Sick of Mack

[Xaveriana]

Here it comes, but at least I'm consistent.

Good recruiter but can't coach.

Learn how to motivate my man. In fact learn how to motivate yourself. You looked like you gave up early in the first half.

Team plays undisciplined as hell.

Stop worrying about coaching 3rd grade girls and worry about getting our team ready.

This team is too talented to look this foolish.

Obviously pissed!!! :thumbsdown:

[Muskie]

You may have Mack confused with Tom Crean...

But I understand your frustration.

[Xavier]

My biggest complaint is the team hasn't improved from day one. Just disappointing.

[LadyMuskie]

It does seem as though Mack's teams have mental problems, insomuch as they seem to be undisciplined, lack motivation, etc. I'm not sure why that is. But if there is one thing that is consistent over the last few years, it is that our problems aren't a lack of talent, but rather mental.

[bleedXblue]

It does seem as though Mack's teams have mental problems, insomuch as they seem to be undisciplined, lack motivation, etc. I'm not sure why that is. But if there is one thing that is consistent over the last few years, it is that our problems aren't a lack of talent, but rather mental.

I do agree with the lack of discipline point, but this Xavier team is not what I would call talented. We have two starters who IMHO are marginal high level D1 players. We lack athleticism in a big, big way. Our bench is very young.

[X-Fan]

I do agree with the lack of discipline point, but this Xavier team is not what I would call talented. We have two starters who IMHO are marginal high level D1 players. We lack athleticism in a big, big way. Our bench is very young.
I completely agree with this statement. Could Mack be getting more out of the current roster? Sure, but IMO the overall talent level is not up to snuff. That will begin to get addressed with this next recruiting glass.

[The_Mack_Pack]

IMO we only have 3 players on the roster who are currently BE level players. Semaj, Jmart, and Stainbrook. The young bench players (Reynolds, Farr, Myles, and Randolph) have the talent but could take another year to get there. Dee, Philmore, Stenger simply aren't physically built or quick enough to be playing at this level. unfortunately, Mack pretty much has to have a couple of guys on the court at all times who aren't ready, or can't play, at this level. I'm expecting to be a bubble team again next season because our great incoming freshman will still be freshman but after that I expect to see a top 25 level team every year. Remy Abell should be a help next season, as well.

It's hard to win games this season though when your starting PG and starting PF disappear against anything at or above mediocre competition.

[beatuc]

IMO we only have 3 players on the roster who are currently BE level players. Semaj, Jmart, and Stainbrook. The young bench players (Reynolds, Farr, Myles, and Randolph) have the talent but could take another year to get there. Dee, Philmore, Stenger simply aren't physically built or quick enough to be playing at this level. unfortunately, Mack pretty much has to have a couple of guys on the court at all times who aren't ready, or can't play, at this level. I'm expecting to be a bubble team again next season because our great incoming freshman will still be freshman but after that I expect to see a top 25 level team every year. Remy Abell should be a help next season, as well.

It's hard to win games this season though when your starting PG and starting PF disappear against anything at or above mediocre competition.

I think this team is more than athletic enough to play in the Big East. If you watch what happens especially on wide open three's, it's laziness, pure laziness. There is no intensity in the way Xavier seems to play defense. There is no one saying I'm not letting my guy score at all cost. There is no closing out on shooters with any urgency. It's casually running around and casually closing out that is destroying this team's ability to compete at a higher level. I believe if the team took pride in defense more, the offense would be much more potent.

[X-man]

There was a reason why our team was picked to finish around seventh in the league by the coaches. We are young, and some of more experienced players really aren't BE caliber players. I know I felt like this team would mature more quickly than it has, and so hoped that X would surprise. We have to some extent, but our warts are showing.

That said, I also have concerns about Mack. I am not convinced that he creates enough of a disciplined environment for such a young team. It showed early in the Battle for Atlantis, and it is showing again now in our lack of toughness and consistency on the road. I hope some changes can be made in the way he runs the team.

[Masterofreality]

I do agree with the lack of discipline point, but this Xavier team is not what I would call talented. We have two starters who IMHO are marginal high level D1 players. We lack athleticism in a big, big way. Our bench is very young.


I completely agree with this statement. Could Mack be getting more out of the current roster? Sure, but IMO the overall talent level is not up to snuff. That will begin to get addressed with this next recruiting glass.

Bleed is right on the money. And X-Fan is correct as well.

[markchal]

While I agree with some of the Mack criticisms, I do think the talent level isn't where it needs to be in order to endure a full BE slate. I am fairly convinced Dee should be considered a recruiting miss given what he's produced as a veteran starter but for the people who say Mack doesn't develop players, I think he's done well with Martin and MD and Jalen have shown some solid improvements for freshmen.

[xsteve1]

I think the biggest issue Mack has as a coach is the ability to have guys play above their abilities. X has enough talent to finish in the top 4 of the BE this year especially with Georgetown and Marquette underachieving. X has more talent than UC. I question his ability to motivate players. His personality is that he is a nice guy but doesn't have the intensity of former X coaches. His players don't seem to be responding or playing for him.

[Masterofreality]

I don't think it is a matter of getting guys to play for him.

Most of his stuff is OK, but I don't think he always coaches his "system" to match his players. Georgetown played zone almost all day today. Myles Davis, your zone buster, got 1... That is ONE three point shot and one other one that he forced. By contrast, last week, Buzz Williams found a way to get Jake Thomas 12 shots. I sure would like to see what Myles would do with 12 shots.

[casualfan]

I don't think it is a matter of getting guys to play for him.

Most of his stuff is OK, but I don't think he always coaches his "system" to match his players. Georgetown played zone almost all day today. Myles Davis, your zone buster, got 1... That is ONE three point shot and one other one that he forced. By contrast, last week, Buzz Williams found a way to get Jake Thomas 12 shots. I sure would like to see what Myles would do with 12 shots.

Buzz Williams didn't get him 12 shots as much as we gave him 12 shots. I'm still dumbfounded by our defensive strategy against him and Mack's comments about him "making shots he doesn't make on film" or whatever excuse he gave.

[danaandvictory]

Mack had Redford for four years and couldn't figure out how to get him looks, and that guy is no worse than Jake freaking Thomas.

[OTRMUSKIE]

You guys all might be right I just hope you're not. My theory is we are slow which doesn't allow us to get over to defend the open three. I think we honestly have one guy that is big east caliber in Semaj. I think Martin and Stain are good players but they are in my opinion A-10 good. People need to keep realizing that we made a major jump in quality of opponents. X is still 18-9, still in the dance, albeit we are now in the last four in. X is probably going kNITting but that's okay. I will only worry about Mack if he fails to dance in 2015/2016. If Semaj comes back next year and honestly I think he does, X should be a top 3 Big East team. This isn't the A-10 we are having a transition year and honestly I think they are doing about what was expected. 4 games left, and I still have faith this team pulls off two huge upsets. If we can somehow beat Johns then all we have to do is beat two top 10 teams and we are in. Simple enough, right?

[xsteve1]

Mack had Redford for four years and couldn't figure out how to get him looks, and that guy is no worse than Jake freaking Thomas.

Jake Thomas is 6'3 and Redford is 5'10. I agree X did a poor job with getting Brad looks but his height played a major role.

[vee4xu]

St. John's just lost to Nova. So after a blowout loss and tons of angst, Xavier will be no worse than tied for third place (assuming Marquette beats DePaul). If DePaul plays today like they did at Cintas this past week, they may beat Marquette, which means X is all alone in third. Not bad.

[xudash]

Bleed is right on the money. And X-Fan is correct as well.

I'm okay with all that, too. But I want to see focus, intensity and pride in the jersey. They had enough talent not to lose by 20 to the Hoyas on the road, especially having beaten them at home.

This is our first year in this league, but they must apply all their will to have a chance at success that can land above pre-season expectations.

Both the coach and the players have to figure this out, and now.

[KC4X]

St. John's just lost to Nova. So after a blowout loss and tons of angst, Xavier will be no worse than tied for third place (assuming Marquette beats DePaul). If DePaul plays today like they did at Cintas this past week, they may beat Marquette, which means X is all alone in third. Not bad.

Game is tied with 42 seconds left.

[casualfan]

Game is tied with 42 seconds left.

Depaul hits a 3 to tie with 3 seconds left. Marquette inbounds, guy shoots a 3/4 court shot and nails it but its no good because Buzz Williams called TO.

[Porkopolis]

Depaul hits a 3 to tie with 3 seconds left. Marquette inbounds, guy shoots a 3/4 court shot and nails it but its no good because Buzz Williams called TO.

That was awesome. I can't stand Buzz.

[xsteve1]

Depaul hits a 3 to tie with 3 seconds left. Marquette inbounds, guy shoots a 3/4 court shot and nails it but its no good because Buzz Williams called TO.

I'll never understand teams not fouling instead of letting teams shoot 3's to tie. I'll bet it's about 99% successful by fouling.

[THRILLHOUSE]

wow, Marquette holds on. DePaul had a shot there at the end.

[Snipe]

We are tied for third. I will take that. As bad as coach Mack and as under-talented as our players are, so I hear, we are tied for third in the Big East Conference. All those other teams below us in the Big East should be ashamed. We hardly have any "Big East" players, and our coach surely isn't up to snuff.

At the beginning of the year, all the nattering nabobs of negativism probably would have been overjoyed at the prospect of being in 3rd right now with a shot at the Big Dance. I know I would have taken it. I will take it today. This season isn't over.

[THRILLHOUSE]

all the nattering nabobs of negativism

I'm giving you +reps based solely on this line.

edit - well I would've but I gotta spread around reps...

[bleedXblue]

Love hearing the assistant coach ripped the team too. Scary stuff hearing that this team doesn't want to win badly enough. You can see that in some of the players. If you don't bench them, regardless of who they are then you you're going to lose credibility as a coach. You have to put 5 guys on the floor that are going to play their ass off. I don't care it they are walk ons. ESTABLISH the expectation and then hold the players accountable. I think the game plan for Tuesday is simple. It doesn't matter what defense is played. It doesn't matter what offensive plays are run. Play your ass off or you will be sitting on the bench.

[Snipe]

I stole it from MOR, who stole it from Spiro Agnew, who gets a surprising amount of play on this board.

[NY44]

I'm sorry but I don't buy these unmotivated and lack of leadership cliches. We are a 2 trick pony in the half court. We dump it down low to Stainbrook or let Semaj be Semaj. We get a marginal amount of points from other methods, mainly JMart and fast breaks. I don't think it's shocking that these teams have adjusted to this. It's part of the round robin conference, keeping it fresh is important.

[Masterofreality]

We are tied for third. I will take that. As bad as coach Mack and as under-talented as our players are, so I hear, we are tied for third in the Big East Conference. All those other teams below us in the Big East should be ashamed. We hardly have any "Big East" players, and our coach surely isn't up to snuff.

At the beginning of the year, all the nattering nabobs of negativism probably would have been overjoyed at the prospect of being in 3rd right now with a shot at the Big Dance. I know I would have taken it. I will take it today. This season isn't over.


