Daugherty's TML column today about the Shootout

[94GRAD]

Actually makes a lot of sense to me

http://cincinnati.com/blogs/daugherty/2013/12/11/the-morning-line-1211-how-classic-is-the-crosstown/

[GoMuskies]

I'd like to see his previous stances on this same subject.

[94GRAD]

I realize it's different every year. He ebbs and flows like the tide on this game/subject.

[ArizonaXUGrad]

Actually makes a lot of sense to me

http://cincinnati.com/blogs/daugherty/2013/12/11/the-morning-line-1211-how-classic-is-the-crosstown/

I was at the game at 5/3rd when Brown hit the 10 foot J to win when UC was #1. UC fans were absolutely terrible both during and especially after that game. This was already a problem in the 90s. That however, is what is fondly referred to as "home field advantage".

[X-band '01]

Daugherty and Andy Furman can both fuck themselves.

They have no problem getting excited a couple of years ago over Kilpatrick's pregame comments with Furman (back when the Shootout coverage was "boring" in the words of Daugherty) and at the same time acting appalled when a fight broke out at the end of the game.

Don't even bother clicking on that link; I'd just as sooner see him slip into complete irrelevance locally.

[drudy23]

Home and home or not at all....easiest decision in the book.

[ammtd34]

Daugherty and Andy Furman can both fuck themselves.

They have no problem getting excited a couple of years ago over Kilpatrick's pregame comments with Furman (back when the Shootout coverage was "boring" in the words of Daugherty) and at the same time acting appalled when a fight broke out at the end of the game.

Don't even bother clicking on that link; I'd just as sooner see him slip into complete irrelevance locally.

He also thought the Reds vs. Cardinals fight was good for baseball.

[Bmuskie]

I was at the game at 5/3rd when Brown hit the 10 foot J to win when UC was #1. UC fans were absolutely terrible both during and especially after that game. This was already a problem in the 90s. That however, is what is fondly referred to as "home field advantage".

Skip Prosser commented on this game and the fan behavior. The team actually left the court without getting the trophy after that game and it was because of the animosity by the UC fans and things being thrown at them. Skip told his coaches to get everyone back to the locker room as fast as possible so they wouldn't get hurt. Thad Matta commented on that when he was here and so did Sean Miller that as soon as they won the game they wanted them off the court quickly so the fans wouldn't hurt the players. As you said it was all part of the rivalry and in the dozens of times I have been to the shootout at UC I have had a whole lot of things happen to (and thrown on) me. You are correct that was "Home field advantage".

[X-band '01]

Even back in 2004 we were listening to Huggins chirping about the students chanting "F UC" a couple of years earlier. That was also the year that Fr. Graham introduced Nancy Zimpher to the Xavier fans and she was getting awkward applause from the crowd.

What's real ironic now is that Fr. Graham would get polite applause and boos from the Xavier faithful and Nancy Zimpher would be getting a standing ovation.

[Milhouse]

I'm sure the UC team would be met with boos if they won in Cintas.

Wait. Mick can't win in Cintas. My bad, forgot he's afraid of competition.

[SM#24]

Daugherty and Andy Furman can both fuck themselves.
They can save time and just fuck each other.

[crolfes12]

Anyone know where to find a video of Chalmers' game winning 3 or Brown's game winning jumper?

[ammtd34]

I thought Chalmers' game winner was from about 17 feet. Either way, I snuck my cousin into the 3rd row of the student section for that game. We had a blast.

[xubrew]

From about 1993 to 2004, probably eight of the eleven games were awesome. I think half of them came down to the final thirty seconds or so. Those games also seemed to have more of a story line to them between Huggins, and UC being highly ranked, and Xavier getting a big win and earning respect, and everything else.

I just don't think that's there any more. The last three years, the game has been lousy. Whereas for years it came down to the last thirty seconds, the last three years didn't even come down to the last thirty minutes. There were about five years where UC wasn't even an NIT caliber team. Their current coach isn't nearly as....I don't even know what the right word is. Conspicuous?? Well whatever Huggins was, Cronin isn't nearly as much of it.

I personally think it's all of that. When you have an eleven year span where for the most part both teams were tournament caliber teams, one of the teams was usually high in the rankings (and that was usually UC), and the games were hard fought, well played, and came down to the final minute, then you've got a heated rivalry. If you have a string of years where it's a huge mismatch and the games are crap, it tends to cool off quickly.

I don't think the fight cooled it off. I really don't think moving it downtown did either. I just don't think it's as interesting. It's still a great rivalry, but it no longer features someone like Bob Huggins, who was a caricature of himself, tournament caliber teams, highly ranked teams, and down to the wire finishes the way it did for that eleven year span.

[LadyMuskie]

Huggins was Darth Vader to our Luke Skywalker. The guy's a villain, but one that you love to hate, and Skywalker isn't a hero without the bad guy. He wasn't/isn't an upstanding citizen, but he was almost a caricature. David West's last year was the year that Huggins had been complaining about the student behavior at X. So, some guys brought a sign that said "Welcome Fellow Scholars". Huggins laughed and loved that sign. He got it. He never took it that seriously. I never thought I'd miss Huggins, but . . .

Cronin, on the other hand, has no discernible likable qualities whatsoever. He's a snake. He throws his own players under the bus, he's underhanded, he's horrible to look at, and just generally is the worst kind of human being. To follow the Star Wars theme, he's like an evil Jar Jar Binks, annoying and horrible, and you mostly just want to see him eliminated at any cost.

So, that right there has ruined the game. Add to it the idiotic move to US Bank and the forced support of The Freedom Center, and the game is doomed. We have bigger fish to fry now. Move it back to campus or let it die the natural death it's begging for at this point.

