View Full Version : 2014 Pacers
waggy
02-04-2014, 09:42 PM
Thought I'd start a thread to keep up with the Pacers the rest of the way. As long as DFW is there they'll be my adopted NBA team. I'm guessing there are at least a few others here.
West's numbers don't appear to have to slid any yet, but his window will probably start closing soon. This a big year for him personally.
The Pacers signed Andrew Bynum a few days ago to back up Hibbert. They got Granger back a few weeks agos. Best record in the east at minimum. Everything is lining up. Point guard is probably their weakest position as far scoring, but they have a lot of weapons for Hill to distribute to. Stephenson has become a big piece of what they are doing. Hopefully he doesn't screw up before they can get their rings.
West had 22 & 10 against the Hawks tonight.
SlimKibbles
02-04-2014, 09:56 PM
I'm going to the game Friday night against the Blazers. Looking forward to it!
waggy
02-04-2014, 10:27 PM
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BfLaz5AIYAEMWtm.jpg:large
Retire33
02-04-2014, 10:47 PM
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BfLaz5AIYAEMWtm.jpg:large
Great Graphic
...Stephenson has become a big piece of what they are doing. Hopefully he doesn't screw up before they can get their rings.
...
Stephenson left the game in the third quarter with a back injury. Hopefully he's OK.
waggy
02-05-2014, 12:05 AM
Stephenson left the game in the third quarter with a back injury. Hopefully he's OK.
I saw that right after posting. Nasty fall.
Porkopolis
02-05-2014, 08:22 AM
I'm a lifelong Cavs fan but since they are doing the usual I'm pulling for the Fighting DFWs from here on out. Nice win again last night.
Muskie
02-05-2014, 08:23 AM
Since Stephenson was left off the all-star squad, he'll get some downtime to rest his back at the break.
Milhouse
02-05-2014, 08:37 AM
This will very likely be Stephenson's last year with the club...since George, Hibbert, and Dwest all have big contracts and Larry Bird has repeatedly said that they will not go into the luxury tax. Could be the year for the Pacers to get a ring...especially with an ailing DWade on the Heat.
I'll be attending at least 1 or 2 playoff games. Cannot wait.
Muskie
02-05-2014, 08:39 AM
I think you may seem them try to get Granger off the books. People around here love him, but he's always hurt.
ballyhoohoo
02-05-2014, 08:47 AM
I took my 15 year old nephew to his first NBA game this past weekend, he had never been to an NBA or College game. Thought this year for Christmas i would give his a memory instead of a crappy gift. Needless to say he was in sensory over load. I couldnt tell if he liked the Pacers or the Pacemates better.
The Pacers put on a great game day atmosphere and reccomend it to anyone. Our tickets had a players picture on each, one had Stephenson and one had grainger, needless to say I used the Grainger one to get in the door.
Now if Muskie would only take me next time he gets the fat cat seats.
Lamont Sanford
02-05-2014, 10:29 AM
I am rooting for anyone to beat the Heat. I think the Pacers have the best chance to beat LBJ and crew. I like the Pacers due primarily to DFW, but I simply cannot root for Stephenson.
Milhouse
02-05-2014, 01:05 PM
I think you may seem them try to get Granger off the books. People around here love him, but he's always hurt.
That would be a wise move as they've proven they can win without him...still not convinced they sign lance to a 5 year deal though...gotta imagine he's looking for a lot of $$ this year too.
XUFan09
02-05-2014, 01:50 PM
Since Stephenson was left off the all-star squad, he'll get some downtime to rest his back at the break.
This article (http://www.theindychannel.com/sports/pacers/roy-hibbert-makes-nba-all-star-team) includes West's video response to Stephenson's exclusion. David Friggin' West, telling it like it is.
XUFan09
02-05-2014, 02:07 PM
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BfLaz5AIYAEMWtm.jpg:large
Which is good, because in terms of offensive efficiency they are pretty average (102.3, good for 19th). Their efficiency differential, though, is #1 in the NBA at 8.4 per 100 possessions. Oklahoma City is right behind them at 8.3 and San Antonio is close at 7.8. Then it starts falling off: Miami is at 6.6, LAC is at 6.2, and Houston is at 5.2.
Muskie
02-05-2014, 02:25 PM
That would be a wise move as they've proven they can win without him...still not convinced they sign lance to a 5 year deal though...gotta imagine he's looking for a lot of $$ this year too.
The fans around Indy (my perspective at least) overvalue Granger because he was the first player that stuck with them as they try to come back to early 2000 success. He also was a steal at his draft position relatively speaking (and Stephenson was a huge steal).
ballyhoohoo
02-05-2014, 03:17 PM
The fans around Indy (my perspective at least) overvalue Granger because he was the first player that stuck with them as they try to come back to early 2000 success. He also was a steal at his draft position relatively speaking (and Stephenson was a huge steal).
Cut him and sign Damon Bailey.
Pacers fans also were pissed they took Reggie.
ammtd34
02-05-2014, 03:26 PM
Cut him and sign Damon Bailey.
Pacers fans also were pissed they took Reggie.
Bailey is a high school girls coach in Indiana. They played (and beat) Kettering Fairmont this year, so they're apparently pretty good.
I am rooting for anyone to beat the Heat. I think the Pacers have the best chance to beat LBJ and crew. I like the Pacers due primarily to DFW, but I simply cannot root for Stephenson.
Surprisingly Lance has kind of become a model citizen and teamate under the watchful eye of DFW. Nobody on that team act
s like a screw-up, with DFW in charge. West squeezed the UC out of Stephenson.
THRILLHOUSE
02-07-2014, 09:21 PM
I'm going to the game Friday night against the Blazers. Looking forward to it!
looks like you picked a good game to go to! West and Hill carried Indy to that win. I haven't gotten a chance to watch Lillard a lot, but man he's a heck of a player.
THRILLHOUSE
02-07-2014, 09:23 PM
Surprisingly Lance has kind of become a model citizen and teamate under the watchful eye of DFW. Nobody on that team act
s like a screw-up, with DFW in charge. West squeezed the UC out of Stephenson.
Yeah you can tell that David is the leader of that team just by watching post game interviews. George Hill had the best game of his career, in the post game interview the first thing he mentions is West challenging him before the game.
That was an awesome game. Paul George struggled, so it was great that West and Hill had a great game. Did anyone hear for how long Lance will be out?
xubball1993
02-08-2014, 06:52 AM
Why oh why did Larry sign that tool Bynum? I hope he doesn't mess up this team's chemistry. I'm looking forward to seeing the Pacers dethrone James et al. Love seeing DWest flex the X tattoo on ESPN.
XUFan09
02-08-2014, 08:58 AM
Why oh why did Larry sign that tool Bynum? I hope he doesn't mess up this team's chemistry. I'm looking forward to seeing the Pacers dethrone James et al. Love seeing DWest flex the X tattoo on ESPN.
They are in the position where they can just dump him if he becomes a problem, because they already have a backup center in Ian Mahinmi. And, if he ends up playing well, they've upgraded their bench. It's a low-risk-high-reward situation.
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SlimKibbles
02-08-2014, 11:32 PM
looks like you picked a good game to go to! West and Hill carried Indy to that win. I haven't gotten a chance to watch Lillard a lot, but man he's a heck of a player.
Yeah it was awesome. Big crowd at the game too. DFW must have drained about 10 shots from just beyond the FT line. They kept leaving him open. He played great. Some guys sitting behind us made a comment early in the game when George Hill was hitting some shots that if he was going to be their leading scorer tonight, the Pacers were in trouble. I had to agree with them at the time but then he went on and had the best game of his career. Lillard is an absolute stud. He gets rid of the ball so quick and swishes about everything he throws up. Aldridge is really, really good too. Robin Lopez channeled his brother Brook with the points he put up. Both teams are really good. Pacers games are a great event. There is always stuff going on during breaks.
I hadn't been to a Pacers game in maybe 10 years when I went up to see DFW when he was with the Hornets but his wife had to go and have a baby the day before and he missed the game. LOL Really glad I was able to go to that game Friday night though. Will have to try and go more often in the future.
waggy
02-20-2014, 01:57 AM
Haven't been playing close attention but I think they're just 4-3 since I started this thread. Scored only 73 at home against Dallas a week ago, and lost at Minnesota tonight.
outsideobserver11
02-20-2014, 05:47 PM
I think you may seem them try to get Granger off the books. People around here love him, but he's always hurt.
And right on cue Granger was traded. Please teach me your ways Muskie!
waggy
04-12-2014, 09:59 PM
Miami lost to Atlanta today, so they have an identical record to the Pacers, each with 2 to play. I don't know what the tie-breaker is if they finish with identical records.
Huge game against the Thunder tomorrow in Indy. Anyone going?
GoMuskies
04-12-2014, 10:13 PM
Miami lost to Atlanta today, so they have an identical record to the Pacers, each with 2 to play. I don't know what the tie-breaker is if they finish with identical records.
Huge game against the Thunder tomorrow in Indy. Anyone going?
The Pacers and Heat have both been awful of late.
D-West & PO-Z
04-12-2014, 10:32 PM
I think the Pacers have the tie breaker but not positive. Some cheap tix on stubhub for the game tomorrow.
XU-PA
04-13-2014, 06:52 AM
I think the Pacers have the tie breaker but not positive. Some cheap tix on stubhub for the game tomorrow.
You are correct, Pacers are the 1 right now with the tie in regular season record. The Pacers have also played the worst basketball over the past 2 weeks of any of the playoff bound teams.
X-band '01
04-13-2014, 10:02 AM
Is it injuries or just sheer boredom counting down the days to the playoffs? As bad as they're playing, I just can't see how you can make an argument for any other team making it to the Eastern Conference finals outside of Indy and Miami.
paulxu
04-13-2014, 02:45 PM
DFW helps Pacers close out Thunder.
Nice shot of some young Xavier fan in the stands; X sword hat and a sign thanking West, noting his X connection.
(last minute of every close NBA game takes 15 minutes of real time)
XUFan09
04-13-2014, 02:48 PM
Is it injuries or just sheer boredom counting down the days to the playoffs? As bad as they're playing, I just can't see how you can make an argument for any other team making it to the Eastern Conference finals outside of Indy and Miami.
I'm a Pacers fan, and I don't have that confidence. Both teams seem prone to a conference semifinals upset.
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xubball1993
04-13-2014, 04:05 PM
DFW helps Pacers close out Thunder.
Nice shot of some young Xavier fan in the stands; X sword hat and a sign thanking West, noting his X connection.
(last minute of every close NBA game takes 15 minutes of real time)
Nice line for West: 21 points (9 for 11; 3 for 4 at stripe) 6 boards and a key block late.
How ridiculous was the last two minutes: show one play, cut to commercial, repeat.
Milhouse
04-23-2014, 10:32 AM
Not the start to the playoffs i was hoping for....
mistabeecee41
04-24-2014, 08:35 PM
Not the start to the playoffs i was hoping for....
these guys are dunzo. Hibbert is overrated. Paul George isn't playing like the supposed 3rd best player in the NBA.
XUFan09
04-24-2014, 09:29 PM
these guys are dunzo. Hibbert is overrated. Paul George isn't playing like the supposed 3rd best player in the NBA.
How is Hibbert overrated? He was voted an All-Star based on his play up until the All-Star game, which was worthy of a selection. And he's been bad since then, but no one has been saying otherwise.
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Milhouse
04-25-2014, 07:17 AM
I'm not 100% convinced he was worth that 50 million dollar check they cashed.
They wont make that mistake with Lance I'm sure of it.
Xville
04-25-2014, 07:39 AM
Pacers are in serious trouble, and one of the main reasons is that they messed with the team's chemistry halfway thru the season and they have not been in the same since then. I don't have the motivation to look it up but I would bet that since Granger was traded, the Pacers are at or barely over 500.
The Pacers were rolling and had everything they needed to compete for a Championship, and then they decided to trade way a team leader in Granger and get a complete waste of space Bynum and Turner. One of the biggest things in professional sports to winning is team chemistry, and the Pacers front office destroyed it halfway thru the season.
mistabeecee41
04-25-2014, 10:27 AM
How is Hibbert overrated? He was voted an All-Star based on his play up until the All-Star game, which was worthy of a selection. And he's been bad since then, but no one has been saying otherwise.
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He's shooting a career low 44% from the field. He averages 6.6 rebounds per game. He's 7'2. Every Hawks big is an undersized perimeter oriented guy, yet he can't score over them on offense and he can't guard them on defense.
Muskie
04-25-2014, 10:33 AM
Pacers are in serious trouble, and one of the main reasons is that they messed with the team's chemistry halfway thru the season and they have not been in the same since then. I don't have the motivation to look it up but I would bet that since Granger was traded, the Pacers are at or barely over 500.
The Pacers were rolling and had everything they needed to compete for a Championship, and then they decided to trade way a team leader in Granger and get a complete waste of space Bynum and Turner. One of the biggest things in professional sports to winning is team chemistry, and the Pacers front office destroyed it halfway thru the season.
I think Turner was brought in as insurance in case/when Stephenson thinks he is worth an 8 figure per year deal at the end of the summer. Stephenson (in my view) has been trying to be the hero, and prove the Pacers wrong. It's killing the chemistry. (And oh yea...fight).
Xville
04-25-2014, 12:31 PM
I think Turner was brought in as insurance in case/when Stephenson thinks he is worth an 8 figure per year deal at the end of the summer. Stephenson (in my view) has been trying to be the hero, and prove the Pacers wrong. It's killing the chemistry. (And oh yea...fight).
I hear what you are saying but who cares about next year? You trade a leader in Granger who helps team chemistry because you are worried about what may or may not happen next year? If the Pacers had stayed the course and left the team alone, the slide they took after the all-star break probably doesn't happen, and they are the championship favorites. Now, they are going to be lucky to get out of the first round. If Vogel takes the fall for such a stupid GM move, it would be horrendous. You do not get rid of a team leader who has been there for so long, and is a fan favorite when the team is rocking and rolling. Bird and Pritchard should fire themselves
Milhouse
04-25-2014, 12:39 PM
I hear what you are saying but who cares about next year? You trade a leader in Granger who helps team chemistry because you are worried about what may or may not happen next year? If the Pacers had stayed the course and left the team alone, the slide they took after the all-star break probably doesn't happen, and they are the championship favorites. Now, they are going to be lucky to get out of the first round. If Vogel takes the fall for such a stupid GM move, it would be horrendous. You do not get rid of a team leader who has been there for so long, and is a fan favorite when the team is rocking and rolling. Bird and Pritchard should fire themselves
OKC made this mistake last year when they traded Harden.
Worry about next year NEXT YEAR.
D-West & PO-Z
04-25-2014, 01:30 PM
OKC made this mistake last year when they traded Harden.
Worry about next year NEXT YEAR.
OKC did not trade Harden. He left via free agency.
Xville
04-25-2014, 01:47 PM
OKC did not trade Harden. He left via free agency.
no he didn't...they traded him when they couldn't work out an extension during the last year of his contract. They freaked out instead of just playing things out like the Pacers did.
D-West & PO-Z
04-25-2014, 01:49 PM
no he didn't...they traded him when they couldn't work out an extension during the last year of his contract. They freaked out instead of just playing things out like the Pacers did.
Oh crap you guys are right, my bad. I'm an idiot.
Xville
04-25-2014, 02:08 PM
Oh crap you guys are right, my bad. I'm an idiot.
i'd like to say i have never been wrong, but that just wouldn't be right. I feel your pain. Regardless, I hope for West's sake that the Pacers can come thru this. There is nothing I would rather see than the Heat lose, and as bad as the Pacers have been for the last few months, they are still the Heat's only competition in the East. It says something about the East when the Wizards are probably the third best team in the conference. How the heck is the East this bad?
XUFan09
04-25-2014, 03:46 PM
He's shooting a career low 44% from the field. He averages 6.6 rebounds per game. He's 7'2. Every Hawks big is an undersized perimeter oriented guy, yet he can't score over them on offense and he can't guard them on defense.
You're just making arguments for why he's bad right now, which no one will disagree with, particularly Pacers fans. You're not really making any arguments for why he's overrated, because the All-Star vote wasn't yesterday but rather back when he was playing well.
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xubball1993
04-26-2014, 11:39 AM
I still blame Bird for bringing in that tool Bynum. I don't care that he hasn't played. He's a cancer.
waggy
04-26-2014, 12:12 PM
Stephenson was playing with an edge and gave them offensive juice at the end of last season. Was he the starting 2 or was he playing more of a 6th man role? That seems to be the biggest difference. That and Hibbert isn't playing as well either. I think blaming the Granger and Bynum deals is looking for reasons outside of execution on the court. I know the couple of box scores I looked at showed that when they shoot well they win. When they don't, they don't.
THRILLHOUSE
04-26-2014, 12:29 PM
Stephenson was playing with an edge and gave them offensive juice at the end of last season. Was he the starting 2 or was he playing more of a 6th man role? That seems to be the biggest difference. That and Hibbert isn't playing as well either. I think blaming the Granger and Bynum deals is looking for reasons outside of execution on the court. I know the couple of box scores I looked at showed that when they shoot well they win. When they don't, they don't.
Stephenson started 72 games last year.
Their offense has struggled and with the exception of the 3rd quarter of Game 2, their defense has been bad too. Just leaving Teague and Milsap wide open.
mistabeecee41
04-28-2014, 08:41 PM
Frank Vogel has completely lost this team. No way he is back next year.
i'd like to say i have never been wrong, but that just wouldn't be right. I feel your pain. Regardless, I hope for West's sake that the Pacers can come thru this. There is nothing I would rather see than the Heat lose, and as bad as the Pacers have been for the last few months, they are still the Heat's only competition in the East. It says something about the East when the Wizards are probably the third best team in the conference. How the heck is the East this bad?
You are crazy if you think the Pacers are more of a competition against the Heat than the Wizards, Raptors or Nets at this point in time. There's probably nobody who will beat the Heat in the East but the Pacers are not a top 4 team in the conference right now, and they haven't been for weeks. It is extremely wishful thinking to believe they're capable of just flicking the switch, and even if they could, the way a few of the other teams are playing, they will still have some match up issues. I think the winner of the Raptors/Nets series (which I think will be Brooklyn but I also think will be the best first round series in the conference) could give the Heat some trouble. The Nets have some experienced players with title pedigrees and the Raptors, while probably more of an underdog, I think could keep Miami honest. I really, really believe my Wizards could give the Heat everything they could handle from an East team but I just don't see them being quite there yet in terms of pulling it off. Match up wise, they probably match up with either Indiana or Miami better than the other teams in the East the way they're playing right now. An outstanding and big true point who has unmatched quickness, three to four deadly outside shooters with size and a very tough front court that is playing some great defense. They don't really have any glaring weaknesses right now, but they also don't have Lebron and I doubt they'll get the edge in officiating. If you could say they have a "weakness" it's that they don't have a three who is going to be able to break down a defense by himself an create his own shot, but Ariza does what he does about as well as anyone right now, in knocking down shots and playing great, quick defense. The Bulls have had no ability to play at the pace they want and have resorted to trying to ugly up a game against a team they're totally overmatched against. If we can stay hot, you never know how far they could go. At least I hope. Still worried about closing it out tonight and if they don't, I've been through this too many times with my teams not to be very nervous. But if we draw Miami in the finals, we are playing with house money. And not that I'm rooting for it, but Wade has a pretty high chance of getting hurt by then. This NBA playoffs just has the feel of one of the more wide open ones in awhile. I think the Heat will be playing in the Finals, but it might not be as easy as people might assume by just looking at regular season records.
Xville
04-29-2014, 07:53 PM
You are crazy if you think the Pacers are more of a competition against the Heat than the Wizards, Raptors or Nets at this point in time. There's probably nobody who will beat the Heat in the East but the Pacers are not a top 4 team in the conference right now, and they haven't been for weeks. It is extremely wishful thinking to believe they're capable of just flicking the switch, and even if they could, the way a few of the other teams are playing, they will still have some match up issues. I think the winner of the Raptors/Nets series (which I think will be Brooklyn but I also think will be the best first round series in the conference) could give the Heat some trouble. The Nets have some experienced players with title pedigrees and the Raptors, while probably more of an underdog, I think could keep Miami honest. I really, really believe my Wizards could give the Heat everything they could handle from an East team but I just don't see them being quite there yet in terms of pulling it off. Match up wise, they probably match up with either Indiana or Miami better than the other teams in the East the way they're playing right now. An outstanding and big true point who has unmatched quickness, three to four deadly outside shooters with size and a very tough front court that is playing some great defense. They don't really have any glaring weaknesses right now, but they also don't have Lebron and I doubt they'll get the edge in officiating. If you could say they have a "weakness" it's that they don't have a three who is going to be able to break down a defense by himself an create his own shot, but Ariza does what he does about as well as anyone right now, in knocking down shots and playing great, quick defense. The Bulls have had no ability to play at the pace they want and have resorted to trying to ugly up a game against a team they're totally overmatched against. If we can stay hot, you never know how far they could go. At least I hope. Still worried about closing it out tonight and if they don't, I've been through this too many times with my teams not to be very nervous. But if we draw Miami in the finals, we are playing with house money. And not that I'm rooting for it, but Wade has a pretty high chance of getting hurt by then. This NBA playoffs just has the feel of one of the more wide open ones in awhile. I think the Heat will be playing in the Finals, but it might not be as easy as people might assume by just looking at regular season records.
There is no one in the east that could beat the heat besides the pacers, and with the pacers playing this bad, the heat probably have a cakewalk unless the pacers suddenly pull their heads out of their collective assholes. The wizards are a fine team, but as I said it says a lot about the east that they are the third best team. Not that the wizards could not be a great team in a few years, they have some pieces, but they are still a few pieces away from being able to keep up with the heat or about 5-6 teams in the west.
waggy
04-29-2014, 08:13 PM
When I started this thread it was assumed the Pacers were going to win the title. I'm not going down without taking someone with me. If the Pacers don't come back and at least make the Eastern finals, Born Rectum is my scapegoat.
Where's MOR been anyway?
There is no one in the east that could beat the heat besides the pacers, and with the pacers playing this bad, the heat probably have a cakewalk unless the pacers suddenly pull their heads out of their collective assholes. The wizards are a fine team, but as I said it says a lot about the east that they are the third best team. Not that the wizards could not be a great team in a few years, they have some pieces, but they are still a few pieces away from being able to keep up with the heat or about 5-6 teams in the west.
I think you must view the NBA way too simplistically if you think any of that is correct. You seem to be going off just records rather than how teams are playing right now, how they are built, and how they match up, which is all the postseason is about. The Pacers are not the team they were last year, who people wishfully felt matched up well with the Heat. Roy Hibbert was good last year and is literally unplayable this year, and that didn't just start during their slump. That was one of the huge match up issues from last year, because Indiana could challenge Miami down low. Indiana does not have a point guard worth a shit and relies on wing scoring just like the Heat, but with players who aren't as good. Paul George was an MVP caliber player last year, and is not anywhere near that right now. This Pacers team simply does not present a threatening match up against Miami, even if they do start playing well again. And I get that they were supposed to have been built to match up with them, but things change very quickly in this league, and with Indiana, they certainly have.
The Wizards on the other hand do present a uniquely different match up against Miami, and Miami has struggled more with them the last couple years than they have with most teams (even when Washington wasn't at its best like it is now) for good reason. The Wizards are as dangerous and deep a three point shooting team as there is in the East, and there have the best point guard in the conference in terms of being able to penetrate and kick out, draw in a defense and find easy shots, and have the length to defend their guards. Plus, the Wizards have an even tougher and better front court than the Pacers if the strategy is to try and out-bang the Heat in the post, which is what Indiana had some success doing against them in the playoffs last year. David West is good, but he along with either of their centers really isn't comparable to Nene and Gortat. The Wizards took some time to get healthy and have their two stud young guards develop, but at this point in time, they are not only clearly a more difficult match up for the Heat than Indiana, they are hands down better than Indiana.
Again, I'm not saying the Wizards will beat the Heat. I will be ecstatic if they simply get the chance. But I don't think anyone who knows and follows the NBA would tell you they don't have a better chance than the Pacers to do so in this particular postseason.
XUFan09
04-30-2014, 01:14 PM
I'm a Pacers fan, and I'm with PMI. The Pacers simply aren't that good anymore, and the Wizards are definitely better than them.
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For the record, David West is my favorite basketball player of all time, at any level. If the Wizards weren't alive, I would be 100% behind the Pacers. I am as disappointed as most with the steep downfall that has taken place in Indiana.
Xville
04-30-2014, 01:32 PM
I think you must view the NBA way too simplistically if you think any of that is correct. You seem to be going off just records rather than how teams are playing right now, how they are built, and how they match up, which is all the postseason is about. The Pacers are not the team they were last year, who people wishfully felt matched up well with the Heat. Roy Hibbert was good last year and is literally unplayable this year, and that didn't just start during their slump. That was one of the huge match up issues from last year, because Indiana could challenge Miami down low. Indiana does not have a point guard worth a shit and relies on wing scoring just like the Heat, but with players who aren't as good. Paul George was an MVP caliber player last year, and is not anywhere near that right now. This Pacers team simply does not present a threatening match up against Miami, even if they do start playing well again. And I get that they were supposed to have been built to match up with them, but things change very quickly in this league, and with Indiana, they certainly have.
