Cronin Extension

[casualfan]

Rumors flying on twitter he's getting bumped to $2.2 mil a year through '21-'22.

We need to pay Mr. Mack.

[GoMuskies]

Wow, he can get his teeth whitened now.

That's crazy money for a little cretin like that.

[DC Muskie]

He is going to buy a jet now?

[Masterofreality]

Rumors flying on twitter he's getting bumped to $2.2 mil a year through '21-'22.

We need to pay Mr. Mack.

This....like I've been saying.

[casualfan]

People can make jokes all they want to, but this is serious.

If we want to be a big time basketball school we need to start acting like one.

We don't currently pay our coach like the coach of a top program. If we want a guy to stick around for the long haul X needs to step up and pay market value.

[xu82]

Rumors flying on twitter he's getting bumped to $2.2 mil a year through '21-'22.

We need to pay Mr. Mack.

Absolutely! Do we know what his total compensation is? I doubt it's enough, but I hope it's at least fair and reasonable. I'm sick of replacing these guys, especially without one Mr. Bobinski. Not to doubt the new AD, but Bobo had the magic touch!

[GoMuskies]

We certainly don't need to overreact to UC making a horrible, horrible mistake.

[xu82]

People can make jokes all they want to, but this is serious.

If we want to be a big time basketball school we need to start acting like one.

We don't currently pay our coach like the coach of a top program. If we want a guy to stick around for the long haul X needs to step up and pay market value.

Again, absolutely right. We are one good elite eight (or dare I say final four?) away from a serious crisis. Kind of ironic that a great run could be our ruin...

[casualfan]

Again, absolutely right. We are one good elite eight (or dare I say final four?) away from a serious crisis. Kind of ironic that a great run could be our ruin...

Even a sweet 16.

[GoMuskies]

Again, absolutely right. We are one good elite eight (or dare I say final four?) away from a serious crisis. Kind of ironic that a great run could be our ruin...

Is there some shortage of coaching talent out there that didn't exist in 1994, 2001, 2004 and 2009?

[xu82]

Is there some shortage of coaching talent out there that didn't exist in 1994, 2001, 2004 and 2009?

What scares me is we have someone new making that call. Maybe it turns out great, but it concerns me. We would have good options given our reputation, conference and facilities, but every time a change is made it's a risk. Pay the man fairly and reduce the risk. (And for all I know they're already doing that.)

[GoMuskies]

What scares me is we have someone new making that call.

Bobinski didn't hire Staak, Gillen or Prosser. Or Miller.

[xu82]

Again, do we have any clue if what Mack's total compensation package is? Being private has advantages and disadvantages - because I want to know. (That may be the only disadvantage, but I still want to know.)

[xu82]

Bobinski didn't hire Staak, Gillen or Prosser. Or Miller.

But wasn't Bobinski there in another position for the Miller hire? I suspect if he was he was part of the process. The others are sooo long ago and we were at a lower level then than I believe we are now. I'm not saying it's the end of the world we're looking at, I just want us to pay our coaches as competitively as possible. Turnover hurts in a lot of ways, especially recruiting.

[GoMuskies]

It's always risky to have to go out and hire a new coach, and Bobinski did a great job, but I also don't want to overreact to something stupid UC did or overstate Bobinski's importance. He helped elevate the program, sure, but he's obviously not the only guy capable of hiring a good basketball coach at Xavier. And much as I like Mack and hope we make a WISE, careful decision to pay him the right amount of money to stick around, he's also not the only guy capable of getting it done with a whistle and a clipboard at Xavier.

[xu82]

My concern really has nothing to do with anything UC does or doesn't do. It's just been hard watching very good coaches leave and go on to significant success while we start over. No, it wouldn't be the end of the world, but I just hope we're fair and competitive (and as I said earlier, maybe we are - who knows?). I want X to be a destination where coaches want to stay.