[Burrcats]

Cronin, on the other hand, has no discernible likable qualities whatsoever. He's a snake. He throws his own players under the bus, he's underhanded, he's horrible to look at, and just generally is the worst kind of human being. To follow the Star Wars theme, he's like an evil Jar Jar Binks, annoying and horrible, and you mostly just want to see him eliminated at any cost.


Wow, just wow. Sorry to hear that.

[LadyMuskie]

I'm sorry you didn't already know it. It's pretty evident to most people. For more on this topic, I direct you to Kahn's I hate Mick Cronin thread.

[Burrcats]

I'm sorry you didn't already know it. It's pretty evident to most people. For more on this topic, I direct you to Kahn's I hate Mick Cronin thread.

Nothing says little brother more than that thread.

Even after all the success Xavier has had in the past decade or so?

I guess some things never change....

[chico]

Anyone know where to find a video of Chalmers' game winning 3 or Brown's game winning jumper?

If you have a dvd of The Run you should have Chalmers shot. Haven't watched it in a long time but I thought his shot was in it.

[drudy23]

If you have a dvd of The Run you should have Chalmers shot. Haven't watched it in a long time but I thought his shot was in it.

And that's the way we like it...carry on

[LadyMuskie]

Nothing says little brother more than that thread.

Even after all the success Xavier has had in the past decade or so?

I guess some things never change....

I completely agree that that entire thread reeks of uc's inferiority to us in every way. Why do uc fans have to keep coming on here? Napoleon complex much? Feel the burning desire to prove something? It's really quite sad and pathetic. But, like you said, some things never change.

Oh, and thanks for the kudos on all our success. We're enjoying it. I wish I could find something on which to compliment uc, but I'm at a loss. Again, some things never change.

[Burrcats]

I completely agree that that entire thread reeks of uc's inferiority to us in every way. Why do uc fans have to keep coming on here? Napoleon complex much? Feel the burning desire to prove something? It's really quite sad and pathetic. But, like you said, some things never change.

Oh, and thanks for the kudos on all our success. We're enjoying it. I wish I could find something on which to compliment uc, but I'm at a loss. Again, some things never change.

Here is the difference...you hate UC, I don't hate Xavier. That is a common trend I've seen amongst XU fans...

Just sucks that you haven't been any good since you lost the gangstas Lyons, Wells and Holloway.

[sirthought]

I've never understood why fans can't just root for their teams without all of the vitriolic, unfounded, criticism. Just cheer your team on and be happy you get to watch hoops. Some of you seem to invent some amazing pictures of our opponent's coaches just to feel like their team is less worthy an opponent.

Xavier's been 6-4 against UC in the past 10 years. That's great, but not dominating. There should be no huge amount of bragging about that. UC even won in Mick's first year, with a team that was barely Div 1. The past three years have all been slug-it-out competitions, with UC winning 2-1. I think there is a lot of work to do to make this rivalry game more so in Xavier's win column and this year will be a fun challenge to watch.

I don't get excited about US Bank arena, but since it's a better choice for a venue than say Akron or Fordham, I could care less if it's there. I am excited about the game. I have seen XU play there twice and had a great time. The teams still have to make plays and I don't see XU losing an advantage. I do understand season ticket holders' position, but UC fans have the same situation. You all sound so friggin spoiled.

Personally, I hope the match up goes on forever and am happy we have a rivalry that puts the game in the national spotlight, if only for one night.

[xsteve1]

I've never understood why fans can't just root for their teams without all of the vitriolic, unfounded, criticism. Just cheer your team on and be happy you get to watch hoops. Some of you seem to invent some amazing pictures of our opponent's coaches just to feel like their team is less worthy an opponent.

Xavier's been 6-4 against UC in the past 10 years. That's great, but not dominating. There should be no huge amount of bragging about that. UC even won in Mick's first year, with a team that was barely Div 1. The past three years have all been slug-it-out competitions, with UC winning 2-1. I think there is a lot of work to do to make this rivalry game more so in Xavier's win column and this year will be a fun challenge to watch.

I don't get excited about US Bank arena, but since it's a better choice for a venue than say Akron or Fordham, I could care less if it's there. I am excited about the game. I have seen XU play there twice and had a great time. The teams still have to make plays and I don't see XU losing an advantage. I do understand season ticket holders' position, but UC fans have the same situation. You all sound so friggin spoiled.

Personally, I hope the match up goes on forever and am happy we have a rivalry that puts the game in the national spotlight, if only for one night.

Totally agree. The one thing I like about this format is it gives me an extra game to watch X where I don't have to travel.
I don't remember the last time X lost 2 in a row in the series and hopefully it doesn't start this year.

[Burrcats]

Totally agree. The one thing I like about this format is it gives me an extra game to watch X where I don't have to travel.
I don't remember the last time X lost 2 in a row in the series and hopefully it doesn't start this year.

Maybe it is just me, but I actually like the neutral site idea. It has seemed to work well for Missouri-Illinois (which is an underrated rivalry).

My only issues are:

1) US Bank Arena needs to be brought into the modern era, the current state ain't great

2) Game should be part of either both teams season ticket packages, or at least whenever your school is the "home" team.

Beyond that seems like a great way to draw the casual basketball fan in the city that isn't necessarily a fan of either team, and a nice way to showcase the city.

[GIMMFD]

Maybe it is just me, but I actually like the neutral site idea. It has seemed to work well for Missouri-Illinois (which is an underrated rivalry).

My only issues are:

1) US Bank Arena needs to be brought into the modern era, the current state ain't great

2) Game should be part of either both teams season ticket packages, or at least whenever your school is the "home" team.

Beyond that seems like a great way to draw the casual basketball fan in the city that isn't necessarily a fan of either team, and a nice way to showcase the city.

