Favre Retiring

[PM Thor]

ESPN is reporting that Favre is retiring.

I gotta say, he was my favorite player in the league. Just a really entertaining, good old boy who was addicted to pain killers. I for one am going to miss seeing him on the field.

[DC Muskie]

This is a sad day for all the guys who cover the NFL. Their boyfriend won't be around to smooch anymore.

[spongebob]

I was never particularly fond of the Pack, but he sure turned me into a fan. Plus, he was a kick arse Fantasy player.

[Muskie]

Sad that the last play he had was that horrible interception. I'm sure we'll see Brett on TV sooner rather than later.

[The Artist]

Sorry if I'm being insensitive...

...but it's about damn time.

[Raoul Duke]

Sorry if I'm being insensitive...

...but it's about damn time.

Out of curiosity, what makes you say that? He led a nearly championship-caliber team last season.

The only beef I would have is that he never seemed remotely interested in Aaron Rogers' development; it's like he almost resented knowing Rogers would someday take over his job.

[The Artist]

My main thing is the reason you stated. I think he's actually set the packers BACK a few years.

The other thing is I'm sick of hearing about him and his *toughness*. He had a great year this year, however, I think he was one of the most overrated QBs to ever play the game (but, I'll compare this to how people say Nolan Ryan was overrated).

Many years he was the beneficiary of a great team around him. The time that specifically sticks out is the monday night game after his father died where he put up ridiculous numbers. Watching that game, I noticed how he made very, very few good throws, and had 5-6 big plays where he simply threw a jump ball and the receiver came down with it.

He is a gunslinger who had a very successful career, but is not worth all the press he gets.

[spongebob]

My main thing is the reason you stated. I think he's actually set the packers BACK a few years.

The other thing is I'm sick of hearing about him and his *toughness*. He had a great year this year, however, I think he was one of the most overrated QBs to ever play the game (but, I'll compare this to how people say Nolan Ryan was overrated).

Many years he was the beneficiary of a great team around him. The time that specifically sticks out is the monday night game after his father died where he put up ridiculous numbers. Watching that game, I noticed how he made very, very few good throws, and had 5-6 big plays where he simply threw a jump ball and the receiver came down with it.

He is a gunslinger who had a very successful career, but is not worth all the press he gets.

A, gee, lets see. Probably one of the top ten all time qb's. Never missed a start in what, 17 years?? Likely first ballot eligible HOF'er. Set the Packers back????? How does that happen when you are taking them to the playoffs? Is that going the wrong direction?? BTW, where has it ever been said that he took no interest in his successor? I would sure love to hear Rodgers take on that.

[The Artist]

A, gee, lets see. Probably one of the top ten all time qb's. Never missed a start in what, 17 years?? Likely first ballot eligible HOF'er. Set the Packers back????? How does that happen when you are taking them to the playoffs? Is that going the wrong direction?? BTW, where has it ever been said that he took no interest in his successor? I would sure love to hear Rodgers take on that.

If this was MM, it would say

Location: WI

[The Artist]

A, gee, lets see. Probably one of the top ten all time qb's. Never missed a start in what, 17 years?? Likely first ballot eligible HOF'er. Set the Packers back????? How does that happen when you are taking them to the playoffs? Is that going the wrong direction?? BTW, where has it ever been said that he took no interest in his successor? I would sure love to hear Rodgers take on that.

And to answer your question, look at the two scenarios:

1) Favre retires 2 years ago
2) Favre retires now

All I am saying is the Packers would have a better 2008 season if scenario 1 had taken place.

Sorry for apparently striking a nerve. Jeebus.

[Raoul Duke]

A, gee, lets see. Probably one of the top ten all time qb's. Never missed a start in what, 17 years?? Likely first ballot eligible HOF'er. Set the Packers back????? How does that happen when you are taking them to the playoffs? Is that going the wrong direction?? BTW, where has it ever been said that he took no interest in his successor? I would sure love to hear Rodgers take on that.

It has been mentioned a number of times by the national media throughout Rogers' tenure. I believe Favre at one point was quoted as saying something like, "it's not my job to help his development, I'm not here to give him advice; if he wants to learn from me, he has to take it upon himself."