The Wizards on the other hand do present a uniquely different match up against Miami, and Miami has struggled more with them the last couple years than they have with most teams (even when Washington wasn't at its best like it is now) for good reason. The Wizards are as dangerous and deep a three point shooting team as there is in the East, and there have the best point guard in the conference in terms of being able to penetrate and kick out, draw in a defense and find easy shots, and have the length to defend their guards. Plus, the Wizards have an even tougher and better front court than the Pacers if the strategy is to try and out-bang the Heat in the post, which is what Indiana had some success doing against them in the playoffs last year. David West is good, but he along with either of their centers really isn't comparable to Nene and Gortat. The Wizards took some time to get healthy and have their two stud young guards develop, but at this point in time, they are not only clearly a more difficult match up for the Heat than Indiana, they are hands down better than Indiana.
Again, I'm not saying the Wizards will beat the Heat. I will be ecstatic if they simply get the chance. But I don't think anyone who knows and follows the NBA would tell you they don't have a better chance than the Pacers to do so in this particular postseason.
I believe you have an extremely slanted view of the wizards marred by rose colored glasses but whatever. I am not a fan of any particular NBA team just one who can beat the heat, and you seem to really be pumping up a wizards team who just beat an atrocious bulls team. As I said, the wizards are a fine team and they have some pieces, but they aren't challenging the heat. If you really believe that if the Pacers played to their ability as they were in January that they aren't a better match up to the heat than the wizards you are nuts. With the way the Pacers are playing now of course they don't match up, but if they find what got them to where they were in January then yes they are by far the biggest challenge to the heat in the east and it isn't close.
drudy23
04-30-2014, 01:43 PM
At this point, no one in the East is going to challenge the Heat.
I believe you have an extremely slanted view of the wizards marred by rose colored glasses but whatever. I am not a fan of any particular NBA team just one who can beat the heat, and you seem to really be pumping up a wizards team who just beat an atrocious bulls team. As I said, the wizards are a fine team and they have some pieces, but they aren't challenging the heat. If you really believe that if the Pacers played to their ability as they were in January that they aren't a better match up to the heat than the wizards you are nuts. With the way the Pacers are playing now of course they don't match up, but if they find what got them to where they were in January then yes they are by far the biggest challenge to the heat in the east and it isn't close.
If anything, my friend, I have been WAY too hard on the Wizards all year and have been proven wrong by how good they were able to become when they came together. And for the record, I think the Nets and Raptors are better than the Pacers too, and I'm very nervous about the Wizards playing the Hawks, which I think they will. Your point about how the Pacers played in January makes no sense. If the Wizards played the way the played against the Heat in their four match ups all year, they will probably go to seven games with them. But that has no bearing on what happens past April. The way the Wizards are playing now is as good as the way the Pacers were playing in January. You don't have to believe that, and you don't seem to be terribly interested in in looking at anything more than your opinion, but my opinion is not just based on my being a fan. It's shared by virtually every analyst of the NBA as well as the match up results. The Bulls are definitely a bad offensive team, but the Wizards are also a good team right now. Are the Hawks a great team? Because they might end it tonight. The Pacers could start playing great right now, but based on their roster, coaching and how they MATCH UP with Miami, they are not as much a threat as Washington. Honestly, Washington is just a "tough" match up for a team like Miami, or at least as tough a one as one could be in the East. By no means does that mean they're better, because they aren't. Once again, I would not expect the Wizards to beat the Heat, and they could even be totally overmatched given they have the best player. But that isn't the issue, and as it regards to who would be the favorite to keep it a better series between the two teams, you simply aren't correct.
Xville
04-30-2014, 02:13 PM
If anything, my friend, I have been WAY too hard on the Wizards all year and have been proven wrong by how good they were able to become when they came together. And for the record, I think the Nets and Raptors are better than the Pacers too, and I'm very nervous about the Wizards playing the Hawks, which I think they will. Your point about how the Pacers played in January makes no sense. If the Wizards played the way the played against the Heat in their four match ups all year, they will probably go to seven games with them. But that has no bearing on what happens past April. The way the Wizards are playing now is as good as the way the Pacers were playing in January. You don't have to believe that, and you don't seem to be terribly interested in in looking at anything more than your opinion, but my opinion is not just based on my being a fan. It's shared by virtually every analyst of the NBA as well as the match up results. The Bulls are definitely a bad offensive team, but the Wizards are also a good team right now. Are the Hawks a great team? Because they might end it tonight. The Pacers could start playing great right now, but based on their roster, coaching and how they MATCH UP with Miami, they are not as much a threat as Washington. Honestly, Washington is just a "tough" match up for a team like Miami, or at least as tough a one as one could be in the East. By no means does that mean they're better, because they aren't. Once again, I would not expect the Wizards to beat the Heat, and they could even be totally overmatched given they have the best player. But that isn't the issue, and as it regards to who would be the favorite to keep it a better series between the two teams, you simply aren't correct.
Love a person who says my opinion is wrong because it's an opinion and then says his opinion is right because well everyone else says it is and because it's your opinion. Hilarious. my point about the Pacers in January is absolutely the point I was making. If the Pacers somehow come back to where they were playing back in January they are the best match up for the Heat it's not close. That's the point. All you are doing is defending your own team, which I get but that doesn't make your opinion anymore right than anyone else's though you think it does.
D-West & PO-Z
04-30-2014, 02:15 PM
I'm convinced whoever comes out of the West will beat the heat. You are a hell of a team if you come out of the side of the bracket. Hopefully the team isn't too beat up. The conferences are a joke and its been that way for quite a while. I'm a Knicks fan and even though it would hurt them, I would probably be for no conferences at this point.
Xville
04-30-2014, 02:25 PM
I'm convinced whoever comes out of the West will beat the heat. You are a hell of a team if you come out of the side of the bracket. Hopefully the team isn't too beat up. The conferences are a joke and its been that way for quite a while. I'm a Knicks fan and even though it would hurt them, I would probably be for no conferences at this point.
I hope that is the case. What I am concerned with is that the team that comes out of the west is going to be so gassed that they won't have anything left for the heat. The west is a gauntlet, the east is a joke.
Love a person who says my opinion is wrong because it's an opinion and then says his opinion is right because well everyone else says it is and because it's your opinion. Hilarious. my point about the Pacers in January is absolutely the point I was making. If the Pacers somehow come back to where they were playing back in January they are the best match up for the Heat it's not close. That's the point. All you are doing is defending your own team, which I get but that doesn't make your opinion anymore right than anyone else's though you think it does.
OK, this has run its course, but let's just get one thing clear. You are making zero sense, and you are backing it up with less than zero substance. At least I provided FACTS to support my opinion. The only thing you've said is that this hypothetical team that the Pacers were for a portion of the season would be the best match up for the Heat, which, in my OPINION is entirely incorrect, but in FACT means less than nothing. If the Wizards played their absolute best and the Pacers played their absolute best, I still think the Wizards are a better MATCH UP for the Heat. I have given you much information on why I think that is, and you don't have to agree with it (even though people who know more about the game than both of us seem to) but you don't present a good argument by using zero substance to make your points. The Pacers at their best still have a sub-par point guard and a sub-par center, THIS season, not last. The Wizards have a more unique team given their backcourt and front court balance. Just because it took them longer to make it gel and thus had a worse record than Indiana does not make it less so. And none of that matters anyway, because many NBA teams, at their best, are good enough to challenge the Heat. Your notion that the only change the Heat have of being challenged is if Indiana magically returns to where it was at one point, rather than a team that's ALREADY playing great and very hot, is a silly one, both in my and most other peoples' opinion. And regardless, the Heat would be the favorites against either. Again, disagree with it all you want, but this never had a chance of being a productive argument because you haven't made an intelligent point yet.
And FWIW, your assertion that my being a Wizards fan is in any way influencing this argument is ridiculous, considering I've been an Indiana fan too since they've had West, and I have admittedly been dead wrong about how good the Wizards could be. I never thought they were capable of being as good as they are at this point.
Xville
04-30-2014, 02:41 PM
OK, this has run its course, but let's just get one thing clear. You are making zero sense, and you are backing it up with less than zero substance. At least I provided FACTS to support my opinion. The only thing you've said is that this hypothetical team that the Pacers were for a portion of the season would be the best match up for the Heat, which, in my OPINION is entirely incorrect, but in FACT means less than nothing. If the Wizards played their absolute best and the Pacers played their absolute best, I still think the Wizards are a better MATCH UP for the Heat. I have given you much information on why I think that is, and you don't have to agree with it (even though people who know more about the game than both of us seem to) but you don't present a good argument by using zero substance to make your points. The Pacers at their best still have a sub-par point guard and a sub-par center, THIS season, not last. The Wizards have a more unique team given their backcourt and front court balance. Just because it took them longer to make it gel and thus had a worse record than Indiana does not make it less so. And none of that matters anyway, because many NBA teams, at their best, are good enough to challenge the Heat. Your notion that the only change the Heat have of being challenged is if Indiana magically returns to where it was at one point, rather than a team that's ALREADY playing great and very hot, is a silly one, both in my and most other peoples' opinion. And regardless, the Heat would be the favorites against either. Again, disagree with it all you want, but this never had a chance of being a productive argument because you haven't made an intelligent point yet.
Let's make one thing clear...am I your son and you are pointing at me with your finger? Haha. You were the one who started this argument bbuddy.i was going to provide you with points as to why the Pacers if the return to from are better than the wizards in relation to the heat. However you have proven that all you are concerned with is trying to press your opinion as fact and if someone disagrees with that opinion, they get their finger waved at them. Your facts are not facts as much as you want them to be. They are your opinion. Just because you think that the wizards have a better match up because they have nene and Gortat doesn't make it so...just because they have wall and Beal doesn't mean they are a better matchup. I'm done with your finger pointing.
I'm not sure if you have reading comprehension problems or what but I made clear points. The Pacers were the best team in the NBA for half of the year, even your beloved nba analysts would say so. if they return back to that form, they are the best match up for the heat. Not sure what is so difficult to understand about that.
Let's make one thing clear...am I your son and you are pointing at me with your finger? Haha. You were the one who started this argument bbuddy.i was going to provide you with points as to why the Pacers if the return to from are better than the wizards in relation to the heat. However you have proven that all you are concerned with is trying to press your opinion as fact and if someone disagrees with that opinion, they get their finger waved at them. Your facts are not facts as much as you want them to be. They are your opinion. Just because you think that the wizards have a better match up because they have nene and Gortat doesn't make it so...just because they have wall and Beal doesn't mean they are a better matchup. I'm done with your finger pointing.
I'm not sure if you have reading comprehension problems or what but I made clear points. The Pacers were the best team in the NBA for half of the year, even your beloved nba analysts would say so. if they return back to that form, they are the best match up for the heat. Not sure what is so difficult to understand about that.
Haha, wow. Based on the way this argument has gone, yes, you are my son, child. You were going to provide me points, but decided not to? I'd be more inclined to believe you were going to bang Kate Upton but you were too tired to that night. Talk about a meltdown.
As I said when this began, the Pacers are the better team based on one thing: their record. That literally has no bearing on the postseason. In fact, the team with the best record is often not the favorite to win the title (please read this as fact, not opinion.) Look, my son, you don't have to participate in intelligent discussions, which require coherent points, but you can't substitute garbage for them in their place either, and then say you didn't feel like using facts. I hope the Pacers do magically turn into the team they were for most of the year the way you think they might be able to. Unfortunately, they still wouldn't be enough to beat the Heat, but I'd love to see it. But if you think there's a better chance of them doing that, and then giving the Heat a great series, than there is of them continuing to struggle and they have for over a month, and an already hot team giving Miami a challenge, then you are worth no more of my time.
Peace out, son. Have your homework and chores done by the time I'm home from work.
Xville
04-30-2014, 03:24 PM
Haha, wow. Based on the way this argument has gone, yes, you are my son, child. You were going to provide me points, but decided not to? I'd be more inclined to believe you were going to bang Kate Upton but you were too tired to that night. Talk about a meltdown.
As I said when this began, the Pacers are the better team based on one thing: their record. That literally has no bearing on the postseason. In fact, the team with the best record is often not the favorite to win the title (please read this as fact, not opinion.) Look, my son, you don't have to participate in intelligent discussions, which require coherent points, but you can't substitute garbage for them in their place either, and then say you didn't feel like using facts. I hope the Pacers do magically turn into the team they were for most of the year the way you think they might be able to. Unfortunately, they still wouldn't be enough to beat the Heat, but I'd love to see it. But if you think there's a better chance of them doing that, and then giving the Heat a great series, than there is of them continuing to struggle and they have for over a month, and an already hot team giving Miami a challenge, then you are worth no more of my time.
Peace out, son. Have your homework and chores done by the time I'm home from work.
I could have an intelligent conversation but it would have to be with someone else since you believe that your opinions are facts. Here's a fact for you...If the Wizards were in the west they wouldn't have even made the playoffs which is back to my original point that the east is garbage. Further you really do have reading comprehension problems. I never said I thought the Pacers could return to form. I said if they did, they are the best competition to the heat...Talk about lack of intelligence.
I could have an intelligent conversation but it would have to be with someone else since you believe that your opinions are facts. Here's a fact for you...If the Wizards were in the west they wouldn't have even made the playoffs which is back to my original point that the east is garbage.
Hell, the Wizards' best regular season record since they won the NBA title in the late 70s wouldn't have made the playoffs in the West this season. I'm well aware of such facts. But they, like your other hypotheticals, are meaningless. "If the Pacers played their best ball like they did in January, they could give the Heat a run for their money." I'll take it a step further, I'll bet the 1998 Bulls could beat this year's Heat team. I really believe that. This game is fun.
Your reading comprehension leaves much to be desired, based on your continued inability to distinguish my opinions from the facts I use to support them. Daddy thinks you better get back to your English homework so we can nip this issue in the bud.
Xville
04-30-2014, 03:40 PM
Hell, the Wizards' best regular season record since they won the NBA title in the late 70s wouldn't have made the playoffs in the West this season. I'm well aware of such facts. But they, like your other hypotheticals, are meaningless. "If the Pacers played their best ball like they did in January, they could give the Heat a run for their money." I'll take it a step further, I'll bet the 1998 Bulls could beat this year's Heat team. I really believe that. This game is fun.
Your reading comprehension leaves much to be desired, based on your continued inability to distinguish my opinions from the facts I use to support them. Daddy thinks you better get back to your English homework so we can nip this issue in the bud.
What facts in your nonsensical argument have you provided? That the wizards are a better matchup than the Pacers Because you say so? Ok buddy
What facts in your nonsensical argument have you provided? That the wizards are a better matchup than the Pacers Because you say so? Ok buddy
Now my argument is nonsensical. This is great entertainment. Yes, the Wizards are a much better matchup because I say so. I'm glad you are starting to understand.
I really hope you aren't getting as worked up as you seem to be considering how many responsibilities you need to take care of if daddy's going to let you stay up late for the Pacers game tonight.
Xville
04-30-2014, 03:50 PM
Now my argument is nonsensical. This is great entertainment. Yes, the Wizards are a much better matchup because I say so. I'm glad you are starting to understand.
I really hope you aren't getting as worked up as you seem to be considering how many responsibilities you need to take care of if daddy's going to let you stay up late for the Pacers game tonight.
As long as you agree that your opinion is your opinion and not facts that is fine by me. I could care less about the Pacers by the way, again I don't have an nba team...All I care about is someone beating the heat...Again reading comprehension proves difficult for you
As long as you agree that your opinion is your opinion and not facts that is fine by me. I could care less about the Pacers by the way, again I don't have an nba team...All I care about is someone beating the heat...Again reading comprehension proves difficult for you
You've got a friend in me as far as wanting to see the Heat lose. As for reading comprehension, let's try this one last time. Opinions are opinions. I think we can all agree on that fact. At least in my opinion we can. Some opinions are based on substance, such as the roster breakdown, analytics regarding matchups, etc., while other opinions are based on... well, whatever it is you've been pulling out. I warmly invite you to disagree with me. The team I am arguing on behalf of just knocked out the team with the NBA's best record since the All Star break 4 game to 1, and looked damn good doing it. The team you're arguing on behalf of has been lost for over a month and is facing elimination on the road against an 8 seed with a losing record tonight. Again, I get that you're bringing up this hypothetical, but one would have to OPINE that the chances Team 2 just turns it on in time to get hot and give Miami a run doesn't seem quite as likely as Team 1 staying hot and giving Miami a run. That is just a little example of substance. It doesn't bite.
Xville
05-01-2014, 08:51 AM
You've got a friend in me as far as wanting to see the Heat lose. As for reading comprehension, let's try this one last time. Opinions are opinions. I think we can all agree on that fact. At least in my opinion we can. Some opinions are based on substance, such as the roster breakdown, analytics regarding matchups, etc., while other opinions are based on... well, whatever it is you've been pulling out. I warmly invite you to disagree with me. The team I am arguing on behalf of just knocked out the team with the NBA's best record since the All Star break 4 game to 1, and looked damn good doing it. The team you're arguing on behalf of has been lost for over a month and is facing elimination on the road against an 8 seed with a losing record tonight. Again, I get that you're bringing up this hypothetical, but one would have to OPINE that the chances Team 2 just turns it on in time to get hot and give Miami a run doesn't seem quite as likely as Team 1 staying hot and giving Miami a run. That is just a little example of substance. It doesn't bite.
The problem is that your facts aren't facts. "the NBA's best record since the all-star break." I mean that's not even true. Are you just trying to throw things out there and hope they stick hoping that no one will catch you so that you sound smart? The Spurs and the Clippers at the very least had better records.
For the last time and I hope it sinks in this time....I was not saying that the current construct of the Pacers are a better matchup than the Wizards. I was saying that if the Pacers came back to form that they were playing with early in the year, they match up better against the heat better than anyone in the east. However, I said that with the way the Pacers are playing with right now, the Heat have a cakewalk in the East. I hope you understand that this time. Why do I think the Wizards don't have a prayer against the Heat? Because they don't have the defense to do so.
Why do I think the Pacers (if they return to form) have a chance against the Heat? Because they have elite defensive ability or at least they have shown that in the past. They match up well with the Heat. Hibbert as bad as he has been in the Hawks series, would be a disruptive force against the Heat, because he can stay in the paint where he is not vulnerable. George is a superstar that can actually defend James as much as he can be defended...the Wizards have no one on their team that can. These points and many others are the reasons that the only way the Heat will face any adversity in the Eastern Conference Playoffs is if the Pacers return to January form...which is incredibly unlikely I agree.
The problem is that your facts aren't facts. "the NBA's best record since the all-star break." I mean that's not even true. Are you just trying to throw things out there and hope they stick hoping that no one will catch you so that you sound smart? The Spurs and the Clippers at the very least had better records.
For the last time and I hope it sinks in this time....I was not saying that the current construct of the Pacers are a better matchup than the Wizards. I was saying that if the Pacers came back to form that they were playing with early in the year, they match up better against the heat better than anyone in the east. However, I said that with the way the Pacers are playing with right now, the Heat have a cakewalk in the East. I hope you understand that this time. Why do I think the Wizards don't have a prayer against the Heat? Because they don't have the defense to do so.
Why do I think the Pacers (if they return to form) have a chance against the Heat? Because they have elite defensive ability or at least they have shown that in the past. They match up well with the Heat. Hibbert as bad as he has been in the Hawks series, would be a disruptive force against the Heat, because he can stay in the paint where he is not vulnerable. George is a superstar that can actually defend James as much as he can be defended...the Wizards have no one on their team that can. These points and many others are the reasons that the only way the Heat will face any adversity in the Eastern Conference Playoffs is if the Pacers return to January form...which is incredibly unlikely I agree.
I'm glad you finally gave some actual reasons why you think you are right, not just because I was waiting for it the whole time, but because you are COMPLETELY incorrect and just further prove my point that you have no idea what you are talking about. The Wizards don't have the defense? How do you think they have been winning? I know they've played Chicago, but the Pacers have played Atlanta, and Washington has had the best defense in the NBA playoffs through round one. Trevor Ariza is one of the best wing defenders in the league! That's what he does. That's why he's a starter in the NBA even though he doesn't create his own shot at a very high level. In fact, if you watched the four Wizards/Heat games this year, which I'm sure you did since you are an NBA guru, you'd know that when Ariza was on Lebron, he guarded him very well. Gortat is one of the better defensive bigs in the league, and our young backcourt is extremely long, athletic and quick on defense. I'm really beginning to think you just don't follow the NBA at all, actually, because you seem to only know the Indiana Pacers, and hold a pretty biased view towards them alone.
As far as the Bulls, perhaps Barkley was wrong last Sunday. But they have had the best record in the East since the All Star break, if not the whole league. Oh well. The point is, Washington beat a significantly better team than Indiana is playing 4 to 1, and Indiana is facing elimination. And yes, I get that this doesn't make a difference to your ridiculously meaningless hypothetical that you continue to attempt to drive home for some reason, but you keep missing the most obvious point, so I'm going to break it down for you in the most elementary way I can.
You say: "...as bad as the Pacers have been for the last few months, they are still the Heat's only competition in the East."
That is the sentence I disagreed with that started this debate, because it is a ridiculous sentence.
It directly states that the Pacers, as bad as they have been, still have a better chance than any other team, even the HOT teams, to beat the Heat. That was, still is, and tomorrow still will be be, wrong. The Pacers, as bad as they've been, do NOT have a better chance of completely turning it around than the teams still alive and well do of continuing to play well, for one. Also, and I think we've beaten this one to death, based on the regular season match ups, team rosters, and playoff experience (no not a typo), yes, I think the Wizards match up better with the Heat if both teams are playing their best. You're entitled to think that the best chance Miami has of going down is the Pacers all of a sudden getting good, but again, most NBA people would strongly disagree with that. Hell, they can't afford a loss in the next two games!
Now to address your points re Pacers. I agree with you on George, for the most part. He was definitely an NBA superstar last year and I think he's taken a bit of a step back but is still a very good player when he's on. And the Pacers are a good defensive team when they're on too. In fact, they were really good at one point. But the chances that Roy Hibbert comes out of his slump are astronomically low. I just spent a bachelor party weekend with a bunch of his high school friends who still keep in touch with him, and Roy is, let's just say, very much checked out of his basketball work ethic since he's gotten his new contract. It obviously shows on the court. I mean, he's been awful this year as an all around player and his coaches hate him. That's a huge part of the Pacers defense, obviously.
I really think you're grossly underestimating the Wizards players and style of play, and I don't blame you for that at all, because I was just as guilty until recently. This is a unique team in the NBA when healthy, which it finally is. I don't say that as a fan. It's true. I think even you would admit that a healthy Nene is an All Star caliber player. Wall and Beal and most clearly playing at All Star levels right now. Ariza could be the MVP of the team on top of it. Gortat is a very solid center on both ends. The bench provides a bit of a scoring punch and some awesome, intense defense. Most regular fans don't know how good a team this is. Two of our starters have played in NBA finals series' and we have one of the most dangerous backcourts who are playing way above their age. This is a really good team right now, playing every single defensive possession like it's their last and running a solid offense with some really talented players. If I'm placing a Vegas bet, I think these guys play in the Eastern Conference Finals. And again, I think they will lose to Miami, but I expect them to open a lot of eyes in doing so.
This argument was fun but it has obviously run its course, and I have no interest in changing your mind. Plus, I'm really busy today. I really hope Indiana wins and flicks the switch on for good starting tonight, because then we will get a chance to see for ourselves. In any case, while the East has sucked horribly for most of the year, I think with what we've got left, it's not nearly as bad as it appears on paper. All that really matters is how teams are playing at this point in time. The Nets/Raptors has been a battle, and I think Brooklyn in particular has the experience, talent and toughness to give Miami a scare. The Heat are better than everyone, but the East at this point in time is not as pathetic as I would've thought a month ago, which is a bit ironic with Indiana being down. I suppose we can both just agree to root against the Heat. Go ahead and fire back, but it's going to be a little while before I can respond.
XU 87
05-01-2014, 08:58 PM
Led by DFW, the Pacers come from behind to get to game 7.
gladdenguy
05-01-2014, 09:13 PM
David West with a huge line.
24 points. 6. Assists. 11 rebounds.
10 4th quarter points and clutch when they trailed by 4 with 3 minutes.
D-West & PO-Z
05-01-2014, 09:28 PM
DFW....such a beast.
drudy23
05-01-2014, 09:38 PM
You say: "...as bad as the Pacers have been for the last few months, they are still the Heat's only competition in the East."
That is the sentence I disagreed with that started this debate, because it is a ridiculous sentence.
.
Pretty sure you're the only person in the world that thinks this. Pacers are only team in the East that can compete over a 7 games series if they play to their capabilities. Not even close.
XUFan09
05-01-2014, 09:48 PM
Pretty sure you're the only person in the world that thinks this. Pacers are only team in the East that can compete over a 7 games series if they play to their capabilities. Not even close.
No, he really isn't, partly because it's a pretty general consensus that the bolded part is improbable. Some of the hot teams staying hot is much more likely, and if they're hot, they stand a chance of beating the Heat.
Pretty sure you're the only person in the world that thinks this. Pacers are only team in the East that can compete over a 7 games series if they play to their capabilities. Not even close.
You clearly don't read or follow NBA analysts, but that's cool. But you also don't seem to comprehend the quote I was responding to. "...as bad as the Pacers have been" is how it starts. And to be clear, the Pacers are playing well enough to compete with the Hawks, not the Heat. There are at least two other teams who are better built to match up with them, not just in my opinion, but in many others' too. You don't have to agree, and I know you aren't one to be persuaded by anyone's argument, however logical it may be, but whatever.
In any case, D West was a beast tonight and saved his team's season, at least for now. The Pacers still are not a great team by any means, but if they escape the Hawks, I could see them loosening up a bit. To me, even at their best in the regular season, they never struck me as a contender or a good match up against Miami. And yes, I know they took them to seven last year but people put WAY too much emphasis on that in judging this year. They don't have a very good point guard or center, and the three other positions are exactly who they're matched up against with the Heat's big three. Just not ideal, even if they made it that far. A team like Brooklyn or Washington at least could be argued to have strengths in certain areas over Miami, even if everyone in the East (and the league) is overmatched by them from an overall standpoint.
