Two Full Seasons of Sub-Par Basketball. What now?

[vee4xu]

Last year was explainable. Not excusable, but explainable. And last season was rehashed ad nauseam so no more of that here. But, this year should have been better, no? I understand, new league, young team, etc. But, at one point I believe Xavier was 10-3 and knocking on the Top 25 door. They end the season 21-13, which means 11-10 and leaking oil over the last 5 or so games, save Creighton.

I don't know where to start in trying to make sense of all of this. It is very, very frustrating. I may have more later, but wanted to get this thing started.

So vent away!!!

[GoMuskies]

I expected us to get to the NCAA Tournament, and we got to the NCAA Tournament...sort of. So I cannot complain too much. But we cannot have many more years like these last two.

[GuyFawkes38]

Continue to recruit smarter and better. I think Mack has turned a corner but there's lag with results.

[vee4xu]

X used to take players rated lower than many of those the team has recruited over the past few years and they have grown into very good basketball players by the time they became seniors. That just doesn't seem to be happening anymore and we are presumably starting with better talent. I don't get it.

[XMuskieFTW]

Let's have some perspective here. Our bench consisted of three freshman, a sophomore, and a senior walk-on. We started one senior who was probably our 5th best player. This team is young and after the 2011-2012 we were essentially starting over. Reynolds has a very bright future and we've seen glimpses of Farr that indicate he can turn into something special. We're only really losing Isaiah and gaining much more talentwise in return assuming Semaj stays. The future is very bright and I cannot wait to see what next year has to offer.

[XfansinKy]

I'm out of the loop now living in UK country but is Mack's job secure? I think he probably is as good as the players to an extent but when Miller left I thought X was a final 4 contender and top 25 program. I'm not a Mack hater...just curious.

[GoMuskies]

I'm out of the loop now living in UK country but is Mack's job secure? I think he probably is as good as the players to an extent but when Miller left I thought X was a final 4 contender and top 25 program. I'm not a Mack hater...just curious.

He's fine. If next year is like the last two, he'll be on the hot seat.

[Xavier]

I don't think the new league was all that difficult. Barely got four teams in.

[GoMuskies]

I don't think the new league was all that difficult. Barely got four teams in.

It can't have been THAT tough. WE came in third for God's sake.

[sirthought]

I think Mack needs to be concerned.

His talent hasn't been producing for him. His coaches haven't panned out or left for some reason. There's always a lot of hype about the recruiting, but it's true...Xavier did a lot in the past with players that were no where near as coveted as what we've seen on campus lately. It's almost like we hit a level with Matta and Miller and the kids coming here just expected it would all fall into place.

[OTRMUSKIE]

Last year was very excusable. We lost Lyons to transfer, wells for a stupid reason. We loss Reynolds and Davis and still finished with 17 wins. This year was going to be a struggle and we all just hoped they make the dance and they did just on Tuesday night instead. This team has met our expectations but if they don't improve next year then you might want to start being worried. If the year after that they don't improve then it's time to change the course.

[drudy23]

I think Mack needs to be concerned.

His talent hasn't been producing for him. His coaches haven't panned out or left for some reason. There's always a lot of hype about the recruiting, but it's true...Xavier did a lot in the past with players that were no where near as coveted as what we've seen on campus lately. It's almost like we hit a level with Matta and Miller and the kids coming here just expected it would all fall into place.

There's ALOT to be said with this...it's been complete turmoil under Mack...Kelsey, a lot of transfers, Dez, Lyons, December 2011, Coaches, Recruiting Classes, etc...no stability whatsoever, and a lot of chaos. It's had to have played a part.

[xavierj]

Next year they will have a full load of talent and there will be no excuses. The whole thing with Dez and Lyons leaving really did hurt. Chris also made a couple of mistakes with recruiting and guys leaving but with pretty much everyone back, adding Remy and the new recruits, next year looks very promising.

[OTRMUSKIE]

Next year they will have a full load of talent and there will be no excuses. The whole thing with Dez and Lyons leaving really did hurt. Chris also made a couple of mistakes with recruiting and guys leaving but with pretty much everyone back, adding Remy and the new recruits, next year looks very promising.

I totally agree if semaj stays but if he leaves will we be willing to give Mack another year? NC State wasn't very impressive tonight but X just looked awful. Either Mack has no in game coaching ability or we just don't have the talent. I will still be rooting for NC State the rest of the way.

[LadyMuskie]

X used to take players rated lower than many of those the team has recruited over the past few years and they have grown into very good basketball players by the time they became seniors. That just doesn't seem to be happening anymore and we are presumably starting with better talent. I don't get it.


I don't think the new league was all that difficult. Barely got four teams in.


It can't have been THAT tough. WE came in third for God's sake.


I think Mack needs to be concerned.

His talent hasn't been producing for him. His coaches haven't panned out or left for some reason. There's always a lot of hype about the recruiting, but it's true...Xavier did a lot in the past with players that were no where near as coveted as what we've seen on campus lately. It's almost like we hit a level with Matta and Miller and the kids coming here just expected it would all fall into place.

I concur with all of this. I like Mack, and I think he's got another season, maybe two, to get it together. Let's hope he does.

[Nocalmuskie]

"get it together"? You all act as if this year was an abject failure. THEY MADE THE NCAA TOURNEY AND FINISHED THIRD IN THE BIG EAST, THEIR FIRST YEAR IN THE LEAGUE ... I realize that message boards is where rational thought comes to die, but how bout a little perspective here?


I concur with all of this. I like Mack, and I think he's got another season, maybe two, to get it together. Let's hope he does.

[Masterofreality]

"get it together"? You all act as if this year was an abject failure. THEY MADE THE NCAA TOURNEY AND FINISHED THIRD IN THE BIG EAST, THEIR FIRST YEAR IN THE LEAGUE ... I realize that message boards is where rational thought comes to die, but how bout a little perspective here?

This.

[sirthought]

"get it together"? You all act as if this year was an abject failure. THEY MADE THE NCAA TOURNEY AND FINISHED THIRD IN THE BIG EAST, THEIR FIRST YEAR IN THE LEAGUE ... I realize that message boards is where rational thought comes to die, but how bout a little perspective here?

I completely get where you are coming from. I think if a team wins 19 or 20 games in a season...no matter how strong the schedule is rated...it is a successful season. And if a coach is doing that regularly, you have to think they know what they are doing.

I think where I'm at with all of this isn't so much on the season, but from the program perspective overall.

There was so much momentum for so many years and we just don't feel that currently. While this team has achieved something that many do not, fans are viewing this season as so many "close, but no cigar" moments. They seem to have the potential to dominate, and yet they might just get by. That is concerning.

[Masterofreality]

Questioning the talent recruiting over the last 4 years is legitimate, but, again, I emphasize that getting top players is a long term process that starts early. We started rectruiting Blueitt in the 8 th grade. Coaching stability is essential, and by all accounts, that stability has paid off in next year's class.

In many respects, seeing the talent the last two years, winning 17 and 21 games may be somewhat of a miracle and is an indication of great bench coaching.

[xsteve1]

Questioning the talent recruiting over the last 4 years is legitimate, but, again, I emphasize that getting top players is a long term process that starts early. We started rectruiting Blueitt in the 8 th grade. Coaching stability is essential, and by all accounts, that stability has paid off in next year's class.

In many respects, seeing the talent the last two years, winning 17 and 21 games may be somewhat of a miracle and is an indication of great bench coaching.

C'mom MOR you've questioned a lot of Mack's moves this year. I know you're trying to be positive but you have to have some concerns. When Miller left, X was becoming a national powerhouse. Now were losing 13-14 games a year. Next year is a critical year for the program.

[LadyMuskie]

I completely get where you are coming from. I think if a team wins 19 or 20 games in a season...no matter how strong the schedule is rated...it is a successful season. And if a coach is doing that regularly, you have to think they know what they are doing.

I think where I'm at with all of this isn't so much on the season, but from the program perspective overall.

There was so much momentum for so many years and we just don't feel that currently. While this team has achieved something that many do not, fans are viewing this season as so many "close, but no cigar" moments. They seem to have the potential to dominate, and yet they might just get by. That is concerning.

Well said. There's a spark that's missing that used to be there - even under Gillen and Prosser. Talking perspective - we're not progressing forward. We've stagnated.

[X-Fan]

Disappointing showing tonight for sure, but not surprising. Seems like the guys were just mentally/physically done as we came down the stretch.

Semaj was pressing and at times looked like he did as a Frosh - He will get better
Matt was WAY better than I expected him to be, but was hobbled by his knee - He will get better
Myles just looked completely mentally done - He was a Frosh and will get better
Justin improved a lot and should have a big Senior year
Jalen is going to have a breakout season next year

I recall hearing tremendous things about Abell, and think he'll be a huge addition (especially his D)
Fantastic Recruiting class coming in...we'll have forwards that can get to the hoop!

We will be VERY good next year. We finished 3rd in our 1st year in the Big East, on a team that was young and inconsistent. Everyone coming back will fine tune their games, and regain their confidence.

The future is bright my friends.

Go X!!!!

[xu82]

This may be completely unfair, but here I go... Tu would will the team to win. He would carry the TEAM if need be. Semaj tries to take over the team at times. He can lose track of his teammates because he's decided he's going to the rim. I love Semaj and he's incredibly talented. It's a different mentality. I hope Semaj returns next year and I hope he has the surrounding talent to allow him to spread things around. Then we will know what kind of PG he can be and he can go play in the league with many years of success.

[XUOWNSUC]

We've regressed back to the Skip Prosser years - decent teams that make the tournament more often than not but do absolutely nothing when we get there.

I miss Sean Miller.

[xu82]

Oh, and Matt was amazing! Heal up, get well and be ready for an amazing senior year!

[xufan2434]

It's not that this season was a disappointment by any means. We got to the tournament and that's a step in the right direction. And we are returning a lot of guys and bringing in talent. I just really hope a lot of guys on that bench make huge progress. Maybe it's just me, but when I'm watching this team at times, there's just something missing. I don't know if it's the mentality to get after it or a mentality of refusing to lose. But whatever it is, I haven't seen it in this program in a while. It just seems like when we lineup, the talent is there or capabilities, but we just don't have that extra thing to put them over the edge.

[nasdadjr]

Number one positive from tonight is that Stainbrook didn't tear any knee ligaments and should be fine for beginning of next season.

[Snipe]

Chris Mack is not on the hot seat. He isn't even close to being so. That is crazy talk.

[xsteve1]

We've regressed back to the Skip Prosser years - decent teams that make the tournament more often than not but do absolutely nothing when we get there.

I miss Sean Miller.

This loss was very reminiscent to the ND loss in the tourney in 2001.

[Snipe]

Last time in the tournament we were in the sweet 16.

[Filthy Conservative]

This isn't the Prosser era. 4 tourney wins in 5 years isn't 1 in 7.

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[james notsirhc 0]

I honestly believe this team is one good outside threat away from floating around the top 25. In order to stop us teams just have to pack it in and we can't score, especially if JMart is off (as ye was tonight)

[IM4X]

Gillen's teams got hungrier and better by the end of the season. Matta's teams too. Miller's teams too. Mack's teams seem to sputter and lose momentum towards the end of the season. It's almost as if he needs to focus more on his team's chemistry and playing like every possession counts.

[xuinmd]

I believe we finished 7th our first year in the a-10.

[vee4xu]

Gillen's teams got hungrier and better by the end of the season. Matta's teams too. Miller's teams too. Mack's teams seem to sputter and lose momentum towards the end of the season. It's almost as if he needs to focus more on his team's chemistry and playing like every possession counts.

