Butler @ Xavier (January 4, 2014) Game Thread

[paulxu]

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Xavier University Musketeers (11-3) vs. Butler Bulldogs (10-3)
Saturday, January 4, 2014 at 2:00 p.m. ET
The Cintas Center (10,250), Cincinnati, Ohio

Live Chat (http://www.chatzy.com/32573582761803)

Notes (http://www.goxavier.com/sports/m-baskbl/spec-rel/010314aaa.html)

Television: FOX Sports Net (Channel List (http://grfx.cstv.com/photos/schools/xavi/sports/m-baskbl/auto_pdf/2013-14/misc_non_event/FOXSportsNetInfo.pdf)), Mike Gleason (play-by-play) and Greg Kelser (analysis).

Radio: 55KRC-AM, play-by-play from Joe Sunderman (`79). Analysis by Byron Larkin (`88).

[paulxu]

Respect the streak.

[BMoreX]

Anybody know of an internet stream yet?

No FS Ohio on Comcast in Baltimore.

[kyxu]

Anybody know of an internet stream yet?

No FS Ohio on Comcast in Baltimore.

It's on FS Ohio and on "Fox Sports Net" which is whichever local Fox Sports affiliate in your area for the game and you may be able to find it there.

I live in the Detroit suburbs and do not get FS Ohio, but I have UVerse and am able to get the game on Fox Sports Detroit.

[BMoreX]

It's on FS Ohio and on "Fox Sports Net" which is whichever local Fox Sports affiliate in your area for the game and you may be able to find it there.

I live in the Detroit suburbs and do not get FS Ohio, but I have UVerse and am able to get the game on Fox Sports Detroit.

Thanks. I'll look into it. If anything, I'm sure a bar with DirecTv will have it.

[THRILLHOUSE]

It's on FS Ohio and on "Fox Sports Net" which is whichever local Fox Sports affiliate in your area for the game and you may be able to find it there.

I live in the Detroit suburbs and do not get FS Ohio, but I have UVerse and am able to get the game on Fox Sports Detroit.

Yeah should be available on most Fox Sports regional channels. Where I'm at it's available on the Fox Sports Texas affiliates.

[SM#24]

Based on my DirectTV guide, the game is on the following regional channels.

YES
FSN - Sports South, Sun Sports, Ohio, Detroit, North, North-Wisconsin, Midwest, Southwest, Arizona, West
ROOT - Pittsburgh, Rocky Mt., Northwest

[The_Mack_Pack]

There are a lot of odd matchups in this one just based on the size and skill set of the Butler players. Stain may have a tough time in this one defensively just because he'll have to guard out on the perimeter at times. This could be the type of game where Philmore really plays well. He puts up very good numbers against teams who guard him with equal sized, or smaller, players and Butler has no real shot blockers. Xavier should dominate the boards but Butler shoots a ton of threes which typically means long rebounds. Should be a fun game.

[Emp]

Butler has lost three games by a total of 7 points. I expect to see a Xavier -5/6 line, but this is going to be a dogfight. Butler has a book on every one of our plays and players, and play smart "Indiana" basketball. I'm looking forward to a great game. Make free throws!

[kyxu]

Everyone (mostly Xavier fans on this board) said Butler's program would fall off with Stevens leaving and Brandon Miller taking over that program. I didn't think that would happen, and have seen no signs of that happening thus far this season. They didn't lay down against Villanova. Hope our guys are ready, and I think they will be.

[XUFan09]

Everyone (mostly Xavier fans on this board) said Butler's program would fall off with Stevens leaving and Brandon Miller taking over that program. I didn't think that would happen, and have seen no signs of that happening thus far this season. They didn't lay down against Villanova. Hope our guys are ready, and I think they will be.

I don't think they'll be as good as they were under Stevens, because quite simply few can match him in coaching ability. That being said, I think they'll be regular tournament attendees, with some wins here and there and a Sweet 16 appearance now and then. Basically, what they were before Stevens.

[GoMuskies]

When did they go to the Sweet Sixteen before Stevens?

Completely forgot them beating Louisville in '03.

[The_Mack_Pack]

Butler will never fade away into mediocrity, there's just too much high school basketball talent in Indiana for that to happen. Brandon Miller seems like he'll be a solid coach as well.

Also, as much as I love beating Butler I've always respected their coaches and players. (Besides Matt "The flopper" Howard).

[GoMuskies]

I liked Howard because our coaches liked Howard enough that they desperately wanted him to play at Xavier. He'd probably be one of our all-time favorties (and one of Butler's least favorites) had he chosen us over Butler.

[xubrew]

Butler has lost three games by a total of 7 points. I expect to see a Xavier -5/6 line, but this is going to be a dogfight. Butler has a book on every one of our plays and players, and play smart "Indiana" basketball. I'm looking forward to a great game. Make free throws!

...and two of those losses were to legit top ten teams.

I was pretty underwhelmed with Butler right out of the gate, but I must admit that they're better than I thought, and some of their "underwhelming" wins (IE Princeton) turned out to not be so underwhelming after all. It's unfortunate that they don't have a big win on their profile because I think their team is better than what their profile indicates. They're good.

[RealDeal]

I see Martin getting most of the time guarding Dunham, some Semaj and some Dee. The Stain Train will have to get out on his man.

[ammtd34]

I think Semaj gets the Dunham assignment.

[RealDeal]

I think Semaj gets the Dunham assignment.

Yeah, that would be ideal but what if he picks up a quick foul? Do we want him on the bench for a good portion of the first half?

[JTG]

I see Martin getting most of the time guarding Dunham, some Semaj and some Dee. The Stain Train will have to get out on his man.

Usually Martin comes to play against Indiana teams...one of his best games was against Purdue last season. He'll probably be in high gear Sat. I say if we are able to run....the Dogs are toast.

[Xavier]

I liked Howard because our coaches liked Howard enough that they desperately wanted him to play at Xavier. He'd probably be one of our all-time favorties (and one of Butler's least favorites) had he chosen us over Butler.

I liked Howard, also. Really wish he had gone to Xavier.

[Xavier]

Everyone (mostly Xavier fans on this board) said Butler's program would fall off with Stevens leaving and Brandon Miller taking over that program. I didn't think that would happen, and have seen no signs of that happening thus far this season. They didn't lay down against Villanova. Hope our guys are ready, and I think they will be.

