Butler

[Masterofreality]

I didn't feel uncomfortable posting that tweet or referencing the Butler boards as to a name. This is not hearsay, but it's out there. Pretty clear as to the connection.

Looks like Butler has lost it's "Way". Brandon Miller is already catching a lot of heat.

And, Dash. We do need the Big East to be strong, but it's a damn site more important that it be strong in media capitals like New York and Washington and Chicago. Xavier just has to be stronger. In all honesty, Indy is a fly on an elephants ass.

[Muskie]

If you scroll down to the bottom of the front page of this site, there are links to forums for everyone of our conference-mates.

[xudash]

I didn't feel uncomfortable posting that tweet or referencing the Butler boards as to a name. This is not hearsay, but it's out there. Pretty clear as to the connection.

Looks like Butler has lost it's "Way". Brandon Miller is already catching a lot of heat.

And, Dash. We do need the Big East to be strong, but it's a damn site more important that it be strong in media capitals like New York and Washington and Chicago. Xavier just has to be stronger. In all honesty, Indy is a fly on an elephants ass.

MOR, good point about where the strength must come from.

Also, when I went over there initially and found that thread, I just skimmed it. I've visited their board more frequently in the last few weeks just to quietly witness the impact this season is having on their fanbase. This most recent news is EXACTLY everything they believe they would never experience.

I would have shared his name as you did here had I actually read his name presented in that manner. I only caught a bunch of "he" and "him" references as I skimmed through the thread, though still understanding that it was about Kam Woods. Again, had I noticed that tweet, I would have cleared myself for naming him outright here.

BTW, with respect to true program strength, some people have put way too much emphasis on those two F4 runs. Most of the "story" behind those runs gen'ed up from the idea that little David from the Horizon League pulled them off. This was certainly never about a program that was expected to accomplish them. It certainly isn't about a program that is well positioned to do anything like that moving forward. I would not be as harsh if Stevens were still there, but he isn't, and even he presently is being lambasted by his own fan base over a perceived lack of restocking in the recruiting department.

Now, with all that noted, did the Big East make the right decision in including Butler at the time? Yes, because Stevens was still there and the renovation plans for Hinkle appeared to be far enough along to warrant Butler's inclusion, given its record. But now that weak foundation/fast growth aspect is showing through. Butler has facilities issues. It hasn't raised all the required money yet - halfway through that from the last I read about it. It's current choice for head coach is under fire from all fronts, and pressure on him now is going past the loss of Jones and the transition into the Big East with a roster that includes mostly Horizon level athletes.

We directly creamed them during this most recent recruiting campaign.

Is Butler destined to fail from here? Of course not, but the ice is getting thinner and it continues to warm up over there. Butler has some serious navigating to do from here.

Georgetown, VIllanova and Marquette are only going to get better from here, based on everything that is known at this point. Seton Hall looks like it will come on strongly, as do St. John's and Providence. We're going to hold our own moving forward. As it stands right now, assuming Creighton is a one-year splash for now as a number of people around here believe, and given that Butler is not going to be roaring back next year based on its personnel at this point, DePaul will continue to have company from Butler and may be joined by Creighton next year.

Longer term, with McCormick Place coming on line and a jettisoning of Oliver, even DePaul might wake-up. I do love this conference. It is an entirely new level of keeping up with the Jones's.

[vee4xu]

My brother lives in Indy and recently I asked him the status of the Hinkle Hall upgrade. He made me laugh when he responded that the last work done there was when Tu pulled the water fountain off the wall.

[Masterofreality]

My brother lives in Indy and recently I asked him the status of the Hinkle Hall upgrade. He made me laugh when he responded that the last work done there was when Tu pulled the water fountain off the wall.

I guess that "national campaign" to preserve the "historical treasure" has fallen flat on it's face. Even more reason to be embarrassed.

[xudash]

My comment about them being half way through with their capital raise was I believe based on an IndyStar article that mentioned that they were at $17 million (committed, not funded) of $34 million required to effect the entire renovation plan.

