Will Creighton....

[MADXSTER]

go the way of Miami(OH) once McDermott graduates? Kinda like when Wally World left, Miami was done.

[fellahmuskie]

Highly doubt it given the money and facilities they've got there.

[MADXSTER]

That is nothing new. They've always have had the facilities and the attendance.

[fellahmuskie]

Well, since their current arena opened in 2003, anyway. And they've been a much better program during that stretch than Miami (thanks in large part to McDermott, true enough). In any case, I think they're a program on the rise.

[XUFan09]

That is nothing new. They've always have had the facilities and the attendance.

They've been a solid program through multiple coaches, a good mid-major (as opposed to Xavier and Butler, who were good major programs in mid-major conferences). The way I see it, the Big East was striking while the iron is hot. They ensured that Creighton got great exposure in a really good year to set them up for future success with the Big East brand. Without the Big East brand, they would have gone back to getting tournament at-large bids now and then (never higher than 7) and going to at least the NIT more often than not, with CBI/CIT (ugh) bids in the other years. With the Big East brand and a really good team this year making them look good, they will make a big jump in recruiting, I think.

[BlueGuy]

go the way of Miami(OH) once McDermott graduates? Kinda like when Wally World left, Miami was done.

They will have to have a game plan, and coaching then. As of now, the plan is to shoot, shoot, and shoot again. Either that, or recruit the absolute best shooters in the world.


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[The_Mack_Pack]

Not only does Creighton lose McDermott but also Wragge, Manigat, and Gibbs (who was injured and didn't play today). They could definitely struggle next season but with their facilities and fan base I'm sure they'll be a solid club in most years.

[sirthought]

There were NBA-good players at Miami before Wally. Charlie Coles is to blame for changing that. Wally didn't sign to MU when Coles was the head coach. Big scorers don't want to play slow-down style of basketball. Yet, Coles coached for years because he was affordable and he won a healthy amount of games in the Mac.

There have been plenty of NBA-good players at Creighton before Greg McDermott. But they had coaches for years who operated high-scoring offenses. I don't see that changing.

Creighton:
Paul Silas
Kevin McKenna
Chad Gallagher
Benoit Benjamin
Rodney Buford
Anthony Tolliver
Kyle Korver

Miami's is less impressive, but there, nonetheless.
Ira Newble
Wally Szczerbiak
Ron Harper
Phil Lumpkin

[OTRMUSKIE]

Creighton will struggle next year but that program is set up for long term success. Remember this is Creighton not Dayton we are talking about. Creighton will be back strong in a few years.

[larkinforever]

They've been a solid program through multiple coaches, a good mid-major (as opposed to Xavier and Butler, who were good major programs in mid-major conferences). The way I see it, the Big East was striking while the iron is hot. They ensured that Creighton got great exposure in a really good year to set them up for future success with the Big East brand. Without the Big East brand, they would have gone back to getting tournament at-large bids now and then (never higher than 7) and going to at least the NIT more often than not, with CBI/CIT (ugh) bids in the other years. With the Big East brand and a really good team this year making them look good, they will make a big jump in recruiting, I think.

I'm afraid you may be overestimating the "big east brand"...
For better or for worse the rest of the college basketball world no longer views this as the real big east. It will take ranked teams and tourney success for the league to be considered one of the power conferences with the ACC, Big10, Big12, or Pac12.

[BlueGuy]

... It will take ranked teams and tourney success for the league to be considered one of the power conferences with the ACC, Big10, Big12, or Pac12.

I actually agree with you. I also think there are a few teams in this league that are built for March.

[XUFan09]

I'm afraid you may be overestimating the "big east brand"...
For better or for worse the rest of the college basketball world no longer views this as the real big east. It will take ranked teams and tourney success for the league to be considered one of the power conferences with the ACC, Big10, Big12, or Pac12.

I'm not over-estimating it, because I'm comparing it to the Missouri Valley Conference. It's a huge jump up from there, one that has already helped out Xavier a lot in recruiting, and their move from the A10 to the Big East wasn't nearly as significant as Creighton's from the MVC to the Big East.