The potential will never be as high as it was with Stevens as coach. Having said that, I am pleasantly surprised at how well they have played this year.

[kyxu]

The potential will never be as high as it was with Stevens as coach.

Considering the man took Butler to consecutive national title game appearances, that's hardly going out on a limb. But I think, at worst, Miller will have Butler as a consistent NCAA Tournament participant. I really don't care for Butler, but basketball performance-wise, it is a consistently solid program. They don't miss much.

[GetUp5]

From Butler's Message Board...

"In less than 24 hours my team is leading off their Big East road schedule. Normally at this time I would be a nervous wreck. But I am not. I know We are going to defeat Xavier tomorrow in a way that the last 10 minutes I will be relaxed. The season we have had will not allow us to lose this game. Now come next week vs Georgetown, or DePaul, I will be back to my normal nail biting self. Real Big East basketball programs, how could I not be.

I am not sure why I am so confident. Maybe it's because I know Bowling Green handed that game to Xavier. BGU was up 3 late and went to the out house. Maybe because Xaviers BIG wins are questionable. No Turner for Cincinnati, Tennessee ending was dicey to say the least. But i think the majority of my confidence in tomorrows game is simply we are just to great a team to lose this game to this team tomorrow. lets freakin' go blue. Our destiny is in Arlington."


L-O-L. Who, on God's green earth, is Turner?

That dicey ending against Tennessee? Ohhhhh yeah, that game that Xavier led for, ohhh, the last 40 minutes of the game.

[paulxu]

It kind of interesting that Butler has become the new Dayton. A close (geographically) conference rival.
Floorsweeper seems like a typical Crier fan, but at least I think you can post on their board. The idiots at Dayton have a closed message board.

It's more interesting that Dayton has already faded in the rearview mirror. Just a minor bump on the highway to better basketball.

I won't be around to see it, but it would be nice to have a bunch of presidents' faces spanning 31 years for Butler, starting with Obama, for my grandkids to marvel at.

[Wildmanroom]

From Butler's Message Board...

"In less than 24 hours my team is leading off their Big East road schedule. Normally at this time I would be a nervous wreck. But I am not. I know We are going to defeat Xavier tomorrow in a way that the last 10 minutes I will be relaxed. The season we have had will not allow us to lose this game. Now come next week vs Georgetown, or DePaul, I will be back to my normal nail biting self. Real Big East basketball programs, how could I not be.

I am not sure why I am so confident. Maybe it's because I know Bowling Green handed that game to Xavier. BGU was up 3 late and went to the out house. Maybe because Xaviers BIG wins are questionable. No Turner for Cincinnati, Tennessee ending was dicey to say the least. But i think the majority of my confidence in tomorrows game is simply we are just to great a team to lose this game to this team tomorrow. lets freakin' go blue. Our destiny is in Arlington."


L-O-L. Who, on God's green earth, is Turner?

That dicey ending against Tennessee? Ohhhhh yeah, that game that Xavier led for, ohhh, the last 40 minutes of the game.

This is a parody of a Mississippi State fan post before a 2003 NCAA game when they totally dismissed Butler's chances. The BU poster is just having fun with it with an X twist.

[Irishdawg]

This is a parody of a Mississippi State fan post before a 2003 NCAA game when they totally dismissed Butler's chances. The BU poster is just having fun with it with an X twist.

It was actually the 2010 tournament before they played Syracuse, but yeah, it's just a running gag.

Here's the original post:

"In five hours my team is leading off the sweet 16. Normally at this time I would be a nervous wreck. But I am not. I know We are going to defeat Butler tonight in a way that the last 10 minutes I will be relaxed. The season we have had will not allow us to lose this game. Now come Saturday vs Kansas State, or Xavier, I will be back to my normal nail biting self. Final Four on the line, how could I not be.

"I am not sure why I am so confident. Maybe it's because I know Murray State handed that game to Butler. State was up 3 late and went to the out house. Maybe because Butlers BIG wins are questionable. No Turner for OSU, Xavier ending was dicey to say the least.

"But i think the majority of my confidence in tonights game is simply we are just to great a team to lose this game to this team tonight. lets freakin' go orange. Our destiny is in Indianapolis."

-Syracuse fan adkCuse

[XUFan09]

This is a parody of a Mississippi State fan post before a 2003 NCAA game when they totally dismissed Butler's chances. The BU poster is just having fun with it with an X twist.

Oh thank God. I was worried that Butler fans had become as delusional as Dayton fans.

[paulxu]

Is Dana's open yet?

[coasterville95]

I looked on their Facebook page. It has a 6pm opening today. I sure they probably will open for the game.

[fellahmuskie]

Stream of the game for those searching - http://www.vipboxeu.co/basketball/199344/1/butler-at-xavier--live-stream-online.html

[paulxu]

I love when Martin catches and shoots in rhythm.

[brownlavender]

Did they count that 3 then give the ball back to butler on the martin foul under the basket for a 5 point play?

[coasterville95]

Beers were flowing at Listerman's before the game. Try the Lateral.

Shaky Start so far.

[coasterville95]

Yeah a foul after the shot returned the ball to then.

[coasterville95]

I have a feeling this is going to be one of those long games with a whistle on every play. We have fouled the three point shooter twice in the first seven minutes.

[The_Mack_Pack]

These refs have been pathetic on both sides. That call on Stainbrook was garbage.

[BMoreX]

Only 10 people allowed in the chatzy group at one time?

Lame.

[The_Mack_Pack]

I can't believe X is within 5.. Butler can't friggin miss.

[coasterville95]

Down 5 at half. How about that awesome defense on that last play.

[Xavgrad08]

How in the world did we leave a Butler guy wide open under the basket before the half? Butler is a frustrating team to play because they are so fundamentally sound. Should be a good second half.

[bjf123]

Let's just hope they can't keep shooting 60% from the floor and 57% from behind the arc.


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[The_Mack_Pack]

Dunham will keep hitting shots like that because that's what he does but X has to limit the second chance points and those easy 10 foot shots Marshall has been getting so easily.

[sirthought]

Can't say I'm too impressed with our defense overall, but this Butler team is a much tougher matchup than I expected. They've got speed and control better than many opponents XU has faced.

[Xavgrad08]

Martin's jump shot has been pretty today. I am going to scream if Dunham hits one more off balance shot.

[xumuskies08]

GD butler flops more than any team I've ever seen.

[coasterville95]

Tied up at 62 with 7:27. Every game will be a battle right?