[Masterofreality]

Again, do we have any clue if what Mack's total compensation package is? Being private has advantages and disadvantages - because I want to know. (That may be the only disadvantage, but I still want to know.)

Yes....and it is much lower than Coaches with comparable records, although it is higher than any other Xavier employee and is what many would perceive to be generous.

I'll just say that it is below $1 million...but above $500k/yr. No where near what he can make somewhere else. he turned down Tennessee at more than double what he makes.

[94GRAD]

Look who our last two coaches left for. If a top 10/15 program wants Chris, they'll take him. We can't/shouldn't match those kind of numbers.

[GoMuskies]

I think that's what we all want. I just don't want Xavier to do something stupid in chasing that (ie. handing a leprechaun $20 million).

[xu82]

I am definitely not for anything stupid financially. Honestly, I don't know the numbers and I am just tired of going through the process of starting over. I realize we can't compete with "the big boys". But I hope that's a very limited number of programs. Xavier is basically on the map for anyone outside the midwest due to basketball and there's value in that.

[vee4xu]

I think that's what we all want. I just don't want Xavier to do something stupid in chasing that (ie. handing a leprechaun $20 million).

I agree with this line of thinking. In a previous thread on a similar topic some time ago, I said that Xavier cannot be emotional and overpay, just for the sake of overpaying. Sure, Coach Mack is an alum, former team captain, lifetime Cincy resident, etc., but the world if full of very good coaches. Xavier was a plum job before they entered the Big East and doing so has only enhanced the position. It is appropriate to look at what other Big East coaches are earning, compare those to Coach Mack and either offer him an extension a few years down the road, or be ready with a strong counter number if Coach Mack goes out and gets another offer. Nothing that X pays him now will be enough to keep him from being attracted to a big money, Big 6 conference job, so why do so now. If the coach ever does look for greener (pun intended) pastures, X still likely won't be able to match the price, but can give him a solid offer that will hopefully appeal to any sense of loyalty that he has. I think Coach Mack knows he has a great job and he will likely get a nice pay raise and extension soon, but is will never be enough to keep the big money school from dwarfing it. We'll just have to hang out hats on the loyalty card.

[xu82]

Bottom line, let's just hope for crazy success because it's fun in the moment, and it gives you the pick of the litter for replacements. (Or, maybe we win a National Championship or ten and Mack makes people forget John Wooden, but my wife often calls me Eyore so that's just funny for me to even think of.)

[xsteve1]

Not sure this is the idea of the new AD but they should definitely wait to see how next year turns out for them post Kilpatrick. Cronin is not going anywhere because he is a Cincinnati guy and supposedly can't get full custody of his daughter. The fanbase still seems unsure about their likes and dislikes of him. Paying over 2 million in what will be a mid major league (post Louisville) is risky.

[Xavgrad08]

It is amazing the amount of college coaches that are paid over two million. Heck it seems like there are now a lot of coaches that are over 3 million when you include bonuses. The average salary has definitely risen. I figured Cronin would get a contract extension soon. Last year Mick had an offer from Minnesota that was over two million a year. I am guessing Mick's agent used that as leverage. Also, I am guessing we will be seeing Mick on this list very soon. http://www.forbes.com/sites/tomvanriper/2013/03/15/the-most-overpaid-college-basketball-coaches-2

I have no clue what Mack makes. I hope X is compensating him fairly. There are a lot of schools out there that X can't out bid for a coach. Arizona and Ohio State are two of those schools. However, you have to pay a coach like Mack over a million a year. Do that and make sure you are giving him the resources to keep him happy. For example a private jet for recruiting, nice facilities, fair assistant coaches salary etc. X might need to get creative with incentives and bonuses. I know Memphis was paying into an annuity for Calipari years ago. I trust the people in place at X.

