Cryers really crying today

[OTRMUSKIE]

Love watching Dayton lose even if they arnt in our league anymore. Their board is fantastic! Here is what the majority of their post said in the game thread.

http://udpride.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24463&page=2

richmond can't score...but if refs keep calling fouls for breathing on a guy...they'll hang around

Officiating a joke.

These refs are screwing UD up and down. Hideous.
Posted via Mobile Device

These refs are absolute garbage. Richmond getting every call and UD can't get ONE.
Posted via Mobile Device

If we lose, fouls will be the main reason.

These refs must be getting paid by the foul

We are going to lose this game b/c of fouls. Unbelieveable.
If we lose this game it's on the Zebras
Posted via Mobile Device

Officiating is still a joke

These refs don't have a clue. We're going to lose because of it.

I no longer know what a foul is

We cannot beat the officials. 43-43, game is over. Total joke.

These officials are HORRIBLE!

Absolute phantom foul --- nothing happens!!!!!

Refs absolutely horrible!!!!!

Awfully hard to beat 8 men!

No doubt the officials decided the game. One can argue whether the fouls were legit but what cannot be argued is that the whistles determined the winner.

The incessant whistles made it so we could not maintain any momentum or get into any kind of rhythm or flow.

In spite of it all - I believe the Flyers were the better team on the floor today.

Sadly today the best team didn't win

[West is Best]

I haven't seen UD play this year, but if the home team got 35 foul shots and my team got only 18, I'd probably be pretty mad about it too.

[OTRMUSKIE]

Well they made 32 of 35. Total foul call was 26-19 Dayton. They always blame losses on the refs. That's why they are called the cryers. They never blame a loss on the fact their team is mediocre. Never ever ever blame the refs for a loss unless a ref jumps up in the air grabs the ball right before the game winning shot goes in.

[xudash]

UD has a classless Fanbase, who are extremely jealous of Xavier. They do not know how to execute through a full conference season, so they end-up making excuses; it's everybody else in the world going against them in their efforts.

These are people who want to believe that budget adjustments equate to financial difficulties. The poor bastards have no idea with respect to where we are in the silent phase of our new campaign. I hope they will do now what they always do - continue to work their way towards a .500 season, only to then have to come to grips with the fact that Xavier is doing just fine, obviously including experiencing much more basketball success than they will ever enjoy.

[bobbiemcgee]

I haven't seen UD play this year, but if the home team got 35 foul shots and my team got only 18, I'd probably be pretty mad about it too.

Dayton totally avoids contact. Richmond dribbled drived them to death and pushed inside until they got a call and then made the ft's. Archie just got badly outcoached. Have no idea who he thought he was playing this week as they were very poorly prepared for the UR attack.

[X-band '01]

They must really want to host AND play in the play-in games this year.

[xudash]

They must really want to host AND play in the play-in games this year.

Well, they're sure to do one of the two.

[DC Muskie]

Dayton always gets screwed by the refs.

Always. Especially when they played Xavier. For some reason they never catch a break. I feel bad for them.

[muskienick]

Dayton always gets screwed by the refs.

Always. Especially when they played Xavier. For some reason they never catch a break. I feel bad for them.

Another one of those --- "Which hurts more, the tongue or the cheek?"

[xubrew]

Dayton loses to WAAAY more non-tournament teams on the road than they beat. That's a problem.

[nuts4xu]

Dayton loses to WAAAY more non-tournament teams on the road than they beat. That's a problem.

That's because they suck donkeys. Bunch of whining dicks!

[OTRMUSKIE]

I tried to be unbiased here and I have to say that was one of the best officiating games I have seen. At times they may have been inconsistent but Not that much. Richmond was clearly the better team and if anything Dayton should have been called for more fouls than they did. I am sure when your team sucks year after year that blaming the refs is the only option you have left to explain your teams lack of goodness. Also get some new uniforms Dayton! Looks like you have garbage bags with wholes cut out for the arms.

[X-man]

I looked on the UD board to see what the cryers were saying and was surprised to see that one of them claimed that they had looked at other boards (including ours) after the game, and that even X fans were saying that the cryers were "hosed" yesterday. I must have missed all those posts by X fans. Frankly, I watched quite a bit of that game and like seemingly all the X fans posting here, share the view that the cryers were "hosed" only in their own biased minds. I supposed they have gotten spoiled by the ref's giving them countless breaks on their own floor, and have started to believe that "unbiased" officiating must resemble the travesty that regularly occurs at the uddump.

[wkrq59]

That's because they suck donkeys. Bunch of whining dicks!

What Nuts said and triple it with a twist of lemon, no sugar. I saw the entire game, and if anyone got hosed it was Richmond. The Spiders were clearly the better team and Dayton had better do one of two things: 1)Apply for membership in the Horizon League or 2)Try the Ohio Valley League or Conference or whatever because their talent level has been eclipsed so badly it will take them years to catch up. I'm serious. Who wants to go there????

:seestars::lol::whiteflag::homer:

[Cheesehead]

UD has a classless Fanbase, who are extremely jealous of Xavier. They do not know how to execute through a full conference season, so they end-up making excuses; it's everybody else in the world going against them in their efforts.

These are people who want to believe that budget adjustments equate to financial difficulties. The poor bastards have no idea with respect to where we are in the silent phase of our new campaign. I hope they will do now what they always do - continue to work their way towards a .500 season, only to then have to come to grips with the fact that Xavier is doing just fine, obviously including experiencing much more basketball success than they will ever enjoy.

I really enjoyed this post.

UD sucks!

[xubrew]

What Nuts said and triple it with a twist of lemon, no sugar. I saw the entire game, and if anyone got hosed it was Richmond. The Spiders were clearly the better team and Dayton had better do one of two things: 1)Apply for membership in the Horizon League or 2)Try the Ohio Valley League or Conference or whatever because their talent level has been eclipsed so badly it will take them years to catch up. I'm serious. Who wants to go there????

:seestars::lol::whiteflag::homer:

Green Bay is a better team this year. They wouldn't win the Horizon League. UD is better than most of the league, but typically the best team in the HL (whoever it is in any given year) is better than UD. Of course for many years that team was Butler, but still.

[Musketeer_15]

Speaking of Dayton, did anyone catch SNL last night? One of the stories in the weekend update was about how a lady in Dayton had a lost dog and the reward for finding it was a pack of cigarettes and a case of beer. It starts at about the 8 minute mark on this video:
http://www.nbc.com/saturday-night-live/video/weekend-update-1-18-14/n45318/

[Cheesehead]

Speaking of Dayton, did anyone catch SNL last night? One of the stories in the weekend update was about how a lady in Dayton had a lost dog and the reward for finding it was a pack of cigarettes and a case of beer. It starts at about the 8 minute mark on this video:
http://www.nbc.com/saturday-night-live/video/weekend-update-1-18-14/n45318/

This really should come as no surprise to anyone outside of Dayton.

[blobfan]

Speaking of Dayton, did anyone catch SNL last night? One of the stories in the weekend update was about how a lady in Dayton had a lost dog and the reward for finding it was a pack of cigarettes and a case of beer. It starts at about the 8 minute mark on this video:
http://www.nbc.com/saturday-night-live/video/weekend-update-1-18-14/n45318/

It was actually a clever ploy to stand out amongst the typical 'missing pet' posters. And it worked. The guy that found the dog said he gave it a closer look because of the offer. As much as I hate to say anything good about something coming out of Dayton, I do give this woman credit for being clever.

Perhaps she's not a Flyer fan?

[Musketeer_15]

It was actually a clever ploy to stand out amongst the typical 'missing pet' posters. And it worked. The guy that found the dog said he gave it a closer look because of the offer. As much as I hate to say anything good about something coming out of Dayton, I do give this woman credit for being clever.

Perhaps she's not a Flyer fan?

If this lady has logic like that then she must be a Raider fan trying to tend to the needs of Flyer fans haha

[Pablo's Brother]

Two lucid posts from a UD fan from Blackburn Review (the only good thing in Dayton).



DoctorFlyer
January 19, 2014 at 11:50 PM


This is typical and predictable. I have been watching this for 25 years from the front row. I have treated may of these players. Purnell could not change it. Gregory made no difference, Archie is more of the same. We ball out in Non-Conference and put ourselves in the national spotlight, then we are average in conference play. Every 7-8 years we have an exceptional year. 85% of the years we are a nice NIT team. This goes much deeper than talent and coaching, and recruiting, this is a habit, a way of life, a staple of Dayton Basketball. Just like Xavier will always be Xavier and be in the national spotlight. We will always littel beloved Dayton with the best fans in the country. Move us in the league with the Big Boys, and the exact same will happen. We will beat the world before conference play, and play .500 in league. It is going to take a major change in every aspect of this program to change this permanent and repeating DNA makeup of Dayton Basketball.

DoctorFlyer
January 20, 2014 at 12:39 AM


As a follow up to my post, an Interesting phenomena has occurred this year. I now live in Texas but went to the USC game, something was different. I watched the Saint Louis and Richmond games on TV, and there it was again. For the first time in my 44 year following of UD Basketball, I did not yell, I did not get mad, and I was not un-happy after the games. My son yelled every word in the book. My daughter is still pissed about USC, not me. My DNA has learned to accept and expect the DNA of Dayton Basketball. I saw this happen to my Dad about 15 years ago, when he stopped going to games, and no longer let it bother him. Sooner or later the stink of mediocrocy gets in your cells and you learn to live with it. I am in a peaceful place . .. I can enjoy the next 44 years of NIT tournaments.

[JAX 3758]

Two lucid posts from a UD fan from Blackburn Review (the only good thing in Dayton).



DoctorFlyer
January 19, 2014 at 11:50 PM


This is typical and predictable. I have been watching this for 25 years from the front row. I have treated may of these players. Purnell could not change it. Gregory made no difference, Archie is more of the same. We ball out in Non-Conference and put ourselves in the national spotlight, then we are average in conference play. Every 7-8 years we have an exceptional year. 85% of the years we are a nice NIT team. This goes much deeper than talent and coaching, and recruiting, this is a habit, a way of life, a staple of Dayton Basketball. Just like Xavier will always be Xavier and be in the national spotlight. We will always littel beloved Dayton with the best fans in the country. Move us in the league with the Big Boys, and the exact same will happen. We will beat the world before conference play, and play .500 in league. It is going to take a major change in every aspect of this program to change this permanent and repeating DNA makeup of Dayton Basketball.