The burning issue is with the plan itself, but what is arguably a strength for Butler also is a major weakness: Hinkle is on the National Historic Register. That simply means the redo is significantly restricted; it's essentially about cleaning up/remodeling what you've got. Updating it for the revenue-generating needs of the 21st Century - suites, high-end club, etc. - isn't happening. They can go after and probably now already go after seat licensing, but I still contend Butler has a very high level of elasticity in its fan base. They're reconfiguring to about 9k seats as it is.

I get tradition and all that, though the place looks like an antiquated zeppelin hanger on the outside, but thank God we have the Cintas Center.

[xubrew]

I think Butler will be good in some years, bad in some years, and decent in most years.

[paulxu]

I get tradition and all that, though the place looks like an antiquated zeppelin hanger on the outside,

Maybe OK if the Hindenburg isn't parked inside.

[Nildogg]

This season has definitely been a perfect storm/ tsunami of "bad". Up until this most recent "incident" (which everyone is connecting the dots, and making some big assumptions) it was all actually not all that unexpected in a lot of ways. And I don't think it was any grand statement about how Butler fits in to the Big East, more so about the circumstances of this season, and the position we were in from a roster standpoint that is weaker, or at least more poorly assembled than most that we've had over the last 10-15 years. For those that say that all of this is a sign of whats to come post Stevens is just silly, because he set this team up, and IMO would have made just a marginal difference this season. After all, if just a handful of those early OT and close losses had gone just a basket or possession different, there would not be nearly the bold statements being made here, or on our own message boards.

As for the rumors about the current situation; it's hard to believe, but anything can happen. And while no good is going to come of this, I'll hold off on damming statements about him or how the program has free-fallen until the end of it all. Even then, if the rumors are true, I won't say that it is a sign of a complete shift with this program. It will come down to a person making a huge mistake; not a program.

As for Hinkle, I'm not sure where you guys are coming up with the numbers you are, because I believe the funding goal has been met, and actually exceeded. The announced renovations are ready to go after this season, and I believe will be in place for next season. And we can go round and round about the new arena vs. renovated historic field house; but I think Hinkle will be a much better facility after this is done - from the restrooms to the concourse, to the seating and game day experience.
https://news.butler.edu/blog/2014/01/hinkle-17-million/

All that said, it would be hard to deny any comments about this season being a dumpster fire; it has. I just won't go so far to say its a sign of whats to come. After year 3 for Miller, I'll make up my mind about what direction we're heading in and where we should head; any grand statements this year, or even next are just premature, IMO.

[Masterofreality]

This season has definitely been a perfect storm/ tsunami of "bad". Up until this most recent "incident" (which everyone is connecting the dots, and making some big assumptions) it was all actually not all that unexpected in a lot of ways. And I don't think it was any grand statement about how Butler fits in to the Big East, more so about the circumstances of this season, and the position we were in from a roster standpoint that is weaker, or at least more poorly assembled than most that we've had over the last 10-15 years. For those that say that all of this is a sign of whats to come post Stevens is just silly, because he set this team up, and IMO would have made just a marginal difference this season. After all, if just a handful of those early OT and close losses had gone just a basket or possession different, there would not be nearly the bold statements being made here, or on our own message boards.

As for the rumors about the current situation; it's hard to believe, but anything can happen. And while no good is going to come of this, I'll hold off on damming statements about him or how the program has free-fallen until the end of it all. Even then, if the rumors are true, I won't say that it is a sign of a complete shift with this program. It will come down to a person making a huge mistake; not a program.

As for Hinkle, I'm not sure where you guys are coming up with the numbers you are, because I believe the funding goal has been met, and actually exceeded. The announced renovations are ready to go after this season, and I believe will be in place for next season. And we can go round and round about the new arena vs. renovated historic field house; but I think Hinkle will be a much better facility after this is done - from the restrooms to the concourse, to the seating and game day experience.
https://news.butler.edu/blog/2014/01/hinkle-17-million/

All that said, it would be hard to deny any comments about this season being a dumpster fire; it has. I just won't go so far to say its a sign of whats to come. After year 3 for Miller, I'll make up my mind about what direction we're heading in and where we should head; any grand statements this year, or even next are just premature, IMO.