I'm not saying there's anything necessarily wrong with that attitude. I just thought if you're a pack fan it might be nice to see some continuity between quarterbacks. Kitna was instrumental in Palmer's development. Bengals fans have a ton of respect for Kitna for that.

[Cheesehead]

Ok, as a lifelong Packer fan and as a person born and raised in Wisconsin, anyone who says Favre was overrated simply doesn't know football. Say what you want about his apprenticeship skills to Rogers but I think it's because Brett had to work for everything he has achieved and expects others to do the same. He was overlooked in the draft, dumped by the Falcons and became the ONLY 3-time MVP w/ the Pack who were dismal before he arrived. Look at the stats & tell me he didn't make them a better team.

Saying he wasn't that good is like saying Joe Torre can't manage and Phil Jackson isn't that great of a coach. Give me a freaking break! Easily in the top 5 quarterbacks of all time. Yes, he tried to do too much at times but when you hear so many other players say that he is one of the few guys they would pay to see play, one knows he was special. His consecutive starting streak is absolutely amazing; the injuries he played with would probably make the Artist puke.

[DC Muskie]

I didn't realize Favre cured cancer, defeated terrorism, built hospitals and still had time to become an NFL quarterback.

Good luck Brett. You'll be missed, not so much by me, but guys like Buck, Berman and Madden.

[The Artist]

Ok, as a lifelong Packer fan and as a person born and raised in Wisconsin, anyone who says Favre was overrated simply doesn't know football. Say what you want about his apprenticeship skills to Rogers but I think it's because Brett had to work for everything he has achieved and expects others to do the same. He was overlooked in the draft, dumped by the Falcons and became the ONLY 3-time MVP w/ the Pack who were dismal before he arrived. Look at the stats & tell me he didn't make them a better team.

Saying he wasn't that good is like saying Joe Torre can't manage and Phil Jackson isn't that great of a coach. Give me a freaking break! Easily in the top 5 quarterbacks of all time. Yes, he tried to do too much at times but when you hear so many other players say that he is one of the few guys they would pay to see play, one knows he was special. His consecutive starting streak is absolutely amazing; the injuries he played with would probably make the Artist puke.

Well if you say I don't know football, then that settles it! I'll be happy to put my knowledge on the line any day of the week.

Not sure where anybody said he was not good (in fact I said the opposite), but feel free to put words in mouths whenever needed.

And of course he was never hesitant to let everybody know about all those terrible injuries he had an how he played through them showing toughness and grit that only he possesses, right?

[The Artist]

I didn't realize Favre cured cancer, defeated terrorism, built hospitals and still had time to become an NFL quarterback.

Good luck Brett. You'll be missed, not so much by me, but guys like Buck, Berman and Madden.

We agree. This is kinda weird. I'm not sure where to go from here...

[DC Muskie]

We agree. This is kinda weird. I'm not sure where to go from here...

We just nod and go our separate ways then. I think. I'm not sure.

[Cheesehead]

Wow, such cyncial people on this board. I thought I was back on MM for a minute.

I don't ever recall Favre telling everyone how injured he was. That's not his style, so it shows you don't know much about him.

People are just giving a Hall of Famer and a true Ironman his due. Relax, it won't be on Sportscenter by the end of the week and your life won't be interrupted by it anymore.

[DC Muskie]

People are just giving a Hall of Famer and a true Ironman his due. Relax, it won't be on Sportscenter by the end of the week...

Are you kidding me? This is going to be on all summer long.

Don't get me wrong, Favre was great. But I didn't see the accolades for Darrell Green when he retired and he was just as much a Hall of Famer and Ironman as Favre.

[Cheesehead]

With all due respect to Darrell Green and his very fine career, but are you really going to compare a DB w/ a 3-time NFL MVP QB?

I get what you're saying and this will sound crazy but I had to look up Darell Green, as I couldn't even recall the team he played for and how long he played.

I guess we are going to agree to disagree on the importance of Favre and his impact on the game...

[DC Muskie]

With all due respect to Darrell Green and his very fine career, but are you really going to compare a DB w/ a 3-time NFL MVP QB?

