Wake Forest @ Xavier (December 28, 2013) Game Thread

[paulxu]

http://grfx.cstv.com/schools/xavi/graphics/auto/prosser-classic-logo.jpg
http://img0064.popscreencdn.com/129989368_-com-wake-forest-demon-deacons-ncaa-musical-mascot-.jpg VShttp://cache.lego.com/upload/contentTemplating/MinifiguresBios/images/pic773F455B41A27FB44B60F2397BAA49D7.jpg

Xavier University Musketeers (9-3) vs. Wake Forest Demon Deacons (10-2)
Saturday, December 28, 2013 at 5:00 p.m. ET
The Cintas Center (10,250), Cincinnati, Ohio

Live Chat (http://www.chatzy.com/32573582761803)

Notes and Stats (http://www.goxavier.com/sports/m-baskbl/spec-rel/122613aaa.html)

Television: FOX Sports 1 with Mike Gleason (play-by-play) and Bob Wenzel (analysis).

Radio: 55KRC-AM with Joe Sunderman '79 (play-by-play) and Bryon Larkin '88 (analysis).

[paulxu]

I figure if Blobfan can keep up with the avatars, I'll try to do this stuff.

Now THIS game is a Classic. The other game trying to steal the name...is a Shootout.

Mack getting his 100th win on Saturday would be a great way to honor Skip.

[GoMuskies]

I'm bringing the family for my sort of annual pilgrimage to the Cintas Center. Hopefully I'll be there for a winner (my recent record is kind of shaky).

[Masterofreality]

I'm bringing the family for my sort of annual pilgrimage to the Cintas Center. Hopefully I'll be there for a winner (my recent record is kind of shaky).

Hey, you gonna be at Dana's or somewhere else we can meet up?

I'll be down.

By the way, Victory Saturday will be Chris Mack's 100th win as a Head Coach at Xavier University...against Wake...a place he used to coach at....and in the Skip Prosser Classic....honoring his former boss. Good Karma and very appropriate.

[GoMuskies]

Hey, you gonna be at Dana's or somewhere else we can meet up?


I'll be with my three and six year old boys, so I'm living by the old Skip Prosser mantra on Saturday: get in, get a win, get out. I'd be honored to purchase you a yummy beer at halftime, though. Give me a shout at xumuskies@hotmail.com.

[Masterofreality]

Cool, we'll meet up.

[XUFan09]

Here's my take (http://fromstaaktomack.wordpress.com/2013/12/27/the-skip-prosser-classic/) on the game! I'm a little sleep-deprived today, but I still think I managed to cobble together something decent lol.

[X-man]

I will be at Listerman's before the game, and make sure a TV has the UK-UL game on (4:00 start). BTW the morning line has the Muskies favored by 7.5. I believe that my Muskies will cover easily.

[UCGRAD4X]

I will be at Listerman's before the game, and make sure a TV has the UK-UL game on (4:00 start). BTW the morning line has the Muskies favored by 7.5. I believe that my Muskies will cover easily.

something in particular going down at Listermans? not that there needs to be necessarily…I love that place! almost as much of a hole-in-the-wall as DG…even got a gift card for Christmas..

[UCGRAD4X]

I figure if Blobfan can keep up with the avatars, I'll try to do this stuff.

Now THIS game is a Classic. The other game trying to steal the name...is a Shootout.

Mack getting his 100th win on Saturday would be a great way to honor Skip.

Is the little lego musketeer guy available at the bookstore?

[X-man]

something in particular going down at Listermans? not that there needs to be necessarily…I love that place! almost as much of a hole-in-the-wall as DG…even got a gift card for Christmas..

Just the usual....excellent beer for our pre-game festivities.

[Masterofreality]

Look out Cincinnati...

On my way to Dana's then Cintas!

Have a beer ready for me '94 Grad.

[coasterville95]

May be over at Listerman's. Haven't been in there since the bowling Green game. Eager to see if they have anything new and exciting. If, not you can't go wrong with the Intergalactic IPA. Or the Chickow. Or the, well you get the idea.

[X-man]

May be over at Listerman's. Haven't been in there since the bowling Green game. Eager to see if they have anything new and exciting. If, not you can't go wrong with the Intergalactic IPA. Or the Chickow. Or the, well you get the idea.

If you do, come say "hi" if you have a chance. I will be the guy wearing the "Oyster City" hat.

[coasterville95]

I'm at Listerman's. They have a cedar IPA and their smoked bock on. Chickow also available but no intergalactic.

[paulxu]

Is the little lego musketeer guy available at the bookstore?

I don't think so. I think some people just screw around making lego characters that never make it into a set, or sold at retail.
If I ever run across one (I'm always looking) I'll let you know.

[XUFan09]

I'm at Listerman's. They have a cedar IPA and their smoked bock on. Chickow also available but no intergalactic.

