/sites/chrissmith/2013/03/08/the-catholic-7-will-retain-ncaa-tournament-units-worth-7-25-million-in-2013/) reported last year that the Catholic 7 had negotiated to retain their units as part of the Big East split agreement.

[GoMuskies]

Why does everyone assume the recruiting class would get busted up? Did Thad lose Skip's class in '01? I honestly don't remember. I know that TJ Johnson and Brien Hanley (along with Kevin Carr and Terrence Payne) kept their commitments to Xavier when Gillen left in '94. Hanley was the highest rated recruit in the history of the program at the time, but of course he never actually played for Xavier (unless you include Midnight Madness and a winless intramurals team). Also, all of the key pieces of a team that would go 23-5 stuck around, and Skip brought in one of the greatest classes in XU history the next fall.

These transitions don't always spell disaster. In fact, they rarely have for Xavier.

[kyxu]

I come at this from a couple basic propositions, which I think are correct:

1. Xavier is going to have to significantly increase coach compensation to compete in the Big East, whether it is for Mack or for unnamed replacement coach.

2. If Mack leaves now, we lose our incoming recruiting class (unless Steele is hired, in which case we might retain a few guys) and very likely Semaj Christon, leaving an absolute tire fire for the replacement and likely a 2-3 year rebuild that with our current affiliation will be far uglier than the rebuilds we've had in the past.

So, to me, the obvious answer is to pay Chris now.

I subscribe to this.

Though I do not think Chris is "irreplaceable" as some have said, I think the ramifications of not keeping him are much steeper than they were with past coaching changes. Much, much steeper.

Further, if we lose Chris now, and things don't change with our coach retention, let's all prepare to go through this song and dance again in 3-5 years.

[GoMuskies]

Proskauer's not particularly expensive, either, and my guess is that the Big East isn't paying much rent, although in that situation they are certainly paying for professional services.

[danaandvictory]

I don't have any clue about the Prosser/Matta transition. The next two were internal hires, of course.

But if Mack leaves and Steele goes with him, we will lose the majority, if not all, of next year's class. Maybe the new coach would be able to fill the gaps with his own guys.

[LA Muskie]

I don't have any clue about the Prosser/Matta transition. The next two were internal hires, of course.

But if Mack leaves and Steele goes with him, we will lose the majority, if not all, of next year's class. Maybe the new coach would be able to fill the gaps with his own guys, of course.
I agree. It's not so much losing Chris (although I'd much prefer not to lose him). It's who replaces him. If we replace him with anyone but Steele, it's a guaranteed rebuild. By someone without much of a track record (because someone with a track record will cost more than what it would cost to keep Chris).

[LA Muskie]

Proskauer's not particularly expensive, either, and my guess is that the Big East isn't paying much rent, although in that situation they are certainly paying for professional services.
The sports labor group at Proskauer is expensive. Theoretically it shouldn't have been a ton of work (it's not like it was a litigated matter or a multi-billion dollar M&A transaction), but in my experience things like this add up nevertheless. My guess is the reason Val has been able to operate on 2-3 people is because they have been using Proskauer folks to run the day-to-day operations. At Proskauer's hourly rate. Even then we should be talking millions. But I'm guessing that somehow the startup costs added up. They always do.

[GoMuskies]

I guess I'll ask again: why so sure of this need for a rebuild if Mack goes? What is different about Mack leaving than was different when prior coaches left? Gillen was missing a class that made 1996 a tough year. Matta left some it a bit bare in '04 that required a couple of years, but it would have been a bit bare if he had stayed (and probably wouldn't have been as bad without knee injuries to Cole and Barker).

What's different this time?

[XU2011]

But things change. Brawls happen. Star players get expelled with little evidence or adminisrative support. ADs leave. A lot has happened in the past five years at Xavier University, and we certainly can't profess to know what is going through Mack's head beyond dollars and cents.

