Should Xavier Play in Exempt Tourneys?

[Masterofreality]

Ok, this has really been grating on me.

The Borecats have not played in any early season "Exempt Tournaments" this year. They, instead, played a trio of cream puffs and are 16th in the RPI with an 81 strength of schedule. They have 3 losses. Xavier, by comparison, has 8 losses and is 49 RPI with a 51 SOS. 3 of which happened in one weekend in the Bahamas. If XU had also played 3 cupcakes, they would have only 5 losses and a probable Top 20 RPI. Of course, Xavier beat SucKS by 17.

Of course, one year, Xavier made their year by winning a tournament, thanks in large part to a half court shot by Dante Jackson, but for the most part, these Tournaments have been nothing but frustrating and damaging.

So.... Should Xavier continue to play in these exempt Tournaments? It sure seems that they have not been to our advantage.

[GoMuskies]

Keep playing. I cannot think of a year that was ruined after an exempt tournament that wouldnlt have been ruined for some other reason. We get opportunities to play interestin opponents that we'd never get a chance to schedule absent the exempt tournaments.

[LadyMuskie]

I'm not a huge fan because I don't think we make the most of the opportunity, or at least we haven't most years. We often seem distracted on these trips and play like crap. But, I realize that it looks good to the selection committee to step outside of the comfort zone and play on a neutral court. Plus, in some ways it's the only way to get some teams to play us (although maybe being in the Big East will change that or make it unnecessary to play those teams). Additionally, there is the theory that it gets us ready for March. Although, that last one is the weakest reason, IMO, to play the tournament. If we play like we did this year, for example, I'm not sure how ready that gets us for March - especially if those games are what keep us from playing in March.

Personally, I don't think it's a bad idea to look at the basketball environment right now and tweak the schedule to our favor. Would it help us more if we played another home game and an away game against big conference teams? In other words, I wouldn't be too distraught if the team stayed home and played a couple of sure win games and another big six conference game.

[LadyMuskie]

And if we're just scheduling these tournaments so that our fans can travel, then I'm 200% against the tournaments! I get that we need to keep the deep pockets happy, but find another way to do that.

[xsteve1]

X may want to forget about conference tourney's as well because for the most part those have been unspectacular as well.
I say keep playing in them.

[Cheesehead]

I didn't reply because I have not clue on this one but X's track record is not great.

[RoadWarrior]

Would you rather play teams like: Bellarmine, Findlay, Bellarmine, Miami, ETSU and Coppin State or: Baylor, Memphis, Alabam, Iowa, Pittsburgh, Colorado?
Early season tournaments allow us to play competition that otherwise wouldn't play us, let alone on a neutral court. They're also a great recruiting tool for 18-19 year old kids.
Great overall exposure...especially if X wins!

[RoseyMuskie]

I think it's a question that should at least be reviewed by the staff.

I wouldn't mind playing two cupcakes and then play a big name program on the road or at a neutral site like MSG (like OSU/ND for example) to replace. Don't know if Xavier has a large enough fan base to be an attractive option for an MSG game, however. But I'm pretty confident X could find a tough opponent to sign a one year deal with and play at their place with no return to Cintas.

Worse case scenario is we end up at 2-1. Right now, we'd be playing for seeding if that were the case. I think this is magnified this season just because if we had one or two more wins at this moment, we'd be in a lot better position.

[gladdenguy]

Yes they should play them if they are invited and they actually go down to compete.
No if they are gonna go down there and sleep walk like every year since Puerto Rico.

Either way. Who cares. They need to win a game on the road against a decent team to avoid not going to the tourney for 2 straight years.

[MHettel]

I thought that the tourney only counts as one game on the schedule. Hence the designation as "exempt"

[xubrew]

I thought that the tourney only counts as one game on the schedule. Hence the designation as "exempt"

If you play in a conference tournament, which everyone other than NJIT and the Ivy League does, you're allowed 29 games without an exempt tournament, or 27 games plus an exempt tournament. You can schedule up to four games within that exempt tournament, which is what we did because the Abeline Christian game was technically a Battle 4 Atlantis game.

[Masterofreality]

I thought that the tourney only counts as one game on the schedule. Hence the designation as "exempt"


If you play in a conference tournament, which everyone other than NJIT and the Ivy League does, you're allowed 29 games without an exempt tournament, or 27 games plus an exempt tournament. You can schedule up to four games within that exempt tournament, which is what we did because the Abeline Christian game was technically a Battle 4 Atlantis game.

So, please explain? The Borecats are already 23-3 with 5 league games remaining without any "exempt" tournament. That is a total of 31 games- the same that Xavier will play.

[casualfan]

So, please explain? The Borecats are already 23-3 with 5 league games remaining without any "exempt" tournament. That is a total of 31 games- the same that Xavier will play.