This is how I feel. In the past it seemed that by the end of Feb or early March I just always sensed that X was peaking and ready to take off. That isn't happening now. Randolph hits a huge 3 to get X going vs UC and doesn't take off his warmup last night. You get the drift. Guys like Chalmers, Sato, Burrell, Raymond, etc got better and better but that isn't happening now. That should be happening even if we stipulate that things have happened that were anomalies over the past couple seasons. I don't want to blame anyone. I'm not a blame guy. I'm a solution guy. It's how I've managed people for 30 years. So let's find solutions and get this thing back on track. I say without blaming him completely for where we are today that it starts with Coach Mack. He's the leader of the program and he needs to step up his game in the solutions area.

[NY44]

Gillen's teams got hungrier and better by the end of the season. Matta's teams too. Miller's teams too. Mack's teams seem to sputter and lose momentum towards the end of the season. It's almost as if he needs to focus more on his team's chemistry and playing like every possession counts.

Last season is the only season that this statement is true for. We just got into the tournament when there were threads on this board saying we wouldn't a week prior. The team won the games they had too. They played tough against Villanova without Stainbrook, beat Creighton and won the necessary game in the BE tournament. How is that losing momentum? We came in 3rd in the Big East when we were projected 7th. I'm sorry, but no matter what your definition is, that's not "sputtering". We all knew this was a young and inexperienced team who hadn't played much together. Jalen Reynolds became a manimal and Justin Martin is 3 times the player he was at the start of the season. Also, NC State is a damn good team. I fully expect them to give SLU a hell of a game.

[vee4xu]

I hear ya 44. Everyone takes different positions based on their person ocular lenses. However, as I think back to the game at Quicken Loans arena versus Marquette in Tu and Lyons' last season, the team had the same sort of look and issues to me then that I'm seeing now. That's just me.

[xsteve1]

Last season is the only season that this statement is true for. We just got into the tournament when there were threads on this board saying we wouldn't a week prior. The team won the games they had too. They played tough against Villanova without Stainbrook, beat Creighton and won the necessary game in the BE tournament. How is that losing momentum? We came in 3rd in the Big East when we were projected 7th. I'm sorry, but no matter what your definition is, that's not "sputtering". We all knew this was a young and inexperienced team who hadn't played much together. Jalen Reynolds became a manimal and Justin Martin is 3 times the player he was at the start of the season. Also, NC State is a damn good team. I fully expect them to give SLU a hell of a game.

Danaandvictory had a good take on the 7th place prediction on scout board. Let's face it the BE had 2 really good teams and 7 mediocre and 1 bad. Marquette and Georgetown underachieved so you would have to figure this was a down year for the league at least I hope it was. When that 7th place prediction came out nobody thought Stainbook would be anywhere near as good as he turned out also something D&V pointed out on Scout.
X just was awful away from Cintas and if X wants to get back to being the program it was that is going to have to change.

[drudy23]

Danaandvictory had a good take on the 7th place prediction on scout board. Let's face it the BE had 2 really good teams and 7 mediocre and 1 bad. Marquette and Georgetown underachieved so you would have to figure this was a done year for the league at least I hope it was. When that 7th place prediction came out nobody thought Stainbook would be any where near as good as he turned out also something D&V pointed out on Scout. X just was awful away from Cintas and if X wants to get back to being the program it was that is going to have to change.

Honestly, you could have flip flopped XU, Georgetown, Marquette, Providence, and St Johns at any given time. All very inconsistent, but at times looked very good. 7th place and 3rd place weren't that different.

[BandAid]

To a large extent we have had to rebuild our culture. Somewhere in the mix of the brawl, Lyons and Dez's departures, thinned out recruiting, and jumping conferences we lost a little of what makes Xavier great.

Our teams in the past simply knew how to pick up the lunch pail and win. They knew that seniors were expected to rise up (Brandon Cole, Anthony Myles, Lionel Chalmers, etc). They knew what to expect when visiting their conference foes both in terms of strategy and facilities. They knew the bright lights of the tournament and how to respond to it (were Martin and Dee the only two with NCAA experience prior to this year?).

The system has been thrown off. This year was a great step. It was below our expectations of the recent past, but next year ought to be better.

[sgarcia]

Danaandvictory had a good take on the 7th place prediction on scout board. Let's face it the BE had 2 really good teams and 7 mediocre and 1 bad. Marquette and Georgetown underachieved so you would have to figure this was a done year for the league at least I hope it was. When that 7th place prediction came out nobody thought Stainbook would be any where near as good as he turned out also something D&V pointed out on Scout. X just was awful away from Cintas and if X wants to get back to being the program it was that is going to have to change.

Pretty much everything you just said is spot on and throw in Butler for underachieving even with the absence of Jones this season.

[james notsirhc 0]

X just was awful away from Cintas and if X wants to get back to being the program it was that is going to have to change.

This is what concerns me most about these Mack squads. We don't seem to have the same energy on the road which is infuriating.

[sgarcia]

Honestly, you could have flip flopped XU, Georgetown, Marquette, Providence, and St Johns at any given time. All very inconsistent, but at times looked very good. 7th place and 3rd place weren't that different.

This. We got 3rd because of a tiebreaker. We could've been 7th and we got clobbered by the 8th place team TWICE.

[XUOWNSUC]

Last time in the tournament we were in the sweet 16.


This isn't the Prosser era. 4 tourney wins in 5 years isn't 1 in 7.

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Mack went to the NCAA Sweet Sixteen with Miller's recruits. It's time to see what he can do with his recruits. So far it isn't very good.

[XUOWNSUC]

When Miller left, X was becoming a national powerhouse. Now were losing 13-14 games a year. Next year is a critical year for the program.

This is exactly how I see it.

[X-ROX]

Watching Myles playing all those minutes while Randolph sits the bench was crazy. I understand that Mack was helping him find his shot, but after a while, it's time to change. Randolph is a Bigger presence on the court and better defender. I guarantee that he wouldn't have shot any worse.

What really annoys me is the "swag" mentality. They have no business trying to create amazing plays when they can't even execute the basics.
Stop trying to show off and play hard, smart, 101 basketball. That will cut the turnovers in half.

Swag's for those that have been "there"

[Masterofreality]

I guess the question is what is considered "sub-par". Probably a generational thing again, but...

Chris Mack has been Xavier's coach for 5 years. He has 4 NCAA appearances and had averaged 22 wins a year. Last year with a short bench he still won 17 games. This year in a better league he still won 21.

For a guy who sat through Seasons of 3, 5, 9, 10 wins, etc. Sub-par means something different than those who are in their 20's.

[bleedXblue]

I think the difference between 25 wins this year and 21 was clearly on the defensive end. We couldnt stop anyone when we needed to. Little to no identiity and little to no enthusiasm on the defenseive end. I think its Macks biggest weakness. We dont turn the other team over enough. We cant dictate pace of any kind. Lots of wrok to do to get better next year.

[vee4xu]

I guess the question is what is considered "sub-par". Probably a generational thing again, but...

Chris Mack has been Xavier's coach for 5 years. He has 4 NCAA appearances and had averaged 22 wins a year. Last year with a short bench he still won 17 games. This year in a better league he still won 21.

For a guy who sat through Seasons of 3, 5, 9, 10 wins, etc. Sub-par means something different than those who are in their 20's.

I hear ya MOR. As you well know I sat through some really bad basketball too and I started the thread. Sadly, in this what have you done for me lately world in which we live today's results are what matter. You make great points about Coach Mack's record to date. I don't dispute that because the records are matters of fact. However, to my eyes so too has been the seemingly lack of progress and growth of the teams that purportedly have more talent than teams over the past decade. There are reasons to be optimistic going forward but also some reasons for pause. We'll see I suppose.

[OH.X.MI]

I guess the question is what is considered "sub-par". Probably a generational thing again, but...

Chris Mack has been Xavier's coach for 5 years. He has 4 NCAA appearances and had averaged 22 wins a year. Last year with a short bench he still won 17 games. This year in a better league he still won 21.

For a guy who sat through Seasons of 3, 5, 9, 10 wins, etc. Sub-par means something different than those who are in their 20's.

I know what your saying MOR. A lot of things in life are about perspective. But still, Xavier is not the same school it was during those rough seasons of the past and fan expectations have rightfully changed. I don't think this season was "sub par," it was just par. Like others have said, the lack of progress and apparent complacently these last few seasons are concerning. No need to jump overboard just yet, but next year is critical.

[Kahns Krazy]

I completely get where you are coming from. I think if a team wins 19 or 20 games in a season...no matter how strong the schedule is rated...it is a successful season. And if a coach is doing that regularly, you have to think they know what they are doing.
.

I think the issue with this team is that they didn't win the 20 they were "supposed" to, and showed some real signs of greatness in other games. They were like the lazy genius we all went to high school with that appeared to do zero work and could get B's without trying, but you just knew they could be getting straight A's because when they applied themselves, they beat the snot out of UC.

The thread titles tell the story of this season: "Can someone tell me who we are" "Which team will show up tonight" etc. We had debates ranging from we would lose our last 7 games to we would snap off wins against Creighton and Nova, and amazingly, we almost did all of that.

I'm torn between being all wound up about the whole season and giving it one big "Meh" and moving on.

[BandAid]

Others have semi-mentioned this, but it might be worth bringing up again. Something that made so good in the past were our seniors and recruiting balance. The upcoming senior (and expected early departures look like this)

2015: Semaj, Martin, Stain, and Dee
2016: Farr, Abell
2017: Reynolds, Myles, and Randolph

Am I missing anyone?

Regardless, next year should be good potentially followed by another "down" year.

I hope next year we are able to return to a more rounded scoring attack with Stain, Semaj, Abell, and Martin all close to averaging 10 a game. We are at our best when our program follows such a pattern.

[UCGRAD4X]

Others have semi-mentioned this, but it might be worth bringing up again. Something that made so good in the past were our seniors and recruiting balance. The upcoming senior (and expected early departures look like this)

2015: Semaj, Martin, Stain, and Dee
2016: Farr, Abell
2017: Reynolds, Myles, and Randolph

Am I missing anyone?

Regardless, next year should be good potentially followed by another "down" year.

I hope next year we are able to return to a more rounded scoring attack with Stain, Semaj, Abell, and Martin all close to averaging 10 a game. We are at our best when our program follows such a pattern.

The following year then this great incoming class will, theoretically, be seniors.

Not sure why you expected a 'down year' - unless you mean in terms of senior leadership.
Compared to next year perhaps, but compared to this year…not so much.
Plus there is always the chance of picking up a fifth year guy.

[GoMuskies]

Plus there is always the chance of picking up a fifth year guy.

We're already two scholarships over. I hope we're not in for a mass exodus that would leave us in position to take a fifth year guy.

[bleedXblue]

Others have semi-mentioned this, but it might be worth bringing up again. Something that made so good in the past were our seniors and recruiting balance. The upcoming senior (and expected early departures look like this)

2015: Semaj, Martin, Stain, and Dee
2016: Farr, Abell
2017: Reynolds, Myles, and Randolph

Am I missing anyone?

Regardless, next year should be good potentially followed by another "down" year.

I hope next year we are able to return to a more rounded scoring attack with Stain, Semaj, Abell, and Martin all close to averaging 10 a game. We are at our best when our program follows such a pattern.

I disagree with a down year in 2016.

Our frosh will be sophomores.....all should be contributing

Reynolds and Abell should be really solid.

I hope that Myles D or Randolph can develop and improve to add to the group

[XUBand]

Can anyone enlighten me as to why James Farr was not in the game for more than 13.9 seconds? The guy was a driving force early in the season then the second half he just stopped getting minutes.

And I know this has been said a million times but X really is missing a guy like CJ or BJ that could rally the team and carry them even if they were down. Hell, even Dante was a heck of a motivator. We need a guy with that fiery passion. That killer instinct. I thought j-mart was going to develop that, and to some extent I think he has, hopefully next year he completes it. I will say this bough. Jalen plays with a lot of tenacity and toughness. He refuses to be dominated. No easy buckets.