Very rational post, public reps.
I do think however you lose the bite of the rivalry, I loved having it on campus, camping out was the best weekend I've had at Xavier, the whole campus is buzzing. Duke/UNC got into a bit of a brawl when Gerald Henderson elbowed Hansborough (sp) yet that game is still played in two of the most iconic arenas in college basketball, I believe that to fuel a good rivalry, it has to be home and home.

[X-man]

Here is the difference...you hate UC, I don't hate Xavier. That is a common trend I've seen amongst XU fans...

Just sucks that you haven't been any good since you lost the gangstas Lyons, Wells and Holloway.

Spoken like a true non-hater.

[fellahmuskie]

What the hell is wrong with some of you? Sports are all about hate. Why do I need to be a good person when we're talking about a game? It's not politics, or religion or marriage, for crying loud. Just good old-fashioned, totally anonymous, vitriolic, venom-spitting message board hate. My god, how a Xavier fan couldn't despise UC from the depths of their soul is just unfathomable.

If I wanted to be a spineless, turn the other cheek, goody two-shoes milksop, I'd be a Butler fan.

[Kahns Krazy]

Here is the difference...you hate UC, I don't hate Xavier. That is a common trend I've seen amongst XU fans...

Just sucks that you haven't been any good since you lost the gangstas Lyons, Wells and Holloway.

I don't hate UC. I hate Mick Cronin.

[Porkopolis]

Here is the difference...you hate UC, I don't hate Xavier..

I wish your fellow fans felt the same way when they hurled verbal abuse (and ice) at me the last time I attended the Shootout at UC. Though come to think of it, I was treated the same way as a Marshall fan at a football game, so maybe that is just how you all roll.

[casualfan]

I've never understood why fans can't just root for their teams without all of the vitriolic, unfounded, criticism. Just cheer your team on and be happy you get to watch hoops. Some of you seem to invent some amazing pictures of our opponent's coaches just to feel like their team is less worthy an opponent.

Xavier's been 6-4 against UC in the past 10 years. That's great, but not dominating. There should be no huge amount of bragging about that. UC even won in Mick's first year, with a team that was barely Div 1. The past three years have all been slug-it-out competitions, with UC winning 2-1. I think there is a lot of work to do to make this rivalry game more so in Xavier's win column and this year will be a fun challenge to watch.

I don't get excited about US Bank arena, but since it's a better choice for a venue than say Akron or Fordham, I could care less if it's there. I am excited about the game. I have seen XU play there twice and had a great time. The teams still have to make plays and I don't see XU losing an advantage. I do understand season ticket holders' position, but UC fans have the same situation. You all sound so friggin spoiled.

Personally, I hope the match up goes on forever and am happy we have a rivalry that puts the game in the national spotlight, if only for one night.


Couldn't agree with this post more.

[Milhouse]

Here is the difference...you hate UC, I don't hate Xavier. That is a common trend I've seen amongst XU fans...

Just sucks that you haven't been any good since you lost the gangstas Lyons, Wells and Holloway.

No you hate OSU (your actual big brother), and OSU fans don't even know you dislike them. That's what is pretty fun.

LadyMuskie is dead on with her star wars analogy. I loved to hate Huggins.... I just hate Cronin. He's not charismatic or likeable or anything like that. I'm sure UC fans don't like Chris Mack...why would you? But he's obviously quite the family man and pretty popular as a person in local/national media. Cronin's just....dull really.

I do feel the rivalry has lost its luster some. I did see a billboard with Semaj/Kilpatrick driving to work this morning and that got me excited for the game. But heck shouldn't I be more excited than just 48 hours before the game?

The fact is really I used to look forward to Xavier's OOC a lot than the A10, simply because it usually had better teams. Tables have pretty much turned now. I'm much more looking forward to BE play than OOC play.

[ammtd34]

Haven't been good since we lost Tu, Mark, and Dez. I know, right? How would a program ever recover from not making the tournament for one year?

[casualfan]

No you hate OSU (your actual big brother), and OSU fans don't even know you dislike them. That's what is pretty fun.

LadyMuskie is dead on with her star wars analogy. I loved to hate Huggins.... I just hate Cronin. He's not charismatic or likeable or anything like that. I'm sure UC fans don't like Chris Mack...why would you? But he's obviously quite the family man and pretty popular as a person in local/national media. Cronin's just....dull really.

I do feel the rivalry has lost its luster some. I did see a billboard with Semaj/Kilpatrick driving to work this morning and that got me excited for the game. But heck shouldn't I be more excited than just 48 hours before the game?

The fact is really I used to look forward to Xavier's OOC a lot than the A10, simply because it usually had better teams. Tables have pretty much turned now. I'm much more looking forward to BE play than OOC play.

The UC fans I talk to love Mack. They hope he stays at Xavier for a long, long time.

Read into that what you like...

[Milhouse]

Still has more NCAA wins and 1st rounders than Cronin.

[boozehound]

Maybe it is just me, but I actually like the neutral site idea. It has seemed to work well for Missouri-Illinois (which is an underrated rivalry).

My only issues are:

1) US Bank Arena needs to be brought into the modern era, the current state ain't great

2) Game should be part of either both teams season ticket packages, or at least whenever your school is the "home" team.

Beyond that seems like a great way to draw the casual basketball fan in the city that isn't necessarily a fan of either team, and a nice way to showcase the city.

Here are my problems with the 'Neutral' site game at US Bank Arena:

1. It's not really neutral. UC has many more students and alumni in the area than Xavier does. They also have more casual fans as the larger school in the city. I know many people (all UC fans) that haven't attended a basketball game on Campus in years, but they go to the shootout at US Bank Arena. Didn't go when it was on Campus at UC, but go now. This is great for UC, but XU doesn't really have that large base of casual fans to fill the seats.