Right now the Big East is getting considered as one of the power conferences, despite this being a weak year (Villanova is generally good, so this isn't a crazy year for them, but Marquette, Butler, and Georgetown are down), so I don't know where you're getting your info. ESPN isn't even trying to claim they aren't. Are they considered to be as strong as the old Big East? No, but that was regularly the best or second best conference. They're still one of 7 power conferences (along with the AAC). Now, if they want to maintain that standing, they need ranked teams and tourney success like you said.

[xubrew]

go the way of Miami(OH) once McDermott graduates? Kinda like when Wally World left, Miami was done.

I don't think it will be to that extreme. I think it'll be more along the lines of Saint Joe's after Jameer Nelson.

[vee4xu]

I'm afraid you may be overestimating the "big east brand"...
For better or for worse the rest of the college basketball world no longer views this as the real big east. It will take ranked teams and tourney success for the league to be considered one of the power conferences with the ACC, Big10, Big12, or Pac12.

So, I take it you are the king/queen of the basketball world to make such a comment? Where's your proof of such a statement your highness? A comment such as this one makes you seem more like jester.

[LA Muskie]

So, I take it you are the king/queen of the basketball world to make such a comment? Where's your proof of such a statement your highness? A comment such as this one makes you seem more like jester.

Really??? Seemed like a true (and fairly innocuous) comment to me. Hell before the season started that was probably the most common complaint on this board.

[XU-PA]

Miami post Wally still MAC
Creighton post McDermott Big East
Huge difference

[smileyy]

go the way of Miami(OH) once Korver graduates? Kinda like when Wally World left, Miami was done.

I can see them keeping their program going.

[sirthought]

So, I take it you are the king/queen of the basketball world to make such a comment? Where's your proof of such a statement your highness? A comment such as this one makes you seem more like jester.

It's actually the exact position the Big East is in. First year conferences, despite having teams with significant history, will never have the same esteem of those existing conferences which have achieved success in the state they're in. Commentators of college basketball everywhere would likely agree, IMO. It's just a process those in the Big East will have to work through, although I'm certain it won't take long.

Your tone in belittling the comment seems to be what's in jest.

[sirthought]

I don't think it will be to that extreme. I think it'll be more along the lines of Saint Joe's after Jameer Nelson.

Comparing these two schools' success after those players were concerned is surprisingly quite similar.

Miami reached the Sweet Sixteen with Wally in 1999. They later reached the tournament once in 2007. They had one more player, Ira Newble, play in the NBA after Wally. They were conference champions only one other season afterward in 2005. In 2007 they won their conference tournament to make the NCAAs.

St. Joseph's reached the Sweet Sixteen with Nelson and Delonte West in 2004. They later reached the tournament once in 2008. They had one more player, Ahmad Nivins, play in the NBA after Nelson and West. They were conference champions only one other season afterward in 2005.

Miami has had some bad teams the past couple years, but St. Joes hasn't been smashing either.

Creighton should be fine in any case, as they have had a fairly consistent win percentage. Since 1999 they've only had one season with fewer than 20 wins. I guess the new conference could test that, but still, this coach seems to be finding some talent.

[XUFan09]

On Holy Land of Hoops, a Creighton poster was arguing for their consistency, saying they have made 17 straight postseason appearances. What he failed to factor in was how little major programs care about the CBI and the CIT. Still, they have made the NCAA Tournament 9 times since 1999, and I suppose NIT appearances 2004, 2006, 2008, and 2009 are respectable down years.

[GoMuskies]

That's exactly 17 more years in a row than us for whatever it's worth.

[SlimKibbles]

Comparing these two schools' success after those players were concerned is surprisingly quite similar.

Miami reached the Sweet Sixteen with Wally in 1999. They later reached the tournament once in 2007. They had one more player, Ira Newble, play in the NBA after Wally. They were conference champions only one other season afterward in 2005. In 2007 they won their conference tournament to make the NCAAs.

St. Joseph's reached the Sweet Sixteen with Nelson and Delonte West in 2004. They later reached the tournament once in 2008. They had one more player, Ahmad Nivins, play in the NBA after Nelson and West. They were conference champions only one other season afterward in 2005.