[mistabeecee41]

Others have semi-mentioned this, but it might be worth bringing up again. Something that made so good in the past were our seniors and recruiting balance. The upcoming senior (and expected early departures look like this)

2015: Semaj, Martin, Stain, and Dee
2016: Farr, Abell
2017: Reynolds, Myles, and Randolph

Am I missing anyone?

Regardless, next year should be good potentially followed by another "down" year.

I hope next year we are able to return to a more rounded scoring attack with Stain, Semaj, Abell, and Martin all close to averaging 10 a game. We are at our best when our program follows such a pattern.

Not sure if you included speculation which is frowned upon around here with one of your omissions or if that was accidental.

[vee4xu]

I would like to make a clarification. My thread is Sub Par Basketball. As I think more on it, whether subliminal or based on reading the thread, I don't suggest that the resulting seasons are sub par, but the lack of progress in the level of play from beginning of the season to the end hasn't progressed. So the play is sub par to me. Now, logic says that if the play is in fact sub par, then there is a possibility the team would have won more had they progressed and played better. 11-10 is not indicative of growth over the last 21 games. One of our big bragging points was X's overall winning percentage in March over a five year period. That hasn't happened over the past three years, presumably with better talent. We can debate why that hasn't happened but there's no debating that it has happened.

[throwbackmuskie]

Mack went to the NCAA Sweet Sixteen with Miller's recruits. It's time to see what he can do with his recruits. So far it isn't very good.

Yes Miller's guys, becuase you know, Mack wasn't the lead recruiter for those players.

[james notsirhc 0]

Hate to dwell on the whole Dez Wells thing, but that would've made a huge difference. The lack of shooters is concerning, I'll give you that but lets break down Mack's recruits:

not so great: Lantham, Canty, McKenzie, Cantino, Myles (too soon?), and Kamall (probably transfers with scholarship dilemma)
solid: Dee Davis, Philmore, & James Farr (too soon?)
good but not great: JMart (great?) and Travis Taylor
Great: Semaj (unanimous 1st team BE), Dez Wells (3rd team ACC), Jalen Reynolds (future animal down low) and Stainbrook(3rd team BE)

I don't know where to put Randolph but I think he'll be good. However, I believe this team wins around 25 games with Dez. I don't see a down year in 2016, but I'm also believer in Blueitt. With him we have a more traditional go to guy (which Semaj isn't), ala Jordan Crawford and Tu.

[GoMuskies]

solid: Dee Davis, Philmore, & James Farr (too soon?)


Man, if this is what we call "solid", recruiting HAS been bad.

[XUBand]

Man, if this is what we call "solid", recruiting HAS been bad.

In no way would I refer to Dee Davis as "solid"

[james notsirhc 0]

In no way would I refer to Dee Davis as "solid"

Not a fan of Dee personally, but the man was 2nd in the BE with assists. He is probably better suited as a backup PG, but he isn't a complete liability. Anyone know why Mack is in love with the transfers?

[GoMuskies]

He's been in love with transfers because too many freshman recruits have been busts leaving holes in the program that need to be plugged.

Plus, we've landed some pretty talented players that way. And Philmore.

[XUBand]

Not a fan of Dee personally, but the man was 2nd in the BE with assists. He is probably better suited as a backup PG, but he isn't a complete liability. Anyone know why Mack is in love with the transfers?

Dee just makes some bad decisions too consistently to be called solid. That alley-oop pass last night? What the hell was that? According to espns stats (not sure if it is reliable or not) he had 62 turn overs this year. 85 personal fouls, one game in which he fouled out with zero points.

[Juice]

Not a fan of Dee personally, but the man was 2nd in the BE with assists. He is probably better suited as a backup PG, but he isn't a complete liability. Anyone know why Mack is in love with the transfers?

He's also 4th in Assist to TO ratio, 12th in 3P%, and 12th in steals in the Big East Conference. I think a lot of our views of Dee are skewed because we see him too much.

[GoMuskies]

Maybe the Big East conference isn't that good. Maybe it's a conference with two good teams, one team just good enough to sneak into the play-in game and one bid-stealing conference tournament winner.

[throwbackmuskie]

4.7 assist to 1.9 TOs a game is solid. Also 1.2 steals a game. He is not the greatest PG, but he is solid

[XUBand]

He's also 4th in Assist to TO ratio, 12th in 3P%, and 12th in steals in the Big East Conference. I think a lot of our views of Dee are skewed because we see him too much.

No I think our views of Dee are pretty founded. I don't think the big east was that great this year as GOMUSKIES is pointing out.

[drudy23]

Can anyone enlighten me as to why James Farr was not in the game for more than 13.9 seconds? The guy was a driving force early in the season then the second half he just stopped getting minutes.

.

Because he hasn't hit a shot in a month and he gives up buckets every possession.

[drudy23]

4.7 assist to 1.9 TOs a game is solid. Also 1.2 steals a game. He is not the greatest PG, but he is solid

And like JMart, is SUPER inconsistent. You need a steady, confident, and assertive presence at PG...that's not him.

[james notsirhc 0]

Dee just makes some bad decisions too consistently to be called solid. That alley-oop pass last night? What the hell was that? According to espns stats (not sure if it is reliable or not) he had 62 turn overs this year. 85 personal fouls, one game in which he fouled out with zero points.

Inconsistency plagues this whole team, and I feel like it all starts with Dee. When he plays bad, so do we. I still consider him solid, which in book isn a fringe starter/backup on teams around our program prestige. I think Philmore has definitely been a good player, but when we play him alongside Stainbrook our front court is just so slow and unathletic

[XUBand]

Because he hasn't hit a shot in a month and he gives up buckets every possession.

The lack of defense I can understand - I noticed that as well. But the guy gives you another threat on the floor along with Jmart.

[chico]

I think I'd characterize the Big East this year as wildly inconsistent. There are definitely teams with talent (Georgetown, St. John's, Marquette) that were capable with playing with anyone in the country but these same teams would lose to teams they had no business losing to. That might be because of coaching, because I've never thought much of Thomson or Lavin. I was surprised Marquette underachieved because I think Williams is a good coach.

[throwbackmuskie]

And like JMart, is SUPER inconsistent. You need a steady, confident, and assertive presence at PG...that's not him.

Look at Dee's Numbers since the last St John's game, he played pretty good down the stretch

[XUBand]

Look at Dee's Numbers since the last St John's game, he played pretty good down the stretch

We went 2-3 and he scored in double digits in one of those games. He also had at Least two turn overs in all but one game and nearly fouled out in all but the Marquette tourny game.

[casualfan]

As I watched the second half last night the most disappointing thing to me was something that has seemed to have become a theme the last year or so. As the lead widened our guys seemed to be less and less engaged. NC State started getting run outs and easy layups as our guys seemed to pack it in down the stretch. One stretch in particular infuriated me when NC State got out on a runout that looked like an easy layup only to turn the ball over. After the turnover X started bringing the ball up and almost immediately gave it back. It wasn't turning the ball back over that got me upset, it was that there were no less than 4 guys who still hadn't may their way back on D from the original runout. Just a total lack of effort and leadership.

This team lacked leadership and by the end of the year was a rudderless ship. I know some will point to the defections and how that has hurt the program regarding a lack of upperclassmen leaders, but at the end of the day whose fault is that?

I can't help but wonder how the issue will play itself out going forward. I know everyone thinks the freshman coming in will be saviors, but I caution against that line of thinking. A lot of similar comments were made about Reynolds and Myles this past year and with the exception of a few games early for Myles and one late for Reynolds neither really contributed much. They also had two post-high school years to continue to mature and develop that our incoming freshman will likely not get.

My fear is that to make room for the incoming freshman Chris will fire up the ever-revolving transfer door and force a few of our younger guys out. When it gets announced that some combination of Myles/Kamall/Brandon/Farr are transferring I hope people keep in mind all the conversations we've had about a lack of veteran leadership. That right there is why. You can't keep dumping guys after a year or two and then wonder why you don't have any reliable seniors. It obviously hasn't happened yet so I don't want to spend too much time on this, but I think we all see the writing on the wall. Even if Semaj leaves at least one of those guys will be on the chopping block.

I think someone earlier said it best when they said that our program currently has a culture problem. Somewhere along the line the cutthroat chip on our shoulder winning culture started to wain. You can even see it trickling down to the fan base a little bit.

I'm sure some will slide on their blue tinted shades and rip me for this post, but after watching such an uninspired effort down the stretch I just don't know what else to say.

[NY44]

Honestly, you could have flip flopped XU, Georgetown, Marquette, Providence, and St Johns at any given time. All very inconsistent, but at times looked very good. 7th place and 3rd place weren't that different.

That's the difference between being in the play in game and not being in the play in game. which I think is pretty damn different.

[vee4xu]

Farr and Randolph personify my point about sub par basketball. Good start by both in early season. As season progresses the level of play for both diminishes to the point that their basically benched and of no help. Randolph especially since he was such a highly rated recruit. A more long term example is Dee and Martin. Martin has shown flashes of being better but is very inconsistent. Dee has really not progressed in three years and arguably may too have slightly regressed. Say what you will about Matta and Miller, but both demanded excellence while teaching each player what that meant. They commanded the room in practice and on game day. That translated to a focused players and team. By comparison, how would each of us describe today's situation on Victory Pkwy?

[GoMuskies]

They were the difference between being in the play in game and not being in the play in game.

As of this morning those two outcomes are not that different.

[throwbackmuskie]

We went 2-3 and he scored in double digits in one of those games. He also had at Least two turn overs in all but one game and nearly fouled out in all but the Marquette tourny game.

Hmm, ZERO TOs vs Marquette, only 1 vs Seton Hall and Nova. And Dee has never been a big scorer, but put in 8 a game during that stretch, pretty solid.

[nkymuskie]

I'm back and forth on my thoughts on Dee. I love his toughness. I think that along with Reynolds he is the only player on the team that really plays with a chip on his shoulder. Of our guards, he is easily our best defender. Semaj should be, and can be when he wants to, but he just doesn't consistently bring it. I think it really hurt Dee that Randolph and Myles were unable to contribute more productive minutes to give him a break. Overall Dee is a good player that I would always want on my team, he just has his limitations.

As far as next year I'm not ready to bump him from the starting lineup just yet. With our depth next year adding Remy and hopefully an improved Randolph, Dee won't have to play as many minutes.

I'm not real sure where Myles fits in this team in future years. He's just not athletic or big enough creating a gigantic defensive liability every time he is on the court. The bigger guards in the BE really interrupt his shot as well. I just don't know what to think about him....

[XUBand]

Hmm, ZERO TOs vs Marquette, only 1 vs Seton Hall and Nova. And Dee has never been a big scorer, but put in 8 a game during that stretch, pretty solid.

Just don't see it. Just look at last night. That's all you need. I would say semaj is a solid player. I would say Stanley Burrell was a solid player.

We haven't brought up that Dee is consistently finding himself out of place on defense, usually guarding a post player.

[throwbackmuskie]

Blaming that on Dee or the the fact that he is switching to help on D.

[casualfan]

As of this morning those two outcomes are not that different.

Yep. I mean, if you get knocked out of a tourney before people's brackets are due it doesn't feel much like being in that tourney.

The benefits of playing in the play-in game have been discussed ad nauseum so I don't want to rekindle that discussion, but for me last night felt much more like a play-in game than a tournament game.

I'll gladly take the tourney credits though.

[NY44]

As of this morning those two outcomes are not that different.

So you equate a play-in game for the NCAA to an NIT? If so, I couldn't disagree more.

[XUBand]

Blaming that on Dee or the the fact that he is switching to help on D.

Or that he can't effectively move through screens.