I stole it from MOR, who stole it from Spiro Agnew, who gets a surprising amount of play on this board.

Keep Spiro alive!

I will be in MSG Tuesday night proudly wearing the blue and white. My critique of Coach is merely a debate in strategy, which is always open for debate, win or lose. Sometimes I'd do it differently, but that does not lessen my support. Nor does my critique of Semaj lessen my support of him. just want him to be the best he can be.

[Snipe]

I would like to know how many "Big East" players each Big East team has on their roster. From this thread we have between 2 and 3 Big East players, and we are in third place. I wonder how many "Big East" players are even in the league.

And MOR, you are a Great American. Today sucked for sure. This is a tough league. We need to get up for Wednesday and shake off today.

[gladdenguy]

Snipe,
They will probably be ready for Wednesday and go on to lose by 30 on Tuesday.

[West is Best]

Mack's use of timeouts makes no sense to me. After the 2nd official's timeout, Xavier goes from being down six to being down 14, in just a 4 minute span. The stretch featured 4 Xavier turnovers and shoddy defense. Why does Mack insist on having the players play through everything? I've seen too many instances where he lets a 4-0 scoring ruin turn into an 8-0 or 10-0 scoring run before calling the timeout. Why doesn't he learn from these mistakes?

Georgetown called a timeout early in the 2nd half after Xavier went on a 5-0 run. The timeout didn't immediately shut Xavier down, but it broke the momentum of a 7-0 run near the start the 2nd half. After our offense stalled G-town blew the game open.

[GuyFawkes38]

If we make the tourney, this year has been a success. We still have a great shot of making it.

IMHO, it's the opposite of what the OP argued. I think the first couple years, Mack struggled to attract the same level of talent that Miller brought in (even though several players ranked well). But Mack has consistently been a solid game coach.

And I think the subpar recruiting is no longer an issue. I love our freshmen and sophomores.

I'm thrilled we have Mack. We knew this year would be a challenge because the depth of talent is poor. The meh recruiting caught up with us. But the future looks bright.

[LadyMuskie]

I'm okay with all that, too. But I want to see focus, intensity and pride in the jersey. They had enough talent not to lose by 20 to the Hoyas on the road, especially having beaten them at home.

This is our first year in this league, but they must apply all their will to have a chance at success that can land above pre-season expectations.

Both the coach and the players have to figure this out, and now.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

[profson]

[QUOTE=Snipe;431867]I would like to know how many "Big East" players each Big East team has on their roster. From this thread we have between 2 and 3 Big East players, and we are in third place. I wonder how many "Big East" players are even in the league.QUOTE]

Nicely played. I am thinking that the team that just crushed us has two -- the guards. And how many does the league leader Creighton have?

[wkrq59]

Nobody likes a plus 20-point loss. It's against our nature. Did anyone think maybe Chris Mack is sick of Mack? During the past hours since the Xavier at Georgetown game ended 74-52, I've read so many theories, proposed lineup changes, suggested substitutions , proposals about use of time outs and everything but must have beheadings in Cintas Center at the next reflection run by Luther Smith I could puke.
Xavier lost. Sh!t happens. St. John's is next. Let's move on. Chris Mack is OUR coach, the current roster members are OUR players and the games remaining to be played are OUR schedule. The Big East Tournament upcoming is OUR tournament.
May I remind all of us that this is the league most of us wanted unconditionally since I started reading and sharing on these chat rooms many years ago???? We should be happy we are where we are. To bastardize Dennis Green, "This is where we wanted to be. We knew who they are and we want to be here for a long, long time. Are we who we think we are?" If so, let's act like it instead of throwing sad tantrums every time we lose either by two or 22. Again, let's have some fun!

:jawdrop2::shutup::rolleyes::stink:

[vee4xu]

And add to what Q says, Syracuse has lost 2 in a row, one being at home to lowly Boston College, Michigan State is now losing at an alarming clip, AZ lost at Utah, tOSU cannot score any points, UC got drubbed by SMU then SMU got drubbed buy lowly Temple, the list goes on. We X fans sometimes (I feel) act like this crap doesn't happen to other schools. Heck, look at UNC and UK. Does anyone here think they are having anywhere near the seasons they want to be having. Xavier is not the only team that wants to win every game they play. Every team wants to win every game they play. That's why it is called competition. When teams go on the road, the expectation has to be dog fight no matter who and where. The dog fights that X finds itself in now in DC and NYC are no longer with George Washington and Fordham, but Georgetown and St. John's. Big difference. When X went to play GW and Fordham, those teams wanted to beat X, but probably feared X. Difference is now that both Georgetown and St. John's want to beat X and DO NOT fear X. The Big East teams are used to playing on a big stage and have been for many years. At this point, I fear that X is the one with road-show stage fright. They have to overcome that and when they do, they'll start winning.

[xu82]

Yep, no one said this was going to be easy. And, to be the bearer of pre-emptive excuses, while next years class looks like a bunch of studs, all but Remy will be freshman. I have the benefit of having been blacked out for most of yesterdays game (sounds like it was painful to see). I wish our D was more solid. I wish we had more reliable scorers. But I am pleased with the direction, even if I know I have to view it over a period of years rather than weeks. Remember back a month or two when it was common to feel like 22 wins was on the low end of expectations. Seasons are long and I try to avoid getting too high or too low. I'm trying to look down the road a bit and keep more positive.

[Retire33]

Mack had Redford for four years and couldn't figure out how to get him looks, and that guy is no worse than Jake freaking Thomas.

Someone finally said it. I said it for four years; never quite under stood it. Could have done a multitude of things to accomplish that.

1) Dribble hand off with screen to follow.
2) "Screen the screener"
3) Back screen with UCLA cut
4) Spacing off of transition (only consistent success they really had)
5) Double Screen to corner or wing with high-low screen action.

I'm sure there are more but those are the most elementary and most were never even tried.

[Nocalmuskie]

you guys are clueless. Brad Redford is barely 6 feet tall ... Mack ran PLENTY of stuff for him, the guy is just short and can't create his one shot ... Jake Thomas is much taller ... and I don't want to hear the plays that you run for your 8th grade CYO team. spare me

[Masterofreality]

you guys are clueless. Brad Redford is barely 6 feet tall ... Mack ran PLENTY of stuff for him, the guy is just short and can't create his one shot ... Jake Thomas is much taller ... and I don't want to hear the plays that you run for your 8th grade CYO team. spare me

To be accurate, however, Myles Davis is 6:2- one inch shorter than Jake Thomas. Thomas got 12 shots against us. Myles got 2 shots vs primarily a zone yesterday, when you needed a zone buster to open thing up. So, pray tell, where are the set ups?

[NY44]

The 3 point shot has been such an enigma for this team. It seems to me that we have a lot of players who can hit 3s, but not many who can hit them when we need them. James Farr has hit 42% which is good, but not spectacular considering he's only taken 45. He only hits them when he is wide open, and he hasn't hit one in 5 games. Semaj is pretty much the same story. People are calling for him to take more 3s because he has hit almost 47% so far, but he's only taken 30. They are both highly selective which leads to these inflated percentages.

JMart and Myles are pretty much identical from behind the arc. Myles gets the perception that he is better from 3 because he can literally do nothing else.

[xavierj]

To be accurate, however, Myles Davis is 6:2- one inch shorter than Jake Thomas. Thomas got 12 shots against us. Myles got 2 shots vs primarily a zone yesterday, when you needed a zone buster to open thing up. So, pray tell, where are the set ups?

Well Myles Davis runs like a 45 year old in the Y league. That might be part of the problem.

[Nocalmuskie]

To be accurate, however, Myles Davis is 6:2- one inch shorter than Jake Thomas. Thomas got 12 shots against us. Myles got 2 shots vs primarily a zone yesterday, when you needed a zone buster to open thing up. So, pray tell, where are the set ups?

And you know what? Jake Thomas has absolutely disappeared for stretches this year for Marquette. You know what else? Xavier has a better record than Marquette and is still IN the tourney in most brackets. Marquette is OUT.

keep trying, though ...

[Masterofreality]

And you know what? Jake Thomas has absolutely disappeared for stretches this year for Marquette. You know what else? Xavier has a better record than Marquette and is still IN the tourney in most brackets. Marquette is OUT.

keep trying, though ...

Yeah, I'll keep trying, like actually going to New York to cheer Xavier on in MSG, then going back to the Seton Hall game and back down to Cincy or 'Nova. Yep, I'm trying.

Point being, though. Teams have scouted Xavier and they are zoning the hell out of us, including Seton Hall at Cintas. We are 3-5 in our last 8 since this trend started and the only above .500 team we've beaten in the 8 games stretch us Providence at home where we couldn't even score 60 points.

Other teams do a much better job of freeing up their shooters. We trade 2's while the opposition shoots 3's. Maybe it is because our defense is porous, but our offense absolutely does not work on shooting 3's. Xavier is 9th out of 10 Big East teams in 3 point shooting attempts and 7th in made 3's. That is not good.

[XU 87]

To be accurate, however, Myles Davis is 6:2- one inch shorter than Jake Thomas. Thomas got 12 shots against us. Myles got 2 shots vs primarily a zone yesterday, when you needed a zone buster to open thing up. So, pray tell, where are the set ups?

I'll bite. Georgetown played better defense against the 3 than what X played against Marquette. Thomas was wide open at times. At other times, he hit some long bombs.

[casualfan]

Other teams do a much better job of freeing up their shooters. We trade 2's while the opposition shoots 3's. Maybe it is because our defense is porous, but our offense absolutely does not work on shooting 3's. Xavier is 9th out of 10 Big East teams in 3 point shooting attempts and 7th in made 3's. That is not good.

This all despite having 3 of the top 15 players in 3 pt % in the conference and two others who would be second and fourth respectively if they qualified (they don't because they don't have enough attempts).

[XU 87]

Other teams do a much better job of freeing up their shooters. We trade 2's while the opposition shoots 3's. Maybe it is because our defense is porous, but our offense absolutely does not work on shooting 3's. Xavier is 9th out of 10 Big East teams in 3 point shooting attempts and 7th in made 3's. That is not good.

I would agree with you there. We need to look to shoot more threes. On the other hand, we have arguably one true long range shooter in Myles Davis. Dee Davis takes a long time to get his shot off so he needs to be wide open. Semaj doesn't take threes unless he's wide open. While Farr was hot early, I think he's cooled down lately. Justin Martin is a decent shooter but average three point shooter. (After typing this I would say Martin is above average from the three- he's at 39% for the year.)

Semaj is at 47%. He's too tenative to shoot threes.

[XU 87]

This all despite having 3 of the top 15 players in 3 pt % in the conference and two others who would be second and fourth respectively if they qualified (they don't because they don't have enough attempts).

I guess that's one way to frame it. Or we could say we have don't have one player in the top 9 and we have only 3 players in the top 37.

[casualfan]

I guess that's one way to frame it. Or we could say we have don't have one player in the top 9 and we have only 3 players in the top 37.