But whoever has the fortune of getting the chance at Miami will be fully supported by me all the way.
Xville
05-02-2014, 06:11 AM
You clearly don't read or follow NBA analysts, but that's cool. But you also don't seem to comprehend the quote I was responding to. "...as bad as the Pacers have been" is how it starts. And to be clear, the Pacers are playing well enough to compete with the Hawks, not the Heat. There are at least two other teams who are better built to match up with them, not just in my opinion, but in many others' too. You don't have to agree, and I know you aren't one to be persuaded by anyone's argument, however logical it may be, but whatever.
In any case, D West was a beast tonight and saved his team's season, at least for now. The Pacers still are not a great team by any means, but if they escape the Hawks, I could see them loosening up a bit. To me, even at their best in the regular season, they never struck me as a contender or a good match up against Miami. And yes, I know they took them to seven last year but people put WAY too much emphasis on that in judging this year. They don't have a very good point guard or center, and the three other positions are exactly who they're matched up against with the Heat's big three. Just not ideal, even if they made it that far. A team like Brooklyn or Washington at least could be argued to have strengths in certain areas over Miami, even if everyone in the East (and the league) is overmatched by them from an overall standpoint.
But whoever has the fortune of getting the chance at Miami will be fully supported by me all the way.
You know just because it is your opinion and other people's opinion as you keep on saying, does not make it true. Just because you think the wizards or nets are better built, again does not make it true. Your your precious analysts have an opinion just like everyone else, it doesn't make it true. Analysts are wrong a lot of the time. "Well my opinion is based on well thought out analyzing" doesn't make it true. I really don't care what your opinion is though I completely disagree with it. The problem is that you continue to push your opinions as facts when they aren't and then you attack everyone else's opinion. Just stop it.
drudy23
05-02-2014, 07:17 AM
I have been watching the NBA playoffs for 2 weeks, and I have not heard one analyst say they think any team other than the Pacers can beat the Heat in a 7 game series. That's just moronic. The Wizards are NOWHERE the team the Heat are. It's not even close. The might not even be better than the current Pacers team playing poorly. Just because the Pacers are no longer playing up to their potential doesn't mean the Wizards slide in and take their place.
Your judgment is clouded by your strong desire to watch the Heat lose. While most everyone in the world agrees that they'd love to see the Heat lose, the talent on the floor is what matters...and it's not close.
drudy23
05-02-2014, 07:21 AM
No, he really isn't, partly because it's a pretty general consensus that the bolded part is improbable. Some of the hot teams staying hot is much more likely, and if they're hot, they stand a chance of beating the Heat.
Again, Pacers playing poorly doesn't suddenly equal Wizards or Nets being on par with the Heat...that makes no sense.
Milhouse
05-02-2014, 07:24 AM
D West was incredible last night.
I'll be in Bankers Life Cheap Seat tomorrow. Lets go X.
nuts4xu
05-02-2014, 08:33 AM
Pacer Nation will soon refer to the man as David "Freaking" West.
He has earned it! Big time performance with the season on the line, way to represent DWest!
You know just because it is your opinion and other people's opinion as you keep on saying, does not make it true. Just because you think the wizards or nets are better built, again does not make it true. Your your precious analysts have an opinion just like everyone else, it doesn't make it true. Analysts are wrong a lot of the time. "Well my opinion is based on well thought out analyzing" doesn't make it true. I really don't care what your opinion is though I completely disagree with it. The problem is that you continue to push your opinions as facts when they aren't and then you attack everyone else's opinion. Just stop it.
And you continue this tired act of explaining what everyone already knows. Of course it's my opinion! How many times do we need to go over this? We will find out if it's true soon enough I guess. If I'm right, I'm right. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. Is that that difficult for your brain to comprehend? We can have a debate over opinions here. It's what the place is for. If you just want to read something that reinforces what you already believe, go to a Pacers forum. Regardless of my opinion, you simply cannot argue that I'm the only one with said opinion, as drudy did. Do you really not see the difference?
As for drudy, he talks out of his ass. I have no desire to get into it with him because he doesn't ever care to read what I've written, and instead completely puts words in my mouth. Yea, bro, I really think the Wizards are better than the Heat. We will probably win the next five titles.
Again, Pacers playing poorly doesn't suddenly equal Wizards or Nets being on par with the Heat...that makes no sense.
The sad thing is, I really believe that you think anyone has argued that.
ArizonaXUGrad
05-02-2014, 11:19 AM
Fact is the NBA is a star driven league. The teams with stars that are playing well. That means George/Hibbert/West need to play well. When those three played well they beat the Heat and to a lesser extent Stephensen. What is up with Hibbert? Guy turned into a foul machine.
drudy23
05-02-2014, 11:25 AM
The sad thing is, I really believe that you think anyone has argued that.
I've read about a half a page of this entire thread...none of it convinced me of what is obvious. When you can't convince someone of obvious, you throw in the towel, let them feel like they've won, while everyone else is laughing at you while you think you're the smartest person in the room...you're that guy right now, and can't even begin to fathom that it's true.
drudy23
05-02-2014, 11:28 AM
Regardless of my opinion, you simply cannot argue that I'm the only one with said opinion, as drudy did. Do you really not see the difference?
.
Let me re-phrase...anyone in the world with an educated opinion doesn't think what you do.
I've read about a half a page of this entire thread...none of it convinced me of what is obvious. When you can't convince someone of obvious, you throw in the towel, let them feel like they've won, while everyone else is laughing at you while you think you're the smartest person in the room...you're that guy right now, and can't even begin to fathom that it's true.
This actually made me laugh out loud. You didn't read what was written, and then you responded to something you thought someone argued, but didn't at all. You, sir, have pulled a classic drudy. Please, tell me what else I'm thinking today.
Honestly, there is nothing quite like the guy who forms his opinion on a post he didn't read. I think it's a product of the times, personally, but I'll let you decide that for me.
drudy23
05-02-2014, 12:27 PM
I didn't form my opinion on a post I didn't read...it was based on common sense. Next thing we'll read is 25 paragraphs of John Wall being able to "contain" LeBron...I mean, they're "hot" right? Shit, might as well run for President while you're HOT!!!!!
drudy23
05-02-2014, 12:40 PM
1) "It directly states that the Pacers, as bad as they have been, still have a better chance than any other team, even the HOT teams, to beat the Heat" - in the whole NBA -no; in the East, without a doubt. I would stil opine (I stole your word there), that the vast majority of people who are in the NBA, watch the NBA, or follow the NBA would would agree that the Pacers, EVEN WITH THEIR second half meltdown, have the best chance of beating the Heat. THAT'S NOT BECAUSE THEY THINK THE PACERS ARE THAT GREAT - IT'S BECAUSE THEY KNOW THE REST OF EAST IS THAT TERRIBLE!!!!!
2) "That was, still is, and tomorrow still will be be, wrong" - Impossible to prove "was" and "is" in this circumstance, and the only chance to prove "tomorrow" is if the Heat do not make the Finals - good luck with that
3) "The Pacers, as bad as they've been, do NOT have a better chance of completely turning it around than the teams still alive and well do of continuing to play well, for one" - again, impossible to prove.
paulxu
05-02-2014, 01:08 PM
This thread is very confusing.
I didn't form my opinion on a post I didn't read...it was based on common sense. Next thing we'll read is 25 paragraphs of John Wall being able to "contain" LeBron...I mean, they're "hot" right? Shit, might as well run for President while you're HOT!!!!!
1) "It directly states that the Pacers, as bad as they have been, still have a better chance than any other team, even the HOT teams, to beat the Heat" - in the whole NBA -no; in the East, without a doubt. I would stil opine (I stole your word there), that the vast majority of people who are in the NBA, watch the NBA, or follow the NBA would would agree that the Pacers, EVEN WITH THEIR second half meltdown, have the best chance of beating the Heat. THAT'S NOT BECAUSE THEY THINK THE PACERS ARE THAT GREAT - IT'S BECAUSE THEY KNOW THE REST OF EAST IS THAT TERRIBLE!!!!!
2) "That was, still is, and tomorrow still will be be, wrong" - Impossible to prove "was" and "is" in this circumstance, and the only chance to prove "tomorrow" is if the Heat do not make the Finals - good luck with that
3) "The Pacers, as bad as they've been, do NOT have a better chance of completely turning it around than the teams still alive and well do of continuing to play well, for one" - again, impossible to prove.
Oh, but you did form your opinion on something you didn't read. You assumed I was arguing something that I in no way was, or ever would. You took my comment about the Wizards being good right now to mean the Wizards are as good as the Heat, because you just bullshit without actually reading, like most lazy, ignorant people do.
"Again, Pacers playing poorly doesn't suddenly equal Wizards or Nets being on par with the Heat...that makes no sense." -drudy23
You're right, that does make no sense. Not once was that ridiculous, senseless notion ever said, suggested, or implied anywhere on this thread or any other I've read here, by anyone.
The Pacers, as bad as they're playing right now, are roughly on par with the Atlanta Hawks. We will see if they're good enough right now to beat the Hawks at home and move on. That is not my opinion, but rather the fact as proven by the results, and it cannot be argued. So as bad as they're playing right now, to argue that they are better than a team that beat the Bulls 4 games to 1, is a completely baseless opinion, which seems to ignore what's actually happening, rather than what you, in your infinite wisdom, thinks should happen. So good luck with that.
And what is your point re what is "proven?" How many times do we have to establish the difference between opinions of what will happen, and facts of what have happened? Look, it is my opinion that the hot Wizards team are better than the struggling Pacers team right now. Sure, it's based on a hell of a lot more substance and common sense than anything else I've seen from you and XVille, but I acknowledge it's still just my opinion. Does the Wizards being better than the Pacers right now mean they're better than the Heat? Not by my math, but feel free to skip over all this and think that's what I mean. It's what you do best.
Again, we are just talking about opinions here, but there are a lot of people who are picking the Wizards to go to the conference finals right now. You don't have to like it or agree with it, but it's not based on complete bullshit either. I doubt you've watched a Wizards game, and I have to assume based on some of your arguments your acumen for the game is shaky at best even if you have, but they are pretty good right now. Sure, things can change. Wall and Beal might start showing their youthful inexperience against a different defensive look. God forbid injuries could happen. But I can't accept an argument that they aren't, at this point in time, a good basketball team. That is what we would call a wrong opinion. The Pacers, on the other hand, still are playing like an average team. I have a tough time seeing that change over night, but they have some talent so you never know. Anyone who thinks Roy Hibbert is a good basketball player right now is insane. Paul George has struggled for awhile now, it's become a pattern. I love David West more than any player, but when he's the best player on your team, you are not much of a contender in the playoffs.
BTW, Vegas odds have the Wizards at 25/1 to win it all, while the Pacers are at 40/1. Wizards second favorite behind Miami to win the East. But what do those guys know?
XU 87
05-02-2014, 02:06 PM
I might try to help here. The Pacers are the only team in the East to have enough talent to beat the Heat. IF the Pacers were playing well, they have the capability to beat the Heat. But they are not playing well so as it stands, they can't beat the Heat and may not even get past the Hawks. If by some miracle the Pacers turn things around, and quickly, they could beat the Heat.
That said, there are no other teams in the East who have the talent that is capable enough to beat the Heat.
So one team (the Pacers) is capable of beating the Heat but probably won't even get the chance because they are playing lousy. The other teams have no capability to beat the Heat.
mistabeecee41
05-02-2014, 02:13 PM
BTW, Vegas odds have the Wizards at 25/1 to win it all, while the Pacers are at 40/1. Wizards second favorite behind Miami to win the East. But what do those guys know?
That number is clearly a bit skewed at this point. The Wizards have already advanced. If the Pacers had already advanced and it was the start of round 2, I'd agree with you.
I might try to help here. The Pacers are the only team in the East to have enough talent to beat the Heat. IF the Pacers were playing well, they have the capability to beat the Heat. But they are not playing well so as it stands, they can't beat the Heat and may not even get past the Hawks. If by some miracle the Pacers turn things around, and quickly, they could beat the Heat.
That said, there are no other teams in the East who have the talent that is capable enough to beat the Heat.
So one team (the Pacers) is capable of beating the Heat but probably won't even get the chance because they are playing lousy. The other teams have no capability to beat the Heat.
I don't think the Pacers are capable of beating the Heat whether they're playing well or not. I really don't think they match up well with them. The Heat are better or equal at every position. I honestly don't think the Pacers are any more talented than Washington. Paul George is better than Trevor Ariza (although not really right now) but after that I don't see where they would overmatch them. I mean there's no question John Wall is light years better than George Hill. Bradley Beal versus Lance Stephenson is interesting because they're completely different players. I think Lance could be a good defensive option to slow down Beal so I could justify giving Indiana the edge there. Nene is at least as good as David West, I'd say a bit better at this stage, but that would be one very fun matchup because of how fiery they both are. Gortat versus Hibbert? Don't make me laugh while I'm taking a sip in front of my laptop. Bench I'd give to Washington too. Indiana basically plays four guys off the bench, with CJ Watson being the most productive. Mahimbi and Scola can give you valuable minutes, but I'll take Martell Webster's scoring punch and Trevor Booker's overall game, and the wild card is the veteran Andre Miller, who has provided some awesome punch off the bench. People forget about him, because people don't watch or know about the Wizards, and I get that. But there is a big misconception regarding Indiana's talent. They are not as talented as people think. The have three REALLY good starters, but they are not more talented than Washington overall. The Wizards full roster right now is much better, deeper and more talented than it was for the vast majority of the year, when they were up and down.
I think people assume the Pacers are so talented because of their record. They were hot right out of the gates in the worse of the two conferences by far. But I think they are more regressing to the means than just playing terrible, although it's definitely a bit of both. They were never, ever anywhere near as good as Miami. Of course, neither is Washington or anyone else. Nobody in the East can touch the Heat from a talent standpoint or otherwise.
That number is clearly a bit skewed at this point. The Wizards have already advanced. If the Pacers had already advanced and it was the start of round 2, I'd agree with you.
That plays right into my point though. The Wizards are resting and waiting while the Pacers are playing a must-win game.
XU 87
05-02-2014, 02:41 PM
I don't think the Pacers are capable of beating the Heat whether they're playing well or not.
The Pacers took the Heat to a Game 7 last year in the playoffs. I think the Pacers had the best record in the NBA for much of the season. They are (or were) capable of beating the Heat. Capable is not the same as probable.
drudy23
05-02-2014, 02:46 PM
I might try to help here. The Pacers are the only team in the East to have enough talent to beat the Heat. IF the Pacers were playing well, they have the capability to beat the Heat. But they are not playing well so as it stands, they can't beat the Heat and may not even get past the Hawks. If by some miracle the Pacers turn things around, and quickly, they could beat the Heat.
That said, there are no other teams in the East who have the talent that is capable enough to beat the Heat.
So one team (the Pacers) is capable of beating the Heat but probably won't even get the chance because they are playing lousy. The other teams have no capability to beat the Heat.
We've all started there, been there, and are there now...PMI is the one confused. Apparently he thinks writing a bunch of paragraphs that we're not reading anyway will change the obvious.
The Pacers took the Heat to a Game 7 last year in the playoffs. I think the Pacers had the best record in the NBA for much of the season. They are (or were) capable of beating the Heat. Capable is not the same as probable.
The Pacers in last year's playoffs were ON FIRE. They played absolutely as well as they could've in the Miami series, but is that an indication of who they are? Who's to say other teams can't get that hot? It happens every year across sports. Look, they're a good team, but last year in the playoffs is not this year. Roy Hibbert played his best ball and then got paid, and has been horrible this year. You don't just flick a switch and change that. George Hill is just a guy, but he was good in that series last year. Paul George is a great player who isn't playing great right now, but he could turn it on I'm sure. Again, they have three guys who you'd expect to be solid every night, but this current Pacers team, playing well, is not good enough to beat Miami in my opinion. Plus, they've screwed with their team chemistry for whatever reason since then, and it's clearly shown to have affected them in a negative way. The best record in the East is not something to be discounted by any means, but I also don't think it's quite as much a measurement of who they are as some think. Let's be honest, if Miami really wanted to win the one seed, they would have. They rested guys strategically throughout the year and approached the season has the marathon it is. I'm not saying the Pacers aren't good. They can be really good. But they aren't as talented and great as Miami. Of course anyone could beat anyone, so capable isn't the perfect word. But anyone who ever thought Indiana was on Miami's tier was fooling themselves.
We've all started there, been there, and are there now...PMI is the one confused. Apparently he thinks writing a bunch of paragraphs that we're not reading anyway will change the obvious.
Ha! Douchey fluff is so much more convincing than making actual points. There's nothing like the guy who is conveniently smarter than everyone else but just doesn't feel like using his intelligence.
I guess Vegas is confused too though...
paulxu
05-03-2014, 08:57 PM
Well...Pacers and Wizards. This should be fun.
XUFan09
05-04-2014, 09:28 AM
I just hope the Pacers get their heads out of their asses. The Wizards are much better than the Hawks.
Sent from my DROID RAZR HD using Tapatalk
Well...Pacers and Wizards. This should be fun.
It should be fun indeed. Indiana looked like they did when they were racking up wins in the regular season yesterday, and the Hawks were clearly not good enough to beat them when they play like that. Paul George played like the star he is and Roy Hibbert finally made an appearance of some kind. I expect Indiana to play closer to that way the rest of the way after seeing them get it together, and I think that will make for a really entertaining back and forth series. Can't wait!
In all of the back and forth in this thread, one thing we haven't directly addressed was how the Wizards and Pacers match up against each other. I think it's a very interesting match up. A lot of people focus on how the Pacers might experience less trouble against Washington than they did with Atlanta because Washington also plays big in its front court, and I think there's definitely some validity there. Hibbert finally played like he actually belongs in the NBA in Game 7, but the Hawks don't posses any hint of a low post threat on either end like the Wizards do, so I'm not inclined to give big Roy the benefit of the doubt after one decent game. Gortat is a difficult assignment who has held his own against the best centers in the league all season. He's the definition of a solid true big man, which Washington hasn't had in well over a decade. What's interesting is that, like the Pacers, the Wizards don't play a "stretch" 4 or 5. David West and Nene can both pick you apart from mid range if you leave them, but neither is going to extend out to the perimeter offensively, nor will Hibbert nor Gortat obviously. I think West and Nene is going to be one of the most fun battles to watch in this postseason. I will set the early over/under for scuffles at 34.5. I think the battle down low is where some people are going to expect the Pacers to have an advantage, but I don't think it's going to be nearly as easy as many think. Most people still haven't even seen this Wizards team at full strength in the post, and those people will be surprised at how tough they are. I know everyone will call me an idiot because the NBA is one league where people seem to refuse to think outside of what they are familiar with, but if Hibbert doesn't play much better than he has most of the season, it's advantage Washington in the post. Nene and West are both going to go toe to toe, and foul trouble between the two might decide games quite honestly. But Gortat can bang with Roy, and if Roy reverts to the garbage he's been of late, Gortat will have his way. Roy will be playing his home town team, and gained some confidence yesterday, so hopefully he doesn't turn into the rare good Roy for a whole series, because that would cause us trouble on our offensive end (and foul trouble.)
As for the other match ups, I think everyone and their mother knows that Paul George holds the advantage over Trevor Ariza. Ariza will certainly make him earn his points. He's a better wing defender than anyone the Hawks put on George and he really takes that role seriously (won a title in LA in that role.) But George is also an excellent defender, and Ariza isn't going to look to create his own offense often. Leave him open and he's absolutely deadly from deep, and he'll crash the boards pretty well, but the advantage is undoubtably with the Pacers, as George is one of the best players in the NBA. John Wall versus George Hill is really a mismatch in favor of Washington. I expect George Hill to really struggle in this series, and I think we may see Indiana throw different defensive looks at Wall because they will easily know how bad a mismatch this is. John Wall has turned into one of the NBA's best at running an offense and penetrating a defense to create easy looks. He made the NBA's best defense look silly at times and he has matured so unbelievably much in his decision making and ability to control the tempo of a game. Simply put, if the Wizards are going to win the series, John Wall needs to be great. Lance Stephenson versus Bradley Beal will be an awesome storyline as well. I don't expect them to guard each other all the time by any means, but each of their teams rely on them big time. The Bearcat thug brings a more versatile skill set to the table for sure, but Beal is an outstanding pure shooter who can create his own offense extremely well, and is a very underrated defender and athlete who plays longer than he is.
People felt that the Pacers struggled with the Hawks partly because the Hawks live and die by the 3 and play smaller. I think in part that's true, but if a team is going to set NBA records jacking up threes, and can do little else effectively, the bigger team with the best player should be able to suffocate them, and that wasn't what happened most of the series. Of course, Game 7 the Pacers played by far their best game, and they did just that. I just don't know if one convincing win over the Hawks is enough to convince me that they can sustain the same effort and high level play for an entire series against a better team than Atlanta, but Washington also has to prove it can sustain its high level play against a better team than Chicago, so it should be intriguing. For Washington, it's going to come down to our young guards. They'll have to take another big, difficult step forward. I'm hoping they have it in them, and against a backcourt they're more talented than, I think they might. I'll be at the Wizards home games for all the fun. It'll be a great series.
mistabeecee41
05-05-2014, 08:30 PM
PMI is right - Wizards are better than the Pacers and will win this series.
Even D-West was disappointing tonight. He's being WAY too passive. His tough guy act is quite frankly getting annoying as well.
danaandvictory
05-05-2014, 09:42 PM
http://t.co/60l4hGl10A
LA Muskie
05-05-2014, 09:59 PM
PMI is right - Wizards are better than the Pacers and will win this series.
Even D-West was disappointing tonight. He's being WAY too passive. His tough guy act is quite frankly getting annoying as well.
Passive? He went for 15 and 12 and took 15 shots (2nd on the team to George). I didn't see the game but passivity doesn't sound like the issue. Him, George and Stephenson going a combined 14 for 45 does.
paulxu
05-05-2014, 10:08 PM
West's numbers were good, and he was +11
If you get zero points from Hibbert every game, it will be a short series.
waggy
05-05-2014, 10:26 PM
The shooting percentages tell the story. Pretty much brick city for the Pacer starters.
The shooting percentages tell the story. Pretty much brick city for the Pacer starters.
The only easy shot Paul George took tonight was a layup on a breakaway. Trevor Ariza not only went 6-6 from three and carried a big offensive load, but he also did a fantastic defensive job on Paul George. I knew he would, but I didn't think George would stay cold all night. I doubt that happens again in Game 2.
Guys, Roy Hibbert is not going to magically turn it around this year. It certainly isn't going to happen against the Wizards starting front court. He's is a bad player right now. He constantly gets out hustled, can't get anything going offensively, and plays lost defense. He has zero confidence while every Wizard's confidence is through the roof.
This series is still way, way too early. Anything can happen. But the Wizards were a much better team tonight. John Wall ran the show to perfection and Bradley Beal and Trevor Ariza stayed hot. The Wizards won virtually all five of the match ups between starters, although West versus Nene was probably the best battle. I'm sure many are going to spin it as the Pacers sucking again, and they weren't great by any means, but the Washington Wizards are playing some outstanding basketball right now. Just because they took time to develop into this team by getting healthy, adding some pieces, and having the young guys mature, does not mean they are some how lesser than a team that everyone thought could make a title push earlier in the year. Right now they are better. Indiana still has three guys who are good enough to keep them in, and eventually take the series, but it's very, very clear which team is better right now. I think taking Game 1 was enormous against an Indiana team that looked like they may have gotten it together. The Wizards can now keep playing loose while all the pressure in the world is on Indiana. I'm cautiously optimistic about the rest of the series.
Most people, even NBA fans, are still not very familiar with the Wizards, and probably haven't watched much, if any of their games all year. They are worth checking out right now. This is the best team basketball I've ever seen this franchise play, and it's not even close.
X-band '01
05-06-2014, 05:25 AM
I'm still trying to figure out why the Lakers were willing to let Ariza go and yet hang on to Andrew Bynum for as long as they possibly could.
Juice
05-06-2014, 06:36 AM
I'm still trying to figure out why the Lakers were willing to let Ariza go and yet hang on to Andrew Bynum for as long as they possibly could.
Really? Because for awhile Bynum was one of the best centers in the NBA and Ariza is simply a role player.
nuts4xu
05-06-2014, 07:49 AM
Ballyhoohoo was in the house for the Pacers last night, but didn't bring enough Xavier Nation karma for DFW to will his team to a victory.
I like the Wizards, they are fun to watch. But I can't root against my boy David Freaking West. The Pacers were once the best team in the East, but haven't played like it in weeks. With the way the Wizards are playing right now, it will be very tough for the Pacers to advance. You add in the fact the Pacers went to game 7 while the Wiz were sitting on their couches watching and resting, this will be a tough series for Indy to win.
Really? Because for awhile Bynum was one of the best centers in the NBA and Ariza is simply a role player.
Huh? Bynum was at one point a prospect who seemed like he would become one of the best centers in the NBA, but that definitely never came to fruition for more than a stretch here and there. And it was very brief. Ariza averaged over 15 ppg, is one of the best three point shooters in the league, and is one of the best wing defenders in the league. That is not "simply a role player" at all. Plus, just looking at the Lakers year, there is absolutely no chance LA wins that series without Ariza. There were stretches where he was the only one keeping them alive in that Finals.
I certainly understand why they went with Bynum over him, but those assessments of the players are way off.
mistabeecee41
05-06-2014, 09:00 AM
Passive? He went for 15 and 12 and took 15 shots (2nd on the team to George). I didn't see the game but passivity doesn't sound like the issue. Him, George and Stephenson going a combined 14 for 45 does.
