Butler

[GoMuskies]

I'm sliding Butler in front of Xavier in my predicted Big East standings. They may lose to top 5 OK St today (down 1 with 2 to play), but they've played MUCH better than anyone could have expected so far this year. I'm very impressed.

[GoMuskies]

Tough way to lose a game, but a great effort for Butler. I really thought they'd struggle this year. Apparently not.

[xavierj]

They will always play hard but they have had the bounces so far. They will be sound but they have a walk on point guard, they will struggle as the year goes on. Oklahoma st. Is very talented but not so sure they have a very good coach.

[xubrew]

Butler has looked like dog crap all year long. They struggled to beat weak teams in all of their games before today.

Then, today, they looked great. But lost.

It's ironic, but I'm far more impressed with them today than I was after any of their wins. Really good showing. Wish they could have pulled that out.

The conference is lacking wins of note. This would have helped.

[GoMuskies]

.

The conference is lacking wins of note.

Marquette is up 5-0 on GW. :)

[xsteve1]

Marquette is up 5-0 on GW. :)

That spread looked like easy money. Marquette should roll them.

As for Butler I think Miller will be a great coach, reminds me a little of Matta.

[waggy]

A face only a mother could love?

[gladdenguy]

I'm sliding Butler in front of Xavier in my predicted Big East standings. They may lose to top 5 OK St today (down 1 with 2 to play), but they've played MUCH better than anyone could have expected so far this year. I'm very impressed.

Xavier will be lucky to finish above 8th.

[Retire33]

Xavier will be lucky to finish above 8th.

I'll take that bet.

[HuskyMuskie]

Xavier will be lucky to finish above 8th.

Go away.

[94GRAD]

Xavier will be lucky to finish above 8th.

You really should root for another team.

[floorsweeper]

Butler has looked like dog crap all year long. They struggled to beat weak teams in all of their games before today.

Then, today, they looked great. But lost.

It's ironic, but I'm far more impressed with them today than I was after any of their wins. Really good showing. Wish they could have pulled that out.

The conference is lacking wins of note. This would have helped.


Really...............Dog Crap..............................You know what's really ironic..................?

[xavierj]

Really...............Dog Crap..............................You know what's really ironic..................?

I will take a shot. Maybe the fact that you jumped on a Xavier message board before 9am on a Saturday....

[Cheesehead]

I will take a shot. Maybe the fact that you jumped on a Xavier message board before 9am on a Saturday....

Seriously. Get a life sweeper.

[Masterofreality]

no one was dissing Butler on this thread- just speaking truth- and then sh$&@#tsweeper decides to weigh in.

I'll say this. Kellen Dunham is a tough kid. Gotta say that he'd be way above Semaj in pro development rankings. Don't want to hijack this thread, but...

I'm sorry, folks. I'm not hating, but no pro team is drafting a guard who shoots 40% from the free throw line. Semaj has some huge holes in his game that he has to fix before ever thinking about coming out. That's not to say the he can't do it before years end, but he'd better get himself into an empty gym, stand on the foul line for a few hours and figure it out.

Speading his feet might be a start.

[Muskie]

no one was dissing Butler on this thread- just speaking truth- and then sh$&@#tsweeper decides to weigh in.

I'll say this. Kellen Dunham is a tough kid. Gotta say that he'd be way above Semaj in pro development rankings. Don't want to hijack this thread, but...

I'm sorry, folks. I'm not hating, but no pro team is drafting a guard who shoots 40% from the free throw line. Semaj has some huge holes in his game that he has to fix before ever thinking about coming out. That's not to say the he can't do it before years end, but he'd better get himself into an empty gym, stand on the foul line for a few hours and figure it out.

Speading his feet might be a start.

Dunham was great at Hamilton Heights (hs) as well. I think he average somewhere near 30 ppg.

I don't know if he will end up being better than Semaj, but he looks to be a great player.

[gladdenguy]

You really should root for another team.

Why would I not root for them? Because I have seen them play for the last 2 days and they look like a team that would finish in the bottom 3 that is my prediction.

Not a positive pete like you about things I can't control. Wish I was. Spend more time worrying about yourself.

[Retire33]

I'll take that bet.

Gladden? Money where mouth is? Or are you just stirring the waters like a douche would?

[Cheesehead]

Gladdenguy honestly seems like a good dude. Met him once at Dana's but he is definitely a glass half empty kind of guy. That's just the way he is about XU basketball. I just hope it doesn't carry over into other areas because personally, I would be miserable.

[nuts4xu]

Gladdenguy honestly seems like a good dude. Met him once at Dana's but he is definitely a glass half empty kind of guy. That's just the way he is about XU basketball. I just hope it doesn't carry over into other areas because personally, I would be miserable.

GG is a great guy, but he wears his heart on his sleeve and takes Xavier losses hard. He's a guy that makes Xavier Nation a better place, and we are lucky to have the big fella.

[Retire33]

If all above it true I appreciate the fandom he has. Even so, need to realize it come across immature and futile. Comments from him I have seen lately make no effort in productive comments and sometimes resort to name calling of players, staff, and all involved.

Be productive with your comments to help improve the status quo; not tear it down.

[X-band '01]

Games aren't going to be won or lost because Pouty Paul is calling out Positive Pete (or vice versa).

#specialpressuresonlynicksabanfaces

[blueblob06]

Just heard 3 Butler players will be suspended for their next game. Not sure why though.

[XUFan09]

Just heard 3 Butler players will be suspended for their next game. Not sure why though.

Probably for snorting cocaine off a stripper but not being classy about it. #TheButlerWay

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[Coogles]

Just heard 3 Butler players will be suspended for their next game. Not sure why though.

Elijah Brown, Devontae Morgan, and Rene Castro were all suspended for the LSU game for a "very minor" violation of team rules. All three have since returned to practice and are expected to play on Saturday.

https://twitter.com/zkeefer/status/408277603716313088

[Bulldawg]

Yeah they missed curfew and really blew the LSU game for us. We could have really used the depth in that game.

[vee4xu]

Just heard 3 Butler players will be suspended for their next game. Not sure why though.

I heard they were up to late watching the Celtics play a west coast game.

[Cheesehead]

I heard they were up to late watching the Celtics play a west coast game.

No, they were in the casino!

[Milhouse]

Holding players accountable for missing curfew? What a novel idea.

[casualfan]

Holding players accountable? What a novel idea.

Fixed it for ya.

[Juice]

Holding players accountable for missing curfew? What a novel idea.

Still going on about the casino BS?

Do you know the team's curfew? Did they even have one? If so, did they break it?

I'm doubting you actually know any of these things. Bunch of friggin nerds on this board...

[Bulldawg]

The curfew was 1 am, the coaches waited an hour until the players returned to the hotel at 2 am.

[XUFan09]

The curfew was 1 am, the coaches waited an hour until the players returned to the hotel at 2 am.

Juice was referring to the Xavier "controversy." A controversy only because the whole thing is stupid.

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[Juice]

Juice was referring to the Xavier "controversy." A controversy only because the whole thing is stupid.

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Thank you (public reps)

[Milhouse]

Still going on about the casino BS?

Do you know the team's curfew? Did they even have one? If so, did they break it?

I'm doubting you actually know any of these things. Bunch of friggin nerds on this board...

Must've struck a nerve. Actually if you look at the whole casino thing I didn't post once in that thread, but yes holding players accountable is a good idea. Whether or not they had a curfew should they be out until 2 a.m. when they have a 1 p.m. game? and most likely an 8 a.m. wake up call.

[vee4xu]

I see Butler is playing at Creighton. X needs them to beat Creighton until they can get a shot of them at the Cintas Center. It will be a boost to X's RPI in the meantime. I saw the end of the Butler vs. DePaul game. Butler blew a 10 point second half lead over the last couple of minutes. They just didn't look like the Butler teams I've been used to seeing over the past couple of years.

[GoMuskies]

I'm okay with us tying Creighton for the league crown at 17-1. And I'm okay with Butler going 0-18 in the league.

[xudash]

vee, I tend to believe, assuming Creighton plays the same way they did against us, that they will be like an A1M1 Abrams Tank rolling over a '72 Chevy Vega.

This could truly look embarrassing for Butler.

[Titanxman04]

vee, I tend to believe, assuming Creighton plays the same way they did against us, that they will be like an A1M1 Abrams Tank rolling over a '72 Chevy Vega.

This could truly look embarrassing for Butler.

Public reps. AWESOME.

[Cheesehead]

Butler getting spanked by Creighton and McDermott going off......again. 19 in first half so far.

[XU3232]

Butler is currently being owned by Creighton. Down 19 in the first half. Makes me feel much better about our loss.

[vee4xu]

vee, I tend to believe, assuming Creighton plays the same way they did against us, that they will be like an A1M1 Abrams Tank rolling over a '72 Chevy Vega.

This could truly look embarrassing for Butler.

Creighton up by 19 with 5:50 left in first half.

[X Factor]

Butler down 21 with 4:30 left in first half

McDermott - 19
Butler - 24

[bjf123]

Now 48-24 Creighton with about 1:30 left in the first half.


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[xsteve1]

Starting to think Creighton may be better at least offensively without Gibbs. They can beat anybody in Omaha.

[Porkopolis]

53-24 Creighton at the half. What a beat down.

[Masterofreality]

Creighton is good.

Where have our friends floorsweeper and fired up Karen gone to? Huh?

[X Factor]

Creighton ended the first half on a 32-6 run.

The Butler board is hilarious...

[XUFan09]

Butler, get ye behind the woodshed.

[X-band '01]

Butler - is getting beat down.

That is the Butler Way!

[Cheesehead]

Why, do they think they still have a chance?

[X-band '01]

Actually, they're getting worse than beat down. They're getting violated like a watermelon in Dayton.

[vee4xu]

Unless the Bluejays put in the walk-ons early, they will easily hang a hundo on Butler.

[chico]

I wonder how Butler feels being the Fordham of the Big East.

[vee4xu]

I wonder how Butler feels being the Fordham of the Big East.

I was thinking about this inasmuch as feeling DePaul is the Fordham of the Big East. I think Butler is more like Duquesne to me. But, hey on these kinds of things, no one is wrong.

[xumuskies08]

I like watching Butler lose.

[coasterville95]

Normally I don't enjoy the "Well, at least we didn't lose as bad as YOU did" card, but in this case I'll make an exception.

Might be worth going over to that Butler board, or HLOH.

[xudash]

Here's an example of a "classy" Butler post, done in the spirit of the Butler Way:

Originally Posted by DawgsfoLife

Creighton- nice win this evening, and congrats on having a great once in a life-time player who stayed for 4 years. Now, let us proceed to be real. Your team will suck next year and for years after. Your recruits and bench are a joke. You better hope you make at least an elite 8, or this season will be for naught. Can't wait to play you years down the road with that team sans Dougie (End rant).

It is a fact that companies sometime fail because they grow too quickly. Obviously, you can't make a direct correlation, but perhaps it can happen with organizations like collegiate basketball programs as well.

Butler. Little-time in the Horizon, playing in an historic rat-infested, dusty relic, finds its way to 2 back-to-back F4's right at the same time that collegiate sports are convulsing with realignment activity. Butler. Little Horizon school with terrible fan support, given what it had accomplished to date on the court, decides it can't stay "as-is."

So Butler goes from the Horizon to the Atlantic10 to now the Big East. There are no excuses. Brad Stevens leaving cannot be an excuse. A key player going down can't be an excuse. This isn't about whether or not Butler can eventually stabilize and enjoy success in the Big East. I believe they can do that, but the new coach seems to have their fanbase alarmed at this point.

Either way, they aren't going to have success like they did in the Horizon League - one year in the A10 with Xavier in a down year saw them do no better than 5th place.

0-5. At least Dayton manages to make it to .500 in conference play. The Vega got squished.