[GoMuskies]

Excellent, hard fought win today.

Who would have expected Marquette to be the worst team we'd play on this three game Big East homestand?

[The_Mack_Pack]

Great win! Really locked down in the second half.

[Grizzx12]

Great game!!!! Nice to see them make some FTs at the end and the Big Finish by Philmore!!

[BMoreX]

If you didn't love that final Philmore dunk, you're un-American.

[paulxu]

Respect the Streak.

[Michigan Muskie]

Just keep winning, just keep winning, just keep winning winning winning. What do we do? We win win win. Ho ho ho ho I love to win.

[BMoreX]

RPI up to 21...

[American X]

Sweet win, great second half. This team has an abundancy of resiliency.

Go eat yellow snow Butler Generic Mascots.

[xumuskies08]

Butler won't be happy about that Philmore dunk. I don't care. I'm glad he dunked it.

[Porkopolis]

Butler won't be happy about that Philmore dunk. I don't care. I'm glad he dunked it.

I'm still smiling. Those whiny SOBs can get over it. After their diving display they deserved to be humiliated a bit.

[fellahmuskie]

We could play like angels and Butler would still think we're thugs. I'd rather win and zip em up!

[GreatWhiteNorth]

The final score does reflect how close this game was. It could have gone either way, a real nail-biter, but the good guys have the final say. We did not panic when we were behind because we believe in ourselves and we played as a team. Our FT shooting was outstanding........we have that problem fixed in time for close game like this. Congratulations to Mack and the team for maintaining the streak. Just keep winning......Go X.

[coasterville95]

I give the assist to the Cintas Center crowd for coming to life the last 4 minutes. That was the game changer.

Go Fans!

Ticket $29 - Beers $14 - sending Butler home with an 11 point loss PRICELESS!

[coasterville95]

That Phimore Dunk was the icing on the cake!

I hope It just pissed the butler fans off to no end.

I also think this game will be a learning experience. These guys took Nova to overtime. Hanging with then and winning has to count for something.

[oddblob]

That Phimore Dunk was the icing on the cake!


o/

solid w. this team is cohering and im pretty happy.

[waggy]

Who would have expected Marquette to be the worst team we'd play on this three game Big East homestand?

I think Marquette is super dangerous. I watched a lot of their game against Creighton, and they were a lot better than the score indicates.

[X Factor]

That Phimore Dunk was the icing on the cake!

I hope It just pissed the butler fans off to no end.

I also think this game will be a learning experience. These guys took Nova to overtime. Hanging with then and winning has to count for something.

They're already talking about it on their message board. One clown over there is talking about how Butler will win the next 3 against Xavier.

[SemajParlor]

This balanced scoring attack and people stepping up in spurts is getting more and more fun to watch

[muskiefan82]

Butler is the new Dayton. They follow us from conference to conference and can't win here. Their fans whine like them too.

[coasterville95]

Balance scoring is a key. Sid fundamental ball, getting rebounds. The team may have some rough spots, but for the most part it has gelled. And that is a great thing.

[Juice]

This balanced scoring attack and people stepping up in spurts is getting more and more fun to watch

White people....smdh

[X Factor]

X has won 11 of 14 and 4 of 5 against Butler.

[LadyMuskie]

If you didn't love that final Philmore dunk, you're un-American.


Butler is the new Dayton. They follow us from conference to conference and can't win here. Their fans whine like them too.

Yes to both of these. Especially muskiefan's observation.

[Irishdawg]

Better team won today, congrats. One of these days in the Big East Butler might not be outweighed by 20+ pounds per man with zero speed advantage, but that's got to come with recruiting and strength and conditioning, which Butler's never had to do very well before. Could care less about Philmore dunk, game was over either way.

[paulxu]

Big East Standings


TEAM CONF OVERALL
Xavier 2-0 12-3
Georgetown 2-0 10-3
Villanova 1-0 12-1
Creighton 1-0 11-2
Seton Hall 1-0 10-4
Marquette 1-1 9-6
Providence 0-1 10-4
Butler 0-2 10-4
St. John's 0-2 9-5
DePaul 0-2 8-7


ESPN current rankings. Flagship.
Going to be hard to win this conference, but every close game builds the teamwork play and trust.

[The_Mack_Pack]

Better team won today, congrats. One of these days in the Big East Butler might not be outweighed by 20+ pounds per man with zero speed advantage, but that's got to come with recruiting and strength and conditioning, which Butler's never had to do very well before. Could care less about Philmore dunk, game was over either way.

As said before, the final score was not indicative of the game. Butler is a very impressive team and I hope they make the tourney.

The game at Hinkle should be a lot of fun.

[X-ROX]

Better team won today, congrats. One of these days in the Big East Butler might not be outweighed by 20+ pounds per man with zero speed advantage, but that's got to come with recruiting and strength and conditioning, which Butler's never had to do very well before. Could care less about Philmore dunk, game was over either way.

Classy post, Idawg.I agree with your assessment...... I do think the reason Zeke finished with that dunk was a makeup for Woods dunk to finish 1st half. Normally I cringe at such displays, but this one had me smiling

[aurorix2]

The dunk at the end is why I will never root for X no matter what! Totally classless.

[LadyMuskie]

ESPN current rankings. Flagship.
Going to be hard to win this conference, but every close game builds the teamwork play and trust.

I love seeing Xavier atop that list! When we finish the conference undefeated, I'm going to rub it in that I was the only person brave enough to say we'd win every conference game :biggrin:

[LadyMuskie]

The dunk at the end is why I will never root for X no matter what! Totally classless.

Oh no! Somehow, we'll all have to learn to live with your disapproval. Wait. . . yep. . . we're over it.

[aurorix2]

Butler will win the next three against X. Mark it down.

[xuinmd]

Methinks Aur must have spent some time at ud before butler.

[NY44]

The dunk at the end is why I will never root for X no matter what! Totally classless.

If only there was like...ehh...1.3 seconds less on the clock, then that dunk wouldn't have even counted.

[bleedXblue]

Butler will win the next three against X. Mark it down.

And the doucheness continues..........

[BMoreX]

The dunk at the end is why I will never root for X no matter what! Totally classless.

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/01/05/8y7y6y5e.jpg

[xumuskies08]

Butler will win the next three against X. Mark it down.

Posters like you are why I will never root for Butler no matter what! Totally douchey.