I love him too. He's my hero. He took 15 shots but also passed up 2-3 he should have taken down the stretch. Sadly, it doesn't look like Paul George can carry this team. That means David West needs to take open shots. Leader of this team, he should know he can't pass up open looks to dish to Roy Hibbert for 18 footers with 3 minutes left in a crucial game.
Juice
05-06-2014, 09:30 AM
Huh? Bynum was at one point a prospect who seemed like he would become one of the best centers in the NBA, but that definitely never came to fruition for more than a stretch here and there. And it was very brief. Ariza averaged over 15 ppg, is one of the best three point shooters in the league, and is one of the best wing defenders in the league. That is not "simply a role player" at all. Plus, just looking at the Lakers year, there is absolutely no chance LA wins that series without Ariza. There were stretches where he was the only one keeping them alive in that Finals.
I certainly understand why they went with Bynum over him, but those assessments of the players are way off.
Bynum career average PER = 19.6
Ariza career average PER = 14.0
Bynum career average PER = 19.6
Ariza career average PER = 14.0
What good is a Player Efficiency Rating if you never play? Like I said, I get why the Lakers kept him. His potential was obviously much higher than Ariza's at a more important position. It was a risk worth taking, but it didn't pay off. Bynum is hot garbage now and I doubt he will ever return to being a threat of a top center. In any case, you are very wrong in calling Ariza just a role player, at this point in his career. It really can't be argued that he has developed into one of the very good two way wing players in the NBA. And I say this with doubt that the Wizards will keep him because he's earned the right to be paid heavily by someone.
Juice
05-06-2014, 12:29 PM
What good is a Player Efficiency Rating if you never play? Like I said, I get why the Lakers kept him. His potential was obviously much higher than Ariza's at a more important position. It was a risk worth taking, but it didn't pay off. Bynum is hot garbage now and I doubt he will ever return to being a threat of a top center. In any case, you are very wrong in calling Ariza just a role player, at this point in his career. It really can't be argued that he has developed into one of the very good two way wing players in the NBA. And I say this with doubt that the Wizards will keep him because he's earned the right to be paid heavily by someone.
He doesn't play because he's a nutjob. But when Bynum had his shit together, he was infinitely more valuable to the Lakers. I don't think it's a coincidence that Ariza has played for 6 different teams when he's 28 years old. He's a nice piece but he can be replaced. An all-star level center is hard to find.
He doesn't play because he's a nutjob. But when Bynum had his shit together, he was infinitely more valuable to the Lakers. I don't think it's a coincidence that Ariza has played for 6 different teams when he's 28 years old. He's a nice piece but he can be replaced. An all-star level center is hard to find.
I don't disagree with those points, but calling him a role player at this stage in his career is downright wrong. The reason he is going to be on another team again is because of how valuable he is, not the other way around. The Wizards can't afford to keep this starting five together, and he is the likely victim of that. But that doesn't change what he is, which is a 14.5 ppg scorer, one of the best three point shooters in the league, and one of the best defensive wings in the league. Simply put, he is one of the best two way SFs in the NBA right now. I get that fans usually fall for the big names before looking at the deeper story (see Hibbert, Roy) so guys like Ariza fly under the radar even though his production shows he's very, very good at his position, and pretty much just the next tier down after the truly great SFs. But Ariza is arguably the MVP right now (I don't think so but many people have made a good case) for a team that may well go to the conference finals. He will be paid as a big time starter next year, not a role player. That label is a slap in the face to a really good player. And FWIW, I thought that's what he would be here, but he's far beyond that for sure.
As for Bynum, yes he's a head case, but he's also a head case with terrible knees, a constant weight problem, and a laughable work ethic. These are things that good franchises try to avoid if possible. Again, I totally agree that he's a more valuable player when he's right, and it was a risk worth taking, but you have to weigh everything, and frankly, Bynum has always proven to be little more than high potential with some spurts of efficient play. Greg Oden could also be argued to be an All Star level center when healthy, to put it in perspective.
waggy
05-06-2014, 02:15 PM
If you're a Pacers fan you've probably been wondering what's been up with Roy Hibbert's game lately. It seems that as a team, the Indiana Pacers have just stopped gelling. According to the Baller Mail below, the collapse of team unity may have a lot to do with Roy Hibbert finding out that team mate (and new father) Paul George has been sleeping with Hibbert's wife (or fiancé), Valerie Cooke. Yikes!
More here..
http://www.balleralert.com/xn/detail/2015113:BlogPost:1802565?xg_source=activity#ixzz30 wP2ybPm
GoMuskies
05-06-2014, 02:23 PM
At least George had the decency not to sleep with Hibbert's mom (I assume)
waggy
05-06-2014, 02:26 PM
In reference to the guy that played at St. Joe's?
More here..
http://www.balleralert.com/xn/detail/2015113:BlogPost:1802565?xg_source=activity#ixzz30 wP2ybPm
Didn't really want to bring that "rumor" up but yes, there is apparently some definite truth to certain, shall we say, tensions inside that locker room.
Xville
05-07-2014, 08:15 AM
if true, which is probably very unlikely, (though something is going on between Hibbert's ears) I will never understand it. If you are George, you are a multimillionaire with presumably a pick of about a hundred chicks who want to screw your brains out every single night, and you choose to do that with another teammates girl? What the hell for? Also, if the pictures on the internet are truly her...again I don't get it....if you are going to scoop up a whore, at least pick up a hot one...there are plenty to choose from at NBA games.
if true, which is probably very unlikely, (though something is going on between Hibbert's ears) I will never understand it. If you are George, you are a multimillionaire with presumably a pick of about a hundred chicks who want to screw your brains out every single night, and you choose to do that with another teammates girl? What the hell for? Also, if the pictures on the internet are truly her...again I don't get it....if you are going to scoop up a whore, at least pick up a hot one...there are plenty to choose from at NBA games.
Makes no sense at all. I guess he's just into the whole forbidden fruit thing. If it's true, I really feel bad for David West, a veteran who has been a great leader of that team since he's gotten there, who is now stuck in the middle of this unnecessary soap opera inside the locker room. It also brings me to the greater question: Is there anything too big in life for the power of sex to screw up?
nuts4xu
05-07-2014, 09:34 AM
Is there anything too big in life for the power of sex to screw up?
The penis is a powerful weapon.
Last night was very frustrating to watch, but it did nothing but reaffirm my belief that the Wizards are the better team. The Wizards shot abysmally all night long from the field, from three and from the line, but they did not let it effect their staunch defense. They were sloppy with the ball, and John Wall played his worst game probably since February. On top of it, Roy Hibbert played as well as he is capable of (and let's make no mistake, the game was called perfectly for him) and the Pacers played pretty well overall despite not shooting well either. The crowd was very much into it all night and Nene missed some time after rolling his ankle. And despite all of that, we still had a chance to win this game on the road with under 30 seconds left. It sucks to lose, but that game gave me as much confidence as Game 1 did, even in a completely different final result. The Verizon Center is going to be electric Friday night and I expect the Bullets to get off to a hot start and run a bunch.
With Hibbert, I've got to give the big guy a ton of due credit. The Little Hoya finally pulled his head out of his ass and you no longer heard him thinking through your TV on every possession. It was very annoying watching our big guys rack up complete ghost fouls every time he crouched in the post and shuffled his big size 40s around the paint, but he definitely brought it last night, and I wouldn't be surprised if Wittman threw a different defensive look at him early in Game 3, because I don't think Hibbert is very good at adjusting when he has to and he can get frustrated easily and disappear. My lone fear going into tomorrow's game is that Paul George still hasn't really done anything in this series yet, and that can't last. Otherwise, I have no doubt who the better team is right now. You can't win an NBA playoff game shooting 5-21 from three and 40% at the line. That won't happen at home. Brush it off, realize you're the better team, and come out guns a blazing at the Phone Booth.
nuts4xu
05-08-2014, 09:40 AM
The Wiz may be the better team over the course of this series, which is all you need in the NBA playoffs. I am not sure they are the better team over all, these next 5 games will figure that out.
But if Hibbert plays anywhere close to what he did last night (and that is a HUGE IF) it will be a competitive fun series to watch.
Xville
05-08-2014, 10:03 AM
The Wiz may be the better team over the course of this series, which is all you need in the NBA playoffs. I am not sure they are the better team over all, these next 5 games will figure that out.
But if Hibbert plays anywhere close to what he did last night (and that is a HUGE IF) it will be a competitive fun series to watch.
If, (and I think it is a big if at this point) Hibbert is back to what he was, the Wizards are not winning this series. The Wizards are a good team, not a great team. They do have a great backcourt...Wall and Beal are great pieces and probably one of the best backcourts in the game. However, the Wizards are still missing something (and I mean to be able to compete with the Heat and the West Front runners) and I think it is in the front court. Yes NeNe and Gortat are fine, but they aren't going to win you championships at least not without the Wizards adding a superstar. The NBA is a star-driven league and you need 2 and usually 3 of them to compete to win a championship. The Wizards are close but aren't there yet...Beal is still young and is going to be inconsistent...if he keeps developing he could turn into a superstar, and Wall is awesome even with his bad game last night. However, This is why I argued time and time again...that in the east, the only way the Heat are going to be challenged is if the Pacers come back to what they were, not in the construct of how they finished the season. If the Pacers are back (which remains to be seen) they have a star in George, a star in Hibbert (if he is back), a great SG in Born Ready, and a consistent leader in West. Not saying they will beat the Heat (if they make it out of the series) but it is the only chance of the Heat being threatened before the finals.
PMI replying to my post about how wrong I am blah blah blah in 5....4....3...2....1
mistabeecee41
05-08-2014, 10:51 AM
Glad to see the series got interesting. Could go either way at this point. On one hand, John Wall was bad last night, and won't play that poorly in another game this series.
On the other hand - the Pacers pulled it off despite PG, DWest and Lance all being off. If they can FINALLY get all of these guys to click on the same night, The Wiz are in trouble. Hibbert's not going to give them 30 every night, but if he can get back to giving them 10-15 points and stay in the game, I like the Pacers chances.
XUFan09
05-08-2014, 12:05 PM
Rebounding and FTs were the competing factors in this game, as both teams didn't shoot well and there wasn't a wide TO margin.
The Wizards stayed in it because they held the Pacers to an 11% offensive rebounding rate while notching a 24% offensive rebounding rate themselves. Their own offensive rebounding rate wasn't good, but that's an impressive job on the defensive glass.
The Pacers ended up winning because they went to the line more (21 vs. 12 FTA) and they made their freebies (18-21 vs. 5-12).
Hibbert being "back" is a real double edged sword. While he drastically improved his scoring, all other starters had lower numbers this game. It's still apparent that they don't know how to play together.
Glad to see the series got interesting. Could go either way at this point. On one hand, John Wall was bad last night, and won't play that poorly in another game this series.
On the other hand - the Pacers pulled it off despite PG, DWest and Lance all being off. If they can FINALLY get all of these guys to click on the same night, The Wiz are in trouble. Hibbert's not going to give them 30 every night, but if he can get back to giving them 10-15 points and stay in the game, I like the Pacers chances.
By that logic, if Wall and Ariza go off offensively in the same game, the Pacers are in big trouble. Washington got good numbers from Gortat last night, but got nothing from Ariza and Wall. That game works both ways. 09 is correct that the glaring difference in the game was free throws. The Wizards didn't get to the line, and when they did, they missed. The Pacers did get to the line and hit theirs. I'm not going to get started on how bad the officiating was because that's just the nature of the beast in the NBA. I knew damn well going into that game we were going to have to find a way to win without getting calls. It is what it is. The Pacers needed every one of those free throws and needed John Wall to play horrendously down the stretch to avoid going down 0-2 at home. I think they're in trouble if the Wizards continue to play the way they have, because they aren't going to have many nights shooting that poorly from three, and the Pacers offense really hasn't had an answer for our defense. I know Roy went off, but there was little flow to their offense whereas our lack of offense was more the result of missed open shots.
Hibbert being "back" is a real double edged sword. While he drastically improved his scoring, all other starters had lower numbers this game. It's still apparent that they don't know how to play together.
This is definitely true. The Pacers did not solve any of their offensive issues last night just because Hibbert was scoring. They can't rebound offensively, they don't have a good PG, and they get caught at the end of their shot clocks way too often, having to take bad shots. You couldn't even keep count of how many possessions involved Stephenson, George or Hill just dominating the ball for 15 seconds and dribbling aimlessly before jacking up a bad shot. Again, last night gave me more confidence than Game 1 that the Wizards are a better team than the Pacers.
XUFan09
05-09-2014, 08:28 PM
Ugly game at half, which favors the Pacers. Ariza is doing a lot to keep the Wizards in there, not simply because he's scoring efficiently but also (and maybe more importantly) because he's pulled down 5 offensive rebounds.
Xville
05-09-2014, 09:05 PM
The real Pacers team is back. Stingy defense, great ball movement, and veteran leadership. Pacers are winning this series. As I said before the series began, the wiz have some nice pieces but they aren't there yet...they need to grow up a bit and they need another piece or two.
GoMuskies
05-09-2014, 09:06 PM
The Wiz are taking a solid ass-kicking so far. 45 points through three quarters? In the NBA?!? Brutal.
DC Muskie
05-09-2014, 09:27 PM
The real Pacers team is back. Stingy defense, great ball movement, and veteran leadership. Pacers are winning this series. As I said before the series began, the wiz have some nice pieces but they aren't there yet...they need to grow up a bit and they need another piece or two.
I don't really have a dog in this fight, but i have followed the playoffs a lot this season because there have been fantastic series in the first round.
The Pacers are playing well. This game. But their body of work for the past two months have not shown the consistency to think that they will win this series. This is easily the worst game the Wizards have played so far. Again this is only one game. This series in my opinion, is far from over.
XUFan09
05-09-2014, 09:33 PM
I don't really have a dog in this fight, but i have followed the playoffs a lot this season because there have been fantastic series in the first round.
The Pacers are playing well. This game. But their body of work for the past two months have not shown the consistency to think that they will win this series. This is easily the worst game the Wizards have played so far. Again this is only one game. This series in my opinion, is far from over.
As a Pacers fan, I agree. I would love for the Pacers to be back for good, but I'm not confident in that. The Wizards have the ability to still win this series and, yes, to upset the Heat if they're hot. Even if the Pacers have their heads out of their asses, they could still get upset by the Wizards.
I will say this: If Hibbert has come back to something approaching his All-Star play earlier in this season, then the match-up at center goes to him over Gortat. Also, with how Mahinmi is playing this season, especially in the last month or two, that ensures a consistent great rim protector to complement the perimeter defenders (which is the foundation for why the Pacers defense was so good).
Xville
05-09-2014, 09:42 PM
As a Pacers fan, I agree. I would love for the Pacers to be back for good, but I'm not confident in that. The Wizards have the ability to still win this series and, yes, to upset the Heat if they're hot. Even if the Pacers have their heads out of their asses, they could still get upset by the Wizards.
I will say this: If Hibbert has come back to something approaching his All-Star play earlier in this season, then the match-up at center goes to him over Gortat. Also, with how Mahinmi is playing this season, especially in the last month or two, that ensures a consistent great rim protector to complement the perimeter defenders (which is the foundation for why the Pacers defense was so good).
Are u kidding me? The wizards have the ability to beat the heat if they are hot. What kind of crack rock are u smoking? The wizards stand zero..let me repeat...zero chance of even coming close to the heat in a series. It's unbelievable how some of you think the wizards are such a great team. They have a good backcourt who are still both incredibly young and inexperienced, their front court is average. I'm done with this thread until this series is over...it's like I'm in the twilight zone with some of your people's opinions
XUFan09
05-09-2014, 10:30 PM
Are u kidding me? The wizards have the ability to beat the heat if they are hot. What kind of crack rock are u smoking? The wizards stand zero..let me repeat...zero chance of even coming close to the heat in a series. It's unbelievable how some of you think the wizards are such a great team. They have a good backcourt who are still both incredibly young and inexperienced, their front court is average. I'm done with this thread until this series is over...it's like I'm in the twilight zone with some of your people's opinions
Did I say that? Did anyone say that? Nope. So let's stop with the false dichotomy, where if you actually think the Wizards have a shot against the Heat, then you must think they're great. If the Wizards are hot, they fall within the normal range of play of the Heat. The Heat would still have the advantage in that scenario, but it would be a worthwhile series. You clearly paid too much attention to the hyberbole of the pundits this season while not enough attention to the actual games these teams have played this season.
Are u kidding me? The wizards have the ability to beat the heat if they are hot. What kind of crack rock are u smoking? The wizards stand zero..let me repeat...zero chance of even coming close to the heat in a series. It's unbelievable how some of you think the wizards are such a great team. They have a good backcourt who are still both incredibly young and inexperienced, their front court is average. I'm done with this thread until this series is over...it's like I'm in the twilight zone with some of your people's opinions
You have proven to be the definition of the ESPN-fed ignorant fan, with your many posts in this thread. The problem is, while the Wizards can't beat the Heat, neither can the Pacers, and it isn't even close to being close. The reason you think the Pacers can beat the Heat if they're playing well is because of last year, and you are dead wrong. Last night was one of the WORST NBA playoff games ever played. The Pacers would have lost to any other team left in the postseason, but luckily for them, they drew the team that shot worse than any NBA team has all year. Taking away Scola's garbage time padding, the Pacers basically scored under 80 points. You think they could've even kept fans in the building in the 4th quarter against Miami?
Also, you are dead wrong about the Wizards front court, as I've beaten to death previously. Gortat and Nene are every bit as good a front court as Hibbert and West, which may be blasphemy around here, but it's been verified in this postseason, last night not withstanding. You act like people here are saying the Wizards are the greatest team in the history of the league. What you're missing is that everyone else other than you can see that Indiana just isn't that good. Certainly not in Miami's realm. The Wizards got smoked last night because they had literally as bad a shooting night as a team could have in the NBA. It's a 2-1 series. You were waiting for the Pacers to put up 80 points to come back here and pound your chest, and you are going to look like an idiot if Washington has an average shooting night Sunday, because they are the better team.
GoMuskies
05-11-2014, 10:01 PM
Looks like the very flawed Pacers are superior to the even more flawed Wiz.
Heat in 4, or Heat in 5?
waggy
05-11-2014, 11:24 PM
Pacers in 7.
Retire33
05-12-2014, 01:37 AM
Looks like the very flawed Pacers are superior to the even more flawed Wiz.
Heat in 4, or Heat in 5?
Nothing brings the best out in the Pacers then when they play the Heat. I will go at least 6. If it gets to game 7, I believe Pacers win that.
drudy23
05-12-2014, 08:04 AM
I don't know where PMI comes from, but he has some "opinions" that basically him and only him believe. He doesn't seem to realize that.
It was obvious before the series, it's obvious during the series, and even after they lose, he'll still think the Wiz can hang with the elite of the East. For those that are unable to see what's obvious right in front of them, there's no words in the world to convince them otherwise.
Instead of listening, he'll write aniother 15 paragraph response that know one really reads anyway.
mistabeecee41
05-12-2014, 10:22 AM
I don't know where PMI comes from, but he has some "opinions" that basically him and only him believe. He doesn't seem to realize that.
It was obvious before the series, it's obvious during the series, and even after they lose, he'll still think the Wiz can hang with the elite of the East. For those that are unable to see what's obvious right in front of them, there's no words in the world to convince them otherwise.
Instead of listening, he'll write aniother 15 paragraph response that know one really reads anyway.
Not this year, but they'll continue to improve year after year with Wall and Beal. I'm not a big fan of the Nene/Gortat frontcourt with the rest of their starting lineup.
They also need bench help. Otto Porter was unusable. Andre Miller is old. Martell Webster is a good bench player but they paid WAY too much to keep him. Who the hell is Garrett Temple? Imagine if Jordan Crawford wasn't such a shithead and would have accepted the fact that John Wall and Beal are better than him. A combo guard who can put the ball in the basket would have done wonders for their bench.
I don't know where PMI comes from, but he has some "opinions" that basically him and only him believe. He doesn't seem to realize that.
It was obvious before the series, it's obvious during the series, and even after they lose, he'll still think the Wiz can hang with the elite of the East. For those that are unable to see what's obvious right in front of them, there's no words in the world to convince them otherwise.
Instead of listening, he'll write aniother 15 paragraph response that know one really reads anyway.
Your act is really getting tired. I literally never said ANY of the things you think I did, which is not a surprise considering you admittedly don't read anything. John Wall has played horrendously the last three games and cost the Wizards a chance to beat a team that frankly is decent at best. Believe what you want. The Wizards gave two games away with a bow on top in this series. The youth and poor play of Wall is the biggest reason for this.
What am I doing? Am I really wasting my time with a clown who thinks all point guards are created equally in ball handling?
drudy23
05-12-2014, 10:31 AM
Not this year, but they'll continue to improve year after year with Wall and Beal. I'm not a big fan of the Nene/Gortat frontcourt with the rest of their starting lineup.
They also need bench help. Otto Porter was unusable. Andre Miller is old. Martell Webster is a good bench player but they paid WAY too much to keep him. Who the hell is Garrett Temple? Imagine if Jordan Crawford wasn't such a shithead and would have accepted the fact that John Wall and Beal are better than him. A combo guard who can put the ball in the basket would have done wonders for their bench.
If if's and but's were candy and nuts, we'd all have a wonderful Christmas.
Not this year, but they'll continue to improve year after year with Wall and Beal. I'm not a big fan of the Nene/Gortat frontcourt with the rest of their starting lineup.
They also need bench help. Otto Porter was unusable. Andre Miller is old. Martell Webster is a good bench player but they paid WAY too much to keep him. Who the hell is Garrett Temple? Imagine if Jordan Crawford wasn't such a shithead and would have accepted the fact that John Wall and Beal are better than him. A combo guard who can put the ball in the basket would have done wonders for their bench.
Jordan Crawford is the last thing the team needs. Look at him on Golden State. Yes, he can get hot, but he absolutely kills the flow of an offense and doesn't do shit off the ball on defense. I'm really glad he's not on the Wizards anymore. The Wizards, like just about every NBA team, could certainly use help on the bench. Judgement must be reserved for Otto Porter, as he basically had a redshirt year with injuries and a lack of a real opportunity for PT. Of course the Wizards could use a good big man, but the current front court has been very effective when healthy this year. Problem is, Ernie Grunfeld is an idiot and will probably find a way to screw everything up. At least the backcourt is set.
As for the Pacers, there is no way in hell they can beat the Heat. They aren't even on the same planet. As I've said all along, it's just not a good match up, and that's before you take into account that the Heat are just flat out better.
drudy23
05-12-2014, 10:33 AM
Your act is really getting tired. I literally never said ANY of the things you think I did, which is not a surprise considering you admittedly don't read anything. John Wall has played horrendously the last three games and cost the Wizards a chance to beat a team that frankly is decent at best. Believe what you want. The Wizards gave two games away with a bow on top in this series. The youth and poor play of Wall is the biggest reason for this.
What am I doing? Am I really wasting my time with a clown who thinks all point guards are created equally in ball handling?
I believe what I see, not what you think is reality.
And yes, all PGs going to major D-I programs have great handles....some are elite, but none are bad.
If if's and but's were candy and nuts, we'd all have a wonderful Christmas.
Literally the only kind of comment you're good for around here. God forbid you actually ever had a legitimate, substantial point to make.
GoMuskies
05-12-2014, 10:34 AM
And yes, all PGs going to major D-I programs have great handles....some are elite, but none are bad.
I thought Johnny Wolf's handles kinda sucked.
And yes, I just wanted to post about Johnny Wolf because it's been too damned long!
I thought Johnny Wolf's handles kinda sucked.
And yes, I just wanted to post about Johnny Wolf because it's been too damned long!
Blasphemy! Johnny Wolf and Drew Lavender had virtually the same ball handling skills, since, you know, they were both point guards.
drudy23
05-12-2014, 10:55 AM
And there lies the issue...you "think" Johnny Wolf's handles sucked. Guess what, they didn't. Johnny Wolf also wasn't recruited to play PG...he was a scoring 2. And never once did I say all PGs have the same level of ball handling skill....I said they all have great ball handling skills. Some are elite, but none are bad. It's an ABSOLUTE pre-requisite for success at the position.
Xville
05-12-2014, 10:58 AM
You have proven to be the definition of the ESPN-fed ignorant fan, with your many posts in this thread. The problem is, while the Wizards can't beat the Heat, neither can the Pacers, and it isn't even close to being close. The reason you think the Pacers can beat the Heat if they're playing well is because of last year, and you are dead wrong. Last night was one of the WORST NBA playoff games ever played. The Pacers would have lost to any other team left in the postseason, but luckily for them, they drew the team that shot worse than any NBA team has all year. Taking away Scola's garbage time padding, the Pacers basically scored under 80 points. You think they could've even kept fans in the building in the 4th quarter against Miami?
Also, you are dead wrong about the Wizards front court, as I've beaten to death previously. Gortat and Nene are every bit as good a front court as Hibbert and West, which may be blasphemy around here, but it's been verified in this postseason, last night not withstanding. You act like people here are saying the Wizards are the greatest team in the history of the league. What you're missing is that everyone else other than you can see that Indiana just isn't that good. Certainly not in Miami's realm. The Wizards got smoked last night because they had literally as bad a shooting night as a team could have in the NBA. It's a 2-1 series. You were waiting for the Pacers to put up 80 points to come back here and pound your chest, and you are going to look like an idiot if Washington has an average shooting night Sunday, because they are the better team.
ok i know i said i was done posting until this series is over, but I apologize as I just can't let PMI get away with his constant backtracking and ifs of why the wizards are about to lose this series. First of all, most of what you said here is a complete lie.