They played in an exempt tourney with NC State and a few other teams...

[xubrew]

So, please explain? The Borecats are already 23-3 with 5 league games remaining without any "exempt" tournament. That is a total of 31 games- the same that Xavier will play.

Technically, albeit not practically, they were in one. The Global Sports Shootout.

What teams are now doing is collectively scheduling each other, and calling it a non-bracketed exempt tournament.

[xubrew]

They played in an exempt tourney with NC State and a few other teams...

NCCU, Appalachian State, and Campbell were the other teams.

[Masterofreality]

Technically, albeit not practically, they were in one. The Global Sports Shootout.

What teams are now doing is collectively scheduling each other, and calling it a non-bracketed exempt tournament.

Well, that is sure some way to get around it. Every game the Borecats played was at home...against crap competition. OK, let's say that Xavier arranges the "Queen City Classic" and plays Prarie View, Texas State, St. Francis, Pa. and Radford...all at home. That is effectively what SucKS has done.

Semantics. You know what I'm talking about. Real neutral site venues and real D1 teams. Don't confuse the issue with red herrings.

[casualfan]

Well, that is sure some way to get around it. Every game the Borecats played was at home...against crap competition. OK, let's say that Xavier arranges the "Queen City Classic" and plays Prarie View, Texas State, St. Francis, Pa. and Radford...all at home. That is effectively what SucKS has done.

Semantics. You know what I'm talking about. Real neutral site venues and real D1 teams. Don't confuse the issue with red herrings.

I don't want you to take this the wrong way, but is there a reason why you're so worried about what UC is doing?

[Masterofreality]

I don't want you to take this the wrong way, but is there a reason why you're so worried about what UC is doing?

I really don't give a crap, but it is the perfect comparison to what our schedule has been.

So, back to the question, do we go to (choose) Orlando, Puerto Rico, Hawaii, Virgin Islands, etc?

[Always Learning]

A really good question, with good reason to play, and good reasons not to. I think that we just ran over those other guys in Cincinnati because while they were playing what amounted to skins vs shirts competition, we played very real major college competition.
Then again, I see the reasoning in playing three more home games against sure wins as far as the W-L record is concerned. However, I don't think The Committee looks at a final record os a team being 21-10 that won three cupcake victories at home and gives them more weight than a team (like us) who finished 21-10 and lost three games on the road against major opponents.
I think the best of these worlds is get into the Coaches vs Cancer event. There, its a game at home and the reward is a trip to NYC. If you lose the "home game --- its a game you shouldn't) you will play two more games in the "losers" bracket. format.
I'd like another shot in the pre-season NIT (remember "whatshisname" blowing it against Stanford in the second round?) It is a good field, and a chance for two home games and then two in NYC.
Lastly, will there be a BE Challenge against another conference in the making .. vs the A-10 maybe? There's a chance to play a couple games other than the three games in three days format that I do not like!

[xubrew]

Well, that is sure some way to get around it. Every game the Borecats played was at home...against crap competition. OK, let's say that Xavier arranges the "Queen City Classic" and plays Prarie View, Texas State, St. Francis, Pa. and Radford...all at home. That is effectively what SucKS has done.

Semantics. You know what I'm talking about. Real neutral site venues and real D1 teams. Don't confuse the issue with red herrings.

You asked for an explanation. I was just answering your question as to why they were playing 31 games.

[Masterofreality]

You asked for an explanation. I was just answering your question as to why they were playing 31 games.

I get it. Sorry for the strident response, Brew. I guess I'm a bit pissed that the NCAA allows such tomfoolery to occur. Why don't they just come out with a 31 game schedule approval?

[xudash]

And if we're just scheduling these tournaments so that our fans can travel, then I'm 200% against the tournaments! I get that we need to keep the deep pockets happy, but find another way to do that.

You actually brought up a very good point that made me think of something we should consider. Xavier going to the Bahamas or to some other location with palm trees early in the season definitely should no longer be a top priority if you accept that it is imperative that we make the Big East tournament in New York City a success.

Forgetting the deep pockets aspect of this for a moment, whomever desires to travel to significant Xavier contests may be better off saving their money for the Big Apple.

100 or 200 fans saving money for New York instead of going to these exempt tournaments could help the cause. I don't know what the numbers are, but it was just a thought.

[xubrew]

I get it. Sorry for the strident response, Brew. I guess I'm a bit pissed that the NCAA allows such tomfoolery to occur. Why don't they just come out with a 31 game schedule approval?

...or, just 30 games. For everybody. We can keep the tournaments, but they just count as three (or four) of the 30 games.