[james notsirhc 0]

One has to assume Myles shooting woes were mental. I mean you don't just become a horrid shooter, and I don't care who you're facing. I wanted to see more of randolph but as a friend pointed out yesterday he really doesn't bring anything new to the table. He can slash and score in the lane (if at all). He is a better defender but it's not enough to outweigh the potential positive that Myles could give us with permitter shooting.

[XUBand]

Yep. I mean, if you get knocked out of a tourney before people's brackets are due it doesn't feel much like being in that tourney.

The benefits of playing in the play-in game have been discussed ad nauseum so I don't want to rekindle that discussion, but for me last night felt much more like a play-in game than a tournament game.

I'll gladly take the tourney credits though.

I agree with everything here. I think NC State wanted to be considered "in the tournament" more and had something to prove to the media after they got bashed.

[nkymuskie]

Farr and Randolph personify my point about sub par basketball. Good start by both in early season. As season progresses the level of play for both diminishes to the point that their basically benched and of no help. Randolph especially since he was such a highly rated recruit. A more long term example is Dee and Martin. Martin has shown flashes of being better but is very inconsistent. Dee has really not progressed in three years and arguably may too have slightly regressed. Say what you will about Matta and Miller, but both demanded excellence while teaching each player what that meant. They commanded the room in practice and on game day. That translated to a focused players and team. By comparison, how would each of us describe today's situation on Victory Pkwy?

Martin played his ass off tonight trying to guard probably the 2nd best scorer in the country tonight because we had absolutely no one else who could guard Warren 1 v 1. Banging with a guy that has 3 inches and 30 pounds ALL night is physically exhausting. The extra effort expended on the defensive end undoubtedly took away from his offensive game tonight. You could tell that towards the latter part of the 2nd half, Martin was simply gassed and that led to some easy points for TJ.

Martin has really proven himself this year. Without him, this team loses a lot more games and isn't even close to the tournament. Next year we will finally have more than one small forward that can contribute minutes (hopefully), which means we will never have to see Myles at the 3 again (Thank God). I think Martin will have a huge year next year and be a borderline Big East AA. That's my bold prediction for J-Mart.

[mistabeecee41]

if I'm Mack, instead of encouraging Myles to get into the gym and shoot 500 shots/day - I'm telling him not to touch a basketball for a few weeks. Kid just needs to get his head straight.

[throwbackmuskie]

Or that he can't effectively move through screens.

LOL, he is prob the best on ball defender we have. We get it you don't like him, keep trying to pick.

[casualfan]

if I'm Mack, instead of encouraging Myles to get into the gym and shoot 500 shots/day - I'm telling him to learn how to help the team in some other way so when he misses shots he isn't completely useless

I fixed that for you.

I say that partially tongue in cheek, but is is more true than even I may want to admit.

The issue with guys like Brad and Myles that are on a D1 team for one reason and one reason only is that when they're unable to hit shots, they have no other ability to help the team win.

From what I have seen from Myles so far he is slow, he's not very good of the bounce, and he is an awful defender.

The fact that he is missing shots gets magnified by the fact that he can't get to the rim and try to get fouled nor can he keep his man in front of him on defense.

You can't be a one trick pony at this level. Teams will scout you and they damn sure have the athletes to guard your strengths.

[XUBand]

LOL, he is prob the best on ball defender we have. We get it you don't like him, keep trying to pick.

You know I wouldn't be disagreeing so much if I was alone on the issue.

[IM4X]

I would like to make a clarification. My thread is Sub Par Basketball. As I think more on it, whether subliminal or based on reading the thread, I don't suggest that the resulting seasons are sub par, but the lack of progress in the level of play from beginning of the season to the end hasn't progressed. So the play is sub par to me. Now, logic says that if the play is in fact sub par, then there is a possibility the team would have won more had they progressed and played better. 11-10 is not indicative of growth over the last 21 games. One of our big bragging points was X's overall winning percentage in March over a five year period. That hasn't happened over the past three years, presumably with better talent. We can debate why that hasn't happened but there's no debating that it has happened.

This is not only true, it suggests that the coach must take some more responsibility. It makes no sense for us to be criticizing players for not playing well or not "bringing it" at times and then ignoring the fact that it's the coach who, like a Jockey riding a thoroughbred in a horse race, is there to ride his players and get the most out of them.

It isn't about the number of games we win or lose- it's that the team is losing games it should be winning with the talent they now have. It's how players continue to make bonehead turnovers that they don't seem to learn from. It's how players like Martin, while playing good defense at times, will also stand around after shooting (and missing) a 3 while his defender TJ Warren (who was out of bounds 10 feet behind him) runs right past him on a break and make a bucket. It's about how the coach is passive and doesn't yell out to the players and address mistakes on the spot when they happen like previous X coaches would.

Is there anyone on this board who can honestly say this team was ready to play last night? Is there anyone who can say it wasn't at least in part the responsibility of the coach to have his team ready and playing hungrier than ever? I think if we were all being honest, we'd admit that last night's performance (aside form Stainbrook) was easily Sub par across the board- including Mack's.

[throwbackmuskie]

You know I wouldn't be disagreeing so much if I was alone on the issue.

And most just want to pick, the fact is Dee has been pretty solid this season. A PG who lead a team to 21 wins.

[GoMuskies]

So you equate a play-in game for the NCAA to an NIT? If so, I couldn't disagree more.

Yesterday I didn't. Today? Not that different.

[NY44]

Ok, so to answer the "now what?" question at the start of the thread: people whine.

There's nothing to be done about the season, it is now "last year". If you're not excited about the prospects for next year, you're nuts. I'm sure the players and Mack aren't happy about the way the season ended either and will work to fix any issues.

[Masterofreality]

Anyone know why Mack is in love with the transfers?

Two words: Matt Stainbrook.

Uh, and what other coach isn't "in love with transfers?"

[IM4X]

As I watched the second half last night the most disappointing thing to me was something that has seemed to have become a theme the last year or so. As the lead widened our guys seemed to be less and less engaged. NC State started getting run outs and easy layups as our guys seemed to pack it in down the stretch. One stretch in particular infuriated me when NC State got out on a runout that looked like an easy layup only to turn the ball over. After the turnover X started bringing the ball up and almost immediately gave it back. It wasn't turning the ball back over that got me upset, it was that there were no less than 4 guys who still hadn't may their way back on D from the original runout. Just a total lack of effort and leadership.

This team lacked leadership and by the end of the year was a rudderless ship. I know some will point to the defections and how that has hurt the program regarding a lack of upperclassmen leaders, but at the end of the day whose fault is that?

I can't help but wonder how the issue will play itself out going forward. I know everyone thinks the freshman coming in will be saviors, but I caution against that line of thinking. A lot of similar comments were made about Reynolds and Myles this past year and with the exception of a few games early for Myles and one late for Reynolds neither really contributed much. They also had two post-high school years to continue to mature and develop that our incoming freshman will likely not get.

My fear is that to make room for the incoming freshman Chris will fire up the ever-revolving transfer door and force a few of our younger guys out. When it gets announced that some combination of Myles/Kamall/Brandon/Farr are transferring I hope people keep in mind all the conversations we've had about a lack of veteran leadership. That right there is why. You can't keep dumping guys after a year or two and then wonder why you don't have any reliable seniors. It obviously hasn't happened yet so I don't want to spend too much time on this, but I think we all see the writing on the wall. Even if Semaj leaves at least one of those guys will be on the chopping block.

I think someone earlier said it best when they said that our program currently has a culture problem. Somewhere along the line the cutthroat chip on our shoulder winning culture started to wain. You can even see it trickling down to the fan base a little bit.

I'm sure some will slide on their blue tinted shades and rip me for this post, but after watching such an uninspired effort down the stretch I just don't know what else to say.

Sounds like a fair assessment to me. I am feeling much of what you are.

[NY44]

Yesterday I didn't. Today? Not that different.

Hindsight's 20/20

[Masterofreality]

Martin played his ass off tonight trying to guard probably the 2nd best scorer in the country tonight because we had absolutely no one else who could guard Warren 1 v 1. Banging with a guy that has 3 inches and 30 pounds ALL night is physically exhausting. The extra effort expended on the defensive end undoubtedly took away from his offensive game tonight. You could tell that towards the latter part of the 2nd half, Martin was simply gassed and that led to some easy points for TJ.

Martin has really proven himself this year. Without him, this team loses a lot more games and isn't even close to the tournament. Next year we will finally have more than one small forward that can contribute minutes (hopefully), which means we will never have to see Myles at the 3 again (Thank God). I think Martin will have a huge year next year and be a borderline Big East AA. That's my bold prediction for J-Mart.

Agree 1000% with this. Just remember how Hammer's offense fell off when he decided to be the shut down defender. His unselfishness helped lead XU to the Elite 8 although his offensive numbers were down.

JMart impressed the hell out of me this year and turned my mind around. He busted his ass last night on Warren. I hope he comes back.

[casualfan]

Sounds like a fair assessment to me. I am feeling much of what you are.

Glad I'm not the only one. I want to think these past two years have just been blips on the radar, but I see too many things going on with this program that have me worried.

Ah well, on to baseball season.

[THRILLHOUSE]

Dee is wildly inconsistent. Unfortunately X didn't really have any other options so they had to ride the Dee wave and hope that Good Dee would show up. I'm hoping next year he can be more of a role player and that we don't have to depend so much on his play. But that will likely depend on Semaj's decision.

[drudy23]

Kamall Richards has no place on this team...I would think he realizes that.

[IM4X]

Last season is the only season that this statement is true for. We just got into the tournament when there were threads on this board saying we wouldn't a week prior. The team won the games they had too. They played tough against Villanova without Stainbrook, beat Creighton and won the necessary game in the BE tournament. How is that losing momentum? We came in 3rd in the Big East when we were projected 7th. I'm sorry, but no matter what your definition is, that's not "sputtering". We all knew this was a young and inexperienced team who hadn't played much together. Jalen Reynolds became a manimal and Justin Martin is 3 times the player he was at the start of the season. Also, NC State is a damn good team. I fully expect them to give SLU a hell of a game.

X started off the season with a 5 game win streak then followed that up 4 games later with an 8 game win streak and then never won more than 2 games in a row the rest of the season... I believe that fits the definition of both "Losing momentum" and "Sputtering" quite well- thank you.

[mistabeecee41]

Kamall Richards has no place on this team...I would think he realizes that.

Harsh, but true. Really, really tough blow for the kid with that injury. Might make it tougher to find a destination if he is the one who is on his way out.

[xumuskies08]

X started off the season with a 5 game win streak then followed that up 4 games later with an 8 game win streak and then never won more than 2 games in a row the rest of the season... I believe that fits the definition of both "Losing momentum" and "Sputtering" quite well- thank you.

They also played 5 games against top 10 teams during that span. Tough to string together wins against that level of competition.

[casualfan]

Kamall Richards has no place on this team...I would think he realizes that.

Makes you wonder what the hell Mack was thinking taking him in the first place.

Shades of Cantino.

[IM4X]

They also played 5 games against top 10 teams during that span. Tough to string together wins against that level of competition.

True... And I took that into consideration, but there was a string of 6 games where X didn't play those top 10 teams you are speaking of and we still could not get more than two straight wins during that stretch.

[GoMuskies]

We played five top 10 teams?!?

[drudy23]

Makes you wonder what the hell Mack was thinking taking him in the first place.

Shades of Cantino.

He's a coach, not a fortune teller. That's why you get as many as you can, b/c you know they won't all work out as expected.

[Xman95]

They knew that seniors were expected to rise up (Brandon Cole, Anthony Myles, Lionel Chalmers, etc).

This is a huge part of it. Unfortunately - for this season - we only had one senior that was truly counted on (Philmore) this year. Fortunately - for next season - we only had one senior that was truly counted on this year.