1.) You have proven to be the definition of the ESPN-fed ignorant fan, with your many posts in this thread.
False. I don't watch NBA pundits nor read anything in relation to what some "expert" is trying to tell me. They aren't experts...they are just guys with opinions just like everyone else. So I don't base my opinions based off of them. I base my opinions on what I see and what I have seen in the past with the NBA. This is why I knew the Wizards were not going to beat the Pacers. Their best players are too inexperienced...which is their back court. They have some pieces, but they are not there yet. They need to mature and they need to get better in the front court. The pacers are battle-tested and have had the same core of players for a few years now who have been thru the playoff grind. They understand what it takes to get thru the playoffs, they have had the pain of losing and that losing is a huge motivator. Second, the pacers are better...they have a bonifide superstar in George who again is playoff tested. The wizards may be there in a few years, if they keep their core but get a better front court player.
2.) The reason you think the Pacers can beat the Heat if they're playing well is because of last year,
False. I still don't think the Pacers can beat the Heat. What I said from the beginning is that the Pacers (if they returned to form which it looks like they have) is the only competition for the Heat from the east. The rest of the east is a cakewalk for the heat. The pacers have the ability to actually keep up with the heat for maybe 6-7 games, and have a one in thousand chance of pulling it off. Gun to the head do I think they can beat them? No I don't, but could be proven wrong.
3.) Also, you are dead wrong about the Wizards front court, as I've beaten to death previously. Gortat and Nene are every bit as good a front court as Hibbert and West, which may be blasphemy around here, but it's been verified in this postseason, last night not withstanding.
False. If that were true, the wizards would be up in the series. Hibbert is playing like he is capable of playing...finally.
4.) What you're missing is that everyone else other than you can see that Indiana just isn't that good.
If you think that's true...the wizards must be awful. Indiana is pretty damn good..they are a one seed for a reason. Did they have two months of looking like crap? yep. Do they have a now 2-3 year history of being a team that has shown that can at least compete with the heat? yep. Doesn't mean they can beat the heat, just means that they can compete well with them.
5.) You were waiting for the Pacers to put up 80 points to come back here and pound your chest, and you are going to look like an idiot if Washington has an average shooting night Sunday, because they are the better team.
No I'm not and no the wizards are not.
Instead of backtracking and giving us if and and buts as to why the Wizards are going to lose this series, why don't you just stand up and be a man and say that you were wrong?
drudy23
05-12-2014, 10:58 AM
Literally the only kind of comment you're good for around here. God forbid you actually ever had a legitimate, substantial point to make.
You're the only one who seems to disagree about this issue and the Pacer issue. Want to take a poll?
And the Pacers are better than the Wizards...well, because I say so. Their record or roster have apparently nothing to do with it.
GoMuskies
05-12-2014, 11:08 AM
And there lies the issue...you "think" Johnny Wolf's handles sucked. Guess what, they didn't.
So you "think" they didn't suck? Guess what, they kinda did.
And there lies the issue...you "think" Johnny Wolf's handles sucked. Guess what, they didn't. Johnny Wolf also wasn't recruited to play PG...he was a scoring 2. And never once did I say all PGs have the same level of ball handling skill....I said they all have great ball handling skills. Some are elite, but none are bad. It's an ABSOLUTE pre-requisite for success at the position.
Johnny Wolf may have played SG against a bunch of unathletic GCL white boys, but he was never anything other than a point at Xavier. Again, relativity. Look it up. Yes, Wolf was an amazing ball handler compared to me, just like I'm probably an amazing musician compared to him.
ok i know i said i was done posting until this series is over, but I apologize as I just can't let PMI get away with his constant backtracking and ifs of why the wizards are about to lose this series. First of all, most of what you said here is a complete lie.
1.) You have proven to be the definition of the ESPN-fed ignorant fan, with your many posts in this thread.
False. I don't watch NBA pundits nor read anything in relation to what some "expert" is trying to tell me. They aren't experts...they are just guys with opinions just like everyone else. So I don't base my opinions based off of them. I base my opinions on what I see and what I have seen in the past with the NBA. This is why I knew the Wizards were not going to beat the Pacers. Their best players are too inexperienced...which is their back court. They have some pieces, but they are not there yet. They need to mature and they need to get better in the front court. The pacers are battle-tested and have had the same core of players for a few years now who have been thru the playoff grind. They understand what it takes to get thru the playoffs, they have had the pain of losing and that losing is a huge motivator. Second, the pacers are better...they have a bonifide superstar in George who again is playoff tested. The wizards may be there in a few years, if they keep their core but get a better front court player.
2.) The reason you think the Pacers can beat the Heat if they're playing well is because of last year,
False. I still don't think the Pacers can beat the Heat. What I said from the beginning is that the Pacers (if they returned to form which it looks like they have) is the only competition for the Heat from the east. The rest of the east is a cakewalk for the heat. The pacers have the ability to actually keep up with the heat for maybe 6-7 games, and have a one in thousand chance of pulling it off. Gun to the head do I think they can beat them? No I don't, but could be proven wrong.
3.) Also, you are dead wrong about the Wizards front court, as I've beaten to death previously. Gortat and Nene are every bit as good a front court as Hibbert and West, which may be blasphemy around here, but it's been verified in this postseason, last night not withstanding.
False. If that were true, the wizards would be up in the series. Hibbert is playing like he is capable of playing...finally.
4.) What you're missing is that everyone else other than you can see that Indiana just isn't that good.
If you think that's true...the wizards must be awful. Indiana is pretty damn good..they are a one seed for a reason. Did they have two months of looking like crap? yep. Do they have a now 2-3 year history of being a team that has shown that can at least compete with the heat? yep. Doesn't mean they can beat the heat, just means that they can compete well with them.
5.) You were waiting for the Pacers to put up 80 points to come back here and pound your chest, and you are going to look like an idiot if Washington has an average shooting night Sunday, because they are the better team.
No I'm not and no the wizards are not.
Instead of backtracking and giving us if and and buts as to why the Wizards are going to lose this series, why don't you just stand up and be a man and say that you were wrong?
Dude, you are simply conveniently coming back here now that the Wizards have completely blown two games and are trailing. Your hindsight is remarkable. I stand by every one of my opinions. The Pacers have NOT been impressive in this series, save Paul George last night. If you think they would've competed with the Heat in any of those four games, you're... well, exactly what I've assumed you were this whole time, as it relates to understanding the NBA. I agree the Wizards have shown their youth. In fact, if you go back, I said that's something I feared. I never guaranteed victory because I know our core is young and I know that DC sports teams always let you down in the end anyway. What I've argued the whole time, and still stand by 100%, is that the Wizards are better built to match up with the Miami Heat than the Pacers.
Your points, as I'm sure you're missing, really don't make sense. The fact that the Pacers are up in the series is proof that their front court is better? Where do you get this? You don't have to do anything other than look at the numbers to see that Nene and Gortat have put up better playoff production than West and Hibbert. Your killer argument is, "No I'm not and no they're not." Fascinating.
You can disagree all you want. I'm the only one in this conversation who saw the Wizards play before this series, and I can tell when they are playing (and coaching) horribly. John Wall has cost us two games by regressing to his rookie ways, and it's against a team who has a point who simply cannot guard him. He is making unforced errors and playing extremely passively, and it's killing our offense. The Pacers have not had to be special to win games, not by a long shot. I find it highly entertaining that I'm being told to man up and admit that I'm the one who's wrong by a kid who thinks the Pacers look remotely like a typical NBA 1 seed. Regardless of what happens the rest of this series, it's Miami in 4 or 5, but that by no means changes my opinion of specific match ups, which believe fit or not, are measured by more than just unrelated results on the surface.
You're the only one who seems to disagree about this issue and the Pacer issue. Want to take a poll?
And the Pacers are better than the Wizards...well, because I say so. Their record or roster have apparently nothing to do with it.
I'm the only one who seems to disagree about Johnny Wolf and the skill that is ball handling? Uh, you better take that poll buddy.
RealDeal
05-12-2014, 11:37 AM
I thought Johnny Wolf's handles kinda sucked.
They did.
Xville
05-12-2014, 11:41 AM
Johnny Wolf may have played SG against a bunch of unathletic GCL white boys, but he was never anything other than a point at Xavier. Again, relativity. Look it up. Yes, Wolf was an amazing ball handler compared to me, just like I'm probably an amazing musician compared to him.
Dude, you are simply conveniently coming back here now that the Wizards have completely blown two games and are trailing. Your hindsight is remarkable. I stand by every one of my opinions. The Pacers have NOT been impressive in this series, save Paul George last night. If you think they would've competed with the Heat in any of those four games, you're... well, exactly what I've assumed you were this whole time, as it relates to understanding the NBA. I agree the Wizards have shown their youth. In fact, if you go back, I said that's something I feared. I never guaranteed victory because I know our core is young and I know that DC sports teams always let you down in the end anyway. What I've argued the whole time, and still stand by 100%, is that the Wizards are better built to match up with the Miami Heat than the Pacers.
Your points, as I'm sure you're missing, really don't make sense. The fact that the Pacers are up in the series is proof that their front court is better? Where do you get this? You don't have to do anything other than look at the numbers to see that Nene and Gortat have put up better playoff production than West and Hibbert. Your killer argument is, "No I'm not and no they're not." Fascinating.
You can disagree all you want. I'm the only one in this conversation who saw the Wizards play before this series, and I can tell when they are playing (and coaching) horribly. John Wall has cost us two games by regressing to his rookie ways, and it's against a team who has a point who simply cannot guard him. He is making unforced errors and playing extremely passively, and it's killing our offense. The Pacers have not had to be special to win games, not by a long shot. I find it highly entertaining that I'm being told to man up and admit that I'm the one who's wrong by a kid who thinks the Pacers look remotely like a typical NBA 1 seed. Regardless of what happens the rest of this series, it's Miami in 4 or 5, but that by no means changes my opinion of specific match ups, which believe fit or not, are measured by more than just unrelated results on the surface.
you're a joke. hindsight? interesting...its not hindsight when i said the pacers were going to beat the wizards before the series even began...but you keep on with that revisionist history of yours. You are so blinded by your fandom that you can't even admit you are wrong. It is sad really. Maybe you need a hug?
Yes it is proof that their front court is better, if it wasn't, the pacers would not be winning this series. If you want to point to stats the Wizards front court put up against the bulls great...however, that doesn't mean squat when the wizards are playing the pacers.
yes my argument about "no i'm not and no they're not" is fascinating because i'm not the idiot...the wizards are not the better team, if they were they wouldn't lose this series...which they are going to do. you are the idiot because you can't admit that you were just flat out wrong. You can call it all you want about the wizards paying horribly, thats fascinating...except no one cares. just admit you were wrong that the wizards are a better team than the pacers because its obvious (3-1 buddy it doesn't matter how you spin it). Saying the Wizards are a better team just makes you look like a complete idiot.
XUFan09
05-12-2014, 11:46 AM
I'm far closer to PMI's opinion than that of his opponents, and I'm quite familiar with the three teams involved, as they are the three teams I watch the most. I root for Indiana, I live in Washington's local viewing area, and I find Miami compelling to watch as Indiana's biggest opponent.
I think results-based arguments are ridiculous, by the way. Games 2 and 4 were helluva close. Heck, Game 4 involved a crazy and unlikely comeback. The Wizards could easily be tied in this series or even winning. And people think the results are actually worthwhile evidence? Even crazier, when talking about a specific subset of the respective teams and not the teams as a whole? Doesn't make sense.
Also, though the Pacers are playing better than in the month of April, they still aren't back to their mid-season form. Because of that, it is quite possible that the Wizards are the tougher match-up for the Heat and more likely to beat them.
Xville
05-12-2014, 11:59 AM
I'm far closer to PMI's opinion than that of his opponents, and I'm quite familiar with the three teams involved, as they are the three teams I watch the most. I root for Indiana, I live in Washington's local viewing area, and I find Miami compelling to watch as Indiana's biggest opponent.
I think results-based arguments are ridiculous, by the way. Games 2 and 4 were helluva close. Heck, Game 4 involved a crazy and unlikely comeback. The Wizards could easily be tied in this series or even winning. And people think the results are actually worthwhile evidence? Even crazier, when talking about a specific subset of the respective teams and not the teams as a whole? Doesn't make sense.
Also, though the Pacers are playing better than in the month of April, they still aren't back to their mid-season form. Because of that, it is quite possible that the Wizards are the tougher match-up for the Heat and more likely to beat them.
wow this really is the twilight zone. results based arguments are ridiculous? wow...just wow. i guess that is how you get by though....results don't mean anything to you, just your opinion and what distorted reality you see is the truth.
Xville
05-12-2014, 12:18 PM
results really get in the way of people's opinions sometimes. It really is a shame. In a best of seven series, the better team wins the series....this isn't a one game thing where someone just had an off night. You are what your record says you are.
XUFan09
05-12-2014, 12:39 PM
We're talking a situation where it could easily have swung the other way. "Look at what happened!" doesn't mean much here. It's not like the margin in the Pacers' one loss was 1, and the margin in their three wins was double digits each time. If that had been the case (or something close to that but a little less extreme), then yeah, results matter. But that's not what happened.
Xville
05-12-2014, 12:47 PM
We're talking a situation where it could easily have swung the other way. "Look at what happened!" doesn't mean much here. It's not like the margin in the Pacers' one loss was 1, and the margin in their three wins was double digits each time. If that had been the case (or something close to that but a little less extreme), then yeah, results matter. But that's not what happened.
shoulda coulda woulda if,and, but. The results matter and is the only rational way to make an argument stick; whether you choose to ignore them or not, is an entirely different situation and is your decision.
drudy23
05-12-2014, 12:48 PM
[QUOTE=XUFan09;451092] And people think the results are actually worthwhile evidence? Doesn't make sense.
QUOTE]
You can't be for real? At this point, might as well just throw the Celtics into the playoffs then.
You cannot argue with someon that says something like this.
Xville
05-12-2014, 12:52 PM
the bucks are an incredible team...they match up better with the heat because i say so.
you're a joke. hindsight? interesting...its not hindsight when i said the pacers were going to beat the wizards before the series even began...but you keep on with that revisionist history of yours. You are so blinded by your fandom that you can't even admit you are wrong. It is sad really. Maybe you need a hug?
Yes it is proof that their front court is better, if it wasn't, the pacers would not be winning this series. If you want to point to stats the Wizards front court put up against the bulls great...however, that doesn't mean squat when the wizards are playing the pacers.
yes my argument about "no i'm not and no they're not" is fascinating because i'm not the idiot...the wizards are not the better team, if they were they wouldn't lose this series...which they are going to do. you are the idiot because you can't admit that you were just flat out wrong. You can call it all you want about the wizards paying horribly, thats fascinating...except no one cares. just admit you were wrong that the wizards are a better team than the pacers because its obvious (3-1 buddy it doesn't matter how you spin it). Saying the Wizards are a better team just makes you look like a complete idiot.
My opinion seems to be causing you a great deal of anger and frustration. I think that's unfortunate. Let me explain to you what I mean re hindsight. You were nowhere to be found after the Wizards went up 1-0. I believe you watched the game, and I believe you felt like the Pacers were in trouble, because you'd have to really be lacking brain cells to think otherwise after watching Game 1. I've been in here after every Wizards loss, not hiding from any of it. Yet I am the one who needs to man up and admit that I was wrong about a result that isn't even final yet. You harp on results this and results that, and the eye test and other individual factors mean absolutely nothing, yet you don't even wait until the series is over before patting yourself on the back, after being conveniently AWOL when things weren't looking as good. You, sir, are the definition of the anonymous internet coward.
Look, if this is what you want from me, here you go: I did not think the Wizards would be down 3-1 at this point. I don't believe the Wizards should be down 3-1 at this point based on what Indiana has shown them, but they've unfortunately played really poorly, and their best player is hurting them. In the world of sports, believe it or not, a lot of different things can happen. For example, if the Pacers play the way they've been playing, and the Wizards get their shit together (most notably Wall), they can go right back into Indiana and take one, and then this thing gets interesting again. I don't know if Wall has it in him or not. He certainly has shown a poor mental game the last couple nights, but he's also a really good player who might figure it out in time.
But here is what you truly fail to understand in all of this. You have not been proven correct in anything yet. Not a single thing. Your theory that the only way Miami gets a challenge is if the Pacers play well again is still just an unproven theory that I disagree with, as much as you think you've been verified somehow. Your theory that the Pacers front court is better solely because, despite putting up slightly worse numbers, they are up 3-1, is based on absolute zero logic. My counter to that would be that the reason the Pacers are up 3-1, from the perspective of what THEY have done well, is almost solely the difference between Paul George and Trevor Ariza over the past couple games, which if you remember, I noted was a significant difference going into this series.
You can cry online and call me an idiot all you want, but I will not admit to a damn thing that hasn't happened. If the Pacers win this series and then go give Miami a legitimate scare, I will come back here and give you the E-gratification you so desperately desire. Again, the only one missing around here when it's convenient has been you. But if you're looking for someone to buy into your warped idea that the Wizards giving away two games they should have won means that the Pacers are the only match up that can test the Heat, you better find an even bigger idiot than me.
I also find it very amusing that you think my being a fan has blinded me in any way, considering I am always the pessimistic naysayer when it comes to the Wizards, and have been proven wrong about how good (or lack thereof) I thought they'd be, not the other way around.
Xville
05-12-2014, 01:14 PM
My opinion seems to be causing you a great deal of anger and frustration. I think that's unfortunate. Let me explain to you what I mean re hindsight. You were nowhere to be found after the Wizards went up 1-0. I believe you watched the game, and I believe you felt like the Pacers were in trouble, because you'd have to really be lacking brain cells to think otherwise after watching Game 1. I've been in here after every Wizards loss, not hiding from any of it. Yet I am the one who needs to man up and admit that I was wrong about a result that isn't even final yet. You harp on results this and results that, and the eye test and other individual factors mean absolutely nothing, yet you don't even wait until the series is over before patting yourself on the back, after being conveniently AWOL when things weren't looking as good. You, sir, are the definition of the anonymous internet coward.
Look, if this is what you want from me, here you go: I did not think the Wizards would be down 3-1 at this point. I don't believe the Wizards should be down 3-1 at this point based on what Indiana has shown them, but they've unfortunately played really poorly, and their best player is hurting them. In the world of sports, believe it or not, a lot of different things can happen. For example, if the Pacers play the way they've been playing, and the Wizards get their shit together (most notably Wall), they can go right back into Indiana and take one, and then this thing gets interesting again. I don't know if Wall has it in him or not. He certainly has shown a poor mental game the last couple nights, but he's also a really good player who might figure it out in time.
But here is what you truly fail to understand in all of this. You have not been proven correct in anything yet. Not a single thing. Your theory that the only way Miami gets a challenge is if the Pacers play well again is still just an unproven theory that I disagree with, as much as you think you've been verified somehow. Your theory that the Pacers front court is better solely because, despite putting up slightly worse numbers, they are up 3-1, is based on absolute zero logic. My counter to that would be that the reason the Pacers are up 3-1, from the perspective of what THEY have done well, is almost solely the difference between Paul George and Trevor Ariza over the past couple games, which if you remember, I noted was a significant difference going into this series.
You can cry online and call me an idiot all you want, but I will not admit to a damn thing that hasn't happened. If the Pacers win this series and then go give Miami a legitimate scare, I will come back here and give you the E-gratification you so desperately desire. Again, the only one missing around here when it's convenient has been you. But if you're looking for someone to buy into your warped idea that the Wizards giving away two games they should have won means that the Pacers are the only match up that can test the Heat, you better find an even bigger idiot than me.
I also find it very amusing that you think my being a fan has blinded me in any way, considering I am always the pessimistic naysayer when it comes to the Wizards, and have been proven wrong about how good (or lack thereof) I thought they'd be, not the other way around.
oh brother...once again...false. Why don't you go back a few pages buddy...i was here on may 7th and posted about the alleged rumor which has become unsubstantiated. Why is it that you have such problems making things up? Yeah I was concerned..what's your point? Ill sit here and wait patiently when the Pacers win this series and you can again tell me why the wizards are a better team than the pacers and you can look like an idiot again. I can hardly contain my excitement for that moment.
oh brother...once again...false. Why don't you go back a few pages buddy...i was here on may 7th and posted about the alleged rumor which has become unsubstantiated. Why is it that you have such problems making things up? Yeah I was concerned..what's your point? Ill sit here and wait patiently when the Pacers win this series and you can again tell me why the wizards are a better team than the pacers and you can look like an idiot again. I can hardly contain my excitement for that moment.
Dude, you just CAN'T possibly be this thick. You were back here May 7th to make a comment about why Paul George can't keep his dick in his pants, or something along those lines. You literally did not write a single word about the game or the fact that the Pacers were down, but rather touched on what could be used as an excuse for why they were. Real firm stance there...
If, somehow, the Wizards came back and won this series, my guess is that you would never be seen here again. I came here after Game 1. But I also came back after Game 2, a game the Wizards outplayed the Pacers and lost, Game 3, a game where the Wizards managed to get outplayed by a team who was horrible that night, and Game 4, which was single-handedly one of the biggest gifts of this entire postseason. Yet I have no doubt that you'll only show up if the Pacers win the series and address no individual points, but rather stroke yourself to how you were right that the Pacers would win the series, and in your warped head, think that that actually verified any of your other opinions in this thread.
Man, some people really just don't get it.
nuts4xu
05-12-2014, 01:27 PM
PMI vs XVille =
http://www.goodtimecharlieblog.com/wp-content/uploads/image-import/_lZoQPvGfdG8/Sr3TBwGmTFI/AAAAAAAABmY/sj2zG57UPnw/s400/MonkeyHumpingFootball.JPG
XUFan09
05-12-2014, 01:33 PM
shoulda coulda woulda if,and, but. The results matter and is the only rational way to make an argument stick; whether you choose to ignore them or not, is an entirely different situation and is your decision.
Actually, it's illogical. It's called "affirming the consequent," a formal fallacy. Now, science is based off repeatedly committing this fallacy, but science relies on overwhelming evidence for its conclusions, because in that case, the probability is very low that the conclusions aren't true. In the world of basketball, the Heat sweeping the Bobcats and winning three of the games by double-digits in the process? That's strong evidence that they are better than Charlotte (though it's not needed). The evidence from this Pacers-Wizards series is not nearly as strong, as the Pacers are lucky it's not 2-2 right now, and it could have easily been 1-3. To conclusively say that the Pacers are better, due to what has happened, is dubious. I think they are better, but I'm not going to lean on the incomplete series results for that opinion. I'm far from ignoring the evidence. As a Pacers fan, I feel very lucky looking at the evidence, which is more than just the series record.
Xville
05-12-2014, 02:14 PM
Dude, you just CAN'T possibly be this thick. You were back here May 7th to make a comment about why Paul George can't keep his dick in his pants, or something along those lines. You literally did not write a single word about the game or the fact that the Pacers were down, but rather touched on what could be used as an excuse for why they were. Real firm stance there...
If, somehow, the Wizards came back and won this series, my guess is that you would never be seen here again. I came here after Game 1. But I also came back after Game 2, a game the Wizards outplayed the Pacers and lost, Game 3, a game where the Wizards managed to get outplayed by a team who was horrible that night, and Game 4, which was single-handedly one of the biggest gifts of this entire postseason. Yet I have no doubt that you'll only show up if the Pacers win the series and address no individual points, but rather stroke yourself to how you were right that the Pacers would win the series, and in your warped head, think that that actually verified any of your other opinions in this thread.
Man, some people really just don't get it.
huh? what is your point? you said i was not here after the pacers lost, i gave you fact that i was. Now you have to use semantics as to why that just wasn't good enough for you. its funny that when you get caught writing false things, you have to resort to something else instead of saying oh you are right my mistake. I wasn't using that rumor as any kind of excuse, it was just something i saw that was interesting, and wondered if it were true. As far as the game itself...i don't need to rehash and give excuses as to why a team loses like you do. The scoreboard says why...they scored less than the other team...the rest of it is just bs.
When the pacers win the series, that does verify my opinions. Your opinion is still that the wizards are a better team..you will be proven wrong when they lose the series. You still can't admit that the pacers beat the Wizards because they did...you have to use excuses. You are probably also the kind of person that blames everyone else for any problems that you may come upon.
Xville
05-12-2014, 02:24 PM
Actually, it's illogical. It's called "affirming the consequent," a formal fallacy. Now, science is based off repeatedly committing this fallacy, but science relies on overwhelming evidence for its conclusions, because in that case, the probability is very low that the conclusions aren't true. In the world of basketball, the Heat sweeping the Bobcats and winning three of the games by double-digits in the process? That's strong evidence that they are better than Charlotte (though it's not needed). The evidence from this Pacers-Wizards series is not nearly as strong, as the Pacers are lucky it's not 2-2 right now, and it could have easily been 1-3. To conclusively say that the Pacers are better, due to what has happened, is dubious. I think they are better, but I'm not going to lean on the incomplete series results for that opinion. I'm far from ignoring the evidence. As a Pacers fan, I feel very lucky looking at the evidence, which is more than just the series record.
what? affirming the consequent? really? are you just trying to make everyone think you are smart? I know the fallacy and sorry but this isn't a science experiment, it is sports. When one team beats another in a best of seven series, that means the team is better. That fallacy might apply in a one game series since anything can happen in one game...bad bounce here, missed call here. However, in a seven game series that is enough to determine the rational outcome that the team that won the series, is the better team. So when the series is wrapped up, ill believe the pacers are better, whether you choose to believe that mounting evidence is your perogative.
paulxu
05-12-2014, 02:46 PM
I can predict with absolute certainty (that's 100%) that one of two things will happen.