I watched the game tonight. Creighton is a classy program with a marvelous home court advantage. Everything about that program appears solid as far as perception and the Big East is concerned.

[LA Muskie]

Here's an example of a "classy" Butler post, done in the spirit of the Butler Way:

Originally Posted by DawgsfoLife

Creighton- nice win this evening, and congrats on having a great once in a life-time player who stayed for 4 years. Now, let us proceed to be real. Your team will suck next year and for years after. Your recruits and bench are a joke. You better hope you make at least an elite 8, or this season will be for naught. Can't wait to play you years down the road with that team sans Dougie (End rant).

It is a fact that companies sometime fail because they grow too quickly. Obviously, you can't make a direct correlation, but perhaps it can happen with organizations like collegiate basketball programs as well.

Butler. Little-time in the Horizon, playing in an historic rat-infested, dusty relic, finds its way to 2 back-to-back F4's right at the same time that collegiate sports are convulsing with realignment activity. Butler. Little Horizon school with terrible fan support, given what it had accomplished to date on the court, decides it can't stay "as-is."

So Butler goes from the Horizon to the Atlantic10 to now the Big East. There are no excuses. Brad Stevens leaving cannot be an excuse. A key player going down can't be an excuse. This isn't about whether or not Butler can eventually stabilize and enjoy success in the Big East. I believe they can do that, but the new coach seems to have their fanbase alarmed at this point.

Either way, they aren't going to have success like they did in the Horizon League - one year in the A10 with Xavier in a down year saw them do no better than 5th place.

0-5. At least Dayton manages to make it to .500 in conference play. The Vega got squished.

I watched the game tonight. Creighton is a classy program with a marvelous home court advantage. Everything about that program appears solid as far as perception and the Big East is concerned.
I'm never a fan of generalizing an entire fanbase because of one (or even several) irrational online posters. Every program has those. That said, talk about the pot calling the kettle black...

And I agree. After watching that game on Sunday, I too think that Creighton is much better positioned for long term success in the Big East than Butler.

[Milhouse]

You really have to wonder if perhaps Stevens saw this coming?

He had Horizon Level Recruits going into the Big East....I really do like him as a coach and maybe he's not the kind of guy to shy away from competition. But honestly we all know he's incredibly smart. Looking at Butler right now the smartest possible thing he could've done is accept another job before he wasn't as attractive at the college level.

[Masterofreality]

"Hello......Is Owen there?

"Owen who?"

"Owen Five!!!!!!!!!!" (Laughter ensues)

Welcome to Big Boy Basketball, floorsweeper.

[BMoreX]

Saw a tweet that McDermott had the same amount of points as Butlers team did in the first half.

[XUFan09]

Saw a tweet that McDermott had the same amount of points as Butlers team did in the first half.

Yup, 24-24. It was awesome.

[paulxu]

I guess I didn't have to worry about who would take the criers place.

[GoMuskies]

Creighton is now 15-2 and all but one of their 15 wins have been by double digits. They've also won their first 5 Big East games by an average of 17 points. Those stats make Sunday's loss a bit easier to take.

[danaandvictory]

Creighton is now 15-2 and all but one of their 15 wins have been by double digits. They've also won their first 5 Big East games by an average of 17 points. Those stats make Sunday's loss a bit easier to take.

The worthlessness of the human polls is obvious when you consider that the AP currently has Cincinnati, Louisville, Memphis, UMass, a 4-loss Kansas team, Ohio State (who has beaten no one of note), etc. ahead of them.

I would take Creighton by double digits on a neutral floor against Memphis.

[nuts4xu]

From what I have seen, Creighton is easily the best team in the Big East. They are poised for a BE championship and I don't see Nova or anyone else stopping them.

[bleedXblue]

From what I have seen, Creighton is easily the best team in the Big East. They are poised for a BE championship and I don't see Nova or anyone else stopping them.

Completely agree

They are very good and have lots of weapons


Next year will be different....but for now, they are the best team in the league IMHO

[nuts4xu]

I have been less than impressed with the rest of the Big East. Nova, Georgetown, Marquette (picked to win it) all have had their moments. Nova is very good too, and will win a lot of games. But Creighton looks dominant and like they can beat you a number of different ways. McDermott is a match up problem for any team in country, let alone this league. It is really tough to envision a team not named Creighton finishing ahead of them in the standings.

[xubrew]

The worthlessness of the human polls is obvious when you consider that the AP currently has Cincinnati, Louisville, Memphis, UMass, a 4-loss Kansas team, Ohio State (who has beaten no one of note), etc. ahead of them.

I would take Creighton by double digits on a neutral floor against Memphis.

I agree that they would trash Memphis on a neutral floor, but here is the thing. Memphis has two quality wins at Louisville and against Oklahoma State on a neutral floor. That blows away anything that Creighton has done. So, it's not just the voters, but the selection committee members that would value Memphis more at this point.

We see it all the time. What is on the profile is what matters. Creighton's two best wins are probably against Cal and Xavier, both were at home. Saint Joe's and Arizona State are likely NIT teams, and those are their best wins away from home. Memphis has two wins against solid tournament teams, and one was a true road win at Louisville and the other was a neutral win against Oklahoma State.

I'm not disagreeing with your assessment that Creighton is a better team. I think they are the better team. I'm merely explaining that I believe the voters, and more importantly the selection committee members, would value Memphis more at this point.

[xudash]

Part of what we're living with here are the internal perceptions that exist within the Big East itself: C7 plus the new 3, with certain members of the C7 having been perceived to be poised with BCS-laden rosters to plow forward.

Marquette was anointed. Georgetown was regarded as being formidable. As far as Georgetown and Marquette are concerned, personnel losses have hurt them badly. It will be interesting to see what transpires from here, but Georgetown, after tonight, must find a way to get back on a consistently winning track. Marquette may already be toast. Villanova? They're holding up the old guard's end of things, and doing quite nicely doing that.

Otherwise, it may have been about an attitude that said "to hell with the upstarts"; they have to earn their way into this thing over time, as they grow in stature out of their mid-majorish pasts. Something to that effect.

Creighton? Um, they obviously are loaded. They have nothing to wait for this season and they are proving that now. 17k plus fans in a beautiful arena. A roster that is ready to do serious damage now. Creighton simply has to find a way to go deep in the tournament this year.

Xavier? Way too much focus on last year's anomaly and this year's trip to the islands. Xavier has been recruiting and playing at a high level for years. With Mack guiding continuous improvement along the way, Xavier will chalk-up a successful season and should make some noise in the Tournament this year, and with a relatively youthful team.

The old guard are watching as two out of the three new kids flex their muscles this season. Long way to go, but not a bad trend line so far, though I hope that trend line includes Georgetown finding its legs so that the Big East gets 4 into the Dance: two from the old and two from the new.

Butler gets to stay home and give their dog a bath.

[xubrew]

I thought Butler stunk after watching them in their first few games.

Then, after watching them play in Orlando, I felt they were capable of being decent.

After seeing them against Villanova, I thought they were decent, despite the loss.

Now, I think they stink again.

This means they'll probably win out. Every time I think I've got them figured out, they do the opposite.

[XUFan09]

I think people are underestimating Villanova because they don't meet the "eye test" as well as Creighton. That's because their offense is really good but not great, and people miss just how elite their defense is. Their defense is almost as good as Creighton's offense, and their offense is probably better than Creighton's defense. Xavier can win this league, but those top two opponents are equally formidable.

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[LA Muskie]

Part of what we're living with here are the internal perceptions that exist within the Big East itself: C7 plus the new 3, with certain members of the C7 having been perceived to be poised with BCS-laden rosters to plow forward.

Marquette was anointed. Georgetown was regarded as being formidable. As far as Georgetown and Marquette are concerned, personnel losses have hurt them badly. It will be interesting to see what transpires from here, but Georgetown, after tonight, must find a way to get back on a consistently winning track. Marquette may already be toast. Villanova? They're holding up the old guard's end of things, and doing quite nicely doing that.

Otherwise, it may have been about an attitude that said "to hell with the upstarts"; they have to earn their way into this thing over time, as they grow in stature out of their mid-majorish pasts. Something to that effect.

Creighton? Um, they obviously are loaded. They have nothing to wait for this season and they are proving that now. 17k plus fans in a beautiful arena. A roster that is ready to do serious damage now. Creighton simply has to find a way to go deep in the tournament this year.

Xavier? Way too much focus on last year's anomaly and this year's trip to the islands. Xavier has been recruiting and playing at a high level for years. With Mack guiding continuous improvement along the way, Xavier will chalk-up a successful season and should make some noise in the Tournament this year, and with a relatively youthful team.

The old guard are watching as two out of the three new kids flex their muscles this season. Long way to go, but not a bad trend line so far, though I hope that trend line includes Georgetown finding its legs so that the Big East gets 4 into the Dance: two from the old and two from the new.

Butler gets to stay home and give their dog a bath.
I'm just not so sure this is true. Creighton has won big at home, but as Brew points out they haven't really done anything notable away from home. And that's one hell of a home court advantage they have over there.

As for us? You can't really just throw out an entire season and 20% of this season because you don't like those benchmarks. We're certainly better than folks thought we would be pre-season. But I feel like that applies just as much internally (Xavier Nation) as externally. Maybe we're recognizing that faster internally, but that's to be expected.

Nova is good. Real good. As 09 points out, they don't "look" as good because they play a different (and far less fun) brand of basketball. But that's a brand of basketball built to win in March. Creighton's? I'm not sure they can afford an off night defensively. Georgetown is under-performing. Again. As usual. But their personnel situation has been a mess most of the season. Marquette? Well...you've got me there. But on paper they should be better. (Although their worst loss is to RPI #60 ASU on the road and they do check in at #54 on KenPom's ratings).

The preseason rankings were Marquette, Georgetown, Creighton, Nova, Providence, Xavier, Seton Hall, Butler and DePaul. I think they nailed the bottom 3 (perhaps the easy part) of which 2 were traditional Big East members. Marquette and Georgetown have underperformed so far, but they are talented and easily could go on runs. Creighton may have been slightly under-appreciated, but I'll have to see them win a few on the road before I join that club. If you ask me, it was Villanova (a traditional Big East team) that has the most to complain about.

[XUFan09]

I agree that you can't throw out an entire season and part of this season, but you also can't throw out all the seasons before that. More than anything, you can't throw out the context. I don't expect casual fans of other teams to know that context, but those on message boards are a different story. And I agree, Villanova probably has the greatest right to be upset. They were picked as a bubble team, which is crazy when you think about it.

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[GoMuskies]

I think it's pretty apparent by this point that Creighton and Villanova are 1 and 1A, and I will be surprised if it does not stay that way the rest of the year. They should both end up at least 14-4 or better (and I think there's a great chance X delivers one of the losses for both). If Xavier can win tonight, there will be a very, very solid case for Xavier as clear #3, but our Muskies need to mix in a conference road win or two before I'll get TOO excited about our prospects.

[Masterofreality]

Villanova is damn good...just more blue collar and less spectacular than Creighton. Those will be very good games between those two and the last 3 vs. Xavier.

That being said, every game on the other guy's home court will be tough in this league. The Fordhams and Dookanes are gone.

[LA Muskie]

I think it's pretty apparent by this point that Creighton and Villanova are 1 and 1A, and I will be surprised if it does not stay that way the rest of the year. They should both end up at least 14-4 or better (and I think there's a great chance X delivers one of the losses for both). If Xavier can win tonight, there will be a very, very solid case for Xavier as clear #3, but our Muskies need to mix in a conference road win or two before I'll get TOO excited about our prospects.
I agree. I think a win today makes us a relatively solid 3 for now -- as solid as a 4-1 team can be with all 4 wins at home. The schedule-makers gave us a great chance to build some confidence at home, but teams are going to succeed or fail in this conference on the road.