2. The venue blows. US Bank Arena is not a basketball venue. The Cintas Center is a great place to watch a basketball game. It is clean and modern with good sight lines. It also provides a home court advantage, like any decent on campus arena does.

3. It's overpriced. You seem to agree here. Last year I think my wife and I paid upward of $50 per ticket to have seats that were not very good, even though they were lower level seats. I can't imagine how bad the upper level seats are.

4. Fan behavior. We had a lot of UC fans around us that were fine, but in the concourse there was a tremendous amount of trash talking, people almost fighting, actually fighting, etc. It was not a fun environment. You had groups of intoxicated fans from both fan bases, and neither one had to be on their 'away game behavior'. If the game is on campus and I get tickets to attend at UC I know that I am going to have to be a good sport and take some abuse from the fans. Likewise for UC fans attending at Cintas. Not so when the game is at US Bank Arena.

UC and their fans should absolutely like the 'neutral' site. Xavier fans really shouldn't. Because it's not really neutral.

[Milhouse]

Just saw a tweet that Jaquan Parker is coming back as an undergraduate assistant next week.

So a 4 year player for UC didn't graduate and receive his degree?

Shocker.

[Burrcats]

No you hate OSU (your actual big brother), and OSU fans don't even know you dislike them. That's what is pretty fun.

LadyMuskie is dead on with her star wars analogy. I loved to hate Huggins.... I just hate Cronin. He's not charismatic or likeable or anything like that. I'm sure UC fans don't like Chris Mack...why would you? But he's obviously quite the family man and pretty popular as a person in local/national media. Cronin's just....dull really.

I do feel the rivalry has lost its luster some. I did see a billboard with Semaj/Kilpatrick driving to work this morning and that got me excited for the game. But heck shouldn't I be more excited than just 48 hours before the game?

The fact is really I used to look forward to Xavier's OOC a lot than the A10, simply because it usually had better teams. Tables have pretty much turned now. I'm much more looking forward to BE play than OOC play.

1. I don't don't really care much about OSU, but it is true that all fans of schools in Ohio should dislike them. They have actively decided not to play UC, Xavier or Dayton in basketball and are concerned that Cincinnati isn't an "Ohio State" city (which is why they played the Spring game at PBS).

2. I hope Chris Mack stays a while at Xavier, it is good to have to alums coaching a rivalry game. The jury is still out on if he can coach, he was won with Miller's players.

3. The rivalry has been dead since Huggs left. Now that your main gangstas are gone the game is just between two teams that have mostly good kids.

[Burrcats]

Just saw a tweet that Jaquan Parker is coming back as an undergraduate assistant next week.

So a 4 year player for UC didn't graduate and receive his degree?

Shocker.

Xavier's APR over the last 3 years --> 980, 965, 965 Average: 970

Cincinnati's APR over the last 3 years --> 992, 956, 955 Average: 968

Were those two points worth that smack talk attempt?

[xubrew]

I know I need to get off of this, but I think a neutral site could work out great. If not great, then much better than what it has.

If you split the tickets down the middle, and gave each school 8500, then it would be a neutral crowd. By the time Xavier took care of all the season ticket holders and all the students, there wouldn't be much left. Same with UC. So, even though UC is ten times the size of X, they wouldn't ten times the fans because Xavier could manage their tickets in a way that assured X fans were getting them, and vice versa.

I thought the Crossroads games were awesome last year. I thought the Butler v Indiana game was one of the better regular season games of the entire season. I thought the neutral site, with students sections behind each basket, and the fans getting into it the way that they did, created an NCAA Tournament caliber environment. There aren't many games like that. Two NCAA Tournament caliber teams that are rivals (or if Butler v IU isn't a traditional rivalry, they are at least intense toward each other) going at it on a neutral court in a packed environment that split down the middle.

There aren't many games like that. The Crosstown Shootout could be like that. It's not the same as having it on campus, and I can see how playing it on campus provides some things that are lost at a neutral site, but a neutral site provides some things that are lost at a campus site. It's hard to create an NCAA Tournament environment between two NCAA Tournament caliber teams that are rivals on a neutral floor in front of a split crowd. That's what this could be if it were managed right.

The problem is, it doesn't appear to be managed right. I don't understand why they don't include it in the season ticket package for both schools. They should. That right there would fix a lot. Split the tickets. Give one side to UC and one side to X. Just like Oklahoma v Texas or Florida v Georgia in football. Just like Illinois v Mizzou in basketball. BYU played Utah State in Salt Lake City under that set up, and I thought the game rocked.

But, for it to be handled the way that it's being handled, I can see why people don't like it.

[RealDeal]

Maybe it is just me, but I actually like the neutral site idea. It has seemed to work well for Missouri-Illinois (which is an underrated rivalry).

My only issues are:

1) US Bank Arena needs to be brought into the modern era, the current state ain't great



The same can be said about the shoe. It's a piece of shit. Maybe we should just have all the games at the only decent arena in the city.

[X-band '01]

If you split the tickets down the middle, and gave each school 8500, then it would be a neutral crowd. By the time Xavier took care of all the season ticket holders and all the students, there wouldn't be much left. Same with UC. So, even though UC is ten times the size of X, they wouldn't ten times the fans because Xavier could manage their tickets in a way that assured X fans were getting them, and vice versa.

Therein lies the problem, Brew.

You're not going to have too many season ticket holders plunk down hundreds or thousands who get those tickets for the sole purpose of the Shootout. Even if the money for those tickets go back to both schools, event organizers feel they can make more money through jacked-up single ticket sales and "donations." I know that there are also UC season ticket holders who don't like the setup any more than Xavier fans do, but they're more willing to overpay for one game at USBank versus having the Shootout involved in either a season ticket package or other mini-package that involves 2-3 other buy games at 5/3 Arena.