I hope those are still there when I hit up Listerman's before the St. John's game. The last time I went there was for my bachelor party, which was a little...hazy.

[X Factor]

Martin can look just awful shooting the ball. He has thrown up about 3 bricks so far.

Farr needs more minutes! I say it every game.

[oddblob]

martin should literally never play. never.

[Strange Brew]

Great half. Excellent energy, now finish them in the 2nd.

[powerofX]

I want to vomit ever time that Xavier commercial comes on during games. That is all. Just horrible.

[Strange Brew]

I want to vomit ever time that Xavier commercial comes on during games. That is all. Just horrible.

Agree, not on brand at all.

[xu82]

I've missed a few games, but I don't remember them running this much all season. Three guards and get out and RUN! Maybe it's just me....

[bjf123]

I've missed a few games, but I don't remember them running this much all season. Three guards and get out and RUN! Maybe it's just me....

It's not just you.


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[The_Mack_Pack]

Seeing some awesome passes in this one.

[oddblob]

dat farr hook :secretservice:

[The_Mack_Pack]

Man is Farr impressive. He's had a few nice looking post moves tonight.

[mistabeecee41]

was hoping Philmore would turn his last game into a string of performances that will change my mind about him. How many weak reverse layups of his have been swatted in this game alone? 4?

[oddblob]

How many weak reverse layups of his have been swatted in this game alone? 4?


at least

[XUFan09]

was hoping Philmore would turn his last game into a string of performances that will change my mind about him. How many weak reverse layups of his have been swatted in this game alone? 4?

I think it's at the point where defenses are scouting it. He has to have more shake to his post game to get the shot off against athletic bigs.

[The_Mack_Pack]

Philmore is in the middle of a terrible stretch of plays now.

[xu82]

Philmore is in the middle of a terrible stretch of plays now.

I try to stay positive, but I'm not sure "terrible" adequately describes it. Way to use restraint.

[oddblob]

stainbrook is my dude. love this kid. he really is the anti-kenny

[xu82]

stainbrook is my dude. love this kid. he really is the anti-kenny

I saw an interview with Sean O'Mara saying he wants to play against, learn from and become the next Stainbrook. I'm all for THAT!

[DC Muskie]

What a boring 15 point win. I'll take it!

[XUFan09]

What a boring 15 point win. I'll take it!

The last 12 minutes or so really were boring lol. It probably has something to do with Xavier not really scoring...9 points in the last 12:21.

[XUFan09]

The last 12 minutes or so really were boring lol. It probably has something to do with Xavier not really scoring...9 points in the last 12:21.

A drought of 5:24, then Stainbrook came back in at 7:43 and scored 7 of those points between 6:57 and 5:16. He then left at 4:50, and the only other points Xavier scored were two free throws by Brandon Randolph at 0:49.

Good defense by Wake, so they deserve some credit (and Xavier some blame for some poor possessions). Still, that lack of scoring was highly improbable and I'm glad it happened when Xavier had a 22-point lead and only allowed 16 points by Wake in that last 12:21.

[GreatWhiteNorth]

Happy to get the W, but the shooting was really poor for both teams in the 2nd half. SC was missing a lot of shots. Big Stain had an outstanding game, and so had Farr........he's been consistently a bright spot on this team. We did out-rebounded WF by a considerable margin, and our FT shooting was respectable.

[STL_XUfan]

Fact: Xavier does not lose when frisbee dogs perform.*

*I have done no research to confirm this statement

[coasterville95]

I was really impressed by Stainbrook. Not sure what Justin Martin adds to the team.

There was only one moment, okay half of the second half, when I wondered if they forgot how to play. As I said then "This is the moment where they make this interesting".

I also thought the frisbee dog halftime show was lackluster this year. They were down to only two dogs and they just seemed to go through the same tired routine.

Nice way to cap off tr out of conference season, got the trophy, got Coach Mack's 100th win, still undefeated in games played in the United States. I do think the team learned from that horrid trip. The domination of UC and the great comeback at Alabama show that.

And I met some new friends at Listerman's so that's what it's all about.

Next up - lunch with the Muskies on Tuesday. Bring on the Big East. We have some Amazing teams booked into Cintas this season.

[coasterville95]

STL XU fan - hate to say it but I have seen a loss during a frisbee dogs game. Bucknell in 2006, I think that was the failed Dolemann buzzer beater and we lost by one. Also a game before Christmas curse game.

[xu82]

I didn't really notice, but was the student section populated tonight? I realize it's break and everything.... I went to the Evansville game and it really stood out. Do they make these seats more available and did they get used?

[XUFan09]

STL XU fan - hate to say it but I have seen a loss during a frisbee dogs game. Bucknell in 2006, I think that was the failed Dolemann buzzer beater and we lost by one. Also a game before Christmas curse game.

That's the game when Johnny "He Should Start Over Lavender" Wolf held onto the ball too long on the fast break as time was running out!