1. Pacers win series = unhappy Wizards' fans (they didn't play to their potential)
2. Wizards win series = unhappy Pacers' fans (they didn't play to their potential)
Will re-visit this prediction in a few days.
XUFan09
05-12-2014, 03:06 PM
what? affirming the consequent? really? are you just trying to make everyone think you are smart? I know the fallacy and sorry but this isn't a science experiment, it is sports. When one team beats another in a best of seven series, that means the team is better. That fallacy might apply in a one game series since anything can happen in one game...bad bounce here, missed call here. However, in a seven game series that is enough to determine the rational outcome that the team that won the series, is the better team. So when the series is wrapped up, ill believe the pacers are better, whether you choose to believe that mounting evidence is your perogative.
No, I don't really care what a bunch of anonymous Internet people think. You stated something that was absolutely incorrect, and I pointed out why it was incorrect. And the analysis of basketball, though different from scientific study (hence my segue, "In the world of basketball"), does involve some of the same ways of thinking. It's a game judged on probabilities, particularly with shooting but not exclusive to that. Results are judged but so are the processes that led to those results.
As for the bolded part, this just isn't necessarily true in sports. It's pretty generally regarded that the NBA playoffs are among the least likely of any playoffs to have upsets, but upsets are still possible here, especially after the first round. A team can be better/luckier for a series but not be the better team overall. It happens all the time. That's not excuse for fans of upsetted teams to pull a Matt Leinart (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7jy9pKvaViI), though, as it's about being better when it counts (which is why I think a champion, short of cheating, is always deserving).
drudy23
05-12-2014, 03:09 PM
No, I don't really care what a bunch of anonymous Internet people think. You stated something that was absolutely incorrect, and I pointed out why it was incorrect. And the analysis of basketball, though different from scientific study (hence my segue, "In the world of basketball"), does involve some of the same ways of thinking. It's a game judged on probabilities, particularly with shooting but not exclusive to that. Results are judged but so are the processes that led to those results.
As for the bolded part, this just isn't necessarily true in sports. It's pretty generally regarded that the NBA playoffs are among the least likely of any playoffs to have upsets, but upsets are still possible here, especially after the first round. A team can be better/luckier for a series but not be the better team overall. It happens all the time. That's not excuse for fans of upsetted teams to pull a Matt Leinart (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7jy9pKvaViI), though, as it's about being better when it counts (which is why I think a champion, short of cheating, is always deserving).
So, a 7 game series doesn't matter...does record matter? Does number of all-stars matter? Does members of All-NBA teams matter? Does previous experience matter?
It seems nothing of concrete values matters when it is conflict with your opinion. You're an idiot.
Xville
05-12-2014, 03:14 PM
A team can be better/luckier for a series but not be the better team overall. It happens all the time.
you have got to be kidding me? that may be the most asinine thing i have ever seen written. :eek:
huh? what is your point? you said i was not here after the pacers lost, i gave you fact that i was. Now you have to use semantics as to why that just wasn't good enough for you. its funny that when you get caught writing false things, you have to resort to something else instead of saying oh you are right my mistake. I wasn't using that rumor as any kind of excuse, it was just something i saw that was interesting, and wondered if it were true. As far as the game itself...i don't need to rehash and give excuses as to why a team loses like you do. The scoreboard says why...they scored less than the other team...the rest of it is just bs.
When the pacers win the series, that does verify my opinions. Your opinion is still that the wizards are a better team..you will be proven wrong when they lose the series. You still can't admit that the pacers beat the Wizards because they did...you have to use excuses. You are probably also the kind of person that blames everyone else for any problems that you may come upon.
You STILL don't get my point? My point is you're a coward. You really don't think I went back and checked before posting that? Your absence was clearly in reference to your absence in this very discussion. The tone of my argument has never changed. The tone of your argument is based solely on the success, or lack thereof, of Indiana. You are the epitome of the convenient shit talker, that's my point.
And you are basically suggesting that luck can't be a factor in sports, which is another one of my big pet peeves. You are impossible to have an intelligent debate with, which I started off trying to have with you, because you cannot see past what's right in front of your face. In your simpleton brain, Pacers winning by 1 means they're better than Washington, while Washington winning by 1 means Indiana's worse. Nobody's arguing how the games are decided, genius, but that doesn't mean those of us with a little more intellect can't discuss other factors outside of the final score. Paul George was outstanding last night, playing the best game he's played in a very long time. He deserves credit for that. In your simpleton brain, that somehow computes to the Pacers front court being better than the Wizards'. I'm starting to think you might have a mild case of Asberger's. Have you been tested?
XUFan09
05-12-2014, 05:05 PM
So, a 7 game series doesn't matter...does record matter? Does number of all-stars matter? Does members of All-NBA teams matter? Does previous experience matter?
It seems nothing of concrete values matters when it is conflict with your opinion. You're an idiot.
I'm not saying it doesn't matter. I'm saying it's not necessarily conclusive. There are so many factors involved. Now, the winner of a series earned their right to go to the next round or to be called champions, but that's different from the discussion of who is actually better. Usually, the better team does win, especially in the NBA playoffs (as compared to other playoffs with 7-game series), but that just doesn't always happen, even when we try to average out the various statistical outliers of the sport over a seven-game stretch.
Also, since this involves the Pacers, let's talk about those other things that apparently have concrete value:
Record - Which Pacers' record do you want? Their overall record that netted them the 1 seed, even though it was heavily bolstered by their great early season play? Their record after the All-Star break, which wasn't very good? Their record in April, which sucked? All these records say something different about Indiana, and it is also highly debatable how much any one of these records actually say about them. Not quite as sturdy of a statistic as the label "concrete value" would suggest.
All-Stars - Hibbert is finally starting to play something like the player who earned an All-Star spot earlier this season. He's done it for three games in a row now, which suggests that it's more than just a fluke, but I would hardly be surprised if he regressed back to mediocre or crappy play in the next game. But technically, he's an All-Star, so apparently we should be able to assign some objective value to the Pacers because of that!
All-NBA Members - Paul George is the only one in this category, and in Game 4 he showed why he was selected last spring. However, did he look like an All-NBA player over the course of any playoff game before that? Not really.
I never said nothing of "concrete" value matters. Unlike you, though, I'm not going to take that information and run with it. You try to take the complexity of basketball and reduce it down to something simplistic, and then you call someone an idiot who sees the nuances in the game and refuses to buy into your simplistic approach.
XUFan09
05-12-2014, 05:13 PM
A team can be better/luckier for a series but not be the better team overall. It happens all the time.
you have got to be kidding me? that may be the most asinine thing i have ever seen written. :eek:
Okay, so for you, apparently there are no upsets in sports that employ multi-game series for their playoffs. You acknowledged the range of possible occurences that can happen in single games, which is true, but contend that seven games is enough to nullify that unpredictability completely (at least in the NBA; maybe in your eyes, other leagues don't have that same privilege). I like multi-game series as a means of reducing the unpredictability, as it gives the better team an adequate chance to win overall. However, it doesn't completely eliminate that unpredictability, as you seem to believe. It would just be logistically impossible to extend playoff series to a point where the less probable of two outcomes is virtually eliminated.
drudy23
05-12-2014, 07:41 PM
I'm not saying it doesn't matter. I'm saying it's not necessarily conclusive. There are so many factors involved. Now, the winner of a series earned their right to go to the next round or to be called champions, but that's different from the discussion of who is actually better. Usually, the better team does win, especially in the NBA playoffs (as compared to other playoffs with 7-game series), but that just doesn't always happen, even when we try to average out the various statistical outliers of the sport over a seven-game stretch.
Also, since this involves the Pacers, let's talk about those other things that apparently have concrete value:
Record - Which Pacers' record do you want? Their overall record that netted them the 1 seed, even though it was heavily bolstered by their great early season play? Their record after the All-Star break, which wasn't very good? Their record in April, which sucked? All these records say something different about Indiana, and it is also highly debatable how much any one of these records actually say about them. Not quite as sturdy of a statistic as the label "concrete value" would suggest.
All-Stars - Hibbert is finally starting to play something like the player who earned an All-Star spot earlier this season. He's done it for three games in a row now, which suggests that it's more than just a fluke, but I would hardly be surprised if he regressed back to mediocre or crappy play in the next game. But technically, he's an All-Star, so apparently we should be able to assign some objective value to the Pacers because of that!
All-NBA Members - Paul George is the only one in this category, and in Game 4 he showed why he was selected last spring. However, did he look like an All-NBA player over the course of any playoff game before that? Not really.
I never said nothing of "concrete" value matters. Unlike you, though, I'm not going to take that information and run with it. You try to take the complexity of basketball and reduce it down to something simplistic, and then you call someone an idiot who sees the nuances in the game and refuses to buy into your simplistic approach.
1) Record - what record do I want? There's only one.
2) Hibbert is an All-Star, DWest is a former All-Star, Paul George is an All-Star, likely others I'm missing - better talent equals better team, that's the whole point - not rocket science.
3) You don't get selected as all-NBA by getting your name drawn out of a hat. Best of the best - none of those on the Wiz
All of the above are FACTS - indisputable. Not only are they FACTS, they are slap-you-in-the-face evidence of contributing factors of the Pacers being a better team. Let's not even throw in head-to-head record or the fact that they have won 3 out of 4 in the past week and a half. It's a slam dunk. There is very little EVIDENCE of the Wizards being better. If you were John Wooden, your argument may hold some weight, but even then, John Wooden would concede.
But not you...you must be Naismith himself. Holy shit, we're in the presence of basketball deity. That's the only logical explanation of your purely speculative and irrational ramblings.
1) Record - what record do I want? There's only one.
2) Hibbert is an All-Star, DWest is a former All-Star, Paul George is an All-Star, likely others I'm missing - better talent equals better team, that's the whole point - not rocket science.
3) You don't get selected as all-NBA by getting your name drawn out of a hat. Best of the best - none of those on the Wiz
All of the above are FACTS - indisputable. Not only are they FACTS, they are slap-you-in-the-face evidence of contributing factors of the Pacers being a better team. Let's not even throw in head-to-head record or the fact that they have won 3 out of 4 in the past week and a half. It's a slam dunk. There is very little EVIDENCE of the Wizards being better. If you were John Wooden, your argument may hold some weight, but even then, John Wooden would concede.
But not you...you must be Naismith himself. Holy shit, we're in the presence of basketball deity. That's the only logical explanation of your purely speculative and irrational ramblings.
The Wizards are the better team in my opinion. They know how to play together and they do it consistently. The Pacers have the better record and much better players, but they can't share and have grown tired of playing with each other. They might win this series if they can keep Hibbert mentally stable. Without him playing well they are dead in the water. The reason the Pacers are up is that the power in their lineup is a great matchup to the run and gun style of the Wizards. If the Wizards can speed the pace of the game up they could be able to come back and win the series.
XUFan09
05-12-2014, 10:17 PM
1) Record - what record do I want? There's only one.
2) Hibbert is an All-Star, DWest is a former All-Star, Paul George is an All-Star, likely others I'm missing - better talent equals better team, that's the whole point - not rocket science.
3) You don't get selected as all-NBA by getting your name drawn out of a hat. Best of the best - none of those on the Wiz
All of the above are FACTS - indisputable. Not only are they FACTS, they are slap-you-in-the-face evidence of contributing factors of the Pacers being a better team. Let's not even throw in head-to-head record or the fact that they have won 3 out of 4 in the past week and a half. It's a slam dunk. There is very little EVIDENCE of the Wizards being better. If you were John Wooden, your argument may hold some weight, but even then, John Wooden would concede.
But not you...you must be Naismith himself. Holy shit, we're in the presence of basketball deity. That's the only logical explanation of your purely speculative and irrational ramblings.
1) So you only want the overall record, even though the splits show how Indiana got there? Heck, if we just look at overall record, then Indiana is on the same level as Miami. Okay, awesome! I would love that if it were true.
2) Whatever labels they have does not necessarily indicate how they have been playing lately. Talent is important, but it doesn't automatically equal production. And I'm talking about more than just a few games.
3) I never diminished Paul George's All-NBA selection. But, last night was the first time in awhile he had shown over the course of a game why he received that honor. Once again, the production hasn't been there, even if the talent has.
All that you listed are facts, but they are facts taken out of context. If with consistency the Pacers had been playing like their record, if the players mentioned had been playing like All-Stars and former All-Stars (actually West is one of the few players that has been consistent), and if Paul George had been playing like an All-NBA player, then the Pacers would clearly be the better team, because they would be back to mid-season form. Mid-season Pacers would destroy the Wizards (as they did in the second half of Game 3). However, their production hasn't matched what their labels would indicate, at least not with consistency. I wish it did, but it just hasn't for awhile now.
And seeing the nuances in the game is hardly special, despite your sarcastic reply. It's actually fairly normal for engaged fans, but you stubbornly stick to such a reductive view of the game, it's mind-boggling.
1) Record - what record do I want? There's only one.
2) Hibbert is an All-Star, DWest is a former All-Star, Paul George is an All-Star, likely others I'm missing - better talent equals better team, that's the whole point - not rocket science.
3) You don't get selected as all-NBA by getting your name drawn out of a hat. Best of the best - none of those on the Wiz
All of the above are FACTS - indisputable. Not only are they FACTS, they are slap-you-in-the-face evidence of contributing factors of the Pacers being a better team. Let's not even throw in head-to-head record or the fact that they have won 3 out of 4 in the past week and a half. It's a slam dunk. There is very little EVIDENCE of the Wizards being better. If you were John Wooden, your argument may hold some weight, but even then, John Wooden would concede.
But not you...you must be Naismith himself. Holy shit, we're in the presence of basketball deity. That's the only logical explanation of your purely speculative and irrational ramblings.
1.) Very much a simpleton view. Put it this way, Vegas handicappers know there is more than one record of importance when it comes to gaging how good a team CURRENTLY is.
2.) This may be your silliest argument yet. All Star games? You do realize this is just the game the fans vote players into right? Are you going to tell me with a straight face that Roy Hibbert was a deserving All Star this year? David West was an All Star years ago, and nobody in their right mind would say he's still at that level. Nene has been a well documented All Star snub multiple years in his career, because of the teams he's played on. John Wall was an All Star and has been the Wizard's main issue the last few games. You seriously lose whatever grain of credibility you were holding onto with this one. Hell, if you want to play this game, why don't we throw future All Stars into the mix too! Bradley Beal will surely certainly be there soon enough. This argument is a total FAIL, and I'm guaranteeing that you can't even see why.
3.) Fair enough. The Pacers have an awesome player, even though he was slumping for awhile until the last couple games. I don't see where anyone has claimed otherwise. Do you want me to give you some examples of teams without an All NBA player who have beaten teams with one? Because there are plenty.
I'm very, very confident that you don't watch the actual games. You have not once cited anything that has occurred between the two teams on the court, analyzed any match ups, etc. I'm willing to bet that if you attempted to give a brief summary of who the Wizards are as a team, what they do well and don't, etc., without looking it up, you would have absolutely no clue where to start. It really isn't that hard to spot when someone is bullshitting. I have never once faulted anyone in this thread for thinking the Pacers are a better team than the Wizards. Of course that argument could be made, even if I don't agree that they are right now. But between you and XVille, there has been a pathetic failure to give any substantial reasons WHY they are better. I'd love for this to have been a productive discussion, where people made counter points that made me think, "Hmm, maybe I missed something there." But you guys have failed to deliver. If the Wizards get blown out tomorrow and the Pacers go on and challenge the Heat legitimately, I will be the first to come on here and admit that they did something I did not think they could do. If somehow the Wizards come back, I'll bet you clowns will have your faces posted on milk cartons.
drudy23
05-13-2014, 06:36 AM
1.) Very much a simpleton view. Put it this way, Vegas handicappers know there is more than one record of importance when it comes to gaging how good a team CURRENTLY is.
2.) This may be your silliest argument yet. All Star games? You do realize this is just the game the fans vote players into right? Are you going to tell me with a straight face that Roy Hibbert was a deserving All Star this year? David West was an All Star years ago, and nobody in their right mind would say he's still at that level. Nene has been a well documented All Star snub multiple years in his career, because of the teams he's played on. John Wall was an All Star and has been the Wizard's main issue the last few games. You seriously lose whatever grain of credibility you were holding onto with this one. Hell, if you want to play this game, why don't we throw future All Stars into the mix too! Bradley Beal will surely certainly be there soon enough. This argument is a total FAIL, and I'm guaranteeing that you can't even see why.
3.) Fair enough. The Pacers have an awesome player, even though he was slumping for awhile until the last couple games. I don't see where anyone has claimed otherwise. Do you want me to give you some examples of teams without an All NBA player who have beaten teams with one? Because there are plenty.
I'm very, very confident that you don't watch the actual games. You have not once cited anything that has occurred between the two teams on the court, analyzed any match ups, etc. I'm willing to bet that if you attempted to give a brief summary of who the Wizards are as a team, what they do well and don't, etc., without looking it up, you would have absolutely no clue where to start. It really isn't that hard to spot when someone is bullshitting. I have never once faulted anyone in this thread for thinking the Pacers are a better team than the Wizards. Of course that argument could be made, even if I don't agree that they are right now. But between you and XVille, there has been a pathetic failure to give any substantial reasons WHY they are better. I'd love for this to have been a productive discussion, where people made counter points that made me think, "Hmm, maybe I missed something there." But you guys have failed to deliver. If the Wizards get blown out tomorrow and the Pacers go on and challenge the Heat legitimately, I will be the first to come on here and admit that they did something I did not think they could do. If somehow the Wizards come back, I'll bet you clowns will have your faces posted on milk cartons.
1) OK - current - 3 of the last 4 head-to-head - after tonight, 4 out of 5 in the most important games of the year. That apparently means nothing. Guess that's not current enough either. Does it matter that John Wall or Bradley Beal had some type of advantage if at the end of the night they lose? Oh, they lost, but man, Beal and Wall sure do have matchup advantages.....who cares?
2) All-Stars - fans vote for starters - players vote for subs - Hibbard and DWest were voted by their peers - peers that know who can play - apparently your opinion means more than LeBraon James - again, better players are All-Stars, teams with better players win more - that's the whole point of the league.
3) Has nothing to do with one guy - it's a TEAM game, and the Pacers are a better team than the Wizards. Individual talent collectively makes up a team. Talent wins. There's a reason the playoffs are based off of records and not match ups on opinions. Why play the game if everything is about your opinions on match ups?
I watch plenty of games. It's not worth my time to type about match ups for two teams that don't deserve to be compared. Heat vs. Spurs - different story. OK, we've failed to deliver - whatever. But even after the Pacers win 4-1, you will still think they're the better squad...there are plenty of reasons why they are better, and it shows.
You have the delusion of a Dayton fan....go visit their board, you'll fit right in.
Xville
05-13-2014, 07:31 AM
the really sad part in all of this is that when the pacers win, pmi and xufan will still think the wizards are the better team...it was just luck in four of the games as to why the pacers won. In their minds, a seven game series still does not conclusively prove that one team is better than the other. they shouldn't even play the games anymore because what really matters are people's opinions of who is better. Instead of playing the games, there can just be debates between non-athletes representing the teams, and they can analyze the two teams, and whoever does it the best wins.
I'm a st. louis cardinals fan, so I guess I can just say they were the better team last year than the red sox who won the championship because it was just luck that the red sox won a 7 game series...oh man i feel so much better knowing that.
the really sad part in all of this is that when the pacers win, pmi and xufan will still think the wizards are the better team...it was just luck in four of the games as to why the pacers won. In their minds, a seven game series still does not conclusively prove that one team is better than the other. they shouldn't even play the games anymore because what really matters are people's opinions of who is better. Instead of playing the games, there can just be debates between non-athletes representing the teams, and they can analyze the two teams, and whoever does it the best wins.
I'm a st. louis cardinals fan, so I guess I can just say they were the better team last year than the red sox who won the championship because it was just luck that the red sox won a 7 game series...oh man i feel so much better knowing that.
I haven't read the entire conversation, but I'm pretty sure neither one is saying that the Wizards shouldn't have to play the games. They are the better team, the Pacers have gotten a bit lucky and are benefiting from a good match up for them. The best teams can adjust and beat anyone, neither of these teams are that. I fully expect whoever wins the series to be slaughtered in the next round.
nuts4xu
05-13-2014, 08:49 AM
If you win a 7 game series, you are a better team. Period.
Pacers played like absolute crap in April, but what they accomplished early in the season allowed them to earn the number 1 seed. It is a complete body of work, not just a segment of a few weeks, that earn you the number one seed.
You may not have been a better team for the entire season, for the previous round of the playoffs, or the second half of the year....but none of that means anything with the way the NBA sorts out the best teams. You can beat a team once and have it be a fluke, maybe even twice. I don't subscribe to the theory that you fluke your way through 4 wins in 7 games. The team that won 4 games had to be better than the other team on 4 different nights, not just one.
An argument can be made on paper who is a better team, or why you think a team is better. But the NBA will settle who the best team is on the court, you know, in the actual games. Where one team has to put a ball through an orange hoop more than the others. Speculating and opinions are all fine and dandy, and you all can spend the next 12 pages debating a winless argument, but the Pacers and Wizards will tell you once and for all who is better....once this series is final.
The better team doesn't always win, but the current better team usually will outlast a team in a 7 game series. If not, they lose and were not the better team afterall.
1) OK - current - 3 of the last 4 head-to-head - after tonight, 4 out of 5 in the most important games of the year. That apparently means nothing. Guess that's not current enough either. Does it matter that John Wall or Bradley Beal had some type of advantage if at the end of the night they lose? Oh, they lost, but man, Beal and Wall sure do have matchup advantages.....who cares?
2) All-Stars - fans vote for starters - players vote for subs - Hibbard and DWest were voted by their peers - peers that know who can play - apparently your opinion means more than LeBraon James - again, better players are All-Stars, teams with better players win more - that's the whole point of the league.
3) Has nothing to do with one guy - it's a TEAM game, and the Pacers are a better team than the Wizards. Individual talent collectively makes up a team. Talent wins. There's a reason the playoffs are based off of records and not match ups on opinions. Why play the game if everything is about your opinions on match ups?
I watch plenty of games. It's not worth my time to type about match ups for two teams that don't deserve to be compared. Heat vs. Spurs - different story. OK, we've failed to deliver - whatever. But even after the Pacers win 4-1, you will still think they're the better squad...there are plenty of reasons why they are better, and it shows.
You have the delusion of a Dayton fan....go visit their board, you'll fit right in.
All you're saying, again, is that your view of things, as 09 said, is reductive.
1) We have been over this enough. I'm not sure where you think I have denied that the series is 3-1 Pacers, but you don't watch the games so I can't have an intelligent discussion as to what has happened, and you don't realize how close this series has been. My opinion is based on what I've been watching. The Pacers do not run any semblance of an offense most of the time, and have relied on the Wizards playing very poorly at the wrong times. It happens and I'm not making excuses for Washington in that regard. Like I've also said several times, our best player is showing his youth at the wrong times right now. So how I feel about what these two teams are does not change the reality of the situation they're in, and I never have once argued otherwise. Like I said, if the Pacers win the series, I will admit that I was incorrect in my series prediction, but I am entirely confident that I will be proven correct in the main argument that's been taking place, in that the Pacers are a bad match up against the Heat.
2.) You are making up your own facts again. Players do not vote for a single thing in regards to the All Star game. Coaches vote for reserves, and they get heavily criticized every year for making the wrong or lazy selections. The bottom line is, the All Star Game is entertainment and there is absolutely no objective way of selecting based on actual output by a player. Roy Hibbert averaged 11.2 points and 6.9 rebounds. He shot 45.8% as a true low post center. He disappeared in games throughout the entire season and never once showed any consistency over an extended period of time. Just because he's a popular NBA player does not mean he was a deserving All Star this year. He wasn't even close. Kobe Bryant was an All Star this year too, and he hardly played. And D West? He hasn't been to the All Star Game since 2009. By that logic, Gilbert Arenas is basically still an All Star. It's actually amazing that you would think this ridiculous All Star argument holds any weight in analyzing the match up between two teams in the playoffs, particularly when you're only using the information convenient to one side.
3.) The fact that it is a TEAM game plays exactly into my argument for why I think the Wizards are a better match up for Miami, even though they would also lose. Indiana lacks a point guard and has very little flow in its offense. Paul George was single-handedly the difference maker in the last game because he was making individual plays in an offense that relies on individuals to make plays. The Wizards got to where they are by playing team ball, running an offense through a floor general who has since disappeared, and seeing a new leading scorer pretty much every night as a result. The Wizards have a better formula for winning, but it still requires doing what you're supposed to do, and the bulk of the load is on Wall, who has really blown it.
Really, there are two ways of looking at things. There are those who choose to analyze the details and try to see things for what they are. Then there are those who simply look at the black and white results and care about nothing else. It's fine if you want to think that way, but I think it's a flawed way of thinking. It's like the people who say you can never blame refs for being a factor in a game, even though, especially in the NBA, officials routinely decide important possessions. The NBA, more than any other league, is star driven by nature and the league prefers to see certain players and teams succeed over others. But people who don't actually pay attention to anything other than the final score will laugh it off as excuse making, as if there wasn't a recent former ref who went to prison or a former commissioner who aggressively individualized this TEAM sport to an extent that has changed it forever. But I digress. I'm arguing with a guy who thinks every D1 point guard handles the ball like a Harlem Globetrotter. I guess we will see what the Wizards' young studs are made of tonight.