[LadyMuskie]

Here is the difference...you hate UC, I don't hate Xavier. That is a common trend I've seen amongst XU fans...

Just sucks that you haven't been any good since you lost the gangstas Lyons, Wells and Holloway.

Give me a break. UC fans and their esteemed leprechaun head coach loathe Xavier. You included, frosty. If you didn't, you wouldn't be on your rival's message board trying to stir the you know what. Cronin's sanctimonious B.S. sure has done a fine job of trickling down to the masses in Clifton. I'm not buying what you're shoveling.

[muskienick]

Here is the difference...you hate UC, I don't hate Xavier. That is a common trend I've seen amongst XU fans...

Just sucks that you haven't been any good since you lost the gangstas Lyons, Wells and Holloway.

Burr,

If UC fans would have come from rooting for a team playing for many years in the depths of mediocrity and being patronized by their cross-town rivals as "Little Brother," you might better understand how we might feel now that we've enjoyed about 30 years of good basketball, rather consistently get the better of UC on the basketball court, and STILL get that attitude from many UC fans and their coach (who claimed that also-ran teams in the Bearcats' former league could easily win the A-10 --- among other uncomplimentary remarks).

I don't HATE UC either. Many XU fans don't. Seemingly, you know none of us and choose to remember only the words of those of us who express negative vibes about the Bearcats. That just as much like the tunnel-vision of which you accuse X fans.

[X-band '01]

Huggins was Darth Vader to our Luke Skywalker. The guy's a villain, but one that you love to hate, and Skywalker isn't a hero without the bad guy. He wasn't/isn't an upstanding citizen, but he was almost a caricature. David West's last year was the year that Huggins had been complaining about the student behavior at X. So, some guys brought a sign that said "Welcome Fellow Scholars". Huggins laughed and loved that sign. He got it. He never took it that seriously. I never thought I'd miss Huggins, but . . .

Cronin, on the other hand, has no discernible likable qualities whatsoever. He's a snake. He throws his own players under the bus, he's underhanded, he's horrible to look at, and just generally is the worst kind of human being. To follow the Star Wars theme, he's like an evil Jar Jar Binks, annoying and horrible, and you mostly just want to see him eliminated at any cost.

So, that right there has ruined the game. Add to it the idiotic move to US Bank and the forced support of The Freedom Center, and the game is doomed. We have bigger fish to fry now. Move it back to campus or let it die the natural death it's begging for at this point.

Nowadays, the more appropriate analogy would be Jabba the Hutt as Huggins and Han Solo as Xavier.

[nuts4xu]

Nowadays, the more appropriate analogy would be Jabba the Hutt as Huggins and Han Solo as Xavier.

Nerd....

[Burrcats]

Give me a break. UC fans and their esteemed leprechaun head coach loathe Xavier. You included, frosty. If you didn't, you wouldn't be on your rival's message board trying to stir the you know what. Cronin's sanctimonious B.S. sure has done a fine job of trickling down to the masses in Clifton. I'm not buying what you're shoveling.

Sure. What ever gets you going...

[Burrcats]

Burr,

If UC fans would have come from rooting for a team playing for many years in the depths of mediocrity and being patronized by their cross-town rivals as "Little Brother," you might better understand how we might feel now that we've enjoyed about 30 years of good basketball, rather consistently get the better of UC on the basketball court, and STILL get that attitude from many UC fans and their coach (who claimed that also-ran teams in the Bearcats' former league could easily win the A-10 --- among other uncomplimentary remarks).

I don't HATE UC either. Many XU fans don't. Seemingly, you know none of us and choose to remember only the words of those of us who express negative vibes about the Bearcats. That just as much like the tunnel-vision of which you accuse X fans.

I completely understand this point of view.

[nuts4xu]

Burr ignore the venom it's all in fun. Reasonable discussion is welcomed by rival fans, but we get more mouth breathers from other schools on here than anything else.

This game belongs to the fans and should make its way back to campus. This rivalry had incidents and fights when we played the game at the Gardens/riverfront coliseum every other year. It was great when the Shoe was built and Uc had an on campus arena. It was only 13 years ago Xavier moved back to campus, so I can't figure why moving the game downtown was supposed to solve anything but to piss off the core fan base of both schools.

Our AD seems inclined to bring it back next year. The only player left from the brawl is Landen Amos. He is a gangsta no doubt, but. I don't expect him. To start anything like that again.

[paulxu]

This is all so much crap.

Sports, especially high level sports, involves plenty of emotion (including smack talk) on the floor/field/ice.
Every day there are fights of various degrees in sports. It's almost a prerequisite in hockey.
Plain and simple...fights happen all the time. And all the time players/coaches/refs work to not have them happen.

Just because there was a fight in one basketball game, so what. You correct it during play like any other sport, and move on.
If there are excesses (see some hockey/baseball fights where sticks/bats are used), then that is addressed as necessary.
If you have players who fight dirty with sucker punches and stomping on a person's head who is on the floor...then you address those also.

What you don't do, and what makes no sense in controlling emotions on the floor, is move the damn game.
That doesn't help anything. The fan emotions are always going to be there. There are methods to control them if they get out of line (ejection from arena, etc.)

It's all a crock. It has done nothing but feed the press machine with nonsense for 2 years. And neither school, especially X with its overreaction, helped.
Call me when they move a baseball game to a neutral stadium because a fight broke out on the field. Or when Duke/UNC play in Charlotte.
Just because some other schools moved a game to a neutral site to generate more $, or whatever, shouldn't impact the Crosstown Shootout tradition.