Yeah the NFL MVP is such a standard bearer of the best player in football.

Ever notice that defensive players NEVER win these awards? To me when Rich Gannon and Kurt Warner win it, then the award doesn't mean that much. But congrats to Favre. He can stack those trophies next to his one Super Bowl ring.

How in the world don't you know about Darrell Green? You must not follow football. The guy played the toughest position in football for 20 years. First ballot Hall of Fame. And major supporter of the Washington Jesuit Academy.

[GoMuskies]

And major supporter of the Washington Jesuit Academy.


Oh yeah, THAT Darrell Green.

[THRILLHOUSE]

I get what you're saying and this will sound crazy but I had to look up Darell Green, as I couldn't even recall the team he played for and how long he played.



How can anyone tell someone else that "they don't know football" if they don't know who Green is??? And I agree with DC, Favre is an all time great but should have retired a couple of season ago. I grew tired of the media fellating Favre and never blaming him for anything. Somehow all of his interceptions were his receivers fault not his according to guys like Madden and Berman.

[GoMuskies]

It is sort of fitting that Favre's last NFL pass was in an NFC championship game....and was a ridiculous interception that cost his team the game. It was sort of Favre's career in a nutshell.

[Cheesehead]

You guys have issues. Whatever. I'd be the first to admit he took too many chances w/ bad throws at times but I'd still want him under center. You always knew he gave it his all and that he gave a damn. He played w/ passion and truly enjoyed what he was doing & appreciated being able to make a living playing a game.

You might remember his last pass as an interception but I'll remember back to back Super Bowl Appearances, 7 divisional Titles, 8 seasons w/ 30 or more TD's, 16 consecutive seasons w/ 3,000 yards in passing, 160 wins as a starter, 257 starts, 442 TD's, 61,655 total passing yards, and the ONLY 3-time league MVP. I'll remember him making ridiculous plays for first downs when he should have been sacked for 15 yards and doing it w/ a boyish grin on his face. And what about his cameo in "There's Something about Mary"!

Ok, I'm done now. You guys can say whatever the hell you want.

[Cheesehead]

Washington Jesuit Academy? WTF? Again, got nothing. Oh, that's right everything revolves around D.C. (only kidding)

[XURunner85]

I think it is about time he retired....then again I was born and raised in Chicago...and we hate the Packers....

[GoMuskies]

You might remember his last pass as an interception but I'll remember

You clearly missed my point. You got half of it right. The other half was the fact that it was in an NFC Championship Game. In other words, he had a ton of success but sometimes made huge mistakes that cost his team games.

[The Artist]

You guys have issues. Whatever. I'd be the first to admit he took too many chances w/ bad throws at times but I'd still want him under center. You always knew he gave it his all and that he gave a damn. He played w/ passion and truly enjoyed what he was doing & appreciated being able to make a living playing a game.

You might remember his last pass as an interception but I'll remember back to back Super Bowl Appearances, 7 divisional Titles, 8 seasons w/ 30 or more TD's, 16 consecutive seasons w/ 3,000 yards in passing, 160 wins as a starter, 257 starts, 442 TD's, 61,655 total passing yards, and the ONLY 3-time league MVP. I'll remember him making ridiculous plays for first downs when he should have been sacked for 15 yards and doing it w/ a boyish grin on his face. And what about his cameo in "There's Something about Mary"!

Ok, I'm done now. You guys can say whatever the hell you want.

I'm not sure what you're trying to get across? Nobody's really denying what you're saying. He was a very good, perhaps great quarterback, but overrated (similar to Nolan Ryan, as I said).

[Cheesehead]

Well, I guess my point is I don't feel he was overrated. I'm not sure how a top 5 quarterback (argubly) all-time is ovverrated? Yeah, that Nolan Ryan sure was overrated: 324 wins, lifetime 3.19 ERA (guys would get 10 million a year for ERA's like that these days), 222 Complete Games, 5,714 SO's. He sure sucked. Sure, he lost 292 games but he played on a lot of crappy teams too. While we're at, Cal Ripken sucked monkey balls.

Now, I do think Tom Brady is overrated but I guess that's crazy talk.