IF, big IF, Semaj comes back (and his decision making and inability as a shooter suggest he should consider it) we will be looking at what should be a VERY GOOD TEAM. This could very well be what we look at next season (obviously there will need to be some transfers - two, I believe - but I don't know who those will be and I'm not going to speculate now):

PG - Semaj
SG - Abell
SF - Martin
PF - Reynolds
C - Stainbrook

Bench: D.Davis, Sumner, M.Davis, Blueitt, Macura, Farr, London, O'Mara, Randolph, Richards


That starting line-up should be outstanding and I honestly think anything less than Sweet 16 would be a disappointment. Next year's team would be a nice combination of talent and experience. If results aren't there with this team, there would be a lot of questions raised regarding the leadership/coaching of the program.

[casualfan]

He's a coach, not a fortune teller. That's why you get as many as you can, b/c you know they won't all work out as expected.

Um, one of the responsibilities of a coach is to project guys to this level...

[drudy23]

Um, one of the responsibilities of a coach is to project guys to this level...

And there's also 12-15 players for a rotation of 8-9...it happens everywhere. Kamal Richards could go somewhere else and probably be very good...we'd never know it because we've never seen him play.

[profson]

Just don't see it. Just look at last night. That's all you need. I would say semaj is a solid player. I would say Stanley Burrell was a solid player.

We haven't brought up that Dee is consistently finding himself out of place on defense, usually guarding a post player.

Hilarious. Unanimous first team all-BE (with McDermott and Cotton) as a sophomore only rates a "solid". Must be tough to wake up in the morning knowing almost no one will rise up to standard.

[profson]

So you equate a play-in game for the NCAA to an NIT? If so, I couldn't disagree more.

Makes a huge difference for the resume and recruiting.

[XfansinKy]

Agree 1000% with this. Just remember how Hammer's offense fell off when he decided to be the shut down defender. His unselfishness helped lead XU to the Elite 8 although his offensive numbers were down.

JMart impressed the hell out of me this year and turned my mind around. He busted his ass last night on Warren. I hope he comes back.
JMart has changed my little opinion of him too. He made me a fan in an interview and his play just made it more fun. I know he has a smooth style of play but I believe his sometimes lack of interest may be more frustration like SC. Along with big Matt n a couple others this team I believe has some big talent like most of us thought pre-season and I imagine its frustrating.

[profson]

X started off the season with a 5 game win streak then followed that up 4 games later with an 8 game win streak and then never won more than 2 games in a row the rest of the season... I believe that fits the definition of both "Losing momentum" and "Sputtering" quite well- thank you.

May have something to do with our conference schedule being heavily loaded at home at the beginning, no?

[NY44]

X started off the season with a 5 game win streak then followed that up 4 games later with an 8 game win streak and then never won more than 2 games in a row the rest of the season... I believe that fits the definition of both "Losing momentum" and "Sputtering" quite well- thank you.

Take it easy with the rhetoric, noob. If you get down to it there are reasons for those numbers. Mainly conference play versus non-conference play. There's nothing surprising about us slowing down when we go into conference play and face every team twice, we talked about this earlier in the season. I would love to see the collective RPI of our non-conference schedule and the Big East.

[Lamont Sanford]

Richards was a late add at the 3 spot when other SF recruits fell through. Essentially he had a one year audition that more than likely will not be renewed. Best of luck to him in the MEAC or CAA.

I still think Randolph can be made into a solid BE guard. He has the right size and he showed early in the season (ex. the Shootout) that he has skills. Not sure if he got homesick as the year progressed or if the health of his Grandfather weighed on him, but he clearly was not the same player at the end of the season.

[casualfan]

Richards was a late add at the 3 spot when other SF recruits fell through. Essentially he had a one year audition that more than likely will not be renewed. Best of luck to him in the MEAC or CAA.

I still think Randolph can be made into a solid BE guard. He has the right size and he showed early in the season (ex. the Shootout) that he has skills. Not sure if he got homesick as the year progressed or if the health of his Grandfather weighed on him, but he clearly was not the same player at the end of the season.

Like I said earlier, I just hope people remember being ok with Mack taking guys for one or two year trials they next time they want to complain about our lack of veteran leadership.

You can't have your cake and eat it to.

At some point cycling kids in an out of your program begins to catch up with you and I think we starting to see that happen.

[drudy23]

I think alot of people confuse skill and impact...Semaj has a ton of skill, but that doesn't mean he's as impactful as someone like The Hammer. Semaj could get there, but there's some maturation in his game that needs to take place to realize his complete potential as a BASKETBALL PLAYER, not just a great athlete with basketball skills.

[profson]

Makes you wonder what the hell Mack was thinking taking him in the first place.

Shades of Cantino.

Completely different situations. Richards was a Rivals 3-star added in the regular recruiting cycle. When Cantino was added the roster was depleted, an extra scholy was available and it was a desperate attempt to add an available JUCO. No one thought Cantino was more than fill at best. If he did not pan out, no loss.

[Caveat]

I think the difference between 25 wins this year and 21 was clearly on the defensive end. We couldnt stop anyone when we needed to. Little to no identiity and little to no enthusiasm on the defenseive end. I think its Macks biggest weakness. We dont turn the other team over enough. We cant dictate pace of any kind. Lots of wrok to do to get better next year.

This is a great point -- last night they were perfectly content to let NC State grind out their offensive possessions even as the game was getting further out of reach. There was no attempt to change the tempo with a little press or switching off into a zone just to give them a different look.

The team also continues to be plagued with defensive lapses that are just, flat out, mental errors. That's been the case, now, for several seasons in a row.

[GoMuskies]

Kenpom says we were the 77th best defensive team in the country. That's not real good.

I need to readjust my bracket after seeing Creighton's defensive ratings. I knew they were pretty bad, but it turns out they're more like a sieve.

[Xman95]

Honestly, I think people are underrating the Big East by saying there were two really good teams and a bunch of mediocre ones. Like other good conferences, I think these teams beat each other up. Here's what some of the "mediocre" teams did in non-conf play:

Gtown...10-3 with wins vs Mich St, VCU, Kansas St, WVU
Providence...10-3, no overly impressive non-conf wins (did go to OT with UMass, ranked #25 at the time)
St. John's...9-4, no overly impressive wins (5-pt loss to #2 Syracuse, 11-pt loss to Wisc)
Marquette...8-5, beat GW (2-pt loss at Ariz St, tough losses vs SDSU, New Mex, Wisc)
Seton Hall (considered to be garbage by some)...9-4, no big wins (1-pt loss to Oklahoma)


Obviously this group is not on par with the ACC or Big Ten, but I think it's better than just mediocre. Just watch Providence and you see a good team and a good coach. Georgetown struggled in conference and had some inconsistency, but they did some serious work in non-conf. Marquette is a team in transition, but they're still not a gimme. St. John's was the most disappointing of that group, but they still took Syracuse to the wire when Syracuse was rolling. Seton Hall is viewed as being bad, but they still went 9-4 out of the conference.

In past years this is exactly what the Big East did and it was praised. Come into conference play with solid records and beat each other up. That's what happened this year and suddenly the league is viewed as mediocre. Go check what the AAC did out of conference. For the life of me I can't figure out why people are so high on those teams.

[casualfan]

Honestly, I think people are underrating the Big East by saying there were two really good teams and a bunch of mediocre ones. Like other good conferences, I think these teams beat each other up. Here's what some of the "mediocre" teams did in non-conf play:

Gtown...10-3 with wins vs Mich St, VCU, Kansas St, WVU
Providence...10-3, no overly impressive non-conf wins (did go to OT with UMass, ranked #25 at the time)
St. John's...9-4, no overly impressive wins (5-pt loss to #2 Syracuse, 11-pt loss to Wisc)
Marquette...8-5, beat GW (2-pt loss at Ariz St, tough losses vs SDSU, New Mex, Wisc)
Seton Hall (considered to be garbage by some)...9-4, no big wins (1-pt loss to Oklahoma)


Obviously this group is not on par with the ACC or Big Ten, but I think it's better than just mediocre. Just watch Providence and you see a good team and a good coach. Georgetown struggled in conference and had some inconsistency, but they did some serious work in non-conf. Marquette is a team in transition, but they're still not a gimme. St. John's was the most disappointing of that group, but they still took Syracuse to the wire when Syracuse was rolling. Seton Hall is viewed as being bad, but they still went 9-4 out of the conference.

In past years this is exactly what the Big East did and it was praised. Come into conference play with solid records and beat each other up. That's what happened this year and suddenly the league is viewed as mediocre. Go check what the AAC did out of conference. For the life of me I can't figure out why people are so high on those teams.

3 of the 4 teams you listed combined for exactly one notable OOC win and it was over George Washington.

If that isn't mediocre I don't know what mediocre is.

[throwbackmuskie]

Funny the RPI ranks the Big East as #4

http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/bracketology/conference

[Xman95]

One quick note on last night's game: Semaj should have had a field day against NC St's PG. He seemed content to pressure and cut off lanes, but it didn't seem like there was much interest in hounding and getting steals. For someone that's apparently considering going pro, he should have absolutely abused that kid on the defensive side (when X had the ball he seemed to be guarding Dee, who should have done more on that end).

[Xman95]

3 of the 4 teams you listed combined for exactly one notable OOC win and it was over George Washington.

If that isn't mediocre I don't know what mediocre is.

It's not great, but I think it's better than mediocre, especially X, Gtown and Prov. Again, people are going gaga over the AAC and the non-conf performance there was similar, if not worse. Hell, X pasted one of the top two teams in that conference.

If anyone thinks X was mediocre this year, then they have no business being upset with losing to NC St. A mediocre team shouldn't even be considered for the tourney. I don't think X was great, but they were a good team. Good teams can have flaws and that's what happened with X.

[Cheesehead]

They are who we thought they were!

[Xman95]

Funny the RPI ranks the Big East as #4

http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/bracketology/conference

Which would probably be difficult with only two good teams.

[Caveat]

One quick note on last night's game: Semaj should have had a field day against NC St's PG. He seemed content to pressure and cut off lanes, but it didn't seem like there was much interest in hounding and getting steals. For someone that's apparently considering going pro, he should have absolutely abused that kid on the defensive side (when X had the ball he seemed to be guarding Dee, who should have done more on that end).

You talking about the white kid?

Tyler Lewis was a McDonalds All-American. Kid played at Oak Hills Academy in VA and was a stud. Don't be confused -- he can ball-out on both sides of the court.

[GoMuskies]

Funny the RPI ranks the Big East as #4

http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/bracketology/conference

They made it there by having two good teams, six mediocre ones, two bad ones and no abysmally terrible ones. It's one way to git 'er done. It doesn't make being #3 all that noteable, though.

[IM4X]

Take it easy with the rhetoric, noob. If you get down to it there are reasons for those numbers. Mainly conference play versus non-conference play. There's nothing surprising about us slowing down when we go into conference play and face every team twice, we talked about this earlier in the season. I would love to see the collective RPI of our non-conference schedule and the Big East.



Hey NY44, I was just defending my comments by backing them up with facts. That what you've got to do when you feel someone is unfairly dismissing your observations. Technically, I am only new at posting comments- I have been reading posts on this board for years.

Listen, I get that Big East teams were tougher (in general) than most of the non-conference teams we played, but again, X never could get more than 2 consecutive wins in the second half of the season- which was key to the specific point I was making about Mack's teams losing momentum and sputtering.

[throwbackmuskie]

They made it there by having two good teams, six mediocre ones, two bad ones and no abysmally terrible ones. It's one way to git 'er done. It doesn't make being #3 all that noteable, though.

Click on the breakdown tabs at the top, you will see BE only had a losing record to the Big12 and MW this year. They did more than hold their own, 4-3 vs ACC, 5-5 vs Big 10...