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[Fireball]

I didn't really notice, but was the student section populated tonight? I realize it's break and everything.... I went to the Evansville game and it really stood out. Do they make these seats more available and did they get used?

Student section was pretty full, with mostly non-students, but it was full.

[STL_XUfan]

STL XU fan - hate to say it but I have seen a loss during a frisbee dogs game. Bucknell in 2006, I think that was the failed Dolemann buzzer beater and we lost by one. Also a game before Christmas curse game.

I was at that game, however, I did enough drinking after the game to forget the final score. Thanks for reminding me.....

[Fireball]

I though the energy was great from the team tonight. There were times what the shots weren't falling, but these guys were killing themselves to rebound. There's a lot of criticism of Philmore in this thread, but he was one of the guys who was working hardest for the rebounds, and really came up with 3 or 4 effort rebounds.

Stainbrook is a beast...is quite honestly everything that I expected Frease to be.

[waggy]

Stain has been fantastic. Great attitude and works hard. He's gonna make some $$$ playing this game if he keeps it going like this.

I think Farr should continue to come off the bench. He brings a spark, and seems to be good in that role, which isn't the easiest thing for some guys. I have no problem with Philmore's game, but he wouldn't be the same coming off the bench.

[RoseyMuskie]

I was really impressed by Stainbrook. Not sure what Justin Martin adds to the team.

There was only one moment, okay half of the second half, when I wondered if they forgot how to play. As I said then "This is the moment where they make this interesting".

I also thought the frisbee dog halftime show was lackluster this year. They were down to only two dogs and they just seemed to go through the same tired routine.

Nice way to cap off tr out of conference season, got the trophy, got Coach Mack's 100th win, still undefeated in games played in the United States. I do think the team learned from that horrid trip. The domination of UC and the great comeback at Alabama show that.

And I met some new friends at Listerman's so that's what it's all about.

Next up - lunch with the Muskies on Tuesday. Bring on the Big East. We have some Amazing teams booked into Cintas this season.

I'm in no way, shape, or form a Justin Martin apologist, but he was aggressive hitting the boards and had a few nice assists. Anytime you have a small forward collect 8 rebounds, your team will likely win the rebounding war.

There's no doubt he was cold shooting wise (had good looks, just missed), but he added some positives.

Anyways, he truly is the definition of an enigma. And as well all know, we are somewhat stuck with him, as X doesn't have another viable 3. So it is what it is.

[XUFan09]

I'm in no way, shape, or form a Justin Martin apologist, but he was aggressive hitting the boards and had a few nice assists. Anytime you have a small forward collect 8 rebounds, your team will likely win the rebounding war.

There's no doubt he was cold shooting wise (had good looks, just missed), but he added some positives.

Anyways, he truly is the definition of an enigma. And as well all know, we are somewhat stuck with him, as X doesn't have another viable 3. So it is what it is.

Good God, I don't think I've ever agree so much with a single post about a player. That's probably why Rosey was one of my favorite posters on Musketeer Madness when it was my only site for Xavier basketball (before it became a tertiary, nay, quarternary, site).

[RoseyMuskie]

Thanks 09, the respect is mutual.

For the sake of argument:

Player A: 7.8 PPG, 3.8 RPG, 1.1 APG. .389 FG%, .333 3P%, .636 FT%. Average Defender.
Player B: 7.9 PPG, 3.1 RPG, 1.8 APG. .361 FG%, .329 3P%, .721 FT%. Above average defender.

Fairly comparable, right? A is Justin Martin, B is Dante Jackson's Senior Season.

Anyone who can recall my posting history on Musketeer Madness will remember that I was probably Dante's biggest opponent. I felt some of his praises were unwarranted. Just as I believe some of Justin's criticisms are unwarranted.

My explanation? Justin came in more highly touted, and seems to have more talent. And Dante was more of an outspoken, team leader. I can't refute the leadership aspect that Dante brought. And that alone may give him the edge over Justin. Statistically speaking, however, the two are almost identical. Just as I criticized Dante claiming we overvalued him, I'll defend Justin saying we are undervaluing him.

I present this argument purely so we can achieve some balance moving forward.

[waggy]

How do the average minutes compare?

[RoseyMuskie]

How do the average minutes compare?

JMart: 23.1. Dante: 35.3. Supporting my point even more.

[waggy]

The only thing I took issue with Rosey is the statement that Dante received praise. Bitching on the other hand I could get with it.

[GIMMFD]

Boy, Stain had a night didn't he? I also like that Semaj is taking a couple more threes now, I'm just hoping his shooting percentage will rise a little bit...

[Fireball]

I agree withe Rosey and XUFAN09 that Justin seems to be overly criticized, but I think the reason he takes the brunt of that is because he seems to make several bonehead moves throughout the game. It really makes you wonder what it going on in his head out there.