DoctorFlyer
January 20, 2014 at 12:39 AM


As a follow up to my post, an Interesting phenomena has occurred this year. I now live in Texas but went to the USC game, something was different. I watched the Saint Louis and Richmond games on TV, and there it was again. For the first time in my 44 year following of UD Basketball, I did not yell, I did not get mad, and I was not un-happy after the games. My son yelled every word in the book. My daughter is still pissed about USC, not me. My DNA has learned to accept and expect the DNA of Dayton Basketball. I saw this happen to my Dad about 15 years ago, when he stopped going to games, and no longer let it bother him. Sooner or later the stink of mediocrocy gets in your cells and you learn to live with it. I am in a peaceful place . .. I can enjoy the next 44 years of NIT tournaments.

This is the saddest thing I have ever heard

[X-man]

This is the saddest thing I have ever heard

It kind of sounds like what life would be like living on seditatives, which is of course what one would have to do if one lived in the "metro" Dayton area.

[X-band '01]

VCU is laying the wood up at UD Arena. At the end of the day, both teams are playing as we expected them to play in preseason.

[Cheesehead]

VCU 80
UD 66

that is awesome. Love to see the Cryers lose again and at home.

[ammtd34]

VCU is laying the wood up at UD Arena. At the end of the day, both teams are playing as we expected them to play in preseason.

I was there. 2 for 2 in seeing Flyer losses this year. I was at USC game, too. I honestly felt bad for Devin Oliver tonight. He has apparently turned into the scapegoat this year. People were screaming -SCREAMING - at him tonight, and also screaming at Archie to take him out whenever he was even perceived to have made a mistake. Of course, the basketball knowledge there is low, so a lot of the things they were yelling about weren't his fault. I enjoy seeing them lose because their fans are stupid, but thousands of adults screaming at a kid playing hard was embarrassing.

[xudash]

I wonder how long it will take for them to begin calling for Archie's head.

They are trending right back to their annual Groundhog Day experience: no better than .500 in league play with no hope of making the big show again.

[LadyMuskie]

This is just so sad for dayton. Oh no. Just terrible. What more do they have to do to win? I mean, they host the play-in game (huge honor!). They hired Xavier's former coach's baby brother to try to be more like Xavier. They play in a sewer treatment plant, I guess, to give the appearance of being an underdog or maybe to distract the other team with the stench. They have the world's classiest players and fans. Geez. What do they have to do to get a break. Just a real tragedy.

:laugh:

[OTRMUSKIE]

What can Dayton do? It's not the city because a lot of schools play in an awful city or at least not a desirable city. They have the fan base, the past tradition and resources to succeed. What could it be that keeps them from winning. I think luck is a huge factor and also being in a hotbed for college hoops. But then again so is Xavier and UC and they keep winning. They have to be doing something wrong.

[GoMuskies]

Looking at the schedule, I could see Dayton winning the next eight in a row. And they'd better, because they're losing the next three after that.

Then again, I wouldn't be surprised if they lost at URI next time out.

[OTRMUSKIE]

Dayton is done! They will not beat RI. GW will beat them too. They are just cursed with poor talent and poor coaches.

[ammtd34]

I just checked the box score. Oliver was 5/10 from the field and 9/9 from the line (the rest of the team was 6/17) for 21 pts. He had 3 TO, 5 rebounds, and an assist. If I didn't see the game and only heard the crowd's reaction to him, you would have thought he just caught the ball and threw it out of bounds every time he touched it.

[kyxu]

Dayton looked really good at the beginning of the season, with convincing wins over Gonzaga and Cal, and a last-second loss to Baylor. I suppose there's pleny of precedent for their conference woes, however. This is same old UD.

[xubrew]

Dayton looked really good at the beginning of the season, with convincing wins over Gonzaga and Cal, and a last-second loss to Baylor. I suppose there's pleny of precedent for their conference woes, however. This is same old UD.

Agreed.

They really did look good. But, the teams they beat haven't turned out to be as good as expected, and they've gone on to lose to teams that aren't so good themselves. The way they're trending, they will probably need to buy a ticket if they want to go to the NCAAs.

Like you said too, Dayton has done this before.

[DC Muskie]

I just checked the box score. Oliver was 5/10 from the field and 9/9 from the line (the rest of the team was 6/17) for 21 pts. He had 3 TO, 5 rebounds, and an assist. If I didn't see the game and only heard the crowd's reaction to him, you would have thought he just caught the ball and threw it out of bounds every time he touched it.

This reminds me...man I miss London Warren.

[RoseyMuskie]

This reminds me...man I miss London Warren.

Don't forget Rob Lowery!

[Masterofreality]

This reminds me...man I miss London Warren.

The Human Turnover

[nuts4xu]

Who was the stiff described by someone as a "traffic cone"? Was that Jimmie Binnie?
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_8FtYKvHl_Fg/R1Q3BvP7bxI/AAAAAAAAAXI/Xe4AkvVXSsQ/s1600-R/Jimmy%2BBinnie.jpg

[LadyMuskie]

I think the someone who called Binnie a traffic cone was Byron Larkin! It was epic!

He also said he "had no discernible basketball skills". Brilliant! Just brilliant!

[X Factor]

Remember when Trent Meachum was going to be their savior?

[muskienick]

What happened to Matt Kavanaugh? I thought he was going to be THE man in the paint this year after sitting out last year due to a discipline issue. I note that he's had only one game with double-digit rebounds (the first game of the season against IPFW) and three games in double-digit points (2-10's and 1-11). He also seems to be down in minutes played (only one game of 30 or more - 31) and 3 in the 20's (two 20's and one 26). I guess their run of BWS's continues since the "glory days" of Keith Waleskowski.

[ammtd34]

What happened to Matt Kavanaugh? I thought he was going to be THE man in the paint this year after sitting out last year due to a discipline issue. I note that he's had only one game with double-digit rebounds (the first game of the season against IPFW) and three games in double-digit points (2-10's and 1-11). He also seems to be down in minutes played (only one game of 30 or more - 31) and 3 in the 20's (two 20's and one 26). I guess their run of BWS's continues since the "glory days" of Keith Waleskowski.

1. He's not good.

2. In their loss to St. Louis, he got knocked out. It didn't look very good. In practice the next week he hit heads with Alex Gavrilovic. At the VCU game, he was wearing a black sport coat, khaki pants, and a purple shirt. It was awful. 2012/2013 Matt Stainbrook he is not.

http://gifsection.com/2014/01/matt-kavanaugh-stepped-dayton-st-louis/matt-kavanaugh-stepped-on/

[xubrew]

What the hell is wrong with Dayton??

Seriously. All kidding aside. All joking aside. Can anyone give a good assessment of how a program can have those kinds of resources, that kind of budget, and put that much into basketball, and get so little out of it??

No university puts more into basketball and gets less out of it. None. A case could be made that maybe Creighton does, but I think it's pretty clear that Creighton gets better results than Dayton. Programs that have seat licensing, and chartered planes, and a facility like that, and an academic center like that, and a practice facility like that, and coaching salaries like that, consistently perform at a MUUUCH higher level than what Dayton does. Name one program that devotes that much to basketball and gets that little out of it. There isn't one.

Since the field expanded to 64 teams, Dayton has made it to the round of 32 twice, and been seeded better than #9th once. Essentially, they have performed at the level of Old Dominion, or Western Kentucky, or UAB, or Murray State, or Nevada, or programs like that. In fact, I believe all of those teams have won more NCAA games than Dayton since the field went to 64. Dayton performs at that level. People who follow basketball are aware of them, they occasionally win a big game, they occasionally make the dance, and every so often they'll pop into the rankings, but more often than not they're a mid-level team in a mid-level league.

All of the teams I listed typically perform at the level that Dayton does. Also, all of the teams I've listed don't have anywhere close to half the resources that Dayton does. They're not putting nearly as much into it, yet they're getting as much, or more, out of it.

Again, can anyone name a program that puts that much into basketball, and gets that little out of it?? They're basically performing at the level of George Washington (if they're even that good), yet look at the stuff that UD has compared to the stuff that GW has. Is it bad coaching hires?? Maybe. I don't think they hired any good ones, and I think they passed on a lot of coaches who would have done a fantastic job there.

It's actually kind of mind-boggling.

[GoMuskies]

Quit insulting Murray State by comparing them to Dayton. And WKU has been to a pair of Sweet Sixteens since the field went to 64. They've been far, far superior to Dayton in this era.

[xubrew]

Quit insulting Murray State by comparing them to Dayton. And WKU has been to a pair of Sweet Sixteens since the field went to 64. They've been far, far superior to Dayton in this era.

My apologies to Murray State and WKU, but this furthers my point.

UD has power conference resources. They really do. They actually have more than some of the power conference schools in regards to basketball. Yet, they're being outperformed by teams who play in bus leagues. Like WKU, for instance.

[bleedXblue]

What the hell is wrong with Dayton??

Seriously. All kidding aside. All joking aside. Can anyone give a good assessment of how a program can have those kinds of resources, that kind of budget, and put that much into basketball, and get so little out of it??

No university puts more into basketball and gets less out of it. None. A case could be made that maybe Creighton does, but I think it's pretty clear that Creighton gets better results than Dayton. Programs that have seat licensing, and chartered planes, and a facility like that, and an academic center like that, and a practice facility like that, and coaching salaries like that, consistently perform at a MUUUCH higher level than what Dayton does. Name one program that devotes that much to basketball and gets that little out of it. There isn't one.

Since the field expanded to 64 teams, Dayton has made it to the round of 32 twice, and been seeded better than #9th once. Essentially, they have performed at the level of Old Dominion, or Western Kentucky, or UAB, or Murray State, or Nevada, or programs like that. In fact, I believe all of those teams have won more NCAA games than Dayton since the field went to 64. Dayton performs at that level. People who follow basketball are aware of them, they occasionally win a big game, they occasionally make the dance, and every so often they'll pop into the rankings, but more often than not they're a mid-level team in a mid-level league.

All of the teams I listed typically perform at the level that Dayton does. Also, all of the teams I've listed don't have anywhere close to half the resources that Dayton does. They're not putting nearly as much into it, yet they're getting as much, or more, out of it.

Again, can anyone name a program that puts that much into basketball, and gets that little out of it?? They're basically performing at the level of George Washington (if they're even that good), yet look at the stuff that UD has compared to the stuff that GW has. Is it bad coaching hires?? Maybe. I don't think they hired any good ones, and I think they passed on a lot of coaches who would have done a fantastic job there.

It's actually kind of mind-boggling.

I think we've covered this multiple times.

My opinion is hard to debate IMHO.

You need better players. Its that simple.

I think they have a hard time getting top level guys. Dayton has nothing to offer. Climate sucks for the most part. The city is small and theres nothing going on there. The school is solid, but so is X, UC, OSU, IU etc...all schools within 100 miles that are better BBall options.

[ammtd34]

I've been going to games with my wife for four years along with the occasional game when I was a kid. The mood in the stands seems to be really changing. A few years ago, the fans supported the team and the place could get loud at times. This year and the last half of last year, the crowd is completely done at the first sign of any adversity.