Miami has had some bad teams the past couple years, but St. Joes hasn't been smashing either.

Creighton should be fine in any case, as they have had a fairly consistent win percentage. Since 1999 they've only had one season with fewer than 20 wins. I guess the new conference could test that, but still, this coach seems to be finding some talent.

They actually lost to Oklahoma St in the Elite Eight the day before X lost to Dook. I remember watching that game from a hotel bar in Hilton Head, SC.

[XUFan09]

That's exactly 17 more years in a row than us for whatever it's worth.

Yup. They did need a CBI and a CIT invite to maintain that streak though. Xavier just turned down those invites this past season and it wouldn't surprise me to hear that they had done the same in 2005. If Xavier did decline in 2005, then they can match Creighton with 17 straight postseason invites, just not 17 straight postseason appearances. Creighton didn't need the crappy tournaments until 2010 and 2011, though.

[X-band '01]

The CBI and CIT didn't exist back in 2005.

[Masterofreality]

I'm afraid you may be overestimating the "big east brand"...
For better or for worse the rest of the college basketball world no longer views this as the real big east. It will take ranked teams and tourney success for the league to be considered one of the power conferences with the ACC, Big10, Big12, or Pac12.

And just how many ranked teams do you want? Villanova and Creighton will be ranked this week and if X wins the next two, they will be as well.

[xavierj]

You can call the league whatever you want but so far I see packed arenas for the most part and super charged intense games all over the place. This is big time basketball. Night and day from the 500 people in high school gyms where people could care less in the A-10.

[danaandvictory]

The problem with the A-10 was never the other good teams (especially after the addition of SLU and then expansion with Butler and VCU), it was the fact that there were too many programs dragging the league down at the bottom. For example, the Big East has 2 teams (SH and DP) that are outside Pomeroy's Top 100. The A-10 has four programs outside the Top 100 this year, six last year, six in 2012, and TEN in 2011 (7 of them below 150, good God). That's a big percentage of conference games that are just garbage.

[kyxu]

Not that losing yesterday was pleasant, but it was a nice change of pace when losing a conference game yesterday did NOT drag down our RPI or completely kill our chances for an NCAA Tournament bid.

[vee4xu]

Well LA and Sir, I don't feel that way, so right there the whole world theory is shot. The issue is not the statement itself, but rather the extrapolation of personal opinion into a general global truism. That just isn't good logic and that kind of thing rankles me both here and in any other forum and any other topic. It just isn't accurate. If you both want to defend that kind of thing, hey that's you business and not for me to judge. But to me, if someone wants to make that kind of statement, fine. But, prove it!

[Muskie]

I would say Creighton has just a good of a shot as maintaining/improving their program as anyone else in the conference. This conference's reputation will be built with good conference games and results in March. We should all be rooting for the Big East conference in the Tournament. That's how the last Big East made its mark in the media. If the National Champion comes out of the Big East this year, that would be huge

[Titanxman04]

You can call the league whatever you want but so far I see packed arenas for the most part and super charged intense games all over the place. This is big time basketball. Night and day from the 500 people in high school gyms where people could care less in the A-10.

Absolutely. Each and every game is as intense as it can be. I think every team sees this league under a new light, and with it being it's first year, every program is trying to stake a claim as the new "program" of the "new Big East". It's going to be a fun time.

[nuts4xu]

Creighton will be fine, and has always been a tough team to play at their place. I see no reason for them to disappear in coming years. Dana Altman did a nice job before McDermott and they play in a huge arena that averages over 14k per home game. Omaha Nebraska would be a tough sell for recruits, but there is plenty of other selling points to bring recruits to Creighton.

[danaandvictory]

You can call the league whatever you want but so far I see packed arenas for the most part and super charged intense games all over the place. This is big time basketball. Night and day from the 500 people in high school gyms where people could care less in the A-10.

Seven of the other nine BE teams have access to home courts bigger than Cintas. That's pretty remarkable. The only smaller facilities are Hinkle (10,000) and the Prudential Center (9,800).

I believe Dayton and SLU are the only A-10 schools with larger-capacity arenas than Cintas.

