Requiem of the Big East

[xubrew]

Interesting....

http://espnmediazone.com/us/press-releases/2014/02/espn-films-announces-next-30-30-documentary-requiem-big-east/

[StanleyOwnsYou]

I'm sure this will turn into a "The Big East was great for so long, and got too big for it's own good. Football caused it's demise and will never be the same" type of thing. I'm betting there will be little mention of the "New Big East" and maybe one mention of X. It is ESPN after all.

[GoMuskies]

A requiem is a mass for the dead, so I would say the title gives away that it's not going to shine a particularly positive light on the current Big East.

[Masterofreality]

I'm sure that ESPn will say nothing about their role in luring teams to jump from one league to another. :nah:

[Classof1985]

A requiem is a mass for the dead, so I would say the title gives away that it's not going to shine a particularly positive light on the current Big East.

If saying that the Big East in its former configuration, with Syracuse, UConn, Lousiville, Georgetown, Villanova winning 7 national titles in 30 years, along with 5 national runner-ups, along with all the other miscellaneous other final four appearances, plus Pitt, St. Johns, Cincinnati, Marquette, etc. being the greatest basketball conference ever is not positive for the current configuration, then I would expect you are right.

But I don't think the film will say much of anything about the current configuration, because when the film was made there really wasn't much to say. I would bet that the current configuration had played many games when the film was completed. It still hasn't. No way to reasonably compare the two conferences.

This configuration is going to be really good. Whether it will live up to the history of the "old" conference remains to be seen.

Football and ESPN killed the "old" Big East. I wonder if the film will say that.

[STL_XUfan]

A requiem is a mass for the dead, so I would say the title gives away that it's not going to shine a particularly positive light on the current Big East.

Media: I thought you were dead
Big East: Not Hardly
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-45YjbUD09Kw/TxdcAr4hLhI/AAAAAAAADeY/llL4vFNBpOA/s1600/Big+Jake+2.jpg

[wkrq59]

Reports of BE death are more than slightly exaggerated. Numerous commentators not influenced by ESPN have other opinions. Right now, it's best thing happened to Xavier. I said earlier in the season it was going to be a hard year and I didn't expect things to be this good. But as long as the nay sayers are with us, we'll always have Paris.

:guns::handshake::swordfight::laugh:

[XUGRAD80]

As has been pointed out elsewhere, the current BE had a very good winning percentage in its OOC games, including wins over many teams from the major conferences, and is ranked either 3rd or 4th among all the conferences (depending on whose rankings you use). On top of that, ESPN's own recruiting rankings have 5 of the current BE schools in its top 40, and only 3 of the former BE schools within that same top 40 ranking.

Much much to early to say how the conference will fare in the NCAA tourney, but I do believe that it will remain a conference with serious capability of producing a national champion basketball team. This current conference would never have come into existence without a commitment by all the schools to be the best they can possiblity be....to be national caliper BASKETBALL programs. These schools did not join to be on the football gravy train of TV money. It is a BASKETBALL conference. That's it bread and butter and the schools know it. It's not going to be enough for these schools to just remain "competitive", while sucking up football money. They know that how they are able to compete on the NATIONAL scene is going to determine the success of the conference. I believe that point of emphasis will make it a very successful conference in the NCAA tourney and against all comers, for years to come. These schools have gambled everything on doing just that. Failure is not an option because they have nothing else to fall back on.

[xubrew]

I have a lot of mixed feelings about this.

I believe Axl Rose calls his current band Guns N Roses. It's not Guns N Roses, though. They're probably still a good band, but you almost wish they would just move on and call it something else.

I really love this league. I wish we wouldn't have called it the Big East. I know I'm probably the only person on here that feels that way, but it's not the classic Big East lineup, and I felt that if we tried to say that it was, fans and media would say the kinds of things that they're saying now. Instead of saying it's a new league that's good and exciting, they're saying that the league is not really the Big East. There are pieces of it, but it's not the same.

FWIW, I never thought of Louisville, DePaul, Marquette and UC as being classic Big East teams either, but I guess since so much of the classic Big East was still there, (Cuse v GTown, Pitt v WVU, Cuse v UConn, Nova v Georgetown, etc) it still felt enough like the classic Big East for people to accept it as the Big East. With it's current lineup, no one feels that it's the Big East anymore. Had we called it the Continental Athletic Conference, or the Big City Conference, or the Eastern Athletic Conference, or whatever cheesy name we could have come up with, I think peoples opinion of the league would actually be better. They wouldn't feel the need to continuously (and as much as I hate to say it, correctly) point out that it's not the classic Big East.

No one feels the need to point out that Velvet Revolver is not Guns N Roses.

[Masterofreality]

I have a lot of mixed feelings about this.

No one feels the need to point out that Velvet Revolver is not Guns N Roses.

Only that Slash played in each band.

[xsteve1]

Obviously ESPN is either basically ignoring the league or taking shots at it, I'm sure if they had the games things would be much brighter from them. Heck I don't think Vitale has even tweeted anything about McDermott all year. Having Marquette and Georgetown and even Butler as having disappointing seasons hasn't helped. X needs to get their act together as well and be a mainstay in the Top 25 for this league to start getting the respect it wants and deserves.

[xubrew]

Only that Slash played in each band.

Matt Sorum and Duff McKagan were in both bands as well. In fact Velvet has more classic GNR members than GNR currently has.

Georgetown, Providence and Seton Hall were in both conferences, but it's not the same conference. I don't think we do ourselves any favors by insinuating that this is a continuation of the classic Big East. For the next five years (at least) people will look at it as a failed facsimile. Even if it were to become the #1 rated conference, people still won't think of it as a continuation of the old Big East. I think we would have been better off creating a new identity and building an entirely new tradition. That's hard to do when the first thing anyone will say is that it's not the old Big East.

[BMoreX]

Xavier Basketball ‏@VictoryParkway 43s

Updated conference rankings from @kenpomeroy pic.twitter.com/gHyc6BvOCy

Big East 3rd.

[Masterofreality]

Georgetown, Providence and Seton Hall were in both conferences, but it's not the same conference. I don't think we do ourselves any favors by insinuating that this is a continuation of the classic Big East. For the next five years (at least) people will look at it as a failed facsimile.

Ken Pomeroy disagrees with your premise.

In a previous world, “BCS conference” became synonymous with “power conference”, but now, that’s just sloppy. Despite the lack of football-playing schools, there’s really not much difference at all between the old and new Big East, at least if you evaluate the conference from top to bottom. Here’s a look at the old vs. new using this season’s ratings."

http://kenpom.com/blog/index.php/weblog/entry/the_new_big_east_by_the_numbers

[xubrew]

Ken Pomeroy disagrees with your premise.

In a previous world, “BCS conference” became synonymous with “power conference”, but now, that’s just sloppy. Despite the lack of football-playing schools, there’s really not much difference at all between the old and new Big East, at least if you evaluate the conference from top to bottom. Here’s a look at the old vs. new using this season’s ratings."

http://kenpom.com/blog/index.php/weblog/entry/the_new_big_east_by_the_numbers


How does Ken Pomeroy disagree with my premise??

My premise is not that the average offensive and defensive efficiency ratings are drastically different. My premise is that since the make up of the league is different that no one will look at this as a continuation of the old Big East. Even if the conference were the top rated conference several years in a row, people will say it's not the old Big East.

Why was it so important that we call the league the Big East, and basically try become a continuation of what it was before?? Why not just start our own new league with a new identity?? The efficiency ratings wouldn't be any different if we called it the Big City Conference, or the Eastern Athletic Conference. The only difference is that people would likely look at the league as being a new and exciting collection of teams instead of looking at it like a bunch of teams who got together and tried to act like they were the same thing as the classic Big East.

[waggy]

I'd say it's a continuation... a continuation of the original premise, or possibly a return its roots. The core idea of what the conference originally intended to be is still there.

Besides, ESPN is not going to pimp the Big East no matter what the name is.

Honestly ESPN is just throwing shit against the wall in all things. I see stories that support both sides, and then that of a manufactured issue. I go there for scores, but I rarely read their bs.

Caring about the name of a conference seems like a manufactured issue to me. It's whiskey under the bridge at this point anyway, and it's not going to determine if the conference is successful in the least.

[Masterofreality]

How does Ken Pomeroy disagree with my premise??

My premise is not that the average offensive and defensive efficiency ratings are drastically different. My premise is that since the make up of the league is different that no one will look at this as a continuation of the old Big East. Even if the conference were the top rated conference several years in a row, people will say it's not the old Big East.

Why was it so important that we call the league the Big East, and basically try become a continuation of what it was before?? Why not just start our own new league with a new identity?? The efficiency ratings wouldn't be any different if we called it the Big City Conference, or the Eastern Athletic Conference. The only difference is that people would likely look at the league as being a new and exciting collection of teams instead of looking at it like a bunch of teams who got together and tried to act like they were the same thing as the classic Big East.

Because it's a recognize able name that is easy to market. The biggest "mourner" that the old Big East is gone is ESPN, because they lost their Madison Square Garden connection.

I would argue that with original members like St. Johns, Villanova, Georgetown, Providence and Seton Hall- 5 out of the 10- continuing the name made sense. Like someone used the "Guns N Roses" example before, I would also throw in "Chicago". Names mean something and it's not as effective if the name is changed from "Chicago" to "Windy City". That's why music groups keep the name, Cleveland fought hard to keep the Browns name, and the Big East fought hard to keep the name, logo and venue- the real identity. No body I know of is thinking that the American is "new and exciting".