[Fred Garvin]

Yeah, Nolan Ryan sucked. That Artist sure is a thinker. It wasn't til now that I realized he was Robin Ventura.

And Brett Favre was a legend...almost as good as Lynn Dickey and Don Majikowski. The Magic Man was the man!

[PM Thor]

I really don't care what anyone says, but Favre was entertaining. Win or lose, the man put it all out there. Sure, sometimes he sucked, and yes I cut him from my fantasy team prior to last year because two years ago he was horrible in fantasy (terrible, terrible season and a terrible decision by me too).

The league is worse off without Favre. I wish I had seen him in person.

[The Artist]

Yeah, Nolan Ryan sucked. That Artist sure is a thinker. It wasn't til now that I realized he was Robin Ventura.

And Brett Favre was a legend...almost as good as Lynn Dickey and Don Majikowski. The Magic Man was the man!

Just about a .500 career record, most walks of all time(?), and while you're at it, how about you look up how many Cy Youngs he won.

You guys are borderline approaching those stats they show at Reds games like "Norris Hopper is batting .455 in his last 8 games in which the grass was a little longer than normal".

Feel free to ignore any of the stats that don't help your argument, and on a side note, only about a bajillion people agree with me on Ryan, look it up.

And I love how "overrated" all of a sudden means "not good" and "sucked", but I've come to expect nothing less from Fred. Maybe reading more posts will help, buddy.

[The Artist]

And to add upon my "thinking":

http://espn.go.com/page2/s/list/alltimeoverrated.html

"The Stark Truth" by Jayson Stark

http://www.mike-greenberg.com/?p=280

I swear I didn't read the last one until I started looking for evidence.

The funny thing is, when I searched, I didn't even put in Ryan's name. Just "most overrated baseball players of all time", and far more than these popped up.

All you Favre people, I encourage you to look at especially the last one.

If you disagree, fine. But to insult and put people on the defensive is risky.

[DC Muskie]

The Washington Jesuit Academy is awesome!

I think Favre was fun to watch for sure. I just hated listening to people like Buck who actually said, "You (Favre) seem to lead the league in smiles." You know off camera Joe is asking what Brett is doing after the game.

[Cheesehead]

Ok, so you have 2 people's opinions and I guess they are "experts" because they are employed by ESPN. BTW: Greenberg's article did nothing to further your argument. He basically said Favre is overrated and backed it up w/ nothing. Strong stuff.

Moving on.

[Fred Garvin]

I'm disappointed the Artist couldn't come up with some better sources. The Jayson Stark comments were ridiculous. I love how he acknowledges that Ryan played on "mediocre" teams and then faults Ryan for not winning Cy Youngs. Ah, don't you think playing on better teams, and amassing more wins, improves your chances of winning Cy Youngs?

The Greenburg argument is just a big misnomber. He should have just wrote a piece titled "Why Nolan Ryan doesn't deserve to have the highest % of votes for the Hall of Fame." Then I'd be right there with him. Hell, he even admits Ryan deserves to be a 1st ballot Hall of Famer.

I like how the Artist tries to make "overrated" a semantic argument. He says that overrated doesn't equal suck, etc. My question is how do you even know if you don't know someone's personal rating of Ryan or Favre? Let's look at those who say Ryan is overrated.

Greenburg says Ryan is a first ballot HOF. Let's say the Artist disagrees. Thus Greenburg concludes that the Artist has Nolan Ryan underrated. I agree with Mike Greenburg that The Artist has Nolan Ryan underrated.

[Pajama Joe]

Hey Artist...you suck.

[Cheesehead]

Amen! Preaching to the Choir.

[Bignose Liar]

I remember watching his first game against the Bungals (yes that year they were the Bungals not the Bengals) and knew he was going to be good. Great career besides the whole drug addiction.

[Pajama Joe]

Addiction to painkillers = very minimal problem. he recognized it and fixed it. At least it wasn't pot. I don't even consider it a part of his career anymore. Completely forgot about it, as should the rest of the world. Really...how long ago was that?

[joebba]

Addiction to painkillers = very minimal problem. he recognized it and fixed it. At least it wasn't pot. I don't even consider it a part of his career anymore. Completely forgot about it, as should the rest of the world. Really...how long ago was that?