"Here we go again."

"Why do we do this to ourselves?"

"We've been going to the girls games. It's refreshing to watch a Dayton team play with effort."

Once that attitude starts - and it has for each of the games I've been to the last two years - it never turns positive again. The USC game was close the entire game, but all anyone would talk about was how they couldn't defend the dribble drive. It wasn't even loud on the last few possessions in a tie game. It was like they assumed USC would hit a fadeaway 30 footer at the buzzer to win. And they did.

[xubrew]

I think we've covered this multiple times.

My opinion is hard to debate IMHO.

You need better players. Its that simple.

I think they have a hard time getting top level guys. Dayton has nothing to offer. Climate sucks for the most part. The city is small and theres nothing going on there. The school is solid, but so is X, UC, OSU, IU etc...all schools within 100 miles that are better BBall options.

UC fans claim that there is too much to do in Cincinnati, and that's what is holding them back. UD fans claim there is too little to do in Dayton. What a contrast.

Have you been to Bowling Green KY, Paducah KY, Wichita (sorry GO), Carbondale IL (I know they're bad this year, but they've been good in the past), or any place like that?? I don't even remember what city Northern Iowa is in, but they've outperformed Dayton. I also think Ben Jacobsen is a better coach than the last two that UD has hired. Dayton has more to offer than all of those places combined, yet they can't even perform at that level.

Christ, even Louisiana Tech looked to have a better team than Dayton this year prior to Appleby getting hurt, and they're in Rustin, Louisiana. Talk about not having anything to do. I don't think LA Tech is better than Dayton without Appleby, but with him they won at Oklahoma and gave Oklahoma State a scare. That's more than UD has done.

How is it that in the last two years, LA Tech has improved that dramatically, and UD hasn't done a thing?? Louisiana Tech had a better team than UD last year as well. It really wasn't even close.

[kyxu]

What D-I school is in Paducah, KY?

[toledodan]

UC fans claim that there is too much to do in Cincinnati, and that's what is holding them back. UD fans claim there is too little to do in Dayton. What a contrast.

Have you been to Bowling Green KY, Paducah KY, Wichita (sorry GO), Carbondale IL (I know they're bad this year, but they've been good in the past), or any place like that?? I don't even remember what city Northern Iowa is in, but they've outperformed Dayton. I also think Ben Jacobsen is a better coach than the last two that UD has hired. Dayton has more to offer than all of those places combined, yet they can't even perform at that level.



Christ, even Louisiana Tech looked to have a better team than Dayton this year prior to Appleby getting hurt, and they're in Rustin, Louisiana. Talk about not having anything to do. I don't think LA Tech is better than Dayton without Appleby, but with him they won at Oklahoma and gave Oklahoma State a scare. That's more than UD has done.

How is it that in the last two years, LA Tech has improved that dramatically, and UD hasn't done a thing?? Louisiana Tech had a better team than UD last year as well. It really wasn't even close.

wichita is a lot better place to visit and it's not even close.

[xubrew]

What D-I school is in Paducah, KY?

Murray State. Well, it's actually in Murray, but Paducah is the only thing that resembles a town of any size.

[toledodan]

dayton rags on us for last season saying we are a sinking ship. xavier and ud both had 17 wins. xavier was down four players who were expected to be on the team. lyons, wells, davis and reynolds. what was the flyers excuse?? yeah they suck.

[xubrew]

wichita is a lot better place to visit and it's not even close.

I'll concede that it is perhaps a bad example, but not my overall point.

The reason they're struggling has nothing to do with the town it's in.

If Mike White (LA Tech) or Brian Wardle (Green Bay) were to take over at UD, I bet Dayton would be a top 25 caliber program within a very short period of time. I just think they're bad at hiring coaches, and then seem to be content in finishing in the middle of the Atlantic Ten year after year after year.

[kyxu]

Murray State. Well, it's actually in Murray, but Paducah is the only thing that resembles a town of any size.

Oh, gotcha. They're like 45 minutes apart, but I see.

[toledodan]

I'll concede that it is perhaps a bad example, but not my overall point.

The reason they're struggling has nothing to do with the town it's in.

i agree 100%. they are looking for any excuse. their main guy chris brought up the point of the fan base holding on to history too long. they want to talk about thier days in the 60's trying to make them matter today. chris said about a 8 year window for being relevant in current history. i agree with that. nobody cares the flyers won maui in 2003 but they always want to bring it up.

[LadyMuskie]

The problem with Dayton, is that dayton THINKS it should win whereas schools like Xavier, Wichita State, Creighton, Butler, Western Kentucky, WORK to win. Dayton (and I mean the coaches, fans, players, administrators) has this deluded sense of entitlement that because it has a big arena, and a lot of hillbillies come to watch games, it should win with mediocre coaches and mediocre players. They don't work for it. They don't strive for it and make any and all necessary changes to get to the promised land. They just make excuses and bitch when they don't win, and they don't have the conference affiliation, city spotlight or history to make people care.

Dayton should have the same kind of success that we have. They're a similar school in many ways. Dayton is not a great city, but there are worse cities with better basketball programs. But, whereas Xavier knows that you can only become what we are today through years of working, spending money, hiring the right people, firing the wrong people, working with the surrounding neighborhoods, having a vision, a goal and working for it, all while exuding an air of superiority and success, Dayton just whines like a 3 year old who dropped his sucker in the mud.

[toledodan]

The problem with Dayton, is that dayton THINKS it should win whereas schools like Xavier, Wichita State, Creighton, Butler, Western Kentucky, WORK to win. Dayton (and I mean the coaches, fans, players, administrators) has this deluded sense of entitlement that because it has a big arena, and a lot of hillbillies come to watch games, it should win with mediocre coaches and mediocre players. They don't work for it. They don't strive for it and make any and all necessary changes to get to the promised land. They just make excuses and bitch when they don't win, and they don't have the conference affiliation, city spotlight or history to make people care.

Dayton should have the same kind of success that we have. They're a similar school in many ways. Dayton is not a great city, but there are worse cities with better basketball programs. But, whereas Xavier knows that you can only become what we are today through years of working, spending money, hiring the right people, firing the wrong people, working with the surrounding neighborhoods, having a vision, a goal and working for it, all while exuding an air of superiority and success, Dayton just whines like a 3 year old who dropped his sucker in the mud.

great post. also they want to rip the big east and the tv ratings. they think dayton being in the big east is going to change it?

[Masterofreality]

What happened to Matt Kavanaugh? I thought he was going to be THE man in the paint this year after sitting out last year due to a discipline issue.

Discipline Issue? How about rape?

Somehow it got worked out to where there were no charges filed, but what happened is not debated, even by the udump student body. Everyone was surprised that he was even allowed back in school.

As to his "lack of discernible basketball skills"...he's just another in the line of Cryer Scarecrows...tall, ugly awkward white stiffs that can't play ala Sean Finn.

Thank Gawd he was the guy with the point blank shot in Atlantic City two years ago. Of course he missed it. The only thing he could hit was Freshman udump coeds.....

.......allegedly.

[xudash]

If I understand their athletic administration correctly, a big part of their problem is strategic. They have historically emphasized as many home games as possible as a key funding source for their athletic programs at the expense of doing what Xavier, Temple and Gonzaga did to make it to the national stage and relevance: schedule challenging OOC road games to build a resume and reputation. We wouldn't be where we are today had we not pursued such a strategy. UD spent way too much time not kicking out a home game or two in order to beg for tough road games with no return dates to UD Arena in an effort to do the same.

What happened over time? Something so infuriating to an avid UD fan that they now can't see straight. Xavier blew by their program, and dramatically. Schmidt to the Gardens to - oh, no! - the Cintas Center. An NCAA resume that is the envy of most BCS schools. National pub. Learfield. The first team tagged for inclusion in the Big East. The whole smash.

All of that was accomplished with a totally supportive administration who made great coaching hires and, as we moved beyond Fogelson, pursued the scheduling strategy that helped to make us what we are today; a strategy that UD could never see or didn't want to see because of their comfortable attendance figures at UD Arena. A specific wonderful irony about that? Hoff was brilliant enough to have the architect model the CC into a cash register - suites, club bar, seat licensing, etc. Though it's not a widely followed thing, Xavier ends up landing itself on the Forbes most valuable programs list as a small, Catholic (private) school outside of any BCS conference. UD spends all this time chasing gate receipts at the expense of building a national reputation and we still manage to out manage them at the financial management thing.

Now UD is in its Perfect Storm, except that the ice machine crapped out without any good catch to protect and they're now steaming back towards oblivion. This isn't the 60's or 70's anymore. Collegiate basketball is big business. Collegiate basketball now matters very much to most collegiate administrators. Realignment forced a lot of hands. I'll assume the NCAA Basketball Tournament will remain pretty much as it is now, meaning that the big boys will continue to be a part of it, so the money, the ratings, the Cinderella stories, et al will all remain part of what is one of the truly greatest sporting events on earth.

Am I suggesting that UD has no chance to turn around? No, I'm not suggesting that. But I do believe it is that much harder for them to turn around now. The stakes are now high, it's a very competitive environment, and they're frankly not all that well positioned, notwithstanding some of their facilities. And here is the main point: even if UD turns around, they'll most likely have trouble sustaining success, because UD has been firmly pigeon-holed into a mid-major brand in a mid-major conference at this point. The job will be - is - viewed as a stepping stone.

Regardless of what anyone thinks of the Big East at this point and its prospects, including FoxSports' prospects, the fact of the matter is that it was a very big thing for UD to not make the cut into the Big East. We all know UD didn't have a prayer in hell of making it, but they thought they had one. They never did. And the fact that they didn't make it has big implications for UD moving forward, as its fan base otherwise desperately looks for early-on failure points for Fox television ratings. We're just launching into this, but a $500 million TV package between 10 schools is a big thing. The exposure is a big thing. A NY MSG conference tournament is a big thing. Yet UD still gets to refer to LaSalle, Fordham and Duquesne as conference mates.

Some of you ladies and gents have really hit the nail on the head here: UD's fan base is tired. It's demoralized. It's Groundhog's Day again. That isn't sustainable, because ticket prices have been going up there while the product continues to go sideways, at best. If they don't turn around now what they have to turn around, the UD fan-consumer will begin to vote with his or her feet. It was one thing to go sideways. Some of them could still put their mothy sweater vests on and walk into their overly red facility and recall the Days of Donoher while UD players ran up and down the floor with some patsy program. That isn't going to work moving forward. Not with their ticket pricing. Not with their Groundhog Day results.