Public reps since I'm being repressed by Putin-esque tactics.

Solid report, Nil.

[xudash]

This season has definitely been a perfect storm/ tsunami of "bad". Up until this most recent "incident" (which everyone is connecting the dots, and making some big assumptions) it was all actually not all that unexpected in a lot of ways. And I don't think it was any grand statement about how Butler fits in to the Big East, more so about the circumstances of this season, and the position we were in from a roster standpoint that is weaker, or at least more poorly assembled than most that we've had over the last 10-15 years. For those that say that all of this is a sign of whats to come post Stevens is just silly, because he set this team up, and IMO would have made just a marginal difference this season. After all, if just a handful of those early OT and close losses had gone just a basket or possession different, there would not be nearly the bold statements being made here, or on our own message boards.

As for the rumors about the current situation; it's hard to believe, but anything can happen. And while no good is going to come of this, I'll hold off on damming statements about him or how the program has free-fallen until the end of it all. Even then, if the rumors are true, I won't say that it is a sign of a complete shift with this program. It will come down to a person making a huge mistake; not a program.

As for Hinkle, I'm not sure where you guys are coming up with the numbers you are, because I believe the funding goal has been met, and actually exceeded. The announced renovations are ready to go after this season, and I believe will be in place for next season. And we can go round and round about the new arena vs. renovated historic field house; but I think Hinkle will be a much better facility after this is done - from the restrooms to the concourse, to the seating and game day experience.
https://news.butler.edu/blog/2014/01/hinkle-17-million/

All that said, it would be hard to deny any comments about this season being a dumpster fire; it has. I just won't go so far to say its a sign of whats to come. After year 3 for Miller, I'll make up my mind about what direction we're heading in and where we should head; any grand statements this year, or even next are just premature, IMO.

This took about 15 seconds to Google: http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/ncaab/2013/05/20/hinkle-fieldhouse-renovations-costing-34-million-to-be-finished/2343325/

In a statement, Danko said $15.6 million of a $16 million fund-raising goal for Phase I has been reached. Phase II renovations will be "partially self-sustaining since upgrades include the addition of more premium seating," his statement said.

Butler will borrow to finance the project if the entire amount is not raised. Danko added Butler will save time and money with ongoing renovation "rather than two separate efforts."

The article is dated May, 20, 2013. It appears to be a $34 million project. There is a phasing aspect to the project, though they refer to it as an ongoing renovation. The article goes so far as to mention that Butler will utilize debt financing if it can't raise the entire amount. It doesn't sound like Butler has raised the stated target for the entire project, and it obviously is a phased project anyway. Perhaps it exceeded its goal for Phase I since last May, but Phase I is pegged at $23 million, and the funding target for that phase was $16 million with $15.6 million of it raised at that time.

Otherwise, I'm sure it will receive solid reviews when its completed, but at 9,100 seats and a private club, but with no suites, its revenue generating ability will be limited. Your fan base had better come through on the seat licensing part of this or Phase II will turn out not to be all that self-sustaining. You've historically had a weak/fickle fan base, so we'll see how all that turns out over the course of the next few years.

XUBREW'S assessment probably is as good as any.

[Nildogg]

This took about 15 seconds to Google: http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/ncaab/2013/05/20/hinkle-fieldhouse-renovations-costing-34-million-to-be-finished/2343325/

In a statement, Danko said $15.6 million of a $16 million fund-raising goal for Phase I has been reached. Phase II renovations will be "partially self-sustaining since upgrades include the addition of more premium seating," his statement said.

Butler will borrow to finance the project if the entire amount is not raised. Danko added Butler will save time and money with ongoing renovation "rather than two separate efforts."