Obviously Mack's relationship with the AD changed going from Bobinski to Christopher. I never really thought about Mack's relationship with Graham after Mike Graham and Co.'s obvious and well publicized mess in handling the Dez Wells situation. The details of how that went down are not pretty, and frankly stunning that there people in leadership positions that inept and unprepared to handle something like that. I'm guessing that changed Mack's relationship with Graham for the worse after that one. That could be a factor in him leaving as well.

[GoMuskies]

I'm sure there were start-up costs, but split 10 ways they were certainly relatively negligible. If they're having Proskauer attorneys to do day to day stuff at anything close to Proskauer rates Val should be fired.

[XU2011]

I agree. It's not so much losing Chris (although I'd much prefer not to lose him). It's who replaces him. If we replace him with anyone but Steele, it's a guaranteed rebuild. By someone without much of a track record (because someone with a track record will cost more than what it would cost to keep Chris).

The question is is Steele ready to lead the Xavier program?

He's got 5 years of assistant coaching experience at Xavier, no playing experience, and a couple years as a DBO/video coordinator.

Miller had 12 years of assistant coaching at Xavier, NC State, Pitt, Miami OH plus a GA at Wisconsin and playing at Pitt. Mack had 8 years of assistant coaching between Xavier and Wake plus a couple years as DBO at Xavier and playing at Xavier.

Obviously, I don't know Steele, but from that, it looks like Xavier would be take a huge risk on him. I know he's a good recruiter, but that's a lot of responsibility to put in the hands of a man with 5 years of experience.

[LA Muskie]

I guess I'll ask again: why so sure of this need for a rebuild if Mack goes? What is different about Mack leaving than was different when prior coaches left? Gillen was missing a class that made 1996 a tough year. Matta left some it a bit bare in '04 that required a couple of years, but it would have been a bit bare if he had stayed (and probably wouldn't have been as bad without knee injuries to Cole and Barker).

What's different this time?
Gillen was replaced by Skip Prosser who was only 1 yr removed from the program. He was probably involved in most of the incoming recruits, and he was involved in all of the current roster. It was essentially an in-house hire.

Skip was replaced by Matta, but Matta a rising star coming off an NCAA coach of the year season and he was able to keep most of the recruits.

Matta was replaced by Miller. In-house hire who recruited most of the players and incoming recruits.

Miller was replaced by Mack. Again, an in-house hire with plenty of roots with the players and recruits.

Steele can probably keep the recruits, although I think the general consensus is that he's a bit less seasoned than Matta, Miller or Mack at this point in their respective careers. So there may be some concerns on the part of the recruits and their families. The bigger issue (for me), though, is whether Steele is ready to coach in the Big East and against the OOC competition we will need to play to guarantee strong NCAA tourney at-large consideration going forward. He seems like a great guy, but if this all goes down I fear it's 2-3 years too early for him.

On the other hand, if we go with someone else (whether that's Kelsey or another rising star), we almost certainly lose Steele. And if we do, while the new coach might be able to salvage the recruiting class the odds are that they bolt -- at that point neither of the two most important people in the program (to them) are left.

[XUBob]

I'm with D & V also at some point in time X is gonna have to pay. Pay Chris now keep the class and avoid loss of continuity.

[waggy]

The more I think about this the only way Mack leaves is if the U wants him to leave, by not paying him competitively. If that happens it says to me they want a complete change, and Steele is not the guy. Let Chris go, but hire Steele? Doesn't really make sense.

[LA Muskie]

I'm sure there were start-up costs, but split 10 ways they were certainly relatively negligible. If they're having Proskauer attorneys to do day to day stuff at anything close to Proskauer rates Val should be fired.
I'm guessing they are. But I'm sure that's not the long-term plan. As Val said in the article that circulated recently, they were just trying to keep their heads above water. That's why they are still using Proskauer offices.

We left a ton of NCAA credits on the table. We don't have any in the pipeline right now. We have startup costs. While the FS1 money will be great, it will take a few years to make a material difference in the P&L. At least that's what I've been told.