Again, we have two of the top 4 by percentage, but they haven't taken enough shots to qualify. That illustrates the issue MOR pointed out that I responded to perfectly.

[XU 87]

Again, we have two of the top 4 by percentage, but they haven't taken enough shots to qualify. That illustrates the issue MOR pointed out that I responded to perfectly.

Well I am glad you think you responded "perfectly". Farr doesn't play enough minutes to take more shots (I know, you want him to start at the three).

Semaj only shoots threes when he's wide open, which is one reason his percentage is so high. But I think he needs to shoot threes more. I suspect the reason he doesn't is because he has a lack of confidence in his three.

[bleedXblue]

So many bizarre issues with this team. Again, I point to the coaching staff. Why on earth would the coaching staff not be encouraging/demanding that Semaj take more open jump shots (3's)? He's making them at a pretty good clip? It's a huge missing peice of his arsenal. If he continually passes up open shots, pull him out of the game and chew his a**. If guys arent guarding or fighting through screens or whatever.....put them on the damn bench. Its almost as if Mack is too tolerant. You continually allow guys to not play to the system or not play at a high enough intensity level and you dont do anything about it.......you're going to get complacency.

I've said it multiple times......Mack must start playing the guys that are going to put forth the most effort and play to his system. If you dont, you sit on the pine.

[XU 87]

So many bizarre issues with this team. Again, I point to the coaching staff. Why on earth would the coaching staff not be encouraging/demanding that Semaj take more open jump shots (3's)?

Maybe they do. He just looks like he doesn't want to shoot threes. What are you going to do? Bench your best player for not taking shots that he is apparently not comfortable taking?

[Masterofreality]

A couple of other things.

Xavier is 7th in total field goal attempts, although we are 5th in makes. But we are 8th in made Free Throws.

We also turn the ball over at an alarming rate with the second worst number of offensive turnovers with only DePaul turning it over more.

Can't say this offense is a well oiled machine.

[West is Best]

I would agree with you there. We need to look to shoot more threes. On the other hand, we have arguably one true long range shooter in Myles Davis. Dee Davis takes a long time to get his shot off so he needs to be wide open. Semaj doesn't take threes unless he's wide open. While Farr was hot early, I think he's cooled down lately. Justin Martin is a decent shooter but average three point shooter. (After typing this I would say Martin is above average from the three- he's at 39% for the year.)

Semaj is at 47%. He's too tenative to shoot threes.

It's strange, but we would be better off if we took a couple extra bad (long/contested) 3 pointers a game. It sure beats a charge call.

[NY44]

It's strange, but we would be better off if we took a couple extra bad (long/contested) 3 pointers a game. It sure beats a charge call.

That's all fine and dandy on the offensive side, but when your defense is as bad as ours, taking more 3s isn't going to solve anything.

[bleedXblue]

Maybe they do. He just looks like he doesn't want to shoot threes. What are you going to do? Bench your best player for not taking shots that he is apparently not comfortable taking?

Thats exactly what I'm saying. You cant operate in an offense where you work to get good open shots and then have anyone simply not pull the trigger the majority of the time.

How many good open looks are you going to get on most offensive possessions? One maybe two ? You dont think teams have scouted this? You dont think that guys play off Semaj b/c they know he wont often shoot jumpers.

Why is he not comfortable taking them? He's shooting over 40% from 3.

A lot of this is pure speculation....on both our parts.

Again, sounds like a coaching issue to me.

[Retire33]

you guys are clueless. Brad Redford is barely 6 feet tall ... Mack ran PLENTY of stuff for him, the guy is just short and can't create his one shot ... Jake Thomas is much taller ... and I don't want to hear the plays that you run for your 8th grade CYO team. spare me

The problem was they ran the "same action" when trying to get him a shot. There was never any alternatives used nor any sort of variety. Also, to your CYO comment, all the actions or "plays" that I listed are set that have been used against X to get players like Jake Thomas, Marquel Starks and McDermott shots vs. X.

[xuwin]

Thats exactly what I'm saying. You cant operate in an offense where you work to get good open shots and then have anyone simply not pull the trigger the majority of the time.

How many good open looks are you going to get on most offensive possessions? One maybe two ? You dont think teams have scouted this? You dont think that guys play off Semaj b/c they know he wont often shoot jumpers.

Why is he not comfortable taking them? He's shooting over 40% from 3.

A lot of this is pure speculation....on both our parts.

Again, sounds like a coaching issue to me.

Nobody plays off of Semaj. He has 2 people on him as soon as he enters the front court in every game. Therefore he works to feed the open man.

[muethibp]

I'm not a Mack fan and I think the program would be better with a different coach. I don't see the teams improve as much as one would expect; the teams seem to lack discipline; there are so many Xs-and-Os shortcomings to my eye; he has no idea how to effectively use timeouts or to handle end-of-game situations. I'm generally left with the sense that he doesn't really get it. Most refs clearly hate him and that's of no help to the program. He is immature on the bench - in-game profanity, turning to the assistants to bad-mouth the players when they make mistakes, the dismissive overhead wave of his hand when the other team throws in an unlikely basket (what other D-1 coach acts like that?) - each of those things drive me crazy.

Nevertheless, he has minimum four years left on his deal and I'm not sure dismissing him is a good use of six or seven million dollars, so my hope is that he improves.

[ammtd34]

He is immature on the bench - in-game profanity, turning to the assistants to bad-mouth the players when they make mistakes, the dismissive overhead wave of his hand when the other team throws in an unlikely basket (what other D-1 coach acts like that?) - each of those things drive me crazy.


Then there isn't a coach in basketball who wouldn't drive you crazy.

[muethibp]

Then there isn't a coach in basketball who wouldn't drive you crazy.

Really? Lots of coaches turn to assistants with disgusted looks, shake their heads, and badmouth their players? Lots of coaches do that dismissive wave when teenagers on other teams bank in long shots? Never seen that before other than from Chris.

[ammtd34]

Really? Lots of coaches turn to assistants with disgusted looks, shake their heads, and badmouth their players? Lots of coaches do that dismissive wave when teenagers on other teams bank in long shots? Never seen that before other than from Chris.

Haha, yes.

[muethibp]

Haha, yes.

Disagree, but fine. Those things are admittedly a smaller issue than the obvious and substantial other problems I identified.

[sgarcia]

We were predicted to finish 7th in the league. Right now we are playing like a 7th place team. Deal with it and move on. If you're going to give Mack grief for some of the bad things, don't forget to give him credit for how good Semaj and Stainbrook have been this year. I'm sure he had a hand in their development. I'm not the biggest Mack fan but it hasn't been a pile of crap as you are painting it out to be for the 5 years he's been here.

[Green Mamba]

We were predicted to finish 7th in the league. Right now we are playing like a 7th place team. Deal with it and move on. If you're going to give Mack grief for some of the bad things, don't forget to give him credit for how good Semaj and Stainbrook have been this year. I'm sure he had a hand in their development. I'm not the biggest Mack fan but it hasn't been a pile of crap as you are painting it out to be for the 5 years he's been here.

Blah.

[muethibp]

We were predicted to finish 7th in the league. Right now we are playing like a 7th place team.

Well, as long as he's meeting modest expectations.

[Mrs. Garrett]

A couple of other things.

Xavier is 7th in total field goal attempts, although we are 5th in makes. But we are 8th in made Free Throws.

We also turn the ball over at an alarming rate with the second worst number of offensive turnovers with only DePaul turning it over more.

Can't say this offense is a well oiled machine.

Agree 100%. And as one of the announcers put it - missed free throws are the same as a turnover because you are coming away from a possession empty handed. Against DePaul they missed 17 free throws. Against a decent team they would have lost simply by giving away free points. I will never be able to understand why anybody with the abailty to play at this level can't make their free throws.

Also, a frustrating trend seems to be a team that struggles more as the season goes on instead of improving.

[nuts4xu]

Really? Lots of coaches turn to assistants with disgusted looks, shake their heads, and badmouth their players? Lots of coaches do that dismissive wave when teenagers on other teams bank in long shots?

I think every coach in America does this....

I was on the bench when Pete Gillen was the coach, and he did the same thing. They aren't "badmouthing" the players every time they turn to their assistants. Often times they are saying stuff like "we gotta defend", "remind me next practice to spend half the time on rebounds", or "why can't we guard that fothermucker"?

[Green Mamba]

Since Mack became head coach, this program has had a number of major issues:

(1) Losing assistant coaches to other programs, and in some cases lesser programs/opportunities;

(2) Losing players under a multitude of circumstances, be it being expelled from the university or kicked out of the program;

(3) Issues with player conduct;

(4) Issues with player development;

(5) Major gaps in recruiting classes; and ...

(6) Since Mack finally has "his" players, two underwhelming seasons, which present their own on-the-court problems.

All of this begins to paint the picture of a coach that may not just have his shit together.

[ammtd34]

Since Mack became head coach, this program has had a number of major issues:

(1) Losing assistant coaches to other programs, and in some cases lesser programs/opportunities;



This is an issue?

[GoMuskies]

We were predicted to finish 7th in the league. Right now we are playing like a 7th place team. Deal with it and move on.

I'm not feeling the spirit of this "tired of Mack" thread, but I don't think this is a particularly effective defense of Mack. This is his fifth year. If the roster is full of players picked 7th in the league, who's damned fault is it if not Mack's?

[Green Mamba]

This is an issue?

When you're losing assistant coaches to lesser programs/opportunities, it's an issue.

[ammtd34]

I'm not feeling the spirit of this "tired of Mack" thread, but I don't think this is a particularly effective defense of Mack. This is his fifth year. If the roster is full of players picked 7th in the league, who's damned fault is it if not Mack's?

This is a good point. I'd counter it by saying he recruited in the A-10 before this year. He hit a few home runs recruiting in that conference. A lot of recruits, however, are still swayed by conference affiliation (DSR, for example).

How good next year's class - his first for the Big East - remains to be seen. All signs point to it being very good.

[sgarcia]

Mack and players are both to blame for bad performances. Mack and players should also get credit for good performances. I'm not saying that 7th is okay just pointing out what we were predicted to do before the season began. I'm sure if we were told that Xavier would be 18-9 and 8-6 in the Big East with 4 games left most of us would've taken it and run before the season began.

[Green Mamba]

This is a good point. I'd counter it by saying he recruited in the A-10 before this year. He hit a few home runs recruiting in that conference. A lot of recruits, however, are still swayed by conference affiliation (DSR, for example).

How good next year's class - his first for the Big East - remains to be seen. All signs point to it being very good.

So, if recruiting players of a lesser caliber is an issue for Xavier, why isn't it an issue for Creighton?

[casualfan]

I'm not feeling the spirit of this "tired of Mack" thread, but I don't think this is a particularly effective defense of Mack. This is his fifth year. If the roster is full of players picked 7th in the league, who's damned fault is it if not Mack's?

This x 1000.