[xu82]

http://www.forbes.com/sites/tomvanriper/2013/03/15/the-most-overpaid-college-basketball-coaches-2

I have no clue what Mack makes. I hope X is compensating him fairly. There are a lot of schools out there that X can't out bid for a coach. Arizona and Ohio State are two of those schools. However, you have to pay a coach like Mack over a million a year. Do that and make sure you are giving him the resources to keep him happy. For example a private jet for recruiting, nice facilities, fair assistant coaches salary etc. X might need to get creative with incentives and bonuses. I know Memphis was paying into an annuity for Calipari years ago. I trust the people in place at X.

Buzz Williams at $2.8 million? How does Marquette do THAT? Yikes! Ohio State I get, but Marquette?

[JEHARDI]

Ridiculous that a state school with financial issues can pay a basketball coach $2.2mm a year. State and federal funding should be cut a proportionate amount to account for their stupidity. Hard to believe anyone could think paying the munchkin that type of money is a smart move.

[STL_XUfan]

(ie. handing a leprechaun $20 million).

Ok new plan, we will wait until after the next rain shower and then meet up under the nearest rainbow and take all of Mick's gold.

[Masterofreality]

I have no clue what Mack makes. I hope X is compensating him fairly. There are a lot of schools out there that X can't out bid for a coach. Arizona and Ohio State are two of those schools. However, you have to pay a coach like Mack over a million a year.

He's not making a million a year. He's not making $900,000 a year.

That's all I'll say, except that I hope that soon X can pay him and his assistants more.

[xudash]

Ridiculous that a state school with financial issues can pay a basketball coach $2.2mm a year. State and federal funding should be cut a proportionate amount to account for their stupidity. Hard to believe anyone could think paying the munchkin that type of money is a smart move.

I don't know this to be the case, but perhaps UC's booster club helps fund it. I suspect that some of the larger, more successful schools with rabid alumni bases operation that way.

EDIT: I don't regard UC's athletic program to be successful or its fan base to be rabid, but it is sufficiently big to draw dollard into the coffer.

[powerofX]

He's not making a million a year. He's not making $900,000 a year.

That's all I'll say, except that I hope that soon X can pay him and his assistants more.

Honest question...is the administration against the investment in Mack and assistants or do we truly not have enough via donors?

[xsteve1]

Honest question...is the administration against the investment in Mack and assistants or do we truly not have enough via donors?

There were reports X was prepared to give Miller 1.6 when Arizona came calling, unfortunately Arizona was paying over 2 mill.

[xu82]

There were reports X was prepared to give Miller 1.6 when Arizona came calling, unfortunately Arizona was paying over 2 mill.

It may not have been just money.... he may have felt the desert would help that cough. (Lord, now I hope there's not some serious medical issue sending me straight to hell.. I was hoping for a meandering path to the hot spot)

[xudash]

Honest question...is the administration against the investment in Mack and assistants or do we truly not have enough via donors?

I don't have an answer, but I can speculate like anyone else. I seriously doubt this administration has issues with investing in Chris Mack, and I have to believe they like how he runs the program. This administration knows how to recruit and develop talent across the board, for the most part. I believe it is clear to them that Chris is a talent. In fact, I'm comfortable stating here that the administration feels that way.

I think back to what we learned about Chris submitting a comprehensive plan to Mike Bobinski that partially helped him to win the job. He may have approached Mike with his own ideas for a compensation package in that plan. That plan was obviously embraced; he got the job. It's safe to say that he has incentives built into his deal.

So, what has happened over the last two years? We took a temporary detour with the year of the Brawl. We didn't make the NCAA Tournament this past season, after having done so for 7 straight years. I doubt material adjustments in his contract was going to take place in his contract during that timeframe.

I absolutely believe he is Xavier's long-term answer; he's our Mark Few. I would think that his ability to get us to the Tournament this year - our first year in the Big East - will provide for a compensation meeting this spring/summer, especially in light of the recruiting class he just nailed.

Xavier simply should do the right thing, assuming he delivers strong results. We should take care of him, regardless of his level of affinity for the school and regardless of his ties to Cincinnati (i.e. don't assume those to be things that tie him without question to Xavier).