[XUPhilly04]

Great win today. Butler is going to be a tough out for the rest of the league. With this being the 1st time I saw Butler play this year, I was surprised with how fast Butler played. Less of the slow-ball they played with Stevens. Also, 2nd half, XU's up tempo offense seemed to force Butler into backing off the offensive glass. As soon as Butler would shot, at least 3 players would be rushing back on d.

[coasterville95]

Am I being hateful in hoping this colts beat down continues. Imagine butlers poor fans, traumatized by Philmores dunk and losing by 11 got into their cars heading back up i74, turned on the Colts for a pick me up and get to endure this. That 2 hour drive might seem like 2 years!

[KabeX]

If only there was like...ehh...1.3 seconds less on the clock, then that dunk wouldn't have even counted.
LOL +1 on that one

[X-man]

Butler will win the next three against X. Mark it down.

And it's stupid comments like your that make me never want to root for Butler...as in never. But hey, what do you expect from a Butler troll?

[XUPhilly04]

If only there was like...ehh...1.3 seconds less on the clock, then that dunk wouldn't have even counted.

NY, that dunk was understandably very offensive to Butler. How dare Philmore showoff his ability to dunk when majority of the Butler team can't.

[LA Muskie]

I'm honestly shocked anyone gives a crap about the dunk. And I suspect only a few really do. Butler was still pressing up until the pass and dunk. If they wanted to walk off the court they could and would have fallen back. This is a non-issue except for a few moronic Butler fanatics.

[Irishdawg]

LOL +1 on that one

I even laughed at that one.

[xudash]

Better team won today, congrats. One of these days in the Big East Butler might not be outweighed by 20+ pounds per man with zero speed advantage, but that's got to come with recruiting and strength and conditioning, which Butler's never had to do very well before. Could care less about Philmore dunk, game was over either way.

If only some of your fellow fans exhibited the class you exhibit.

It's time they come to terms with a hard, absolute fact: a brawl and two former players from New York with NY attitudes (albeit Lyon's home geography being upstate) do not define the Xavier program. Xavier's program is defined by years of success coupled with graduating players and doing things the right way.

A lot of your fan base is really small minded. They act like they're still in the Horizon League.

[boozehound]

Butler won't be happy about that Philmore dunk. I don't care. I'm glad he dunked it.

They were still pressing and trying to foul. We broke the press and dunked. People that make a big deal about that kind of stuff are just pussies. I can pretty much guarantee you that the players, on either side, don't give a shit about half of these types of things that fans make a big deal about.

[BMoreX]

I'm honestly shocked anyone gives a crap about the dunk. And I suspect only a few really do. Butler was still pressing up until the pass and dunk. If they wanted to walk off the court they could and would have fallen back. This is a non-issue except for a few moronic Butler fanatics.

Honestly right when he knew it, I knew the majority of Butler faithful would whine about it.

As you all should know, that is definitely not the butler way.

[bleedXblue]

Butler fans are mad about a dunk when they were pressing ? Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.

And whatever it is that Luck is trying to do with that beard must stop. He looks beyond ridiculous.

[BlueGuy]

The dunk at the end is why I will never root for X no matter what! Totally classless.

I wish he would have dunked it harder.


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[GrimeTime]

If only there was like...ehh...1.3 seconds less on the clock, then that dunk wouldn't have even counted.

Just about spit out my Chipotle on the keyboard.

[GrimeTime]

The dunk at the end is why I will never root for X no matter what! Totally classless.

But pressing and fouling with under 20 seconds remaining in a three-possession game is classy? Ha. Normally I like to see the players just dribble it out, but under the circumstances, I loved it.

[Muskied]

But pressing and fouling with under 20 seconds remaining in a three-possession game is classy? Ha. Normally I like to see the players just dribble it out, but under the circumstances, I loved it.

it's funny, every time Brown scored on Xavier's end, he would turn to our bench...nice attitude frosh. Xavier let their play to the talking today, and followed every requirement Butler fans demanded of them. They made a basket with 1.2 seconds left...then Mack said about 500 positive things about Butler in the press conference including saying that was a tough game between the 7th and 9th best big east teams (tongue in cheek)

Yet Xavier is still classless.

Maybe we should just roll the ball to them next game, play with 4 players, not defend them, play every game at hinkle...oh, and give the announcers a roster with only numbers so they don't "talk about our players too much".

I've honestly never experienced such a group of whiney bitc&es.

[TUclutch]

If you didn't love that final Philmore dunk, you're un-American.

Was it a windmill or anything? Saw a guy on twitter reference Mark Lyons end of the game dunk he did one time. I didnt see it

[LA Muskie]

I tend to doubt that the complaints are coming from a "majority" of Butler fans. I'm sure there a few d-bags on their message board, but let's be honest -- there are a few Musketeer d-bag fans as well. We shouldn't let their d-bags define them anymore than we would want to be defined by ours.

I thought it was a good, hard fought game. One of the more entertaining games I've seen in a while. I'm not sure Butler will be seeing the NC two years in a row again any time soon, but other than that (and that's not a particularly fair barometer) I don't think they're going to lose a step with Brandon Miller at the helm.

[LA Muskie]

Was it a windmill or anything? Saw a guy on twitter reference Mark Lyons end of the game dunk he did one time. I didnt see it

Isaiah Philmore with a windmill dunk? Now that had me laughing. No, it was not. But he threw it down hard, which for Philmore is about as close as he could probably get. To the extent there are any complaints about it, it would be the timing -- with about 1.5 seconds left and a 9 pt lead. But the context makes it entirely legitimate; it followed a missed Butler 3, a Stainbrook rebound, and a Butler press to steal or foul. In other words, they were still playing. So...so were we.

Like someone else said, I very much doubt a single Butler coach or player cares about the dunk.

[XUPhilly04]

Overall, this is starting to look like the beginning of a great rivalry. Love the fact that we will play them home and away each year. Its good to see that we found a new rival this soon, especially since we may lose another one if Cronin can cry his way out of the shootout.

[xumuskies08]

Found this post on one of their message boards. Just priceless. The more I pay attention to their fans the more they remind me of Flyer fans.

"Cintas: What an awful place to experience a college game.