Man up...or go home.

[Burrcats]

Burr ignore the venom it's all in fun. Reasonable discussion is welcomed by rival fans, but we get more mouth breathers from other schools on here than anything else.

This game belongs to the fans and should make its way back to campus. This rivalry had incidents and fights when we played the game at the Gardens/riverfront coliseum every other year. It was great when the Shoe was built and Uc had an on campus arena. It was only 13 years ago Xavier moved back to campus, so I can't figure why moving the game downtown was supposed to solve anything but to piss off the core fan base of both schools.

Our AD seems inclined to bring it back next year. The only player left from the brawl is Landen Amos. He is a gangsta no doubt, but. I don't expect him. To start anything like that again.

I was thinking, remember when this game was played in the middle of conference season? I think that could help some with the buzz for the game. In early December most local fans are still talking about the Bengals, UC /OSU football, etc. In February or late Jan, everyone is talking about college basketball....

[Kahns Krazy]

Daugherty and Andy Furman can both fuck themselves.
They have no problem getting excited a couple of years ago over Kilpatrick's pregame comments with Furman (back when the Shootout coverage was "boring" in the words of Daugherty) and at the same time acting appalled when a fight broke out at the end of the game.

Don't even bother clicking on that link; I'd just as sooner see him slip into complete irrelevance locally.

I wish I could rep you X-Band. This is my favorite quotes of all time from you.

[Juice]

This is all so much crap.

Sports, especially high level sports, involves plenty of emotion (including smack talk) on the floor/field/ice.
Every day there are fights of various degrees in sports. It's almost a prerequisite in hockey.
Plain and simple...fights happen all the time. And all the time players/coaches/refs work to not have them happen.

Just because there was a fight in one basketball game, so what. You correct it during play like any other sport, and move on.
If there are excesses (see some hockey/baseball fights where sticks/bats are used), then that is addressed as necessary.
If you have players who fight dirty with sucker punches and stomping on a person's head who is on the floor...then you address those also.

What you don't do, and what makes no sense in controlling emotions on the floor, is move the damn game.
That doesn't help anything. The fan emotions are always going to be there. There are methods to control them if they get out of line (ejection from arena, etc.)

It's all a crock. It has done nothing but feed the press machine with nonsense for 2 years. And neither school, especially X with its overreaction, helped.
Call me when they move a baseball game to a neutral stadium because a fight broke out on the field. Or when Duke/UNC play in Charlotte.
Just because some other schools moved a game to a neutral site to generate more $, or whatever, shouldn't impact the Crosstown Shootout tradition.

Man up...or go home.

And where was the outrage when OSU and Michigan got into a fight? Marcus Hall walked off the field flipping the double bird. Quite frankly, I don't think anyone should have been suspended after that game but what went on there was damn close to the UC XU crap.

[American X]

Daugherty and Andy Furman can both fuck themselves.

WHO TAUGHT YOU THAT WORD?

http://todaysmama.com/files/2011/07/ChristmasStory-SoapMouth-400x300.jpg

[X-band '01]

Schwarz

[drudy23]

I have no problem admitting I hate UC basketball. I have no problem admitting I love it when you can tell Xavier fans hate UC basketball. I see no problem with hating UC basketball. They earned it.

Escalate the hate.

[ArizonaXUGrad]

Xavier's APR over the last 3 years --> 980, 965, 965 Average: 970

Cincinnati's APR over the last 3 years --> 992, 956, 955 Average: 968

Were those two points worth that smack talk attempt?

First off, APR is an utter joke. The player has something like 10 years to actually graduate. The number is a farce. The original comment stemmed from one of the main reason Huggins was axed. His graduation percentage hovered right around the same as most D1 football teams. For basketball, that was insanely low compared to the national average.

Also, Burrcat you have Lyons/Wells/Holloway. When I was at XU in the 90s there was a Bearcat who punched a horse, one who pushed his girlfriend down a flight of stairs, and one who was convicted of selling crack while being recruited as a HS senior. Every school has guys like this.

[xubrew]

First off, APR is an utter joke. The player has something like 10 years to actually graduate. The number is a farce. The original comment stemmed from one of the main reason Huggins was axed. His graduation percentage hovered right around the same as most D1 football teams. For basketball, that was insanely low compared to the national average.

Also, Burrcat you have Lyons/Wells/Holloway. When I was at XU in the 90s there was a Bearcat who punched a horse, one who pushed his girlfriend down a flight of stairs, and one who was convicted of selling crack while being recruited as a HS senior. Every school has guys like this.

With the APR it is basically five years to graduate, or leave the program while eligible.

With the freshman cohort rate, GSR rate, and exhausted eligibility rate, it's six years. Huggins's freshman cohort rate was zero for many years, but his GSR, which is probably the best one to go by, was actually right on par with the national average.

The freshman cohort measures the freshmen that enroll at your school, and graduate from that school within six years. Anyone that transfers out or goes pro counts against it. At the same time, players that transfer in and graduate do not count toward it.

the GSR basically measures the grad rates of players who were involved with your program, including those who transferred in and transferred out. It also takes into account players who left to play professionally. I'm not going to go so far to say UC's GSR was good, but I will say that it wasn't bad. It was about average.

APR does not factor in graduation, at least not directly. It merely factors in eligibility and retention. That's it. You can actually have a grad rate of zero, and an APR of 1000. If a player is eligible and goes pro, it doesn't count against you. If a player transfers out, but has a 2.6, it also doesn't count against you. There was a program that had an APR of 985, and GSR of 22% and a team GPA below 2.0.

UConn, who was suspended from postseason play last year due to a low APR, actually had a pretty good GSR. That's why I thought it was such crap. UConn's APR had more to do with retention than with academics.