I haven't read the entire conversation, but I'm pretty sure neither one is saying that the Wizards shouldn't have to play the games. They are the better team, the Pacers have gotten a bit lucky and are benefiting from a good match up for them. The best teams can adjust and beat anyone, neither of these teams are that. I fully expect whoever wins the series to be slaughtered in the next round.
I agree. Things have gone Indiana's way overall in this series, and the Wizards deserve their blame for that, no excuses. But it's foolish to think Indiana has returned to full form, or that they've made great adjustments. They are still a very unorganized offense and the Wizards have gotten away from the style that gives them an advantage in this match up, due mostly to John Wall's mental, tentative, and sloppy play. That's the bottom line in this series right now. Randy Wittman deserves to be held responsible for this too. And yes, the Heat are going to cruise to the Finals.
If you win a 7 game series, you are a better team. Period.
Pacers played like absolute crap in April, but what they accomplished early in the season allowed them to earn the number 1 seed. It is a complete body of work, not just a segment of a few weeks, that earn you the number one seed.
You may not have been a better team for the entire season, for the previous round of the playoffs, or the second half of the year....but none of that means anything with the way the NBA sorts out the best teams. You can beat a team once and have it be a fluke, maybe even twice. I don't subscribe to the theory that you fluke your way through 4 wins in 7 games. The team that won 4 games had to be better than the other team on 4 different nights, not just one.
An argument can be made on paper who is a better team, or why you think a team is better. But the NBA will settle who the best team is on the court, you know, in the actual games. Where one team has to put a ball through an orange hoop more than the others. Speculating and opinions are all fine and dandy, and you all can spend the next 12 pages debating a winless argument, but the Pacers and Wizards will tell you once and for all who is better....once this series is final.
The better team doesn't always win, but the current better team usually will outlast a team in a 7 game series. If not, they lose and were not the better team afterall.
The flaw in that argument is that you don't have to fluke your way to 4 wins. Sometimes the better team loses, straight up. For example, Indiana is clearly a better team than Atlanta, but they could've easily lost for many reasons, such as Roy Hibbert being AWOL, Paul George impregnating a stripper, Paul George banging Roy Hibbert's fiancé, Paul George's house getting broken into, Paul George getting catfished, or several other distractions. My point the entire time, which is evident to anyone who watches the games, is that Indiana does not play well as a team as the Wizards have for some time now, until the last couple games, and that hasn't changed even in their last three wins. The Wizards have really fucked up, particularly Wall, and that could cost them the series. When I said the Wizards were the better team, they absolutely were playing like the better team. Period, end of discussion. Unfortunately, they have pulled a DC Sports disappearing act since then, and are now in a position of desperation.
I can point to plenty of examples in the NBA, NHL and MLB where the better team did not win the series. Now if you want to redefine it and say they were the better team during that series, fine, but then it's a completely different argument. It is downright illogical to say that the better team could lose one game, but not four out of seven. Of course they can. It's fucking pro sports.
XU 87
05-13-2014, 09:33 AM
Not to change the subject, but that LeBron James guy is pretty good. But I still think he's a little bit of a coward by manufacturing his lineup in Miami to win his championships.
drudy23
05-13-2014, 09:57 AM
OK, I'll play your game and give you my analysis:
1) John Wall - cares more about making the And-1 Mix Tape Tour play of the year than winning. He's a stud, no doubt, but there's a reason you rarely see him in the playoffs. Winning pedigree and attitude matters, and he doesn't have it. While he smokes the Pacers guards in terms of athleticism and shot making ability, he evens himself out by bone-head plays, lack of leadership, and carelessness. The Pacers guards are role players, they know this, and play it well. Wall has to be the man, and presses because of it.
2) Bradley Beal - stud. The show should run through him. Plays with killer instinct and is the future...however, playoff experience is not on his side. He'll have his time, but not now.
3) Roy Hibbert - not a question of CAN DO, but a question of WILL DO - Hibbert's choice. Has nothing to do with how well he's played before this. If he CHOOSES to play with aggression and energy, Wizards have no answer.
4) Nene and Gortat - Nene is an above average offensive big man, he's athletic, and he's strong. He's a decent adversary to DWest, but he's also a headcase. DWest has the poise and cold bloodedness down the stretch and has hit big shots many times....that's a HUGE separator in games that matter. Gortat is a role player, and will always be a role player...not a difference maker.
5) That leaves PG and Ariza - while Ariza is much better than people give him credit for, he's not PG. PG is a true difference maker every night, even if he's not scoring.
6) That leaves the peripheral guys like Lance, Turner, and Scola....who are much better roles players than Miller and Gooden
I don't need to write all fo this down to know the Pacers have the better squad. But there you have it....and guess what, now that I've written it down, I still think the Pacers have a better squad. And honestly, it's not that close.
nuts4xu
05-13-2014, 10:05 AM
My point the entire time, which is evident to anyone who watches the games, is that Indiana does not play well as a team as the Wizards have for some time now, until the last couple games, and that hasn't changed even in their last three wins.
Indiana played well as a team early in the season when they were running roughshod through the NBA. But no doubt, they have been a shell of that team the past few months. The Wizards have played great basketball for "some time now", during a period when the Pacers have sucked balls. So each team played well at certain times of the season....how do you decide what team is better right now in the playoffs? They play each other in a 7 game series.
The Pacers played so poorly and they were a shell of their early season team coming down the stretch. I thought sure the Pacers would have been exposed against the Hawks, but they survived that series. With the way the Wiz smoked the Bulls and blew out the Pacers in the first game of this series, I figured the Pacers would be exposed in this series. So far, this has not been the case. Hibbert has come alive, George has awaken, and DFW is DFW. The Wizards could come back and win this series, but I think the experience of the Pacers will allow them to finish off the series.
The Wizards are a good up and coming team, and the East should recognize how good this team will be with the young core they have. I respect the Bullets and would not be surprised to see them come off the mat and win the next 3 games. But if they don't, it will be tough to argue they were the better team.
bleedXblue
05-13-2014, 10:14 AM
This thread reminds me of that old Styx song. "too much time on my hands".
Geesh
XUFan09
05-13-2014, 10:47 AM
This thread reminds me of that old Styx song. "too much time on my hands".
Geesh
I've even grown tired of this thread.
I'm just happy that Indiana has the 3-1 lead. That's close to insurmountable in the NBA playoffs for the losing team. I'll still probably be disappointed in the end, because mid-season Pacers could have given the Heat a good series and even won. The starters then were playing like they did in the 2013 playoffs, just with a better bench to back them up. The team now is playing better, but it's still unlikely that they return to that level.
nuts4xu
05-13-2014, 10:58 AM
http://ultimatecheerleaders.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/SI-NBA-2013_Pacers.jpg
nuts4xu
05-13-2014, 10:58 AM
http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2012/0828/play_g_hibbert_fans_576.jpg
nuts4xu
05-13-2014, 11:00 AM
http://www.supplybikinis.com/images/supplybikinis/ns-Ed-Hardy-Swimwear-Sexy-Bikini-171-_-440.jpg
XUFan09
05-13-2014, 11:28 AM
Okay, that's better.
ballyhoohoo
05-13-2014, 11:33 AM
This thread reminds me of that old Styx song. "too much time on my hands".
Geesh
Looks like Nuts has something else on (in) his hand(a)
OK, I'll play your game and give you my analysis:
1) John Wall - cares more about making the And-1 Mix Tape Tour play of the year than winning. He's a stud, no doubt, but there's a reason you rarely see him in the playoffs. Winning pedigree and attitude matters, and he doesn't have it. While he smokes the Pacers guards in terms of athleticism and shot making ability, he evens himself out by bone-head plays, lack of leadership, and carelessness. The Pacers guards are role players, they know this, and play it well. Wall has to be the man, and presses because of it.
2) Bradley Beal - stud. The show should run through him. Plays with killer instinct and is the future...however, playoff experience is not on his side. He'll have his time, but not now.
3) Roy Hibbert - not a question of CAN DO, but a question of WILL DO - Hibbert's choice. Has nothing to do with how well he's played before this. If he CHOOSES to play with aggression and energy, Wizards have no answer.
4) Nene and Gortat - Nene is an above average offensive big man, he's athletic, and he's strong. He's a decent adversary to DWest, but he's also a headcase. DWest has the poise and cold bloodedness down the stretch and has hit big shots many times....that's a HUGE separator in games that matter. Gortat is a role player, and will always be a role player...not a difference maker.
5) That leaves PG and Ariza - while Ariza is much better than people give him credit for, he's not PG. PG is a true difference maker every night, even if he's not scoring.
6) That leaves the peripheral guys like Lance, Turner, and Scola....who are much better roles players than Miller and Gooden
I don't need to write all fo this down to know the Pacers have the better squad. But there you have it....and guess what, now that I've written it down, I still think the Pacers have a better squad. And honestly, it's not that close.
I'm glad you're at least giving it a shot at making some valid points right now, but there is plenty of perfect proof that you don't know the Wizards, and to a lesser extent, the Pacers AT ALL.
1.) There's a reason you rarely see Wall in the playoffs? Yea, because until very recently, he was the only player worth a damn who was on this team and not injured. He obviously needed time to develop into an NBA point guard, but he had a horrible cast and coach his first couple years in the league. Then he got hurt last year. Now, in his fourth year, they're a top 4 team in the East. The fact that you question his will to win is laughable. You know nothing about the guy. Hell, you even think he's got good shot-making ability, while that's by far his biggest and only glaring weakness as a player. Again, he's been playing like shit the last couple games, and I agree he's pressing, but you know zero about his attitude, clearly.
2.) Can't disagree that Brad is a stud without much experience. Only he and Magic Johnson have had more 25+ point playoff games under the age of 21. I'd say he's doing just fine in the present.
3.) This is a misconception. Roy wasn't just choosing to suck most of the season. He is limited in what he can do offensively for the most part, and it leads to him pressing and getting frustrated when his shot isn't falling. Defensively, he's a very capable rim protector, but his mental issues are not new. I used to play against Roy in elementary and middle school. I watch his whole career at Georgetown Prep and Georgetown. I watched this guy transform from a complete goofball who grew way too tall way too early to sustain even an inkling of athletic coordination, to a basketball player. I like the guy and have always rooted for him. But I know who he is too. Confidence has always been an issue for him in basketball and otherwise. A lack of care has not. He is not some unstoppable force that you think he is. He was getting swatted away like a fly by Nene in the first half last game, and then Paul George took over and John Wall imploded. He is playing much better than he was, and I did not think that was going to happen as I said, but it's not like he just woke up and decided he wanted to win after Game 1. He's always dealt with consistency issues, going back to the very beginning.
4.) As I said, Nene versus West is a pretty even match. But let's not pretend like West has been some clutch difference maker in this series. That's been Paul George and even Lance at times. West has played a good role but that match up has been pretty even the whole way, and I think both guys could play better. In fact, Nene came up in the clutch for three of the Wizards four first round wins, hitting huge shots at the big times. I just wish he could hit his damn free throws. Gortat is certainly a role player, but he's a legit starting center who is unfortunately missing way too many bunnies right now.
5.) I obviously agree with you on Ariza and George. Ariza is also excellent defensively and on the offensive glass when he isn't scoring, but nobody can shut down George completely.
6.) Lance is a starter, so I don't really consider him in the same discussion as the bench guys. Washington's bench is what kept them in the game in Game 4, and our best bench player has given us nothing. Evan Turner is HOT GARBAGE in playoff basketball. Talk about a guy who thinks the game is his own personal And 1 mix tape. All he knows how to do is take and miss contested shots. He sucks. Scola is really, really good at flopping and can hit an open jumper at times. The perfect nightmare took place on Sunday when Scola and Joey "Prime Time" Crawford took the same court. Oh well.
"Honestly, it's not that close." There you go and invalidate everything you worked so hard to compute in your write up. That's as rich as the "all point guard have amazing handles", or the "amount of NBA All Stars, past or present, is a good way to measure a playoff match up" gold mines.
http://www.supplybikinis.com/images/supplybikinis/ns-Ed-Hardy-Swimwear-Sexy-Bikini-171-_-440.jpg
I agree.
drudy23
05-13-2014, 12:17 PM
I'm glad you're at least giving it a shot at making some valid points right now, but there is plenty of perfect proof that you don't know the Wizards, and to a lesser extent, the Pacers AT ALL.
1.) There's a reason you rarely see Wall in the playoffs? Yea, because until very recently, he was the only player worth a damn who was on this team and not injured. He obviously needed time to develop into an NBA point guard, but he had a horrible cast and coach his first couple years in the league. Then he got hurt last year. Now, in his fourth year, they're a top 4 team in the East. The fact that you question his will to win is laughable. You know nothing about the guy. Hell, you even think he's got good shot-making ability, while that's by far his biggest and only glaring weakness as a player. Again, he's been playing like shit the last couple games, and I agree he's pressing, but you know zero about his attitude, clearly.
2.) Can't disagree that Brad is a stud without much experience. Only he and Magic Johnson have had more 25+ point playoff games under the age of 21. I'd say he's doing just fine in the present.
3.) This is a misconception. Roy wasn't just choosing to suck most of the season. He is limited in what he can do offensively for the most part, and it leads to him pressing and getting frustrated when his shot isn't falling. Defensively, he's a very capable rim protector, but his mental issues are not new. I used to play against Roy in elementary and middle school. I watch his whole career at Georgetown Prep and Georgetown. I watched this guy transform from a complete goofball who grew way too tall way too early to sustain even an inkling of athletic coordination, to a basketball player. I like the guy and have always rooted for him. But I know who he is too. Confidence has always been an issue for him in basketball and otherwise. A lack of care has not. He is not some unstoppable force that you think he is. He was getting swatted away like a fly by Nene in the first half last game, and then Paul George took over and John Wall imploded. He is playing much better than he was, and I did not think that was going to happen as I said, but it's not like he just woke up and decided he wanted to win after Game 1. He's always dealt with consistency issues, going back to the very beginning.
4.) As I said, Nene versus West is a pretty even match. But let's not pretend like West has been some clutch difference maker in this series. That's been Paul George and even Lance at times. West has played a good role but that match up has been pretty even the whole way, and I think both guys could play better. In fact, Nene came up in the clutch for three of the Wizards four first round wins, hitting huge shots at the big times. I just wish he could hit his damn free throws. Gortat is certainly a role player, but he's a legit starting center who is unfortunately missing way too many bunnies right now.
5.) I obviously agree with you on Ariza and George. Ariza is also excellent defensively and on the offensive glass when he isn't scoring, but nobody can shut down George completely.
6.) Lance is a starter, so I don't really consider him in the same discussion as the bench guys. Washington's bench is what kept them in the game in Game 4, and our best bench player has given us nothing. Evan Turner is HOT GARBAGE in playoff basketball. Talk about a guy who thinks the game is his own personal And 1 mix tape. All he knows how to do is take and miss contested shots. He sucks. Scola is really, really good at flopping and can hit an open jumper at times. The perfect nightmare took place on Sunday when Scola and Joey "Prime Time" Crawford took the same court. Oh well.
"Honestly, it's not that close." There you go and invalidate everything you worked so hard to compute in your write up. That's as rich as the "all point guard have amazing handles", or the "amount of NBA All Stars, past or present, is a good way to measure a playoff match up" gold mines.
.
I disagree...deal with it.
I disagree...deal with it.
Believe me, it's no skin off my ass. In fact, knowing that a few uninformed opinions differ from mine is something I welcome.
paulxu
05-13-2014, 12:29 PM
I'd suggest that you guys get a room. But you may need a suite.
Retire33
05-13-2014, 12:48 PM
[QUOTE=PMI;451305]
4.) As I said, Nene versus West is a pretty even match. But let's not pretend like West has been some clutch difference maker in this series. That's been Paul George and even Lance at times. West has played a good role but that match up has been pretty even the whole way, and I think both guys could play better.
[\QUOTE]
I guess you missed game 6 in Atlanta. DFW dominated in closing mins to keep season going.
I'll be in attendance tonight to send this TEAM to ECF for what we fans have waited for all year.
[QUOTE=PMI;451305]
4.) As I said, Nene versus West is a pretty even match. But let's not pretend like West has been some clutch difference maker in this series. That's been Paul George and even Lance at times. West has played a good role but that match up has been pretty even the whole way, and I think both guys could play better.
[\QUOTE]
I guess you missed game 6 in Atlanta. DFW dominated in closing mins to keep season going.
I'll be in attendance tonight to send this TEAM to ECF for what we fans have waited for all year.
"But let's not pretend like West has been some clutch difference maker in this series."
I love David West and I'm not knocking him at all, but he hasn't been the go-to guy or the guy to hit big shots down the stretch in the Wizards series. Nene and West could certainly both play better. They are two pretty evenly matched, high level NBA starting PFs.
XUFan09
05-13-2014, 02:42 PM
I'm confused...When did Hibbert suddenly become some unstoppable force when he wants to be? That is just downright false. "Good Hibbert" is a solid offensive option who sometimes can have a really good game but who also can have a pretty mediocre or poor game. His All-Star selection wasn't riding on his offense. He made the All-Star team because of fantastic defense complemented by respectable, not great, offense. Good Hibbert has been generally back for the last few games, but that Game 2 offensive performance was a very welcome anomaly. Scoring 8-12 points (high teens on a better day) while being the team's defensive anchor is much more his range of play.
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XUFan09
05-13-2014, 02:48 PM
[QUOTE=PMI;451305]
4.) As I said, Nene versus West is a pretty even match. But let's not pretend like West has been some clutch difference maker in this series. That's been Paul George and even Lance at times. West has played a good role but that match up has been pretty even the whole way, and I think both guys could play better.
[\QUOTE]
I guess you missed game 6 in Atlanta. DFW dominated in closing mins to keep season going.
I'll be in attendance tonight to send this TEAM to ECF for what we fans have waited for all year.
David West might have been the best player in that series, which saved the season but was a troubling indictment on his talented teammates. This series, he's been a decent contributor, but luckily, those teammates started to step up.
Sent from my DROID RAZR HD using Tapatalk
[QUOTE=Retire33;451315]
David West might have been the best player in that series, which saved the season but was a troubling indictment on his talented teammates. This series, he's been a decent contributor, but luckily, those teammates started to step up.
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I agree. My comment was in response to drudy's assertion that the difference between West and Nene in this series has been West's cold-blooded clutchness. Both West and Nene were very clutch for their teams in round 1, and were arguably each of their team's most valuable respective player. But that has not been the case in the PF match up in this series thus far. I don't think either of them has been nearly as effective as they are capable of playing, and there are probably several factors for why that is.
XUFan09
05-13-2014, 03:29 PM
[QUOTE=XUFan09;451331]
I agree. My comment was in response to drudy's assertion that the difference between West and Nene in this series has been West's cold-blooded clutchness. Both West and Nene were very clutch for their teams in round 1, and were arguably each of their team's most valuable respective player. But that has not been the case in the PF match up in this series thus far. I don't think either of them has been nearly as effective as they are capable of playing, and there are probably several factors for why that is.
Agreed, I'm just affirming your point to Retire33. The PF position has probably been the least significant position in this series, actually.
John Wall vs. George Hill
Bradley Beal vs. Lance Stephenson
Trevor Ariza vs. Paul George
Marcin Gortat vs. Roy Hibbert
All these match-ups have had more of an impact on the series, unless you want to count Luis Scola's LVP designation (Evan Turner is on a whole different plane of suck) or Indiana making Drew Gooden look like an All-Star in Game 1 or the second quarter of Game 4.
Xville
05-13-2014, 03:40 PM
I still assert that that Evan Turner pick up was the dumbest thing that the Pacers have done in quite a while. I won't say that that trade and getting rid of Granger was the only reason for the Pacers slide but I believe it was definitely a contributing factor. Not that Granger was an impact player, but he was a fan favorite and apparently a good leader in the locker room. I definitely think that trade screwed up the team chemistry for a while.
I still assert that that Evan Turner pick up was the dumbest thing that the Pacers have done in quite a while. I won't say that that trade and getting rid of Granger was the only reason for the Pacers slide but I believe it was definitely a contributing factor. Not that Granger was an impact player, but he was a fan favorite and apparently a good leader in the locker room. I definitely think that trade screwed up the team chemistry for a while.
Agreed. Even before you consider what it did to their team chemistry (which has already involved a locker room altercation), Evan Turner was the last type of player Indiana needed. A volume shooter who takes questionable shots, especially once he's sees one go in, and does little else, coming off the bench? Granger obviously isn't ever going to be what he was, but having him in the locker room sure outweighs Evan Turner pooping his pants for a handful of minutes every game. The frustrating thing is, players like Turner know they're capable of getting really hot every once in awhile and going off, making it even less likely that he decides to learn how to play the game properly at this level.
XUFan09
05-13-2014, 03:51 PM
I still assert that that Evan Turner pick up was the dumbest thing that the Pacers have done in quite a while. I won't say that that trade and getting rid of Granger was the only reason for the Pacers slide but I believe it was definitely a contributing factor. Not that Granger was an impact player, but he was a fan favorite and apparently a good leader in the locker room. I definitely think that trade screwed up the team chemistry for a while.
It's quite possible. Granger is basically doing nothing now for his new team, and I'm guessing that the expectation was that Turner would at least be able to contribute something off the bench. The problem is that he needs to have the ball in his hands in order to be effective, as he isn't going to stretch any defenses with his poor shooting and generally doesn't play well off the ball (plus his defense is subpar at best). He's not going to get that opportunity any time when Paul George or Lance Stephenson is on the court, and it's only a few minutes a game (if that) that they are both on the bench.
On a team where he's a primary playmaker, Turner might be decent, but that's not happening in Indiana.
drudy23
05-13-2014, 04:02 PM
[QUOTE=XUFan09;451331]
I agree. My comment was in response to drudy's assertion that the difference between West and Nene in this series has been West's cold-blooded clutchness. Both West and Nene were very clutch for their teams in round 1, and were arguably each of their team's most valuable respective player. But that has not been the case in the PF match up in this series thus far. I don't think either of them has been nearly as effective as they are capable of playing, and there are probably several factors for why that is.
And again, I never said "in this series"...you read what you want to read. I said he's a better overall player in spite of their similarities because of his propensity to hit clutch shots. Never once did I say or insinuate he's done that in this series. You make shit up.
[QUOTE=PMI;451341]
And again, I never said "in this series"...you read what you want to read. I said he's a better overall player in spite of their similarities because of his propensity to hit clutch shots. Never once did I say or insinuate he's done that in this series. You make shit up.
Uh what? I disagree with you that he's a better overall player, at this stage in their careers. I disagree with you that he is more clutch than Nene, quite frankly. Neither has been particularly clutch in THIS MATCH UP, which is what I said. I gave examples of where both have been clutch in these playoffs, so your point is rendered moot anyway. I would say you have some serious reading comprehension issues, but I know you don't read, and instead just assume what someone thinks before responding to it with a douchey remark. Worthless.
XUFan09
05-13-2014, 05:41 PM
1) Nene can be quite clutch too, similar to West.
2) Neither is even the first or second option in clutch situations, which are themselves only a small percentage of total possessions in a game, so it wouldn't make sense to consider this value seriously for a comparison between the two, even if #1 weren't true. Both are capable of clutch plays, but neither has a significant number of opportunities to display that usually.
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drudy23
05-13-2014, 05:58 PM
[QUOTE=drudy23;451362]
Uh what? I disagree with you that he's a better overall player, at this stage in their careers. I disagree with you that he is more clutch than Nene, quite frankly. Neither has been particularly clutch in THIS MATCH UP, which is what I said. I gave examples of where both have been clutch in these playoffs, so your point is rendered moot anyway. I would say you have some serious reading comprehension issues, but I know you don't read, and instead just assume what someone thinks before responding to it with a douchey remark. Worthless.
You win...I've had enough of you. I'm gonna go hang with my hat tilted in da club with the other creepy dads.
muskienick
05-13-2014, 06:09 PM
Believe me, it's no skin off my ass. In fact, knowing that a few uninformed opinions differ from mine is something I welcome.
I was sitting on the fence until the above posting. Now I'll fall on Drudy's side of the fence.
ArizonaXUGrad
05-13-2014, 06:49 PM
The games are close in this series but the score of the series isn't. If Indiana wins tonight, they deserve the series....period! From what I saw in this series, Indiana starters are a touch better but Washington's bench is a lot better. Indiana has had to play their starters a lot more to finish out games which could be tough for them if they move on to play the heat.
XUFan09
05-13-2014, 06:50 PM
I was sitting on the fence until the above posting. Now I'll fall on Drudy's side of the fence.
What exactly was compelling (anti-compelling?) about this post?
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ArizonaXUGrad
05-13-2014, 06:54 PM
Oops and that is 3 on Nene. For the next few minutes he will have to defend a bit different. Nobody ever fouls out in the pros.
Xville
05-13-2014, 07:41 PM
Gotta give it to the wiz so far tonight. Gortat is playing incredibly and the Pacers look awful . Gotta say pretty pathetic effort from the Pacers so far with a chance to end the series quickly and get some rest before the heat.
mistabeecee41
05-13-2014, 07:41 PM
Looks like this ones heading back to D.C.
Never would have thought D-West would be a part of a starting frontcourt where his team is being outrebounded 45-15.
Xville
05-13-2014, 07:55 PM
I think the pacers believed all they had to do was put on the uniform tonight and the wiz were going to roll over. Effort so far has been pathetic. The wizards have been playing well and gortat has absolutely dominated inside obviously.
XUFan09
05-13-2014, 09:12 PM
And with that game, in this series we now have seen all the manifestations of the Pacers from the regular season.
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muskienick
05-13-2014, 11:42 PM
What exactly was compelling (anti-compelling?) about this post?