Most of the action is artificial: lots of video on the big screen, recorded music, etc. which takes the crowd totally out of the game. They even play video of their players exhorting the crowd to get loud, yell, etc. Tawdry and disgraceful in my opinion. I'm embarrassed for those kids. Band hardly plays, one of many factors which help to ensure a mostly disengaged crowd. (I suspect the powers that be feel band and crowd interferes with recorded music, video games and the show.)The "show" (hard to call it a game) is strictly NBA. The game is a side show to the artificial histrionics. Consequently, it seems to be a less than intimidating environment for the road team - especially today with a less than full house.

In other words, doubt if we will encounter a more winnable road game except perhaps DePaul."

http://buhoops.yuku.com/topic/9826/Xavier-quick-linksgame-thread?page=1

[BMoreX]

Stinkle Fieldhouse has billboards of student fans to make it feel more crowded behind the actual student section.

That is all.

[Juice]

Found this post on one of their message boards. Just priceless. The more I pay attention to their fans the more they remind me of Flyer fans.

"Cintas: What an awful place to experience a college game.

Most of the action is artificial: lots of video on the big screen, recorded music, etc. which takes the crowd totally out of the game. They even play video of their players exhorting the crowd to get loud, yell, etc. Tawdry and disgraceful in my opinion. I'm embarrassed for those kids. Band hardly plays, one of many factors which help to ensure a mostly disengaged crowd. (I suspect the powers that be feel band and crowd interferes with recorded music, video games and the show.)The "show" (hard to call it a game) is strictly NBA. The game is a side show to the artificial histrionics. Consequently, it seems to be a less than intimidating environment for the road team - especially today with a less than full house.

In other words, doubt if we will encounter a more winnable road game except perhaps DePaul."

http://buhoops.yuku.com/topic/9826/Xavier-quick-linksgame-thread?page=1

Butler basketball is pure. XU basketball is manufactured shit. Got it.

[Muskied]

Found this post on one of their message boards. Just priceless. The more I pay attention to their fans the more they remind me of Flyer fans.

"Cintas: What an awful place to experience a college game.

Most of the action is artificial: lots of video on the big screen, recorded music, etc. which takes the crowd totally out of the game. They even play video of their players exhorting the crowd to get loud, yell, etc. Tawdry and disgraceful in my opinion. I'm embarrassed for those kids. Band hardly plays, one of many factors which help to ensure a mostly disengaged crowd. (I suspect the powers that be feel band and crowd interferes with recorded music, video games and the show.)The "show" (hard to call it a game) is strictly NBA. The game is a side show to the artificial histrionics. Consequently, it seems to be a less than intimidating environment for the road team - especially today with a less than full house.

In other words, doubt if we will encounter a more winnable road game except perhaps DePaul."

http://buhoops.yuku.com/topic/9826/Xavier-quick-linksgame-thread?page=1

Maybe they should just go back to the horizon league because I hate to tell them...they are going to have to play in a bunch of NBA arenas...including MSG for the tournament. I know I know, it's not as pure as heading to some dump in Valpo or Youngstown...that's where the 3K who actually show up are really paying attention. I mean, Xavier only has about an 90% winning percentage at home. By the way, I called Als Towing who I saw advertised on a sign in Hinkle during the Villanova game...he said he couldn't help me in Ohio. Oh well, good thing I have AAA. Video boards are just a fad anyway...like the internet. What a joke. I know not all fans are like this...but lord that's rich.

[XUPhilly04]

Found this post on one of their message boards. Just priceless. The more I pay attention to their fans the more they remind me of Flyer fans.

"Cintas: What an awful place to experience a college game.

Most of the action is artificial: lots of video on the big screen, recorded music, etc. which takes the crowd totally out of the game. They even play video of their players exhorting the crowd to get loud, yell, etc. Tawdry and disgraceful in my opinion. I'm embarrassed for those kids. Band hardly plays, one of many factors which help to ensure a mostly disengaged crowd. (I suspect the powers that be feel band and crowd interferes with recorded music, video games and the show.)The "show" (hard to call it a game) is strictly NBA. The game is a side show to the artificial histrionics. Consequently, it seems to be a less than intimidating environment for the road team - especially today with a less than full house.

In other words, doubt if we will encounter a more winnable road game except perhaps DePaul."

http://buhoops.yuku.com/topic/9826/Xavier-quick-linksgame-thread?page=1

I think we should start a new thread similar to "Tweets you gotta love" and call it "Some fans say the dumbest things" where we copy & paste "thoughtful" quotes like this. With us regularly playing teams with a lot more fans, I'm sure we can get plenty of gems like this.

[Juice]

Maybe they should just go back to the horizon league because I hate to tell them...they are going to have to play in a bunch of NBA arenas...including MSG for the tournament. I know I know, it's not as pure as heading to some dump in Valpo or Youngstown...that's where the 3K who actually show up are really paying attention. I mean, Xavier only has about an 90% winning percentage at home. By the way, I called Als Towing who I saw advertised on a sign in Hinkle during the Villanova game...he said he couldn't help me in Ohio. Oh well, good thing I have AAA. Video boards are just a fad anyway...like the internet. What a joke. I know not all fans are like this...but lord that's rich.

God forbid a college basketball program actually make some money

[paulxu]

I've honestly never experienced such a group of whiney bitc&es.

I wouldn't go quite that far....

[bleedXblue]

Found this post on one of their message boards. Just priceless. The more I pay attention to their fans the more they remind me of Flyer fans.

"Cintas: What an awful place to experience a college game.

Most of the action is artificial: lots of video on the big screen, recorded music, etc. which takes the crowd totally out of the game. They even play video of their players exhorting the crowd to get loud, yell, etc. Tawdry and disgraceful in my opinion. I'm embarrassed for those kids. Band hardly plays, one of many factors which help to ensure a mostly disengaged crowd. (I suspect the powers that be feel band and crowd interferes with recorded music, video games and the show.)The "show" (hard to call it a game) is strictly NBA. The game is a side show to the artificial histrionics. Consequently, it seems to be a less than intimidating environment for the road team - especially today with a less than full house.

In other words, doubt if we will encounter a more winnable road game except perhaps DePaul."

http://buhoops.yuku.com/topic/9826/Xavier-quick-linksgame-thread?page=1

Translation: man it sucks we lost so let's make up some crap to bitch and moan about

[xudash]

Maybe they should just go back to the horizon league because I hate to tell them...they are going to have to play in a bunch of NBA arenas...including MSG for the tournament. I know I know, it's not as pure as heading to some dump in Valpo or Youngstown...that's where the 3K who actually show up are really paying attention. I mean, Xavier only has about an 90% winning percentage at home. By the way, I called Als Towing who I saw advertised on a sign in Hinkle during the Villanova game...he said he couldn't help me in Ohio. Oh well, good thing I have AAA. Video boards are just a fad anyway...like the internet. What a joke. I know not all fans are like this...but lord that's rich.