[xsteve1]

Martin played pretty well yesterday outside of a few missed 3's. His defense is much improved (key plays against E'ville and had a real nice tie up on a Wake guy driving to the hoop yesterday) from last year and his handle has gotten better. His pass to Philnore was beautiful. His game relies so much on confidence. Doesn't matter what guys like Coasterville and the other Martin detractors think because Mack seems to disagree with them. Dee's another whipping boy but people have toned down that criticism since he has been playing well since Bahama's. But you better be ready when he has his next bad game the haters will be back saying he's a low major pg.

[XUFan09]

Martin played pretty well yesterday outside of a few missed 3's. His defense is much improved (key plays against E'ville and had a real nice tie up on a Wake guy driving to the hoop yesterday) from last year and his handle has gotten better. His pass to Philnore was beautiful. His game relies so much on confidence. Doesn't matter what guys like Coasterville and the other Martin detractors think because Mack seems to disagree with them. Dee's another whipping boy but people have toned down that criticism since he has been playing well since Bahama's. But you better be ready when he has his next bad game the haters will be back saying he's a low major pg.

Dee is so undervalued because so much of what he does doesn't show up on the stat sheet. That offensive performance had his fingerprints all over it, and the lack of scoring down the stretch had more to do with just not making shots than not having good looks.

[Thor in 204]

Yesterday's game was often a thing of beauty to witness, in several regards. I don't remember watching an X team move the ball better. Defense and rebounding also reflective of individual effort and team's understanding of spacing and how to play in the schemes. Players are more confident in themselves and their teammates. Next hurdle that I see is to get the feel for bringing it game after game in the tough Big East schedule. No reason to think the team won't succeed in that regard as well. Bahamas debacle might be seen as an excellent learning experience for this team.

[RoseyMuskie]

I agree withe Rosey and XUFAN09 that Justin seems to be overly criticized, but I think the reason he takes the brunt of that is because he seems to make several bonehead moves throughout the game. It really makes wonder what it gong on in his year out there.

I agree. He's good for a technical, head-scratching pass, or dribble off his foot every game. His perceived persona does not help one bit either. That's what separates him from the likes of Dante Jackson, etc.

If I'm Mack, I pull him aside and say, "Justin, guys have played at your level in years past and have been loved by X fans. Look at our GA. Have some confidence, put on a smile occasionally, and work hard. The dividends will pay off."

[Juice]

I agree. He's good for a technical, head-scratching pass, or dribble off his foot every game. His perceived persona does not help one bit either. That's what separates him from the likes of Dante Jackson, etc.

If I'm Mack, I pull him aside and say, "Justin, guys have played at your level in years past and have been loved by X fans. Look at our GA. Have some confidence, put on a smile occasionally, and work hard. The dividends will pay off."

He shouldn't have to smile or put on a show to appease fans. And I'm sure he works plenty hard considering the minutes Mack gives him.

[RoseyMuskie]

He shouldn't have to smile or put on a show to appease fans. And I'm sure he works plenty hard considering the minutes Mack gives him.

Hey, I agree. That's why I'm defending him. But right or wrong, that's how a lot of XU fans are.

[XUFan09]

Hey, I agree. That's why I'm defending him. But right or wrong, that's how a lot of XU fans are.

So much is dependent on how well a player performs. What's funny is Tu had a similar demeanor. Usually he didn't show much expression, except flashes of frustration here or a smile there. But, Tu was playing at an All-American level, so he was "cold-blooded." Martin is...not playing at that level so he's "lazy" or he "doesn't care."

[Muskie1000]

I also thought the frisbee dog halftime show was lackluster this year. They were down to only two dogs and they just seemed to go through the same tired routine.

As long as it isn't kids jumping rope I'm good. I remember one year we had like 3-4 different jump rope acts. By the way, does anyone know who/what Peter Rabbit is?

[NY44]

I would like to see Martin and Reynolds become a bit more like Farr. Unlike Farr, it seems the two of them are more interested in making a highlight then doing the little things right. Martin loves trying to make a big 3, even though he hasn't proven to be very good at it, while Reynolds doesn't seem interested in anything but dunking. A mid-range jumper could go a long way for Martin and some back to the basket moves (and less fouls) could make Reynolds a consistent contributor.

Until they develop or change their game in someway, I just hope these two don't hinder our performance with bad fouls and turnovers.

[coasterville95]

Petert Rabbit Halftime Show:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xGeKb7DbChk


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xGeKb7DbChk

[Muskie1000]

Thanks

[Charlesbt4]

I would like to see Martin and Reynolds become a bit more like Farr. Unlike Farr, it seems the two of them are more interested in making a highlight then doing the little things right. Martin loves trying to make a big 3, even though he hasn't proven to be very good at it, while Reynolds doesn't seem interested in anything but dunking. A mid-range jumper could go a long way for Martin and some back to the basket moves (and less fouls) could make Reynolds a consistent contributor.