[bobbiemcgee]

Flyer Season @ about 2:06

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hMjL76obRLI

[Masterofreality]

UD's fan base is tired. It's demoralized......

......It's almost DEAD. Three Fourths of the lower sideline bowl is populated by declining decrepit Blue Hairs who hide oxygen tanks under their red sweaters. In 5 years, the population will severely decrease in urine dump ArenaTown.

I hope PMThor never gets summoned to that toilet to attend to all the emergency medical cases as backup. It will test his Hippocratic Oath severely.

[muskienick]

I generally presume innocence until proven guilty. It's hard to prove guilt if charges are not even filed!

[Masterofreality]

I generally presume innocence until proven guilty. It's hard to prove guilt if charges are not even filed!

He got kicked out of school, but then was let back in to everyone's surprise.

He most assurredly was NOT innocent.

[ammtd34]

He got kicked out of school, but then was let back in to everyone's surprise.

He most assurredly was NOT innocent.

My sister at UD said that those accusations were the least surprising thing she had ever heard.

[Chalmers0]

My sister at UD said that those accusations were the least surprising thing she had ever heard.

Also know a few UD students who said he has always had a reputation for things of that nature. They weren't even remotely shocked when it all came out last year.

[LadyMuskie]

That's sad, terrifying and disappointing on the part of the administration for allowing him back on campus/on the team.

[xubrew]

If I understand their athletic administration correctly, a big part of their problem is strategic. They have historically emphasized as many home games as possible as a key funding source for their athletic programs at the expense of doing what Xavier, Temple and Gonzaga did to make it to the national stage and relevance: schedule challenging OOC road games to build a resume and reputation. We wouldn't be where we are today had we not pursued such a strategy. UD spent way too much time not kicking out a home game or two in order to beg for tough road games with no return dates to UD Arena in an effort to do the same.

What happened over time? Something so infuriating to an avid UD fan that they now can't see straight. Xavier blew by their program, and dramatically. Schmidt to the Gardens to - oh, no! - the Cintas Center. An NCAA resume that is the envy of most BCS schools. National pub. Learfield. The first team tagged for inclusion in the Big East. The whole smash.

All of that was accomplished with a totally supportive administration who made great coaching hires and, as we moved beyond Fogelson, pursued the scheduling strategy that helped to make us what we are today; a strategy that UD could never see or didn't want to see because of their comfortable attendance figures at UD Arena. A specific wonderful irony about that? Hoff was brilliant enough to have the architect model the CC into a cash register - suites, club bar, seat licensing, etc. Though it's not a widely followed thing, Xavier ends up landing itself on the Forbes most valuable programs list as a small, Catholic (private) school outside of any BCS conference. UD spends all this time chasing gate receipts at the expense of building a national reputation and we still manage to out manage them at the financial management thing.

Now UD is in its Perfect Storm, except that the ice machine crapped out without any good catch to protect and they're now steaming back towards oblivion. This isn't the 60's or 70's anymore. Collegiate basketball is big business. Collegiate basketball now matters very much to most collegiate administrators. Realignment forced a lot of hands. I'll assume the NCAA Basketball Tournament will remain pretty much as it is now, meaning that the big boys will continue to be a part of it, so the money, the ratings, the Cinderella stories, et al will all remain part of what is one of the truly greatest sporting events on earth.

Am I suggesting that UD has no chance to turn around? No, I'm not suggesting that. But I do believe it is that much harder for them to turn around now. The stakes are now high, it's a very competitive environment, and they're frankly not all that well positioned, notwithstanding some of their facilities. And here is the main point: even if UD turns around, they'll most likely have trouble sustaining success, because UD has been firmly pigeon-holed into a mid-major brand in a mid-major conference at this point. The job will be - is - viewed as a stepping stone.

Regardless of what anyone thinks of the Big East at this point and its prospects, including FoxSports' prospects, the fact of the matter is that it was a very big thing for UD to not make the cut into the Big East. We all know UD didn't have a prayer in hell of making it, but they thought they had one. They never did. And the fact that they didn't make it has big implications for UD moving forward, as its fan base otherwise desperately looks for early-on failure points for Fox television ratings. We're just launching into this, but a $500 million TV package between 10 schools is a big thing. The exposure is a big thing. A NY MSG conference tournament is a big thing. Yet UD still gets to refer to LaSalle, Fordham and Duquesne as conference mates.

Some of you ladies and gents have really hit the nail on the head here: UD's fan base is tired. It's demoralized. It's Groundhog's Day again. That isn't sustainable, because ticket prices have been going up there while the product continues to go sideways, at best. If they don't turn around now what they have to turn around, the UD fan-consumer will begin to vote with his or her feet. It was one thing to go sideways. Some of them could still put their mothy sweater vests on and walk into their overly red facility and recall the Days of Donoher while UD players ran up and down the floor with some patsy program. That isn't going to work moving forward. Not with their ticket pricing. Not with their Groundhog Day results.

Good post, and I agree with a lot of it, but my viewpoint is different than yours. You're talking about comparing Dayton to the current Big East, when I don't think my bar is even that high.

You say UD is a stepping stone job. How?? What "next level" program would be interested in hiring a coach who can't finish in the top half of the Atlantic Ten despite having twice the resources as the teams in the rest of the league??

Being as good as GW, and La Salle, and Richmond, and VCU and UMass should not be hard, especially when UD puts twice as much into basketball as any of those other programs do. They're not as good as any of them. Those are just the teams in their league

How is it that Louisiana Tech and Green Bay and Belmont (arguably) have better teams this year than any team that Dayton has had since the 08-09 season?? Not only that, those programs seem to have more sustainability and future potential than UD. Those programs don't have anything close to what UD has when it comes to resources, yet they've put together better teams.

Just count the number of teams that are not only better than UD this year, but better than any team UD has had in the last five years. It's astounding. UMass, SLU (who does invest in basketball, but not to the degree that UD does), VCU, GW, La Salle (perhaps not this year although they have been playing better lately, but last year), Green Bay, Louisiana Tech (prior to the injury), Southern Miss (arguably), and SMU. Middle Tennessee is at the bottom of their talent cycle now, but they had better teams than UD the previous two seasons.

It shouldn't be hard for UD to be better than those teams. It should be easy. In fact, it should be expected. How in the hell can all those teams outperform UD with all of the crap that UD has and all of the resources UD puts into basketball??

[LadyMuskie]

Does UD invest in its basketball program, or does it just pay mediocre coaches a lot of money to coach? There's a difference.

[xubrew]

Does UD invest in its basketball program, or does it just pay mediocre coaches a lot of money to coach? There's a difference.

Well, they definitely do the latter.

[bleedXblue]

Good post, and I agree with a lot of it, but my viewpoint is different than yours. You're talking about comparing Dayton to the current Big East, when I don't think my bar is even that high.

You say UD is a stepping stone job. How?? What "next level" program would be interested in hiring a coach who can't finish in the top half of the Atlantic Ten despite having twice the resources as the teams in the rest of the league??

Being as good as GW, and La Salle, and Richmond, and VCU and UMass should not be hard, especially when UD puts twice as much into basketball as any of those other programs do. They're not as good as any of them. Those are just the teams in their league

How is it that Louisiana Tech and Green Bay and Belmont (arguably) have better teams this year than any team that Dayton has had since the 08-09 season?? Not only that, those programs seem to have more sustainability and future potential than UD. Those programs don't have anything close to what UD has when it comes to resources, yet they've put together better teams.

Just count the number of teams that are not only better than UD this year, but better than any team UD has had in the last five years. It's astounding. UMass, SLU (who does invest in basketball, but not to the degree that UD does), VCU, GW, La Salle (perhaps not this year although they have been playing better lately, but last year), Green Bay, Louisiana Tech (prior to the injury), Southern Miss (arguably), and SMU. Middle Tennessee is at the bottom of their talent cycle now, but they had better teams than UD the previous two seasons.

It shouldn't be hard for UD to be better than those teams. It should be easy. In fact, it should be expected. How in the hell can all those teams outperform UD with all of the crap that UD has and all of the resources UD puts into basketball??

Well, GT hired Gregory and Purnell went to Clemson

[ammtd34]

From their board. Pretty funny.


Trying to stay positive, there will be no losses to X this year. Archie has achieved something for Dayton that has not happened since the 1980s. Congratulations on that achievement!

[Muskie in dayton]

Does UD invest in its basketball program, or does it just pay mediocre coaches a lot of money to coach? There's a difference.

Wait a minute, are you implying that Brian Gregory was mediocre?!? That's like saying that Mick Cronin is of average height.

[xubrew]

Well, GT hired Gregory and Purnell went to Clemson

Well Georgia Tech was stupid, and when Clemson hired OP, Dayton had just earned a #4 seed, and had gone 14-2 in the league, which was better then than it is now.

I thought Purnell was a good coach. He did well at both Dayton and Clemson, and although he never won an NCAA game, he still won at a higher rate than what either school was winning at prior to him getting there. Now since getting to DePaul....not so much, but OP did a good job at Dayton.

[danaandvictory]

Does UD invest in its basketball program, or does it just pay mediocre coaches a lot of money to coach? There's a difference.

They absolutely invest in the basketball program, the problem is that their strategic plan is ass-backwards. It's not lack of effort by players or coaches, that's just asinine. It's a program that has no organizational rudder. The best thing that happened to XU basketball was having leadership that understood the value of the sport to the school and effectively adapted over time to stay ahead of the curve. No one knows what the hell Dayton's plan is. I bet their AD doesn't know.

[Masterofreality]

Simple, the Cryers problem is the same as it's been for 35 years....

They never get any Ref's calls.

[bobbiemcgee]

OP made 2 Ncaa's with Brooks Hall via the loan scandal.

http://articles.baltimoresun.com/2000-04-19/sports/0004220401_1_frostburg-state-stevenson-brooks-hall

[xudash]

They absolutely invest in the basketball program, the problem is that their strategic plan is ass-backwards. It's not lack of effort by players or coaches, that's just asinine. It's a program that has no organizational rudder. The best thing that happened to XU basketball was having leadership that understood the value of the sport to the school and effectively adapted over time to stay ahead of the curve. No one knows what the hell Dayton's plan is. I bet their AD doesn't know.

My point is their AD DOES know, but he has the wrong plan in place.

If you wanted to describe UD's athletic plan in one word, I'll submit that word is "CONTENTMENT"; but more satisfied than happy. They appear satisfied to pursue their mostly dog crap home schedule in order to maximize the number of home games they can play in the Dump in order to max their gate receipts revenue. The problem is this and it's simple: they've been increasing their ticket package pricing over the years, but their product isn't keeping up with the pricing.

Combine that with the simple fact that we're talking about the sports business here, and you end up having UD as an unaccomplished mid-major with mediocre results wearing out its fan base year over year.