We'll know more about what we can do once Greg Christopher finishes his strategic plan for athletics and once it is determined from that which course, which level of investment the University and its community is prepared to pursue.

[xu82]

I'm not surprised the UC thread turned into an X thread... Think about what a relatively new coach had to deal with in a short period of time: the brawl; Mark Lyons situation/departure; Dez Wells debacle; and who knows what else happened behind the scenes we have no clue about. I suspect the coach and the administration disagreed on some issues. So, we missed a year at The Tournament, but we do have a killer recruiting class coming in. Yes, sometimes I scratch my head on game day, but I also know my head is relatively empty. He has a reason for what he does. JMart is proof of that. Many wondered early why he got so much time (myself included), but he can change the game. I am glad to have Chris Mack running the program and I hope we pay him fairly and we go on to great things.

[xubrew]

Again, absolutely right. We are one good elite eight (or dare I say final four?) away from a serious crisis. Kind of ironic that a great run could be our ruin...

Maybe we'll get lucky and lose in the round of 64.

This is what amateur athletics are all about!!

[sirthought]

According to an article dated 3/23/12 in the Washington Post, Xavier paid head coach Chris Mack about $485,000 last fiscal year. I believe that's his base. There are incentives and other perks that bring the level up quite a bit. An Enquirer piece in 2009 stated it was $450,932. That's a pretty good bump in three years. (Kevin McGuff earned $185,773.)

That same article cites Ohio University was paying John Groce $300,000. Read it here (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/campus-overload/post/sweet-sixteen-coaches-and-march-madness-bonuses/2012/03/21/gIQAOn38VS_blog.html). Part of the author's point was that many schools are paying huge sums to their coaches and getting similar, ultimate results as schools paying much less.

I believe Mack is getting a sum that is more than comfortable. The man and his family could never be for want with that kind of scratch. I'd say he's likely more interested in getting the resources that will prolong his program's success. Getting good assistant coaches, trainers, along with the private planes and contemporary facilities.

If your office and workspace is as nice as anywhere else, and your house is as comfortable as you need, you're not likely to pine for greener pastures. [As an aside, my company did all of the A/V equipment in Mack's offices -- as well as the Cintas sound system -- and he has a nice place to work. I'd love it. We were doing Butch Jones' digs too and they were playing catch up, but really just a bit. UC has top-notch media technology at their disposal.]

What sent Miller and Matta elsewhere had less to do with salary and more to do with those particular programs' history of recruiting top talent consistently. Yes, OSU wasn't such a powerhouse at the time he went there, but it has a pull with certain athletes that Xavier might never have unless they win a championship. Moreso with Arizona hoops.

Other big schools may come calling, but many of them won't have anything better than Xavier does now (other than salary). They likely have more pressure to win. We'll see if the pressure to win in the Big East changes life here.


===================

In June 2013 the Enquirer reported Mick Cronin maintains a $1.25 million base salary with a $100,000 retention bonus in October, with a $50 grand bonus the next 3 years after that. For years he was the worst paid coach in the Big East. But he hadn't proven himself yet and he knew the school didn't have resources to hike his salary more. I seriously doubt he's asked for a raise---EVER. He knows he's making good money doing what he loves. The school and his agent know more money could be offered elsewhere, so that just comes into play. More specifically reported:



Cronin’s base salary is $400,000, up from $300,000 on the previous contract. He gets $350,000 for his radio and television shows (up $50,000 over his previous contract) and $350,000 for public relations duties (also an increase of $50,000). But his $150,000 from UC’s shoe, equipment and apparel contract with Adidas is $200,000 less than what he received in the 2011 contract.

Other benefits include free use of a car, authorization to operate a summer camp, a golf club membership, a $2 million life insurance policy, and a $200,000 university contribution to a supplemental retirement plan, which is new.