Until they develop or change their game in someway, I just hope these two don't hinder our performance with bad fouls and turnovers.

In regards to Reynolds, it's clear that you're a complete idiot.

[LA Muskie]

So much is dependent on how well a player performs. What's funny is Tu had a similar demeanor. Usually he didn't show much expression, except flashes of frustration here or a smile there. But, Tu was playing at an All-American level, so he was "cold-blooded." Martin is...not playing at that level so he's "lazy" or he "doesn't care."

Funny. I feel like Tu was all smiles on the court until that fateful day. I know it shouldn't matter on the basketball court, but human nature draws people to those who are happy.

[XUFan09]

Funny. I feel like Tu was all smiles on the court until that fateful day. I know it shouldn't matter on the basketball court, but human nature draws people to those who are happy.

I think both Martin and Tu smile at the same rate when they make good plays or nail a big shot. These occurrences just happened much more frequently with Tu than Martin.

Sent from my DROID RAZR HD using Tapatalk

[GoMuskies]

Damn, Martin's being compared to Dante? He's hit rock bottom.

[bigdiggins]

As long as it isn't kids jumping rope I'm good. I remember one year we had like 3-4 different jump rope acts. By the way, does anyone know who/what Peter Rabbit is?

Anything is better than the viking kids attempting to dribble. They made a halftime show if kids double dribbling traveling and dropping the ball. Even the inflatable fish heads were better. Never thought I'd say this, but the xavier dance team is more enjoyable.

[XUFan09]

I hated the dance team when I was at Xavier. My crew would always take the first row of 116. When that crappy team performed, they would get the first two rows of 116. They took our normal seats, they didn't care about the game, and they were annoying as hell.

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[SemajParlor]

Hate to be that guy, but are we really trying to be PC and ignore the elephant in the room regarding why certain people view Martin and Dante differently?

[GoMuskies]

Hate to be that guy, but are we really trying to be PC and ignore the elephant in the room regarding why certain people view Martin and Dante differently?


Is Dante white?

[XUFan09]

Is Dante white?

Lol

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[NY44]

In regards to Reynolds, it's clear that you're a complete idiot.

Okay

[mohr5150]

Hate to be that guy, but are we really trying to be PC and ignore the elephant in the room regarding why certain people view Martin and Dante differently?

Okay, I'll bite...is it the tattoos?

[LadyMuskie]

the xavier dance team is more enjoyable.

Let's not lose our heads. Maybe you just haven't seen the dance team in awhile.

[NY44]

To put it like the out of touch white male that I am, JMart is a little more rough around the edges, but it's more than that. Dante was always passionate and energetic. He was never the best player, but he definitely led by example.

Looking back I also think he was a stable figure in our transition from Miller to Mack. He gave us some consistency/continuity in a time of transition.

[GoMuskies]

Okay, I'll bite...is it the tattoos?

That's why I hate David West.

[LadyMuskie]

Damn, Martin's being compared to Dante? He's hit rock bottom.

Or, congrats to Justin Martin! Alas, he has been chosen as this year's sacrificial lamb upon whom all blame shall be placed whether deserved or not, but he is not in bad company! Congratulations, Justin Martin on joining the likes of Dante Jackson, Kenny Frease and others who have faced the nonsensical, overwrought gripes of the Xavier nation.

[LadyMuskie]

Okay, I'll bite...is it the tattoos?

Honest to God, I hope it's not that. Tattoos have become so mainstream that the renegades are the individuals who don't have any ink.

Signed,
A Renegade (because those damn things are applied to your body using needles and no way is that happening!)

[SemajParlor]

Or, congrats to Justin Martin! Alas, he has been chosen as this year's sacrificial lamb upon whom all blame shall be placed whether deserved or not, but he is not in bad company! Congratulations, Justin Martin on joining the likes of Dante Jackson, Kenny Frease and others who have faced the nonsensical, overwrought gripes of the Xavier nation.

Yep.

[XUFan09]

Honest to God, I hope it's not that. Tattoos have become so mainstream that the renegades are the individuals who don't have any ink.

Signed,
A Renegade (because those damn things are applied to your body using needles and no way is that happening!)

I know I've seen posts actually questioning his character because of all the tattoos he has. Seriously. Two issues with it:

1) Just a stupid premise in the first place.
2) Every tattoo he has references God or family. Yeah, a real miscreant there!

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[OH.X.MI]

Xavier fans can't stand Justin Martin for all the reasons they loved Brad Redford.

[GoMuskies]

Xavier fans can't stand Justin Martin for all the reasons they loved Brad Redford.

Three point shooting ability (or lack thereof)?

[xu82]

Xavier fans can't stand Justin Martin for all the reasons they loved Brad Redford.

I don't dislike Martin, but I am still somewhat offended by that comment. Brad was an amazing shooter and an amusing guy. He worked hard but struggled on D. Justin has his moments and could be more productive with more confidence (in my opinion). My likes and dislikes are based primarily on their play and are in no way personal.