ESPN is propping the AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAC and taking every shot they can at the BE. I've said they would all along. This is one more example. It's probably a legitimate story to tell about the intrigue surrounding conference realignment, but the way they are promoting and naming the show is pretty transparent as to their intent.

[Michigan Muskie]

I understand your point Brew, but the Big East is a brand that has value. Think of it like Circuit City or Hostess. Or JK's Chili in Madeira. All of these brands were retained even though the current product is nothing but a shell of its original. At least the Big East still maintains a good portion of its roots, so holding onto that brand makes even more sense than those defunct businesses.

And I think even you would agree that such brand awareness will influence recruiting. Why attempt to re-brand what is historically recognized as a basketball power?

[xubrew]

Because it's a recognize able name that is easy to market. The biggest "mourner" that the old Big East is gone is ESPN, because they lost their Madison Square Garden connection.

I would argue that with original members like St. Johns, Villanova, Georgetown, Providence and Seton Hall- 5 out of the 10- continuing the name made sense. Like someone used the "Guns N Roses" example before, I would also throw in "Chicago". Names mean something and it's not as effective if the name is changed from "Chicago" to "Windy City". That's why music groups keep the name, Cleveland fought hard to keep the Browns name, and the Big East fought hard to keep the name, logo and venue- the real identity. No body I know of is thinking that the American is "new and exciting".

ESPN is propping the AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAC and taking every shot they can at the BE. I've said they would all along. This is one more example. It's probably a legitimate story to tell about the intrigue surrounding conference realignment, but the way they are promoting and naming the show is pretty transparent as to their intent.

I think everyone who is a fan of a team that's currently in the Big East agrees with this entirely. I also think they're the only ones that do.

I don't live in the Big East footprint, and just about everyone thinks of it as being a wannabe league, and they don't feel that way because of what they see on ESPN. When they see this lineup using the Big East name, they scoff at it. They don't look at it as being a new and exciting league with a new and exciting line up.

So long as the teams are good, I'm not one to spend a whole lot of time caring about what others think. But, if you do care about what others think, this is what they think. Calling it the Big East makes us look like a bunch of wannabes instead of looking like a new and exciting collection of teams.

Michigan Muskie makes an interesting point about recruiting. But, again, the reason you rebrand something that is recognized as a historical basketball power is to avoid being currently recognized as a wannabe historic basketball power. I don't know if that makes much difference to 16 year old kids, but just about everyone I know who either follows college sports or works closely with college sports who isn't associated with the Big East feels that way. Just sayin...

[GoMuskies]

Sounds like the people you hang around with are assholes.

[xubrew]

Sounds like the people you hang around with are assholes.

If you think that's what they sound like, then you should see what they look like.

[XUGRAD80]

There will come a day, in the not to distant future I think, when the sports "talking heads" will say....." this is not your dad's Big East, but it's every bit as good as your dad's was"

Keep in mind that when they current BE lost the Syacuse, Louisville, and UConn programs, they ALSO got rid of the South Florida, Rutgers, and UC programs that had historically been at the bottom of the BE standings. ( yes, I know that UC was in the championship game last year, but for the first 6 years of membership in the BE they fared very poorly ). This had left the conference with great parity, and I think the performance the teams put on in the NCAA and NiT tourneys will bear out the quality of the teams in top 2/3rds of the current configuration. That quality will only continue to improve as there is an influx of new talent coming into the league next year. I would also expect that at least two more QUALITY programs ( sorry Dayton )are brought into the league over the next year or two, which will only increase the footprint this league has in the world of college basketsball in the future.

[xubrew]

There will come a day, in the not to distant future I think, when the sports "talking heads" will say....." this is not your dad's Big East, but it's every bit as good as your dad's was"

Keep in mind that when they current BE lost the Syacuse, Louisville, and UConn programs, they ALSO got rid of the South Florida, Rutgers, and UC programs that had historically been at the bottom of the BE standings. ( yes, I know that UC was in the championship game last year, but for the first 6 years of membership in the BE they fared very poorly ). This had left the conference with great parity, and I think the performance the teams put on in the NCAA and NiT tourneys will bear out the quality of the teams in top 2/3rds of the current configuration. That quality will only continue to improve as there is an influx of new talent coming into the league next year. I would also expect that at least two more QUALITY programs ( sorry Dayton )are brought into the league over the next year or two, which will only increase the footprint this league has in the world of college basketsball in the future.

I don't seem to be getting my point across. I'm not picking on you. I'm just trying to figure out how to better explain it.

Do you think that anything that you listed above would have been unable to occur had we not called the conference the Big East?? I personally would rather not have people saying "This isn't you're daddy's Big East." I'd rather not have them even mentioning the old Big East. Whenever they do, they seem to be talking about what we aren't instead of what we are.

We're not the old Big East, and I'm totally fine with that. I don't know why it's so important to carry on something that we were never part of in the first place. Most of the teams weren't. I really don't consider Marquette and DePaul to be classic Big East teams either. We have pieces of the old Big East, but not all of it. I'd rather have all of something new and exciting than part of something that's fragmented. That's how we're looked at.

It's kind of funny, but I now feel the way that so many people around here felt for so many years. Screw the old Big East. I have a huge appreciation for it, but I don't feel the need to try and substantiate that what we have now is the same as what it was before. We're not the old Big East. We're our own thing. I'd rather be viewed as having our own thing than viewed as a fragmented and failed facsimile of something that is gone forever, and that we were never a part of.

[XUGRAD80]

I understand your point, and your question seems to be...."why keep the NAME, Big East?". Is that correct?

The reasons are simple.......first, if this group did not, then the teams currently in the AAC probably would have. 2nd...there is a value to a "brand". The brand itself carries some value because of name recognition. That value may well be seen in the recruiting success that the current BE teams have had this past year. It is also seen in the monetary value of the advertising and branding of the name. It is a matter of perception. Just compare the value of the name Big East vs. the value of the name American Athletic Conference (AAC). Combine that with the TV package and the ability to use MSG for the league tourney and the value of the NAME just continues to rise. It's all about name value and recognition. As a recruiter, one can walk into a gym and talks with a coach or player and not have to explain who or what your league is. They may not realize that Syracuse is no longer in the BE, but the still recognize the BE name. The same is true when trying to get advertising or sponsorship money. The person you are talking with will probably have heard the name Big East, even if they do not know who is still a member. That makes it easier to get them interested in spending their money to support you. From a BUSINESS standpoint, keeping the BE name vs trying to establish a new name is a no brainer.

[GoMuskies]

I cannot think of a new conference name in the past 20 years that I didn't think was incredibly stupid. Summit? A-Sun? Horizon? AAC? C-USA? Mountain West? (okay, that may be the only one I don't mind)

[xubrew]

I cannot think of a new conference name in the past 20 years that I didn't think was incredibly stupid. Summit? A-Sun? Horizon? AAC? C-USA? Mountain West? (okay, that may be the only one I don't mind)

Don't forget the Great West, which featured NJIT.

[GoMuskies]

Making it neither Great nor West, amirite?

[paulxu]

All of this gets fixed when we get a team(s) into the FF and win one.
All of it.

[GoMuskies]

All of this gets fixed when we get a team(s) into the FF and win one.
All of it.

It fixes the fact that NJIT was in the Great West? I suppose that was taken care of when the Great West folded and poor NJIT became the lone NCAA Division I independent (cue MHettel).

[PM Thor]

All of this gets fixed when we get a team(s) into the FF and win one.
All of it.

IF the Big East gets 2 in the Elite 8, I think that would be enough. And honestly, I think that's going to happen.

EDIT. And the NConf-USA flames out, which I too think will happen except for Louisville.

[mistabeecee41]

Anyone else watch tonight? Fantastic for the most part. The ending? You'd think ESPN hired Joseph Goebbels.

[drudy23]

I saw the second half...it was good, but Boeheim is still an arrogant prick.

[SM#24]

I liked it. Focus was entirely on the early 9 team league. People can argue all they want over whether the Big East is dead or not (and I can certainly understand the dead viewpoint due to Syr leaving) but the current configuration fits the original intent of the league.

[Masterofreality]

I liked it. Focus was entirely on the early 9 team league. People can argue all they want over whether the Big East is dead or not (and I can certainly understand the dead viewpoint due to Syr leaving) but the current configuration fits the original intent of the league.

What? Wait? There was no mention or emphasis on SucKS epic 8 year participation in the Big East? They are so part of the pomp, lore and history.

Like the Big East Tourney- 1 and done in 2006. Like not even making New York after a 2-14 in 2007. Like the 1 and done in 2008 and sub .500 record. Like that epic first round loss to DePaul in 2009. Like their bitter loss to their former DUI convicted coach in 2010. Like an epic 38 point blowout loss to Notre Dame in 2011. Like scoring all of 44 points in one of the worst championship games ever played in 2012. Like a 19 point 2nd round blowout loss to Georgetown in 2013.

No celebrating of THAT history? Oh, the humanity!!!!!!!!!!

[X-band '01]

Not really a mention of UC, but they did play the Gnome's quote from last year saying how awful it was that the Big East was breaking up.