He gets $20,000 for making the NCAA tournament, another $20,000 for making it to the third round, $30,000 for a Sweet 16 appearance, $40,000 for the Elite Eight, $60,000 for the Final Four, $100,000 for making it to the national championship game and another $100,000 for winning the national championship. Those figures are unchanged from his previous deal.

Based on academic incentives, Cronin will make $25,000 if his team’s combined grade-point average is 2.75 or above and $40,000 if it’s 3.0 or higher, an increase of $10,000 under his previous contract. If the team’s academic progress rate, as defined by the NCAA, is 950 or higher, he gets an additional $15,000. If it’s 975 or higher, that increases to $35,000, an increase of $15,000 over the previous contract.

Cronin has an attendance incentive that pays him $7,000 if UC averages 7,500 or more fans at its home games, $10,000 if the average is 8,000 or more and $15,000 if it’s 9,000 or more. That’s the same as the 2011 contract.

[bleedXblue]

[QUOTE=sirthought;429756]According to an article dated 3/23/12 in the Washington Post, Xavier paid head coach Chris Mack about $485,000 last fiscal year. I believe that's his base. There are incentives and other perks that bring the level up quite a bit. An Enquirer piece in 2009 stated it was $450,932. That's a pretty good bump in three years. (Kevin McGuff earned $185,773.)

That same article cites Ohio University was paying John Groce $300,000. Read it here (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/campus-overload/post/sweet-sixteen-coaches-and-march-madness-bonuses/2012/03/21/gIQAOn38VS_blog.html). Part of the author's point was that many schools are paying huge sums to their coaches and getting similar, ultimate results as schools paying much less.

I believe Mack is getting a sum that is more than comfortable. The man and his family could never be for want with that kind of scratch. I'd say he's likely more interested in getting the resources that will prolong his program's success. Getting good assistant coaches, trainers, along with the private planes and contemporary facilities.

If your office and workspace is as nice as anywhere else, and your house is as comfortable as you need, you're not likely to pine for greener pastures. [As an aside, my company did all of the A/V equipment in Mack's offices -- as well as the Cintas sound system -- and he has a nice place to work. I'd love it. We were doing Butch Jones' digs too and they were playing catch up, but really just a bit. UC has top-notch media technology at their disposal.]

What sent Miller and Matta elsewhere had less to do with salary and more to do with those particular programs' history of recruiting top talent consistently. Yes, OSU wasn't such a powerhouse at the time he went there, but it has a pull with certain athletes that Xavier might never have unless they win a championship. Moreso with Arizona hoops.

Other big schools may come calling, but many of them won't have anything better than Xavier does now (other than salary). They likely have more pressure to win. We'll see if the pressure to win in the Big East changes life here.


===================

In June 2013 the Enquirer reported Mick Cronin maintains a $1.25 million base salary with a $100,000 retention bonus in October, with a $50 grand bonus the next 3 years after that. For years he was the worst paid coach in the Big East. But he hadn't proven himself yet and he knew the school didn't have resources to hike his salary more. I seriously doubt he's asked for a raise---EVER. He knows he's making good money doing what he loves. The school and his agent know more money could be offered elsewhere, so that just comes into play. More specifically reported:[/
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Don't for a second think money isn't important. You don't think Mack knows what Cronin's making? What other head coaches in the Big East are making? You don't think he wants to be compensated for delivering results similar or even better than the fore mentioned coaches? Come on. I'm not saying he shouldn't be happy with X , coaching his alma mater in his home town.

Also, this is a tough business. You better get what you can when you can. There's no guarantee that Mack's gonna be a head coach ten years from now. He's gotta look out for his family and position himself as best he can.

[chico]

Although this is probably very nice for Cronin, I'm sure the only extension he really wants is to be 5'6".

I don't think we can compare ourselves to UC. UC and X are two totally different schools. I think what Mack is paid now is very good, but could be better. However, he needs to keep getting results on the court. I honestly don't think we're one good run in the tournament from losing him. But I agree with Go - I don't think this program would be hurting for viable candidates to take over should Mack leave.