This may be more about UD becoming fractured with respect to fan support and consequently revenue if they don't turn it around quickly, rather than experiencing material program improvement from here. Look at it this way: to UD's credit, they almost never had to worry about fan elasticity; the fan base would show up for crap and would continue to show up as crap followed crap. But now their loyalty to UD is getting fried by continuous crap that one must pay more money to witness.

I'll mention it again, but from another angle: does anyone here believe that any football playing member of the MAC has a shot at being a nationally relevant football power? I believe you would agree that MAC football programs are at a "structural" disadvantage when it comes to that. Well, beyond most of the programs in the top 10 or so basketball programs, most other basketball programs certainly face such a structural disadvantage when it comes to hoops. There are programs in the top ten that face them - LaSalle, Duquesne, Fordham, some AAC programs, some MWC programs, etc. The point is that UD has badly mismanaged its brand over the last three decades while Xavier adroitly managed its brand.

As we sit here in 2014, with probably most of football realignment concluded, certainly that portion of it that could materially affect basketball realignment activity from here, UD finds itself on the outside looking in, just as UC and UCONN find themselves in the same position for football.

In fact, the more I think about it, though I don't believe UD will ever be considered seriously for Big East expansion, should the expansion topic resurface at some point, one of the fastest phone calls that will take place will occur between Father Graham and Butler's President, as they both agree to argue for a block of any consideration of UD for admission. UD's administration didn't or couldn't see what Bobinski and Graham saw, and they'll pay the price for that from here on out. A key question is whether they'll pay that price at some materially different level of home attendance at this point.

[Masterofreality]

OP made 2 Ncaa's with Brooks Hall via the loan scandal.

http://articles.baltimoresun.com/2000-04-19/sports/0004220401_1_frostburg-state-stevenson-brooks-hall

One of which featured the worst NCAA game played since Peach Baskets were replaced. udump vs DePaul.

Roseanne butt ass ugly.

By the way, they still think that televising their games over a local over the airwaves channel WHIO TV is cool. Then again, cable TV and satellites haven't made their way to Mongomery County yet.

[xudash]

One of which featured the worst NCAA game played since Peach Baskets were replaced. udump vs DePaul.

Roseanne butt ass ugly.

By the way, they still think that televising their games over a local over the airwaves channel WHIO TV is cool. Then again, cable TV and satellites haven't made their way to Mongomery County yet.

Now wait a minute MOR, these people adamantly believe that Dayton is an important television market for college basketball.

[Masterofreality]

All this being said, and with all due respect to our blogs, I serve up the latest edition on the Blackburn Review, arguably the best blog on the web.

http://www.blackburnreview.com/recon-rhode-island/

[Masterofreality]

Ah, the Good Old Days! From Pablo's old board:

UD arena to get $12.1M facelift -- NO JUSTICE! NO PEACE!, 14:57:48 11/13/01 Tue (NoHost/216.142.213.126)
Looks like our neighbors up north got a little jealous with our digs and decided to get a face lift for the arena. I hate UD and want them all to die a terrible death.

I have it on good authority that Skip Prosser disliked Dayton more than UC. The exact quote was: "UC is UC and they do not pretend to be anything else. UD is so sanctimonious and unbelievably arrogant. I would love to beat them twice a year." Obviously, he did not.

[coasterville95]

Who are these Flyers you speak of?

[waggy]

the more I think about it, though I don't believe UD will ever be considered seriously for Big East expansion

The only way GTown or St. Johns ever play in Dayton is if it's a NCAA play-in game. I think Omaha only got in because Marquette lead the charge.

[xubrew]

Why should we add anyone?? I'd rather get rid of a team than add more teams.

I think Dayton would actually be more of an asset than some of the teams that are already in the league (DePaul, Seton Hall) but then again so would just about anyone. I just don't want more than ten teams. I'd really be happier at nine.

I say we don't add anyone unless two teams leave.

[OTRMUSKIE]

Do you think GTown and Nova will eventually want out? They both inspire to be div 1 in football right?

[DC Muskie]

I think the saddest people on earth are Browns fans who went to Dayton. Jumping off a bridge would be an improvement for them.

[X-band '01]

Do you think GTown and Nova will eventually want out? They both inspire to be div 1 in football right?

Not Villanova. The Big East wanted them to upgrade to I-A and join the conference for football, but Nova said no because they didn't have the resources to do so.

[LadyMuskie]

Do you think GTown and Nova will eventually want out? They both inspire to be div 1 in football right?

Let's be honest, Georgetown and DeGoia pushed for and eventually created this "Catholic" league. I can't see them abandoning their baby.

[Musketeer_15]

I think the saddest people on earth are Browns fans who went to Dayton. Jumping off a bridge would be an improvement for them.

Hahaha easily one of the best posts I have read on here!

[LA Muskie]

Do you think GTown and Nova will eventually want out? They both inspire to be div 1 in football right?

Nope. Neither wants to be DI-A.

[LA Muskie]

Why should we add anyone?? I'd rather get rid of a team than add more teams.

I think Dayton would actually be more of an asset than some of the teams that are already in the league (DePaul, Seton Hall) but then again so would just about anyone. I just don't want more than ten teams. I'd really be happier at nine.

I say we don't add anyone unless two teams leave.
I'm with you. I love that it's a true H/A schedule. And I agree about DePaul and Seton Hall, but that's a cost of doing business for us. You can't really accept an invite to a party and then try to oust two of the hosts.

[muskienick]

I'm with you. I love that it's a true H/A schedule. And I agree about DePaul and Seton Hall, but that's a cost of doing business for us. You can't really accept an invite to a party and then try to oust two of the hosts.

And they are still better than Duquesne and Fordham (among others still in the A-10).

[Masterofreality]

I think the saddest people on earth are Browns fans who went to Dayton. Jumping off a bridge would be an improvement for them.

What would be appropriate would be jumping off the I 480 bridge.

[X-band '01]

Who are these Flyers you speak of?

A team that has lost to URI six straight times (home AND away).

[nuts4xu]

A team that has lost to URI six straight times (home AND away).

They have to one of the few schools in the nation that can make this claim. Congrats to the flyers on a new level of suck!

[Xavgrad08]

Dayton is currently down 15 to Rhode Island with about 9 minutes left in the second half.

[kyxu]

Dayton to the Big East!!

[The_Mack_Pack]

Dayton sure is good at raising the conferences RPI in the non-con then going 8-8 in conference. I mean, it's absolutely crazy how this happens every single year.

[xudash]

URI IS EITHER TEASING DAYTON INTO THIS LOSS OR THEY JUST PLAY STUPIDLY.

The rams are allowing Dayton to hang around. However, it is Dayton, so I don't see them coming back from here.

[Masterofreality]

3rd loss in a row, 1-4 in the A-10 and 13-7 overall.

The annual Cryer tank job is in full effect. Ha.....Ha............Ha.

[xubrew]

Dayton sure is good at raising the conferences RPI in the non-con then going 8-8 in conference. I mean, it's absolutely crazy how this happens every single year.

That's one way of looking at it. They probably do more for the Atlantic Ten than anyone else in the conference.

[GuyFawkes38]

I find myself somehow buying into the Dayton hype year after year. I thought Pierre and Sanford were finally the skilled offensive pieces that Dayton lacked for the past 10 years. And Sibert would be a nice addition. But this is the same Dayton squad (perhaps better offensively than Gregory's squads, but will not step up in conference play).

[Masterofreality]

Here's the deal.

At the season's start, udump starts and plays fine until there are some scouting reports done. Then after the opposition gets a book on how their players tendencies are, Kid Yuma can't adjust back. They never win any games because of bench coaching. They run the same stuff over..and over...and over. The only change is the faces.

Maybe the problem is that they don't hire coaches who can see over their players' shoelaces.

[xubrew]

Their players tendencies seem to involve getting out of the way so as to not disrupt the other team from getting the rebound.

[xudash]

Their players tendencies seem to involve getting out of the way so as to not disrupt the other team from getting the rebound.

Ha! I like it.

[LadyMuskie]

Their players tendencies seem to involve getting out of the way so as to not disrupt the other team from getting the rebound.

That's called "classy rebounding"! Can't be classy unless you're uber-polite.

[The_Mack_Pack]

That's called "classy rebounding"! Can't be classy unless you're uber-polite.

I hear they then shake hands with the opposing player.

[xudash]

If misery loves company, then the short drive between Dayton and Indianapolis may come into play here. Dayton and Butler fans are melting down at about the same pace. They could go after a twofer deal for counseling services.

[Masterofreality]

Their players tendencies seem to involve getting out of the way so as to not disrupt the other team from getting the rebound.

Yeah...and that too.

[DC Muskie]

Blown out at Rhode Island. Great job Archie!

[vee4xu]

So much for Archie's year-end plan to exit dayton. Looks like that's on hold for another year. Unless, of course he wants to take a MAC job. Which, frankly may be a step up.

[Musketeer_15]

So much for Archie's year-end plan to exit dayton. Looks like that's on hold for another year. Unless, of course he wants to take a MAC job. Which, frankly may be a step up.

There are plenty of programs out there that would take Archie. Seeing how Brian Gregory was hired by GT then Archie can easily be hired by another bottom feeder in a big conference.

[Masterofreality]

There are plenty of programs out there that would take Archie. Seeing how Brian Gregory was hired by GT then Archie can easily be hired by another bottom feeder in a big conference.

NOOOOOOOO! Let Midget II please stay...

[OTRMUSKIE]

I am not sure how anybody could take a Dayton coach. Going 8-8 in the A-10 and making it to the NIT every year is not progress it's just expected. It would be one thing to take Fordham and make the NIT but for a coach to take Dayton to the NIT is regression not progression. However we have seen this before with Sean Miller and maybe Archie will win 4 games in 4 days and turn the program around. However UD will need to qualify for the A-10 first unless that rule is gone now. On another note they have a great thread going on at UDPRIDE titled WE ARE A JOKE. Good reading! http://udpride.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24542

[X-band '01]

OTR, this is a better thread:

http://udpride.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24532

"C'mon...they do have some value. After all, there is a coupon on the back of the ticket. On second thought, I should say there is a UD ticket on back of the coupon."

[waggy]

Can an entire thread be put on ignore?

[vee4xu]

Can an entire thread be put on ignore?

One can only wish.

[waggy]

I'm gonna tap my slippers together 3 times.

[Muskie1000]

I am not sure how anybody could take a Dayton coach. Going 8-8 in the A-10 and making it to the NIT every year is not progress it's just expected. It would be one thing to take Fordham and make the NIT but for a coach to take Dayton to the NIT is regression not progression. However we have seen this before with Sean Miller and maybe Archie will win 4 games in 4 days and turn the program around. However UD will need to qualify for the A-10 first unless that rule is gone now. On another note they have a great thread going on at UDPRIDE titled WE ARE A JOKE. Good reading! http://udpride.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24542

I saw an advertisement for the A-10 tourney saying that every team would be represented for the first time in 9 years so yes they will be there.