[throwbackmuskie]

Hey NY44, I was just defending my comments by backing them up with facts. That what you've got to do when you feel someone is unfairly dismissing your observations. Technically, I am only new at posting comments- I have been reading posts on this board for years.

Listen, I get that Big East teams were tougher (in general) than most of the non-conference teams we played, but again, X never could get more than 2 consecutive wins in the second half of the season- which was key to the specific point I was making about Mack's teams losing momentum and sputtering.

so you are making a general point about the last two season? Hmm, His 1st three years the teams finished well.

[GoMuskies]

I'm not sure what your post has to do with mine?

[throwbackmuskie]

I'm not sure what your post has to do with mine?

not surprisd, the point was the BE was more than just 2 good teams.

[GoMuskies]

not surprisd, the point was the BE was more than just 2 good teams.

I know, it was also six mediocre teams and two bad ones. Not sure how anyone can even pretend to dispute that. The RPI you're touting pretty much spells that out.

[throwbackmuskie]

I know, it was also six mediocre teams and two bad ones. Not sure how anyone can even pretend to dispute that. The RPI you're touting pretty much spells that out.

Yep you get to be 4th best by being mediocre. I mean hell the 3rd ranked team beat the AAC's Champ.

[GoMuskies]

In case you work better with #s:
5
10
40
47
67
69
92
128
150
154

[LadyMuskie]

Yep you get to be 4th best by being mediocre. I mean hell the 3rd ranked team beat the AAC's Champ.

The 3rd ranked team also lost to Seton Hall - twice. Badly.

[GoMuskies]

The 3rd ranked team also lost to Seton Hall - twice. Badly.

And the last place team in the Pac 12

[throwbackmuskie]

In case you work better with #s:
5
10
40
47
67
69
92
128
150
154

#4

[throwbackmuskie]

The 3rd ranked team also lost to Seton Hall - twice. Badly.

Seton Hall also beat Nova, so that Seton Hall team really isn't that bad is it.

[GoMuskies]

#4

That's a great number. Reached with two good teams, six mediocre ones and two bad ones. Seems we're going in circles here.

Since we came in third in the league, can you name the third good team in the Big East?

[GoMuskies]

Seton Hall also beat Nova, so that Seton Hall team really isn't that bad is it.

Don't mention Fairly Ridiculous or St. Peters. Or Butler.

[throwbackmuskie]

let's just skip over the fact that over 1/2 the league won 20 games this year

[GoMuskies]

Half of the American won 23 or more games. 6/13 of the A-10 won 23 or more.

[LadyMuskie]

Seton Hall also beat Nova, so that Seton Hall team really isn't that bad is it.

Are you serious? I mean seriously. Are you serious? Their RPI is in the 120s, they went 8-13 in conference play, and 17-17 for the season and you think that that makes losing to them - TWICE - in spectacular fashion, once at home, okay? They didn't even make the NIT and you think they're not bad? Take off the blue colored glasses and join us in reality. Please.

[throwbackmuskie]

Big East won 75% of their noncon games.

But hey only 2 teams did that.

[throwbackmuskie]

Are you serious? I mean seriously. Are you serious? Their RPI is in the 120s, they went 8-13 in conference play, and 17-17 for the season and you think that that makes losing to them - TWICE - in spectacular fashion, once at home, okay? They didn't even make the NIT and you think they're not bad? Take off the blue colored glasses and join us in reality. Please.

I never said that losing to them wasn't bad, just not as bad as people want to make it out to be.

[casualfan]

Big East won 75% of their noncon games.

But hey only 2 teams did that.

Quick, name all the top 25 teams that included.

I'll wait...

[throwbackmuskie]

Quick, name all the top 25 teams that included.

I'll wait...

Kansas, VCU, Cincinnati and Mich St.

2 by Georgetown and 1 by Xavier.

[GoMuskies]

The Big East did a great job of scheduling teams that two good teams, six mediocre ones and two bad ones could beat.

[LadyMuskie]

I never said that losing to them wasn't bad, just not as bad as people want to make it out to be.

It really was that bad. We were one of the last teams in the field. Those losses to Seton Hall helped to cause that.

[throwbackmuskie]

The Big East did a great job of scheduling teams that two good teams, six mediocre ones and two bad ones could beat.

yes cause as my last post just showed those top two teams are the ones who beat all the top 25 teams, on netural courts BTW.

[throwbackmuskie]

It really was that bad. We were one of the last teams in the field. Those losses to Seton Hall helped to cause that.

Thats great, we still made it in, after not being projected as getting in to start the year.

[GoMuskies]

How is the Big East #4 in RPI? No terrible teams.

#5 ACC:
#157 Georgia Tech
#207 Boston College
#246 Virginia Tech

#6 A-10

#155 Rhode Island
#164 George Mason
#187 Duquesne
#226 Fordham

#7 SEC
#169 Auburn
#245 Mississippi State
(The SEC also had some serious mediocrity similar to the midde of the Big East with 9 teams ranked between #42 and #140)

#8 AAC
#143 Houston
#175 Temple
#192 Rutgers
#220 UCF
#232 USF

[GoMuskies]

yes cause as my last post just showed those top two teams are the ones who beat all the top 25 teams, on netural courts BTW.

And Xavier's and Georgetown's losses to Northeastern and USC?!?

[throwbackmuskie]

How is the Big East #4 in RPI? No terrible teams.

#5 ACC:
#157 Georgia Tech
#207 Boston College
#246 Virginia Tech

#6 A-10

#155 Rhode Island
#164 George Mason
#187 Duquesne
#226 Fordham

#7 SEC
#169 Auburn
#245 Mississippi State
(The SEC also had some serious mediocrity similar to the midde of the Big East with 9 teams ranked between #42 and #140)

#8 AAC
#143 Houston
#175 Temple
#192 Rutgers
#220 UCF
#232 USF

HMM, so what you are saying is it was more than just 2 teams?

[LadyMuskie]

Thats great, we still made it in, after not being projected as getting in to start the year.

Can we please stop with the overachieving bullshit? We're not dayton. How many teams that are ranked in the top 25 now, weren't in the preseason? Are they all overachieving as well? No. They're just playing good basketball.

[GoMuskies]

I think I've been pretty clear that six mediocre ones and 2 bad but not atrocious ones were key contributors as well.

[throwbackmuskie]

And Xavier's and Georgetown's losses to Northeastern and USC?!?

Bad losses happen, heck Dayton lost to Socal. It is a fact of life.

[throwbackmuskie]

Can we please stop with the overachieving bullshit? We're not dayton. How many teams that are ranked in the top 25 now, weren't in the preseason? Are they all overachieving as well? No. They're just playing good basketball.

I know the facts of how the season went don't help your argument.

[throwbackmuskie]

I think I've been pretty clear that six mediocre ones and 2 bad but not atrocious ones were key contributors as well.

So 6 of the teams were ranked in the top 69,pretty solid.

[GoMuskies]

So 6 of the teams were ranked in the top 69,pretty solid.

Yes, clearly the conference is solid. Full of mediocre teams. But no truly bad ones. And two really good ones.

[LadyMuskie]

I know the facts of how the season went don't help your argument.

I don't even know what you're saying here. You're making little to no sense. You can still be a fan and acknowledge that we're not very good and that we could have done much better had we tried at various points throughout the season.

[throwbackmuskie]

Yes, clearly the conference is solid. Full of mediocre teams. But no truly bad ones. And two really good ones.

your opinion

[GoMuskies]

your opinion

And the "opinion" of the RPI.

[LadyMuskie]

Yes, clearly the conference is solid. Full of mediocre teams. But no truly bad ones. And two really good ones.

Are you saying that the conference had 2 pretty good teams and the rest were just so-so, with no horrible teams? Why didn't you say that before?

[GoMuskies]

Thats great, we still made it in, after not being projected as getting in to start the year.

Ahem.

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/bracketology/_/iteration/160

[throwbackmuskie]

I don't even know what you're saying here. You're making little to no sense. You can still be a fan and acknowledge that we're not very good and that we could have done much better had we tried at various points throughout the season.

Lady look, they FACT is Xavier did better than expected, PLAIN and SIMPLE. 21 wins this year is a solid achievement. Not hard to understand. YES we let a few slip away, but at the end of the day X went to the NCAAs when no one expected them too.

[casualfan]

Can we please stop with the overachieving bullshit? We're not dayton. How many teams that are ranked in the top 25 now, weren't in the preseason? Are they all overachieving as well? No. They're just playing good basketball.

Totally agreed.

And beyond that I think people's expectations were affected by what type of player they thought Matt would be.

I thought he would be a nice role player, but there is no way I ever thought he'd be as good as he was this year. Had people known he would be as good as he was I think expectations would have been higher. I know they would have for me at least.

[IM4X]

Yep you get to be 4th best by being mediocre. I mean hell the 3rd ranked team beat the AAC's Champ.

Uh... What BE team beat Louisville?

[throwbackmuskie]

Ahem.

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/bracketology/_/iteration/160

yeah look again, X is not listed on the bracket and the last four in were the current last four in.

[GoMuskies]

Either way, I'm impressed that Lunardi had Cal-Poly vs. Texas Southern pegged as a play-in game. Bravo Joe.

[throwbackmuskie]

Yep you get to be 4th best by being mediocre. I mean hell the 3rd ranked team beat the AAC's Champ.

Uh... What BE team beat Louisville?

I guess someone didn't tell the AAC, since you know UC was the #1 seed

[GoMuskies]

[QUOTE=IM4X;441631]

I guess someone didn't tell the AAC, since you know UC was the #1 seed

They totally smoked Louisville in that coin flip.

[LadyMuskie]

Based on a quick perusal of that bracket from November, other teams that have overachieved this year based on their seed in the tourney now - UC, Florida, Wichita State, Arizona, Creighton, Wisconsin and Virginia. So, if Virginia, Arizona and Wichita State lose to their respective 16 seed opponents, it's all good because they overachieved just by being 1 seeds! Hurrah!

[throwbackmuskie]

[QUOTE=throwbackmuskie;441635]

They totally smoked Louisville in that coin flip.

So I guess finished a top of your conference, with or without someones doesn't make you the champ or at the every least co-champ?

[xsteve1]

Can we please stop with the overachieving bullshit? We're not dayton. How many teams that are ranked in the top 25 now, weren't in the preseason? Are they all overachieving as well? No. They're just playing good basketball.

Yes, this predicted 7th and finished 3rd has bothered me a lot. X had a chance to be a clear cut third but crapped the bed in familiar fashion all season. Last night put the capper on a season which was extremely frustrating.

[GoMuskies]

Are you saying that the conference had 2 pretty good teams and the rest were just so-so, with no horrible teams? Why didn't you say that before?

Ah, I see where i went wrong now. I will try to be clearer GOING FORWARD (take that paul!).

[throwbackmuskie]

Based on a quick perusal of that bracket from November, other teams that have overachieved this year based on their seed in the tourney now - UC, Florida, Wichita State, Arizona, Creighton, Wisconsin and Virginia. So, if Virginia, Arizona and Wichita State lose to their respective 16 seed opponents, it's all good because they overachieved just by being 1 seeds! Hurrah!

yeah let's take something to the extreme end of the spectrum.

[GoMuskies]

[QUOTE=GoMuskies;441636]

So I guess finished a top of your conference, with or without someones doesn't make you the champ or at the every least co-champ?

I would totally call us Big East champs in that situation. But F UC. Particularly since they got smoked by UConn in the Tournament...who in turn got smoked by Louisville.

[LadyMuskie]

yeah let's take something to the extreme end of the spectrum.

This is exactly what you're saying! How is it Xavier has one standard but the rest of the NCAA has another? You really need to take a step back and try to evaluate things while not being cloaked in all things Xavier.

[casualfan]

[QUOTE=throwbackmuskie;441638]

I would totally call us Big East champs in that situation. But F UC. Particularly since they got smoked by UConn in the Tournament...who in turn got smoked by Louisville.