[casualfan]

Mack and players are both to blame for bad performances. Mack and players should also get credit for good performances. I'm not saying that 7th is okay just pointing out what we were predicted to do before the season began. I'm sure if we were told that Xavier would be 18-9 and 8-6 in the Big East with 4 games left most of us would've taken it and run before the season began.

I sure wouldn't have. Not knowing the 4 games we have left.

[ammtd34]

When you're losing assistant coaches to lesser programs/opportunities, it's an issue.

Our newest assistant came from Missouri. Whether true or not, I'm guessing a lot of their fans view Xavier as a lesser opportunity. Assistant coaches change jobs. That's how it is.

[GoMuskies]

This is a good point. I'd counter it by saying he recruited in the A-10 before this year.

I see people making this point about us being in the A-10 before, and I wonder what program they were watching in the mid to late 2000s. Do people REALLY think Xavier would have struggled over the years with these particular Big East teams? Personally, every time I hear this argument about our struggles being due to conference affiliation I take it as a huge slap in the face to our players over the past ten years who consistently beat teams much better than everyone in this year's Big East not named Creighton or Villanova.

[ammtd34]

So, if recruiting players of a lesser caliber is an issue for Xavier, why isn't it an issue for Creighton?

It is an issue for Creighton. They just happen to have a once-in-a-lifetimer who happens to be the coach's son.

[Green Mamba]

Our newest assistant came from Missouri. Whether true or not, I'm guessing a lot of their fans view Xavier as a lesser opportunity. Assistant coaches change jobs. That's how it is.

He came from Missouri which, at the time, was under major scrutiny for NCAA violations.

[Green Mamba]

It is an issue for Creighton. They just happen to have a once-in-a-lifetimer who happens to be the coach's son.

You're aware that we have a first-round NBA draft pick on our roster? I know that McDermott is a hell of a player, but there are four other guys on the court with him.

[ammtd34]

I see people making this point about us being in the A-10 before, and I wonder what program they were watching in the mid to late 2000s. Do people REALLY think Xavier would have struggled over the years with these particular Big East teams? Personally, every time I hear this argument about our struggles being due to conference affiliation I take it as a huge slap in the face to our players over the past ten years who consistently beat teams much better than everyone in this year's Big East not named Creighton or Villanova.

I understand what you're saying. There's just no way to tell. I really do think that conference affiliation opens or closes doors in recruiting, as we lost DSR specifically for that reason.

[casualfan]

He came from Missouri which, at the time, was under major scrutiny for NCAA violations.

Hadn't Carter already resigned from Missouri when we started showing interest? In other words wasn't he leaving Missouri whether he came here or not?

[ammtd34]

You're aware that we have a first-round NBA draft pick on our roster? I know that McDermott is a hell of a player, but there are four other guys on the court with him.

I'm aware. I don't get your point though. Remove Semaj and we're really bad. Remove McDermott and they're really bad. Do you mean that Creighton recruits better than Xavier?

[muethibp]

I see people making this point about us being in the A-10 before, and I wonder what program they were watching in the mid to late 2000s. Do people REALLY think Xavier would have struggled over the years with these particular Big East teams? Personally, every time I hear this argument about our struggles being due to conference affiliation I take it as a huge slap in the face to our players over the past ten years who consistently beat teams much better than everyone in this year's Big East not named Creighton or Villanova.

Totally agree. And where do people think this team would be in the A-10 this year? Clearly no better than fourth and a case could be made for as low as eighth.

[Green Mamba]

I'm aware. I don't get your point though. Remove Semaj and we're really bad. Remove McDermott and they're really bad. Do you mean that Creighton recruits better than Xavier?

No. We're bad with or without Christon. It means that while yes, Christon and McDermott are both good players, Creighton, while not in the Big East, was able to recruit other players that have allowed them to be competitive. So, why are we handicapping Xavier?

[GoMuskies]

I understand what you're saying. There's just no way to tell. I really do think that conference affiliation opens or closes doors in recruiting, as we lost DSR specifically for that reason.

Totally agree. I just mean that at other times pre-Mack we were able to get players much better than the ones we have now when we were in the A-10. I certainly agree that we have a higher recruiting ceiling now. But I just do not see conference affiliation as a good excuse for why our roster is relatively talent-poor at this point.

[RealDeal]

Just for the record, as I'm not going to read the entire thread, are we now blaming Mack for the Dez situation?

[SlimKibbles]

This thread is really stupid.

[throwbackmuskie]

This thread is really stupid.

Agree.

Personally I think Mack has done a pretty good job rebuilding the roster after a couple years of dismay. And the future is looking really bright with the 5 youngsters coming in next season.

[danaandvictory]

When you're losing assistant coaches to lesser programs/opportunities, it's an issue.

Rasheen Davis left Xavier for Manhattan. His family lived there. He sold Manhattan on the idea that he could bring Chris Thomas. Based on what I've heard, no one at X was particularly sad to see him go, and both Pegues and Ashley Howard were considered better assistants anyway.

Pat Kelsey - I mean, I'm a cynic, but even I am willing to take him at face value when he lists the reasons he needed a break from coaching.

Who else? You can't seriously argue Maryland, Villanova, and Arizona are worse opportunities for an assistant.

Now, you want to criticize Xavier for failing to pay assistants a competitive rate, that's an argument I'll listen to.

[BMoreX]

Rasheen Davis left Xavier for Manhattan. His family lived there. He sold Manhattan on the idea that he could bring Chris Thomas. Based on what I've heard, no one at X was particularly sad to see him go, and both Pegues and Ashley Howard were considered better assistants anyway.

Pat Kelsey - I mean, I'm a cynic, but even I am willing to take him at face value when he lists the reasons he needed a break from coaching.

Who else? You can't seriously argue Maryland, Villanova, and Arizona are worse opportunities for an assistant.

Now, you want to criticize Xavier for failing to pay assistants a competitive rate, that's an argument I'll listen to.

Or Louisville (Kareem Richardson, who spent a year with Pitino and is now the head coach at UMKC)

[The_Mack_Pack]

So, if recruiting players of a lesser caliber is an issue for Xavier, why isn't it an issue for Creighton?

Just wait until next season when the coaches son leaves..

[sweet16]

I just hope and pray that XU doesn't arbitrarily extend his contract after this season. I think his "administration" has, in an overall sense, been marked by turmoil and, while the sample size is relatively small, I think its accurate to say that he hasn't fared to well with his own recruits.

[XU2011]

Our newest assistant came from Missouri. Whether true or not, I'm guessing a lot of their fans view Xavier as a lesser opportunity. Assistant coaches change jobs. That's how it is.

I thought it was pretty well known his departure from Missouri was questionable, at best. I don't think he left on his own.

[XU 87]

No. We're bad with or without Christon. It means that while yes, Christon and McDermott are both good players, Creighton, while not in the Big East, was able to recruit other players that have allowed them to be competitive. So, why are we handicapping Xavier?

You think this team is "bad"? Really?

I might add that Creighton has arguably the best college player in the country. Semaj is good, but not as good as McDermott.

[XU 87]

I just hope and pray that XU doesn't arbitrarily extend his contract after this season. I think his "administration" has, in an overall sense, been marked by turmoil and, while the sample size is relatively small, I think its accurate to say that he hasn't fared to well with his own recruits.

The only "turmoil" he's had has been two players who said some dumb things after the UC game and Mark Lyons getting kicked off the team. And a good player getting kicked off the team is nothing new. It has happened all the time at X dating back to Jon Hanley.

[Masterofreality]

This thread is now degenerating into Musketeer Madness -esque stupidity. The Chicken Littles have obviously been lying in wait for this.

The sky is falling.....Cover your heads!

I'm concerned with strategy and schemes and whether players want it enough,-real debates for now- not the macro past or future direction of the program. The overall direction is still fine.

I'm confident that Chris Mack knows his basketball. I believe we'll get a solid effort tomorrow night. Will it be enough on the road? Time will tell.

[Cheesehead]

I blame Mack for the deficit, the melting snow caps, and Justin Bieber!!!

Thanks a lot, Chris!!

[sweet16]

The only "turmoil" he's had has been two players who said some dumb things after the UC game and Mark Lyons getting kicked off the team. And a good player getting kicked off the team is nothing new. It has happened all the time at X dating back to Jon Hanley.

Mike Chandler
DSR
Sim
Chris Thomas
Jay Canty
Latham
McKenzie
Chris Cantino
Myles Davis - AI
Jalen - AI
Mark Lyons
Alex Vezenkov (sp?)
Suspensions/benchings
The Brawl
Dez Wells
Pat Kelsey
Rasheen Davis
K. Richardson

That's just off the top of my head.....who/what have I forgotten? You can dismiss any one of these individually but collectively, and over such a short period of time, that's MY definition of turmoil.

[throwbackmuskie]

Mike Chandler
DSR
Sim
Chris Thomas
Jay Canty
Latham
McKenzie
Chris Cantino
Myles Davis - AI
Jalen - AI
Mark Lyons
Alex Vezenkov (sp?)
Suspensions/benchings
The Brawl
Dez Wells
Pat Kelsey
Rasheen Davis
K. Richardson

That's just off the top of my head.....who/what have I forgotten? You can dismiss any one of these individually but collectively, and over such a short period of time, that's MY definition of turmoil.

Are you for real? Players who NEVER stepped on campus are turmoil? Assistants leaving to take the next step are turmoil? Davis and Reynolds are in, NCAA academic stuff happens all over the place, not turmoil. Canty transfered due to lack of playing time, he was behind Wells and Martin was coming in. Latham was just a bust, hasn't done a thing at Loyola. McKenzie was a boarderline prospect, they took a flyer on a local kid to fill a spot, he hasn't done squat at Denver.

The Brawl was not on Mack, the presser was not a good move having Tu and Lyons go out there. It was the right move to part ways with Lyons. Wells isn't really on Mack.

[Muskie]

Mike Chandler
DSR
Sim
Chris Thomas
Jay Canty
Latham
McKenzie
Chris Cantino
Myles Davis - AI
Jalen - AI
Mark Lyons
Alex Vezenkov (sp?)
Suspensions/benchings
The Brawl
Dez Wells
Pat Kelsey
Rasheen Davis
K. Richardson

That's just off the top of my head.....who/what have I forgotten? You can dismiss any one of these individually but collectively, and over such a short period of time, that's MY definition of turmoil.

While I find the premise of your list ridiculous, I suspect that critics of ANY coach at ANY school could come up with a similar list for that particular coach.

For example. Bob Knight apparently ran Larry Bird out of Bloomington in the late 70's. By your logic they should have fired him then (not withstanding a National Title in 1976, 1981 and 1987, along with a Final Four Appearance after that). Do you want me to list 20 or 30 other guys that left IU or didn't come there during his reign? I'm pretty certain most IU fans will take the on the court success of the era despite your definition of "turmoil".

[blueblob06]

I didn't know that having high school kids commit to your school and then de-commit is turmoil. Same with transfers. Nearly every top college team in the country has gone through turmoil in the past 5 years!!!