Mind you, this was coming from a guy whose school only got in to the Big East to keep it alive for football. I'm sure he won't have a problem if the Big 12 comes calling for UC and the ACC makes peace with UConn and invites them.

[X-band '01]

I liked it. Focus was entirely on the early 9 team league. People can argue all they want over whether the Big East is dead or not (and I can certainly understand the dead viewpoint due to Syr leaving) but the current configuration fits the original intent of the league.

Your last point wasn't even highlighted on the commentary at all; it seemed almost like a 2-hour infomercial for Syracuse, Georgetown, St. John's and Villanova. Maybe we'll see if they do a Requiem for the ACC in 10-15 years when we revisit the realignment/relegation circus.

And here's another tidbit about the depth of the league that wasn't even highlighted at all: UConn finished DEAD LAST in the league for the 1987-88 season and still managed to win the NIT that year. That is a deep league right there.

[wkrq59]

It was as they used to sayin my former business, "A good read." But that's the only thing good about it. It was similar to people who always yearn for the "Good old days," but they forget about the cripiling diseases, the numerous instances of social injustice that while they still exist in some form or other still aren't as bad and all the other disadvantages. For many years on both these boards I have read that Xavier must get into the Big East somehow, and now the second guessers have something else to bitch about this new conference. In the Big East there are no Frdhams, LaSalles or St. Bonaventures (pre-Mark Schmidt). There is no need to expand for many years and Xavier's basketball future certainly looks bright. Now let's go Muskies and kick Wolfpack asses.

[xubrew]

What? Wait? There was no mention or emphasis on SucKS epic 8 year participation in the Big East? They are so part of the pomp, lore and history.

Nope. It actually took the point of view that the Big East wasn't nearly as special as its original format when they went out to sixteen teams, and I agree. This didn't make the show, but a lot of Big East purists felt that the Louisville vs Cincinnati final that was played in front of 13k instead of a packed house wasn't really a Big East final.


Your last point wasn't even highlighted on the commentary at all; it seemed almost like a 2-hour infomercial for Syracuse, Georgetown, St. John's and Villanova. Maybe we'll see if they do a Requiem for the ACC in 10-15 years when we revisit the realignment/relegation circus.

Like the Big East with sixteen teams, several of which weren't really Big East teams (UC, DePaul, Marquette, etc) the ACC at 14 teams, many of which aren't really ACC teams, isn't nearly as special as it once was.

[SlimKibbles]

After seeing the very beginning with Bilas, playing the gnome's quote, etc., I was mentally going through things I could send to ESPN's 30 for 30 FB or Twitter accounts to blast them, but the show turned out to be great. I knew some of that stuff already but I learned more new things than not. Very well done program. And, I get why it isn't the same. Was nice that they threw in the blurb right before the credits about the 7 Catholic schools leaving, with money left on the table, to form their own basketball league with the Big East name - in the same spirit in which it was original founded.

[Masterofreality]

Nope. It actually took the point of view that the Big East wasn't nearly as special as its original format when they went out to sixteen teams, and I agree. This didn't make the show, but a lot of Big East purists felt that the Louisville vs Cincinnati final that was played in front of 13k instead of a packed house wasn't really a Big East final.
.

interesting point. 13,000 huh? So, the Tournament didn't always sell out. 15,280 for Cteighton/Providence Saturday night. And LOUD.

Almost really makes it fitting..and takes it full circle, that the First Big East Tournament since the restructure featured a Providence win- the same Providence where founder Dave Gavitt came from. A new beginning from the source...very true.

[xubrew]

It was probably sold out months in advance. the purists just refused to go.

[Xman95]

Your last point wasn't even highlighted on the commentary at all; it seemed almost like a 2-hour infomercial for Syracuse, Georgetown, St. John's and Villanova. Maybe we'll see if they do a Requiem for the ACC in 10-15 years when we revisit the realignment/relegation circus.

And three of those four are still in the Big East. Go figure.

[SlimKibbles]

I thought it was funny how ESPN did this program and basically bashed football to a degree for destroying the Big East. Yet they helped facilitate it and now they want the ACC, which is doing the same thing the original Big East did and add teams for football, to have their tournament in New York too.

[xu82]

All of this gets fixed when we get a team(s) into the FF and win one.
All of it.

No time like the present.

[Masterofreality]

It was probably sold out months in advance. the purists just refused to go.

Hmmm. Then why didn't they announce a sell out? It's always tickets sold. Always.

[xubrew]

I thought it was funny how ESPN did this program and basically bashed football to a degree for destroying the Big East. Yet they helped facilitate it and now they want the ACC, which is doing the same thing the original Big East did and add teams for football, to have their tournament in New York too.

The guy that made the movie doesn't actually work for ESPN. I don't know if he works for HBO or not, but I've never seen any of his movies anywhere else. He's made several of their Sports in the 20th Century documentaries. He made a really good one about the Brooklyn Dodgers which followed their history and the time they left Brooklyn, and he made another one about Bird and Magic

ESPN just aired this movie. If they hadn't, then HBO probably would have.

I think everyone that actually watched it would agree with me, but it was not meant to slam the current Big East at all. It just told the story of its inception, how it grew into what it was, and then how it changed. I thought it was really good. It didn't blast the new league at all. It kind of took the approach that even at the end of the sixteen team format, it wasn't really the classic Big East anymore. He even said that ESPN was one of the things that drove it apart.

You could easily make a film called Requiem of College Basketball. The Big Eight is gone. The ACC is still there, but not in its classic format. Same with the Metro. Same with a lot of it. You used to have single division conferences of eight or nine teams that were all regional and traditional rivals. They all played twice a year, and they all played a tournament after that. To have Kansas, Missouri, Kansas State, Nebraska and Iowa State all in the same building for Championship Week was awesome. Same with all of those Big East rivals. Same with ACC. The NCAA Tournament implications were a part of it, but it was almost secondary. It used to seem like winning the ACC or the Big Eight or the Big East was it's own entity and reward. Teams wanted to win the league championship, and they wanted to beat the teams they hated to do it. I think that we've lost a lot of that.

Championship Week is still great. College basketball is still great, but it isn't the same with a lot of the old rivalries being gone. He just happened to focus on the Big East, but it could have easily been about all of college hoops. The Dodgers have left Brooklyn (figuratively speaking). That's what I really took away from it.

[xubrew]

Hmmm. Then why didn't they announce a sell out? It's always tickets sold. Always.



There are three ways you're allowed to count attendance. One is a turn style count, one is tickets sold, and the other is to estimate (which I think is hilarious, but is actually allowed).

[Masterofreality]

There are three ways you're allowed to count attendance. One is a turn style count, one is tickets sold, and the other is to estimate (which I think is hilarious, but is actually allowed).

I agree, but I have never, ever seen any organization, especially one as image conscious as the Big East has been, use anything other than the highest possible count. It was always passed off by the four letter network that MSG was sold out for the Tournament. I guess not.

So, this year's final, with only 10 teams in the league, drew 15,300. That final with 16 teams in the league, drew 13,000. Yep. Got it.

[xubrew]

Well, keep in mind what kind of image they're image conscious about. Big East purists never thought of Louisville and Cincinnati as being actual Big East teams.

[casualfan]

Hmmm. Then why didn't they announce a sell out? It's always tickets sold. Always.

Where are you seeing that it wasn't a "sellout".

All the box scores I have seen had the attendance for that game at 20k-plus.

[paulxu]

http://scores.espn.go.com/ncb/boxscore?gameId=400546628

http://scores.espn.go.com/ncb/boxscore?gameId=400546633

[chico]

http://scores.espn.go.com/ncb/boxscore?gameId=400546628

http://scores.espn.go.com/ncb/boxscore?gameId=400546633

Paul are you sure you want to get involved. After all, we're talking about Gate receipts.

[paulxu]

You want box scores?

I've got your damn box scores. (no G)

[Masterofreality]

Nope. It actually took the point of view that the Big East wasn't nearly as special as its original format when they went out to sixteen teams, and I agree. This didn't make the show, but a lot of Big East purists felt that the Louisville vs Cincinnati final that was played in front of 13k instead of a packed house wasn't really a Big East final..


http://scores.espn.go.com/ncb/boxscore?gameId=400546628

http://scores.espn.go.com/ncb/boxscore?gameId=400546633

Guys, we're talking about a Big East final from a couple of years ago vs this years. Not the AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAC.

[Flyers forever]

Karma hit Xavier last night. They blackballed dayton out of the big east and then got blown out at UD Arena. Even though I've been a UD fan for 60 years, I also liked Xavier. UD and Xavier were like brothers. Then out came the knife in the back. Xavier , choke on the big east. Have a nice spring. Both Ud men and women are still playing big time basketball. I hope UD stays in the A10. We will play Xavier somewhere down the road. They can't hide forever.

[XUBand]

Karma hit Xavier last night. They blackballed dayton out of the big east and then got blown out at UD Arena. Even though I've been a UD fan for 60 years, I also liked Xavier. UD and Xavier were like brothers. Then out came the knife in the back. Xavier , choke on the big east. Have a nice spring. Both Ud men and women are still playing big time basketball. I hope UD stays in the A10. We will play Xavier somewhere down the road. They can't hide forever.