Ha! Al's Towing! Are you serious!

I thought they were primarily small minded. They're simply Huckleberry Hayseed Small Minded. Al's Towing. Love it.

[STL_XUfan]

"Cintas: What an awful place to experience a college game.

Most of the action is artificial: lots of video on the big screen, recorded music, etc. which takes the crowd totally out of the game. They even play video of their players exhorting the crowd to get loud, yell, etc. Tawdry and disgraceful in my opinion. I'm embarrassed for those kids. Band hardly plays, one of many factors which help to ensure a mostly disengaged crowd. (I suspect the powers that be feel band and crowd interferes with recorded music, video games and the show.)The "show" (hard to call it a game) is strictly NBA. The game is a side show to the artificial histrionics. Consequently, it seems to be a less than intimidating environment for the road team - especially today with a less than full house.

In other words, doubt if we will encounter a more winnable road game except perhaps DePaul"

http://www.reactiongifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/f-this-panda.gif

[bourbonman]

The dunk at the end is why I will never root for X no matter what! Totally classless.

Totally legit dunk. Why was Butless pressing 9 down with less than 10 secs left. Call off the press and take the loss or suffer the consequences.

[Xavier]

it's funny, every time Brown scored on Xavier's end, he would turn to our bench...nice attitude frosh..

I don't mind that, I like it. Farr actually does it, too. Every time he hits a 3 close to opposing bench he does it.

[Cheesehead]

Damn it. Butler fans are starting to take some of my hatred of UD fans. Ok, maybe not hatred but extreme dislike.

[GoMuskies]

Farr actually does it, too. Every time he hits a 3 close to opposing bench he does it.

Speaking of, Jimmy is into his first slump of 2013-14. Hopefully he deals well with the adversity and comes out on the other side of his slump soon.

Myles Davis is also facing a bit of adversity with his jumper for the first time this season. We're certainly lucky there have been people to take up the slack while they struggle a bit.

[Bulldawg]

Hey great game today guys, looking forward to seeing you again in Hinkle.

[PM Thor]

The dunk at the end is why I will never root for X no matter what! Totally classless.

Let's just ignore the fact that your 3 point shooter got completely shut down in the second half, your interior defense was minimal versus Stainbrook, the fact that Semaj had a pretty much flawless game against a team that KNEW and EVEN SAID they needed to shut him down...

but yeah, let's focus on something that happened that had absolutely no relevance to the outcome of the game. That's the important part. I guess when you are so totally outdone in the second half and lose, you gotta hold onto something. Anything.

[XU 87]

The dunk at the end is why I will never root for X no matter what! Totally classless.

Gosh, what a blow to the program that an idiot like you won't root for X.

[LadyMuskie]

Butler will win the next three against X. Mark it down.

Okay. Just some friendly advice. You may want to lay off the sauce. Butler is as likely to beat Xavier in the next three meetings as you are to make some sort of useful, knowledgeable contribution to this board. Which is to say, it's not likely at all.

[Bmuskie]

Found this post on one of their message boards. Just priceless. The more I pay attention to their fans the more they remind me of Flyer fans.

"Cintas: What an awful place to experience a college game.

Most of the action is artificial: lots of video on the big screen, recorded music, etc. which takes the crowd totally out of the game. They even play video of their players exhorting the crowd to get loud, yell, etc. Tawdry and disgraceful in my opinion. I'm embarrassed for those kids. Band hardly plays, one of many factors which help to ensure a mostly disengaged crowd. (I suspect the powers that be feel band and crowd interferes with recorded music, video games and the show.)The "show" (hard to call it a game) is strictly NBA. The game is a side show to the artificial histrionics. Consequently, it seems to be a less than intimidating environment for the road team - especially today with a less than full house.

In other words, doubt if we will encounter a more winnable road game except perhaps DePaul."

http://buhoops.yuku.com/topic/9826/Xavier-quick-linksgame-thread?page=1

Well he can think that but Cintas is a far superior arena to Hinkle for one reason and one reason only: Our clock actually operates properly.

[xudash]

Well he can think that but Cintas is a far superior arena to Hinkle for one reason and one reason only: Our clock actually operates properly.

That's a good reason, but the CC is better than Stinkhole for many reasons.

[xubrew]

The dunk at the end is why I will never root for X no matter what! Totally classless.

People that get all pissy over issues that aren't really issues are a danger to society. People who are that offended by something that isn't offended are probably the ones that are really likely to snap if happens to them that actually is offensive.

Making baseless assessments and judgments on peoples' character that you don't even know over something as trivial as dunking a basketball is far more classless than dunking a basketball.

[aurorix2]

Dunham is better than Semaj hands down.

[XUFan09]

Dunham is better than Semaj hands down.

Lol not the best game thread for this argument.

[nuts4xu]

Dunham is better than Semaj hands down.

Not today, Dunham was shut down by Maj. Plus look at their numbers from the head to head match up today and make your case why Dunham is better.

Time will tell, but semaj was unstoppable on offense and a true lock down defender guarding Dunham much of today.

How does it feel to be 0-2 in the Big East so far?

[paulxu]

Only in a very strange world would 11 pts., 3 assists and 5 turnovers somehow be "better than" 20 pts., 8 assists and 0 turnovers.

Then I saw your signature line on the Butler board:

To me, truth is not some vague, foggy notion. Truth is real. And, at the same time, unreal. Fiction and fact and everything in between, plus some things I can't remember, all rolled into one big "thing." This is truth, to me.

Makes perfect sense now.

[JTG]

Dunham is better than Semaj hands down.

Just another in the long line of hick 3 pt shooters Butler is so fond of. Do they ever recruit any guys who dont look like cub scouts?



t

[xudash]

Dunham is better than Semaj hands down.

You're team lost, and you're losing here. Run back to your Huckleberry board and chill out with your fellow Huckleberry's.

[GoMuskies]

Dunham is awesome...but no. Just no.

[xumuskies08]

Dunham is better than Semaj hands down.

Is Dunham better than Semaj at shooting off-balance 25 foot three pointers? Absolutely. Is Dunham better than Semaj at the game of basketball? Absolutely not.