[chico]

This has nothing to do with the fight. The fight was just a convenient excuse for those who never wanted to play it here to keep it from coming back here.

[xubrew]

This has nothing to do with the fight. The fight was just a convenient excuse for those who never wanted to play it here to keep it from coming back here.

COMPLETELY agree.

Lets move the Cyclones out of US Bank. That way there won't be any more fights.

[Kahns Krazy]

Since the thread started with a reference to Daugherty's column, I have to say that I think he is a total turd. Did anyone hear him on 96.5 this morning? One of the dj's said they liked his description of Green-Ellis as a "Brick looking for a window" and Gio as "a white glove looking for a magic trick". Fine. Not the worst ever written. But then Daugherty goes on for a really long time about how great that was that he wrote, and how he normally doesn't like his own writing, "you know, like the really pretty girl that looks in a mirron and doesn't realize how beautiful she is".

Dude is so full of himself it hurts me to read his crap or hear him talk. His blog is always painful to read too.

[Burrcats]

Since the thread started with a reference to Daugherty's column, I have to say that I think he is a total turd. Did anyone hear him on 96.5 this morning? One of the dj's said they liked his description of Green-Ellis as a "Brick looking for a window" and Gio as "a white glove looking for a magic trick". Fine. Not the worst ever written. But then Daugherty goes on for a really long time about how great that was that he wrote, and how he normally doesn't like his own writing, "you know, like the really pretty girl that looks in a mirron and doesn't realize how beautiful she is".

Dude is so full of himself it hurts me to read his crap or hear him talk. His blog is always painful to read too.

He is just talented enough as a writer to make himself look like an ass...

[LadyMuskie]

Also, Burrcat you have Lyons/Wells/Holloway. When I was at XU in the 90s there was a Bearcat who punched a horse, one who pushed his girlfriend down a flight of stairs, and one who was convicted of selling crack while being recruited as a HS senior. Every school has guys like this.

Let us not forget the one who tied up his roommate and tortured him with a clothes hanger and whisky bottle - Donald Little

According to this (http://www.collegehoopsnet.com/story/bob_huggins_just_win_baby) article from 2006, UC basketball had 21 players with "significant encounters with law enforcement" under Huggs.

[Nigel Tufnel]

“I just have a vision for the game,” Cronin said Wednesday, “that the game should be about basketball or it shouldn’t be played."

Can someone explain this one to me? If the game goes back to campus, does that mean the Shootout is no longer about basketball? I find it hard to believe that UC fans are buying this garbage. If you peruse their websites, you'd think that if the game is played at Cintas, Xavier fans would rape their women and kill their children.

I had probably the worst sporting experience in my life at the Shoe when I was in college. Buddy of mine's dad got us two tickets for the game. We had good seats for watching the game, but unfortunately, we were seated right in front of the student section. My buddy and I were on our best behavior, but we still had people screaming in our faces, threatening us, throwing beer cans at us, etc. I had my X hat stolen off my head. Luckily, we were sitting among adults and the people around us were apologizing. At one point, someone threw a beer can at us and it went over our heads and hit this gigantic dude sitting about 4-5 rows in front of us. The guy got up and walked up to where my buddy and I were sitting and started screaming at us and threatening us because he thought we had thrown the beer can. Again, luckily, the UC adults sitting around us informed him that my buddy and I were behaving fine and that it was the "idiotic students behind us" that were throwing stuff at us. Even with that experience, the atmosphere at the Shoe that night was really good. My response to my experience was that I wouldn't go back to the Shoe for a game...would rather just watch it on tv...the thought of stopping the rivalry or moving it to a neutral court never crossed my mind.

UC fans on their message boards really seem to think that because of one incident, their fans and players are in mortal danger by playing at the Cintas. Its beyond ridiculous. To me, this is nothing more than Mick not wanting to get beat at Cintas and getting his team an advantage.

“Turning the lights on and putting everybody in the same building stops the mob mentality,” Cronin said. “I think it’s been proven that a mob mentality has people act out of character and sometimes not in the best ways.”

Really, Mick? Guess I've never realized in all the games I've attended that X plays in the dark at the Cintas Center.

[paulxu]

Tell me he really didn't say that. Please.
Not the guy whose players sucker punched and head stomped a defenseless player on the floor.

Either back on campus, or blow it up. I'm so tired of this whiny little baby my eyeballs hurt from reading this sh$t.

[Cheesehead]

Tell me he really didn't say that. Please.
Not the guy whose players sucker punched and head stomped a defenseless player on the floor.

Either back on campus, or blow it up. I'm so tired of this whiny little baby my eyeballs hurt from reading this sh$t.

Agreed. I attended a Crosstown at the shoe when X won (Kevin Frey team I think) and I was treated ok for most part. I only wore an XU hat and was greeted with a couple of F- you's on the way to bathroom at halftime. I never feared for my safety and the idea that UC fans fear for their safety is laughable. It's an excuse, nothin more. I am sure there would be a pretty healthy police and security presence if game returned to either campus arena.

[LadyMuskie]

Either back on campus, or blow it up. I'm so tired of this whiny little baby my eyeballs hurt from reading this sh$t.

Yep.

[RealDeal]

Mick is quite the delicate flower. All the heckling gave him the vapors.

[Cheesehead]

Mick is quite the delicate flower. All the heckling gave him the vapors.

I usually find myself yelling at Mick when he speaks. He is such a douche bag. I guess He actually believes the crap that comes out of his mouth.