I agree on the painkiller thing. I had a sinus surgery about 3 1/2 years ago. Vicodin was my pain medication. After I had the stuffing taken out of my nose a week later and a few days later one day I had a bad headache (part of the healing process) and had one vicodin left. That pill sent me sky high and I could see how easy it would be to get addicted. Needless to say I did not need that pill for the headache and was glad I only had one left.

Usually narcotics do not have a narcotic effect when used in the proper circumstance for the proper purpose.

[DC Muskie]

I'm disappointed the Artist couldn't come up with some better sources. The Jayson Stark comments were ridiculous. I love how he acknowledges that Ryan played on "mediocre" teams and then faults Ryan for not winning Cy Youngs. Ah, don't you think playing on better teams, and amassing more wins, improves your chances of winning Cy Youngs?

I think Fred wants Artist to have better sources then a guy who covers baseball for a living.

In 1972, Ryan won 19 games for the Angles. They won 75 games that year. Who know who won the Cy Young? Gaylord Perry, who won 24 games for the Indians who won 72.

You know how you also lose games in baseball? You walk people. People who are on base improves your opposition's chances of scoring, which can lead to your pitcher not winning many games. Like in 1972 when Ryan pitched 284 innings and walked 157 batters. He did strike out 329 though. Perry on the other hand pitched 58 more innings, struck out 95 less, but more importantly, walked 75 fewer batters. That's a lot. Could be the difference between saying, winning 24 games on a 72 win team, and winning 19 on a team that won 75.

Now I'm not suggesting Ryan or Favre were "overrated", but let's not get carried away here.

[The Artist]

I would like to point out one more thing real quick:

Cheesehead earlier said Tom Brady is overrated. I agree 100%, and he's probably my favorite player.

Here's the average season for a hypothetical player 1. For simplicity sake, we'll call him Breet Favrey:

Yards: 3854
PCT: 61.4%
TD: 28
INT: 18

If, let's say, those numbers were to be for someone who had a 17 year career (I ignored the first one), those would be spectacular numbers, and he'd be a first ballot HOF no doubt.

Here's the average season for a hypothetical player 2. For simplicity sake, we'll call him Thomas Brad:

Yards: 3767
PCT: 63.0%
TD: 28
INT: 12


uh oh...

The fact of the matter is the media will make a darling out of anybody who has a long career like Brett.

[Pajama Joe]

Artist...no offense here, but I'm not sure I follow. To prove that favre shouldn't get all of this hype, you compare him to the best current player, who will probably end up with the same retirement party as brett is getting when he chooses to retire (assuming he keeps up with his ridiculous hot hand)?

Am I supposed to be in awe that Favre and Brady's stats are almost identical? To be honest, I'm surprised Brady's stats aren't better in ever category.

[Cheesehead]

Poor 'ole Tom hasn't dealt w/ nearly the adversity that Bret Favre has had to deal with and that's why people pull for him and like the guy so much. It's not always about the stats; sometimes it's also about character. Tom's biggest problem is which supermodel and/or actress to knock up.

BTW: Yes, Brett had a child in college w/ Deanna, (their oldest daughter) but they loved each other and they got married and have had a very healthy marriage since that time. I'm not sure why we are even talking about this anymore. We disagree, so what.

[The Artist]

Artist...no offense here, but I'm not sure I follow. To prove that favre shouldn't get all of this hype, you compare him to the best current player, who will probably end up with the same retirement party as brett is getting when he chooses to retire (assuming he keeps up with his ridiculous hot hand)?

Am I supposed to be in awe that Favre and Brady's stats are almost identical? To be honest, I'm surprised Brady's stats aren't better in ever category.

Correct. I am saying they are very similar in hype and stats.

However, Cheese feels Brady is overrated, but not Favre.

[DC Muskie]

Poor old Brett got addicted to drugs.

[Cheesehead]

DC: Actually that's WAS addicted to drugs and that was over 10 years ago... He has led a pretty "boring" life in that area since that time. I as far as I know, he gave up drinking too.

[Pajama Joe]

Correct. I am saying they are very similar in hype and stats.