[DoubleD86]

For those that care about this stuff, KenPom ranks the Big East teams as such:
1. Villanova (3 overall, 22 offense, 8 defense)
2. Creighton (6 overall, 1 offense, 51 defense)
3. Xavier (26 overall, 23 offense, 64 defense)
4. GTown (48 overall, 72 offense, 53 defense)

So these ratings line up pretty well with what everyone has been saying: Villanova and Creighton 1A and 1B, then a gap before Xavier at 3 and another gap before GTown at 4.

[XUFan09]

So I was checking out RPI Forecast again, and Butler has a good chance of being considered a "bad team." If they go 5-8 or worse the rest of the way, they will be outside the top 100, and if they go 6-7, they still might be, as their RPI rank is projected 98th at that point. Keep in mind that they're already (-3) at home, so 5-8 is very plausible. And people were talking about them as a tournament team lol.

I always referred to them as a solid NIT team...that might even turn out to be highly over-estimating them!

[bleedXblue]

They played well early, and that threw some people off.

I think most college bball fans before the start of the season didnt expect a whole lot from them this year.

[xavierj]

They played well early, and that threw some people off.

I think most college bball fans before the start of the season didnt expect a whole lot from them this year.

Butler could very easily be 3-2 in the league. They lost three games in OT and were winning all three late.

[Milhouse]

Yeah but all 3 of those were at Home.

If they cant close out nail biters at home they won't on the road.

[X-band '01]

If they won all their close games, they'd be called UMass.

[waggy]

Pomeroy ranks them 91, with their record on the unluckier side of the scale.

[waggy]

They had to go to OT to decide another one, but it looks like they are going to get a W against Marquette.

[Retire33]

Xavier will be lucky to finish above 8th.

We tried to talk him off the ledge. I think his computer had diarrhea of typeface there. He HAD to type Butler and CPU spit out Xavier.

[Masterofreality]

Damn..

So close....so close to 0-7.

Whistle..Whistle...floorsweeper...here boy!

[BENWAR]

Xavier will be lucky to finish above 8th.

Oops!!

[Masterofreality]

Meanwhile, Butler shaves their heads...then promptly lose to St. Johns...at home. Now 1-7. Oh, so close to allowing us to continue the Owen joke.

Butler has rapidly become the udump of the Big East. Overblown, full of themselves fan base, win a few nice games in the non-conference, then get blown out in the league...oh, and finish 2nd to Xavier in recruits.

Welcome to the cellar.

[X-band '01]

Maybe they should have been spayed and neutered instead.

They're also a whopping -4 in terms of home losses/road wins. That will get you a quick one-way ticket to the cellar.

[HoyaParanoia]

Meanwhile, Butler shaves their heads...then promptly lose to St. Johns...at home. Now 1-7. Oh, so close to allowing us to continue the Owen joke.

Butler has rapidly become the udump of the Big East. Overblown, full of themselves fan base, win a few nice games in the non-conference, then get blown out in the league...oh, and finish 2nd to Xavier in recruits.


They played in the national championship game twice. Came within inches of the title.

Xavier, on the other hand, can only dream of matching those accomplishments.

They are allowed 1 re-building year with a new coach.

[Masterofreality]

They are allowed 1 re-building year with a new coach.

The only thing in the post that is pertinent, since we all only live in the present, but it will be more than one year. Xavier took their 2 top recruiting targets.

Butler is set up to suck for a long long time.

Nice effort at Creighton last night Hoya. :facepalm:

[xudash]

They played in the national championship game twice. Came within inches of the title.

Xavier, on the other hand, can only dream of matching those accomplishments.

They are allowed 1 re-building year with a new coach.

It's not my roll to be the Internet Policeman here, but I seriously suggest that this guy should be shown the sideline, just as floorsweeper was shown it.

Whomever this poor bastard is, he isn't adding anything to the discourse around here, and he obviously only comes here with his feeble efforts to stir things up.

Again, this is a Xavier basketball message board. That means the discussion that takes place here should be constructive dialogue about Xavier basketball and other topics that reside on the periphery of that. Constructive means positive comments or constructive criticism, as well as good natured smack, when appropriate and warranted.

In this guys case, he is even a bigger idiot than floorsweeper, because at least floorsweeper came here as a Butler fan; this poor bastard has placed such little value on his time and life that he's decided to crawl over here as a UC or UD fan - or maybe floorsweeper - disguised as a Georgetown fan. I hope that's the case, because he's a truly sad character if he actually is a Georgetown fan.

At any rate, the standard should should focus on the underlying intent for communicating here. He has no intent to communicate here in an additive way.

Blow him out.

[muskienick]

It's not my roll to be the Internet Policeman here, but I seriously suggest that this guy should be shown the sideline, just as floorsweeper was shown it.

Whomever this poor bastard is, he isn't adding anything to the discourse around here, and he obviously only comes here with his feeble efforts to stir things up.

Again, this is a Xavier basketball message board. That means the discussion that takes place here should be constructive dialogue about Xavier basketball and other topics that reside on the periphery of that. Constructive means positive comments or constructive criticism, as well as good natured smack, when appropriate and warranted.

In this guys case, he is even a bigger idiot than floorsweeper, because at least floorsweeper came here as a Butler fan; this poor bastard has placed such little value on his time and life that he's decided to crawl over here as a UC or UD fan - or maybe floorsweeper - disguised as a Georgetown fan. I hope that's the case, because he's a truly sad character if he actually is a Georgetown fan.

At any rate, the standard should should focus on the underlying intent for communicating here. He has no intent to communicate here in an additive way.

Blow him out.

Amen to that, Dash!

[OTRMUSKIE]

Stop replying to him. Let him keep posting all he wants. If he isn't getting a response then there will be no reason for him to post. He is getting a huge joy out of saying something and reading your responses. JUST IGNORE HIM! Why is that soooo hard to do?

[xudash]

Stop replying to him. Let him keep posting all he wants. If he isn't getting a response then there will be no reason for him to post. He is getting a huge joy out of saying something and reading your responses. JUST IGNORE HIM! Why is that soooo hard to do?

I'm not replying to him. Otherwise, I used one of his responses to write what I wrote.

As for him "getting a huge joy" out the responses he receives, I believe that actually is more about the other possibility: our fans are enjoying kicking his teeth in every time he posts something stupid, which is about every time he posts. On that note, I guess that's why he hasn't been banned yet.

In the meantime, off to 'Ignoreland' he goes.

[LA Muskie]

As for him "getting a huge joy" out the responses he receives, I believe that actually is more about the other possibility: our fans are enjoying kicking his teeth in every time he posts something stupid, which is about every time he posts.
I'm not enjoying it all that much. It has hijacked nearly every other worthwhile thread.

[GoMuskies]

His presence, indeed, blows goats.

[waggy]

Stop replying to him. Let him keep posting all he wants. If he isn't getting a response then there will be no reason for him to post. He is getting a huge joy out of saying something and reading your responses. JUST IGNORE HIM! Why is that soooo hard to do?


Why would you defend a blatent troll?

[OTRMUSKIE]

I'm not defending him at all! Did you not read what I wrote. Stop responding to him! If he leaves a response nobody should acknowledge him. You really think whatever you say will make him mad or feel like he just got served? He is laughing his ass off at anybody that takes his bait. It's amazing how naive some people are.

[paulxu]

In this guys case, he is even a bigger idiot than floorsweeper,

Whoa now. Let's not get carried away.

[xudash]

I'm not defending him at all! Did you not read what I wrote. Stop responding to him! If he leaves a response nobody should acknowledge him. You really think whatever you say will make him mad or feel like he just got served? He is laughing his ass off at anybody that takes his bait. It's amazing how naive some people are.

I read every word of what you wrote. You apparently failed to read what I wrote. I made it clear that I don't respond to him. I also now have him on ignore, given that it may be the case that no action is taken against him. I believe I was pretty clear in making the point that he deserves a timeout.

You're stating your opinion; he can laugh his ass off all he wants, but that doesn't mean that some posters here aren't getting satisfaction from pasting him.

Finally, if you're so adamant about believing that he is enjoying himself way too much here at our expense, you should be well beyond "just put him on ignore status" at this point.

[LA Muskie]

Dash in general I agree with you. But almost as bad as reading his posts is reading everyone else's posts TO him. And I'd prefer not put valued Muskie contributors on ignore.

Then again I guess if they are enjoying themselves they should be entitled to the pleasure. I just don't get anything out of it myself. Quite the opposite in fact.

[OTRMUSKIE]

Sorry dash that was targeted towards waggy who said I was defending him

[JTG]

To get back on topic Yes Butler was pretty good on their 2 final four runs but they we're phenomenally lucky in those stretches. The recent slide and loss after loss in ot are the luck gods getting even. That and they would have trouble out rebounding a cyo team.

[HoyaParanoia]

To get back on topic Yes Butler was pretty good on their 2 final four runs but they we're phenomenally lucky in those stretches. The recent slide and loss after loss in ot are the luck gods getting even. That and they would have trouble out rebounding a cyo team.


Xavier would trade places with them.

[94GRAD]

Xavier would trade places with them.


Nope

[Nildogg]

Meanwhile, Butler shaves their heads...then promptly lose to St. Johns...at home. Now 1-7. Oh, so close to allowing us to continue the Owen joke.

Butler has rapidly become the udump of the Big East. Overblown, full of themselves fan base, win a few nice games in the non-conference, then get blown out in the league...oh, and finish 2nd to Xavier in recruits.

Welcome to the cellar.

I don't expect friendly comments around here, but this is about as off base as some of the idiots on our own message boards. Zero perspective of the situation at hand.

BTW, the shaved heads were in honor of the cancer awareness day, and honoring several family members of players who passed away from cancer this year.

[Masterofreality]

I don't expect friendly comments around here, but this is about as off base as some of the idiots on our own message boards. Zero perspective of the situation at hand.

BTW, the shaved heads were in honor of the cancer awareness day, and honoring several family members of players who passed away from cancer this year.

Off base? How, exactly? Good for them in showing solidarity with cancer victims...I didn't demean them for shaving their heads, merely pointed it out with the thought that that type of motivation should cause them to play better....it did not.

Pray tell us what the situation actually is that is at hand? I see a team that is 1-7 and sinking as fast as a 2,000 lb boulder in a lake. I also see a program that cannot land their top priority recruits. I see a program that is relying on an unorthodox 3 point shooter to do all their scoring and a former walk-on point guard. Butler is one close OT win from being 0-8 and with 3 straight road games coming up, the prospects of being 1-10 are real.

No idiocy. Just fact.

[GoMuskies]

Butler was in the championship game twice in the last five years. UDump went to the Final Four before most of us here were born and lost by approximately 100 points to UCLA.

Advantage: Butler

[xudash]

Dash in general I agree with you. But almost as bad as reading his posts is reading everyone else's posts TO him. And I'd prefer not put valued Muskie contributors on ignore.

Then again I guess if they are enjoying themselves they should be entitled to the pleasure. I just don't get anything out of it myself. Quite the opposite in fact.

I understand. I probably didn't need to quote his sorry ass to state what I originally stated about blowing him out. Sorry about that. He's on ignore for me, so he's off my radar regardless.

[xudash]

Sorry dash that was targeted towards waggy who said I was defending him

No problem.

[Nildogg]

Off base? How, exactly? Good for them in showing solidarity with cancer victims...I didn't demean them for shaving their heads, merely pointed it out with the thought that that type of motivation should cause them to play better....it did not.

Pray tell us what the situation actually is that is at hand? I see a team that is 1-7 and sinking as fast as a 2,000 lb boulder in a lake. I also see a program that cannot land their top priority recruits. I see a program that is relying on an unorthodox 3 point shooter to do all their scoring and a former walk-on point guard. Butler is one close OT win from being 0-8 and with 3 straight road games coming up, the prospects of being 1-10 are real.

No idiocy. Just fact.

I can agree with you in a way, that you would hope that the motivation should have pushed them to play harder, it was definitely the lack of fire and effort that disgusted me.