[LadyMuskie]

You know, the truly hilarious part of all of this, is that no UC player or fan was hurt at Cintas the day of the "brawl" or at any time before that. It was our Kenny Frease who was treated like the victim of a gang initiation. Somehow, that useless gnome in Clifton seems to forget that it was his so-called choir boys who could have been prosecuted for assault and battery. Not our guys. Not our fans. However, remembering the event accurately doesn't serve his purposes, so he continues to spew this nonsensical bullshit. Cronin is a liar, and probably a cheater as well. He's a whiny sore loser who would sell his soul to the devil to look good no matter who that hurt in the end.

It's time to end the the series. The idea of our players being that close to Cronin makes me nervous. Who knows what tactics he allows his players to use to get him what he wants.

[Nigel Tufnel]

You know, the truly hilarious part of all of this, is that no UC player or fan was hurt at Cintas the day of the "brawl" or at any time before that. It was our Kenny Frease who was treated like the victim of a gang initiation. Somehow, that useless gnome in Clifton seems to forget that it was his so-called choir boys who could have been prosecuted for assault and battery. Not our guys. Not our fans. However, remembering the event accurately doesn't serve his purposes, so he continues to spew this nonsensical bullshit. Cronin is a liar, and probably a cheater as well. He's a whiny sore loser who would sell his soul to the devil to look good no matter who that hurt in the end.

It's time to end the the series. The idea of our players being that close to Cronin makes me nervous. Who knows what tactics he allows his players to use to get him what he wants.

Ahhh....but if you get the UC perspective, X fans were pouring blue paint all over UC fans and Cronin's family and the X players were terrorizing them and knocking cell phones out of their hands and cursing at them after the game. And then Brick threw a trident and hit one of them in the heart....you know....because things escalated quickly.

[xubrew]

Several UC fans ended up in the hospital. As the ambulances arrived to assist those who were beaten into critical condition, hoards of Xavier fans and students tried to block the ambulances so they could not treat the UC fans. They also threw paint at the ambulances.

When they got to the hospital, the doctors were Xavier fans, and refused to treat them.

Really ugly stuff.

[xubrew]

This was the scene outside of the Cintas Center this morning. The game isn't even being played there and it still got this out of hand!! Just imagine how out of control things would be if the game was at Cintas!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xo3FTMCtG6Y&feature=youtu.be&a%5BV=

[paulxu]

Clearly next year's San Diego game at Denver will need to be moved to a neutral site.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/10129112/three-people-stabbed-sports-authority-stadium-parking-lot-broncos-chargers-game

[Nigel Tufnel]

Clearly next year's San Diego game at Denver will need to be moved to a neutral site.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/10129112/three-people-stabbed-sports-authority-stadium-parking-lot-broncos-chargers-game

Don't forget Ohio State/Michigan. After that fight and the OSU player leaving the field flipping off the fans, it's clear that rivalry needs to move to a neutral field or just be canceled.

[Smails]

The UC fans I talk to love Mack. They hope he stays at Xavier for a long, long time.

Read into that what you like...

No need to read into that. I would conclude that the UC fans you talk to are douchebags.

[Juice]

Don't forget Ohio State/Michigan. After that fight and the OSU player leaving the field flipping off the fans, it's clear that rivalry needs to move to a neutral field or just be canceled.

Play it in Toledo.

[Cheesehead]

Clearly next year's San Diego game at Denver will need to be moved to a neutral site.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/10129112/three-people-stabbed-sports-authority-stadium-parking-lot-broncos-chargers-game

obviously! and jack up the prices for and don't include the game in the season ticket package. Da Dah! All fixed!

[xubrew]

Someone else mentioned it earlier, but the fight had nothing to do with it.

There is a trend of OOC rivlalries moving to neutral sites. BYU vs Utah, BYU vs Utah State, the Crossroads games in Indiana, Pitt v Duquesne, Marshall vs West Virginia, the triple-header in Boston at the start of the year, etc. Illinois v Missouri has always been a neutral site game. When Georgetown and Syracuse resume, I believe it will be on a neutral floor for ten straight years.

I don't know what the thinking is. Perhaps they like the idea of splitting the tickets in a bigger arena, or creating more of an NCAA Tournament like atmosphere. Of all the series that have recently moved, the Shootout seems to be the only one that has flopped. At least that's what everyone who didn't go to the game seems to be saying.

I think in most of those other cases, the neutral site actually added something to the rivalry. Having said that, there is no denying that it doesn't appear to be working for the Shootout. When there are 6000 unsold tickets, that's hardly a success. I don't know why it seemed to work well for all the other ones and not this one.

None of those games were moved because of fights. They were moved because they felt it would make for a better game and atmosphere. I agree completely with whoever it was that said the fight was merely an excuse for moving the game. The fans of the teams that have moved the games really seem to have embraced the neutral site. They probably also do a better job of managing the tickets (IE, assuring that season ticket holders get them when they buy their season tickets, and assuring that there is a student section for both teams). I still think the Shootout can be great downtown, but I can't deny that it hasn't been great so far. 6000 tickets is a lot of unsold tickets. When Syracuse and Georgetown resume their series at MSG, it wills ell out in a nano-second.

[GoMuskies]

There is a horrid trend away from playing true home and homes in the non-conference. Having a few of those neutral site games is nice, but it's been WAY overdone. That's part of what's driving down attendance. The home non-conference schedules for most schools are abysmal.

[paulxu]

There is a trend of OOC rivlalries moving to neutral sites. BYU vs Utah,

Last year Utah played BYU on BYU's home court the Marriott Center, located on their campus. It seats 20,951
The attendance noted by ESPN for the game 16,109...about 75% of capacity, and I'm going to assume that was paid, not actual.

This year BYU will play on Utah's home court, the Huntsman center, located on their campus, which seats 15,000. We'll see what their attendance is Saturday.

Maybe they should move it to a neutral site. That might jack up the attendance. I'm pretty sure we could fill the Cintas for UC.