The article is dated May, 20, 2013. It appears to be a $34 million project. There is a phasing aspect to the project, though they refer to it as an ongoing renovation. The article goes so far as to mention that Butler will utilize debt financing if it can't raise the entire amount. It doesn't sound like Butler has raised the stated target for the entire project, and it obviously is a phased project anyway. Perhaps it exceeded its goal for Phase I since last May, but Phase I is pegged at $23 million, and the funding target for that phase was $16 million with $15.6 million of it raised at that time.

Otherwise, I'm sure it will receive solid reviews when its completed, but at 9,100 seats and a private club, but with no suites, its revenue generating ability will be limited. Your fan base had better come through on the seat licensing part of this or Phase II will turn out not to be all that self-sustaining. You've historically had a weak/fickle fan base, so we'll see how all that turns out over the course of the next few years.

XUBREW'S assessment probably is as good as any.

Other than providing money to the cause, being a season ticket holder, and a very invested alumni, I have no inside information other than in talking to people around Hinkle that I know and these articles, but there is no other large sum of fundraising that has to be done to get these renovations underway. I think its pretty clear in this statement that the rest of the money is "self sustaining" (ticket sales, Bulldog Club donations, TV money, gameday revenue, etc.). I have never heard of anything regarding seat licensing. That would be out there by now.

If anything, I see positives in the fact that 17.1MM was raised towards the 16MM goal??

As much as some of you love to hate it, I find it ironic that almost anyone who visits Hinkle other than a rival fan, raves about it as one of the best places to watch basketball, period. Once its "updated" I don't see what's left; there's going to be the right balance between new and historic which is rare. I see no reason why you won't see the full effect of the renovation in time for the start of next season, but the disparaging comments about Hinkle will likely never end, and nor should they. After-all, I'm not all that impressed with Cintas other than the fact that its a nice new facility for a small private school - but that's because I hate Xavier. lol

[Nildogg]

Not sure if you actually clicked the link, but here you go:
Also in April 2014, work begins to expand Hinkle’s men’s and women’s basketball suites. A video room in the men’s suite has been named for former Bulldog Gordon Hayward, honoring the Utah Jazz shooting guard’s major campaign gift.

Simultaneously, Hinkle’s main gym and surrounding concourses will undergo several fan-friendly updates. Approximately 5,000 new chairback spectator seats will be installed from the arena floor level up to the walking track, providing more leg room and better accessibility to aisles. A new scoreboard will have video capability.

Additional concession stands will be built on both main floor and upper levels, and all visitor restrooms will be upgraded and expanded. The Wildman Room, the fieldhouse’s hospitality suite, will be tripled in size.

To allow for the final phase of construction, public access to most of the fieldhouse will be closed from April through the start of the Butler 2014-2015 basketball season in October.

[floorsweeper]

"My comment about them being half way through with their capital raise was I believe based on an IndyStar article that mentioned that they were at $17 million (committed, not funded) of $34 million required to effect the entire renovation plan"

You do of course realize the Cintas Center was funded in 1997 through a bond issue and is still not close to being fully paid for.

As usual XUDASH thanks for the laughs....................

[xudash]

Other than providing money to the cause, being a season ticket holder, and a very invested alumni, I have no inside information other than in talking to people around Hinkle that I know and these articles, but there is no other large sum of fundraising that has to be done to get these renovations underway. I think its pretty clear in this statement that the rest of the money is "self sustaining" (ticket sales, Bulldog Club donations, TV money, gameday revenue, etc.). I have never heard of anything regarding seat licensing. That would be out there by now.

If anything, I see positives in the fact that 17.1MM was raised towards the 16MM goal??

As much as some of you love to hate it, I find it ironic that almost anyone who visits Hinkle other than a rival fan, raves about it as one of the best places to watch basketball, period. Once its "updated" I don't see what's left; there's going to be the right balance between new and historic which is rare. I see no reason why you won't see the full effect of the renovation in time for the start of next season, but the disparaging comments about Hinkle will likely never end, and nor should they. After-all, I'm not all that impressed with Cintas other than the fact that its a nice new facility for a small private school - but that's because I hate Xavier. lol

I think I've been pretty clear to note that Hinkle should be nicely received when completed - I don't know how anyone could interpret "solid reviews" otherwise. I'm not impressed with Hinkle, but that's because I value the value and experience that a facility like the Cintas Center brings to Xavier.