[XU2011]

I have no problem with Philmore's game.

WHAT? 4 points, 4 fouls and 4 turnovers in 26 minutes plus several weak post moves that turned into blocks. Although I will give credit where it is due- he did pull down 9 boards yesterday- well above his season average of 4.5

[waggy]

He had 4 fouls? OMG!

[mohr5150]

I know I've seen posts actually questioning his character because of all the tattoos he has. Seriously. Two issues with it:

1) Just a stupid premise in the first place.
2) Every tattoo he has references God or family. Yeah, a real miscreant there!

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Just for the record, I do not dislike Justin Martin because of his tattoos. In fact, I don't even know Justin Martin, so it would be difficult for me to dislike him. If he wants to get tatted up, that's all good for him. I really don't care. For someone to dislike someone else because of tattoos is pretty stupid, in my opinion. You can dislike the idea of tattoos, but to dislike a person because of tattoos is pretty shallow. Is Justin Martin one of my favorite X players of all time? Definitely not. But I can pick a bunch of others who would rank below him in all time favorite X players

[bigdiggins]

[QUOTE=LadyMuskie;419759]Let's not lose our heads. Maybe you just haven't seen the dance team in awhile.[/QUote)
Fortunately about as long ago as I saw Viking magic.

[Masterofreality]

I've been a pretty public critic of JMart, but even though he missed shots yesterday, A) They were all quality shots taken within the context of the offense, B) He played hard the whole game, played solid D, rebounded and had some nice assists- one to Isaiah Phillmore on a nifty look away pass.

No problem with his effort yesterday.

[SemajParlor]

I wasn't necessarily talking about the tattoos, but since people assumed it, that has to count for something right?

This was the point I was trying to make..


His perceived persona does not help one bit either. That's what separates him from the likes of Dante Jackson, etc. "


He sometimes does frustrating things, but I've never watched him play thinking he wasn't giving it his all... and for some reason it seems that opposite belief is often reflected on here.

[OTRMUSKIE]

J mart just comes off as lazy. I think his main problem, if you want to call It that, is he doesn't show much emotion. Bottom line is this is just perception, for whatever reason perception has dictated the way we perceive an individual.

[Muskie1000]

I think, IMO, that JMart's biggest problem is his lack of consistency. He has had some great moments and then turns around and makes me want to beat my head on a chair. Now I know many players can be blamed for this but he is now a junior, time to step up and be more consistent. He needs to be a leader and stop playing out of control.

[NY44]

Or, congrats to Justin Martin! Alas, he has been chosen as this year's sacrificial lamb upon whom all blame shall be placed whether deserved or not, but he is not in bad company! Congratulations, Justin Martin on joining the likes of Dante Jackson, Kenny Frease and others who have faced the nonsensical, overwrought gripes of the Xavier nation.

I'm holding back tears. That poor guy. All three of the victims were not living up to expectations at some point. On this team he's about the only one who I think should/could be doing a lot more.

If you're playing well no one cares about your demeanor or tattoos or whatever it is people care about, but he's not.

[Muskie]

I think, IMO, that JMart's biggest problem is his lack of consistency. He has had some great moments and then turns around and makes me want to beat my head on a chair. Now I know many players can be blamed for this but he is now a junior, time to step up and be more consistent. He needs to be a leader and stop playing out of control.

Martin often looks disinterested. Kenny Frease was accused of that as well.

[xavierj]

Martin often looks disinterested. Kenny Frease was accused of that as well.

I can tell you that is not the case. Trust me when I tell you that no coach would play a guy who didn't want to be out their nor who did not give his full effort. Coaches would rather play walk ons then some guy who is lazy and disinterested. Chris Mack seems to get Martin more than most.

[LadyMuskie]

I'm holding back tears. That poor guy. All three of the victims were not living up to expectations at some point. On this team he's about the only one who I think should/could be doing a lot more.

If you're playing well no one cares about your demeanor or tattoos or whatever it is people care about, but he's not.

Oh, well, since you're the ultimate authority, then you should know. Since he's the only one you have a problem with, then it's all okay to dump on him when he's really not playing that poorly at all! Phew. Thank goodness you're in the stands each game to let him know what he's doing wrong. :rolleyes:

[LadyMuskie]

I can tell you that is not the case. Trust me when I tell you that no coach would play a guy who didn't want to be out their nor who did not give his full effort. Coaches would rather play walk ons then some guy who is lazy and disinterested. Chris Mack seems to get Martin more than most.

Are you trying to imply that the coach might know more about these guys than the fans? WHAT!?!?!? No way. The authorities are all on this board.

[Juice]

I'm holding back tears. That poor guy. All three of the victims were not living up to expectations at some point. On this team he's about the only one who I think should/could be doing a lot more.

If you're playing well no one cares about your demeanor or tattoos or whatever it is people care about, but he's not.