I agree F UC, but they didn't get smoked by UCONN. They lost by 2.
to UCON

[throwbackmuskie]

This is exactly what you're saying! How is it Xavier has one standard but the rest of the NCAA has another? You really need to take a step back and try to evaluate things while not being cloaked in all things Xavier.

So the teams you picked were all picked to be in the field at the beginning of the year, Xavier was not. If they lose to 16 seeds then yes it would be a huge disappointment. For X who was not expected to be in and lose to a team ranked the same it really is not. At least pick something remotely close to compare.

[LadyMuskie]

So the teams you picked were all picked to be in the field at the beginning of the year, Xavier was not. If they lose to 16 seeds then yes it would be a huge disappointment. For X who was not expected to be in and lose to a team ranked the same it really is not. At least pick something remotely close to compare.

Listen, overachieving is overachieving. You don't get to define what determines overachieving. A team can either do better than projected (overachieving) or they can't (underachieving or on par). You're just changing the rules as you go to fit your argument.

Now which is it? Either all those teams overachieved (and some underachieved - Blue Devils, I'm looking at you!), including X, or they didn't. You can let me know.

[mistabeecee41]

I'm not worried about 1 down season in the Big East. 2 teams dominated this year while others had down years. They won the games they needed to win against the teams in the middle of the pack, while the teams in the middle of the pack beat up on each other. Throw in a couple of unexpected losses to the bottom dwellers, it just wasn't a good mix.

Next year, with Creighton likely taking a dive, It could help even out some of the records a bit. The Big 12 also played a 10 team conference round robin this year. 14-4 won it, 12-6 was 2nd. Throw in an extra win or 2 for some of the teams in the middle of our conference and we'll see completely different results.

Unless, of course, we takeover Creighton's spot as the 2nd big dog - then screw the middle of the pack teams (kidding... kinda).

[GoMuskies]

I agree F UC, but they didn't get smoked by UCONN. They lost by 2.
to UCON

I cannot believe throwbackmuskie characterized the game that way, then. :smile:

[profson]

We are not the only fanbase that sees greener grass elsewhere. This is part of a rant from a St. John's poster on HLOH:

"I'm really hoping we just had a lot of busts in Sampson.... etc. Even Harrison who is our best shooter is only a volume shooter. ...

We need a true offensive big paint player like Stainbrook and a ...... THEN I think this is a tourney team."

Harrison was 1st team all BE (though not my cup of tea), Sampson was ROY last year. Love the Stainbrook envy in the course of trashing Obepka.

[The_Mack_Pack]

Stainbrook will only get into better shape over the offseason too, dude could be a freaking beast next season. Assuming Semaj returns and Jmart can find some consistency, we'll have 3 all conference starters with a very talented, albeit young and inexperienced, bench.

[throwbackmuskie]

Listen, overachieving is overachieving. You don't get to define what determines overachieving. A team can either do better than projected (overachieving) or they can't (underachieving or on par). You're just changing the rules as you go to fit your argument.

Now which is it? Either all those teams overachieved (and some underachieved - Blue Devils, I'm looking at you!), including X, or they didn't. You can let me know.

But you can "change the rules" . LOL what ever makes you feel better. Those teams were expected to make the tournament and play LOWER ranked teams. X was NOT projected to make it in and played a team ranked the SAME.

[GoMuskies]

I would check the "Meets Minimum Expectations" box on this season if filling out an evaluation form.

[Caveat]

Stainbrook will only get into better shape over the offseason too, dude could be a freaking beast next season. Assuming Semaj returns and Jmart can find some consistency, we'll have 3 all conference starters with a very talented, albeit young and inexperienced, bench.

OK. That's great.

But where is the change going to come on offense -- where the motions sets rarely generate open looks and, frequently, are just jogged through with no real purpose? What about outside shooting? Who is going to be the guy that can open up the interior game by knocking down 3 point shoots when the defenses collapse down low?

And what about defense? What is going to be done to address the glaring failure to step out and guard the 3 point line against teams with shooters? What about the now yearly issues with mental breakdowns on defense?

There are problems that are starting to run deep with the program.

[throwbackmuskie]

OK. That's great.

But where is the change going to come on offense -- where the motions sets rarely generate open looks and, frequently, are just jogged through with no real purpose? What about outside shooting? Who is going to be the guy that can open up the interior game by knocking down 3 point shoots when the defenses collapse down low?

And what about defense? What is going to be done to address the glaring failure to step out and guard the 3 point line against teams with shooters? What about the now yearly issues with mental breakdowns on defense?

There are problems that are starting to run deep with the program.

Well recruiting addressed the shooters need, at least on paper, we will see if it lives up to the billing.

I would like X to use the D that UVA uses.

[danaandvictory]

I would check the "Meets Minimum Expectations" box on this season if filling out an evaluation form.

It was a B- of a season.

[GoMuskies]

It was a B- of a season.

Feels more like a C+ after last night, but I could roll with B-.

[The_Mack_Pack]

Well recruiting addressed the shooters need, at least on paper, we will see if it lives up to the billing.

I would like X to use the D that UVA uses.

Virginia uses packline. They just have the right guys who fit their defensive rolls to a T. Xavier didn't have the right personnel this season. Travis Taylor is what made Xavier's D really tough last season, Philmore and Stainbrook were just too slow to recover off of hedges.

[American X]

http://www.theblaze.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/Tommy-Boy.png

D+? We PASSED!

[throwbackmuskie]

Virginia uses packline. They just have the right guys who fit their defensive rolls to a T. Xavier didn't have the right personnel this season. Travis Taylor is what made Xavier's D really tough last season, Philmore and Stainbrook were just too slow to recover off of hedges.

Right and with the packline we dont need to worry as much about hedges, correct?

[Masterofreality]

Ahem.

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/bracketology/_/iteration/160

Hey!!! We took SucKS place in the First Four by beating their ass by 17. Solid.

[Caveat]

Virginia uses packline. They just have the right guys who fit their defensive rolls to a T. Xavier didn't have the right personnel this season. Travis Taylor is what made Xavier's D really tough last season, Philmore and Stainbrook were just too slow to recover off of hedges.

Yup.

Xavier's packline d, far too often, wasn't played with the level of quickness required for it to be effective. Getting rid of Philmore and putting a more athletic 4 on the court should probably help, but the defensive intensity wasn't where it needed to be this year. Far too many guys got out of position or got caught ball-watching while their man leaked out for a wide open look.

[IM4X]

OK. That's great.

But where is the change going to come on offense -- where the motions sets rarely generate open looks and, frequently, are just jogged through with no real purpose? What about outside shooting? Who is going to be the guy that can open up the interior game by knocking down 3 point shoots when the defenses collapse down low?

And what about defense? What is going to be done to address the glaring failure to step out and guard the 3 point line against teams with shooters? What about the now yearly issues with mental breakdowns on defense?

There are problems that are starting to run deep with the program.

Great questions I've been wondering about too... Mack - you and your assistants reading this now that you all have some spare time on your hands?

[casualfan]

I would like X to use the D that UVA uses.

You the mean the pack-line defense? I'm pretty sure that's UVA runs anyway.

If that's what you are referring to that is the defense we run...

[throwbackmuskie]

You the mean the pack-line defense? I'm pretty sure that's UVA runs anyway.

If that's what you are referring to that is the defense we run...

We really don't run in in the sense that they do, their bigs don't hedge out, they pretty much stay down low. Also our guys extend deep past the 3 point line. UVA does not really do that.

[Masterofreality]

OK. That's great.

But where is the change going to come on offense -- where the motions sets rarely generate open looks and, frequently, are just jogged through with no real purpose? What about outside shooting? Who is going to be the guy that can open up the interior game by knocking down 3 point shoots when the defenses collapse down low?
.

Disagree about the sets not generating open looks. I can think of 10 wide ass open 3's last night and many other open shots. We were not good enough shooters to make them. These are the same sets that got open looks for Stan Burrell, BJ Raymond, Jordan Crawford,Dante Jackson, Tu Holloway, Mark Lyons, etc. Mack runs the same stuff as the Desert Raccoon. That's why there was so much pounding of the ball to the paint, because no one could be trusted to make an outside shot.

[Masterofreality]

Yup.

Xavier's packline d, far too often, wasn't played with the level of quickness required for it to be effective. Getting rid of Philmore and putting a more athletic 4 on the court should probably help, but the defensive intensity wasn't where it needed to be this year. Far too many guys got out of position or got caught ball-watching while their man leaked out for a wide open look.

I do agree with this though. A) For as valuable as Stain is , he doesn't rotate quickly and B) Sorry, but IPhillmore got caught numerous times arriving late. Finally Dee, for all of his effort, was easy to shoot over.

[Caveat]

I do agree with this though. A) For as valuable as Stain is , he doesn't rotate quickly and B) Sorry, but IPhillmore got caught numerous times arriving late. Finally Dee, for all of his effort, was easy to shoot over.

Last night's game emphasized why the biggest positive change from 13/14 to 14/15 will be getting Jalen Reynolds on the court over Philmore. Philmore struggles to score from anywhere other than right under the bucket (and the points he does score are aided, in large part, by fools-gold like clean-up plays that just about any big-man can and should make), he plays entirely below the rim on both ends of the floor, and he doesn't have the footspeed or athleticism to really change the game offensively or defensively.

He was caught ball-watching several times on defense -- and at least 2 or 3 times where he not only lost track of his man, but sat flat-footed while an offensive player came in to claim a rebound.

Guys like him (and Erik Stenger fits this mold as well) are great bench guys to have, but you can't have them giving you 20-25 minutes a game.

[XUFan09]

Actually, what I thought was the number one thing from last night was three-point shooting. Martin was off last night (probably partly due to the defense he had to do on Warren wearing him down), but Xavier has no other consistent three-point option. Dee basically hit for his average, going 1-3, but with Myles still not hitting, it's no surprise that next year's class includes four three-point shooters.

Sent from my DROID RAZR HD using Tapatalk

[Caveat]

I think it's hard to ignore the notion that Dee Davis saw way more minutes than the coaching staff anticipated (at the expense of Brandon Randolph) because he ended up being the only other real threat behind the arc other than Justin Martin.

[CinciX12]

Lady look, they FACT is Xavier did better than expected, PLAIN and SIMPLE. 21 wins this year is a solid achievement. Not hard to understand. YES we let a few slip away, but at the end of the day X went to the NCAAs when no one expected them too.

21 wins, 13 losses and a 12 seed is not acceptable. If you think it is then you are what is holding this program back.

[CinciX12]

I think it's hard to ignore the notion that Dee Davis saw way more minutes than the coaching staff anticipated (at the expense of Brandon Randolph) because he ended up being the only other real threat behind the arc other than Justin Martin.

Agree with that. I think we all hoped than Randolph would contribute much more than he did.

[BandAid]

21 wins, 13 losses and a 12 seed is not acceptable. If you think it is then you are what is holding this program back.

Ya! If you weren't around "throwbackmuskie" (if that's even your real name) we would've been at least a 10 seed. You Benedict Arnold - settling for a twelve seed...

[nokoolaid]

I think you are correct.
I think it's hard to ignore the notion that Dee Davis saw way more minutes than the coaching staff anticipated (at the expense of Brandon Randolph) because he ended up being the only other real threat behind the arc other than Justin Martin.

[nokoolaid]

Chris Mack is finally playing with the players he recruited,although most were recruited to play in the A-10 and we all can see how that has worked out. Actually he has performed much better than I expected when he was hired. Even though the results from last season and this season have not been up to Xavier standards,circumstances that Coach Mack had no power over had a hand in the results. As I see it,Chris Mack has finally had a very good recruiting class for next season and although I have never believed that he is THE GUY, I think it is a case of wait and see.