Your earlier email mentioned that Butler had raised the money needed for the project. The article I posted suggests otherwise. I was addressing funding, not whether or not Butler was positioned to initiate the project financially. If it's still a $34 million project and you'll complete the financing through the sources you mentioned or via debt financing or both, so be it.

BTW, you handle "hate" with class. That can't be said for a few Butler idiots who manage to get themselves banned over here. Great reflection on Butler.

[floorsweeper]

So Hinkle renovations being partially funded through debt is an issue but the Cintas being almost entirely funded with debt isn't.

"I value the value and experience that a facility like the Cintas Center brings to Xavier."

Get back to us when The Cintas Center has to hire tour guides.....................

[floorsweeper]

"My brother lives in Indy and recently I asked him the status of the Hinkle Hall upgrade."

Wow he lives in Indy ! With unassailable credentials like that ..........................

[floorsweeper]

"I get tradition and all that, though the place looks like an antiquated zeppelin hanger on the outside, but thank God we have the Cintas Center."

Yeah the Cintas Center that looks like a warehouse from the outside. XUDASH you are a gift that just keeps on giving.

[LA Muskie]

We financed most of the cost of Cintas. As I understand it, Butler set a goal of raising 1/2 and financing the rest. They exceeded their goal. That's a success in my book.

[xubrew]

I don't post much on the Butler YUKU site, but I do read it occasionally.

Floorsweeper makes me laugh. He's seemingly as disliked over there as he is over here. You can say a lot of things about him (and be right), but you can't say that he's not candid.

[Nildogg]

I don't post much on the Butler YUKU site, but I do read it occasionally.

Floorsweeper makes me laugh. He's seemingly as disliked over there as he is over here. You can say a lot of things about him (and be right), but you can't say that he's not candid.

Some good, healthy "hate" is a good thing. While we are going to be getting our asses handed to us for a couple of years, we might as well get worked up over each other about something.

[xudash]

We financed most of the cost of Cintas. As I understand it, Butler set a goal of raising 1/2 and financing the rest. They exceeded their goal. That's a success in my book.

No we didn't. And it was a $46 million project at the time.

I never mentioned that Butler wasn't successful with this effort. Nil mentioned that Butler achieved its funding goal. I can see where I refocused that to achieving the entire project's financing requirement.

The bottom line is that Butler is moving forward with the project and that they hope to finish the balance of it through internally generated sources. If they fall short on that, they've noted that they'll use debt financing.

[Cheesehead]

Oh goodie, Floorsweeper is back. Hopefully, Butler can buy a clock too.

[floorsweeper]

nm

.

[Snipe]

I told you all at the beginning we should have kept this conference Catholic and taken St. Louis. I think this year bears that out.

More people should listen to me.

I hope this conference doesn't expand.

[floorsweeper]

No we didn't. And it was a $46 million project at the time.

I never mentioned that Butler wasn't successful with this effort. Nil mentioned that Butler achieved its funding goal. I can see where I refocused that to achieving the entire project's financing requirement.

The bottom line is that Butler is moving forward with the project and that they hope to finish the balance of it through internally generated sources. If they fall short on that, they've noted that they'll use debt financing.

"Jones' goal doesn't include the cost of servicing debt incurred to build the $50 million Cintas Center. The university financed the project's total cost by issuing bonds, Kucia said."

http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnat....html?page=all


Keep up your usual brilliant work DASH..........................

[floorsweeper]

I told you all at the beginning we should have kept this conference Catholic and taken St. Louis. I think this year bears that out.

More people should listen to me.

I hope this conference doesn't expand.

Remind us how good Xavier was last year when the Big East invitations were made.

[Snipe]

I don't think you get why we received the invitation. I think we were a no brainer for the Big East. You guys were one of several candidates.