[sirthought]

Well LA and Sir, I don't feel that way, so right there the whole world theory is shot. The issue is not the statement itself, but rather the extrapolation of personal opinion into a general global truism. That just isn't good logic and that kind of thing rankles me both here and in any other forum and any other topic. It just isn't accurate. If you both want to defend that kind of thing, hey that's you business and not for me to judge. But to me, if someone wants to make that kind of statement, fine. But, prove it!

I don't think that the Big East puts out a poor brand of basketball. I'm just saying that in the eyes of those who comment on it, the league has to work to get the esteem they use to have. I also don't think writers are really bashing the league. Quite the opposite. But there always seems to be this tone of "not what it was; it will take some time."

Here are three examples I found in no time at all.


Mike DeCourcy Sporting News, Tuesday, Jan 7, 2014

Was the Big East at its best in the 80s? Indeed. But it was the best league in the ‘10s, and now it’s no more. There still is a Big East, and it’s a fine basketball conference, but it’s not what it was—and not what it ought to be.


Adam Zagoria

In 2011, the Big East sent 11 teams to the Big Dance.

This year? Maybe they’ll send four or five.

Maybe.


Reid Foxgrave

Is the new Big East as good overall as the old Big East? Of course not. You lose national powers like Syracuse, Louisville, UConn, Pitt and Notre Dame, and there’s no way you’ll measure up to what you were, at least not right off the bat.

[GoMuskies]

In 2011 the Big East sent 11 teams to the Dance. That's a pretty fair standard to use against a conference with 10 teams...

[sirthought]

In 2011 the Big East sent 11 teams to the Dance. That's a pretty fair standard to use against a conference with 10 teams...

Ha! No one said it was fair!

[toledodan]

Creighton will be fine, and has always been a tough team to play at their place. I see no reason for them to disappear in coming years. Dana Altman did a nice job before McDermott and they play in a huge arena that averages over 14k per home game. Omaha Nebraska would be a tough sell for recruits, but there is plenty of other selling points to bring recruits to Creighton.

when i pulled onto 13th street in Omaha yesterday i told my daughter this place reminded me of dayton. she told me not to insult Omaha like that lol.

[LA Muskie]

And just how many ranked teams do you want? Villanova and Creighton will be ranked this week and if X wins the next two, they will be as well.
No we won't.

[LA Muskie]

Well LA and Sir, I don't feel that way, so right there the whole world theory is shot. The issue is not the statement itself, but rather the extrapolation of personal opinion into a general global truism. That just isn't good logic and that kind of thing rankles me both here and in any other forum and any other topic. It just isn't accurate. If you both want to defend that kind of thing, hey that's you business and not for me to judge. But to me, if someone wants to make that kind of statement, fine. But, prove it!
Vee, I'm pretty sure his point was that the press treats this as something different than the "old" Big East. They do. Because it is. It's not something you need to take offense with. It's just fact. Not everything is an affront to Muskiedom. But feel free to keep thinking it is.

[LA Muskie]

Creighton will be fine, and has always been a tough team to play at their place. I see no reason for them to disappear in coming years. Dana Altman did a nice job before McDermott and they play in a huge arena that averages over 14k per home game. Omaha Nebraska would be a tough sell for recruits, but there is plenty of other selling points to bring recruits to Creighton.
This. After watching yesterday's game I have absolutely no worries about Creighton's ability to compete in the Big East for years to come.

[LA Muskie]

I don't think that the Big East puts out a poor brand of basketball. I'm just saying that in the eyes of those who comment on it, the league has to work to get the esteem they use to have. I also don't think writers are really bashing the league. Quite the opposite. But there always seems to be this tone of "not what it was; it will take some time."
Exactly. The name is the same, but we still have to prove the product is equivalent. The conference lost Syracuse, UConn, Louisville, Pitt, Notre Dame and Cincinnati (among others). That's not a small change. That's a seismic shift.

Again, it's not an affront to the new Big East. But the world is smart enough to know that just because the name is the same doesn't mean the product is.

[ballyhoohoo]

Seven of the other nine BE teams have access to home courts bigger than Cintas. That's pretty remarkable. The only smaller facilities are Hinkle (10,000) and the Prudential Center (9,800).