However, Cheese feels Brady is overrated, but not Favre.

Aha, I see. Did not know this. I've been trying to only read the posts I want to read. There are a lot of stupid ones on here. Just like DC's.

[Fred Garvin]

I think Fred wants Artist to have better sources then a guy who covers baseball for a living.

In 1972, Ryan won 19 games for the Angles. They won 75 games that year. Who know who won the Cy Young? Gaylord Perry, who won 24 games for the Indians who won 72.

You know how you also lose games in baseball? You walk people. People who are on base improves your opposition's chances of scoring, which can lead to your pitcher not winning many games. Like in 1972 when Ryan pitched 284 innings and walked 157 batters. He did strike out 329 though. Perry on the other hand pitched 58 more innings, struck out 95 less, but more importantly, walked 75 fewer batters. That's a lot. Could be the difference between saying, winning 24 games on a 72 win team, and winning 19 on a team that won 75.

Now I'm not suggesting Ryan or Favre were "overrated", but let's not get carried away here.


I'm sure DC likes Garyord Perry over Nolan Ryan. Gaylord Perry cheated.
I'm sure DC likes John Wooden over Bob Knight. John Wooden cheated.
I"m sure DC likes JFK over Nixon. JFK cheated(against Nixon no less).

I'm sure DC Muskie has no integrity.

[Fred Garvin]

And Jayson Stark is a baseball guru. After all, he writes about baseball for a living! Wow, I guess Jonathan Alter knows politics. I mean he does write about it for a living. That political expert said just last week that Hilary Clinton should drop out before the Texas and Ohio primaries....gurus I tell you.

[DC Muskie]

Fred only respects the opinions of people who think like him. So Fred respects no one. Fred is his own guru. There are no experts anywhere. Except for Fred.

[DC Muskie]

I'm sure DC likes Garyord Perry over Nolan Ryan. Gaylord Perry cheated.
I'm sure DC likes John Wooden over Bob Knight. John Wooden cheated.
I"m sure DC likes JFK over Nixon. JFK cheated(against Nixon no less).

I'm sure DC Muskie has no integrity.

What does my personal opinion of people have to do with facts. You got rolled with facts and then turn this into who I like.

For the record I like Perry because he played for the Indians.

I have no integrity. That part you got correct.

[Fred Garvin]

Fred only respects the opinions of people who think like him. So Fred respects no one. Fred is his own guru. There are no experts anywhere. Except for Fred.

beats your liberal groupthink.

[Fred Garvin]

Poor old Brett got addicted to drugs.

Classy, I always knew your facade of compassion was just that.

[Fred Garvin]

What does my personal opinion of people have to do with facts. You got rolled with facts and then turn this into who I like.

For the record I like Perry because he played for the Indians.

I have no integrity. That part you got correct.


Ha! You've never "rolled" me in any debate. Smart you're not. I've always thought of you as the liberal version of Filthy.

BTW, I love how you capriciously isolate the year 1972 out of Nolan Ryan's entire career. Boy, that proved a lot.

[D-West & PO-Z]

Did no one really post this article by Sal? Here it is: http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/columns/story?columnist=paolantonio_sal&id=3281535

"Favre isn't even the greatest quarterback in the history of the Packers. It's not even close. Bart Starr won five NFL championships -- four more than Favre -- and retired as the NFL's most accurate passer."

[DC Muskie]

beats your liberal groupthink.

Huh? I have no idea what this means. Good comeback though.

[DC Muskie]

Classy, I always knew your facade of compassion was just that.

I just follow the lead of my president.

I figured since you wanted to turn this into something political I'd throw you a bone.

[DC Muskie]

Ha! You've never "rolled" me in any debate. Smart you're not. I've always thought of you as the liberal version of Filthy.

BTW, I love how you capriciously isolate the year 1972 out of Nolan Ryan's entire career. Boy, that proved a lot.

Okay, now you turned into yoda. You made a point that guys like Stark aren't experts. The same group of "experts" or "sportswriters" vote for the Cy Young. If Nolan Ryan was such a shoe in, then why in the world couldn't he win just one?

And don't you think it says something when a guy who pitches for the Indians, who were in the mist of 30 years of losing, wins, but Nolan doesn't?