The reality is that this team is in the midst of a transition with coaching, and having lost arguably our most important player in Roosevelt Jones. His defensive and offensive presence would have made a big difference in this years W/L record, and overall perception of the team.

It sucks to lose your coach, let alone at the peak of the recruiting season, so its no wonder that we lost our top priority recruits... no getting around that. Absolutely the worst time possible, with those guys on the line. Afterall, it was our time to cash in on the F4 runs, and the momentum was completely shot. And yes, it was like a final curb stomp for them to end up with X.

Since you are talking about "close", lets talk about the flip side of your argument there, that butler is 4 OT wins, a 2 pt. loss to OKSt away from being 16-4, and wins against two top 10 teams... I don't think you'd be trashing the program as a clone of UD anyways. If thats just rival hate, then OK, but I hope you are smarter than thinking we've sunk so quickly to their level for any more than just this anomaly of a season.:look:

That said, I know we are bad this year. its frustrating seeing those close games and knowing we were just a possession or two away in each of those games from having such a different outcome. Our jackass fans are losing their minds, so if you want some entertainment and even worse doomsday comments, just come visit our boards.

[Masterofreality]

I can agree with you in a way, that you would hope that the motivation should have pushed them to play harder, it was definitely the lack of fire and effort that disgusted me.

The reality is that this team is in the midst of a transition with coaching, and having lost arguably our most important player in Roosevelt Jones. His defensive and offensive presence would have made a big difference in this years W/L record, and overall perception of the team.

It sucks to lose your coach, let alone at the peak of the recruiting season, so its no wonder that we lost our top priority recruits... no getting around that. Absolutely the worst time possible, with those guys on the line. Afterall, it was our time to cash in on the F4 runs, and the momentum was completely shot. And yes, it was like a final curb stomp for them to end up with X.

Since you are talking about "close", lets talk about the flip side of your argument there, that butler is 4 OT wins, a 2 pt. loss to OKSt away from being 16-4, and wins against two top 10 teams... I don't think you'd be trashing the program as a clone of UD anyways. If thats just rival hate, then OK, but I hope you are smarter than thinking we've sunk so quickly to their level for any more than just this anomaly of a season.:look:

That said, I know we are bad this year. its frustrating seeing those close games and knowing we were just a possession or two away in each of those games from having such a different outcome. Our jackass fans are losing their minds, so if you want some entertainment and even worse doomsday comments, just come visit our boards.

Well done. Reps.

[throwbackmuskie]

Personally I think we are seeing where Butler will spend most of their time in the BE. the bottom. They were a great story for a couple of years, they got hot at the right time, but reality is setting in, they will be bottomfeeders in thei league.

[Milhouse]

Stevens wouldn't have saved this team.

They're competing in the Big East with Horizon League players. He was notoriously not a great recruiting but was able to coach kids up. They'd be better if he was here but honestly I dont think they'd be a tournament team this year.

Once you start falling down its incredibly hard to get back up.......look at depaul....

I would think this year will hurt Butler for years and years to come. In fact it already cost them Bluiett and Marcura who will hurt them directly for the next 4 years.

[LA Muskie]

Personally I think we are seeing where Butler will spend most of their time in the BE. the bottom. They were a great story for a couple of years, they got hot at the right time, but reality is setting in, they will be bottomfeeders in thei league.

Couldn't disagree more. If the Big East started last year and we lost Semaj for the season we easily could (almost certainly would) have been in the same situation if not worse.

They're looking at a perfect storm of bad stuff for a program like theirs (and ours). But they'll survive. Their DNA is much more like ours than Dayton's.

[throwbackmuskie]

I disagree. One bad year here would not hurt this program that has been built and going strong for a long time. Our path has been going up for a long time, and we have been able to maintain our success. Butler has been great only the past few years. There is a reason why X went to the A10 and Butler was stuck in the MCC/Horizon league. X has more players and resources to overcome a bad year, Butler, not so much. And yes X was A10 last year, but it was one of the worse seasons we have had in a long time, and we still competed at a high level in the conference.

[ThrowDownDBrown]

Some of you are letting your hate for Butler get in the way of rational thinking. Butler will be fine next year when they get one of their better players back and their rookie coach has a season under his belt. I don't think they'll be contending for the Big East title every year but they won't be a bottom feeder either like some of you think/hope

[Juice]

Some of you are letting your hate for Butler get in the way of rational thinking. Butler will be fine next year when they get one of their better players back and their rookie coach has a season under his belt. I don't think they'll be contending for the Big East title every year but they won't be a bottom feeder either like some of you think/hope

Yeah, somehow one bad year after their coach's departure suddenly makes Butler comparable to Depaul and Seton Hall. They'll never recover from this!

[throwbackmuskie]

I don't really have a hate for Butler, I do not like them, true, but I don't get why people think they will be anything other than a bottomfeeder. They never from 1962-1997 they never made the NCAAs. After all the big schools left the MCC it took them a few years to make it. They did great in a weak conference, but I think they are in way over their head. Just my two cents

[Nildogg]

I don't really have a hate for Butler, I do not like them, true, but I don't get why people think they will be anything other than a bottomfeeder. They never from 1962-1997 they never made the NCAAs. After all the big schools left the MCC it took them a few years to make it. They did great in a weak conference, but I think they are in way over their head. Just my two cents

What's funny, is people pointing to those years (62-97), considering the turnaround in the program came with the change in philosophy and the basis for what the program is now. So you just write off 98-now? there were a handful of bad years in there at best, but they also came with unprecedented success, the likes of which X (and many others) have never seen.

I've never heard anything about the culture and system in place at these "bottom feeder" programs you are comparing Butler to, but it's ironic that people rave about the core of what makes this program what it is. Winning makes everything look glossy, for sure, but there's a reason why Butler has consistently won against the major programs we've faced in the tournament, and out while in the "lowly" MCC/ Horizon/ A10...

And honestly, what is truly all that different about X and Butler other than Cintas?? Its not all that different, other than the high end of the success we've had in the tournament, and thats not taking anything away from the success that X has had. That and being in a hotbed of talent that is sometimes difficult to keep this close to home. (Bluiett has said that maybe we were a little too close to home, etc...). By virtue of being in the Big East, the Hinkle renovations, and having a head coach that has been in place for more than a couple of weeks, better talent that fits into our culture will bring this team right back up, as much as it may disappoint you.

It might take a year or two, but this program will bounce back quickly, and will never be the perennial doormat as you suggest.

[bleedXblue]

Butler will be fine. Some may not want them to be, but I cant imagine them being a bottom feeder. I see them being a solid program year in and year out.

[OTRMUSKIE]

I hope Butler does very well. The only schools I want to fall flat on their face is Dayton and UC. There is really no reason to hate butler other than they caught lightning in a bottle twice but maybe that is enough reason to hate them. I want the Big East to be the best conf in America and we will need Butler to help make that happen. My attitude towards them might change once the rivalry becomes more heated but right now I wish them success just not at the expense of Xavier.

[LA Muskie]

I don't really have a hate for Butler, I do not like them, true, but I don't get why people think they will be anything other than a bottomfeeder. They never from 1962-1997 they never made the NCAAs. After all the big schools left the MCC it took them a few years to make it. They did great in a weak conference, but I think they are in way over their head. Just my two cents
So you're just throwing out 16 years -- and the most recent 16 years at that? We don't look so hot if you do that to us, either. Oh and in addition to doing great in a weak conference, they have also done pretty damn well in this little thing they call the NCAA Tournament. Which is the great equalizer, because it's team for team and not conference for conference. You can disregard their success all you want. But it comes off as petty.

[throwbackmuskie]

I commented on their past 16 years. They did great in a weak conference. Yes they Really had two great NCAA runs. They have done well, however I do not think they will last and will be a bottomfeeder. It is my opinion, we will see if I am right. Xavier has had sustained success at a higher level for the last 20+ years. Time will tell.

Butler has never recruited at a high level, Xavier has. I bet DePaul never thought they would be a bottom feeder and look at them now. IMO butler is more of a DePaul than a Villanova/Marquette/Georgetown/Xavier.

[XU 87]

Butler will be fine. Some may not want them to be, but I cant imagine them being a bottom feeder. I see them being a solid program year in and year out.

I think they need to pick up their recruiting. They are not going to win in this league with guys they're stealing from Florida Gulf Coast. (Actually, I think they lost that recruit to FGC.)

[LA Muskie]

I commented on their past 16 years. They did great in a weak conference. Yes they Really had two great NCAA runs. They have done well, however I do not think they will last and will be a bottomfeeder. It is my opinion, we will see if I am right. Xavier has had sustained success at a higher level for the last 20+ years. Time will tell.

Butler has never recruited at a high level, Xavier has. I bet DePaul never thought they would be a bottom feeder and look at them now. IMO butler is more of a DePaul than a Villanova/Marquette/Georgetown/Xavier.
Those 4 years make that much of a difference in your mind huh? When I think Butler I think Collier, Matta, Lickliter, and Stevens. That's 20 years of outstanding coaches and 16 solid years of success. Oh...and 2 National Championship games in the last 4 years. But sure, throw away all the good. Of course it works both ways. And for all our success we haven't sniffed the inside of a Final Four locker room.

[LA Muskie]

I think they need to pick up their recruiting. They are not going to win in this league with guys they're stealing from Florida Gulf Coast. (Actually, I think they lost that recruit to FGC.)
If they continue the Stevens system, they can win. They've done it before. Discount their prior conference affiliation all you want; they've proven it on the only stage that matters.

[throwbackmuskie]

Look further into butler and Xavier's history. Xavier has pretty much owned butler. Again you can think they will keep doing great, I don't see it. Like I said its a whole new ball game now. NCAA is about who gets hot at the right time. You think George mason is a better program than x because they have been to a final four? Butler has the longest road of the three new ones to sustain success IMO.

[LA Muskie]

Look further into butler and Xavier's history. Xavier has pretty much owned butler. Again you can think they will keep doing great, I don't see it. Like I said its a whole new ball game now. NCAA is about who gets hot at the right time. You think George mason is a better program than x because they have been to a final four? Butler has the longest road of the three new ones to sustain success IMO.
I don't think Butler is a better program than X. But I think their 16 years of sustained success is more likely to continue -- at least to some degree -- after Brad Stevens and into the Big East. I don't see them dominating the conference. (I don't see any single team doing that, frankly.) But the notion that they will quickly join the cellar crew is pretty absurd to me.

[throwbackmuskie]

Well they already are at the bottom. Like I said we will see but I don't see them competing for league titles anytime soon.

[XU 87]

If they continue the Stevens system, they can win. They've done it before. Discount their prior conference affiliation all you want; they've proven it on the only stage that matters.

Son, there ain't no Stevens no more.

Name the movie. (Insert "draft" for "stevens").

[LadyMuskie]

Son, there ain't no Stevens no more.

Name the movie. (Insert "draft" for "stevens").

Stripes!

[LA Muskie]

Son, there ain't no Stevens no more.

Name the movie. (Insert "draft" for "stevens").

And before him there was no more Collier, Matta, or Lickliter. I'm pretty sure we don't own the monopoly on good coaching hires.

[JTG]

And before him there was no more Collier, Matta, or Lickliter. I'm pretty sure we don't own the monopoly on good coaching hires.

Matta is the only one of those 3 that did anything post Butler. Collier stunk up the place at Nebraska, as did Lickliter at Iowa. And Thad couldn't get away from Butler fast enough.Stevens was head and shoulders above all three of them. He basically made chicken salad out of chicken crap. He's a miracle worker, a basketball savant.

[LA Muskie]

Matta is the only one of those 3 that did anything post Butler. Collier stunk up the place at Nebraska, as did Lickliter at Iowa. And Thad couldn't get away from Butler fast enough.Stevens was head and shoulders above all three of them. He basically made chicken salad out of chicken crap. He's a miracle worker, a basketball savant.