I would hardly call it a knife in the back. From your perspective, what does UD add to the Big East that isn't already there? Also, if you think OSU is losing in the first round you might want to be careful in your prediction. OSU has only been put out three times in the first round in the NCAA since 1939.

[casualfan]

Guys, we're talking about a Big East final from a couple of years ago vs this years. Not the AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAC.

Yep. And here is that box score (http://espn.go.com/ncb/boxscore?gameId=320702132)

[chico]

Karma hit Xavier last night. They blackballed dayton out of the big east and then got blown out at UD Arena. Even though I've been a UD fan for 60 years, I also liked Xavier. UD and Xavier were like brothers. Then out came the knife in the back. Xavier , choke on the big east. Have a nice spring. Both Ud men and women are still playing big time basketball. I hope UD stays in the A10. We will play Xavier somewhere down the road. They can't hide forever.

Really, you fucking moron? Does the Great Midwest ring a bell? Attached at the hip and all that great stuff? Go the fuck back into your little hell hole of a dying town and kiss my ass. Your program is third rate at best, you consistently pick the wrong assistant coach to be your head coach, and you live in the 60's when you had some semblance of a program. Have fun piddling yourselves in the A-10, which but the way, you wouldn't even be in if it weren't for us. We've moved past you and you're nothing but a fleeting memory in our rear view mirror.

[XUBand]

Karma hit Xavier last night. They blackballed dayton out of the big east and then got blown out at UD Arena. Even though I've been a UD fan for 60 years, I also liked Xavier. UD and Xavier were like brothers. Then out came the knife in the back. Xavier , choke on the big east. Have a nice spring. Both Ud men and women are still playing big time basketball. I hope UD stays in the A10. We will play Xavier somewhere down the road. They can't hide forever.

By the way your arena is a fucking cesspit. First and last time I will EVER be there.

[danaandvictory]

Karma hit Xavier last night. They blackballed dayton out of the big east and then got blown out at UD Arena. Even though I've been a UD fan for 60 years, I also liked Xavier. UD and Xavier were like brothers. Then out came the knife in the back. Xavier , choke on the big east. Have a nice spring. Both Ud men and women are still playing big time basketball. I hope UD stays in the A10. We will play Xavier somewhere down the road. They can't hide forever.

You can't be serious.

[Masterofreality]

Karma hit Xavier last night. They blackballed dayton out of the big east and then got blown out at UD Arena. Even though I've been a UD fan for 60 years, I also liked Xavier. UD and Xavier were like brothers. Then out came the knife in the back. Xavier , choke on the big east. Have a nice spring. Both Ud men and women are still playing big time basketball. I hope UD stays in the A10. We will play Xavier somewhere down the road. They can't hide forever.

What? "Blackballed the dump out of the Big East? Your crappy program blackballed ITSELF out of the Big East. Those 2 NCAA wins in the last 30 years are verrrrrrrrrrrry impressive to anyone who is not a Neanderthal. You bring NOTHING to the table other than a cretin fan base full of bloated, fat ass blue hairs in red sweater vests and a sludge filled commode of an arena. Just STFU.

And as for "black balling". How soon some forget how the Cryers left the MCC and Xavier in the dust in 1993 for the "Great Midwest". Then when they were an abject fail for 3 years and weren't invited to join Conference USA with DePaul, Marquette and others, Xavier actually came to their rescue and recommended that they be allowed to join the Atlantic 10. If not for that, you would have wound up back in the Horizon League of the Missouri Valley. In other words, Xavier saved what was left of your moribund program.

From Wikipedia:
"In 1995 six of the schools in the Great Midwest (with the exception of Dayton) joined with UNC Charlotte, Louisville, Southern Mississippi, Tulane, and South Florida of the Metro and Houston of the dissolving Southwest Conference and formed Conference USA."

Nothing like revisionist history seen through the eyes of jealousy.

[xubrew]

Karma hit Xavier last night. They blackballed dayton out of the big east and then got blown out at UD Arena. Even though I've been a UD fan for 60 years, I also liked Xavier. UD and Xavier were like brothers. Then out came the knife in the back. Xavier , choke on the big east. Have a nice spring. Both Ud men and women are still playing big time basketball. I hope UD stays in the A10. We will play Xavier somewhere down the road. They can't hide forever.

UD is staying in the Atlantic Ten, so you're getting your wish.

UD is about to play what is clearly their biggest game in five years, and arguably one of their two or three biggest games in the last quarter century, and this dumbass is over here gloating about a game that had absolutely nothing to do with UD. You are truly an overly obsessive allotment of idiots. The true definition of a loser is someone who roots against a team because they don't have a team of their own to root for. 95% of the time, that is the NCAA Tournament experience of the UD fan. Their team was never there, so they just rooted against another team in Xavier.

I don't know what you call someone that roots against a team even when they do have a team to root for, but that's what this sack of donkey shit is doing.

I actually like Dayton's program, and have made some friends with people who have been a part of it (As has Chris Mack). But, the fans are beyond stupid. Wright State's season is over as well. I'm sure they're gloating about that too.

[xsteve1]

UD is staying in the Atlantic Ten, so you're getting your wish.

UD is about to play what is clearly their biggest game in five years, and arguably one of their two or three biggest games in the last quarter century, and this dumbass is over here gloating about a game that had absolutely nothing to do with UD. You are truly an overly obsessive allotment of idiots. The true definition of a loser is someone who roots against a team because they don't have a team of their own to root for. 95% of the time, that is the NCAA Tournament experience of the UD fan. Their team was never there, so they just rooted against another team in Xavier.

I don't know what you call someone that roots against a team even when they do have a team to root for, but that's what this sack of donkey shit is doing.

I actually like Dayton's program, and have made some friends with people who have been a part of it (As has Chris Mack). But, the fans are beyond stupid. Wright State's season is over as well. I'm sure they're gloating about that too.

Actually Wright St. is still playing. I can't believe you missed that.

[xubrew]

Actually Wright St. is still playing. I can't believe you missed that.

Good call. UD fans are probably still gloating about it, and if they win the tournament, they'll go to great lengths to point out what a small time tournament it was. It's another team they're obsessed with, but have nothing to do with.

[Cheesehead]

"Karma hit Xavier last night. They blackballed dayton out of the big east and then got blown out at UD Arena. Even though I've been a UD fan for 60 years, I also liked Xavier. UD and Xavier were like brothers. Then out came the knife in the back. Xavier , choke on the big east. Have a nice spring. Both Ud men and women are still playing big time basketball. I hope UD stays in the A10. We will play Xavier somewhere down the road. They can't hide forever. "

Dumbest post of the year.

"true definition of a loser is someone who roots against a team because they don't have a team of their own to root for. 95% of the time, that is the NCAA Tournament experience of the UD fan. Their team was never there, so they just rooted against another team in Xavier." --This is spot on and there were a lot of losers in the dump last night. #getalife

[LadyMuskie]

Karma hit Xavier last night. They blackballed dayton out of the big east and then got blown out at UD Arena. Even though I've been a UD fan for 60 years, I also liked Xavier. UD and Xavier were like brothers. Then out came the knife in the back. Xavier , choke on the big east. Have a nice spring. Both Ud men and women are still playing big time basketball. I hope UD stays in the A10. We will play Xavier somewhere down the road. They can't hide forever.

Uh oh! Sounds like someone forgot to take his dementia meds this morning!

Xavier didn't have to blackball your university to keep them out of the Big East. Your record in the last 25 years was enough just on its own. Add to that the way your fans (ahem) handle themselves, and well, you just wouldn't have fit. But, no worries. We're looking for buy games for next season, so maybe let your AD know. Jimmy Carter, know what I mean?

[Flyers forever]

I would hardly call it a knife in the back. From your perspective, what does UD add to the Big East that isn't already there? Also, if you think OSU is losing in the first round you might want to be careful in your prediction. OSU has only been put out three times in the first round in the NCAA since 1939.

OSU is overrated. I think we have a good chance of beating them. As for what Dayton has to offer the big east, one of the best fan based teams in the nation. Dayton cares 20 times more about the Flyers then Cincy cares about Xavier. Xavier is the step sister of Cincinnati. Heck NKY will probably have a larger fan base in a few years then Xavier has. 2- A large market. If you count the burbs , we are just as big as Indy and bigger then Omaha, both new little east cities. We will be in the big east in a year or two despite Judas Xavier. When that happens watch the A10 grab Wright State to keep the Dayton market.

[RealDeal]

Karma hit Xavier last night. They blackballed dayton out of the big east and then got blown out at UD Arena. Even though I've been a UD fan for 60 years, I also liked Xavier. UD and Xavier were like brothers. Then out came the knife in the back. Xavier , choke on the big east. Have a nice spring. Both Ud men and women are still playing big time basketball. I hope UD stays in the A10. We will play Xavier somewhere down the road. They can't hide forever.

You will be staying in the A10 sweater vest, you will be.

[DC Muskie]

Dayton cares 20 times more about the Flyers then Cincy cares about Xavier.

This some sort of attempt to burn us?

If so, you might want to go back to the drawing the board.

Also, I really don't understand the entire "step sister" analogy. What are you going for with that? If we are UC's step sister, doesn't that imply that UC is also our step sister? And doesn't that cancel them out in your mind that step siblings are somehow bad things? When you come up with these slams, do you even take the time to consider what message you are trying to convey? Or do you just thump on your keyboard and hope everyone else gets your attempt at witty smack talk?