[XU2011]

I guess I'll ask again: why so sure of this need for a rebuild if Mack goes? What is different about Mack leaving than was different when prior coaches left? Gillen was missing a class that made 1996 a tough year. Matta left some it a bit bare in '04 that required a couple of years, but it would have been a bit bare if he had stayed (and probably wouldn't have been as bad without knee injuries to Cole and Barker).

What's different this time?

Given Xavier's upward tajectory and momentum as a program over the past decade, and given the results of the past 2 years, I think next year is a critical year in the future direction of the program. At this point, I don't think we can afford losing Semaj, Martin, Bluiett and others if we go outside of the program. After the mess that the last 3 or so years have been- a lot out of Mack's control- we need some stability in the program.

[GoMuskies]

I just don't see that it's so cut and dry that the recruits would bolt. I could definitely see where that may send Semaj off to the draft.

Or Xavier might hire someone the equivalent of John Stockton who Semaj thinks can help develop his game. I just think it's doom and gloom to assume that Mack leaving is going to gut the program. Never happened in five previous tries.

[danaandvictory]

He's got 5 years of assistant coaching experience at Xavier, no playing experience, and a couple years as a DBO/video coordinator.

You can brush it off if you want, but Steele was coaching one of the top AAU programs in the country when he was enrolled at Butler and also did some high school coaching in his early 20s.

Is it ideal? No. It would be a definite risk to hand him the reins. But given the likely alternatives and the benefits of continuity, it might (stress on "might") be the best solution.

[danaandvictory]

I just don't see that it's so cut and dry that the recruits would bolt.

You're entitled to that opinion, I'm just saying it doesn't jibe with my understanding of the relationships in play. Particularly the history between Steele and Trevon Bluiett.

[LA Muskie]

The question is is Steele ready to lead the Xavier program?

He's got 5 years of assistant coaching experience at Xavier, no playing experience, and a couple years as a DBO/video coordinator.

Miller had 12 years of assistant coaching at Xavier, NC State, Pitt, Miami OH plus a GA at Wisconsin and playing at Pitt. Mack had 8 years of assistant coaching between Xavier and Wake plus a couple years as DBO at Xavier and playing at Xavier.

Obviously, I don't know Steele, but from that, it looks like Xavier would be take a huge risk on him. I know he's a good recruiter, but that's a lot of responsibility to put in the hands of a man with 5 years of experience.
I agree. That's the question. It would probably be the riskiest hire we've made in the recent era (pre-Gillen). And it would involve doing so when we are playing in the most competitive league we've ever played in.

[GoMuskies]

You're entitled to that opinion,

But it's not even an opinion. I have no idea what would happen. I just know what has happened in the past when we had coaching changes, and I'm asking what is different. OK, Steele has a relationship with Bluiett. What else is different?

[LA Muskie]

But it's not even an opinion. I have no idea what would happen. I just know what has happened in the past when we had coaching changes, and I'm asking what is different. OK, Steele has a relationship with Bluiett. What else is different?
Go, I think the difference is that ever since Gillen we generally had someone in the pipeline. Everyone but Matta was homegrown for the job. Unless we're planning to hire Steele (and we may, but it's riskier than our typical hires) or a stud rising star (like Matta was), this situation doesn't bear much semblance to the prior ones. And with the market the way it is now, the rising star will likely cost as much (if not more) than Mack would cost.

[GoMuskies]

I really don't see any reason this has to be all that different from the Skip to Matta transition.

But let's hope we don't have to find out.

[LA Muskie]

I really don't see any reason this has to be all that different from the Skip to Matta transition.

But let's hope we don't have to find out.
It doesn't have to be. But there's intense inherent risk there. The stars were aligned pretty well with Matta. He was THE hot young coach who just so happened to be coming out of a school practically in our own back yard (and in the heart of our recruiting sweet spot). There's really no "Matta" for us to turn to this year.

[kyxu]

But it's not even an opinion. I have no idea what would happen. I just know what has happened in the past when we had coaching changes, and I'm asking what is different. OK, Steele has a relationship with Bluiett. What else is different?