I think the NCAA allows it because schools figured out how to bend the rules, and the NCAA just didn't care enough about it to do anything. So, they didn't. But, yes, if you can find five teams from different conferences that agree to collectively schedule each other, and all the games are played within twelve days (I think), that can be an exempt tournament. Even though it's not really a tournament.

[sirthought]

The name of the game in the non conference is preparing your team for conference play. Ultimately, you want to get every player involved, on the same page and executing offensive/defensive game plans. Now, if you can do that when traveling far away, playing tougher teams, then great. But if you can win your conference, then you are in the NCAA anyhow and don't need the big non conference tournament.

Some of the tournaments are scheduled so early in the season that I am concerned players aren't ready. Especially if you have a young team, they haven't gotten their sea legs yet. When considering this, I'd say the route UC has taken isn't the worst strategy.

UC bench players probably get more playing time with the lighter competition. It is Division 1, so teams usually have decent starting 5 players, they just usually get tired out. But coaches can still see who is executing plays correctly and what needs attention.

UC seems to get enough decent games on the schedule that their resume will have a shot. But UC was always upfront that the lighter non conference was always to counterbalance the tougher Big East schedule. Cronin has said he hopes that changes somewhat now that they're in the AAC.

[X-man]

I think that playing in these tournaments makes sense for a whole bunch of reasons, but I also think that Coach Mack doesn't do enough to keep his players focused on the tournament instead of a vacation. I am sure it is tough to do, but other coaches seem to do it and so should Mack. There were stories circulating about players violating curfew in the Bahamas, and this isn't the first time our players haven't "locked in" on the business at hand instead of just having fun. Sure there must be a balance, but the needle seems to far in the "vaca zone" when we play in one of these tournaments.

[LA Muskie]

Personally I don't think the solution to not losing games should be not playing the games.

[XUFan09]

Personally I don't think the solution to not losing games should be not playing the games.

I like this answer.

[blueblob06]

Do we know if the next few years are scheduled yet? I know that November of 2017 is the Nike Elite tourney but not sure what else X has booked.

I know Mack had said he'd try his best to get another tourney out in CA (maybe Anaheim again) while Randolph is on the team.

[Classof1985]

While Campbell and Appalachian State were sub-200 RPI teams, NC State is currently #59. North Carolina Central is #125 in the RPI. They made the Tournament last year and are a good bet to return (currently 19-5 and leading the MEAC). Not Iowa or Tennessee, but hardly slouches, either.

Xavier's problem this year is not that they lost to Iowa or Tennessee. It's that they lost to USC, Providence, and Seton Hall. Losing to teams below you in the RPI (Providence) is not good. Losing to teams ranked sub-100 (USC, Seton Hall) is worse.

You can gripe about UC's schedule all you want, but the truth is that UC has a neutral court win against Pitt, regarded as on of the better teams in the ACC. Plus conference road wins against Memphis and Louisville and a home win against UConn, two of three of whom are ranked and will easily make the tournament. X's best road win is against RPI#87 Alabama, and of course the best neutral court win is against UC.

As Jay Bilas likes to say, it's note who you play, it's who you beat. At this stage of the season, Xavier needs to beat someone else (Villanova or Creighton) to get some more cred and make sure of a tournament berth.

Playing in exempt tournaments is not bad, unless you fail to win. That happened this year to X. Xavier has had some pretty good tournament results in the past.

[Classof1985]

...or, just 30 games. For everybody. We can keep the tournaments, but they just count as three (or four) of the 30 games.

I think the NCAA allows it because schools figured out how to bend the rules, and the NCAA just didn't care enough about it to do anything. So, they didn't. But, yes, if you can find five teams from different conferences that agree to collectively schedule each other, and all the games are played within twelve days (I think), that can be an exempt tournament. Even though it's not really a tournament.

Too much TV money out there not to have the exempt tournaments in their current format. If you get picked to play in an exempt tournament someplace like the Bahamas, you get paid pretty well, because TV is paying the tournament organizers.

[xubrew]

Too much TV money out there not to have the exempt tournaments in their current format. If you get picked to play in an exempt tournament someplace like the Bahamas, you get paid pretty well, because TV is paying the tournament organizers.

A lot of people think that, but it's not the case.

The Battle 4 Atlantis pays roughly $150k per team. That's $50k per game. That's less per game than what most teams make for being the road team in a buy game. Actually, it may be less than that, since we technically played four games. I'm not sure how the game against Abilene Christian worked.

The Battle 4 Atlantis pays more than anyone else, I believe. It's a huge misconception that these tournaments are big money makers for the schools involved. The truth of the matter is that, like bowl games, the majority of teams who play in exempt tournaments actually lose money doing it.

[Kahns Krazy]

I hate the pussy ass idea that we've been hurt in these games so we should run away. Figure out a way to capitalize on these great opportunities. The only reason I care what Cronin is up to is to make sure we aren't doing it the same way.