Crap, Mack forgot his lunch at home today! He has to walk over to Currito now. Turmoil!!!

[GoMuskies]

Crap, Mack forgot his lunch at home today! He has to walk over to Currito now. Turmoil!!!

That sort of reminds me: Passport-gate and Casino-gate

[XU 87]

Mike Chandler
DSR
Sim
Chris Thomas
Jay Canty
Latham
McKenzie
Chris Cantino
Myles Davis - AI
Jalen - AI
Mark Lyons
Alex Vezenkov (sp?)
Suspensions/benchings
The Brawl
Dez Wells
Pat Kelsey
Rasheen Davis
K. Richardson

That's just off the top of my head.....who/what have I forgotten? You can dismiss any one of these individually but collectively, and over such a short period of time, that's MY definition of turmoil.

Is this a joke? Everyone has already echoed my thoughts. So I'll try not to pile on. But if you think things like recruits de-committing, players transferring, and assistant coaches going to higher paying jobs means a program is in "turmoil", then just about every program in the country is in "turmoil".

[danaandvictory]

The only thing on that list that truly matters is Dez Wells. That was a full-on ship-of-the-line broadside to this program. Put him on last year's team and we're at worst a bubble team, maybe even an A-10 contender. Plug him into this year's team and we're safely in the tournament.

Chris Mack had no agency whatsoever in that situation. That was first and foremost on the kid for making a stupid decision and, depending on your position, also on the university for bowing to federal pressure and/or engaging in a flawed adjudicatory process.

That situation never happens then all the other stuff is just the vicissitudes of running a big-time, aspirational program.

Maybe the buck stops with Mack but I'm sure as hell not going to advocate dumping the guy just yet. I think he's got two more years to turn this thing around and I fully expect him to do so.

[Green Mamba]

The only thing on that list that truly matters is Dez Wells. That was a full-on ship-of-the-line broadside to this program. Put him on last year's team and we're at worst a bubble team, maybe even an A-10 contender. Plug him into this year's team and we're safely in the tournament.

Chris Mack had no agency whatsoever in that situation. That was first and foremost on the kid for making a stupid decision and, depending on your position, also on the university for bowing to federal pressure and/or engaging in a flawed adjudicatory process.

That situation never happens then all the other stuff is just the vicissitudes of running a big-time, aspirational program.

Maybe the buck stops with Mack but I'm sure as hell not going to advocate dumping the guy just yet. I think he's got two more years to turn this thing around and I fully expect him to do so.

I'm not ready to get rid of Mack, but I'm not drinking the kool-aid either. In my opinion, he has done as much to make me believe he can lead this program as he has to make me believe that he can't.

[sweet16]

Is this a joke? Everyone has already echoed my thoughts. So I'll try not to pile on. But if you think things like recruits de-committing, players transferring, and assistant coaches going to higher paying jobs means a program is in "trumoil", then just about every program in the country is in "turmoil".

OK, now remember my point was individually you can challenge any of one the items/names on the list but collectively and the sheer volume is where I take issue. You suggest that every program in the country is in "turmoil" by like measure. I believe that was an exaggeration on your part to make a point. So I'll give you the benefit of the doubt there and ask that you only name half of the nearly 350 DI teams that have had the number of decommits and transfers we have had in the last 3 years. Honestly, I'd be surprised if you can find two!

[SM#24]

And where do people think this team would be in the A-10 this year? Clearly no better than fourth and a case could be made for as low as eighth.
Personally, I think we would be 2nd and no worse than comfortably in that pack of 5 teams directly behind SLU.

[XBR1]

I went to Xavier at the same time Chris did. I was a good friend of Brian Grant's and hung/played with the team a lot going through school. I was disappointed when Chris got the job because I felt he was a major tool when I was around him. I have to say I have been pleasantly surprised with the job he has done. He has been a hell of a recruiter and a pretty good game coach. He does need to tighten the reigns a little bit and not try to be best friends with the players. It would be a big mistake to even think about letting him go at this juncture.

[throwbackmuskie]

Projected to finish 7th, yet X is standing in 3rd place right now, 18 wins, and made a big league in conferences, but hey let's bitch and moan!

[SM#24]

So there you have it XU87, do the research on 175 teams or be willing to admit that what Sweet16 posted is in fact true and not one of the stupidest things ever posted here.

[Green Mamba]

So there you have it XU87, do the research on 175 teams or be willing to admit that what Sweet16 posted is in fact true and not one of the stupidest things ever posted here.

Maybe I'm just slap happy, but this made me laugh out loud.

[XBR1]

OK, now remember my point was individually you can challenge any of one the items/names on the list but collectively and the sheer volume is where I take issue. You suggest that every program in the country is in "turmoil" by like measure. I believe that was an exaggeration on your part to make a point. So I'll give you the benefit of the doubt there and ask that you only name half of the nearly 350 DI teams that have had the number of decommits and transfers we have had in the last 3 years. Honestly, I'd be surprised if you can find two!


Just pull UD over the last ten years and you will find similar issues.

[ammtd34]

OK, now remember my point was individually you can challenge any of one the items/names on the list but collectively and the sheer volume is where I take issue. You suggest that every program in the country is in "turmoil" by like measure. I believe that was an exaggeration on your part to make a point. So I'll give you the benefit of the doubt there and ask that you only name half of the nearly 350 DI teams that have had the number of decommits and transfers we have had in the last 3 years. Honestly, I'd be surprised if you can find two!

Allerik Freeman
Trevon Bluiett
Dominic Artis
Josh Smith
Mike Moser
Branden Lane
Matt Carlino
De'End Parker
Tyler Lamb

[throwbackmuskie]

List of every transfer for 2013
http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/9415252/tracking-every-transfer-2013-offseason-college-basketball

Also Louisville kicked Bahannan off the team, and had 2 decommits this years.

http://espn.go.com/college-sports/recruiting/basketball/mens/story/_/id/9675392/jaquan-lyle-no-5-point-guard-2014-espn-100-decommits-louisville-cardinals

[casualfan]

Allerik Freeman
Trevon Bluiett
Dominic Artis
Josh Smith
Mike Moser
Branden Lane
Matt Carlino
De'End Parker
Tyler Lamb

Were all those guys committed to one school at one time or another? What am I missing here?

[The_Mack_Pack]

Were all those guys committed to one school at one time or another? What am I missing here?

Those are high profile transfers or decommits from what seems to be UCLA.

[XBR1]

Were all those guys committed to one school at one time or another? What am I missing here?

UCLA. Let's not forget about their head coach leaving too.

[casualfan]

List of every transfer for 2013
http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/9415252/tracking-every-transfer-2013-offseason-college-basketball

I'm not sure I agree with the original posters point, but I definitely don't agree that this list disproves it. Just because lots of schools have transfers doesn't mean they have had near the turnover rate we have had of late.

What I will say is that I think the more "turmoil" (i.e. decomittments, transfers, players booted, etc.) you see with a team the less likely they are to make the tournament.

[Xtrapass]

What? Bringing in three recruits who end up leaving after a year doesn't matter (Latham, Canty, McKenzie)? That'll set your program back immediately.

[XBR1]

What? Bringing in three recruits who end up leaving after a year doesn't matter (Latham, Canty, McKenzie)? That'll set your program back immediately.

Here comes the troll.

[casualfan]

Let's not forget about their head coach leaving too.

Doesn't that prove his point then kind of? I mean if the idea is that the turmoil should lead to Mack being fired (I don't agree with this personally) I'm not sure saying "it's normal, just look at UCLA and all the guys they lost. And oh by the way it led to their coach getting canned" is the best rebuttal.

[throwbackmuskie]

What? Bringing in three recruits who end up leaving after a year doesn't matter (Latham, Canty, McKenzie)? That'll set your program back immediately.

yet the year after they all left X made the sweet 16...

[throwbackmuskie]

I'm not sure I agree with the original posters point, but I definitely don't agree that this list disproves it. Just because lots of schools have transfers doesn't mean they have had near the turnover rate we have had of late.

What I will say is that I think the more "turmoil" (i.e. decomittments, transfers, players booted, etc.) you see with a team the less likely they are to make the tournament.

See my editted post where I added info about Louisville. And Memphis shows up on that list a few times.

[XUFan09]

D1 teams average one to two transfers and one to two decommits per year, along with one assistant change per year, and Mack is consistent with this average. At the high D1 level, the rate is even higher, so he's actually better than that average.

Suspensions and benchings? Do you just not pay attention to other programs? Only way I could see it as possible that you think this is a unique issue.

Sent from my DROID RAZR HD using Tapatalk

[The_Mack_Pack]

Latham and McKenzie were misses anyway, they would've rode the bench their entire careers at X. Canty showed some talent at App State but has been suspended by the coach a couple of times so I don't think him leaving was a big loss either. I will say that messing up that class and all of partial qualifiers who've had to sit out a year is having an effect on this years team. It's amazing that you can have such a huge recruiting miss on two straight years at the beginning of Mack's tenure and still be in the position to make the tournament..

[ammtd34]

In the last 12 months at IU:

Trey Lyles
Remy Abell
Luke Fischer
Maurice Creek

Hanner Mosquera-Perea arrested/suspended

[GoMuskies]

The roof literally falling in on the season.

[casualfan]

D1 teams average one to two transfers and one to two decommits per year, along with one assistant change per year, and Mack is consistent with this average. At the high D1 level, the rate is even higher, so he's actually better than that average.

Suspensions and benchings? Do you just not pay attention to other programs? Only way I could see it as possible that you think this is a unique issue.

Sent from my DROID RAZR HD using Tapatalk

Do you have a link for those stats? I'm not disagreeing I just find that interesting and would love to see where that came from.

[casualfan]

In the last 12 months at IU:

Trey Lyles
Remy Abell
Luke Fischer
Maurice Creek

Hanner Mosquera-Perea arrested/suspended

And Crean is on the hot seat because of it.

Like I said I'm not sure I agree with the OP's point, but bringing up UCLA and IU as examples of high level programs experiencing "normal" amounts of turnover is a bit off IMHO. Howland is already gone from UCLA and Crean is well on his way out at IU.

If the idea is to show that all schools experience turnover and that it's no big deal I don't think either of those two examples work.

[GoMuskies]

Rick Pitino has probably suspended every player on his roster at one point or another, he's the brunt of "15 seconds" jokes almost constantly (from me), and one of his players just transferred to a pot-smoking haven to play for a coach that can be his wingman at parties. And they won a national title last year, are ranked 4th this year, and went to the Final Four two years ago.

[ballyhoohoo]

Rick Pitino has probably suspended every player on his roster at one point or another, he's the brunt of "15 seconds" jokes almost constantly (from me), and one of his players just transferred to a pot-smoking haven to play for a coach that can be his wingman at parties. And they won a national title last year, are ranked 4th this year, and went to the Final Four two years ago.

You know what Rick pitino can do with a 30 second time out? Score twice!

