Matta vs. Miller & Both vs. Mack

[vee4xu]

With AZ and OSU #1 and #3 respectively this week, it made me consider who I'd root for if the two teams play in the NCAA Final Game next spring. I have not decided yet, but wonder who each of you would root for if that happens? Also, Chris Mack, is Next in Line and has been casting his lot at Xavier now since Miller left. It also made me consider, how is Coach Mack compared to both Matta and Miller during similar times here at X? Since Matta left after three years, there is only that body of work from him to use as comparison. My take on the second question. I think Mack is as good, or better of a recruiter than both Matta and Miller. But, the Big East being on the map a year before it happened probably helped Coach Mack. I think that Coach Mack's teams practice hard, but am not sure they are as productive as either Matta or Miller. As to X's and O's and game day strategy, at this point, I say clear edge to both Matta and Miller. Some of that may be the result of practices that are not as productive. Either way, Matta and Miler are both clearly top notch coaches and X was fortunate to have both. It is a tough to measure Coach Mack against both of them, but it is the best metric we have at the moment. From an NCAA tournament measurement, Coach Mack and Miller are somewhat similar, with a small edge to Miller for one Elite 8. But, both missed once and Miller had to win 4 games in 4 days to make another.

What say you?

[BigMoeMusketeer]

With AZ and OSU #1 and #3 respectively this week, it made me consider who I'd root for if the two teams play in the NCAA Final Game next spring. I have not decided yet, but wonder who each of you would root for if that happens? Also, Chris Mack, is Next in Line and has been casting his lot at Xavier now since Miller left. It also made me consider, how is Coach Mack compared to both Matta and Miller during similar times here at X? Since Matta left after three years, there is only that body of work from him to use as comparison. My take on the second question. I think Mack is as good, or better of a recruiter than both Matta and Miller. But, the Big East being on the map a year before it happened probably helped Coach Mack. I think that Coach Mack's teams practice hard, but am not sure they are as productive as either Matta or Miller. As to X's and O's and game day strategy, at this point, I say clear edge to both Matta and Miller. Some of that may be the result of practices that are not as productive. Either way, Matta and Miler are both clearly top notch coaches and X was fortunate to have both. It is a tough to measure Coach Mack against both of them, but it is the best metric we have at the moment. From an NCAA tournament measurement, Coach Mack and Miller are somewhat similar, with a small edge to Miller for one Elite 8. But, both missed once and Miller had to win 4 games in 4 days to make another.

What say you?
I'm not now, nor have I ever been, a Mack critic. I'm a big fan and like him a lot as a person. That said, this ranking isn't close: Miller, then Matta, then, with a large gap in-between, Mack. Hopefully that changes over the next 3 years or so.

I think the clunky way his tenure at Xavier ended makes people forget just how good a coach that Sean is. He is a monster and is going to win National Titles.

[waggy]

My problem with Sean is that he didn't get that he could've reached all his goals at X.

Also, that the X administration didn't realize until he was gone that they could've kept him. GG is right about Graham, but for the wrong reason.

[sirthought]

Between the two I'd root for Miller because he's a stand up guy. I would be happy for him if Arizona won.

Matta really holds the edge over Miller and Mack. Outstanding recruiter. Good player development. Good game-day coach.
OSU offers several advantages for the recruiting, but that's why he went there. It's paid off.

I was thinking Mack was a better game-day coach than Miller, but after this past stretch of games, I'm questioning if Mack can light a fire under people when it's needed. Miller never had much of a good flow on offensive IMO, but he did work hard at motivation. Mack is working to improve the offense, I believe, and he always takes great care to draw up good out-of-bounds plays. Both coaches had decent defensive teams.

Miller's strength has been developing guys in practice. His players work hard and he seemed to be a great motivator. I think Mack has had some bad luck with his personnel, but he has some work to do to improve on player development. Mack is a good recruiter and this incoming class will only strengthen the level of competition to get playing time, so were not in too bad of shape.

[sirthought]

My problem with Sean is that he didn't get that he could've reached all his goals at X.

I agree with this completely. Hindsight is 20/20 with the Big East move, but even in the A10 he had some great teams and great momentum.

[GoMuskies]

Name me one time either Miller or Matta has taken his family to a foreign country without passports for all members of his family. Just one time.

I think that says it all.

[kyxu]

I think Miller's best coaching job was his last year at Xavier. That team was pieced together with glue and duct tape, with Dante Jackson running the point and a green Terrell Holloway spelling him and we were a Derrick Brown sneaker from the Elite Eight and definitely could have competed against Nova to get to the Final Four.

It was that last year that it really sunk in what a great coach Sean Miller was and then, bam, he was gone.

[XU 87]

My problem with Sean is that he didn't get that he could've reached all his goals at X.

Also, that the X administration didn't realize until he was gone that they could've kept him. GG is right about Graham, but for the wrong reason.

I am curious as to what you are referring to. What did X fail to do to keep him?

[Pablo's Brother]

I think Miller has the edge. Matta has not - and can't - win big games. Sean is a stone cold killer and will get it done (win a NCAA) before Matta does.