Butler has a great program, but they aren't Catholic. And St. Louis is a bigger market with a bigger fan base, and one of the oldest Jesuit schools in the nation despite being so far west. SLU would have been a great fit for the Catholic league, and you guys don't pass that test.

But allowing Butler in showed everyone how DIVERSE we are or something, and not close minded. What rubbish. If we don't look out for Catholics who will. We should have supported our own tribe and taken a better fit for the conference. Butler will always be small time. It is in your DNA.

[LA Muskie]

No we didn't. And it was a $46 million project at the time.

I never mentioned that Butler wasn't successful with this effort. Nil mentioned that Butler achieved its funding goal. I can see where I refocused that to achieving the entire project's financing requirement.

The bottom line is that Butler is moving forward with the project and that they hope to finish the balance of it through internally generated sources. If they fall short on that, they've noted that they'll use debt financing.

What do you disagree with? Not that we financed much of Cintas I hope. The debt service on that is more than well documented.

[xudash]

What do you disagree with? Not that we financed much of Cintas I hope. The debt service on that is more than well documented.

I know there was a chunk of debt service structured into it, but I thought your use of "most" was off. Well, in defense of what you wrote, I understand they financed the project with the bond issue.

But the bond issue was backed up by the well known major donations that took care of a large chunk of the cost.

[Nildogg]

IIf we don't look out for Catholics who will. We should have supported our own tribe and taken a better fit for the conference. Butler will always be small time. It is in your DNA.

Really dude? lol I get a kick out of the attitude, in the name of rational thought I hope you are just showing some of that "hate" we were talking about earlier

[Masterofreality]

Really dude? lol I get a kick out of the attitude, in the name of rational thought I hope you are just showing some of that "hate" we were talking about earlier

Hang around. It gets better. :rolleyes:

[Muskie]

Really dude? lol I get a kick out of the attitude, in the name of rational thought I hope you are just showing some of that "hate" we were talking about earlier

Thankfully most of Snipe is schtick.

[kyxu]

Well, the Kameron Woods matter appears to have passed, as he played in Butler's loss to Providence last night.

[floorsweeper]

"But allowing Butler in showed everyone how DIVERSE we are or something, and not close minded. What rubbish."

When Xavier starts restricting basketball scholarships and student admissions to only Catholics please let us know.

Actually if your post was an attempt at humor it's really pretty funny.

[Masterofreality]

"But allowing Butler in showed everyone how DIVERSE we are or something, and not close minded. What rubbish."

When Xavier starts restricting basketball scholarships and student admissions to only Catholics please let us know.

Actually if your post was an attempt at humor it's really pretty funny.

Why are you still here? I could care less about going on a Butler board. Your team, season and program is in shambles. Don't you have some unidentified bodily fluid to wipe off of that barn floor of yours?

[Cheesehead]

I heard Butler was founded by a religious cult. I saw it on the internet. So it must be true.

[Nildogg]

I heard Butler was founded by a religious cult. I saw it on the internet. So it must be true.

I wish they could have passed down some sort of voodoo that would result in more defensive effort.

[LA Muskie]

I know there was a chunk of debt service structured into it, but I thought your use of "most" was off. Well, in defense of what you wrote, I understand they financed the project with the bond issue.

But the bond issue was backed up by the well known major donations that took care of a large chunk of the cost.

Fair enough. We used debt strategically. Butler may be doing the same.

[floorsweeper]

"But the bond issue was backed up by the well known major donations that took care of a large chunk of the cost."

http://www.enquirer.com/xavier/1998/02/022198_arena.html

"Half of the price tag of Xavier's center was covered by donations. The rest will come from arena seat sales and commercial contracts."

Yeah I guess half is "large chunk" where Xavier is concerned, but for Butler it's a problem. Sheeesh.......................

[xudash]

I wish they could have passed down some sort of voodoo that would result in more defensive effort.

Since you hate us, you'll be happy to read that we didn't receive any of it - in any religious form - as well.