[xavierj]

Chris mack seems to be doing just fine and money does not appear to bean option based off the house he built with an indoor pool in one of the most expensive neighborhoods in NKY. My opinion is that Chris Makes much more money on other things. Like Nike, camps, etc..than his actual salary from Xavier. I also believe that UC way over pays for Cronin, he will never leave Clifton until his daughter is in college and and they are already cash strapped, not to mention the guy really has never done anything special. They appear to be irresponsible in paying their coaches. Nice to do what you please with tax payer money.

[sweet16]

This....like I've been saying.

Well you were also saying that Mack was making $2million+ a year.

[bleedXblue]

Chris mack seems to be doing just fine and money does not appear to bean option based off the house he built with an indoor pool in one of the most expensive neighborhoods in NKY. My opinion is that Chris Makes much more money on other things. Like Nike, camps, etc..than his actual salary from Xavier. I also believe that UC way over pays for Cronin, he will never leave Clifton until his daughter is in college and and they are already cash strapped, not to mention the guy really has never done anything special. They appear to be irresponsible in paying their coaches. Nice to do what you please with tax payer money.

Come on. As much as I cant stand the guy.........he was left with nothing when he took over UC. He's done a very good job and he will be a hot commodity if he's smart and waits on this extension until AFTER the year is over.

Also, last time I checked UC does charge tuition. I know they get huge funding dollars from the state, but its not like the basketball program isnt earning some nice revenue. We all know that success on the field or on the court can lead to big increases in enrollment.

[vee4xu]

I've been investing in commercial real estate for 25 years. As an investor the idea is to pay market. What someone else would pay for Kenwood Town Center does not make that price market. What makes it market are the results of my own research and due diligence of what others have recently paid for comparable investments. If someone wants to overpay then I say fine and get out of the bidding. I live to play another day and go on to the next deal. If UC wants to pay Cronin $2MM that doesn't automatically mean Coach Mack is worth that. He may be, but you won't know until you research his value to X versus the comps. Overpaying for real estate will impact your return forever. Overpaying for a coach can impact many things as well.

[vee4xu]

Actually market is the price negotiated between a willing buyer and a willing seller. With willing being the operative word.

[xavierj]

Come on. As much as I cant stand the guy.........he was left with nothing when he took over UC. He's done a very good job and he will be a hot commodity if he's smart and waits on this extension until AFTER the year is over.

Also, last time I checked UC does charge tuition. I know they get huge funding dollars from the state, but its not like the basketball program isnt earning some nice revenue. We all know that success on the field or on the court can lead to big increases in enrollment.

Not disputing that I just think they are over paying for him. He will not leave. And lots of guys inherit bad deals but he has been there for what 7 or 8 yesrs now. At some point that goes away. Mick had only 2 Big East Seasons where his record was above .500 in league play. Tom Crean was left with a bigger pile of crap and has done as much if not more. I would guess Indiana is not in a hurry to keep throwing a ton of money at him. UC is now in a lesser league, can't sell out home games and Mick has 1 sweet 16 appearance in his time. And for the record I think all coaches are overpaid.

[LA Muskie]

Actually market is the price negotiated between a willing buyer and a willing seller. With willing being the operative word.

No it's not. Market is what the typical buyer would be willing to pay the typical seller.

[GoMuskies]

No it's not.

Sure it is, and if you try to pull that "market" crap in a negotiation with me, I'll remind you that the relevant market is you and me. Unless, of course, market is in my client's favor. Then it's very, very relevant.

[LA Muskie]

I don't know whether UC is overpaying or not. There's a lot to go into the calculus. I don't like Mick but he's a very good coach and they likely couldn't get better than him -- or at least couldn't get a known commodity (a successful major program coach) better than him for much less. I think the WAR statistic is a good way of looking at it.

[blueblob06]

He is going to buy a jet now?