[Flyers forever]

How wrong you are. A lot of UD fans are WSU fans too. We call out UD for not playing WSU. I'm sure when they do resume that series, WSU will have a lot more class then Xavier and not cause a riot like your wonderful players did a few years ago against UC. Hoping they win the CIT. Also WSU women and UD women are both in the NCAA tourney. How are the Cincy women teams doing?

[_LH]

The BE may expand by 2 more teams but neither will be UD because UD (as you know deep down) offers nothing to the BE.

[RealDeal]

How wrong you are. A lot of UD fans are WSU fans too. We call out UD for not playing WSU. I'm sure when they do resume that series, WSU will have a lot more class then Xavier and not cause a riot like your wonderful players did a few years ago against UC. Hoping they win the CIT. Also WSU women and UD women are both in the NCAA tourney. How are the Cincy women teams doing?

http://www.helpguide.org/elder/alzheimers_disease_dementias_caring_caregivers.htm

[Flyers forever]

I'm sure you will be there next year. Xavier will be 20-13 and barely make the first 4. Good thing the NCAA does not agree with your critique of our Arena

[_LH]

I'm sure you will be there next year. Xavier will be 20-13 and barely make the first 4. Good thing the NCAA does not agree with your critique of our Arena

And UD will have 14 wins while playing in the A10 forever.

[Flyers forever]

Someone from Cincinnati calling Dayton a dying town ? Really? I love Cincinnati, but it is in the same boat as Dayton and many cities in the Midwest. Let's face both are trying hard to rebound. Dayton has made some nice strides in the last 10 years. And the stadium area in Cincinnati is nice. As much as I hate to say so, Cincinnati is Dayton with the Reds. Paul Brown can't wait to get the Hell out

[_LH]

Please, Dayton as a city is a dump.

[DC Muskie]

Someone from Cincinnati calling Dayton a dying town ? Really? I love Cincinnati, but it is in the same boat as Dayton and many cities in the Midwest. Let's face both are trying hard to rebound. Dayton has made some nice strides in the last 10 years. And the stadium area in Cincinnati is nice. As much as I hate to say so, Cincinnati is Dayton with the Reds. Paul Brown can't wait to get the Hell out

What? Paul Brown is dead.

Can someone translate this shit please?

[Flyers forever]

Ok sorry Mikey boy. Soon to be the owner of the Los Angeles Bengals

[_LH]

If, and of course considering it is UD we are talking about, so it is a big if, UD upsets OSU, is Archie gone?

[BandAid]

If, and of course considering it is UD we are talking about, so it is a big if, UD upsets OSU, is Archie gone?

He's probably already packed his boxes just in case

[_LH]

It certainly is an audition for Archie for a big time coaching opportunity.

[kyxu]

Karma hit Xavier last night. They blackballed dayton out of the big east and then got blown out at UD Arena. Even though I've been a UD fan for 60 years, I also liked Xavier. UD and Xavier were like brothers. Then out came the knife in the back. Xavier , choke on the big east. Have a nice spring. Both Ud men and women are still playing big time basketball. I hope UD stays in the A10. We will play Xavier somewhere down the road. They can't hide forever.

UD fans conveniently forget that Xavier was instrumental in helping UD get into the A-10. Xavier really had no say in whether UD, or anyone else, joined the Big East. If Dayton wants to wallow in their own bile about that, fine.

[danaandvictory]

UD fans conveniently forget that Xavier was instrumental in helping UD get into the A-10. Xavier really had no say in whether UD, or anyone else, joined the Big East. If Dayton wants to wallow in their own bile about that, fine.

...and, of course, also conveniently forget that Dayton was more than willing to bolt the MCC when the Great Midwest came calling, leading to that awful period when X was in a league with the dregs of the MCC and all the Mid-Continent teams.

[BMoreX]

Did this guy really say Cincinnati is Dayton with the Reds?

I'm not from here. First time I came was my senior year of high school so my only allegiance really is because of my college.

That said, Cincinnati is VASTLY superior to Dayton in every category I can think of.

[DC Muskie]

UD fans conveniently forget that Xavier was instrumental in helping UD get into the A-10. Xavier really had no say in whether UD, or anyone else, joined the Big East. If Dayton wants to wallow in their own bile about that, fine.

I would like to introduce Dayton to Georgetown and Villanova, two schools who want nothing to do with going to Dayton...ever.

[danaandvictory]

So, in their fever dreams, these lunatics really believe the president of DePaul calls up Father Graham, says "good news, we've decided to extend Xavier an offer to join the Big East" and Graham's response is "look, this move fulfills the goals of our basketball program, athletic department, and our university laid out over the last quarter century, but if Dayton is in you can stick it."

Because, of course, if Xavier makes that ultimatum they end up staying in the A-10. With Dayton.

[Flyers forever]

Did this guy really say Cincinnati is Dayton with the Reds?

I'm not from here. First time I came was my senior year of high school so my only allegiance really is because of my college.

That said, Cincinnati is VASTLY superior to Dayton in every category I can think of.

Really. Name some. I known they are vastly superior in urban flight to Butler and Warren counties. And am assuming to Northern Ky too. Our school system is much better then cincinnati schools. That's why there are so many private schools in Cincy. We have the countries largest Air Force Base. Our Art centers are a lot better then Cincy. Boonshoft, Schuster Center, Art Institute. Hell, our ballpark is nicer, and we fill it every game. Going on 1000 straight games. And we see the Reds players before they sign the big contract and get lazy. Lol

[_LH]

Cincinnati is a major league town in every sense of the word and UD is a minor league town in every sense of the word. Heck, Dayton will be be another suburb to Cincinnati eventually.

[muskiefan82]

Really. Name some. I known they are vastly superior in urban flight to Butler and Warren counties. And am assuming to Northern Ky too. Our school system is much better then cincinnati schools. That's why there are so many private schools in Cincy. We have the countries largest Air Force Base. Our Art centers are a lot better then Cincy. Boonshoft, Schuster Center, Art Institute. Hell, our ballpark is nicer, and we fill it every game. Going on 1000 straight games. And we see the Reds players before they sign the big contract and get lazy. Lol

Wow. Delusional doesn't even come close to explaining this guy.

[nuts4xu]

Ok sorry Mikey boy. Soon to be the owner of the Los Angeles Bengals

You sound more ridiculous and desperate for attention with every post you make. The Bengals have a 30 year lease at Paul Brown Stadium, if any team is going to LA it is Jacksonville. But I get it, how would you know about NFL football when all you have is low level minor league baseball to keep you entertained.

There is more to do at the Banks on the Ohio than there is to do in the whole shitty greater dayton area.

You should come back and talk when you make your next sweet 16....or make the NCAA tourney 8 out of 9 years...or hell, actually win an NCAA tourney game. We have more NCAA tourney wins in the past 3 seasons than dayton does in the past 25 years combined. And our last 3 seasons includes not making it once, and losing in the play in game this year.

Weak smack talk from a ud fan always amuses me. It is sad and pathetic to see someone spend time on our messageboard when their own team is alive, well, and playing meaninful basketball. If we were preparing for a game against OSU right now, the last web site I would click upon is a dayton messageboard.

This is a new brand of loser...

[nuts4xu]

Really. Name some. I known they are vastly superior in urban flight to Butler and Warren counties. And am assuming to Northern Ky too. Our school system is much better then cincinnati schools. That's why there are so many private schools in Cincy. We have the countries largest Air Force Base. Our Art centers are a lot better then Cincy. Boonshoft, Schuster Center, Art Institute. Hell, our ballpark is nicer, and we fill it every game. Going on 1000 straight games. And we see the Reds players before they sign the big contract and get lazy. Lol

Oh dear lord, you are really grasping at straws now. You say you have been a dayton fan for 60 years....then you should understand the differences by now. You are too filled with jealousy of the success Xavier has had to see clearly how bad the ud program is, and has been for the past 25 years.

[RealDeal]

I would like to personally thank Flyers forever for reminding us all what the ud delusion is all about.

[X-man]

I would like to personally thank Flyers forever for reminding us all what the ud delusion is all about.

And I want to thank FF for reminding me yet again why the cryers have no shot at getting into the BE.....ever.

[Patrick Bateman]

And I want to thank FF for reminding me yet again why the cryers have no shot at getting into the BE.....ever.

Why are you so sure that UD would want in the BE. The A10 got more teams in the dance. The BE is simply a name that they paid a lot for and not what it used to be. For instance, last year the 3rd place team in the BE was a 3 seed, this year...play in game. Huge huge drop. The TV contract will likely be re-negotiated next time it is up and the poor ratings will decrease the value.

[DC Muskie]

The TV contract will likely be re-negotiated next time it is up and the poor ratings will decrease the value.

TV contracts are always renegotiated when they are up, you're not making some grand statement.

Also, TV contracts are done over a course of years, and simply thinking that a brand new network would rake in huge ratings in it's first year is akin to telling people that contracts will be renegotiated when they are completed. Or saying that UD wouldn't want to be in the BE, you know with all the money, and prestige that comes from being associated with the programs that are in the BE.

But overall good insight.

The ratings will go up. FS1 will continue to take market share. It will be done over time and the BE, and FS1 will be fine because of it. And UD will wish they can get in.

[GoMuskies]

No matter what happens with the next Big East TV contract, there is approximately a 101% chance it will be far superior to whatever contract that A-10 can throw together.