[xubrew]

I saw an advertisement for the A-10 tourney saying that every team would be represented for the first time in 9 years so yes they will be there.

Yeah. There will be five opening round games as they go from 13 teams down to eight. Quintuple headers are rare, but they're kinda fun.

I've actually really enjoyed the Atlantic Ten this year. UMass, SLU, VCU and GW are solid teams. All appear to be safely inside the bubble. Richmond was sort of disappointing early on, but they keep improving and I think they're going to be in the discussion by the time it's all over. La Salle is another team that's been playing well. They blew it in double overtime against VCU, but prior to that they'd win five straight. They're a long way from the bubble because they were awful in November and December, and they really needed that game yesterday, but if they keep winning at that clip they may get close to it.

I think the Atlantic Ten definitely gets four in, and will have at least one more (and maybe two more) in the discussion. Dayton won't be among them. They're the inverse of La Salle. They were good throughout December and have been awful in league play.

It's a fun league to watch, though, and it should be a fun tournament.

[X-band '01]

When the Big East had 13 teams, they had 5 opening round games on the 1st day - the first tip was around 11 AM. I think the morning session had 3 games and then a conventional 7 PM doubleheader at night. I'd imagine the setup in Brooklyn will be the same.

[xubrew]

Yep. 11, 1:30, 4, 6:30, and 9pm tips. All one session

[Tu 4 MVP]

The Cryers missing out of the tournament again reminds me of this gem:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bUMjK2HjZz8

Dayton really needs the tournament to expand so they can get a shot in the dance

[XUFan09]

Richmond was sort of disappointing early on, but they keep improving and I think they're going to be in the discussion by the time it's all over.

I went to the Richmond-St. Joseph's game on Saturday, which was a lot of fun to watch. I'm glad we don't have to face Halil Kanacevic in conference anymore, because it would suck worrying about matchup problems possibly leading to a loss to a mediocre team. On Richmond, two thoughts:

1) They look pretty good and have the means to be a tournamne team this year. The way they were playing, I could see them being a lower seed in the Dance.

2) Their remodeled arena is really nice. Small (maybe 6,000), but it makes for a really cool atmosphere, with clubhouses on the four corners of the upper concourse. There are no upper-level seats, just one big section, which makes any seat in the house pretty good.

[XUFan09]

The Cryers missing out of the tournament again reminds me of this gem:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bUMjK2HjZz8

Dayton really needs the tournament to expand so they can get a shot in the dance

That. Edit. Is. Awesome.

[BMoreX]

The Cryers missing out of the tournament again reminds me of this gem:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bUMjK2HjZz8

Dayton really needs the tournament to expand so they can get a shot in the dance

How have I never seen this before.

[waggy]

How have I never seen this before.

Me either. But you know what's awesome?.. The guy has just one video. Made an account for that one vid.

[Muskie1000]

that musta run that vid about a million times last year during the NCAA tournament. My guess, you were flipping between games and missed it.

[Lamont Sanford]

That was awesome! Thanks for sharing!

[X-man]

Very very funny. Obviously the cryers' aura as losers extends far beyond this humble board.

[XUFan09]

that musta run that vid about a million times last year during the NCAA tournament. My guess, you were flipping between games and missed it.

I guess you missed the Dayton inclusion. The guy took that commercial and added the clip of Dayton fans.

Sent from my DROID RAZR HD using Tapatalk

[Muskie1000]

oh no, I didn't notice that. I'll have to rewatch it

[XUFan09]

oh no, I didn't notice that. I'll have to rewatch it

Lol it was well done, almost like they were meant to be there.

Sent from my DROID RAZR HD using Tapatalk

[GuyFawkes38]

Dayton manages to lose to St Joes at home. Yikes. Good times.

I really thought Archie was a great hire (of course he still might be). But I think it is easy to overrate assistant coaches. Archie happened to be an assistant to some great coaches at some great programs.

[xudash]

Dayton manages to lose to St Joes at home. Yikes. Good times.

I really thought Archie was a great hire (of course he still might be). But I think it is easy to overrate assistant coaches. Archie happened to be an assistant to some great coaches at some great programs.

I'm enjoying this thoroughly.

Those tools on UDPride are Chernobyling.

[vee4xu]

I'm enjoying this thoroughly.

Those tools on UDPride are Chernobyling.

Dash, I wasn't paying much attention to grammar during our days on Victory Parkway. Is Chernobyling a verb? :whiteflag:

[bobbiemcgee]

1-5 in A-10. How did they beat Fordham? Also Bona bounces UMass.

[toledodan]

1-5 in A-10. How did they beat Fordham? Also Bona bounces UMass.


twisting a line from a xavier hater over on pride... the a-10 suck factor in full effect

[Muskie1000]

It just never gets old does it? :laugh:

[throwbackmuskie]

What was all the noise last year about Udump to the Big East?

[ammtd34]

I'm assuming not many people saw the game since it was on WHIO in Dayton. St. Joe's won on a banked in fadeaway 3 with a second to go. Hilarious.

[94GRAD]

Blackburn Review has done it again, here's a flow chart to tell if ud won last night.

http://www.blackburnreview.com/did-ud-win/

[vee4xu]

What was all the noise last year about Udump to the Big East?

If for some reason the BE is looking at certain schools' 2013-14 season as some bell weather for future expansion, ud is having a really bad performance.

[bobbiemcgee]

Chronicling 10 yrs. of X domination and Flyer futility:

http://www.udpride.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24590

[SlimKibbles]

Chronicling 10 yrs. of X domination and Flyer futility:

http://www.udpride.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24590

I love the analysis posted in that thread. Always find stuff like that fascinating.

[paulxu]

What is really fascinating is that more than one poster, upon reading that article, wanted him to go back and publish attendance figures along with his stats.
As if they had some direct correlation to the W/L information. That is fascinating.

[XUFan09]

One poster thought that one thing influencing this trend was that other A10 teams view UD Arena as "The Big Arena" in the A10. Um, no.

[Masterofreality]

Blackburn Review has done it again, here's a flow chart to tell if ud won last night.

http://www.blackburnreview.com/did-ud-win/

Jordan Sibert sure seems animated and pissed that the dump lost.....NOT! I swear if he was a Xavier player with that "oh well...we lost...I guess we'll just see what happens next time" attitude he'd be roasted all over MuskieLand.

By the way. If you scroll further down in the Blackburn Review articles and read the "Recon St. Joes" piece, it has some really pertinent stuff about the state of both schools. Here is one quote, but there is more.

"I can’t imagine what it would be like to be a St. Joseph’s fan 10 years removed from their Elite Eight appearance. Dayton fans relished their one tournament victory *in the past twenty years and the school proudly displays the program’s NIT title from 2009 on the center-court scoreboard. The Hawks were a play away from the Final Four. Yet, it’s now 2014 and both programs are spinning their wheels in the same deep ditch. Certainly SJU fans didn’t expect to be riding with UD in the slow lane at this point of Martelli’s career."

[danaandvictory]

While the results of that exercise are amusing, using raw non-conference winning percentage to establish a baseline for a program's performance is stupid. Dayton's gaudy non-con winning percentage has a great deal to do with playing a billion home games against garbage every year and should not be taken as a sign that their teams are necessarily better than what they produce in A-10 play.

While Dayton has had teams (particularly Brian Roberts's senior year) that dramatically underachieved their talent level, a lot of those teams that went 13-2, 7-9 A-10 were actually not very good to begin with.

[bobbiemcgee]

Guy must be clinically depressed to spend that much time on a post that basically sez "Dayton sucks" and has for a while. Plus he provides an email function so you can readily send it out to all your UD buddies to shut them up forever.

Also makes a compelling argument as to why we shouldn't schedule them anymore.

[LadyMuskie]

That statistical analysis is interesting.

I don't watch ud basketball unless I'm feeling like I deserve to be punished for something, but I've often that the reason ud does well in the non-con (even against strong opponents) is because their opponents don't understand the value of destroying the flyers mentally and then using that mental weakness against them. There have been plenty of years when ud should have won at Cintas. Why didn't they? Because they're mentally weak. And that's why they suck in the A10.

Conference play is tough in a lot of leagues because you get to know your conference foes so well and their varying styles of play. Most teams adapt and play to their own strengths thereby winning the games they're supposed to win. But dayton consistently allows themselves to be beat at the mental game. They come to play armed with excuses for reasons they lost and the game hasn't even been played yet. They've had some decent enough talent over the years - guys that X recruited even. But, mentally the entire university is just weak. It's the reason the fans blame the refs and whine about classiness. You can fudge mental toughness against teams you don't meet on a consistent basis, but you can't fool those closest to you. The other A10 teams, Xavier more than anyone else, exploit ud's lack of mental toughness and thereby the lack of great players. If you're mentally weak and you only have mediocre talent, you're going to go 75-75 in conference play.

[danaandvictory]

But, mentally the entire university is just weak.

Wow. That is incredibly dumb.

[LadyMuskie]

Wow. That is incredibly dumb.

Why? Maybe I shouldn't have said university, but instead used the term program. Nevertheless, the fans, the coaches, the admins, they are all experts in making excuses as to why they can't win basketball games. Take the Cintas streak. For years, even before ud rolled into Cincinnati, the reporters that cover the Flyers, the fans and coaches would start chirping about how so and so was sick with the flu, this person had this wrong with them, the refs are against ud, and on and on. That way, when they lost, they'd have all these reason lined up as to why. They consistently blame others for what's wrong instead of working to make it better. The mental weakness permeates all facets of that program, from the fans to the AD. We joke about their cries of "wait till next year", but while they sat by and accept mediocre season after mediocre season, other programs that are advancing demand change to make things better. Fan bases can exert change, but ud's fanbase just sits idly by. There's no striving by anyone associated with that program to do the hard things that bring success, and they're so obvious about it that the other teams in their league exploit it easily. Mental. Weakness.

[Masterofreality]

From the Blackburn Review Today. Stay Classy udump.


"This weekend in Flyer country two bad things happened.

First, there was an inbred from Xavier on campus. In typical Xavier fashion the musketeer got cocky. He was the target of numerous “F—K XAVIER” chants. Finally, the Xavier student snapped and smashed a beer bottle over the head of a UD student. Xavier is apparently determined to beat UD this year in whatever sense possible.