I thought the same thing. If he's smart, he negotiated that into his new deal. Or did he not and he'll just keep complaining about that?

I wonder how the football program feels about this. $18 Million in one person's salary ties up a big chunk of money!

[Kahns Krazy]

I think they had to do something to indicate some stability. New football coach, new AD, I think this is just a sybolic move to indicate that not everything is getting turned upside down.

I would not take a bet that Cronin will still be there in 2012 if you gave me 10:1 odds.

[casualfan]

I would not take a bet that Cronin will still be there in 2012 if you gave me 10:1 odds.

Well that'd be pretty stupid since you could collect immediately...

[vee4xu]

No it's not. Market is what the typical buyer would be willing to pay the typical seller.
What is a typical buyer? Not sure what world you're investing in, but in my world there are just buyers. The dumb, the smart, the motivated, the re-trader, the reasonable, the desperate, the rational, etc. are all just buyers. The one willing to pay the price to the seller willing to accept that price at arm's length wins the deal. There are no typical buyers, just motivated buyers at varying level of motivation.

[chico]

No it's not. Market is what the typical buyer would be willing to pay the typical seller.

In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is.

[blobfan]

Ridiculous that a state school with financial issues can pay a basketball coach $2.2mm a year. State and federal funding should be cut a proportionate amount to account for their stupidity. Hard to believe anyone could think paying the munchkin that type of money is a smart move.
Given the schools financial straights, I can't see how they justify this!

Actually market is the price negotiated between a willing buyer and a willing seller. With willing being the operative word.


No it's not. Market is what the typical buyer would be willing to pay the typical seller.

According to Hamilton County, neither of the above statements is true when it comes to residential housing. The value is whatever they tell you it is, which seems to be based on an algorithm using the relative political clout of your area and likelihood residences will file appeals. Less clout means higher increases.

[xudash]

What is a typical buyer? Not sure what world you're investing in, but in my world there are just buyers. The dumb, the smart, the motivated, the re-trader, the reasonable, the desperate, the rational, etc. are all just buyers. The one willing to pay the price to the seller willing to accept that price at arm's length wins the deal. There are no typical buyers, just motivated buyers at varying level of motivation.

LA Muskie, I'm sure you're an excellent lawyer, but trust me: the man knows what he is typing about.

[West is Best]

I'm happy to see UC make an investment in its basketball program rather than chase the football pipe dream... but the timing by Mick is great here... Kilpatrick is 24 years old, Rubles: 22, Thomas 20, Jackson: 24, Sanders 21, Guyn 23. He won't have a roster with this much experience for a long time.

I don't think the money is as crazy as the number of years. I would never give a coach a 7 year deal. If he's any good, he'll get a raise after 2 or 3 years anyways. If he sucks, the school is stuck with a larger buyout. A 5 year deal with a roll-over provision makes a lot more sense.

[XU 87]

LA Muskie, I'm sure you're an excellent lawyer, but trust me: the man knows what he is typing about.

I think Vee is using a business definition and LA is using more of a legal definition.

[bleedXblue]

I'm happy to see UC make an investment in its basketball program rather than chase the football pipe dream... but the timing by Mick is great here... Kilpatrick is 24 years old, Rubles: 22, Thomas 20, Jackson: 24, Sanders 21, Guyn 23. He won't have a roster with this much experience for a long time.

I don't think the money is as crazy as the number of years. I would never give a coach a 7 year deal. If he's any good, he'll get a raise after 2 or 3 years anyways. If he sucks, the school is stuck with a larger buyout. A 5 year deal with a roll-over provision makes a lot more sense.

They're spending 80 million on a Nippert upgrade.....with no intention or money left as far as I know to do anything with the 5/3rd arena.

Again, if Mick is smart he holds on and waits to see what the offseason brings. Given that statement, I expect him to sign on long term deal any day now.

[LA Muskie]

I think Vee is using a business definition and LA is using more of a legal definition.