[ammtd34]

Rick Pitino has probably suspended every player on his roster at one point or another, he's the brunt of "15 seconds" jokes almost constantly (from me), and one of his players just transferred to a pot-smoking haven to play for a coach that can be his wingman at parties. And they won a national title last year, are ranked 4th this year, and went to the Final Four two years ago.


Rick Pitino has probably suspended every player on his roster at one point or another, he's the brunt of "15 seconds" jokes almost constantly (from me), and one of his players just transferred to a pot-smoking haven to play for a coach that can be his wingman at parties. And they won a national title last year, are ranked 4th this year, and went to the Final Four two years ago.

Chane Behanan (kicked off)
Jaquan Lyle (decommit)
Zach Price (Transfer)
Jared Swopshire (Transfer)
Kyle Kuric made a walk-on
Rakeem Buckles (transfer)
Akoy Agau (suspended)

Probably more. I gave up.

[XUFan09]

Do you have a link for those stats? I'm not disagreeing I just find that interesting and would love to see where that came from.

My computer is being unusually slow right now and it's difficult to put this stuff together on my phone. The transfer rate is easy to search for, as it's well-documented. The decommit rate is harder to find (making me wish my computer was working properly lol), but I remember it being about the same as the transfer rate when I was looking this stuff up back in 2011 (That's when Xavier had a pair of each). For a comparison, though, Xavier has three transfers on its roster right now (not counting Stenger, as NKU was D2 at the time). In addition, they have two players formerly committed elsewhere, along with one more coming next year. As for the higher rates among high D1 programs, that's connected to the higher rates among top 100 recruits. Luke Winn of Sports Illustrated did a good study on that last year that's still easily searchable.

The assistant coaches' rate of departure is one I've heard a few times but I can't remember where I read about it, though it makes sense, considering the serious business that is coaching. I'll see if I can find that later.

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[ammtd34]

And Crean is on the hot seat because of it.

Like I said I'm not sure I agree with the OP's point, but bringing up UCLA and IU as examples of high level programs experiencing "normal" amounts of turnover is a bit off IMHO. Howland is already gone from UCLA and Crean is well on his way out at IU.

If the idea is to show that all schools experience turnover and that it's no big deal I don't think either of those two examples work.

I agree with you. I wasn't arguing that those schools have had continuity, they were just the first two that came to mind when Sweet16 contended that there probably weren't 2 schools that have experienced the transfers/decommits that Xavier had.

I think Louisville works better as a "this happens everywhere" example.

[XU 87]

Chane Behanan (kicked off)
Jaquan Lyle (decommit)
Zach Price (Transfer)
Jared Swopshire (Transfer)
Kyle Kuric made a walk-on
Rakeem Buckles (transfer)
Akoy Agau (suspended)

Probably more. I gave up.

Justin Martin (decommit)

[sweet16]

So there you have it XU87, do the research on 175 teams or be willing to admit that what Sweet16 posted is in fact true and not one of the stupidest things ever posted here.

I guess the sarcasm was lost on you. He made the point that EVERY school experiences this.......all I asked was to show me two other schools with like volume. Eleven (or whatever it is) transfers and/or decommits in three years does not scream stability in my opinion.

[XU 87]

I guess the sarcasm was lost on you. He made the point that EVERY school experiences this.......all I asked was to show me two other schools with like volume. Eleven (or whatever it is) transfers and/or decommits in three years does not scream stability in my opinion.

No, I said "just about every school must be in turmoil" if we are using your definition of "turmoil" as being transfers, decommits and assistant coaches leaving for higher paying jobs. But it seems like everyone thinks you're dead wrong.

[Kahns Krazy]

In what comes as no surprise to anyone, I hate the idea behind the title of this thread. I hate that the thread exists, and most of all, I hate the "down thumb" graphic that goes with it.

Over the last thirty years, Xavier has executed on a vision that led to the construction of the Cintas Center, a tradition of winning and frequent trips to the tournament, capped by this year's entry into the Big East conference.

We didn't get there overnight, and we didn't get it by making knee-jerk reactions to a bad loss, or even a bad season.

I have faith in the program. I hope that Mack is a successful part of it for a long time. If the University decides that at some point, we are heading in a different direction, I will support that too.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and mine is different than the one expresed by the original post.

[Xtrapass]

yet the year after they all left X made the sweet 16...

Yet we miss the tournament last year, and we're headed in that direction again this year. I think it's fair to say we are feeling the effects of that botched recruiting class.

[xudash]

In what comes as no surprise to anyone, I hate the idea behind the title of this thread. I hate that the thread exists, and most of all, I hate the "down thumb" graphic that goes with it.

Over the last thirty years, Xavier has executed on a vision that led to the construction of the Cintas Center, a tradition of winning and frequent trips to the tournament, capped by this year's entry into the Big East conference.

We didn't get there overnight, and we didn't get it by making knee-jerk reactions to a bad loss, or even a bad season.

I have faith in the program. I hope that Mack is a successful part of it for a long time. If the University decides that at some point, we are heading in a different direction, I will support that too.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and mine is different than the one expresed by the original post.

Public reps where private reps were otherwise disallowed.

[sweet16]

No, I said "just about every school must be in turmoil" if we are using your definition of "turmoil" as being transfers, decommits and assistant coaches leaving for higher paying jobs. But it seems like everyone thinks you're dead wrong.

Nice back-pedal and I see you went back and edited your original post. Not that it really matters but my contention is that the numer of transfers/decommits in Mack's first few years was excessive. You wanted to argue that it happens everywhere. I recognize that it happens everywhere but contend that is doesn't happen to the same degree. I asked that you provide two examples with a like number.........I'm assuming you couldn't find two. And for the record I don't want Chris fired. For someone to even suggest that would imply that they have zero understanding of the probabilty of having his buyout funded. What I did say was that I hope they don't extend his contract after this season and allow for a little more evaluation.

[ammtd34]

Oklahoma State

Austin Grandstaff
Joe Thomasson
Marcus Smart
Cezar Guerrero
Fred Gulley
Darrell Williams
Grayson George
Stevie Clark
Reger Dowell
Roger Franklin
Ray Penn
Jarred Shaw
Kirby Gardner

The first two are future recruits who decommitted. Finding decommitment info for the past is difficult unless they were a big time recruit.

[throwbackmuskie]

Yet we miss the tournament last year, and we're headed in that direction again this year. I think it's fair to say we are feeling the effects of that botched recruiting class.

Not sure two trolling posts allow you to say "we". But let's be honest we moved up in conferences and who thought we would be third right now?

[XUFan09]

Sweet 16, your contention that in Xavier's case it's excessive is simply incorrect. The rise of transfers and decommits is a recent phenomenon to which Xavier has not been immune.

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[muethibp]

Latham and McKenzie were misses anyway, they would've rode the bench their entire careers at X. Canty showed some talent at App State but has been suspended by the coach a couple of times so I don't think him leaving was a big loss either. I will say that messing up that class and all of partial qualifiers who've had to sit out a year is having an effect on this years team. It's amazing that you can have such a huge recruiting miss on two straight years at the beginning of Mack's tenure and still be in the position to make the tournament..

That's one way to look at it. The other way is that we're one player - Christon, a player not likely to be here next year - away from being well under .500.

To the Mack defenders, I guess I would ask, in seriousness, "In what areas do you think he's doing well? In what areas is he a better than average coach? What makes you think that he just wasn't awfully lucky to inherit elite talent (Crawford, Tu, Lyons) in his first years?"

[OH.X.MI]

In what comes as no surprise to anyone, I hate the idea behind the title of this thread. I hate that the thread exists, and most of all, I hate the "down thumb" graphic that goes with it.

Over the last thirty years, Xavier has executed on a vision that led to the construction of the Cintas Center, a tradition of winning and frequent trips to the tournament, capped by this year's entry into the Big East conference.

We didn't get there overnight, and we didn't get it by making knee-jerk reactions to a bad loss, or even a bad season.

I have faith in the program. I hope that Mack is a successful part of it for a long time. If the University decides that at some point, we are heading in a different direction, I will support that too.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and mine is different than the one expresed by the original post.

Agree 100%. Cant help but think the Chris Mack haters on this board have been waiting five years to get away with an absurd thread like this. I thought we could at least wait until the end of the season to evaluate Mack's coaching performance this year... Guess the nay sayers couldn't even wait that long.

[The_Mack_Pack]

That's one way to look at it. The other way is that we're one player - Christon, a player not likely to be here next year - away from being well under .500.

To the Mack defenders, I guess I would ask, in seriousness, "In what areas do you think he's doing well? In what areas is he a better than average coach? What makes you think that he just wasn't awfully lucky to inherit elite talent (Crawford, Tu, Lyons) in his first years?"

A lot of teams who lose their best player would immediately be a lot worse. . OK State was 0-3 while Smart had to sit out. Take McDermott off of Creighton and you have a .500 team. Mack just had a couple of recruiting misses in his first couple of years and some bad luck with losing Lyons and Dez before last season, big whoop. I'm confident in Mack.

[XU 87]

Nice back-pedal and I see you went back and edited your original post. Not that it really matters but my contention is that the numer of transfers/decommits in Mack's first few years was excessive. You wanted to argue that it happens everywhere. I recognize that it happens everywhere but contend that is doesn't happen to the same degree. I asked that you provide two examples with a like number.........I'm assuming you couldn't find two. And for the record I don't want Chris fired. For someone to even suggest that would imply that they have zero understanding of the probabilty of having his buyout funded. What I did say was that I hope they don't extend his contract after this season and allow for a little more evaluation.

I edited my response because I switched two letters (the "r" and the "m") in the word "turmoil" (it's known as a typo). I noticed this typo when I was re-reading my post after you misquoted it.

You made the allegation. Just about everyone (or is it everyone) on this board thinks you're wrong, including me. But since you made the claim, it's your burden to prove your claim. So I suggest you go do your own research to support your allegations. But like I said, if you think transfers, decommits and coaches going to higher paying jobs is "turmoil", then just about every program out there is in turmoil. Our current team alone has four transfers (if we include Stenger) at least one decommit (XUFAN09 says we have two) and have a decommit coming in next year. Decommits and transfers are very common.

[Masterofreality]

I'm Sick of this Thread.

[XUFan09]

Justin Martin and Brandon Randolph

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[casualfan]

Oklahoma State

Austin Grandstaff
Joe Thomasson
Marcus Smart
Cezar Guerrero
Fred Gulley
Darrell Williams
Grayson George
Stevie Clark
Reger Dowell
Roger Franklin
Ray Penn
Jarred Shaw
Kirby Gardner

The first two are future recruits who decommitted. Finding decommitment info for the past is difficult unless they were a big time recruit.

And people in Oklahoma are calling for Ford to be fired...

[NY44]

Transfer students have become an integral part of the game. You know who else transferred to X? Jordan Crawford and Tu Holloway. Take those two away and we lose 2 sweet 16s. Would you rather have Griffin McKenzie be a senior on this team right now? Are we better with him, Canty and Latham or a little bit of "turmoil"?