But why are these things that people care about at all in the first place? And playing poorly, which I don't think he is doing, is certainly not an excuse or a reason to bring up stupid crap like demeanor, attitude, perception, etc. It's all intangible BS.

[NY44]

I can tell you that is not the case. Trust me when I tell you that no coach would play a guy who didn't want to be out their nor who did not give his full effort. Coaches would rather play walk ons then some guy who is lazy and disinterested. Chris Mack seems to get Martin more than most.

Oh, you mean like Landen Amos?

[OH.X.MI]

Oh, well, since you're the ultimate authority, then you should know. Since he's the only one you have a problem with, then it's all okay to dump on him when he's really not playing that poorly at all! Phew. Thank goodness you're in the stands each game to let him know what he's doing wrong. :rolleyes:

Classically flawed XavierHoops argument there. NY44 really did't say anything that controversial, but because he disagreed with something a fanatic poster like you his argument is automatically discredited. Jmart is not playing up to the expectation most Xavier fans have had for him, not sure how that cant possible translate into peoples perception of him. Ya he's not awful by any stretch of the imagination, but he sure as hell could be playing better. Misses some wide open shots, turn overs, erratic fouls, and still looks lost on defense a lot of the time. Why people don't particularly like Jmart absolutely has to do with his play. Crawford seemed, at least to me, to have many similar personality traits to Jmart, but people loved him because he could flat out play.

And don't give me that self-righteous "oh since your the absolute authority" or "you can't know more than coach." Of course no one is an absolute authority, and no one knows more than coach Mack. We are fans talking on a message board.

[NY44]

But why are these things that people care about at all in the first place? And playing poorly, which I don't think he is doing, is certainly not an excuse or a reason to bring up stupid crap like demeanor, attitude, perception, etc. It's all intangible BS.


Oh, well, since you're the ultimate authority, then you should know. Since he's the only one you have a problem with, then it's all okay to dump on him when he's really not playing that poorly at all! Phew. Thank goodness you're in the stands each game to let him know what he's doing wrong. :rolleyes:

You're both right, he's not playing THAT poorly. He's a starter though, and I don't want starters who we need to make excuses for. I want Jimmy Farr starting over him. I think if you switch those two it's a pretty tough team to beat. Maybe it would make for a tough defensive matchup against opposing SFs, but it's not like Martin is shutting it down.

So far this year JMart is beating Farr in only 5 statistical categories: Minutes, Turnovers, FGA, 3PA, and Steals.

[ammtd34]

I think starting is overrated. If Farr started, it's not like he would get more minutes since his minutes seem to be severely limited by foul trouble. To this point, all starting would mean is that he'd get in foul trouble sooner. Plus, Martin is able to help break a press in the backcourt. With Farr, we'd start Stainbrook, Philmore, and Farr. Playing against a press would be an issue.

Coming into this season, what did people expect out of Martin? I don't understand the argument that he's not living up to expectations. Maybe our expectations were too high when he came out of high school. Are we still using those expectations or are we able to look at a player after four years and adjust the expectations? Because, to me, he's playing better than I thought he would.

[Juice]

You're both right, he's not playing THAT poorly. He's a starter though, and I don't want starters who we need to make excuses for. I want Jimmy Farr starting over him. I think if you switch those two it's a pretty tough team to beat. Maybe it would make for a tough defensive matchup against opposing SFs, but it's not like Martin is shutting it down.

So far this year JMart is beating Farr in only 5 statistical categories: Minutes, Turnovers, FGA, 3PA, and Steals.

You want Farr or Philmore guarding a wing? That would be a defensive disaster. Many teams either play a third guard on the wing or have a traditional 6'5'' or 6'6'' guy. The amount of times that wing would blow by those two would be astronomical.

And I think Martin's defense and rebounding is the most consistent thing about his game. His defense pretty much won the Evansville game for Xavier.

[NY44]

You want Farr or Philmore guarding a wing? That would be a defensive disaster. Many teams either play a third guard on the wing or have a traditional 6'5'' or 6'6'' guy. The amount of times that wing would blow by those two would be astronomical.

And I think Martin's defense and rebounding is the most consistent thing about his game. His defense pretty much won the Evansville game for Xavier.

What's wrong with a 2-3 zone? It worked pretty well last game.

[Juice]

What's wrong with a 2-3 zone? It worked pretty well last game.

1) Zone is for cowards
2) Zone isn't the main defensive formation for Mack
3) XU only uses the zone to switch up looks

[NY44]

1) Zone is for cowards
2) Zone isn't the main defensive formation for Mack
3) XU only uses the zone to switch up looks

So XU is a cowardice team that does not play zone, but does.

We played 2 zones (1-1-3 was weird) very well last game, it doesn't work against every team, but it will against St. Johns.