I don't know about all that. Much like Xavier and Rome, Butler wasn't built in a day. And regardless how they did AFTER Butler, both Collier and Lickliter moved them forward. Hell Lickliter won National Coach of the Year in 2007 (his last at Butler).

[Nildogg]

Matta is the only one of those 3 that did anything post Butler. Collier stunk up the place at Nebraska, as did Lickliter at Iowa. And Thad couldn't get away from Butler fast enough.Stevens was head and shoulders above all three of them. He basically made chicken salad out of chicken crap. He's a miracle worker, a basketball savant.

So, what does that say, when you are calling those coaches garbage, yet they had great success at Butler? Maybe that the system/ culture has something to do with it????

Continuity?

A little reason why I am not so worried. I can't wait to see what better athletes as a part of the system, with all of the new fringe benefits of the BE brings. I'll just say that it won't be as a doormat. I also like what Brandon Miller brings to the table when he is able to make his stamp on the program. Some would expect that immediately, but realistically its going to take a couple of years.

[Muskied]

[A little reason why I am not so worried. I can't wait to see what better athletes as a part of the system, with all of the new fringe benefits of the BE brings. I'll just say that it won't be as a doormat. I also like what Brandon Miller brings to the table when he is able to make his stamp on the program. Some would expect that immediately, but realistically its going to take a couple of years.[/QUOTE]

ND is pretty spot on. Also, even though Stevens brought more success it was within the same system. This system was maintained largely because of assistant coaches who came from that system. Players like Graves, and Archey have been integral to sustaining that culture, and assistants before them included current coach Brandon Miller. I know we make fun of "the butler way" but there is something to be said for it...they are VERY good at staying within and being successful because of the system they engineer. They are having an off year from a record perspective...but I think the conference will be better when Butler is competitive, and believe that will continue under Miller.

[throwbackmuskie]

Last night didn't to anything to change my mind, if anything it showed me like I said, Butler has a long, long road ahead.

[ammtd34]

Hell Lickliter won National Coach of the Year in 2007 (his last at Butler).

And lost to Wright State. Twice.

[Xavier]

Last night didn't to anything to change my mind, if anything it showed me like I said, Butler has a long, long road ahead.

They did lose there best player right before the season. Would be like losing semaj. I see Butler as a middle of the road BE team in the years to come

[bleedXblue]

I think Butler will be solid. New coach, lost a good player before the season......shit happens. Give them through next year to get back on track.

[throwbackmuskie]

Maybe, I just don't see it. They havea long way to go when it comes to recruiting. Take Dunham only offers were Bulter, Ball St and Wright St. Kelan Martin, their big recruit this year Texas Tech and SLU were his biggest offers. They got a long way to go.

[GoMuskies]

Take Dunham only offers were Bulter, Ball St and Wright St.

Dunham would start at Xavier. I don't care who offered him scholarships.

[XUFan09]

And Xavier was seriously interested in Kelan Martin. They beat out Butler for Macura and Bluiett, so the need was no longer there, but they really liked him and he should be a good player.

Sent from my DROID RAZR HD using Tapatalk

[throwbackmuskie]

Your missing the point. Butler's recruiting was great for the Hoizon league, not the Big East. Why do you think Mack stressed stepping up thier game big time when it comes to recruiting when we entered the Big East.

[GoMuskies]

Your missing the point. Butler's recruiting was great for the Hoizon league, not the Big East. Why do you think Mack stressed stepping up thier game big time when it comes to recruiting when we entered the Big East.

We're third in the Big East, and Dunham would start for us. I think that's a pretty lousy example of the problem with Butler's recruiting. They have about 11 other guys on scholarship who are probably better examples.

[throwbackmuskie]

We're third in the Big East, and Dunham would start for us. I think that's a pretty lousy example of the problem with Butler's recruiting. They have about 11 other guys on scholarship who are probably better examples.

You missed the point, it wasn't about the player he is, it was about who they go aftr in recruiting.

[nuts4xu]

Your missing the point. Butler's recruiting was great for the Hoizon league, not the Big East. Why do you think Mack stressed stepping up thier game big time when it comes to recruiting when we entered the Big East.

Our recruiting was great for the Atlantic 10, but do you really think Stainbrook and Phillmore are typical Big East type players?

It will take most of the new BE teams a few years before their recruiting of BE players shows up on the floor.

[throwbackmuskie]

Our recruiting was great for the Atlantic 10, but do you really think Stainbrook and Phillmore are typical Big East type players?

It will take most of the new BE teams a few years before their recruiting of BE players shows up on the floor.

Those were transfers.

Christon, M Davis, Reynolds, the current players, Tu, Lyons, those were guys who had solid offer sheets.

[GoMuskies]

You missed the point, it wasn't about the player he is, it was about who they go aftr in recruiting.

They go after players who are good enough to start for the third best team in the Big East.

[throwbackmuskie]

They go after players who are good enough to start for the third best team in the Big East.

yep, they got one player we didn't, good job!

All those 2* players on their bench sure helped their great record of 2-10 in the Big East.

[GoMuskies]

All those 2* players on their bench sure helped their great record of 2-10 in the Big East.

Yeah, that's the point. Dunham is not the problem, so pointing him out is idiotic. Why not also say that Creighton has a recruiting problem because of guys like Doug McDermott? The guys surrounding Duhham are the problem

[throwbackmuskie]

No dude, the point was Butler needs to start getting player who other BE schools are going after, more than 1 here and there.

[LA Muskie]

You missed the point, it wasn't about the player he is, it was about who they go aftr in recruiting.

No actually it's not. It's not really about who else is recruiting you. See, eg, David West.

Also bear in mind that the BE came together very quickly. Neither Xavier not Butler has had the chance to take advantage (on the court) of the new recruiting profile. Hell at least 75% of Butler's roster was recruited when recruits were expecting to play on the Horizon.

They'll catch up and be a middle of the road Big East team. It'll just take a few years because of their particular circumstances. If the BE started a year earlier we probably would have been in the same boat. Even with Semaj. (And they're out their best player for the year.)

[GoMuskies]

Yes, they obviously have a talent problem, but Kellen Dunham is a horrifically bad example of that. If they had a team full of Kellen Dunham's, they wouldn't have a talent problem.

[throwbackmuskie]

No actually it's not. It's not really about who else is recruiting you. See, eg, David West.

Also bear in mind that the BE came together very quickly. Neither Xavier not Butler has had the chance to take advantage (on the court) of the new recruiting profile. Hell at least 75% of Butler's roster was recruited when recruits were expecting to play on the Horizon.

They'll catch up and be a middle of the road Big East team. It'll just take a few years because of their particular circumstances. If the BE started a year earlier we probably would have been in the same boat. Even with Semaj. (And they're out their best player for the year.)

Xavier has been recruiting at a higher level for a while now.

Not just this past year. I get the David Wests of the world, but be honest the top teams in the country, heck the top teams in the BE, Gt, NOVA, Marq, pretty much go after the bigger fish in the season.

[Milhouse]

We went 17-15 last year in the A10 after losing our best returning player. Similar boat to Butler I'd say. That said no way Butler gets to 17 wins.

[XU 87]

Butler needs a lot more talent. That's why they are 2-10 in the league. They have a walk-on from Moeller as their starting point guard. And their recruiting class for next year isn't very good, as compared to other BE recrutiing classes.

[XUFan09]

Butler needs a lot more talent. That's why they are 2-10 in the league. They have a walk-on from Moeller as their starting point guard. And their recruiting class for next year isn't very good, as compared to other BE recrutiing classes.

Not having a legitimate point guard has really hurt them this year (and to a degree last year too). That's why Roosevelt Jones absence was particularly damaging. Not only is he their best or second best player, he's also the playmaker for the team.

[throwbackmuskie]

talent and talented depth. When you are playing high level league ball lack of depth will catch up with you real quick.

[danaandvictory]

Not having a legitimate point guard has really hurt them this year (and to a degree last year too). That's why Roosevelt Jones absence was particularly damaging. Not only is he their best or second best player, he's also the playmaker for the team.

I think it's more about Hopkins getting the boot before last season. Jones is a wing, although he would certainly help them by giving them someone besides Barlow that can dribble.

[LA Muskie]

Xavier has been recruiting at a higher level for a while now.

Not just this past year. I get the David Wests of the world, but be honest the top teams in the country, heck the top teams in the BE, Gt, NOVA, Marq, pretty much go after the bigger fish in the season.
Xavier has been recruiting at a high level for the A-10 for years now. Our recruiting will have to step up to consistently compete in the BE. I don't think there's any disagreement about that -- even Mack has said as much.

Butler stepped up in conference affiliation twice in the span of two years. In both instances there was virtually no "notice" -- in each case they did it in less than a year. Which means that their current roster was recruited almost exclusively for a Horizon League team (albeit one that recently went to two NCAA championship games).

Are they behind us in terms of talent/depth because of that recruiting disparity? Absolutely. Again -- I don't think you'll find much disagreement there. Add in the loss of Stevens on the bench and the loss of Jones on the court and you have a perfect storm of crappiness in a tough conference this year.

But much like Xavier, Butler has a culture of success. It may take a few years, but they will get to where they need to be and they will compete. Will they be annual frontrunners? Probably not. But I think it's reasonable to believe they will be a consistent middle of the pack, NCAA tournament caliber team who occasionally competes at the top of the league.

[throwbackmuskie]

Xavier has been recruiting at a high level for the A-10 for years now. Our recruiting will have to step up to consistently compete in the BE. I don't think there's any disagreement about that -- even Mack has said as much.

Butler stepped up in conference affiliation twice in the span of two years. In both instances there was virtually no "notice" -- in each case they did it in less than a year. Which means that their current roster was recruited almost exclusively for a Horizon League team (albeit one that recently went to two NCAA championship games).

Are they behind us in terms of talent/depth because of that recruiting disparity? Absolutely. Again -- I don't think you'll find much disagreement there. Add in the loss of Stevens on the bench and the loss of Jones on the court and you have a perfect storm of crappiness in a tough conference this year.

But much like Xavier, Butler has a culture of success. It may take a few years, but they will get to where they need to be and they will compete. Will they be annual frontrunners? Probably not. But I think it's reasonable to believe they will be a consistent middle of the pack, NCAA tournament caliber team who occasionally competes at the top of the league.

Go look at X's recruits, Freeze, Holloway, ect, Xa has been recruiting at a higher than A10 level for a while now.

[GoMuskies]

X's teams from '06 on would have been just fine in this Big East. Well, other than last year's team that wasn't even okay in the A-10.

I certainly hope our recruting DOES step up, though. Based on the '14 class, looks like it has.

[ArizonaXUGrad]

Stealing the quote from another poster....Xavier way is the only way!

Yes, Butler would be a lot better if Roosevelt Jones was playing this year, however, I don't think it would have changed their tourney chances. Jones had just good enough ball skills to act as a point forward for them last year, but he isn't good enough to act as that in the BE. Their real problem is that they have a good 2 man class coming in, albeit undersized forwards, but they still lack that very good PG to excel in the big east. It's not looking like they will get it in 2014 and the 2015 PG crop is top heavy and not very deep.

[GoMuskies]

Yes, Butler would be a lot better if Roosevelt Jones was playing this year, however, I don't think it would have changed their tourney chances. Jones had just good enough ball skills to act as a point forward for them last year, but he isn't good enough to act as that in the BE.

I know it doesn't work this way, but if Jones is worth just one more point in regulation for them, they could be 5-5 in the league with wins over Villanova and Georgetown.

[The_Mack_Pack]

Xavier was in a similar situation last season to what Butler is going through this season. Losing your best player before the season starts is hard to recover from. They'll be back in a year or two, they have some nice young players. Dunham, Brown, Chrabascz, and Roosevelt Jones will be a tough group in a couple of years.