EDIT: What a spoiled little fan base this has become in the A10. This is what you get when you enter a power conference, games in February that matter. One of the main reasons we're losing is because we don't get to be bailed out by games against Fordham and GW every other week.

[XUFan09]

Tu wasn't a transfer but he was a decommit.

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[NY44]

Tu wasn't a transfer but he was a decommit.

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You ruined my point!

[GoMuskies]

EDIT: What a spoiled little fan base this has become in the A10. This is what you get when you enter a power conference,

More disrespect to the BJ Raymonds, CJ Andersons, Josh Duncans, Derrick Browns, Stanley Burrells and Drew Lavenders of the past. Those guys were champions. Those guys would own this two bit league (okay, they'd be alone in third with a shot at winning the league at home against Nova and Creighton in the last two weeks...but it does not change the point). The problem is not the conference. We're just not as good as we're used to being. That's going to change soon. And we're not bad this year, either. Just on certain days are we bad.

[waggy]

Yeah, if you look at pomeroy team efficiencies of past teams vs current or last years team, I'm sure there is a marked difference.

[XUFan09]

Yeah, if you look at pomeroy team efficiencies of past teams vs current or last years team, I'm sure there is a marked difference.

Yep. Currently 12 spots behind where the 2007 team finished and 20 ahead of the 2006 team. Basically even with the 2012 team and just a little behind the 2011 team.

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[xufan2434]

More disrespect to the BJ Raymonds, CJ Andersons, Josh Duncans, Derrick Browns, Stanley Burrells and Drew Lavenders of the past. Those guys were champions. Those guys would own this two bit league (okay, they'd be alone in third with a shot at winning the league at home against Nova and Creighton in the last two weeks...but it does not change the point). The problem is not the conference. We're just not as good as we're used to being. That's going to change soon. And we're not bad this year, either. Just on certain days are we bad.

Those guys at times were just as frustrating as a lot of the current players we have now. But when push came to shove, those guys didn't back down. Half of that you can't coach, but I do think there's another part of it that you can at least motivate and instill. I just don't know if Mack knows how to do that. I'm not saying he should be gone because of it, but something has to get these guys going and especially on the road. I know he yells at them an awful lot but at what point do you realize that yelling at them and the same result doesn't work?

[XUFan09]

The thing is, earlier in the year, this team had fight, more than I've seen in almost any Xavier team when facing in-game adversity, and this extended to the road when they came back on Alabama. It just doesn't seem there right now.

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[wkrq59]

Mr. Myagi say, "Things not always as seem, Daniel San," I agree. Can't we end this thread? Sick of Mack, take medicine. Chill pill recommended.
:swordfight::whack::tease::slapfight:

[Kahns Krazy]

Yeah, if you look at pomeroy team efficiencies of past teams vs current or last years team, I'm sure there is a marked difference.

This is why I watch basketball games. I just can't wait for the breakdown of the magnitute of the difference of the Pomeroy team efficiency ratings. Catch the excitement!

[West is Best]

Agree 100%. Cant help but think the Chris Mack haters on this board have been waiting five years to get away with an absurd thread like this.

Did you watch the game? Our first offensive possession was a 10 second violation. 4 minutes into the game and we on pace to give up 130 points. The big east players or non big-east players discussion is irrelevant - you don't need high major players to stay within 20 points of the Georgetown team we played Saturday.

The first post of this thread is spot on. It's year 5. I saw some X and O's progress from the staff early in the year, but we've regressed considerably. We have a five star point guard (who has exceed expectations) and yet we're playing ourselves off the bubble. Miller got to the sweet 16 with Dante Jackson at the point.

[OH.X.MI]

Did you watch the game? Our first offensive possession was a 10 second violation. 4 minutes into the game and we on pace to give up 130 points. The big east players or non big-east players discussion is irrelevant - you don't need high major players to stay within 20 points of the Georgetown team we played Saturday.

The first post of this thread is spot on. It's year 5. I saw some X and O's progress from the staff early in the year, but we've regressed considerably. We have a five star point guard (who has exceed expectations) and yet we're playing ourselves off the bubble. Miller got to the sweet 16 with Dante Jackson at the point.

That is fair enough. I don't entirely disagree with some of the earlier basketball critiques of Mack. I was just more fed up with the program being in "chaos" comments.

[NY44]

The problem is not the conference. We're just not as good as we're used to being. That's going to change soon. And we're not bad this year, either. Just on certain days are we bad.

I really disagree. I think we have 3 or 4 losses in the A10 right now and are in sole possession of 2nd place, maybe 3rd. Whether or not this team is as good as usual, that's a big difference.

[Muskie]

I really disagree. I think we have 3 or 4 losses in the A10 right now and are in sole possession of 2nd place, maybe 3rd. Whether or not this team is as good as usual, that's a big difference.

So you're trading for one position in the current A-10 (2nd place) versus being able to play in our current conference where we currently sit in 3rd place?

I think the board is quickly dividing into two factions. The one's that have been around for a long time (MCC to Early A-10), and the fans that have been around since 2000 (Who barely remember Skip Prosser coached here). The lineage and history of those support groups is entirely different (and I think plays into the expectations we're seeing here).

I think there are some (not directing this to you NY44) that have to come to the realization that X will not likely win the Big East year after year. That's not to say I think they won't do well. But this league is a big step up.

[muethibp]

I really disagree. I think we have 3 or 4 losses in the A10 right now and are in sole possession of 2nd place, maybe 3rd. Whether or not this team is as good as usual, that's a big difference.

Sole possession of 2nd place in the A-10? Even though Xavier is 63rd in the RPI and there are two A-10 teams in the top 15? And three in the top 25? And seven - seven - ahead of where Xavier is?

Surely you jest.

The Big East, no doubt, is the place to be for the future. But the A-10 - and Xavier can take some credit for raising the league's profile - is awfully good this year.

[throwbackmuskie]

So you're trading for one position in the current A-10 (2nd place) versus being able to play in our current conference where we currently sit in 3rd place?

I think the board is quickly dividing into two factions. The one's that have been around for a long time (MCC to Early A-10), and the fans that have been around since 2000 (Who barely remember Skip Prosser coached here). The lineage and history of those support groups is entirely different (and I think plays into the expectations we're seeing here).

I think there are some (not directing this to you NY44) that have to come to the realization that X will not likely win the Big East year after year. That's not to say I think they won't do well. But this league is a big step up.

Good post. X's 1st year in the A10 we finished 3rd, after that X took off and minus a year or two either won or was top 3 in the A10. In the MCC X was pretty much always a top 3 teams. The point is X is right where it always has been, a top 3 team in the conference. At the begininng of the year X was predicted #7. I would say at this point the team exceeded expectations, and with the major influx of talent coming in next year the future is bright. The team has improved from last year, that is a good sign. Something to think about since 1982 Xavier has only had 1 losing season.

[xuwin]

Did you watch the game? Our first offensive possession was a 10 second violation. 4 minutes into the game and we on pace to give up 130 points. The big east players or non big-east players discussion is irrelevant - you don't need high major players to stay within 20 points of the Georgetown team we played Saturday.

The first post of this thread is spot on. It's year 5. I saw some X and O's progress from the staff early in the year, but we've regressed considerably. We have a five star point guard (who has exceed expectations) and yet we're playing ourselves off the bubble. Miller got to the sweet 16 with Dante Jackson at the point.

Our point guard was not a 5 star recruit and neither was our 2 guard.

[ammtd34]

Our point guard was not a 5 star recruit and neither was our 2 guard.

http://xavier.scout.com/a.z?s=442&p=8&c=1&nid=5309047

[xuwin]

http://xavier.scout.com/a.z?s=442&p=8&c=1&nid=5309047

I stand corrected on our 2 guard. What about our point guard?

[ammtd34]

I stand corrected on our 2 guard. What about our point guard?

I don't know. Did someone say he was a 5 star recruit?

[NY44]

So you're trading for one position in the current A-10 (2nd place) versus being able to play in our current conference where we currently sit in 3rd place?

I think there are some (not directing this to you NY44) that have to come to the realization that X will not likely win the Big East year after year. That's not to say I think they won't do well. But this league is a big step up.

I wouldn't trade back to the A10 at all, but we would have a better record there and a lot less complaining on the boards. I agree with you 100%. It's a bit ridiculous to expect to win the BE every year, this will be a much more cyclical conference for us. I'm sure this has been a much more grueling season for the entire program. We can lose to anyone in the BE on any given night and no one in the program or the fan base is used to that.

[NY44]

Sole possession of 2nd place in the A-10? Even though Xavier is 63rd in the RPI and there are two A-10 teams in the top 15? And three in the top 25? And seven - seven - ahead of where Xavier is?

Surely you jest.

The Big East, no doubt, is the place to be for the future. But the A-10 - and Xavier can take some credit for raising the league's profile - is awfully good this year.

I could have done more due diligence on this, but I just looked for an A10 team who competed with a BE team similarly to how we did. I landed on UMass who had played a close game to Providence.

EDIT: Top to bottom the BE is light years ahead of the A10.

[Retire33]

So you're trading for one position in the current A-10 (2nd place) versus being able to play in our current conference where we currently sit in 3rd place?

I think the board is quickly dividing into two factions. The one's that have been around for a long time (MCC to Early A-10), and the fans that have been around since 2000 (Who barely remember Skip Prosser coached here). The lineage and history of those support groups is entirely different (and I think plays into the expectations we're seeing here).

I think there are some (not directing this to you NY44) that have to come to the realization that X will not likely win the Big East year after year. That's not to say I think they won't do well. But this league is a big step up.

Muskie is exactly right. I pointed this out during the dregs of the season last year. I feel like some entitlement has crept into the fan base over the past 7-10 years. The "new money" is very much in the opinion that X should be dominant all years and perform in the tourney; which at times is unreasonable.

I have my problems with Chris, but those are mostly with his stubborn ways. I believe he is a good fit and coach for the University and the right one to lead us into this new conference and new set of challenges.

Times and expectations have changed over the last 20 years. That doesn't mean, as a fan, you can not remember where X has been and how bright the future is. That said, please have some prospective on this season and withhold negative thoughts (not judgment but true negativity) until success is determined.

[Classof1985]

This is something everyone will have to get used to. The overall quality of teams in the Big East is better than the old A-10. Right now, there is not a team in the Big East with a sub-150 RPI (per realtimerpi). There are going to be more losses in this league. The talent difference between teams is much smaller (if not nonexistent). Coaching, determination, and the desire to play hard on every possession will play a larger role in success or failure.

But isn't this why X made the move to the Big East? To play up from the A-10?

Everyone is adjusting - Chris Mack, the players, and (maybe especially) the fans. X is not the biggest boy on the block any more. Now there are some other boys just as big. The definition of success is a little different.

This is not Xavier's best team. It probably isn't even the best team of the last five years. But it's probably two wins away from the NCAA tournament. And who knows what will happen then?

[xuwin]

I don't know. Did someone say he was a 5 star recruit?

The post that I was responding to did.