[ammtd34]

Wow, I can't believe I've missed this for the last few days. I especially like that "Dayton's art scene is better" bit. At first I wasn't sure, but that was how I knew it was satire.

Reference: I live in Centerville.

[Patrick Bateman]

TV contracts are always renegotiated when they are up, you're not making some grand statement.

Also, TV contracts are done over a course of years, and simply thinking that a brand new network would rake in huge ratings in it's first year is akin to telling people that contracts will be renegotiated when they are completed. Or saying that UD wouldn't want to be in the BE, you know with all the money, and prestige that comes from being associated with the programs that are in the BE.

But overall good insight.

The ratings will go up. FS1 will continue to take market share. It will be done over time and the BE, and FS1 will be fine because of it. And UD will wish they can get in.

FS1 had the most Big East games of any channel, broadcasting 48 of the 85 national TV games. Of those 48 games, 41 had a rating of 0, five had a rating of 0.1, and two had a rating of 0.2. While these are definitely underwhelming numbers, it shows the double edged sword that is extensive coverage. More games will be on national TV, but a good number of those games will be duds. Villanova vs. Towson took the crown as least watched game, drawing 8,000 viewers for the Sunday night tilt. Were ESPN still the Big East’s home base, this game would have been relegated to ESPN3 status and wouldn’t drag down the average.

There’s no way to sugarcoat the FS2 numbers. All 14 games failed to crack the 40,000 viewer mark and eight of those couldn’t even muster 8,000. Seton Hall’s game against Monmouth on Monday, Nov. 18 only had 1,000 people watching. At this point, FS2′s reach is so nonexistent it might actually be advantageous to be on a regional network. We are working on acquiring local broadcast numbers for the regional FOX stations. Any input would be appreciated.


http://painttouches.com/2014/01/08/big-east-fox-sports-1-struggle-to-gain-tv-ratings/

This year, he said, the average price for the March 12 championship game is $166, about 18 percent less expensive than last year’s title game, which averaged $203. That matchup featured Syracuse, now a member of the Atlantic Coast Conference, and Louisville, which remained in the old Big East, now known as the American Athletic Conference.

“Syracuse and UConn really drove ticket sales on the resale market,” Matcovich said in an e-mail. “With those two gone, local alumni of those two regional schools really have no reason to attend the tournament anymore.”


http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-03-12/new-big-east-is-slow-to-sell-out-tournament-at-new-york-s-garden.html

[DC Muskie]

FS1 had the most Big East games of any channel, broadcasting 48 of the 85 national TV games. Of those 48 games, 41 had a rating of 0, five had a rating of 0.1, and two had a rating of 0.2. While these are definitely underwhelming numbers, it shows the double edged sword that is extensive coverage. More games will be on national TV, but a good number of those games will be duds. Villanova vs. Towson took the crown as least watched game, drawing 8,000 viewers for the Sunday night tilt. Were ESPN still the Big East’s home base, this game would have been relegated to ESPN3 status and wouldn’t drag down the average.

There’s no way to sugarcoat the FS2 numbers. All 14 games failed to crack the 40,000 viewer mark and eight of those couldn’t even muster 8,000. Seton Hall’s game against Monmouth on Monday, Nov. 18 only had 1,000 people watching. At this point, FS2′s reach is so nonexistent it might actually be advantageous to be on a regional network. We are working on acquiring local broadcast numbers for the regional FOX stations. Any input would be appreciated.


http://painttouches.com/2014/01/08/big-east-fox-sports-1-struggle-to-gain-tv-ratings/

Oh I'm aware of the numbers, I look at them every week. What exactly did you expect for a network that launched in August? And FS2? That's not even in consideration.

Again, this is a process long term view. I'm not sure why you look at the first few months of ratings and decide "well that's shit, next." That's not how this is set up to work. Next year will be better and the year after, and the year.

[BMoreX]

If you were expecting bigger ratings for fs1 that rivaled espn in the first few months of in the first year of their launch, you had too high expectations.

[paulxu]

TV contracts are always renegotiated when they are up, you're not making some grand statement.

Considering the source, that may in fact be a "grand statement." Small steps, and all...

[Masterofreality]

I think that FS1 and FS2 will continue to grow viewership and Fox is in it for the long term. I'll bet they're getting more eyeballs than when it was Speed Channel.

One thing that they need to do better, however, is make sure that they get those channels in all hotels. There are many that don't carry either of them.

Trust me from a guy who is on the road a lot. Guys in hotels want to watch sports and if the channel isn't available at all, the network is missing a ton of potential viewers.

[DC Muskie]

I think that FS1 and FS2 will continue to grow viewership and Fox is in it for the long term. I'll bet they're getting more eyeballs than when it was Speed Channel.

One thing that they need to do better, however, is make sure that they get those channels in all hotels. There are many that don't carry either of them.

Trust me from a guy who is on the road a lot. Guys in hotels want to watch sports and if the channel isn't available at all, the network is missing a ton of potential viewers.

Bars too. ESPN is the default channel at most bars. FS1 would be wise to do a grassroot effort to encourage bars to keep the default channel on FS1. You'd be surprised how most places simply don't just carry the local game, they leave it on ESPN just because.

[GoMuskies]

I have yet to be in a hotel with FS1. And it is VERY rare to be in a bar that has FS1 on without asking for it (which is a pain).

So good points.

[xu2002]

Why are you so sure that UD would want in the BE. The A10 got more teams in the dance. The BE is simply a name that they paid a lot for and not what it used to be. For instance, last year the 3rd place team in the BE was a 3 seed, this year...play in game. Huge huge drop. The TV contract will likely be re-negotiated next time it is up and the poor ratings will decrease the value.

Why would I be so sure? Because any team in the A-10 would jump instantly at the opportunity for any number of reasons. Congrats on the A-10 getting 6 teams in the tournament. Don't count on that happening every year. It never happened in the close to twenty years Xavier was in the A-10. Most years they were lucky to get more than 2. For some reason Dayton fans love to bash the Big East and act like they wouldn't want the invite. Probably because no team in the Big East wants Dayton. There are better options to be had in the A-10 anyway.

Congrats though on getting your 2nd NCAA win in the past decade. If you win on Saturday you can say you made it out of the first weekend for the first time since 1984! Only 4 years after you last won a game in Cincinnati.

[DC Muskie]

I have yet to be in a hotel with FS1. And it is VERY rare to be in a bar that has FS1 on without asking for it (which is a pain).

So good points.

I was in one that had it, but it was listed as Speed. It's going to take time.

[xu2002]

I have yet to be in a hotel with FS1. And it is VERY rare to be in a bar that has FS1 on without asking for it (which is a pain).

So good points.

I was just in a hospital for the past week that had FS1. I was actually shocked when I realized I was able to watch the Big East tournament.

[Flyers forever]

Why are you so sure that UD would want in the BE. The A10 got more teams in the dance. The BE is simply a name that they paid a lot for and not what it used to be. For instance, last year the 3rd place team in the BE was a 3 seed, this year...play in game. Huge huge drop. The TV contract will likely be re-negotiated next time it is up and the poor ratings will decrease the value.

I'm happy with the A10. My point is that Xavier smiled in UDs face during the process of forming the new Big East, while behind their back they were recruiting votes to keep U D out. Enjoy your weekend Xavier . We will be giving Syracuse all they can handle Saturday. Enough of arguing with you guys. How far have you fallen when UC is the class program in your town. Cronin has much more class then Mack will ever have. Maybe you can get Huggins to come back to town to class up your program.

[xu2002]

I'm happy with the A10. My point is that Xavier smiled in UDs face during the process of forming the new Big East, while behind their back they were recruiting votes to keep U D out. Enjoy your weekend Xavier . We will be giving Syracuse all they can handle Saturday. Enough of arguing with you guys. How far have you fallen when UC is the class program in your town. Cronin has much more class then Mack will ever have. Maybe you can get Huggins to come back to town to class up your program.

Try having a better basketball team over the past 20 years and nothing Xavier said behind closed doors could have kept you out. In the past 5 years Dayton is 41-39 in A-10 play. Not exactly giving leadership in the Big East much reason to rush to add you. So don't act like Xavier was running behind closed doors and able to shut you out of the Big East. Dayton's inability to win consistently in the A-10 is the reason and that is no one's fault but their own.

[DC Muskie]

I'm happy with the A10. My point is that Xavier smiled in UDs face during the process of forming the new Big East, while behind their back they were recruiting votes to keep U D out. Enjoy your weekend Xavier . We will be giving Syracuse all they can handle Saturday. Enough of arguing with you guys. How far have you fallen when UC is the class program in your town. Cronin has much more class then Mack will ever have. Maybe you can get Huggins to come back to town to class up your program.

You really need to work on your game. It's terrible.

[ammtd34]

i'm happy with the a10. My point is that xavier smiled in uds face during the process of forming the new big east, while behind their back they were recruiting votes to keep u d out. Enjoy your weekend xavier . We will be giving syracuse all they can handle saturday. Enough of arguing with you guys. How far have you fallen when uc is the class program in your town. Cronin has much more class then mack will ever have. Maybe you can get huggins to come back to town to class up your program.

waaaahhhhhhhhh. Meanie xavier won't let us get in the big east. Waaaahhhhhhhhh.