Secondly, a freshman guy living in Marycrest punched a girl in the face and broke her jaw. The Chris Brown of UD is reportedly in jail. The police officer asked “Do you have any weapons on you?” The student responded with “Yes, I have a pistol, but you’re going to have to suck my cock to get it.” As you can imagine this did not help the situation.

Stay Drunk. Stay Stupid."

[bobbiemcgee]

Smartest guy on UD Pride:



"All that happened tonight, was the same thing that has happened the last 25 years or so.

Dayton had a bubble game on the road and lost.

Xavier had a bubble game on the road and won.'

[LA Muskie]

Smartest guy on UD Pride:



"All that happened tonight, was the same thing that has happened the last 25 years or so.

Dayton had a bubble game on the road and lost.

Xavier had a bubble game on the road and won.'

I like it, although we actually haven't played all that many "bubble" games in the last 10 years. We've mostly been solidly in (or out).

[OH.X.MI]

Over under on the Cryer faithful booing Christy Mack tonight when she is inducted into their hall of fame tonight?

[Filthy Conservative]

Well, what happened?

Sent from my M886 using Tapatalk 2

[GoMuskies]

Their ladies were upset by Fordham in the A-10 finals this morning. Shucks.

[Milhouse]

http://www.udpride.com/forums/showthread.php?t=25484

just a great read. Hilarious.

[BBC 08]

Wait, what does the Archbishop and Archdioceses have to do with us not playing them?

[bjf123]

Wow. That guys needs to seek professional help.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[BandAid]

Wow...

I'm trying to think of words to describe...

and I can't...

[nkymuskie]

Why were you checking UDpride in early May?

[XUFan09]

Why were you checking UDpride in early May?

That's the best time to check it. They're starting to make their predictions about "next year."

Yes, I realize this year they actually did something commendable after getting an at-large seed, but I wonder how many of them think it's the beginning of a new dynasty.

[blobfan]

That was sad. Really, really sad. And my understanding X did not choose to end the rivalry. There's just no point in playing at UD arena.

[XUFan09]

That was sad. Really, really sad. And my understanding X did not choose to end the rivalry. There's just no point in playing at UD arena.

Eh, I'm with XUBrew that they would be a good road game on the schedule and a great line on the resume if Xavier won (also, a very understandable loss in the Committee's eyes if it happened). As UD plays out of their minds against Xavier, though, there are probably more winnable road games of similar quality than one at UD Arena. I just hope we schedule one of those games, and I'm not sure if we will.

That rant was crazy though.

[XUFan09]

Concerning the apparent "blocking" that Xavier is doing against UD's inclusion in the Big East, I've heard nothing more than baseless speculation on that front. My understanding is that Xavier is neither promoting UD nor trying to prevent them from joining the Big East. The Flyers' recent history, absent this season, is what is holding them back, and even this season they had a low at-large seed and weren't too far from not making the tournament.

They have everything else going for them except for something that might be important: consistent winning.

[Milhouse]

Why were you checking UDpride in early May?


Straight boredom son. It's the offseason isn't it?

[waggy]

The whole X blocking UD thing is such manufactured bullshit. Nova, GTown, St. John's... they ain't never gonna willingly step foot in Dayton. That's just the cold hard truth.

[XUFan09]

The whole X blocking UD thing is such manufactured bullshit. Nova, GTown, St. John's... they ain't never gonna willingly step foot in Dayton. That's just the cold hard truth.

I think Marquette is actually one of the stronger opponents of that idea, along with Georgetown. But yeah, Nova and St. John's aren't exactly going to support it either.

[X-man]

Wow. That guy needs to seek professional help.




He had to have been blind drunk when he posted that rant. But I agree with your sentiment; he DOES need help because he posted that drunken screed at 10 in the morning! Furthermore, he edited it in the early afternoon! Truly this guy has a major drinking problem.

[Masterofreality]

That was sad. Really, really sad. And my understanding X did not choose to end the rivalry. There's just no point in playing at UD arena.

Actually, it was really hilarious. Props to Brew for walking into the maelstrom, standing tall and making those cretins look silly.

They just got through a season of all of their lifetimes....and all they can obsess about is Xavier. Yes, hilarious.

[PMI]

I don't have much interest in reading a melon humper message board, but if anyone's complaining about Xavier not helping the undeserving little brother get into the Big East, didn't they do the exact same thing to us when they left for the Great Midwest or whatever it was? And didn't we, in turn, vouch for them to get into the A10 once they found themselves left at the alter in that conference? Perhaps one of the older fans could help me with those details, but if that's how it went down, fuck em. We're supposed to always help them out of a jam, but when the shoe's on the other foot, they can say screw us? Not how it works, humpers.

[paulxu]

Barely half the people in the US were born when Jimmy Carter was president.

[throwbackmuskie]

Ah dayton, if Youngstown is the armpit of Ohio, dayton is the butthole

[paulxu]

Since the Cryers are too scared to let people post on their board, I'm going to answer you here Brew.
You posted:


But, their president is Marquette's president's boss. That's why they're in. Anyone who says it is for any other reason isn't being honest with themselves.

I'll be dishonest I guess. He's only one member of the board. There were 6 other schools voting. Fox had a voice for market penetration. I think there are a lot of other reasons Creighton may have been selected, including institutional fit. But most of all I think they were a different media market, in a different state...things Dayton will never have.

[XUFan09]

Since the Cryers are too scared to let people post on their board, I'm going to answer you here Brew.
You posted:



I'll be dishonest I guess. He's only one member of the board. There were 6 other schools voting. Fox had a voice for market penetration. I think there are a lot of other reasons Creighton may have been selected, including institutional fit. But most of all I think they were a different media market, in a different state...things Dayton will never have.

Yup. Everyone also knew they would be good this year, and a good year plus a jump to the Big East could be just the ticket to raise their program to a new level. I just wish they had made it to the second weekend.

[MADXSTER]

Since the Cryers are too scared to let people post on their board, I'm going to answer you here Brew.
You posted:



I'll be dishonest I guess. He's only one member of the board. There were 6 other schools voting. Fox had a voice for market penetration. I think there are a lot of other reasons Creighton may have been selected, including institutional fit. But most of all I think they were a different media market, in a different state...things Dayton will never have.

It's the same reason Xavier would never get into the BE while UC was there. It really wouldn't make any sense.

[xubrew]

Since the Cryers are too scared to let people post on their board, I'm going to answer you here Brew.
You posted:



I'll be dishonest I guess. He's only one member of the board. There were 6 other schools voting. Fox had a voice for market penetration. I think there are a lot of other reasons Creighton may have been selected, including institutional fit. But most of all I think they were a different media market, in a different state...things Dayton will never have.

Well, the now former Marquette president was also at Georgetown for six years, so there is that connection too. There may be other reasons Creighton COULD have been selected if you had to make an argument for them, but those weren't the reasons they actually WERE selected. Marquette didn't start pushing for them because of the Omaha media market.

Fox already had a deal with Creighton, because they already had a deal with the MVC. As far as the overall industry of Fox Sports goes, adding Creighton really didn't give them any new furniture. they were just moving around the furniture they already had.

Why did they even add a tenth team to begin with?? They seemed settled on just going forward with nine initially.

If it were Fox's decision, why Creighton instead of SLU?? Why Creighton instead of Dayton (which is defined as another market)?? If it came down to Fox, why wouldn't they want to go after markets that they didn't already have??

So, they decided to go to ten, and the school they took was the only school that had a direct connection with another school in the league. That's not a coincidence.

I don't see how that's even controversial. It's like saying people who like the beach would prefer living in Florida instead over Colorado. Creighton got in because of politics. They would not have gotten in otherwise. We'd probably just be a nine team league right now. If it were ten teams, and it were up to Fox, it's very safe to say that it wouldn't have been Creighton.

[paulxu]

You've made their inter school connection the only reason for including Creighton.
I disagree. It may have been part of the equation (it probably always is) but I've seen nothing to indicate it was the "only" reason.

Why go to 10 teams? Because the trend in major conferences is an 18 game conference schedule that works out fine with 10. Also it balanced the east and west divisional alignment if that would be any benefit in travel, etc.

We may think of Dayton as a different media market, but it's still in the same state; and I think that makes a difference.
St Louis and Creighton may have been a toss up, and perhaps the personal contacts made a difference.

But they weren't the "only" reason...absent further information to the contrary.

[xubrew]

Paul, Dayton has different local stations and different cable providers. Fox and ESPN definitely think of it as a different market. I don't know why people seem to want to insist that it's not. In every single market share rating that is put together by anyone, Dayton is its own market.

Creighton is not who Fox wanted. That much I'm fairly certain of. For starters, Fox already had them.


To spell it out plainly, Marquette pushed for Creighton, and that's why they got in. It's my understanding that Marquette was really the only school that made a strong push for anyone, and their reasons for doing it are obvious. Had Marquette not pushed for them, then they would not have gotten in. Had Creighton's president not been on Marquette's board of trustees, then Marquette would not have pushed for them. So, yes, I think that's pretty much the only reason. At the very least, it is the key reason they got in.

[XUFan09]

That might be Marquette's sole motivation, but the other members would have had to have other reasons to like the addition besides Marquette's desire. That's why I argue that the fact that Creighton was going to have a good year and would benefit from the conference boost played a part.

[xubrew]

When I look at Creighton, this is what I see...

They have a coach who was okay at Northern Iowa and Iowa State, but not great. They were very good the last two years, but that success relied on an all-American player that happened to be the coach's son. Under no other circumstance would Creighton, or McDermott, been able to land a player like that. Also, under no other circumstances, would a player like that have opted to stay in school and play without a scholarship. In the grand scheme of things, I think it is very safe to say that Creighton's success relied on circumstances that are not normal and likely will not happen again. It was not the result of a program that had built itself up to that point, and that has shown signs that they'll be able to remain nationally relevant.

Creighton had good teams before, but it was under Dana Altman, who isn't there anymore. McDermott is no Altman. Not even close. I'm thinking the next time Creighton is nationally relevant, much less consistently nationally relevant, it will be with a different coach.

As good as they were under Altman, I believe they still only had one out right first place finish, in the Missouri Valley, dating back to 2002. The last time Creighton made it past the round of 32, there weren't even 32 teams in the field, and the #2 team in the nation was left out of the NCAA Tournament because there were no at-large bids either. They are, by far, historically the least accomplished program in the conference. That even includes the programs that currently suck.

I know Creighton was good the last two years. But, if you stop and look at why they were good, you should see that it is the result of a very irregular circumstance that they had never had before, and will likely never have again. There are absolutely no signs whatsoever that they'll be able to maintain that.