All I did was prove you wrong.

[XUglow]

Oh, wow. Arguing using stats... How much fun...

Favre was great. Ryan was great. Put someone just like them on my teams any day.

Sheesh, guys. Ryan walked a lot of people because they basically had no other choice than to take pitches and hope the ump called balls. He pitched for 27 years! Think of that... 27 years in the bigs. He struck out better than 25% of the people that he faced. He gave up 0.729 hits per IP. Koufax was 0.755. Seaver was 0.831. Gaylord Perry was 0.923. He has a career ERA of 3.19. I went to game in Candlestick in the early 80's when Ryan was pitching. Ryan put down my Giants in the first on 9 fastballs -- all called strikes. In the second, he struck out the first batter up with 3 fastballs -- all called strikes. Then Jack Clark foul tipped one back to the screen and got a standing O from the locals.

[DC Muskie]

Favre was great. Ryan was great.

I'm not disputing either. I just think it's funny that someone as great as Ryan never won the top pitching award in 27 years. I mean Pat Heagan won one.

[XUglow]

I'm not disputing either. I just think it's funny that someone as great as Ryan never won the top pitching award in 27 years. I mean Pat Heagan won one.

Playing for crap teams certainly hurt him there. He wanted to stay in TX close to home for most of his career. I liken this issue to great actors that never won an Oscar. Ryan's the Peter O'Toole of pitching.

[DC Muskie]

Playing for crap teams certainly hurt him there. He wanted to stay in TX close to home for most of his career. I liken this issue to great actors that never won an Oscar. Ryan's the Peter O'Toole of pitching.

Huh? ?????

[XUglow]

Huh? ?????

Let me explain... no, let me summarize. Peter O'Toole never won an Oscar. Nolan Ryan never won a Cy Young. O'Toole was a great actor. Ryan was a great pitcher.

[DC Muskie]

Let me explain... no, let me summarize. Peter O'Toole never won an Oscar. Nolan Ryan never won a Cy Young. O'Toole was a great actor. Ryan was a great pitcher.

So Peter O'Toole was in some lousy movies? Did he want to stay close to home?

I think the comparison is so off the wall that's all. What else you got?

Bob Dole was a great statesmen. He never won the presidency.

[XUglow]

So Peter O'Toole was in some lousy movies? Did he want to stay close to home?

I think the comparison is so off the wall that's all. What else you got?

Bob Dole was a great statesmen. He never won the presidency.

Peter O'Toole was nominated for Oscar's Best Actor award 8 times and Ryan finished in the top 5 of the Cy Young 6 times. Seems to me like my analogy is pretty on the wall. That's all.

[DC Muskie]

Peter O'Toole was nominated for Oscar's Best Actor award 8 times and Ryan finished in the top 5 of the Cy Young 6 times. Seems to me like my analogy is pretty on the wall. That's all.

Really? Baseball is an industry based on stats. Hollywood is based on whether you lost weight for seven months while shooting a movie about AIDS.

[Cheesehead]

Threre's just no pleasing DC Muskie. Unless it's a Hooker.

[DC Muskie]

Threre's just no pleasing DC Muskie. Unless it's a Hooker.

Not a $4,000 one though. I don't have that kind of cash.

[Cheesehead]

Who does? How can anyone be that hard up? Do you know what I could do to my house w/ $4,000? I heard he used the service 8 times in the last 8-9 months. Idiot.

[Lloyd Christmas]

It has been reported that Spitzer has spent upwards of $80,000 in the past 10 years on hookers.

[XUglow]

Really? Baseball is an industry based on stats. Hollywood is based on whether you lost weight for seven months while shooting a movie about AIDS.

The Cy Young award isn't based on stats. It is a popularity contest voted on by snobby members of a select group very much like the Oscars. That is why I used that particular analogy. If the Cy Young was based on a formula, one would know who won the day the season is over. It isn't at all like the batting or home run title.

[DC Muskie]

I just can't get over the fact she cost that much. Just goes to show you, if you don't check the ingredients, you're likable to dump some serious cash on something that was made in Jersey.