Also, the old Big East, in particular the 2nd winningest coach of all time, has something to say about point #1. We have tough big men who can make our paint impenetrable in a zone. We saw a lot of that in this game, there were no easy buckets in the paint.

EDIT: because of your edit some of this will appear to make no sense.

[XUFan09]

1) By Kenpom adjusted efficiency, Xavier has the 28th best defense in the nation. They got to that mark by mixing it up with 2/3 zone, 1/3 zone, and fullcourt press, but mostly through halfcourt man-to-man. The 2/3 zone will continue to be a secondary option contingent on match-ups, because man-to-man is working really well.
2) Even in a 2/3 zone, Philmore will get exposed against wings. He'll still often end up faced up with a wing on the perimeter, and the 2/3 zone will not do enough to protect him. In fact, the packline would protect him better.
3) Farr still isn't a great defender. Proposing a primary lineup that includes him in there with Philmore at the 3 would be a weak defensive team when Xavier is winning because of defense. Let's just also start Myles at the 2...we'll score a lot of points but we'll be a vulnerable team on the other end. I don't think this team wants to get into shootouts.
4) Martin has been a good consistent defender this year, and a great rebounder from the wing.

Sent from my DROID RAZR HD using Tapatalk

[BandAid]

Color me crazy, but I wasn't terribly disappointed by any of the shots Justin took on Saturday. He absolutely butchered a few threes, but he was wide open on those shots. I want him to shoot those. If he concedes those shots, he concedes his game.

As mentioned, his defense and rebounding is quite fine from the wing position. And we need him to guard the wing. Can you imagine Philmore or Farr guarding McDermott?! The dude is already going to light us up as is, no need for Farr to foul out in five minutes or Philmore to do his best Jimmy Binnie impersonation.

I actually find myself grousing more about Philmore than Martin. Philmore should be a battering ram - but he's not. You're built like a freaking rhinoceros! Be strong!

[paulxu]

Color me crazy, but I wasn't terribly disappointed by any of the shots Justin took on Saturday. He absolutely butchered a few threes, but he was wide open on those shots.

Curious about those shots. He "seems" to shoot much better when it is fairly quick, and in rhythm after receiving a pass. If he has time to dribble, and is wide open, and sort of thinks about it...not quite so accurate. What were they that he missed so badly against Wake?

[BandAid]

Curious about those shots. He "seems" to shoot much better when it is fairly quick, and in rhythm after receiving a pass. If he has time to dribble, and is wide open, and sort of thinks about it...not quite so accurate. What were they that he missed so badly against Wake?

The first was a brick in rhythm, and by the time he made it to his third miss there was definite hesitation. I think he took a dribble and even looked at a teammate before hoisting his third clanker.

[Fireball]

The frustration with Martin has nothing to do with race, or tattoos, or anything like that. It's all expectation versus performance.

Martin seems to be one of the most talented players on the team, and was billed as that coming into college. He has also been described as lazy as well. Put all of that together with the fact that his head doesn't seem to be in the game at times, and there you go.

Quite honestly, it's the exact same thing that happened with Frease while he was here...

[ammtd34]

The frustration with Martin has nothing to do with race, or tattoos, or anything like that. It's all expectation versus performance.

Martin seems to be one of the most talented players on the team, and was billed as that coming into college. He has also been described as lazy as well. Put all of that together with the fact that his head doesn't seem to be in the game at times, and there you go.

Quite honestly, it's the exact same thing that happened with Frease while he was here...

That was the point I was making. Why are we taking the expectations we had for him coming out of high school- where very few, if any, of us saw him play - and applying them to his fourth year in college? Shouldn't we expect him to be more like the player we've sen the last three years than the player we heard about when he was coming out of high school? If those were the expectations, I'd say he's playing slightly above expectations lately.

[The_Mack_Pack]

What's frustrating about Martin is that he seems to have extreme highs and lows during the same game. He'll have an amazing 5 minute stretch then make a number of bad mistakes in a row. In the UC game he was able to eliminate the bad plays and he hit his open shots. I'm sure I'm not alone in thinking that he was about to turn the corner into an offensive threat after that game but it hasn't seemed to be the case. He'll always provide solid and consistent defense and rebounding though.

[SemajParlor]

The frustration with Martin has nothing to do with race, or tattoos, or anything like that. It's all expectation versus performance.

Martin seems to be one of the most talented players on the team, and was billed as that coming into college. He has also been described as lazy as well. Put all of that together with the fact that his head doesn't seem to be in the game at times, and there you go.

Quite honestly, it's the exact same thing that happened with Frease while he was here...

Yes I agree. I'm hopeful and sincerely doubt that most people actually base their frustrations with players on just physical appearances alone. And Martin, like many before and after him, has certainly warranted criticism of his play in the past. What I do know is that he has been consistently described as "lazy" or "unmotivated" or "not passionate." That's clown stuff. When judging him based on how he plays on the court, I just don't think those things are warranted.