[Lamont Sanford]

[QUOTE=Classof1985;432403] Coaching, determination, and the desire to play hard on every possession will play a larger role in success or failure.
/QUOTE]


We're screwed!

[GIMMFD]

The post that I was responding to did.

4 star. http://xavier.scout.com/a.z?s=442&p=8&c=1&nid=4230492

[LA Muskie]

I'm much more sick of portions of this fan base than I am of Mack. That's all I have to say about this thread.

[vee4xu]

Ha! Be glad we're talking about Mack and not Tay Baker from my days or Krajack from my good buddy MOR's days. Those of you who didn't experience those dark days have no idea how well off X is today with Coach Mack. Both in relative and absolute terms.

[NY44]

I'm much more sick of portions of this fan base than I am of Mack. That's all I have to say about this thread.

Why don't you start a thread about it? (sarcasm)

[Milhouse]

We're in 3rd place in a very tough conference.

God the sky won't stop falling.

[XU2011]

We're in 3rd place in a very tough conference.

God the sky won't stop falling.

We are also 1.5 games out of 7th place in the conference.

We are also on the verge of missing the NCAA for the 2nd consecutive year. Only the 2nd time that has happened in 25+ years.

[NY44]

This thread:

1387

[Muskie]

We are also 1.5 games out of 7th place in the conference.

We are also on the verge of missing the NCAA for the 2nd consecutive year. Only the 2nd time that has happened in 25+ years.

While not desirable, having lived through some of the Prosser years, the university and Program will still go on. We missed the Tournament in 99 and 00 (my Junior and Senior year). Things turned out alright.

[GoMuskies]

Things turned out alright.

I'm certainly not advocating for dumping Mack, but things only really turned out alright back then because Prosser left.

[Muskie]

I'm certainly not advocating for dumping Mack, but things only really turned out alright back then because Prosser left.
Perhaps. It could have also been David West?

[GoMuskies]

That helped. But Skip had West for two years. And the real breakthrough was post-West. Matta bringing Sean Miller with him to Cincinnati was as important as anything else.

[ammtd34]

We are also 1.5 games out of 7th place in the conference.

We are also on the verge of missing the NCAA for the 2nd consecutive year. Only the 2nd time that has happened in 25+ years.

We're also on the verge of making the tournament. There are so many verges.

[XU2011]

We're also on the verge of making the tournament. There are so many verges.

Let's check in again next week.

[vee4xu]

Let's check in again next week.

Heck, why wait until then? We'll know plenty in about 6 hours from now.

[sweet16]

I edited my response because I switched two letters (the "r" and the "m") in the word "turmoil" (it's known as a typo). I noticed this typo when I was re-reading my post after you misquoted it.

You made the allegation. Just about everyone (or is it everyone) on this board thinks you're wrong, including me. But since you made the claim, it's your burden to prove your claim. So I suggest you go do your own research to support your allegations. But like I said, if you think transfers, decommits and coaches going to higher paying jobs is "turmoil", then just about every program out there is in turmoil. Our current team alone has four transfers (if we include Stenger) at least one decommit (XUFAN09 says we have two) and have a decommit coming in next year. Decommits and transfers are very common.

I'm not your clerk.....do your own research. You're the one who made the ridiculous claim that just about every school experiences this kind of volatility. So if that's the case you shouldn't have any problem at all finding ONE example where a school lost 3 or more assistant coaches AND had 4 or more decommits AND 6 or more transfers in three years.

[LA Muskie]

We turmoiled our way into the Big East. VCU and Dayton have nothing on our turmoil. Maybe they should learn some lessons from us.

[Lloyd Christmas]

Is that the deafening sound of silence that I hear on this thread?

[Cheesehead]

10 year extension for Mack!

[vee4xu]

Heck, why wait until then? We'll know plenty in about 6 hours from now.

Well, things are looking up, now aren't they?

[gladdenguy]

Come on Mack. Now beat the top 10 team Saturday.

[Masterofreality]

Is that the deafening sound of silence that I hear on this thread?

Or just the thud of Pimp23, Sweet16 and Green Mamba throwing themselves off buildings in NYC.

[xufan2434]

Last night was a great win and had every X fan pumped for this season having some hope in March. I'll give Mack credit where it's due, he had a better game plan than he has had the last couple weeks and finally they came out wanting to play. He's been playing Reynolds more and more and finally it paid off big time for him. Clearly he knew something.

Now back it up in front of a home crowd and guard the damn shooters!!

[UCGRAD4X]

Now back it up in front of a home crowd and guard the damn shooters!!

These are two important components.

Xavier (as most teams, with the possible exception of Creighton and Loyola Marymount) lives and dies on defense. I am not a golfer but I know the expression "drive for show, put for dough" and it seems like a good parallel for offense vs. defense. Offense makes for a good show, but defense wins championships.

It is easier (IMHO) to keep up the energy needed for consistent pressure on defense when you have a good home crown pumping you up!!!!

It is amazing how the seasons turns on a dime: post G'town - NFW / post SJU - there is hope….not that I had any doubts...:tease:

[profson]

Given the title of this thread, you may be amused by an observation from a poster on a SJU forum:

"Speaking of timeouts, the one Mack banged just before the 12 minute TV was masterful. We had just gotten it to 1 on a Jordan layup and the crowd was louder than it had been all game. He completely took the air out of the building, they came out of the TO and hit a 3, and we never got closer than 4 the rest of the way. Not waiting for the 12 minute TV to call one - and then getting the benefit of essentially a double TO with the 12 minute TV included to further deflate the Garden - was really strong coaching."

[GoMuskies]

That's a good point by the SJU fan. On the other side, what happend out of that timeout he took with about 2 minutes left in the first half? We had a full shot clock, but Myles Davis tried to drive and took an off-balance shot that I think the SJU player blocked with his belly button. I assumed Mack had something specific in mind when he called the timeout, but I doubt that was it.

[Masterofreality]

Given the title of this thread, you may be amused by an observation from a poster on a SJU forum:

"Speaking of timeouts, the one Mack banged just before the 12 minute TV was masterful. We had just gotten it to 1 on a Jordan layup and the crowd was louder than it had been all game. He completely took the air out of the building, they came out of the TO and hit a 3, and we never got closer than 4 the rest of the way. Not waiting for the 12 minute TV to call one - and then getting the benefit of essentially a double TO with the 12 minute TV included to further deflate the Garden - was really strong coaching."

Yes....Yes it was. And Dee 's three was the biggest shot of the game, all with the shot clock running down. Give our PG some props too.

Good to see you last night, Profs. CU in Newark next week.

[The_Mack_Pack]

I don't think people credit Mack enough on Xavier's out-of-bounds plays and plays out of timeouts. Xavier gets a TON of good looks and easy baskets in those scenarios.

[mistabeecee41]

I've had my doubts, especially in terms of his stubbornness, but gotta give props to Mack last night. We'll see how he progresses over the final 3. As mentioned before, we play the best 3 point shooting teams in the conference and our 3 point defense has been abysmal. The pack line is perfect for teams like SJU - and it worked to perfection last night. Let's see if he makes any adjustments or if we're back to complaining in a week.

[nuts4xu]

I can get used to performances like we saw last night. We showed heart and toughness, which haven't been found in most of our previous games.

Turn the page, and let's figure a way to beat Dougie McBuckets and his gang from Omaha this Saturday.

[paulxu]

but Myles Davis tried to drive and took an off-balance shot that I think the SJU player blocked with his belly button.

Are you saying our guy is short...or what?

[XUFan09]

That's a good point by the SJU fan. On the other side, what happend out of that timeout he took with about 2 minutes left in the first half? We had a full shot clock, but Myles Davis tried to drive and took an off-balance shot that I think the SJU player blocked with his belly button. I assumed Mack had something specific in mind when he called the timeout, but I doubt that was it.

Yeah, since calling plays out of TOs appears to be one of Mack's strengths, I imagine that is more on Myles.

Sent from my DROID RAZR HD using Tapatalk

[gladdenguy]

I do love Mack calling plays out of timeouts but the possession where Dee hit that three was a breakdown of the initial play and Dee put one up with time running out and it went in. That was not what the play was designed to do. Dee hit a big shot. Props to him.

[XU05]

^Edit: Beat me to it.

Honestly, out of Mack's timeout just before the under-12, the drawn-up play seemed to have gotten busted. Dee was forced to shoot a semi-contested three within the last 5 seconds of the shotclock if I remember correctly. Just my $.02.
In general, though, I do agree that Mack has been very good at both inbounds plays and with the clipboard in his hands during timeouts. I do think that his usage of timeouts could be better, but had no complaints yesterday.

[danaandvictory]

I don't think people credit Mack enough on Xavier's out-of-bounds plays and plays out of timeouts. Xavier gets a TON of good looks and easy baskets in those scenarios.

Yes, I think that is by far Mack's best attribute as a game coach.

[Cheesehead]

Mack ran same play for Reynolds twice where Martin ran through lane underneath basket, Semaj came up and did back screen on Reynolds defender, ball was swung to Martin on wing and Martin hit Reynolds underneath basket for quick pass and dunk. It was wonderful.

[XUFan09]

Mack ran same play for Reynolds twice where Martin ran through lane underneath basket, Semaj came up and did back screen on Reynolds defender, ball was swung to Martin on wing and Martin hit Reynolds underneath basket for quick pass and dunk. It was wonderful.

Like I said in Live Chat, Martin gets at least an assist per game off that play, usually passing the ball back into Stainbrook. He has a rocket arm on those passes too.

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[sweet16]

We turmoiled our way into the Big East. VCU and Dayton have nothing on our turmoil. Maybe they should learn some lessons from us.

So you're suggesting that the reason why we're in the Big East is because of Chris Mack? Interesting.

[LA Muskie]

So you're suggesting that the reason why we're in the Big East is because of Chris Mack? Interesting.
I'm suggesting that Chris Mack is a big part of why Xavier is attractive as a program. Along with his predecessors who also helped get our program to where it is today.

[OH.X.MI]

So you're suggesting that the reason why we're in the Big East is because of Chris Mack? Interesting.

How can CM's role in the last 5 years not be part of the reason why we are in the BE? Three NCAA appearances in 4 years, 2 Sweet 16's. Yes, I understand most of that was with kids he didn't recruit. But come on, the average fan just looks at the wins, losses, and trips to the dance, not who recruited who. XU has continued to have a winning program under Chris Mack. That translates into being a reason why we are in the BE.

[XMuskieFTW]

Yea, he sucks

[XULucho27]

I'm so sick of Shelvin Mack.

[mid major]

I think the title should be "Sick of Mick".

[Retire33]

*close thread*

[Kahns Krazy]

Seriously. Who wants wins in March? I'm sick of this.

[Titanxman04]

Seriously. Who wants wins in March? I'm sick of this.

I hate winning big games in March. Fire the whole staff.

[Cheesehead]

I blame Mack for the mess in the Ukraine and the Titan storm

[brownlavender]

Seriously though if he were a good coach wouldn't we be getting more production out of the walk ons

[Muskie]

And I suppose this has run it's course.