[XU 87]

Not having a legitimate point guard has really hurt them this year (and to a degree last year too). That's why Roosevelt Jones absence was particularly damaging. Not only is he their best or second best player, he's also the playmaker for the team.

But Jones is a forward. While he certainly would have helped Butler this year, he doesn't change the fact that they have a walk-on starting at point guard. Butler's talent level right now is below the rest of the Big East, including even DePaul to some extent. And Butler isn't going to compete in this league on any regular basis if they keep stealing recruits from MAC and Horizon schools, or losing recruits to Florida Gulf Coast.

[XUFan09]

But Jones is a forward. While he certainly would have helped Butler this year, he doesn't change the fact that they have a walk-on starting at point guard. Butler's talent level right now is below the rest of the Big East, including even DePaul to some extent. And Butler isn't going to compete in this league on any regular basis if they keep stealing recruits from MAC and Horizon schools, or losing recruits to Florida Gulf Coast.

True, but after the loss of Hopkins (who I forgot about), he was the best distributor they had.

Sent from my DROID RAZR HD using Tapatalk

[Xavier]

yep, they got one player we didn't, good job!

All those 2* players on their bench sure helped their great record of 2-10 in the Big East.

Do you think Butler was recruiting at a Big East level when they went to back to back NC games?

[kyxu]

Apparently, Brandon Miller chucked their freshman point guard Rene Castro during last night's shootaround.

[XU 87]

Do you think Butler was recruiting at a Big East level when they went to back to back NC games?

No, although Butler's first team had a first round NBA pick who went early. But George Mason wasn't recruiting at a BE level either when they went to the final four. Butler's back to back NC games, particularly the second one, is one of the most incredible feats I've seen in sports. But the coach who took them there is gone.

The bottom line is that if Butler wants to compete in this league on a regualr basis they are going to have to recruit better players.

[GoMuskies]

Butler wasn't exactly George Mason. Butler was a #4 or #5 seed that year.

[XU 87]

Butler was a five seed the first year and an 8 seed the second year. George Mason was an 11 seed.

[GoMuskies]

Yes, the second year was much more surprising. They were really good the first year.

[XU 87]

I've always thought that Brad Stephens was a miracle worker. On the other hand, that first Butler team had 2 NBA players- Hayward and Mack. The second team had one NBA player- Mack. So that first year he had two lightly recruited players who turned into NBA players- which is unusual to have on the same team.

St. Joe made the elite 8 when it had two NBA players. But they fell back when they didn't pick up their recruiting.

Bottom line- Butler had a great coach and 2 star recruits who turned into NBA players. The coach is gone. In addition, you can't reasonably expect that these two star recruits are going to continue to develop into NBA players.

[XUFan09]

Bottom line- Butler had a great coach and 2 star recruits who turned into NBA players. The coach is gone. In addition, you can't reasonably expect that these two star recruits are going to continue to develop into NBA players.

Agreed. They have a good core for the next two years of Dunham, Jones, Chrabascz, and Brown. They need to build around that core though.

[xudash]

Yes, the second year was much more surprising. They were really good the first year.

The second year UCONN ran over them like roadkill. The difference in athletic ability was obvious in that game.

Regardless of what anyone thinks about it, it is a fact that luck is involved in most cases for tournament teams that advance in the tournament. Well, luck and match-ups. Xavier has experienced both good and bad luck in that regard. Butler experienced good luck in those two years, including having to play KSU after we exhausted them through a 2x overtime game.

Stevens was a great coach at Butler. Their run the first year with Hayword and Mack wasn't that surprising once they got going, especially given how he had them playing with such focus and precision. Otherwise, Butler was a lot about lightening in a bottle; right place with the right people at the right time coupled with very positive momentum and some good breaks along the way.

Fast forward to today. You would think that their mascot took a major soft dump in every dorm room on campus, reading their board this morning. They don't believe they were successful in leveraging those runs in terms of attracting better recruits. They're right, but they blame that on Stevens, and believe he left in part because he knew he had such a disparity in talent vis-a-vis the Big East that Butler was preparing to join at the time.

I believe Butler has built sufficient success to sustain success, but it isn't going to be like it was for them before; like some of you here, I see Butler as a middling Big East team that makes its way to the Dance off and on.

[SlimKibbles]

The second year UCONN ran over them like roadkill. The difference in athletic ability was obvious in that game.

Regardless of what anyone thinks about it, it is a fact that luck is involved in most cases for tournament teams that advance in the tournament. Well, luck and match-ups. Xavier has experienced both good and bad luck in that regard. Butler experienced good luck in those two years, including having to play KSU after we exhausted them through a 2x overtime game.

Stevens was a great coach at Butler. Their run the first year with Hayword and Mack wasn't that surprising once they got going, especially given how he had them playing with such focus and precision. Otherwise, Butler was a lot about lightening in a bottle; right place with the right people at the right time coupled with very positive momentum and some good breaks along the way.

Fast forward to today. You would think that their mascot took a major soft dump in every dorm room on campus, reading their board this morning. They don't believe they were successful in leveraging those runs in terms of attracting better recruits. They're right, but they blame that on Stevens, and believe he left in part because he knew he had such a disparity in talent vis-a-vis the Big East that Butler was preparing to join at the time.

I believe Butler has built sufficient success to sustain success, but it isn't going to be like it was for them before; like some of you here, I see Butler as a middling Big East team that makes its way to the Dance off and on.

Sure there was some luck involved. However, and I said this in a tournament thread at the time, Butler was losing to K-State in the fourth quarter of that game. They still had to come back and win. Plus they beat a good Syracuse team lacking Onuaku in the lineup before that. It amazes me how little credit that Butler team gets from people around here. Lot of sour grapes if you ask me. And, yes, I envy the hell out of them for what they were able to do that season.

[bleedXblue]

Sure there was some luck involved. However, and I said this in a tournament thread at the time, Butler was losing to K-State in the fourth quarter of that game. They still had to come back and win. Plus they beat a good Syracuse team lacking Onuaku in the lineup before that. It amazes me how little credit that Butler team gets from people around here. Lot of sour grapes if you ask me. And, yes, I envy the hell out of them for what they were able to do that season.

Yep totally agree

[xudash]

Sure there was some luck involved. However, and I said this in a tournament thread at the time, Butler was losing to K-State in the fourth quarter of that game. They still had to come back and win. Plus they beat a good Syracuse team lacking Onuaku in the lineup before that. It amazes me how little credit that Butler team gets from people around here. Lot of sour grapes if you ask me. And, yes, I envy the hell out of them for what they were able to do that season.

I think you're overreacting a little to what I wrote. If you agree that there was some luck involved, then you agree with what I wrote. Otherwise, I think I made it pretty clear that there run the first time was not that surprising, given Stephens and the talent he had, and the fact that they got on the positive roll, which usually leads to sustained success in the tournament.

Without getting into specific points of luck along the way, if you want to throw out Syracuse, I will throughout the game against Florida, which may have occurred during the following season. I'm not trying to make a big deal out of this. I simply believe that it is safe to say that a little luck comes into play during the tournament, and that applies to every team in the tournament.

Frankly, I do not envy Butler those two runs for two reasons. For one, they did not win the national championship, which is what matters. Of course it's nice to get to a final four, but it is still about winning the whole thing. Secondly, I am very comfortable in believing, and I believe just about everything that is relevant backs this up, that Xavier has a stronger program than Butler. I certainly prefer our position as a program to that about Butler.

I respect that you believe that i'm not giving Butler enough credit, but I believe that you're placing way too much emphasis on those two seasons, and that envy is driving some people's comments around here when it comes to Butler. If you can believe anything, you can certainly believe that I am not envious of Butler.

[SlimKibbles]

Dash, there are others who haven't given Butler some credit for what they did those years. Not just you. I agree with you on X having a stronger program and also totally get what you're saying about a lack of envy. They didn't win it all. I should probably feel the same as you in that regard. And they may never get that far ever again. Still it's further than X has ever made it. From that standpoint I envy them. That said, I fully believe that X can win it all someday and don't think Butler has as much of a shot. Never know though. It's going to take a special group of guys from X to pull it off and likely involve some luck along the way. Anyway I just don't like how some folks seem to dismiss what Butler accomplished by saying it was all luck and/or they played tired or undermanned teams along the way. They still had to win the games. I don't think you were saying that exactly but it just triggered my feelings about it again based on what some people have said over the years.

[xu82]

I don't "envy" Butler's two national championship games, but I'd love to see us get the same chance. It was very cool to see a smaller school get those shots at the big prize. (Full confession, I'm a Bills fan and fully enjoyed four straight runs to the Big Game - and I know how it feels for a fan to be disappointed.) It would have been one of the best all-time NCAA stories had that long prayer of a shot gone down. It's interesting to me the emotion (and hatred in some cases) that our rivals bring out on this board. I get it to a point, I want to crush them all! But after that I want them to have great seasons because that actually helps us. I put X first in my mind, and if that means hoping UC, Butler or... dare I say, even Dayton win out other than against us, I'm ok with that.

Having said all that, I don't live amongst annoying fans from the other schools. Most of you do. That might be a huge factor in my mindset. And there's nothing about our program, from the school to the Cintas, the city, the time keeping, the coaches or the recruiting classes, that make me jealous of Butler. Nothing.

[xu82]

Then again, maybe I'm just being magnanimous because they got our power back on. I've been through blizzards and hurricanes and I can tell you ice storms suck!

[xudash]

Dash, there are others who haven't given Butler some credit for what they did those years. Not just you. I agree with you on X having a stronger program and also totally get what you're saying about a lack of envy. They didn't win it all. I should probably feel the same as you in that regard. And they may never get that far ever again. Still it's further than X has ever made it. From that standpoint I envy them. That said, I fully believe that X can win it all someday and don't think Butler has as much of a shot. Never know though. It's going to take a special group of guys from X to pull it off and likely involve some luck along the way. Anyway I just don't like how some folks seem to dismiss what Butler accomplished by saying it was all luck and/or they played tired or undermanned teams along the way. They still had to win the games. I don't think you were saying that exactly but it just triggered my feelings about it again based on what some people have said over the years.

SK, we are on the same page. Butler certainly deserves credit for those two seasons, and they otherwise have built a strong tournament resume in recent time.

I just happen to be very comfortable in my own skin as a fan of Xavier's program and wouldn't trade places with a Butler fan for the world.

[JTG]

I don't understand the I hope they win except when they play us mentality. Win your games and you don't need others help. My son went to Butler so I'm ok with them, but I havenever wanted UC to win anything ever. Its called a rivalry.

[xu82]

I just don't hate them. My brother in law went to UC. Great guy. If we get to the Tourney because they have a great year and we stomped them, well, we get to the Tourney. That's my priority. It's very simple to me. I want ALL our opponents to do everything they can to help XAVIER. I don't care who it is.

[xu82]

It doesn't mean i LIKE them, that's different.

[xu82]

Win your games and you don't need others help.

If the "others" you beat haven't won any games, that's not going to help you. They look hard at strength of schedule. I want X to have a chance to win it all, and for that they have to be in it.

[XUFan09]

If the "others" you beat haven't won any games, that's not going to help you. They look hard at strength of schedule. I want X to have a chance to win it all, and for that they have to be in it.

Especially non-conference SOS. If UC goes 3-3 or better down the stretch, they are an RPI top 25 neutral court win. That's easily the best win Xavier has (and they won by a good margin too). Tennessee is likely a top 50 home win (or just outside). Ditto for Georgetown and possibly for Providence. Now if Xavier beats Creighton or Villanova, they will have beat a higher rated team than UC, but they will have done it at home, so it will have about the same value.

UC was originally looking to be only a top 50 or even a top 75 team. It's a big deal that they have really taken off, because that win alone could be enough to bump Xavier up a seed.

[xu82]

It's a big deal that they have really taken off, because that win alone could be enough to bump Xavier up a seed.

I love your optimism. You are thinking of seeding, while I am still hoping for a strong finish and just getting in!