This. In legal parlance, what Vee is describing is an "arm's length transaction." It's what a willing buyer will pay and a willing seller will accept, in the absence of fraud. It's not necessarily "market" at a macro level because it's possible that no other market participants would engage on those same terms. But absent the need to determine whether it was a market appropriate transaction (say, for example, for financing reasons or because one party owes fiduciary duties to others) it doesn't really matter to the transacting parties.

[vee4xu]

I think we can all agree that we'd love Coach Mack to stay at Xavier for many, many successful years. In the end, it is Xavier that brings us back together.

[Nigel Tufnel]

This. In legal parlance, what Vee is describing is an "arm's length transaction." It's what a willing buyer will pay and a willing seller will accept, in the absence of fraud. It's not necessarily "market" at a macro level because it's possible that no other market participants would engage on those same terms. But absent the need to determine whether it was a market appropriate transaction (say, for example, for financing reasons or because one party owes fiduciary duties to others) it doesn't really matter to the transacting parties.

Shudders....:bash: You just gave me a flashback to Contracts class in Toledo, Ohio. I have very few good memories of law school and/or Toledo, Ohio. Yuck.

[Masterofreality]

Well you were also saying that Mack was making $2million+ a year.

When?

[Cheesehead]

I don't know whether UC is overpaying or not. There's a lot to go into the calculus. I don't like Mick but he's a very good coach and they likely couldn't get better than him -- or at least couldn't get a known commodity (a successful major program coach) better than him for much less. I think the WAR statistic is a good way of looking at it.

Mick is an ok coach but not very good. That is crazy talk.

Where did this money come from for the extension for YTG?

[sirthought]

Not disputing that I just think they are over paying for him. He will not leave. And lots of guys inherit bad deals but he has been there for what 7 or 8 yesrs now. At some point that goes away. Mick had only 2 Big East Seasons where his record was above .500 in league play. Tom Crean was left with a bigger pile of crap and has done as much if not more. I would guess Indiana is not in a hurry to keep throwing a ton of money at him. UC is now in a lesser league, can't sell out home games and Mick has 1 sweet 16 appearance in his time. And for the record I think all coaches are overpaid.

I agree that all coaches are overpaid and therefore, they might be over paying him. But I'd challenge this opinion of Cronin not doing much.

Crean had several players available to him when he got there (and all the resources that go with IU hoops program-huge budget, huge state school). Either he or the school decided to promptly burn bridges with many related to the past coaching staff. But it was partially the athletes who chose to not stick around. Indiana just had bad karma to work off, unlike the total lack of recruiting that happened at Cincinnati.

Cronin came to the team with one mediocre, after-thought of a scholarship player...an undersized power forward. And then one terrible scholarship player who Andy Kennedy rescued from the hurricane who would have never stepped foot on campus with Huggins. He had nothing. No incoming kids. No one on the radar.

It took him 5 years to take the program back to the NCAA tournament. That's an understandable amount of time for almost any coach, under any circumstance, unless you've inherited a team loaded with talent. Cronin took two more teams to the tournament while in the Big East. They were fighting their way into being in the upper half of the conference. He's had more than typical ups and downs in trying to get the best players to play for him, but he's gotten good results overall.

While UC the school may struggle with what conference they're in, how attendance is at both football and basketball games, and if they are considered an elite program nationally, the basketball team on the court has been performing better than the majority of teams in Division 1. Each year he's been there they've improved in positive results (record/national rankings). Mick Cronin has been part of a winning situation where ever he's gone as an assistant or head coach. There could have been several other good coaches that might have done as well or better, but I'd say he's been a good investment for them so far. You reward that in some way.

[sweet16]

When?

MM on 3/15/13:

"He's making over $2 million per year all in. Perpetual roll over. "

[chico]

MM on 3/15/13:

"He's making over $2 million per year all in. Perpetual roll over. "

So you came here to tell us about a supposed quote from MOR that he said almost a year ago on another message board.

Seek help, immediately.