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I would have thought that PMI's use of the word, 'uninformed,' might have given you a hint. Both people involved in that duel of wits had the same amount of information at hand. Neither was "uninformed." They had differing opinions. I don't have a problem with such a duel continuing even though there is little, if any, hope of either convincing the other "to come over to the dark side."
I would have thought that PMI's use of the word, 'uninformed,' might have given you a hint. Both people involved in that duel of wits had the same amount of information at hand. Neither was "uninformed." They had differing opinions. I don't have a problem with such a duel continuing even though there is little, if any, hope of either convincing the other "to come over to the dark side."
My use of the term was precisely accurate. It has been clear throughout this whole argument that drudy does not actually watch the games, and in particular isn't familiar with the Wizards as a team. This has nothing to do with his opinion of who's better between the two teams (an opinion that is fair if backed up with substance), but rather with his attempt at describing certain players or parts of the teams, and just downright showing his lack of familiarity with what we're discussing. I'm sure it's possible he's caught glimpses of this series, but it is very obvious to me, as someone who's routinely watched the Wizards, and seen a hell of a lot of the Pacers, that his opinion was backed up by things that simply and objectively are not true. If your opinion of who is correct in this argument is influenced by that particular comment, then your focus is in the completely wrong place.
As for the game, it was refreshing to see Wall and Gortat step up after some sub par performances. I'd love to see what we could look like if all five starters were clicking at the same time like they were in the Chicago series, but Wall and Gortat were more than enough to beat Indiana tonight, as they played uninspired and with zero sense of urgency once they got down. That's this Pacers team for you right now. When they are "good" they are still not that great, especially in trying to run an offense. When they're bad, they're really, really bad, and it affects their effort and hustle. The Wizards have had some bad games this series, including one horrendous one, but they never had such a heavy dose of quit in them like Indiana. It'll still be a tough series to tie up for sure. Paul George could go off again and the Pacers could pull one out. But if the Wizards don't let the pressure get to them and just play their game, the Pacers are in trouble still. 62-23 in rebounding, against David West and a guy who is apparently a dominant center. It's amazing that the Pacers still can't be trusted to give basic effort at this stage in the postseason. I would think that would factor into who the better team is, but what do I know?
XUFan09
05-14-2014, 12:21 AM
I would have thought that PMI's use of the word, 'uninformed,' might have given you a hint. Both people involved in that duel of wits had the same amount of information at hand. Neither was "uninformed." They had differing opinions. I don't have a problem with such a duel continuing even though there is little, if any, hope of either convincing the other "to come over to the dark side."
I thought that wouldn't be your reasoning, simply because I assumed you also saw Drudy's interaction with me, when he called me an idiot and labeled my posts "irrational ramblings." I'm by no means hurt by his being a jerk that can't see other viewpoints, but if we're talking about denigrating the opponent, he's far more guilty than PMI.
Sent from my DROID RAZR HD using Tapatalk
I thought that wouldn't be your reasoning, simply because I assumed you also saw Drudy's interaction with me, when he called me an idiot and labeled my posts "irrational ramblings." I'm by no means hurt by his being a jerk that can't see other viewpoints, but if we're talking about denigrating the opponent, he's far more guilty than PMI.
Sent from my DROID RAZR HD using Tapatalk
To be clear, while many of drudy's posts and attitude could reasonably be denigrated, that was not my intention in calling him uninformed. I only called him uninformed because he is uninformed. That's not a shot. Every time I have debates on this board that involve the Washington Wizards, there's at least one poster who exposes him/herself as uninformed. That's totally reasonable, as most people are not familiar with this team, until very recently perhaps. People jumped on me when I correctly stated that the team would be much better off without Jordan Crawford, which is understandable considering it's a Xavier board so we all want to see him do well, and hardly anyone has seen the Wizards in years until now. Drudy is not an asshole for being ignorant to what the team is.
drudy23
05-14-2014, 10:10 AM
Man, you really care about this.
bleedXblue
05-14-2014, 10:20 AM
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQDzEVE18MdMnAfae_6gyxOAZ5PcYxyB uMcyz1nSm5-B_4KROX7FQ
ArizonaXUGrad
05-14-2014, 10:33 AM
Basically from what I have seen, the Pacers could lose this series but if they show up and play like they can Washington shouldn't advance.
What the hell happened to the Clippers??? Good lord, Controversial call? BS, first time I have seen two wrongs make a right. Barnes fouled Jackson on the play, it was out on the Thunder, but they gave it to the Thunder and said it was "inconclusive". Absolutely crazy, I bet Rivers wishes they called it square there and gave Jackson two shots instead of Westbrook with three after the play.
Xville
05-14-2014, 11:22 AM
Basically from what I have seen, the Pacers could lose this series but if they show up and play like they can Washington shouldn't advance.
What the hell happened to the Clippers??? Good lord, Controversial call? BS, first time I have seen two wrongs make a right. Barnes fouled Jackson on the play, it was out on the Thunder, but they gave it to the Thunder and said it was "inconclusive". Absolutely crazy, I bet Rivers wishes they called it square there and gave Jackson two shots instead of Westbrook with three after the play.
agreed. If Indiana plays the way they are capable of playing, they should win the series. With that said though, this series is one of the weirdest i have seen in quite sometime. Two of the 5 games, one of the teams has absolutely not shown up. You would think that wouldn't happen at this stage in the playoffs. It is pretty mind-boggling. Though I guess we can't be too surprised with it being two teams from the east not named miami. It just again reaffirms the fact that the west is light years ahead of the east as a whole.
gladdenguy
05-14-2014, 11:31 AM
Basically from what I have seen, the Pacers could lose this series but if they show up and play like they can Washington shouldn't advance.
What the hell happened to the Clippers??? Good lord, Controversial call? BS, first time I have seen two wrongs make a right. Barnes fouled Jackson on the play, it was out on the Thunder, but they gave it to the Thunder and said it was "inconclusive". Absolutely crazy, I bet Rivers wishes they called it square there and gave Jackson two shots instead of Westbrook with three after the play.
Thank gosh they lost. I hate Doc Rivers as much as Magic Johnson and Michael Jordan. All 3 can eat a bag of D!cks.
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQDzEVE18MdMnAfae_6gyxOAZ5PcYxyB uMcyz1nSm5-B_4KROX7FQ
You know, nobody is forcing you to read this argument. There's a lot of other internet out there.
The difference between the Wizards blowout loss and the Pacers blowout loss was significant. In the Wizards', they just couldn't hit a shot, but remained fine on the defensive end and didn't let Indiana get into an offensive flow, which hey haven't done in a long time anyway. In the game last night, the Pacers proved once again that you can get them to quit in all facets of he game when you are clicking and things aren't going their way. I think that says a lot about them. They stood around and watched the Wiz grab offensive boards all second half in an elimination game. While Indiana has the best player who could go off and be good enough to take it himself, the Wizards are the better team overall and are the team playing without the immense pressure that the Pacers clearly have felt and have failed to handle well for awhile now. The best the Pacers have played as a team this series still hasn't been that good. I think it's wishful to think they will play some amazing game, thus if Washington can avoid a shooting slump and play the way they're capable of playing, they will beat the weaker minded Pacers, and get the honor of losing to the Heat in the conference finals.
Xville
05-14-2014, 11:57 AM
You know, nobody is forcing you to read this argument. There's a lot of other internet out there.
The difference between the Wizards blowout loss and the Pacers blowout loss was significant. In the Wizards', they just couldn't hit a shot, but remained fine on the defensive end and didn't let Indiana get into an offensive flow, which hey haven't done in a long time anyway. In the game last night, the Pacers proved once again that you can get them to quit in all facets of he game when you are clicking and things aren't going their way. I think that says a lot about them. They stood around and watched the Wiz grab offensive boards all second half in an elimination game. While Indiana has the best player who could go off and be good enough to take it himself, the Wizards are the better team overall and are the team playing without the immense pressure that the Pacers clearly have felt and have failed to handle well for awhile now. The best the Pacers have played as a team this series still hasn't been that good. I think it's wishful to think they will play some amazing game, thus if Washington can avoid a shooting slump and play the way they're capable of playing, they will beat the weaker minded Pacers, and get the honor of losing to the Heat in the conference finals.
oh brother.
Cheesehead
05-14-2014, 12:06 PM
Thank gosh they lost. I hate Doc Rivers as much as Magic Johnson and Michael Jordan. All 3 can eat a bag of D!cks.
By all accounts, Doc is a pretty good guy, hater.
oh brother.
Yea, good counter point. Never really thought of it that way...
Basically from what I have seen, the Pacers could lose this series but if they show up and play like they can Washington shouldn't advance.
I believe that if the Pacers play like they can, and so do the Wizards, it will be a really great game or two, and Paul George could be the difference. The problem is, the Pacers have not played like they can in about two months, so it's roughly the same as me saying, if I win the scratch off tonight, I'll be sitting court side tomorrow. This notion that because the Pacers are up 3-2, they have played well yet, is incorrect. I'm really starting to wonder how many posters here have watched every minute of every game, and not just highlights or spots. I get it, the Pacers are the 1 seed. They are a worse team than they were when they were playing their best, both due to an odd trade and many other factors. The Wizards are a much better ROSTER and team than they were most of the season. The regular season records are not a remotely close reflection of what each team is now.
Xville
05-14-2014, 12:55 PM
Yea, good counter point. Never really thought of it that way...
when the pacers win...in your opinion it is because the wizards didn't play the way they are capable of playing, and pacers still aren't good and it had zero to do with how the pacers actually forced the wizards into bad decision making and playing poorly.
When the wizards win...in your opinion it is because the wizards are just so much better. You give zero credit to the pacers every time they beat the wizards (well its just because george went off and it was a fluke, well its because Wall had an off game,well the wizards didn't shoot well etc etc etc.)
there really is no convincing you otherwise so all i can really do is :facepalm:
drudy23
05-14-2014, 12:57 PM
I believe that if the Pacers play like they can, and so do the Wizards, it will be a really great game or two, and Paul George could be the difference. The problem is, the Pacers have not played like they can in about two months, so it's roughly the same as me saying, if I win the scratch off tonight, I'll be sitting court side tomorrow. This notion that because the Pacers are up 3-2, they have played well yet, is incorrect. I'm really starting to wonder how many posters here have watched every minute of every game, and not just highlights or spots. I get it, the Pacers are the 1 seed. They are a worse team than they were when they were playing their best, both due to an odd trade and many other factors. The Wizards are a much better ROSTER and team than they were most of the season. The regular season records are not a remotely close reflection of what each team is now.
I'm guessing there are zero posters that have watched every minute of every game...yeah, we know, you have.
Why do you care so much about this? It's a message board that entertains us while we should be working. I banter with you so I don't have to look at spreadsheets...nothing more.
At the end of the day, if the Wizards advance...ok, whatever. But normally the people that honk their horn and puff their chest about how much they know are usually the ones that don't know too much. That much I'm sure of.
when the pacers win...in your opinion it is because the wizards didn't play the way they are capable of playing, and pacers still aren't good and it had zero to do with how the pacers actually forced the wizards into bad decision making and playing poorly.
When the wizards win...in your opinion it is because the wizards are just so much better. You give zero credit to the pacers every time they beat the wizards (well its just because george went off and it was a fluke, well its because Wall had an off game,well the wizards didn't shoot well etc etc etc.)
there really is no convincing you otherwise so all i can really do is :facepalm:
I know that my opinions and refusal to agree with you causes you a a great deal of anger, frustration, and general butthurtedness, and for that I truly feel for you. But this tired act of you exaggerating my views to the utmost extremes is simply not going to make your nonsense any less make believe than it is. I'm going to write another long post. I challenge you to actually read the whole thing. I think if you do, and you are a reasonable person, you will be enlightened. You may still disagree with my main theories, which you are entitled to, but you'll have a very hard time proving my reasoning for forming said theories incorrect.
And before I start, my mind is by no means unsusceptible to being changed. You're way, way off there. I actually change my opinions quite often based on new facts. In fact, as you might remember from about a million posts ago in this mess, since a couple months ago, I have completely changed my entire opinion on both of these teams, on what the Pacers' potential is anymore, on what the Wizards' ceiling as a team this year is, and so on. But I'm not going to change my mind based on lazy, baseless arguments, when what I've seen over the course of a large sample size has done nothing but verify what I've thought for some time now. I am genuinely frustrated watching this Pacers team, even though I am rooting for the Wizards, because at one point in time, I also thought they were the only chance at taking down the Heat. Now it's obvious that nobody is going to do that, but at the Pacer's peak, which I now believe was a tiny bit of fool's gold mixed in with some very good basketball, I thought they had a fighting chance. That was awhile ago now, and they are not anything like that team anymore.
There are a few things that , in general, have held true all series (of course there are certain plays, stretches that are exceptions, but broadly speaking):
* Indiana's effort, focus, and apparent care is mind-bogglingly inconsistent. I think you've even alluded to agreeing with this, and it partly plays into some other points.
* Indiana, while very good on defense when bought in, still does not have an organized or generally effective offense, and relies way too much on one guy (usually George) dominating the ball and settling for a far less than ideal shot, and they don't do a good job, generally, of offensive rebounding, which was apparently supposed to be a strength of theirs. In fact, the Pacers are second to last in the playoffs in their own offensive rebounding, while the Wizards are third in opponent's offensive rebounding, while playing two teams that were allegedly supposed to be great in that area. Simply put, this is a major advantage for Washington as a team in this match up. The Wizards have absolutely DOMINATED this series on the offensive glass which shows me two things: They are a better offensive rebounding team, and they give better, more consistent effort.
* The Wizards, while they don't have the best overall player in the series, have more players who are capable (read: reasonably likely) of going off for huge nights offensively. I'll give you Hibbert, who I admitted to you I was wrong about in terms of what he'd ever contribute in this series. That leaves four guys on Indiana who can go off versus five on Washington. Two guys on Indiana have really gone off in this series, while four have for the Wizards. The Wizards bench has also held the advantage over Indiana's without question. This backs up my theory that Washington is the better overall team, even though Indiana has the best player. Unfortunately for Indiana, while they have the best player, he has been amazingly inconsistent still (both in effort and production, disturbingly), which is something you really have to question in a guy who's supposed to be a superstar.
* The Pacers defense has absolutely given the Wizards difficulty, in stretches, and I would never argue otherwise. But the Wizards defense overall has been more effective, due to its impressiveness, as well as the Pacers' lack of offensive fluidity. When the Pacers' defense is at its best, they protect the rim and the paint and force Washington to rely on outside shots, and in one game, it really worked because the Wizards couldn't hit the ocean. But their defensive efforts are reliant on the game being stuck in the half court, and more importantly, inconsistent. The Wizards, even in getting blown out in Game 3, have for the most part never let down their defensive efforts. I think it says a lot about the two teams, their leadership, and their guts.
* John Wall is the Wizards' best player, and for the most part, they go as he goes. When he's on, the offense is beautiful thing to watch flow. He was horrendous until last night. Now I know that Indiana hasn't played its best either, but watching the first four games with our leader basically AWOL, I'd have thought the series would have looked a lot more lopsided than it did. I think the real Pacers fans who know this team (and I have many friends in this category who agree with me) were greatly concerned to see how the games were panning out, despite not having to deal with an even halfway decent John Wall for the vast majority of the minutes. That's the same reason I fear Paul George. He's the kind of player who can be unstoppable and win a game by himself when he's at his best, which he was in Game 4. And then there's Gortat, who was invisible the first four games as well after being outstanding all year. That's our starting 1 and 5 giving us nothing, while Hibbert turns it around for three games out of nowhere. From the other angle, George has also been inconsistent and neither West nor Stephenson have set the world on fire, but again, Indiana's inconsistency has become the RULE not the EXCEPTION for a long time now. Washington has a great recent track record of playing really well and really hard, while Indiana does not.
So here's where we get to where you're going nuts in the exaggerating to the extreme department. I never said that when the Wizards win, it's because they're so much better, while when the Pacers win, they deserve zero credit. You interpret that falsely in your own mind, presumably because I've gotten under your skin throughout these debates and you're thinking, "Fuck this PMI guy, he thinks he knows everything, I'm going to remain steadily his contrarian regardless of what I see (or don't see) if I bother watching the games." But here's how I see it. The results are what they are, and Indiana is up 3-2 any way you slice it, and yes, at the end of the series, that's all that will matter in terms of who gets the right to go lose to Miami. But Indiana is still not playing anywhere near as well as they once did, have a ton of pressure on them, and are offensively challenged to a downright concerning degree, while Washington is playing it's best team basketball of the year (despite not once having had more than a couple guys click on the same night) save one inexplicable shooting night, taking close to zero defensive possessions off, and playing pressure free. Those general observations, along with some of the other things I've mentioned, have led me to form an opinion which I would've thought was crazy a few months ago, which is that the Wizards are a better basketball team than the Pacers right now. You disagree for reasons you either refuse to explain with substantial detail, fail to comprehend, or simply have made up, and you're fully entitled to do so. The Pacers may still win, of course, and then you'll be back here puffing out your chest thinking you were a genius all along, but I seriously challenge you to counter the points I've made with facts that contradict them. Disagree with me all you desire, but at least know what you're disagreeing with.
I'm guessing there are zero posters that have watched every minute of every game...yeah, we know, you have.
Why do you care so much about this? It's a message board that entertains us while we should be working. I banter with you so I don't have to look at spreadsheets...nothing more.
At the end of the day, if the Wizards advance...ok, whatever. But normally the people that honk their horn and puff their chest about how much they know are usually the ones that don't know too much. That much I'm sure of.
Well, based on the amount of time you've also spent in this thread, I'd say you are plenty invested yourself. But if you're really wondering, I am genuinely interested, invested, and entertained by this discussion. The Wizards are my favorite team and the Pacers are my second favorite team for as long as they have David West. I have strong opinions on this as I do with most things to which I invest this much time, effort, and in the Wizards' case, money. What can I say, I'm an opinionated person who enjoys a good argument. Nobody forced you to participate in it, but you somehow keep finding yourself back in the middle of it. So I'll ask you, why is that?
Xville
05-14-2014, 05:28 PM
I know that my opinions and refusal to agree with you causes you a a great deal of anger, frustration, and general butthurtedness, and for that I truly feel for you. But this tired act of you exaggerating my views to the utmost extremes is simply not going to make your nonsense any less make believe than it is. I'm going to write another long post. I challenge you to actually read the whole thing. I think if you do, and you are a reasonable person, you will be enlightened. You may still disagree with my main theories, which you are entitled to, but you'll have a very hard time proving my reasoning for forming said theories incorrect.
And before I start, my mind is by no means unsusceptible to being changed. You're way, way off there. I actually change my opinions quite often based on new facts. In fact, as you might remember from about a million posts ago in this mess, since a couple months ago, I have completely changed my entire opinion on both of these teams, on what the Pacers' potential is anymore, on what the Wizards' ceiling as a team this year is, and so on. But I'm not going to change my mind based on lazy, baseless arguments, when what I've seen over the course of a large sample size has done nothing but verify what I've thought for some time now. I am genuinely frustrated watching this Pacers team, even though I am rooting for the Wizards, because at one point in time, I also thought they were the only chance at taking down the Heat. Now it's obvious that nobody is going to do that, but at the Pacer's peak, which I now believe was a tiny bit of fool's gold mixed in with some very good basketball, I thought they had a fighting chance. That was awhile ago now, and they are not anything like that team anymore.
There are a few things that , in general, have held true all series (of course there are certain plays, stretches that are exceptions, but broadly speaking):
* Indiana's effort, focus, and apparent care is mind-bogglingly inconsistent. I think you've even alluded to agreeing with this, and it partly plays into some other points.
* Indiana, while very good on defense when bought in, still does not have an organized or generally effective offense, and relies way too much on one guy (usually George) dominating the ball and settling for a far less than ideal shot, and they don't do a good job, generally, of offensive rebounding, which was apparently supposed to be a strength of theirs. In fact, the Pacers are second to last in the playoffs in their own offensive rebounding, while the Wizards are third in opponent's offensive rebounding, while playing two teams that were allegedly supposed to be great in that area. Simply put, this is a major advantage for Washington as a team in this match up. The Wizards have absolutely DOMINATED this series on the offensive glass which shows me two things: They are a better offensive rebounding team, and they give better, more consistent effort.
* The Wizards, while they don't have the best overall player in the series, have more players who are capable (read: reasonably likely) of going off for huge nights offensively. I'll give you Hibbert, who I admitted to you I was wrong about in terms of what he'd ever contribute in this series. That leaves four guys on Indiana who can go off versus five on Washington. Two guys on Indiana have really gone off in this series, while four have for the Wizards. The Wizards bench has also held the advantage over Indiana's without question. This backs up my theory that Washington is the better overall team, even though Indiana has the best player. Unfortunately for Indiana, while they have the best player, he has been amazingly inconsistent still (both in effort and production, disturbingly), which is something you really have to question in a guy who's supposed to be a superstar.
* The Pacers defense has absolutely given the Wizards difficulty, in stretches, and I would never argue otherwise. But the Wizards defense overall has been more effective, due to its impressiveness, as well as the Pacers' lack of offensive fluidity. When the Pacers' defense is at its best, they protect the rim and the paint and force Washington to rely on outside shots, and in one game, it really worked because the Wizards couldn't hit the ocean. But their defensive efforts are reliant on the game being stuck in the half court, and more importantly, inconsistent. The Wizards, even in getting blown out in Game 3, have for the most part never let down their defensive efforts. I think it says a lot about the two teams, their leadership, and their guts.
* John Wall is the Wizards' best player, and for the most part, they go as he goes. When he's on, the offense is beautiful thing to watch flow. He was horrendous until last night. Now I know that Indiana hasn't played its best either, but watching the first four games with our leader basically AWOL, I'd have thought the series would have looked a lot more lopsided than it did. I think the real Pacers fans who know this team (and I have many friends in this category who agree with me) were greatly concerned to see how the games were panning out, despite not having to deal with an even halfway decent John Wall for the vast majority of the minutes. That's the same reason I fear Paul George. He's the kind of player who can be unstoppable and win a game by himself when he's at his best, which he was in Game 4. And then there's Gortat, who was invisible the first four games as well after being outstanding all year. That's our starting 1 and 5 giving us nothing, while Hibbert turns it around for three games out of nowhere. From the other angle, George has also been inconsistent and neither West nor Stephenson have set the world on fire, but again, Indiana's inconsistency has become the RULE not the EXCEPTION for a long time now. Washington has a great recent track record of playing really well and really hard, while Indiana does not.
So here's where we get to where you're going nuts in the exaggerating to the extreme department. I never said that when the Wizards win, it's because they're so much better, while when the Pacers win, they deserve zero credit. You interpret that falsely in your own mind, presumably because I've gotten under your skin throughout these debates and you're thinking, "Fuck this PMI guy, he thinks he knows everything, I'm going to remain steadily his contrarian regardless of what I see (or don't see) if I bother watching the games." But here's how I see it. The results are what they are, and Indiana is up 3-2 any way you slice it, and yes, at the end of the series, that's all that will matter in terms of who gets the right to go lose to Miami. But Indiana is still not playing anywhere near as well as they once did, have a ton of pressure on them, and are offensively challenged to a downright concerning degree, while Washington is playing it's best team basketball of the year (despite not once having had more than a couple guys click on the same night) save one inexplicable shooting night, taking close to zero defensive possessions off, and playing pressure free. Those general observations, along with some of the other things I've mentioned, have led me to form an opinion which I would've thought was crazy a few months ago, which is that the Wizards are a better basketball team than the Pacers right now. You disagree for reasons you either refuse to explain with substantial detail, fail to comprehend, or simply have made up, and you're fully entitled to do so. The Pacers may still win, of course, and then you'll be back here puffing out your chest thinking you were a genius all along, but I seriously challenge you to counter the points I've made with facts that contradict them. Disagree with me all you desire, but at least know what you're disagreeing with.
Well, based on the amount of time you've also spent in this thread, I'd say you are plenty invested yourself. But if you're really wondering, I am genuinely interested, invested, and entertained by this discussion. The Wizards are my favorite team and the Pacers are my second favorite team for as long as they have David West. I have strong opinions on this as I do with most things to which I invest this much time, effort, and in the Wizards' case, money. What can I say, I'm an opinionated person who enjoys a good argument. Nobody forced you to participate in it, but you somehow keep finding yourself back in the middle of it. So I'll ask you, why is that?
You can write as many novels on this message board that you want and keep rehashing the same tired points over and over and honestly I agree with most of your points here, except when it comes to that from those facts, that means the wizards are a better team overall. You can use your eye test and throw out all the stats you want, but the real one hat matters is 3-2. Now if the pacers come out and somehow lose this series, I'll gladly come back here and say I was completely wrong, the wizrards are in fact better, but if it turns out the pacers win the series I doubt you will do the same. Because it will not be because they are the better team, it will instead be that the wizards had a bad shooting night, wall disappeared, etc etc. That kind of stuff works in a one game playoff, those excuses don't work in a seven game series. At least that is in my opinion, not yours and I don't believe either one of us is going to budge on that.
ArizonaXUGrad
05-14-2014, 06:35 PM
By all accounts, Doc is a pretty good guy, hater.
Say what you want, but his rant was absolutely ridiculous. The refs did miss a clear foul by Barnes at the end (I am all for letting contact go but not when it clearly kills the shot), but I think they either gave the Thunder the ball to correct that miss or they knew that the rules actually say if team A's player slaps the hand of Team B's player with the ball it's Team B's ball regardless if Team A's player touched the ball last or not. Team A's player action pushed the hand and thus ball out of bounds.
They explained the rules today. So not only did they get the call right on the out of bounds but they even missed a clearly too hard foul in the lane. Doc Rivers was a cry baby.
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