[SlimKibbles]

SK, we are on the same page. Butler certainly deserves credit for those two seasons, and they otherwise have built a strong tournament resume in recent time.

I just happen to be very comfortable in my own skin as a fan of Xavier's program and wouldn't trade places with a Butler fan for the world.

Me neither! :drinks:

[XUFan09]

I love your optimism. You are thinking of seeding, while I am still hoping for a strong finish and just getting in!

Lol. I view 20 as the magic number (plus a conference tournament win). After the Butler win (which seemed like a coin flip going in), that has become much more probable. Assuming a home win against DePaul, they need to get just two wins out of @Marquette, @Georgetown, @St. John's, Creighton, @Seton Hall, and Villanova. Could they fall short of that? Sure. More likely they hit that mark though.

And if they end up at 19-11 or something like that, that win could be one of the things that tips them over the edge into the tournament.

[xu82]

Lol. I view 20 as the magic number (plus a conference tournament win). After the Butler win (which seemed like a coin flip going in), that has become much more probable. Assuming a home win against DePaul, they need to get just two wins out of @Marquette, @Georgetown, @St. John's, Creighton, @Seton Hall, and Villanova. Could they fall short of that? Sure. More likely they hit that mark though.

And if they end up at 19-11 or something like that, that win could be one of the things that tips them over the edge into the tournament.

Ahhh, there it is. You used the word "assuming". I have trouble with that. (Did you notice I earlier identified myself as a Bills fan? We assume the worst.)

[xumuskies08]

Butler more than holding their own (for now) against Creighton. They lead by 1 at the under 4 in the first half. McDermott has 14.

[GoMuskies]

Butler more than holding their own (for now) against Creighton. They lead by 1 at the under 4 in the first half. McDermott has 14.

If Butler somehow pulls this one off, and Xavier can get a big win in the Good Land over the weekend, 2nd place is not out of the question. That. Would. Be. Amazing.

[xumuskies08]

Butler trails by 3 at the break. I wouldn't mind in the slightest if they pull the upset.

[xsteve1]

Definitely a lot more life in that building tonight. Butler matches up better against Creighton than they do X.

[Muskie1000]

The Fenway park of college hoops?

[X-band '01]

Definitely a lot more life in that building tonight. Butler matches up better against Creighton than they do X.

It must have been past their bedtime on Tuesday night.

#ButlerWay

[xumuskies08]

Announced attendance of just over 7,000.

[GoMuskies]

Ever since Villanova, Ethan Wragge sucks. They're top 5 when he's on and not even a top 25 team when he's not.

[xumuskies08]

Win or lose, Butler's effort and intensity look 1000 times better than it did Tuesday.

[The_Mack_Pack]

Ever since Villanova, Ethan Wragge sucks. They're top 5 when he's on and not even a top 25 team when he's not.

He doesn't try very hard to get open. Most of his looks seem to come off of trailing a fast break or off an offensive rebound.

[GoMuskies]

McDermott is a killa.

[BMoreX]

I'm rooting for Creighton here. Better for the conference.

That 3 by Doug was a killer.

[xumuskies08]

That's a terrible play call at the end by Miller IMO.

[GoMuskies]

My guess is that tonight was Butler's last gasp and that they'll finish 2-16.

[GreatWhiteNorth]

Butler could have won but they didn't.

[xsteve1]

My guess is that tonight was Butler's last gasp and that they'll finish 2-16.

They have to be mentally just beat down with all the close losses. I think they'll be okay next year with Jones back and the 3 freshman look to be pretty good players especially the Brown kid and the center (no way I'm trying to spell that name).

[GoMuskies]

What would Butler's record be if Brad Stevens was still their coach?

Consider:

* Butler was 10-2 in the non-conference with a 2 point loss to then #5 OK State and a 2 point OT loss to LSU

* 3 of their Big East losses were in OT, and they lost tonight after leading in the final minute.

* Our first game against them was tight until the final minute or so when we pulled away to win by 11.

* Four of their other Big East losses were by single digits

So was Stevens a good enough coach to get those two non-conference wins and add 4 or 5 close wins that were close losses in his absence? Probably not, but I think it's interesting to consider just how close Butler is to having a pretty damned good record and the fact that they thought they were going to have one of the best coaches in basketball on their sideline and instead have an untested rook.

[xudash]

I have to say, I give Butler all the credit in the world. They put it all out there tonight after having been crushed by us.

Perhaps a microcosm of their season was that Melba toast play their rookie coach drew up for the last possession.

[Nigel Tufnel]

What would Butler's record be if Brad Stevens was still their coach?

Consider:

* Butler was 10-2 in the non-conference with a 2 point loss to then #5 OK State and a 2 point OT loss to LSU

* 3 of their Big East losses were in OT, and they lost tonight after leading in the final minute.

* Our first game against them was tight until the final minute or so when we pulled away to win by 11.

* Four of their other Big East losses were by single digits

So was Stevens a enough coach to get those two non-conference wins and add 4 or 5 close wins that were close losses in his absence? Probably not, but I think it's interesting to consider just how close Butler is to having a pretty damned good record and the fact that they thought they were going to have one of the best coaches in basketball on their sideline and instead have an untested rook.

I don't know if he gets them 6-7 of those wins....but I think he gets them at least half of them. This year's team doesn't play nearly as crisp and precise as past teams coached by Stevens. They don't have as much talent...but they also don't seem to be as fundamentally sound as Stevens' coached teams. Butler makes a lot more unforced errors this year. I think it has to do with coaching. I'm not saying Miller won't be a good coach...I have no idea....but he doesn't seem to have the attention to detail Stevens had. Probably because he's a rookie coach playing in the Big East. Right now, he's in way over his head. Will be interesting to see how he responds.

[HuskyMuskie]

Butler was winning at halftime @ St. John's.

Butler lost by 25 @ St. John's.

[SlimKibbles]

Butler was winning at halftime @ St. John's.

Butler lost by 25 @ St. John's.

They were outscored 47-19 in the 2nd half. I didn't catch any of that half (saw parts of the 1st) but they must have shot as poorly as they did against X last week.

EDIT: Wow they were only down 46-41 with 13 min left to play and then St. John's went on a 24-2 run.

[The_Mack_Pack]

Butler has no offensive structure. That team takes a lot of terrible shots.

[bleedXblue]

I think they honestly have enough talent to win at least 6-8 conference games.

PG is a glaring weakness.

Miller is really struggling with getting these guys on the same page.

[XUFan09]

I think they honestly have enough talent to win at least 6-8 conference games.

PG is a glaring weakness.

Miller is really struggling with getting these guys on the same page.

I don't think it helps that Miller doesn't really have a playmaker (which Jones would have been). Barlow brings the ball up the court and handles it within the offense, but he's not exactly going to break down the defense. Dunham relies on screens to get free and doesn't have a good first step to create space. Marshall can sometimes get a shot for himself but can't really create for others.

[Masterofreality]

Butler does not have Big East level talent or, more importantly, Big East level depth.

This league is a little bit different than the A-10 and a lot different than the Horizon. Them losing recruits to us and others doesn't help their prospects. They might get one really high recruit but they need a bunch.

I think they are in big trouble for a goodly period of time. The "Butler Way" just got sidetracked.

[xubrew]

Butler has a first year coach, their players aren't nearly as good as they have been, they don't shoot as well as they used to, and their schedule is much harder.

Other than that, nothing has changed.

[mistabeecee41]

Butler has a first year coach, their players aren't nearly as good as they have been, they don't shoot as well as they used to, and their schedule is much harder.

Other than that, nothing has changed.

plus, Dunham's one of the (if not the) most overrated player in the conference.

[RoseyMuskie]

Butler does not have Big East level talent or, more importantly, Big East level depth.

This league is a little bit different than the A-10 and a lot different than the Horizon. Them losing recruits to us and others doesn't help their prospects. They might get one really high recruit but they need a bunch.

I think they are in big trouble for a goodly period of time. The "Butler Way" just got sidetracked.

This.

Think about it from Xavier's perspective. X jumped a level, and we've recently questioned if the talent of a few players (whether it be right or wrong) is on par with the BE. Butler is probably saying something identical, but that a few guys are still Horizon level.

[Muskie]

plus, Dunham's one of the (if not the) most overrated player in the conference.

Disagree.

[xudash]

Butler does not have Big East level talent or, more importantly, Big East level depth.

This league is a little bit different than the A-10 and a lot different than the Horizon. Them losing recruits to us and others doesn't help their prospects. They might get one really high recruit but they need a bunch.

I think they are in big trouble for a goodly period of time. The "Butler Way" just got sidetracked.

Agreed.

We're going to have to watch two dynamics with Butler moving forward:

Facilities - you can harp on Hinkle's NHR designation if you like, but the place is a toilet and their overall facilities are lacking, to be polite; and
Recruiting - that "Butler Way" model of recruiting guys into a system and weaving them into a team is really going to be tested moving forward, because they're going to have to balance their system approach with the need for Big East level athletes.

This isn't even my observation, it comes from visiting their board: the F4 runs were not leveraged for recruiting purposes. Some blame that on Stevens, mentioning that Stevens got out of dodge, in part, because he saw the writing on the wall.

Personally, and I'm obviously biased, but it was universally accepted as being true: Xavier was a lock for the C7. What is glaringly apparent at this point is that - FROM A PROGRAM POINT OF VIEW - Creighton was a much, much better add than Butler. I'm talking facilities, 17k people per home game, selling out their MSG allotment, etc. There is every reason to believe that McD can recruit into that program as a BE member from here on in.

[GoMuskies]

There is every reason to believe that McD can recruit into that program as a BE member from here on in.

I think there's every reason to believe that SOMEONE can recruit into that program as a BE member. I'm not sure there's enough evidence to conclude that McDermott can do so. Unless he has some more kids out there we don't know about.

[RealDeal]

Disagree.

+1

[mistabeecee41]

Disagree.

guy shoots sub 40% from the field and 36% from 3 on the year. His best games came out of conference against Princeton, Washington State and North Dakota.

36% from the floor and 30% from 3 in BE play. Yes, I get it, he's forced to do too much because his team sucks. Doesn't pass the ball well, doesn't defend well. He's one of those "shooters" who doesn't shoot well. Just don't see how you classify him with the best in the conference. Does he have the skill-set to potentially be there? Sure.

[Muskie]

guy shoots sub 40% from the field and 36% from 3 on the year. His best games came out of conference against Princeton, Washington State and North Dakota.

36% from the floor and 30% from 3 in BE play. Yes, I get it, he's forced to do too much because his team sucks. Doesn't pass the ball well, doesn't defend well. He's one of those "shooters" who doesn't shoot well. Just don't see how you classify him with the best in the conference. Does he have the skill-set to potentially be there? Sure.

I've not classified him as with the best in the conference. He's a spot up shooter that sometimes can create his own shot. In the Butler system (when it works) that makes him a dangerous threat. When the team around him isn't very good at executing, he's not going to do much. But that doesn't mean (to me) that he's overrated.

[xubrew]

Agreed.

We're going to have to watch two dynamics with Butler moving forward:

Facilities - you can harp on Hinkle's NHR designation if you like, but the place is a toilet and their overall facilities are lacking, to be polite; and
Recruiting - that "Butler Way" model of recruiting guys into a system and weaving them into a team is really going to be tested moving forward, because they're going to have to balance their system approach with the need for Big East level athletes.

This isn't even my observation, it comes from visiting their board: the F4 runs were not leveraged for recruiting purposes. Some blame that on Stevens, mentioning that Stevens got out of dodge, in part, because he saw the writing on the wall.

Personally, and I'm obviously biased, but it was universally accepted as being true: Xavier was a lock for the C7. What is glaringly apparent at this point is that - FROM A PROGRAM POINT OF VIEW - Creighton was a much, much better add than Butler. I'm talking facilities, 17k people per home game, selling out their MSG allotment, etc. There is every reason to believe that McD can recruit into that program as a BE member from here on in.