[Flyers forever]

Why are you so sure that UD would want in the BE. The A10 got more teams in the dance. The BE is simply a name that they paid a lot for and not what it used to be. For instance, last year the 3rd place team in the BE was a 3 seed, this year...play in game. Huge huge drop. The TV contract will likely be re-negotiated next time it is up and the poor ratings will decrease the value.

Once again if you think wins and loses have anything to do with conference realignment , you are an idiot. Follow the money. Xavier wants southwest ohio all for the selfs, forgetting what the rivalry they have with UD would have boosted interest in the Big East in the Dayton Area. Oh we'll it's a beautiful day. Powerful Xavier gets blown out Tuesday. Big Bad Ohio state is out. Not able to beat lowly Dayton. And real students , like the ones at UD and I must admit Xavier, beat the hired hands UC calls students. Lowly UD marches on . Have a nice weekend In Southwest ohio and central ohio. Enjoy watching a class act team

[_LH]

XU is better than UD.

Cincinnati the city is better than Dayton the city.

End thread.

[BandAid]

Follow the money. Xavier wants southwest ohio all for the selfs, forgetting what the rivalry they have with UD would have boosted interest in the Big East in the Dayton Area.
That's the thing. The Big East doesn't need dayton because dayton fans watch us anyway. Let's be honest, there was a higher turn out of ud fans at one Xavier practice than there were Xavier fans at all of Xavier's practices. You might be more loyal Xavier fans than we are!

[ammtd34]

Enjoy watching a class act team

That Kavanaugh is such a nice kid. You can't help but root for him.

He's a running joke on his own campus.

[LadyMuskie]

Xavier wants southwest ohio all for the selfs

What?

[xu2002]

Once again if you think wins and loses have anything to do with conference realignment , you are an idiot.

It had everything to do with the Big East realignment. Do you think if roles were reversed and Xavier was a .500 team in the A-10 with 1 tournament win in the past decade and Dayton was consistently at the top of the A-10 with 2 elite 8's and multiple sweet 16's that we would have still been invited over Dayton? Keep spinning things however you want. If you want to think Xavier is keeping Dayton out and that Dayton is better in the A-10 then go ahead. Dayton has no one to blame but themselves for being an average team for the better part of the past 2 decades.

[Flyers forever]

It had everything to do with the Big East realignment. Do you think if roles were reversed and Xavier was a .500 team in the A-10 with 1 tournament win in the past decade and Dayton was consistently at the top of the A-10 with 2 elite 8's and multiple sweet 16's that we would have still been invited over Dayton? Keep spinning things however you want. If you want to think Xavier is keeping Dayton out and that Dayton is better in the A-10 then go ahead. Dayton has no one to blame but themselves for being an average team for the better part of the past 2 decades.

Of course they would have. It's the market you are in that was appealing to the big east. Not your record. Same with butler. They wanted Indianapolis they wanted Omaha. And I'm sure they have there eye on St Louis. In the end we will be in. But it doesn't matter, the A10 is an up and coming league. I guess one reason I would like to see Dayton in the big east is the fact ( and I do mean fact) that Wright state would end up in the A10 and get out of the funky Horizon league

[Masterofreality]

Once again if you think wins and loses have anything to do with conference realignment , you are an idiot. Follow the money. Xavier wants southwest ohio all for the selfs..l

Well crafted...and wrong across the board. A)The "money" is in TV. The dump brings nothing to the table in that regard. B) if Xavier only wanted "southwest ohio all for the selfs" then why did Xavier endorse and push the Cryers for the A10? You seem to keep ignoring that fact. C) Wins and losses have plenty to do with this. Your horrible record over the last 30 years is nothing for anyone to want.

[LadyMuskie]

Of course they would have. It's the market you are in that was appealing to the big east. Not your record. Same with butler. They wanted Indianapolis they wanted Omaha. And I'm sure they have there eye on St Louis. In the end we will be in. But it doesn't matter, the A10 is an up and coming league. I guess one reason I would like to see Dayton in the big east is the fact ( and I do mean fact) that Wright state would end up in the A10 and get out of the funky Horizon league

Keep telling yourself this. Denial is a beautiful thing.

[paulxu]

And I'm sure they have there eye on St Louis. In the end we will be in.

If you think they'll take St Louis and Dayton, and leave the Big East unbalanced to the West, you're nuts.

[bjf123]

Andy Mac was talking about this on WLW yesterday. He said the Big East will expand to 12 teams in two years, adding St. Louis and a surprise team he wouldn't name.


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[BandAid]

Andy Mac was talking about this on WLW yesterday. He said the Big East will expand to 12 teams in two years, adding St. Louis and a surprise team he wouldn't name.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Wright State?

[vee4xu]

Andy Mac was talking about this on WLW yesterday. He said the Big East will expand to 12 teams in two years, adding St. Louis and a surprise team he wouldn't name.


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Interesting. I spoke with someone in Xavier's administration a week, or so ago and he said that the BE will not be expanding "anytime soon."

[vee4xu]

What?
It's dayton-ese. Come on Lady, you can't interpret that? :rolleyes:

[BandAid]

Interesting. I spoke with someone in Xavier's administration a week, or so ago and he said that the BE will not be expanding "anytime soon."

How does one determine soon?

[vee4xu]

The context of the conversation we were having was talking about X overall over the next couple of years, including BE expansion. Based on the context of our discussion he was talking about the next 5-7 years.

[waggy]

Duquesne.

[BandAid]

Siena
Detroit
Gonzaga would most definitely be a shocker

[sirthought]

Sienna

Holly Cross,

Fairfield

All fit a certain profile

[paulxu]

Andy Mac was talking about this on WLW yesterday. He said the Big East will expand to 12 teams in two years, adding St. Louis and a surprise team he wouldn't name.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I don't know what "2" years means. If it's the beginning of the 15-16 season, then we'll know before July 1st to save the additional exit fee I would think.

[Strange Brew]

Andy Mac was talking about this on WLW yesterday. He said the Big East will expand to 12 teams in two years, adding St. Louis and a surprise team he wouldn't name.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Notre Dame when the ACC hounds them to join for football.

[BandAid]

Manhattan

[Cheesehead]

manhattan

vcu????

[GoMuskies]

Manhattan

We don't need to be in conference with another team from the Bronx. Tried that once. It was baaaaaaaaaaaaad.

[SpectorJersey]

Why does this board continue to ban posters like flyers forever. He was making this board so much more fun to read. His posts were hilarious. Much like that butler fan who was calling for butler to drill X.

[BandAid]

We don't need to be in conference with another team from the Bronx. Tried that once. It was baaaaaaaaaaaaad.

Someone said "surprise team" so I was throwing out a surprise team. Rumors were floating that the BE was doing some sort of due diligence on Siena. I think they're looking hard at another team in the New York area.

[BlueGuy]

Someone said "surprise team" so I was throwing out a surprise team. Rumors were floating that the BE was doing some sort of due diligence on Siena. I think they're looking hard at another team in the New York area.

As much as people love to hate Syracuse, they are "NY's Team"... at least in Upstate NY. Sienna is an afterthought up here. Even in the capital district (Albany). I know people that make the 2.5 hour drive to the Dome regularly from Albany. I just don't see how adding Sienna would help the Big East.

[nuts4xu]

Let's add Wichita state, they seem to have a nice little program.

[vee4xu]

Why does this board continue to ban posters like flyers forever. He was making this board so much more fun to read. His posts were hilarious. Much like that butler fan who was calling for butler to drill X.

If the dude wants a standup career, then let him go to The Funny Bone.

[waggy]

There's a smack board for people like FF. I they would keep it there, maybe they'd stick around longer.

[xubrew]

Andy Mac was talking about this on WLW yesterday. He said the Big East will expand to 12 teams in two years, adding St. Louis and a surprise team he wouldn't name.


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Andy Mac doesn't know anything. Chances are he just pulled that out of his ass. If he got it from somewhere other than his ass, then it wasn't from any sort of official source within the Big East.

[Xavier]

Great showing for the BE in the tournament. A 2/3 seed and no one in the sweet 16. Media will have a field day with this

[xsteve1]

Andy Mac doesn't know anything. Chances are he just pulled that out of his ass. If he got it from somewhere other than his ass, then it wasn't from any sort of official source within the Big East.

He does work at Xavier in some capacity and has access to the AD and the President.

[waggy]

And Mac knows nothing. Nothing.

[xudash]

Even if he knows something, he should not be spewing stuff out in public.

I can't believe he knows anything about this. The stakes with this stuff are high and confidentiality is extremely important to maintain.

[waggy]

Pretty sure the X AD is on public record (in an interview with AM no less) that expansion will happen. St. Louis is an obvious choice. The only question is whether there would be 12, and if so who the 12th would be.

[X-man]

Pretty sure the X AD is on public record (in an interview with AM no less) that expansion will happen. St. Louis is an obvious choice. The only question is whether there would be 12, and if so who the 12th would be.

If St Louis comes in, #12 will be from the east coast. My vote would be for VCU.

[Masterofreality]

If St Louis comes in, #12 will be from the east coast. My vote would be for VCU.

Not if Shaka leaves.

[GoMuskies]

I still prefer no expansion.

[Masterofreality]

I still prefer no expansion.

Ditto.

[nuts4xu]

I still prefer no expansion.

Giggity....