Who should the league have added instead?? How about no one?? Nine is enough. It's actually ideal if you take into account that having two extra OOC games greatly collectively benefits a league that wins the percentage of OOC games that the Big East does. (This is the only fact that MHettel and I seem to agree on) But, if the league decided they wanted a tenth team (for whatever reason), why them?? I know that Marquette pushed hard for them. My impression (not knowledge, but just the impression) is that everyone else kind of just want along with it because they felt it was good diplomacy.

Ultimately, I don't care THAT much about it, but ultimately I don't think the league is any better with them than it would have been without them, and that we now have ten members because we took on an extra one that will ultimately end up taking way more than they bring.

Can anyone honestly say that Creighton would still be in the league if their president wasn't on Marquette's board of trustees?? If SLU's president was on the Georgetown BOT, then SLU would probably also be in right now.

[GoMuskies]

If Creighton is in the league basically solely because MU's pres is on the Creighton BOT, then we've got much larger issues in the league than the presence of Creighton. That would indicate extreme, extreme incompetence on behalf of the powers that be in the league.

[RealDeal]

Creighton got in because of their great fan support, if dayton had better fans they would be in. True story.

[waggy]

Dayton didn't get invited cause they suck at everything. How hard is that to understand? A thesis is not needed.

[xubrew]

If Creighton is in the league basically solely because MU's pres is on the Creighton BOT, then we've got much larger issues in the league than the presence of Creighton. That would indicate extreme, extreme incompetence on behalf of the powers that be in the league.

Something like that. The league is still in the process of putting itself together from an administrative standpoint. That should help increase the level of competence and stability. At least I think it will. Then again, maybe not.


Creighton got in because of their great fan support, if dayton had better fans they would be in. True story.

Dayton isn't in for the same reason Detroit isn't in. None of the original C7 really wanted them. I think the only reason they were brought up at all was because of Fox. Creighton is in because one of the C7 very much wanted them. True story. If UD's president were on the Providence or Saint John's BOT, I bet they'd be in, though.

[LA Muskie]

Of the three new Big East members only one was projected to finish in the Top 3 with an All American candidate. Can you name which program?

I'm sure politics had something to do with it, and a new conference is a long play, but having a new team like that to kick off an essentially new conference and network couldn't hurt. I very much doubt Fox put up a fight. And I haven't heard a word from any of my contacts at FS1 to indicate they were in any way opposed.

Also, they do consider Dayton to be a separate market. For those who disagree, please just accept that. It's verifiably (and verified) true.

[bobbiemcgee]

Creighton was a great choice. Top 10 in attendance every year. Made the dance 10 of the last 15 yrs. Huge hometown support for all sports. Great fans that travel. Dayton? Think they are right where they need to be in the A-10. They should win it every year now that the better teams have moved on. 6th again ain't gonna get it. Happens every yr. Can't even come close to winning the A-10 on a consistent basis. Recruiting? Apparently nobody is interested in playing for the the team that had a good march. Recruit after recruit reject their offers. Why? It's Dayton. Establish a winning tradition and check back in 10 yrs. And stop whining, do the work.

[xubrew]

Of the three new Big East members only one was projected to finish in the Top 3 with an All American candidate. Can you name which program?

I'm sure politics had something to do with it, and a new conference is a long play, but having a new team like that to kick off an essentially new conference and network couldn't hurt. I very much doubt Fox put up a fight. And I haven't heard a word from any of my contacts at FS1 to indicate they were in any way opposed.

Also, they do consider Dayton to be a separate market. For those who disagree, please just accept that. It's verifiably (and verified) true.

Yes, Creighton was picked to finish in the top three last year. VCU and Wichita (if the Big East really wanted to go that far west) would have also been picked to finish in the top three last year. Unlike Creighton, they would have also been picked to finish in the top three next year, and probably the year after that, and the year after that.

I just don't see it with Creighton. They're more like the Murray State team from a few years back that had one really strong NBA caliber player, and that got really hot and ranked really high for one season, but had no real staying power when it came to remaining relevant on the national scene.

I agree that there wasn't much resistance on the part of Fox, but they weren't a team that Fox particularly really wanted either. I just don't think they cared either way. Since you know people at FS1, would you agree with me in saying that there was a team that Fox did kinda want, and that it wasn't Creighton?? To be fair, no one else in the original C7 was all that excited about them, so I think Fox was the only reason this team got any mention at all.

FWIW, given the choice between Wichita, VCU, Creighton and one the teams Fox kinda wanted not not having any of them, I'd still rather it just be a league of nine. But, if I had to pick one of them, it wouldn't have been Creighton. I'd have probably gone with VCU. I know they're a public school, but I believe there was a time when Pitt was the only public school in the Big East, and many consider that to be the conference's golden age.

[LA Muskie]

Yes, Creighton was picked to finish in the top three last year. VCU and Wichita (if the Big East really wanted to go that far west) would have also been picked to finish in the top three last year. Unlike Creighton, they would have also been picked to finish in the top three next year, and probably the year after that, and the year after that. Probably true. But neither fits the profile that the C7 was looking for.


I just don't see it with Creighton. They're more like the Murray State team from a few years back that had one really strong NBA caliber player, and that got really hot and ranked really high for one season, but had no real staying power when it came to remaining relevant on the national scene. I don't think that's entirely fair. I think you were searching for an analogous situation and couldn't really find one. There's no guarantee that Creighton will consistently perform in the upper third (or even half) of the conference. But with its support, its facilities, and its new profile, you can't assume it won't. Creighton was #10 when there were only 9 obvious choices. As such, it is going to be a debatable selection.


I agree that there wasn't much resistance on the part of Fox, but they weren't a team that Fox particularly really wanted either. I just don't think they cared either way. Since you know people at FS1, would you agree with me in saying that there was a team that Fox did kinda want, and that it wasn't Creighton?? To be fair, no one else in the original C7 was all that excited about them, so I think Fox was the only reason this team got any mention at all. I'm aware of at least 3 schools that Fox was particularly interested in -- each of which was discounted for very different reasons. I'm not sure the degree to which the C7 was or was not interested in any of them, so I don't know which one in particular you are referring to.


FWIW, given the choice between Wichita, VCU, Creighton and one the teams Fox kinda wanted not not having any of them, I'd still rather it just be a league of nine. But, if I had to pick one of them, it wouldn't have been Creighton. I'd have probably gone with VCU. I know they're a public school, but I believe there was a time when Pitt was the only public school in the Big East, and many consider that to be the conference's golden age. I too would have been fine with 9. But I suspect FS1 needed the additional inventory. Being at 10 also gives some degree of insurance in case a school ever leaves (although I don't see any of the 10 going anywhere at this point). If the only thing that mattered was performance on the basketball court, then I agree that VCU would have been the choice. But that's leaving out a number of important factors. Leave out geography (another important factor) and my choice would have been Gonzaga.

[paulxu]

I never said Dayton wasn't a different media market. It is.
But it's in the same state as Xavier...last I checked. I think that makes difference for Xavier...and Fox.
I also think VCU and Wichita struggle against the "institutional fit." Certainly not on the basketball court.

You might like 9 for an 16 game conference schedule, and it may set up mathematically better for RPI effect, but most big conferences have gone to an 18 game conference schedule I think...and Fox probably wanted that.

So I'm guessing it came down to St Louis and Creighton. Did the BOT thing make a diff? Probably. But that still wasn't the "only" factor.

[LA Muskie]

I never said Dayton wasn't a different media market. It is.
But it's in the same state as Xavier...last I checked. I think that makes difference for Xavier...and Fox.
I also think VCU and Wichita struggle against the "institutional fit." Certainly not on the basketball court.

You might like 9 for an 16 game conference schedule, and it may set up mathematically better for RPI effect, but most big conferences have gone to an 18 game conference schedule I think...and Fox probably wanted that.

So I'm guessing it came down to St Louis and Creighton. Did the BOT thing make a diff? Probably. But that still wasn't the "only" factor.
I agree with most of this. Except for the bold parts.

[xubrew]

I don't think that's entirely fair. I think you were searching for an analogous situation and couldn't really find one. There's no guarantee that Creighton will consistently perform in the upper third (or even half) of the conference. But with its support, its facilities, and its new profile, you can't assume it won't. Creighton was #10 when there were only 9 obvious choices. As such, it is going to be a debatable selection.

I guess it's a fair point that you don't think it's entirely fair. After thinking about it, my opinions are based more on what I think of Greg McDermott than what I think of Creighton specifically. The Northern Iowa teams he had between 03-06 were good, but I never felt they were as good as they should've been, and they never seemed to be good down the stretch (especially the last two years). They had good players, but later in the season as teams began to figure them out, they never made any adjustments. They would do well early on, make some waves nationally, and then completely die down the stretch and never get past the first round. Over and over and over again. He then went to Iowa State.....and did absolutely nothing.

So, now that he's at Creighton and his son isn't, and that the other upperclassmen who were largely recruited by Altman aren't there, I just think they're done. My feelings a year ago before the season even started was that Creighton better enjoy this, because this is it. I don't have any dislike toward McDermott. I just don't think he's anything better than an okay coach, and I don't see him keeping Creighton competitive or nationally relevant. I also don't think Creighton hired him for him.

You're right about Murray State not being the best analogy. If you've got a better one let me know. I just can't find too many examples of okay-not bad-but certainly not good coaches who have a son that's an all-American, and that has much better results than he's ever had before and will likely ever have again.


I agree with most of this. Except for the bold parts.

Me too.

[GoMuskies]

McDermott sucks as a coach more than Aaron Craft sucks as a PG.

Creighton will be fine....when McDermott is gone.

[GoMuskies]

BTW, having Creighton in the league is worth it just to have TD Ameritrade Park as a Big East venue. That place is ridiculous.

[LA Muskie]

You're right about Murray State not being the best analogy. If you've got a better one let me know. I just can't find too many examples of okay-not bad-but certainly not good coaches who have a son that's an all-American, and that has much better results than he's ever had before and will likely ever have again.
I never said I did! Seriously though, I'm hearing you on McDermott. And the fact that politics may have played a big part in things. But I also think the timing worked out extraordinarily well for them (they unquestionably were going to have a big year with a very marketable player in the inaugural season of the league and the network). Whether that was a good long-term play is another question.

[X-band '01]

Meanwhile, Dayton's Elite 8 run resulted in about $57,000 worth of overtime pay for UD and surrounding police:

Matt Norlander - CBSSports.com (http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/eye-on-college-basketball/24568025/daytons-elite-eight-run-cost-the-city-neary-60k-in-taxes)

The kicker here is that the university is not going to reimburse other police departments for riot control - namely Dayton, Kettering and Miami Township Police.



And no, I don't know what the cost was to reimburse grocery stores for all the watermelons that were violated.

[paulxu]

Xavier needs a guarantee game in Cincinnati on Friday, November 21, 2014. Great guarantee available and national television. Please email
mercuriom@xavier.edu if interested