[xsteve1]

If Miller had stayed X would have probably made a final 4 by now and maybe even played for a title.
As for coaches I'll go Matta (Matta's staff was incredible)and then Miller, both are elite level coaches. Matta took X to that next level that Prosser was unable to. Mack is kind of in a reloading mode due to the fallout of the Dez situation and the brawl. I hope Mack can develop into a coach on the Matta and Miller level or at least close to it.
Pablo's Bro. is right that Miller is an intense M-effer.

[vee4xu]

I think that Matta seemingly relied more on his assistant coaches and Miller seemingly ran the show himself. Not suggesting that one is better than the other. It just is. Living in Columbus, I have seen Matta throughout his tenure here. He has it great. A basketball coach in at predominantly football school. OSU basketball has been an afterthought until Matta showed up. Since then, he has recruited high level players, won multiple Big 10 championships, final fours, final games, extremely high winning percentage, makes a bunch of money and flies beneath the radar. Sadly for him, the fans here will talk Orange Bowl from now until that game is played. Then they will dissect the Orange Bowl until the spring game. In the meantime, Thad will hang around the Top 5 or 10 in the weekly ratings and excel both in the Big 10 and NCAA tourney. Maybe because I am so close to the situation, I think Matta is the better coach between he and Miller and has the track record to back it up. He does so while delegating and developing assistants. I will be surprised if he goes anywhere else other than tOSU anytime soon. I have actually come to like Matta over the years, but can't really warm up to Miller. And, Miller would be a bit rough on players in post game comments, whereas Thad seems to critique without singling out individuals. Coach Mack has done some of the same things as Miller, but over the years has toned down some of the individual criticism.

[gladdenguy]

I think Miller has the edge. Matta has not - and can't - win big games. Sean is a stone cold killer and will get it done (win a NCAA) before Matta does.

I'm not saying you're entirely wrong but just for rebuttal.

Thad went to the National Championship game in 08. The year Sean did not beat him in a big game (cough cough Greg Oden that pussy). So one final four appearance and a win in the final four.

Sean is 0-2 in elite 8 games.

Just wanted to point that out.

I don't care for either and don't want either to win because they left Xavier. But thats just me.

[GuyFawkes38]

This is a huge year for Miller. Arizona fans are expecting a Final Four. Without one, Arizona fans will start getting a bit restless.

[XUFan09]

A few thoughts:

My "09" moniker might lead one to (correctly) assume that I graduated in 2009 and thus never personally experienced the Matta era, so I definitely would go with Sean Miller in that theoretical game. Because of this background, I also did not ever pay particular attention to Thad Matta's coaching, so I'm not going to evaluate him and will instead stick to Miller vs. Mack.

Sean Miller also relied on assistant(s). Chris Mack was clearly a big contributor in game situations next to Mack.

I think Mack started off better than Miller as a coach (going off Mack's first two years). I'm not sure if he improved as much as Miller did, though. Their fourth years are hard to compare: Miller had the most talented, well-rounded team I've seen at Xavier (2007-2008) and Mack had a team with no Dez, only two of four freshmen eligible, and Jeff Robinson (a last-minute recruit after Miller's departure, mind you) as a friggin' starter. They both did excellent coaching jobs with what they had, but their teams were just on completely different levels of evaluation. By Miller's fifth and final year, though, he was friggin' fantastic. Mack's fifth year still remains to be seen, but hopefully we'll just call B4A a "rough patch."

Defense has to go to Miller. Offense has to go to Mack. People might forget that even when Miller had plenty of offensive options, his teams would often have scoring droughts. Mack's team have offensively been good, but the last two years are truly missing a wing to break down the defense. Miller's defense was simply top-notch, while Mack's has been just good to really good.

Details: Mack's inbounds plays are far superior to Miller's. Mack's teams have generally come out stronger in the beginning of the second half than Miller's. Miller's teams seemed to start out stronger.

Recruiting: Mack is better at drawing in top talent and Miller is better at evaluating talent (Though it should be noted that they both really liked Jordan Latham...so there's that).

[waggy]

I am curious as to what you are referring to. What did X fail to do to keep him?

The comment made by Graham that he should've paid him out of the marketing (I think) budget, tells me he could've done more.

It's well documented how profitable the program has been.

[danaandvictory]

I'm not saying you're entirely wrong but just for rebuttal.

Thad went to the National Championship game in 08.

Ohio State also beat Arizona in the 2013 Tournament. Instant classic.

[danaandvictory]

Miller's mentality was perfect for XU. He had a deep understanding of the attitude and motivation X needed to punch above its weight in college basketball. He recruited kids with toughness and edge and with that same chip on their shoulder. Not saying Skip and Thad didn't bring in great players, but Miller's guys were just capable of bringing intensity at a different level. He was pretty much the ideal coach for this school, unfortunately he was so manifestly good at his job that it was just a matter of time until someone backed up the truck.

I do wonder if XU did everything they could to keep him. But even if they'd backed up a truck then, he'd certainly be gone by now.

[Milhouse]

Mack has clearly brought in more talent than either of them during his tenure. Dez and Semaj were two of Xavier's highest ranked players in a while. Now a top 10 class next year is huge too.

I'm not entirely sure how much he's really developed players either and obviously we all have some problems with his X's and O's from time to time.

I'm a big Mack supporter and hope he can silence the critics this year, I think as a Cincinnati native and an X grad he's the perfect guy for the job. He's been dealt some tough cards but takes it all in stride.