The Final 4 is a neutral site tournament. I want to play in it and win it. The more practice we get the better.

[THRILLHOUSE]

Do we know if the next few years are scheduled yet? I know that November of 2017 is the Nike Elite tourney but not sure what else X has booked.

I know Mack had said he'd try his best to get another tourney out in CA (maybe Anaheim again) while Randolph is on the team.

X was originally supposed to play in the Old Spice tourney next season, but looks like that is up in the air. Someone recently asked Mario Mercurio on Twitter if it would be safe to book that Orlando trip and this was his response:

"can't give away too much info just yet. I would hold off on buying those tickets for the time being. :-)"

[danaandvictory]

Playing in high-profile exempt tournaments every year was an important part of Xavier's recruiting portfolio prior to the Big East. Make up for the occasional weakness in conference exposure by jetting to a destination and playing high-profile nationally televised games over the holidays. As the most desirable team in the A-10, they were a fixture in those events.

Although I see MOR's point, I don't expect it to change even with the conference upgrade. X just needs to play better in these events and it will take care of itself.

[xudash]

Are we still in that big, exclusive tournament Nike was planning? No more than two teams from each conference, Xavier being one of the teams from the A10 - at the time?

I've lost track of that one.

[xubrew]

Well, that is sure some way to get around it. Every game the Borecats played was at home...against crap competition. OK, let's say that Xavier arranges the "Queen City Classic" and plays Prarie View, Texas State, St. Francis, Pa. and Radford...all at home. That is effectively what SucKS has done.

Semantics. You know what I'm talking about. Real neutral site venues and real D1 teams. Don't confuse the issue with red herrings.

A Queen City Classic, or Miami Valley Classic, or All Ohio Classic, is actually an interesting idea.

Xavier, Dayton, Cincinnati, (Ohio or Miami), Wright State, Ohio State and Northern Kentucky are all in different conferences. If five of them agreed to play each other within the span of two weeks, you'd technically have an exempt tournament. The games could all be at campus sites with return games the following year.

[THRILLHOUSE]

Are we still in that big, exclusive tournament Nike was planning? No more than two teams from each conference, Xavier being one of the teams from the A10 - at the time?

I've lost track of that one.

X, Georgetown and Butler were picked for that tournament. I'd assume one of them will probably get replaced (likely X or Butler), but not 100% sure on that.

[Masterofreality]

While Campbell and Appalachian State were sub-200 RPI teams, NC State is currently #59. North Carolina Central is #125 in the RPI. They made the Tournament last year and are a good bet to return (currently 19-5 and leading the MEAC). Not Iowa or Tennessee, but hardly slouches, either.

You can gripe about UC's schedule all you want, but the truth is that UC has a neutral court win against Pitt, regarded as on of the better teams in the ACC. .

Looks like Burrcats has returned, under another non de plume.

The Borecats played all of those games at home, not a neutral site venue. It's not just who you play, but where.

And Pitt hasn't beaten a Top 50 RPI team all year. I wouldn't be hanging my hat on that one too much.

[Classof1985]

Looks like Burrcats has returned, under another non de plume.

The Borecats played all of those games at home, not a neutral site venue. It's not just who you play, but where.

And Pitt hasn't beaten a Top 50 RPI team all year. I wouldn't be hanging my hat on that one too much.

Actually, Pitt beat Stanford, who is currently 47/48, depending on whose RPI formula you want to look at.

And that was one of four games I cited, so I am hardly "hanging my hat" on that one game. Cincinnati is 5-3 against the RPI top 50, including two games on the road and one on a neutral court.

Except for beating UC at US Bank, Xavier has really struggled away from the Cintas Center - 3-4 on the road, 1-3 on neutral courts. So if it's who you beat and where you beat 'em, who has the better resume?

I still think Xavier is in the tourney. But X if going to get a better seed, a win over Creighton or Villanova would seem to be a must.

And for the record, I am not Burrcats, although I will admit to being a graduate of UC and a Bearcat fan. Unlike some of my peers, however, I also root for Xavier about 363 or so days a year.

[Masterofreality]

Well, looks like this poll is a runaway train.

I endorse, but can't we win a few games?

[GoMuskies]

can't we win a few games?

That seems like the proper solution.

[XUFan09]

If Stain's bank shot against Iowa had gone in, we might be taking a very different perspective based on recent history.

[Classof1985]

Well, looks like this poll is a runaway train.

I endorse, but can't we win a few games?

That is the key. Exempt tournaments are a good test of where your team stands. But they can look like a "disaster" in hindsight if you don't win games. X has had some pretty good success in exempt tournaments. This year was clearly an outlier.