Go, I think the difference is that ever since Gillen we generally had someone in the pipeline. Everyone but Matta was homegrown for the job. Unless we're planning to hire Steele (and we may, but it's riskier than our typical hires) or a stud rising star (like Matta was), this situation doesn't bear much semblance to the prior ones. And with the market the way it is now, the rising star will likely cost as much (if not more) than Mack would cost.

The main difference is that recruiting has changed dramatically since Skip coached Xavier. Hell, it's changed since Thad was here. Players are not simply committing to a school anymore, but are committing primarily to a coach and the relationship they have established over a recruiting process that spans years rather than months. If the guy who recruited you to a particular school is no longer there, the desire to play for said school wanes.

[danaandvictory]

But it's not even an opinion. I have no idea what would happen. I just know what has happened in the past when we had coaching changes, and I'm asking what is different. OK, Steele has a relationship with Bluiett. What else is different?

I don't know what answer will satisfy you. Bluiett committed to Xavier - was recruited by Xavier in the first place - in large part due to his lengthy relationship with Steele. If not for that relationship, XU is never in the front door. If Steele leaves he will probably not be at Xavier. These kids largely commit to schools based on relationships with coaches. The coach moves on, they look elsewhere. It's happening at Marquette as we speak.

When Miller left he had three commitments in the pipeline - Kevin Parrom, JD Wetherspoon and Jordan Latham. All three immediately decommitted - Parrom followed Sean, Wetherspoon went to OSU and is now doing well at Toledo, and Latham ended up recommitting to Mack. In addition, X was in the last two for a Ukrainian 7-footer whose name I cannot spell, that kid ended up following Sean. In addition, Derrick Brown was vacillating on whether or not to enter the draft, he pulled the trigger and moved on after Miller exited.

I have literally no idea about the Prosser/Matta and Matta/Miller transitions because I did not follow recruiting then. I do know that Dayton lost all their committed recruits during the Gregory/Archie turnover (not that it hurt them, although I bet they wouldn't mind having LaDontae Henton).

[LA Muskie]

Another difference is that recruiting has also changed dramatically since Skip coached Xavier. Hell, it's changed since Thad was here. Players are not simply committing to a school anymore, but are committing primarily to a coach and the relationship they have established over the recruiting process that spans years rather than months. If the guy who recruited you to a particular school is no longer there, the desire to play for said school wanes.
You're probably right. It's probably a fair presumption that players who were recruited to the Xavier of the early-to-mid 1990's are different than the players we are recruiting today, in that with our increased exposure and level of competition comes players who are more inclined to have allegiance to the coaching staffs than the schools. I think players have always been more concerned about the coach than the school, but that has probable intensified as we have climbed the proverbial ladder.

[danaandvictory]

You're probably right. It's probably a fair presumption that players who were recruited to the Xavier of the early-to-mid 1990's are different than the players we are recruiting today, in that with our increased exposure and level of competition comes players who are more inclined to have allegiance to the coaching staffs than the schools. I think players have always been more concerned about the coach than the school, but that has probable intensified as we have climbed the proverbial ladder.

It just occurred to me that this entire discussion is four lawyers (or, to be accurate, three lawyers and an ex-lawyer) fighting over semantics and I now want to kill myself.

[LA Muskie]

It just occurred to me that this entire discussion is four lawyers (or, to be accurate, three lawyers and an ex-lawyer) fighting over semantics and I now want to kill myself.
Well shit, now so do I.

[kyxu]

*farts*

[GoMuskies]

So if we're talking about bumping Mack to $1.5 million, for example, I think we agree that is something along the lines of $600k/year. Anyone know how many years Mack has left on his contract? If it's 5 years, that means it's a $3 million raise and not just a $600k raise. And could Xavier get away with giving a raise without also extending the contract (while still fulfilling the goal of keeping the coach happy/satisfied enough to stick)?

It could obviously get expensive quick, which might be particularly hard to swallow if Christopher is not convinced Mack is the guy.

And yes, lawyers suck. No one hates lawyers more than lawyers (well, maybe ex-lawyers hate lawyers more).