C'mon. If you're gonna troll at least be creative.

[aurorix2]

I have several friends who vow never to go to the Cintas Center again because of the way they were treated by Xavier fans.

[nuts4xu]

I have several friends who vow never to go to the Cintas Center again because of the way they were treated by Xavier fans.

Great, they weren't the type we want hanging around there anyway.

[xumuskies08]

I have several friends who vow never to go to the Cintas Center again because of the way they were treated by Xavier fans.

Again, if you're gonna troll at least be creative.

[nuts4xu]

I have several friends who vow never to go to the Cintas Center again because of the way they were treated by Xavier fans.

This would be a great time for me to suggest you go have relations with yourself....
http://www.lolroflmao.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/I-hide-behind-sarcasm-because-telling-you-to-go-fuck-yourself-is-considered-rude-in-most-social-situations1.jpg

[Bmuskie]

I have several friends who vow never to go to the Cintas Center again because of the way they were treated by Xavier fans.

Amazing! I have a lot of friends who vow never to set foot in Hinkle because of how horrible they were treated by Butler fans the last 2 years.

[coasterville95]

You're team lost, and you're losing here. Run back to your Huckleberry board and chill out with your fellow Huckleberry's.

The new and improved Butler mascot:
1323

[xudash]

The new and improved Butler mascot:
1323

And the typical Butler student look - Alfred E. Newman school of douchery:

1324

[Ledgewood]

I have several friends who vow never to go to the Cintas Center again because of the way they were treated by Xavier fans.

This is a complete bullshit lie.

[wkrq59]

This would be a great time for me to suggest you go have relations with yourself....
http://www.lolroflmao.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/I-hide-behind-sarcasm-because-telling-you-to-go-fuck-yourself-is-considered-rude-in-most-social-situations1.jpg

Nuts, pleased to meet you Saturday at Cintas, love your response to this (ugh) . I always preferred "Attempt a physical impossibility" to the archaic "have relations". The SOB probably has kin that try to do that every night...hee hee! q

[X-man]

I have several friends who vow never to go to the Cintas Center again because of the way they were treated by Xavier fans.

Are you sure that they are real? In your little fantasy world, nothing you "observe" appears to be very accurate.

[X-man]

Found this post on one of their message boards. Just priceless. The more I pay attention to their fans the more they remind me of Flyer fans.

"Cintas: What an awful place to experience a college game.

Most of the action is artificial: lots of video on the big screen, recorded music, etc. which takes the crowd totally out of the game. They even play video of their players exhorting the crowd to get loud, yell, etc. Tawdry and disgraceful in my opinion. I'm embarrassed for those kids. Band hardly plays, one of many factors which help to ensure a mostly disengaged crowd. (I suspect the powers that be feel band and crowd interferes with recorded music, video games and the show.)The "show" (hard to call it a game) is strictly NBA. The game is a side show to the artificial histrionics. Consequently, it seems to be a less than intimidating environment for the road team - especially today with a less than full house.

In other words, doubt if we will encounter a more winnable road game except perhaps DePaul."

http://buhoops.yuku.com/topic/9826/Xavier-quick-linksgame-thread?page=1

I looked at the link and was pleasantly surprised to see that most Butler fans posting in that particular thread are rational and knowledgable about their basketball. In other words, (1) the troll posting on our board, as well as the one quoted in this posted link, appear to be an aberration from the typical Butler basketball fan, and (2) Butler fans are therefore in fact very different from cryer fans who nearly universally appear to be both obsessed with Xavier basketball and seriously delusional about the quality of their own team.

[XU-PA]

worked during the game, avoided all contact with humans, came home and fired up the DVR.
Just so awesome, what a complete win!
Watched butler play nova on conference opening day and was VERY worried that their shooters would really be able to light us up. XU"s defense was able to shut the shooters down, cutting the output of Dunham and Brown nearly in half from what they did vs Nova.

More excited now for XUBB than anytime this season, the team played well top to bottom, slip ups/turnovers failed to tear down the morale and drive, very very impressed.
Tip of my very old Xavier hat to Coach Mack and the men, hopefully you will never cease to amaze me!

[American X]

The new and improved Butler mascot:
1323

Roy Williams?

[kyxu]

Dunham is better than Semaj hands down.

At the tractor pull, maybe. At the game of basketball, it is Semaj and it is not even close, my friend.

There is not a single player on Butler's team, and perhaps not a single player in this conference, who can stay in front of Semaj Christon.

[bleedXblue]

To compare the two to begin with is just stupid. They are two completely different type of players.

[X-ROX]

I have several friends who vow never to go to the Cintas Center again because of the way they were treated by Xavier fans.

I actually gave a Butler fan a free ticket at the ticket kiosk. I didn't realize she was a Butler fan until after, but she was very thankful and they weren't loud enough to hear anyway. I will pay closer attention next time. I'll usually give to someone with kids, but she was the only one there at the time and I was in a hurry to get a beer.

[bleedXblue]

I didn't see or hear a single issue with any Butler fans. They cheered for their team, just like we would cheer for Xavier.

[sgarcia]

Found this post on one of their message boards. Just priceless. The more I pay attention to their fans the more they remind me of Flyer fans.

"Cintas: What an awful place to experience a college game.

Most of the action is artificial: lots of video on the big screen, recorded music, etc. which takes the crowd totally out of the game. They even play video of their players exhorting the crowd to get loud, yell, etc. Tawdry and disgraceful in my opinion. I'm embarrassed for those kids. Band hardly plays, one of many factors which help to ensure a mostly disengaged crowd. (I suspect the powers that be feel band and crowd interferes with recorded music, video games and the show.)The "show" (hard to call it a game) is strictly NBA. The game is a side show to the artificial histrionics. Consequently, it seems to be a less than intimidating environment for the road team - especially today with a less than full house.

In other words, doubt if we will encounter a more winnable road game except perhaps DePaul."

http://buhoops.yuku.com/topic/9826/Xavier-quick-linksgame-thread?page=1

We sell beer at the 'Tas so we have a better arena then almost all college basketball teams. That and we win 88% of our home games.

[Muskeagle]

BTW, not to get too argumentative with a troll, but of course the band barely played--the students are gone and it was a skeleton--if not alumni version of the band.

[SemajParlor]

If only some of your fellow fans exhibited the class you exhibit.