[XU 87]

I still prefer no expansion.

Everything I"ve read indicates exansion makes no sense. There is no more tv money with expansion. So the league expands but the schools get less money.

[XU 87]

Why are you so sure that UD would want in the BE.

Are you really arguing that UD would rather be in the A-10 than the the Big East? Really?

And assuming you are, I think there is a very high liklihood that your request will be granted.

[casualfan]

I had always thought there was a clause in the TV contract that said we have to add two more teams in the next couple years.

Can anyone confirm that or am I crazy?

[Masterofreality]

The A-10 had a bunch of Senior loaded teams this year...and they still had 5 out of 6 teams out in the first weekend.

Please, no revisionist history here. The A-10 will be horrible next year. Hell, Fordham may actually be competitive.

[LA Muskie]

1. If the BE expands it will be because of FS1. The schools don't want it.

2. Particularly after this year, I don't see the BE expanding unless it can add a MARQUEE name. I just don't see the conference risking the perception that the conference is getting watered down further, even if it's just perception. I also don't see the likes of GTown, Villanova and Creighton (in particular) risking that further perception hit.

[LA Muskie]

I had always thought there was a clause in the TV contract that said we have to add two more teams in the next couple years.

Can anyone confirm that or am I crazy?

I think FS1 wanted that option. Things change. I very much doubt even FS1 would want to grow just for growth's sake after this season.

[XU 87]

I would think Fox would want expansion- more tv markets. What the contract says is a different story. If the contract says "expansion required", then we'll see expansion. If the contract does not mention expansion, and there is no more tv money with expansion, then I doubt we'll see expansion, unless Fox can apply enough pressure ('we're not renewing our contract with you without more tv markets" or "we're going to exercise the early opt out clause of the contract unless you expand into St. Louis and some other large city.")

But I'm pretty sure the contract has a "nuclear clause"- "This contract is terminated immediately if Dayton is let in the league."

[GoMuskies]

Creighton took a major perception hit last night, and they will take a further perception hit as they are struggling to win 15 games next year.

[LA Muskie]

I would think Fox would want expansion- more tv markets. What the contract says is a different story. If the contract says "expansion required", then we'll see expansion. If the contract does not mention expansion, and there is no more tv money with expansion, then I doubt we'll see expansion, unless Fox can apply enough pressure ('we're not renewing our contract with you without more tv markets" or "we're going to exercise the early opt out clause of the contract unless you expand into St. Louis and some other large city.")

But I'm pretty sure the contract has a "nuclear clause"- "This contract is terminated immediately if Dayton is let in the league."
"Markets" was the least of the problems with ratings this year. Perceived quality was the problem. I very much doubt FS1 wants to expand right now.

[Xville]

Watched this again the other day, and despite the title and ESPN trying to be clever, I actually really enjoy this 30 for 30. The original big east was incredible and filled with the type of coaching personalities you just never see anymore.what a visionary Gavitt was and what a complete dipshit Mike tranghese is

[GoMuskies]

I have a lot of mixed feelings about this.

I believe Axl Rose calls his current band Guns N Roses. It's not Guns N Roses, though. They're probably still a good band, but you almost wish they would just move on and call it something else.

I really love this league. I wish we wouldn't have called it the Big East. I know I'm probably the only person on here that feels that way, but it's not the classic Big East lineup, and I felt that if we tried to say that it was, fans and media would say the kinds of things that they're saying now. Instead of saying it's a new league that's good and exciting, they're saying that the league is not really the Big East. There are pieces of it, but it's not the same.

FWIW, I never thought of Louisville, DePaul, Marquette and UC as being classic Big East teams either, but I guess since so much of the classic Big East was still there, (Cuse v GTown, Pitt v WVU, Cuse v UConn, Nova v Georgetown, etc) it still felt enough like the classic Big East for people to accept it as the Big East. With it's current lineup, no one feels that it's the Big East anymore. Had we called it the Continental Athletic Conference, or the Big City Conference, or the Eastern Athletic Conference, or whatever cheesy name we could have come up with, I think peoples opinion of the league would actually be better. They wouldn't feel the need to continuously (and as much as I hate to say it, correctly) point out that it's not the classic Big East.

No one feels the need to point out that Velvet Revolver is not Guns N Roses.

This post aged poorly. The Big East brand has served this conference quite well.

[Xville]

This post aged poorly. The Big East brand has served this conference quite well.

Meh...not sure it's mattered either way...good part was keeping the tourney in NYC, other than that, not sure the name really has been positive or negative.

[xudash]

This post aged poorly. The Big East brand has served this conference quite well.

It's all about THE BRAND, so long as that is supported by success.

The current version of the conference has delivered that.

Having that brand is Huge, period.

[xubrew]

Not sure if it's worth rehashing because things have certainly worked out, but my sentiments on it are still the same. I saw this article a few weeks ago and agree with pretty much all of it. It's not the old Big East. And, that's completely fine. It's a new league with a new identity. So much so that I don't think initially calling it something else would have prevented it from becoming what it has become.

http://collegebasketball.nbcsports.com/2018/02/07/the-new-big-east-will-never-be-the-old-big-east-and-thats-a-good-thing/

[xavierj]

Not sure if it's worth rehashing, but my sentiments on it are still the same. I saw this article a few weeks ago and agree with pretty much all of it. It's not the old Big East. And, that's completely fine. It's a new league with a new identity. So much so that I don't think initially calling it something else would have prevented it from becoming what it has become.

http://collegebasketball.nbcsports.com/2018/02/07/the-new-big-east-will-never-be-the-old-big-east-and-thats-a-good-thing/

I completely disagree. The teams are good but the name makes it more attractive. Conference USA had some really good teams but no one gave them much of a thought the way you do the Big East. Branding is very important.

[Snipe]

I love the Big East.

I get pumped up by those Big East Tourney commercials.

This conference is the best in the nation. I love the home and homes, the coaches and the rivalries. I love watching all the Big East games.

We rock.

[Masterofreality]

I love the Big East.

I get pumped up by those Big East Tourney commercials.

This conference is the best in the nation. I love the home and homes, the coaches and the rivalries. I love watching all the Big East games.

We rock.

Me thinks the B1G was using magic to create some of their attendance figures.

They claimed over 13,000 for the first day Wednesday when there were zero people in either game in the upper level.
Same thing with the Thursday sessions although there was a smattering upstairs.
Yesrterday during the Michigan game on the radio broadcast they originally said the count in the house was 13,690. Then not 15 minutes later, that was "adjusted" to a 19,000 plus sellout.

I woul say that it' the Big Lie Conference.

[JTG]

It's all about THE BRAND, so long as that is supported by success.

The current version of the conference has delivered that.

Having that brand is Huge, period.

This....
Do you think after the New Coke disaster that Coke would have sold more cola if they renamed it Bob's Cola? Dash is correct, brand is huge, and big time success with brand is gold.

[WCWIII]

Does anyone know how our conference "own's" the old Big East records? For instance, I think Tre is currently the 11th all-time Big East leading scorer. I assume that was part of the agreement in the BE / AAAAAAAC formation.

[xubrew]

Does anyone know how our conference "own's" the old Big East records? For instance, I think Tre is currently the 11th all-time Big East leading scorer. I assume that was part of the agreement in the BE / AAAAAAAC formation.

Essentially the 7 basketball schools got the name and records, and the other schools got all the money.

https://amp.usatoday.com/amp/1970647

[WCWIII]

Essentially the 7 basketball schools got the name and records, and the other schools got all the money.

https://amp.usatoday.com/amp/1970647

Read the article ... no mention of Big East stats transferring. I'd certainly guess you are correct, but I never found an official word on the point of whether the stats "transferred."

[usfldan]

Does anyone know how our conference "own's" the old Big East records? For instance, I think Tre is currently the 11th all-time Big East leading scorer. I assume that was part of the agreement in the BE / AAAAAAAC formation.

The 2017-18 Record Book on the Big East website (https://issuu.com/pflenke/docs/2017-18_mbb_record_book) does seem to include the "old" Big East, although they are cagey how they list some things. For example, there is no listing of the most points in a game by a player in Big East history. There is, however, a list of the most points scored in a game by a player at each of the 10 current Big East members.

For example, for Villanova they list Kerry Kittles with 44 points against Boston College in 1995. There is no listing for Boston College, or any other former member. UConn, Syracuse, Pitt, and Louisville are included in the section about Big East teams that have been ranked No. 1.

They don't list any career records, that I can tell.

[letskeepitreal]

Title makes it sound like an obituary. Certainly different but far from dead.

[XUFan09]

Title makes it sound like an obituary. Certainly different but far from dead.That was the point for ESPN.

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[Masterofreality]

Requiem? Hahahahahahaha!!!

The Big East in the 2018 Tournament had the highest average attendance since it went to 10 teams.

Average attendance for all sessions: 18,789 with true sellouts on Thursday, Friday and Saturday nights. There was no magic in those numbers. We were there. It was real. In fact, the Championship Game might have been the most fun I’ve ever had at a non-Xavier game. Packed Garden, electric atmosphere, great game and Ed Cooley’s split pants. All the New York Papers gave a review of the 3 conference tournaments that were in the Big Apple this year. Opinion? 1) That the Big 10 was a "dud". 2) The ACC was "Sterile". 3) The Big East? "Killed It". Nope. No requiem.

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