[Nigel Tufnel]

It just occurred to me that this entire discussion is four lawyers (or, to be accurate, three lawyers and an ex-lawyer) fighting over semantics and I now want to kill myself.

I'm waiving all arguments until closing....

[Masterofreality]

So, when the University didn't have a high level bball program making millions back in the 50's, 60's 70's and 80's, what did they do? They controlled their costs and made sure that the tuition generated enough revenue to pay the bills. All I'm saying is that their using the bball program to fund a hell of a lot of things apparently. Im fine with that, just dont tell me they dont have the cash to pay a coach what he's worth b/c they have to fund the renovation of Alter to the tune of $18 MM.

I was there in the late 60's and 70's. Xavier was almost bankrupt...for a fact. That is one reason why football was eliminated and why we sucked in all sports. Tuition didn't generate enough to pay the bills. They had to let females in to save the school. There isn't a 3rd gender to let in now though.

Damn Bleed you are wrong on every angle you take here. What? Now Xavier isn't supposed to renovate a building that sorely needs it?

Back to my original point. If enough donors gave the school enough money, the endowment would be higher, there would be more investment income to spend and the Basketball revenue could be better left to itself.

[Xu Red Dogg]

D&V, your recap of the Miller to Mack transition just sent me into a sheer panic. I forgot we lost 2 of the 3 and Derrick Brown. Wow.

[bleedXblue]

I was there in the late 60's and 70's. Xavier was almost bankrupt...for a fact. That is one reason why football was eliminated and why we sucked in all sports. Tuition didn't generate enough to pay the bills. They had to let females in to save the school. There isn't a 3rd gender to let in now though.

Damn Bleed you are wrong on every angle you take here. What? Now Xavier isn't supposed to renovate a building that sorely needs it?

Back to my original point. If enough donors gave the school enough money, the endowment would be higher, there would be more investment income to spend and the Basketball revenue could be better left to itself.

Xavier didn't close its doors and you have no knowledge of a potential bankruptcy back then....you just throw this kind of stuff around on this board to inflate your ego for some unknown reason.

I'm wrong on every front b/c I disagree with your opinion?

Ok, whatever.

[xuinmd]

I believe that it was in the late 70's that Chase Law School was up for sale or merger but x could not come up with the funds. That was a serious missed opportunity.

[bigdiggins]

I was there in the late 60's and 70's. Xavier was almost bankrupt...for a fact. That is one reason why football was eliminated and why we sucked in all sports. Tuition didn't generate enough to pay the bills. They had to let females in to save the school. There isn't a 3rd gender to let in now though.

Damn Bleed you are wrong on every angle you take here. What? Now Xavier isn't supposed to renovate a building that sorely needs it?

Back to my original point. If enough donors gave the school enough money, the endowment would be higher, there would be more investment income to spend and the Basketball revenue could be better left to itself.

May not be a third gender but we could cater to homosexuals and watch waggy's head explode.

[JTG]

I
Xavier didn't close its doors and you have no knowledge of a potential bankruptcy back then....you just throw this kind of stuff around on this board to inflate your ego for some unknown reason.

I'm wrong on every front b/c I disagree with your opinion?

Ok, whatever.
I was in MORs class at X and he's right, Xavier was broke...I worked in the Bursar Office with the treasurer Fr.Bassman, for 4 years. By 72 the place was a mess. The school did everything on the cheap. They cancelled the yearbook because they couldnt afford to print it.The athletic dept was hemmoraging money.

[paulxu]

Wait! As a graduate of the aforementioned Law School, member of the Ohio bar, even though I have never practiced, can I jump into this mess?
Will that make my comment weightier? Will it have gravitas?

If so, here goes: We are at a critical juncture with the start up of the Big East; we do not need (anymore) disruption of our program at this time; if you have to borrow a little, secure Mack for at least the next two years to let all the realignment crap play out.

(What? You don't like the use of the word crap? If I knew one of these fancy twitter acronyms I would use it, now wouldn't I.)