[DC Muskie]

The Cy Young award isn't based on stats. It is a popularity contest voted on by snobby members of a select group very much like the Oscars. That is why I used that particular analogy. If the Cy Young was based on a formula, one would know who won the day the season is over. It isn't at all like the batting or home run title.

It's not based on stats? I thought people were arguing that Ryan couldn't win it because he played on crappy teams who never won. Who know it was a popularity contest.

Did you have an idea who was going to win last season? In the American League people were deciding between Sabathia and Beckett. Maybe Westbrook should have been considered, he's a pretty good guy.

That snobby members of a select group also voted Ryan into the Hall of Fame.

And O'Toole got an Oscar, one made especially for him. I guess that snobby group shouldn't have done that either.

[XUglow]

It's not based on stats? I thought people were arguing that Ryan couldn't win it because he played on crappy teams who never won. Who know it was a popularity contest.

Did you have an idea who was going to win last season? In the American League people were deciding between Sabathia and Beckett. Maybe Westbrook should have been considered, he's a pretty good guy.

That snobby members of a select group also voted Ryan into the Hall of Fame.

And O'Toole got an Oscar, one made especially for him. I guess that snobby group shouldn't have done that either.

You are making my case for me on lifetime achievement awards and HoF. Thanks. This analogy grows stronger hour by hour. You are caving. I can tell.

[DC Muskie]

You are making my case for me on lifetime achievement awards and HoF. Thanks. This analogy grows stronger hour by hour. You are caving. I can tell.

Huh? I'm confused. I never said Ryan was unworthy of the HOF. I just pointed out how funny it was he never won the biggest award in his profession and one could argue in a way he was overrated. You then claimed that Peter O'Toole is a great actor who never won an academy award but is still considered great.

Then
I pointed out that O'Toole did win an academy award.

And somehow I'm wrong?

Where did this go off the tracks? Are we still talking about baseball? Or Favre?

[XUglow]

Huh? I'm confused. I never said Ryan was unworthy of the HOF. I just pointed out how funny it was he never won the biggest award in his profession and one could argue in a way he was overrated. You then claimed that Peter O'Toole is a great actor who never won an academy award but is still considered great.

Then
I pointed out that O'Toole did win an academy award.

And somehow I'm wrong?

Where did this go off the tracks? Are we still talking about baseball? Or Favre?

Follow me. O'Toole never "won" the Oscar for Best Actor. He "received" an Oscar for Lifetime Achievement. O'Toole's award wasn't a contest. The Academy members were asked to vote if he deserved the award. That is basically equivalent to being voted into the Hall of Fame.

Favre was fantastic. I will miss him.

[DC Muskie]

Actually no one "wins" an Academy Ward. They stopped saying 'the winner is..." years ago. They all receive the award, so I guess it's not much of a competition then?

Look, I'm done busting your balls on this. I concede. On whatever point you were trying to make.

Your daughter still married by the way? Just wondering.

[XUglow]

Yes, she is still married.

[Muskie]

What in the world have you guys been babbling about for pages?

[XUglow]

What in the world have you guys been babbling about for pages?

DC and I go way, way back. When he argues with me about something with me, he is really saying, "Why didn't you tell me about your daughter BEFORE she got married?" I tried to make it up to him by offering him a pass to the Vivid Video Lingerie Ball in Vegas, but it was his cribbage night... or so he said.

[xavierdude]

What in the world have you guys been babbling about for pages?

can we put this thread to rest?

[DC Muskie]

I would like to point out, that despite Glow being my hero, he wants nothing to do with me joining his family. No Vivid Video Lingerie Ball can replace Thanksgiving dinner at the Glow household.

[Cheesehead]

This was about Bret Favre at one time.

[KC4X]

Yeah, kinda like the other thread about Drew's injury getting morphed into a debate about comedies. Start a new thread, people!

[D-West & PO-Z]

Yeah, kinda like the other thread about Drew's injury getting morphed into a debate about comedies. Start a new thread, people!

Yeah, sorry bout that, I didnt start it, but I had a big part in continuing it. Although here I posted the article that Sal wrote on espn.com about Favre being overrated hoping to keep the convo going but no one commented on it, oh well.