It's time they come to terms with a hard, absolute fact: a brawl and two former players from New York with NY attitudes (albeit Lyon's home geography being upstate) do not define the Xavier program. Xavier's program is defined by years of success coupled with graduating players and doing things the right way.

A lot of your fan base is really small minded. They act like they're still in the Horizon League.

lol NY attitudes. Ok then

[xudash]

lol NY attitudes. Ok then

I wasn't clear with that. I don't look at it that way. I believe some of our opposing fans look at it that way when it comes to the stupid "gangsta" thing, which we all know was misinterpreted.

[Cheesehead]

Only in a very strange world would 11 pts., 3 assists and 5 turnovers somehow be "better than" 20 pts., 8 assists and 0 turnovers.

Then I saw your signature line on the Butler board:


Makes perfect sense now.

Maybe someone is a frequent visitor to Colorado?

[OH.X.MI]

I have several friends who vow never to go to the Cintas Center again because of the way they were treated by Xavier fans.

Some friends and I may or may not have yelled some naughty words at a group of Butler fans in the parking lot when walking to Dana's after the game two years ago. Sorry if any feelings were hurt bro.

[Masterofreality]

Indy Star game story. Two things:

A) Justin Martin has the quote of the year IMO on Kellen Dunham- "We wanted to smell what type of gum he was chewing". HA!
B) Chris Mack is the first coach all year to figure out a scheme to stop Dunham...and other Big East teams will try to copy. Yeah, we have a coach, folks.

http://ux.indystar.com/story/sports/college/butler/2014/01/04/butlers-dunham-draws-extra-attention-in-loss/4320941/

[HuskyMuskie]

Indy Star game story. Two things:

A) Justin Martin has the quote of the year IMO on Kellen Dunham- "We wanted to smell what type of gum he was chewing". HA!
B) Chris Mack is the first coach all year to figure out a scheme to stop Dunham...and other Big East teams will try to copy. Yeah, we have a coach, folks.

http://ux.indystar.com/story/sports/college/butler/2014/01/04/butlers-dunham-draws-extra-attention-in-loss/4320941/

I loved that quote by Martin. Even Dunham was complementary of Dee and the defensive scheme we had on him all day. Overall a very well coached game, and executed at a great level. Couldn't be happier with the whole outcome and in-game adjustments yesterday. On to the next!

[Masterofreality]

Hey, Husky...Are U the "Bald Cheerleader"?

[blobfan]

Again, if you're gonna troll at least be creative.
Considering the caliber of troll the school has recently sent to our boards, this is borderline genius.

I didn't see or hear a single issue with any Butler fans. They cheered for their team, just like we would cheer for Xavier.
Aurorix is just mad that his Mom wouldn't give him bus fare to come to the game. Sad, really. I do believe what he said about his friends experience. I'm pretty sure Floorsweeper was very convincing when telling the story.

[X-band '01]

Indy Star game story. Two things:

A) Justin Martin has the quote of the year IMO on Kellen Dunham- "We wanted to smell what type of gum he was chewing". HA!
B) Chris Mack is the first coach all year to figure out a scheme to stop Dunham...and other Big East teams will try to copy. Yeah, we have a coach, folks.

http://ux.indystar.com/story/sports/college/butler/2014/01/04/butlers-dunham-draws-extra-attention-in-loss/4320941/

It was Dentyne.

[boozehound]

I have several friends who vow never to go to the Cintas Center again because of the way they were treated by Xavier fans.

If this is true (it's not), then your friends must be tremendous pussies. Cintas is a pretty tame place for visiting fans. The average age is probably like 55 years old.

[SlimKibbles]

If this is true (it's not), then your friends must be tremendous pussies. Cintas is a pretty tame place for visiting fans. The average age is probably like 55 years old.

My sis was wearing her Butler garb (she's an '02 grad) and never ran into any issues with anybody. Yeah, I might have had the "say anything nasty to her and I'll punch you in the mouth" look whenever I was around her though. :smile:

[HuskyMuskie]

Hey, Husky...Are U the "Bald Cheerleader"?

While I also go hoarse screaming during nearly every game, I am not the infamous bald cheerleader.

[XUFan09]

After some time to reflect, here's my take (http://fromstaaktomack.wordpress.com/2014/01/05/post-game-xavier-79-butler-68/) on the game.

[xudash]

After some time to reflect, here's my take (http://fromstaaktomack.wordpress.com/2014/01/05/post-game-xavier-79-butler-68/) on the game.

Nice write-up. May write-ups like this continue the rest of the season!

[XUFan09]

Nice write-up. May write-ups like this continue the rest of the season!

Starting classes this semester...There might just be fewer of the epic posts like that one I just did on tournament capsules lol. I might have to budget less time to posting on the message boards, funneling that energy/time into blog posts (that can often be on the same topics anyway).

[XU-PA]

Indy Star game story.

A) Justin Martin has the quote of the year IMO on Kellen Dunham- "We wanted to smell what type of gum he was chewing".


http://ux.indystar.com/story/sports/college/butler/2014/01/04/butlers-dunham-draws-extra-attention-in-loss/4320941/

Love JMart even more, knowing he has a love for classic film

[paulxu]

Starting classes this semester....

Are you taking classes at UR?

[XUFan09]

Are you taking classes at UR?

That's probably next semester for the teaching certificate. This semester is just some community college classes to fulfill course requirements through a cheaper route.

[ammtd34]

The day after games (wins or losses) I kill time at work by reading the game thread from the opposing board. It does seem to be a minority of posters who were "against" the dunk, but man, they were REALLY against it.

[xudash]

The day after games (wins or losses) I kill time at work by reading the game thread from the opposing board. It does seem to be a minority of posters who were "against" the dunk, but man, they were REALLY against it.

As is the case with any fan base, you'll find some balance coupled with some idiocy. In Butler's case, you're looking at some real jealousy of Xavier. We've owned them recently and have owned them historically. We took one of their coaches. We play in a much nicer venue and in front of bigger crowds. Overall, they've always been a smaller fiddle that accomplished more with less. That aspect of their program is admirable.

Tournament resumes? Sorry, but ours is fine and will only improve. They had nice back-to-back runs to the F4, but they didn't win the championship. Major programs think in terms of winning the trophy, not coming close to doing that. And some of their petty, self-righteous shots at our program - stupid comments about thuggery and classless dunks - are further examples of them not seeing beyond the Horizon.