[GoMuskies]

Wait! As a graduate of the aforementioned Law School, member of the Ohio bar, even though I have never practiced, can I jump into this mess?
Will that make my comment weightier? Will it have gravitas?


I don't know about anyone else, but I liked you better before I learned this piece of information. At least you had the good sense not to ever practice.

[X-band '01]

I was there in the late 60's and 70's. Xavier was almost bankrupt...for a fact. That is one reason why football was eliminated and why we sucked in all sports. Tuition didn't generate enough to pay the bills. They had to let females in to save the school. There isn't a 3rd gender to let in now though.


May not be a third gender but we could cater to homosexuals and watch waggy's head explode.

Can we count puppets/cartoon characters as a gender?

[RoseyMuskie]

MOR - You seem to have a firm grasp on the financials of Xavier. You have been in the ballpark on Chris's salary for quite some time now. You also seem to be up to date on the other projects/finances.

With that being said, is $1.5 MM feasible? Or what do you think is Xavier's capacity?

[Masterofreality]

MOR - You seem to have a firm grasp on the financials of Xavier. You have been in the ballpark on Chris's salary for quite some time now. You also seem to be up to date on the other projects/finances.

With that being said, is $1.5 MM feasible? Or what do you think is Xavier's capacity?

Rosey, I honestly don't know. I'm hopeful. There was going to be some "fat cat" involvement to help keep the Desert Raccoon around and I would hope that it would be the case again. Xavier has a lot of stuff going in right now and there are some financial pressures. Help from outside is probably needed, at least in the short term. Once we get past all the pain of the payout to the former league with some NCAA credits rolling in again, that will help, plus I believe that a slight ticket price increase would be appropriate.

All that being said, $1.5 million is an important number to meet for CMack, with some upward adjustments for the assistants. They deserve something too.

[Masterofreality]

Xavier didn't close its doors and you have no knowledge of a potential bankruptcy back then....you just throw this kind of stuff around on this board to inflate your ego for some unknown reason.

I'm wrong on every front b/c I disagree with your opinion?

Ok, whatever.

Yes I did know. There are other seasoned posters on this board who know the facts as well, but you can think what you want.

Xavier was also very, verrrrrrrry close to dropping to Division. 3 in NCAA athletics, again as a result of the University's financial state.

[Cheesehead]

Yes I did know. There are other seasoned posters on this board who know the facts as well, but you can think what you want.

Xavier was also very, verrrrrrrry close to dropping to Division. 3 in NCAA athletics, again as a result of the University's financial state.

You take that back right now!!!!

[LA Muskie]

Rosey, I honestly don't know. I'm hopeful. There was going to be some "fat cat" involvement to help keep the Desert Raccoon around and I would hope that it would be the case again. Xavier has a lot of stuff going in right now and there are some financial pressures. Help from outside is probably needed, at least in the short term. Once we get past all the pain of the payout to the former league with some NCAA credits rolling in again, that will help, plus I believe that a slight ticket price increase would be appropriate.

All that being said, $1.5 million is an important number to meet for CMack, with some upward adjustments for the assistants. They deserve something too.
I will make implicit what is explicit in MOR's comment: there is virtually no way Xavier would pay anywhere close to $1.5mm/yr out of its general funds. To get to that number, at least $500,000 (if not more) would have to come from AFO. That's just the way it is. And frankly that's not all that unusual -- schools know that there are boosters who will support athletics in ways that they won't support other functions, so it's their way of spreading the giving around.

[SixFig]

I'm pretty sure there was a specific fund during the Miller years dedicated to the head coaches salary. Not sure how that is going or even if it existed.

Speaking of which...now is as good a time as any to donate to Xavier Athletics. You want to pay the coach...be the change! Every little bit helps!

[bobbiemcgee]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WV6zPB5uKZU

[LA Muskie]

Thanks Bobbie. I needed that.

[kyxu]

Thad Matta is "beaknose" and Sean Miller is "desert raccoon". My question for MOR is, what will Chris Mack's departing nickname be?