Greg McDermott did a hell of a job recruiting and landing Doug McDermott.

Other than that, what evidence is there from his days at Northern Iowa and Iowa State, and for that matter Creighton outside of his own son, that makes you believe McDermott will reel in the recruits?? He hasn't been, and he really never has. Iowa State was a Big Twelve member with nice facilities, and he wasn't able to land big recruits there, or build good teams there.

I believe Creighton is losing five of their six top players. I wouldn't be surprised if they look very much like Butler does this year at this time next year. I think Devin Brooks is a fairly good player, but I don't think he'll have much of a supporting cast. I also don't think it is in any way safe to assume that Creighton will be this good again in the foreseeable future.

[Muskie]

Greg McDermott did a hell of a job recruiting and landing Doug McDermott.

Other than that, what evidence is there from his days at Northern Iowa and Iowa State, and for that matter Creighton outside of his own son, that makes you believe McDermott will reel in the recruits?? He hasn't been, and he really never has. Iowa State was a Big Twelve member with nice facilities, and he wasn't able to land big recruits there, or build good teams there.

I believe Creighton is losing five of their six top players. I wouldn't be surprised if they look very much like Butler does this year at this time next year. I think Devin Brooks is a fairly good player, but I don't think he'll have much of a supporting cast. I also don't think it is in any way safe to assume that Creighton will be this good again in the foreseeable future.

I agree with much of what you've written Brew. I think one advantage that Creighton carries over Butler is the Administration and Fan support. The School has built an arena that sports starved fans seem to fill. I don't see that at Butler. I believe Creighton will struggle next season, but with the fan support and apparent admin support, I see them making a turnaround.

Full disclosure, I an admirer of Hinkle Fieldhouse. But part of that is based on the fact that I went to Section, Regional, Semi-State H.S. basketball games there and have many fond memories as a child of seeing games there. When I was at the game last week, I was looking around the place and wondering what in the world they could do to put in suites or generate other revenue. To that I take a wait and see approach. The arena as it stands is far below par for the rest of the Big East, which will factor into recruiting.

[XUFan09]

Don't forget Austin Chatman, who is seriously underrated because of who he plays next to, and Will Artino has been a very good bench player. Like Butler next year (Jones, Dunham, Chrabascz), Creighton will have a trio of good players. The question is who on the respective teams will complement those cores.

Sent from my DROID RAZR HD using Tapatalk

[XUFan09]

guy shoots sub 40% from the field and 36% from 3 on the year. His best games came out of conference against Princeton, Washington State and North Dakota.

36% from the floor and 30% from 3 in BE play. Yes, I get it, he's forced to do too much because his team sucks. Doesn't pass the ball well, doesn't defend well. He's one of those "shooters" who doesn't shoot well. Just don't see how you classify him with the best in the conference. Does he have the skill-set to potentially be there? Sure.

From three, 36% is a good shooting percentage. Once you account for the fact that he has to be a chucker instead of a real shooter, that percentage becomes impressive. Just consider some of his common attempts. Spin-around and fade-away jumpers are common for him out of team necessity, yet he still is at 36%. Who else in the conference could shoot that well from deep other than maybe the likely National Player of the Year?

Sent from my DROID RAZR HD using Tapatalk

[xudash]

I agree with much of what you've written Brew. I think one advantage that Creighton carries over Butler is the Administration and Fan support. The School has built an arena that sports starved fans seem to fill. I don't see that at Butler. I believe Creighton will struggle next season, but with the fan support and apparent admin support, I see them making a turnaround.

Full disclosure, I an admirer of Hinkle Fieldhouse. But part of that is based on the fact that I went to Section, Regional, Semi-State H.S. basketball games there and have many fond memories as a child of seeing games there. When I was at the game last week, I was looking around the place and wondering what in the world they could do to put in suites or generate other revenue. To that I take a wait and see approach. The arena as it stands is far below par for the rest of the Big East, which will factor into recruiting.

You made most of the point I was trying to make with your first paragraph. Creighton has program elements and resources that are far superior to those of Butler. I'm assuming Coach McDermott, with those resources, can get the job done from a recruiting standpoint in Omaha.

Otherwise, with respect to your full disclosure, you need to understand, as I'm sure you know already that Hinkle is on the national historic register. What that means to you and any fan of Hinkle is that Butler's options for renovating it are extremely limited. There will be no suites in Hinkle. Seating will be reduced in order to bring some aspects of it up to code. Of course, they need to raise the money before they can accomplish their plans for it.

[xubrew]

I don't think McDermott is a good recruiter. I don't know why anyone would. Now, he did do something that I think was smart, and that was not sign a whole slew of players even though they're going to have several scholarships available. That way, you can stagger it and not have six or seven freshmen on the team. But, it will likely be two or three years before they're anywhere close to the NCAA Tournament again, if it's even that soon.

Would Creighton have even hired Greg McDermott had it not been for Doug McDermott??

If Doug McDermott was playing for anyone other than his father, would he have even come back to school this year??

Creighton has a very good team this year, but it is also the result of EXTREMELY favorable circumstances that they are not likely to experience ever again.

The Miami Hurricanes were a top ten team a year ago. The difference between them and Creighton is that Creighton is probably losing more, they're bringing in less, and McDermott isn't nearly as good at recruiting and developing talent as Larranaga is.

Creighton's fanbase and facilities are second to none. They're probably the best in the whole league to be honest. But, they're not an overly accomplished program. Last year was their first out right Missouri Valley first place finish since 2002. They have never won more than one game in the NCAA Tournament, which means they haven't been to the Sweet Sixteen since the field went to 64. They're program is good, but it has never been at a caliber that would give anyone any reason to believe they could consistently contend in a power conference.

They are a fanstastic team this year, but I think this is it for them for a while. Perhaps a long while. A very long while. There is absolutely nothing that indicates Creighton will sustain themselves as a tournament regulars once this year is done.

[xudash]

I don't think McDermott is a good recruiter. I don't know why anyone would. Now, he did do something that I think was smart, and that was not sign a whole slew of players even though they're going to have several scholarships available. That way, you can stagger it and not have six or seven freshmen on the team. But, it will likely be two or three years before they're anywhere close to the NCAA Tournament again, if it's even that soon.

Would Creighton have even hired Greg McDermott had it not been for Doug McDermott??


If Doug McDermott was playing for anyone other than his father, would he have even come back to school this year??

Creighton has a very good team this year, but it is also the result of EXTREMELY favorable circumstances that they are not likely to experience ever again.

The Miami Hurricanes were a top ten team a year ago. The difference between them and Creighton is that Creighton is probably losing more, they're bringing in less, and McDermott isn't nearly as good at recruiting and developing talent as Larranaga is.

Creighton's fanbase and facilities are second to none. They're probably the best in the whole league to be honest. But, they're not an overly accomplished program. Last year was their first out right Missouri Valley first place finish since 2002. They have never won more than one game in the NCAA Tournament, which means they haven't been to the Sweet Sixteen since the field went to 64. They're program is good, but it has never been at a caliber that would give anyone any reason to believe they could consistently contend in a power conference.

They are a fanstastic team this year, but I think this is it for them for a while. Perhaps a long while. A very long while. There is absolutely nothing that indicates Creighton will sustain themselves as a tournament regulars once this year is done.

Fair enough.

Back to Butler: it is possible that they may have their "Dez Wells" situation going on, based on a thread on their board. Apparently, smoke is very visible at this point with fire possibly around the corner.

Butler doesn't mess around when it comes to bludgeoning its program: coach leaves, key player goes down to injury for the year, new coach stumbles into and through the job, the dog dies, and now the school and program MAY BE headed towards very damaging publicity.

http://ux.indystar.com/story/news/crime/2014/02/20/butler-university-rape-report-under-investigation/5658597/

[wkrq59]

Back to Butler: it is possible that they may have their "Dez Wells" situation going on, based on a thread on their board. Apparently, smoke is very visible at this point with fire possibly around the corner. XUDASH

Dash. I read the threads and I didn't see the accused rapist identified as an athlete. Did I miss something. I am not defending Butler or their policies but I'm just curious.

[Masterofreality]

The timing is, at least, curious..


http://twitter.com/zkeefer/status/435996516470099968
@zkeefer wrote:
Kameron Woods has been temporarily suspended from the #Butler basketball team, per coach Brandon Miller.

There is no timetable for his return.

[nkymuskie]

Fair enough.

Back to Butler: it is possible that they may have their "Dez Wells" situation going on, based on a thread on their board. Apparently, smoke is very visible at this point with fire possibly around the corner.

Butler doesn't mess around when it comes to bludgeoning its program: coach leaves, key player goes down to injury for the year, new coach stumbles into and through the job, the dog dies, and now the school and program MAY BE headed towards very damaging publicity.

http://ux.indystar.com/story/news/crime/2014/02/20/butler-university-rape-report-under-investigation/5658597/

What is the name of their board? Could anyone post a link to this thread?

[Masterofreality]

What is the name of their board? Could anyone post a link to this thread?

Just google BUHoops or find ButlerHoops.com

Two boards.

[Milhouse]

Pretty sure he's the top rebounder in the BE too right?

Huge blow, man that program is just skyrocketing downward. With our situation we had 5 star recruit Semaj "The Savior" Christion coming in the fall. Butler doesn't have that kind of hope.

[ammtd34]

Oh my.

[nkymuskie]

That doesn't look too good. Butler is in for a rough couple years more likely than not.

With Butler potentially being down for the next couple years who would you say our biggest conference rival becomes?

[Titanxman04]

That doesn't look too good. Butler is in for a rough couple years more likely than not.

With Butler potentially being down for the next couple years who would you say our biggest conference rival becomes?

Marquette.

But honestly, with how the first two games played out, possibly even Providence.

[Milhouse]

Yeah I'd say Marquette.

[XUFan09]

Marquette.

But honestly, with how the first two games played out, possibly even Providence.

I've always liked Providence. I wouldn't mind a friendly rivalry there. Bryce Cotton is leaving, but with Kris Dunn coming back and *I think* a good recruiting class, there should be some good games in the future.

[XUFan09]

I've always liked Providence. I wouldn't mind a friendly rivalry there. Bryce Cotton is leaving, but with Kris Dunn coming back and *I think* a good recruiting class, there should be some good games in the future.

Just check and realized why I thought they had a good recruiting class coming in. They signed Paschal Chukwu, a former Xavier target at center who should be a great shot blocker, with raw potential on the offensive end. They also signed top 100 players in PF Ben Bentil and SF Jalen Lindsey. They're still shopping for a guard or two, including former Xavier target and borderline 5-star JaQuan Lyle.

[xudash]

Back to Butler: it is possible that they may have their "Dez Wells" situation going on, based on a thread on their board. Apparently, smoke is very visible at this point with fire possibly around the corner. XUDASH

Dash. I read the threads and I didn't see the accused rapist identified as an athlete. Did I miss something. I am not defending Butler or their policies but I'm just curious.

q, that's why I did not name any names. The only reason I brought this here is that the Butler board is blowing up in the thread in question in the same or similar manner as we did with the Dez incident.

The suspension occurred in the exact timeframe of the incident presently being investigated. A Butler student posted in the thread to let everyone know that some very bad news is about to break and that it will affect the basketball program and reputation of the school (paraphrasing what he wrote). It's obvious who this is about. The authorities will reveal it in due time, once they've completed their process.

EDIT: I missed MOR's tweet reference.

I'll continue to go with what I believe about that program. Essentially, it grew too fast as the result of a couple of back-to-back runs that were improbable but happened nonetheless. Butler has serious facilities issues (from the vantage point of a prized recruit), and they cherish a culture/system that may not exactly be conducive to league play in a league the caliber of the Big East, given the level of athletes generally found in it.

The problem is that we need for the Big East to be strong.