[bleedXblue]

Yes wait and see. There wil be a lot of waiting the next 6 months. We will wait on Semaj's decision. We will wait to see who possibly transfers. We will wait to see if Martin is coming back. We will wait to see who goes the prep school route if the prior two players mentioned do come back. Lots of waiting. Kinda sucks.
Better defense next year is the absolute key to getting back on track. It must be a defense first mentality from Mack and the team.

[xutag77]

I think we were a Myles Davis slump away from ending the season on a much better note. Somehow I think the long season wore him down and he getting abused in practice by Remy. No data, just observation.

Losing to Seton Hall the last 2 weeks of the season was no sin, just ask Villanova and Creigton, they lost to them also.

I think we will be good next year, possibly great, even if Samaj does not come back. We will have three seasoned seniors (Davis, Stainbrook, Martin) who will have the senior drive at the end of the year. The other 2 starters could be Reynolds and either Samaj or Remy. I am not discounting the freshman, but I can live with that starting lineup.

This is not the A10. Seton Hall has an excellent class coming in, Providence was crippled by injury and suspensions this year, Marquette needs just a point guard and St John and Georgetown are only crippled by their coaches.

[boozehound]

21 wins, 13 losses and a 12 seed is not acceptable. If you think it is then you are what is holding this program back.

This is without a doubt one of the dumbest things said on this board in recent history.

1. None of us are 'holding the program back'. That is an asinine thing to say.

2. I don't think anyone here is jumping for joy after this season, but let's not act like a 20-win season and an NCAA berth in what we all expected to be a down year is some type of catastrophic low.

People on this board are masters of revisionist history. Miller and Matta had their struggles too. Half you clowns wanted those guys gone at some point, now we have turned them in to the second coming of John Wooden. We will be fine.

[X-band '01]

This is not the A10. Seton Hall has an excellent class coming in, Providence was crippled by injury and suspensions this year, Marquette needs just a point guard and St John and Georgetown are only crippled by their coaches.

Marquette needs a head coach as well.

[RealDeal]

This is without a doubt one of the dumbest things said on this board in recent history.

1. None of us are 'holding the program back'. That is an asinine thing to say.

2. I don't think anyone here is jumping for joy after this season, but let's not act like a 20-win season and an NCAA berth in what we all expected to be a down year is some type of catastrophic low.

People on this board are masters of revisionist history. Miller and Matta had their struggles too. Half you clowns wanted those guys gone at some point, now we have turned them in to the second coming of John Wooden. We will be fine.

Perfect.

[Fireball]

Reading this thread tells me one thing. There are a lot of people who are unrealistic when it comes to this program. Would I like them to be awake every year without a down year, ever? Absolutely.

But, that is completely unrealistic. Last year, we lost our best 5 players from the previous year, including two of those which were unplanned. Include three that two recruits who we leaned on a fair amount this past year were declared ineligible, and the team still managed to be in the discussion for an NCAA bid very late in that year.

This year we recovered from that to make the Tournament. I don't like how the year ended either, but this year just making the dance was an accomplishment, and we're looking even better next year.

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk

[CinciX12]

This is without a doubt one of the dumbest things said on this board in recent history.

1. None of us are 'holding the program back'. That is an asinine thing to say.

2. I don't think anyone here is jumping for joy after this season, but let's not act like a 20-win season and an NCAA berth in what we all expected to be a down year is some type of catastrophic low.

People on this board are masters of revisionist history. Miller and Matta had their struggles too. Half you clowns wanted those guys gone at some point, now we have turned them in to the second coming of John Wooden. We will be fine.


Accepting mediocrity isn't a good thing in my book.

[The_Mack_Pack]

That's fine. Say what you want and you are all entitled to your opinion.

I'll be the one here next year at the same time trying to convince you all, yet again after another mediocre season, that the wheels are falling off the bus.

Enjoy the off-season and good luck convincing yourselves that 5 freshmen are going to right this ship.

Just curious, what do you think is going to "right the ship"? If it's not the talented freshman then what? No one is expecting them all to be super stars, in fact no one is expecting any of them to be anything more than a role player next season. Please let me know what will right the ship in your mind if bringing in talent for the future isn't the answer.

[CinciX12]

Just curious, what do you think is going to "right the ship"? If it's not the talented freshman then what? No one is expecting them all to be super stars, in fact no one is expecting any of them to be anything more than a role player next season. Please let me know what will right the ship in your mind if bringing in talent for the future isn't the answer.

You're not supposed to quote things as I have an automatic 5 min window to realize what I said was too harsh of a statement lol.

I do not see Mack developing them into the players that we need them to be to compete for conference titles and deep runs in the NCAA Tournament. I'm firmly in the camp of wanting Mack on the hot seat now rather than later, but I understand that I am an early one on that bandwagon.

[LadyMuskie]

Just curious, what do you think is going to "right the ship"? If it's not the talented freshman then what? No one is expecting them all to be super stars, in fact no one is expecting any of them to be anything more than a role player next season. Please let me know what will right the ship in your mind if bringing in talent for the future isn't the answer.

I'm pretty sure we can begin to right the ship in CinciX12's eyes by having everyone in their seats well before the National Anthem is sung. It really impresses recruits and those watching on television.

Sorry, X12, couldn't resist!

[CinciX12]

I'm pretty sure we can begin to right the ship in CinciX12's eyes by having everyone in their seats well before the National Anthem is sung. It really impresses recruits and those watching on television.

Sorry, X12, couldn't resist!

I'm just going to take that as evidence that you have come over to my side in the argument.

[DC Muskie]

Accepting mediocrity isn't a good thing in my book.

This program is anything but mediocre.

[LadyMuskie]

I'm just going to take that as evidence that you have come over to my side in the argument.

I hate to pile on, but you're just asking for more disappointment.

[throwbackmuskie]

21 wins, 13 losses and a 12 seed is not acceptable. If you think it is then you are what is holding this program back.

Damn it, I figured it was my fault. Sorry guys.

[Masterofreality]

This is without a doubt one of the dumbest things said on this board in recent history.

1. None of us are 'holding the program back'. That is an asinine thing to say.

2. I don't think anyone here is jumping for joy after this season, but let's not act like a 20-win season and an NCAA berth in what we all expected to be a down year is some type of catastrophic low.

People on this board are masters of revisionist history. Miller and Matta had their struggles too. Half you clowns wanted those guys gone at some point, now we have turned them in to the second coming of John Wooden. We will be fine.

Yes. There are other "Masters" on this board.

L......O......F-ing..L, Booze!

[Masterofreality]

Pretty sure there is probably at least one "Right the Ship" thread on every NCAA Tourney team's message board after they lose.

Hello, Iowa, Memphis, Colorado, SucKS, Dook, Syracuse, Kansas, UMass....................

[nuts4xu]

Accepting mediocrity isn't a good thing in my book.

How does a fan "not" accept mediocrity from a team? We don't have any choice but to accept it, it is what it is. We had a decent year, but some consider it mediocre.

So what is the right response to not accepting mediocrity? Do we burn down the campus? Do we fire the entire coaching staff?

I am not picking on cincix12, as others have considered the results of this season "unacceptable". How does a fan not accept what the team has given them? Stop going to games?

I sincerely do not understand what is expected from a person who feels we had a mediocre season.

[GoMuskies]

Lots of angry messageboard rants. ALL CAPS PREFERRED!

Burning down the campus is not required until Jimmy Carter streak is broken. At that point it would be time to re-boot the entire University.

[ForTUitous]

I can't be the only one absolutely giddy for next year? I mean REALLY giddy. I just believe next year's team will be able to match up with any team in the country. Next year X can throw a million different looks at a team, a coaches nightmare. At point you will either have a Senior PG or (if he stays) a Big East player of the year candidate. At the two will be either Remy or Semaj. The three will be your senior J Mart and Trevon a prolific scorer by all accounts. Your four will be Jalen an absolute freak athlete and then Staintrain at the five. I didnt even get into the incoming freshman class (other than trevon) and the returning then sophomores.
This team will be DEEP and LOADED. They need to be athletic they can slide JMart to the four and Reynolds to the five for stretches. They need to go big they can run Stain, Reynolds, Martin, Remy, and Semaj. X has always been most successful when they could come at you a bunch of different ways. One of the more successful regular season (Tu's Junior year) was stalled bc that team was a one trick pony.
The Big East looks to be down again next year. I think this team could make a run at winning that title and even go deep into march.

[Milhouse]

It could be worse. Creighton had a lottery pick, national player of the year and the team still couldn't do a thing as a unit. 2nd in the BE, 2nd in BE tournament. 3rd round loss. Literally the ONLY banner they will hang is Doug McDermott's jersey.

Think about that....kinda depressing really.

[Kahns Krazy]

Two full seasons of sub-par golf would be awesome. Strange language.

[X-band '01]

It could be worse. Creighton had a lottery pick, national player of the year and the team still couldn't do a thing as a unit. 2nd in the BE, 2nd in BE tournament. 3rd round loss. Literally the ONLY banner they will hang is Doug McDermott's jersey.

Think about that....kinda depressing really.

See Xavier, 2003. At least Maryland didn't blow out Xavier in that one.

[The_Mack_Pack]

Yeah, if we were Creighton or Butler we'd be in much deeper trouble. Bad seasons for us are still 17-18 wins. Bad seasons for them are below .500.. Creighton will probably be the cellar dweller next season.

[GoMuskies]

Yeah, if we were Creighton or Butler we'd be in much deeper trouble. Bad seasons for us are still 17-18 wins. Bad seasons for them are below .500.. Creighton will probably be the cellar dweller next season.

I guess it's good for Creighton that their last bad season was in 1996-97.

[X-band '01]

Why, is DePaul leaving the Big East?

[The_Mack_Pack]

DePaul will have more talent than Creighton next season, that can't really be disputed. Now, when you enter the Purnell factor into the equation then yeah maybe DePaul will finish in dead last again.

[MADXSTER]

So let me get this straight.......

1) Despite Xavier meeting the majority of fans minimum expectations, Mack still fell short(See minimum expectations thread)
2) Put up with Two Full Seasons of Sub-Par Basketball. What now? (Bash Mack Thread)
3) Think that Xavier should give Mack a raise (See Carousel Coaching Thread)

Damn I'm confused

[Masterofreality]

Interesting story on Gone-zaga's recent early exits.

FIRE Mark Few!!!!!!

Excerpt.

"Mixed in there, however, are more underachievements based on seed line than overachievements: a 2002 first round loss as a #6 seed; a 2004 round of 32 loss as a #2 seed; a 2005 round of 32 loss as a #3 seed; and most famously, last year’s round of 32 loss as a #1 seed. Only twice has Gonzaga outperformed its seed in the NCAA Tournament since 2001 — that took place in 2003 where they won one game as a #9 seed (note that the Zags also then gave #1 seed Arizona one hell of a game in the next round), and in 2011 when they won a single game as a #11 seed."

https://rushthecourt.net/2014/03/25/gonzaga-what-gives/?utm_campaign=twitter&utm_medium=twitter&utm_source=twitter

[Masterofreality]

Bump.

Thought I'd bring this back up. This was the chief post loss thread after NC State beat us in the Tournament last year.
Some posters were clairvoyant as to Creighton cellar dwelling and DePaul having more talent than them.

Sure was a lot different feeling at this year' send. Can't say that this year' sending was "subpar".

[paulxu]

So let me get this straight.......

1) Despite Xavier meeting the majority of fans minimum expectations, Mack still fell short(See minimum expectations thread)
2) Put up with Two Full Seasons of Sub-Par Basketball. What now? (Bash Mack Thread)
3) Think that Xavier should give Mack a raise (See Carousel Coaching Thread)

Damn I'm confused

We went with door #3.

[xu82]

We went with door #3.

Door #3 was a fine choice. Some of those people just might be smarter than some of our people.