I believe Dayton and SLU are the only A-10 schools with larger-capacity arenas than Cintas.

All state is larger. But I think try only put the lower bowl up for sale.

[StanleyOwnsYou]

You guys are all missing the point. It is not about how big of an arena you have (look at DePaul) or how well attended the games themselves are. The life blood of a college basketball program is your recruiting and staff relationships in that realm. Look at us, obviously we have been extraordinary lucky to have had the run with head coaches we have replaced, but a large part to why we were able to continue to maintain success is that we have had the ability to hire from within and not be set back 1 or 2 years in recruiting classes. Thad to Sean. Sean to Chris, all of this while the AAU circuit has blown up. Our coaches have done a phenomenal job keeping recruits interested and signed and not having to start over.

With that said, McDermott (Sr.) better enjoy it this year or really up his game on the trail because Creighton currently has only 2 3 stars (neither ranked in the top 200) signed to replace their departing players. While the tools may be in place for Creighton, they need to seriously pick up the recruiting if they are going to be competing with traditional powers who always get players like Nova, GTown as well as upstarts like us who have the 6th ranked class this year.

[X-ROX]

[QUOTE=StanleyOwnsYou;422692]You guys are all missing the point. It is not about how big of an arena you have (look at DePaul) or how well attended the games themselves are. The life blood of a college basketball program is your recruiting and staff relationships in that realm. Look at us, obviously we have been extraordinary lucky to have had the run with head coaches we have replaced, but a large part to why we were able to continue to maintain success is that we have had the ability to hire from within and not be set back 1 or 2 years in recruiting classes. Thad to Sean. Sean to Chris, all of this while the AAU circuit has blown up. Our coaches have done a phenomenal job keeping recruits interested and signed


It's all about the private jet.......

[vee4xu]

Vee, I'm pretty sure his point was that the press treats this as something different than the "old" Big East. They do. Because it is. It's not something you need to take offense with. It's just fact. Not everything is an affront to Muskiedom. But feel free to keep thinking it is.

Actually, I consider generalization without merit as a personal affront that has nothing to do with Muskiedom. So my sarcasm was aimed in that direction. It is an idiosyncratic pet peeve of mine. Some may consider it a character flaw. It won't debate either due to interpretational semantics.

[Kahns Krazy]

Creighton is in no way similar to Miami in the Wally years.

Miami has always been very underexposed and under supported. There is no media market in Oxford, so you are competing with UC, Xavier and Dayton for any kind of coverage. Creighton is smack in the middle of Omaha, a city roughly 40 times the size of Oxford, excluding students.

The MAC is and was a low mid major. Ohio made a Cinderella run a few years back, but the Mac has zero household names.

Creighton minus McDermott is probably closer to Xavier minus David West than Miami minus Wally.

[BandAid]

when i pulled onto 13th street in Omaha yesterday i told my daughter this place reminded me of dayton. she told me not to insult Omaha like that lol.

Ya, what the hell man?

[toledodan]

Ya, what the hell man?

don't worry after spending the entire day there i found out quickly it's nothing like dayton. enjoyed the visit and i hope to make it back to see the zoo and college baseball world series. everyone there was supper nice!

[GoMuskies]

don't worry after spending the entire day there i found out quickly it's nothing like dayton. enjoyed the visit and i hope to make it back to see the zoo and college baseball world series. everyone there was supper nice!

Definitely go back for the CWS. I went this past year to see Louisville, and it was definitely something worth doing. As you could certainly tell as you were walking into the basketball arena yesterday, the CWS venue is a fabulous baseball stadium. I'm just bummed that Xavier plays Creighton at home this year in baseball. I'd make the weekend trip to Omaha to watch Xavier play three in that stadium.

[BandAid]

don't worry after spending the entire day there i found out quickly it's nothing like dayton. enjoyed the visit and i hope to make it back to see the zoo and college baseball world series. everyone there was supper nice!

I was teasing. There are definitely pockets of Omaha that needs some work. The zoo is pretty darn legit, especially the indoor exhibits.