Democrat for a Day

[xeus]

I will be voting on the Democratic ballot (for OBAMA) in tomorrow's Ohio primary.

I can't stand the thought of four years of this:

http://d.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/rids/20080303/i/r631112328.jpg?

[Snipe]

The better bet would be to vote for Hillary. She could tear the party apart with a delegate battle because neither candidate will get enough in the primaries and she is the favorite of true Democrats. That would be entertaining.

[Snipe]

Republicans for Hillary: The Anecdotal Evidence Builds (http://www.reason.com/blog/show/125289.html)

Once you vote in the primary you will be a registered Democrat and you will get calls from Democrats around election time to get out the vote. I find those calls amusing. I am a registered Democrat in the State of Ohio. I voted in the last primary.

[Stonebreaker]

I would vote for Hillary...Obama is pretty left wing, while Hillary is more pragmatic. I don't think Obama can be beaten, nor does McCain stand a chance.

Meet our next president........"Barack Hussein Obama". Yikes.


Actually, I would vote for Chuck Norris. Just sayin.

[xeus]

Snipe, I thought for sure you'd be voting for this fruitcake:

Steve Kissing (http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080303/NEWS01/803030326/1077/COL02)

[Snipe]

If I was voting in the Republican primary I would be voting for Ron Paul.

[Snipe]

I would vote for Hillary...Obama is pretty left wing, while Hillary is more pragmatic. I don't think Obama can be beaten, nor does McCain stand a chance.

Meet our next president........"Barack Hussein Obama". Yikes.


Actually, I would vote for Chuck Norris. Just sayin.

Hillary could do a great job of tearing the party apart just by staying in the election. If Hillary wins Texas and Ohio things could get interesting.

[joebba]

If Shrillery Clinton gets elected many people will lose their high frequency hearing.
http://www.clevelandseniors.com/images/quiz/famous/bill-hillary-clinton.jpg

[joebba]

Thread here. (http://www.xavierhoops.com/forums/showthread.php?p=20732#post20732)

[Stonebreaker]

If Shrillery Clinton gets elected many people will lose their high frequency hearing.
http://www.clevelandseniors.com/images/quiz/famous/bill-hillary-clinton.jpg

Hippies stink.

[xeus]

Snipe, the link is not working.

But I hardly consider Rush Limbaugh's opinion "evidence".

[PM Thor]

See, I find this premise of voting in a primary that you obviously don't believe in rather poor. For me, I vote FOR someone, not against someone else. Meaning, if I were to vote for McCain, it's because I believe in his stances, not because I think Huckabee is a whackjob and would hurt the repubs down the line.

I guess it's your right to vote for Hillary in order to hurt Obama and the dem party. To me though, to do that is not in the essence of voting in a primary. I guess it is pragmatic though.

[DC Muskie]

My question is, did Rush take his drugs before he says stuff like that? I don't think I can listen or trust a Rush that isn't abusing his drugs.

[Fred Garvin]

Snipe once told me he doesn't vote because he doesn't want to be called for jury duty. Why is he pretending he votes?

[Snipe]

See, I find this premise of voting in a primary that you obviously don't believe in rather poor. For me, I vote FOR someone, not against someone else. Meaning, if I were to vote for McCain, it's because I believe in his stances, not because I think Huckabee is a whackjob and would hurt the repubs down the line.

I guess it's your right to vote for Hillary in order to hurt Obama and the dem party. To me though, to do that is not in the essence of voting in a primary. I guess it is pragmatic though.


Thor, what do you think about Xeus voting Dem because he doesn't like Clinton?

I am already a registered Democrat in the State of Ohio. I have never been a member of any other political party. I like to see myself as the voice of reason in the Democratic Party.

I live in the city and I pull the Dem ballot because some local elected officials are all determined in the Democratic primary. Thus the primary is the election. My state senator and state reps in my district will always be democrats. If I don't pull the dem ballot in the primary I will never have a say in who gets elected.

This next election looks to go to the Democrats. If you want to have a say in who the President is, you should be voting the dem ballot today in Ohio. I do think that Hillary would be a better President in terms of the GWOT, and that is a big issue for me. I support Hillary over Obama because of that.

An ancillary benefit is that if Hillary and Obama go into the convention neck and neck they are likely to destroy each other and rip the party into pieces. I have confidence that Hillary would do this if given the chance. That is part of what makes her so special to so many Americans.

If that happens McCain will benefit. Since McCain is the clear choice of people who view the GWOT as the big deal, my vote for Hillary today is the best choice available. In clear conscience I am voting for what I believe is best for America. I urge all Ohioians to pick up a ballot today and vote for Hillary Clinton.
I am the Snipeman, and I approved this message.

[Fred Garvin]

My question is, did Rush take his drugs before he says stuff like that? I don't think I can listen or trust a Rush that isn't abusing his drugs.


Yeah, better to elect an admitted coke user. The White House will have its best blow since the days of Ham Jordan.

[Lamont Sanford]

I'm writing in William Hussein Cunningham.

[xu95]

I'm a registered Republican (big surprise there for those of you that know me), but I still got two three calls a day recently from both Obama and Hillary (they both called me personally). Sunday night I hung up on a lady as soon as she said "Ob". I am getting quick on the draw.

I think the best scenario for the Republicans is for Obama to get the delegates, but the "Super Delegates" (whatever the hell that is) making Billary the nominee. That will tear the Democratic party apart.

I voted for Fred Thompson this morning, so it is obvious how important I think my vote was.

xu95

[PM Thor]

Thor, what do you think about Xeus voting Dem because he doesn't like Clinton?

I am already a registered Democrat in the State of Ohio. I have never been a member of any other political party. I like to see myself as the voice of reason in the Democratic Party.

I live in the city and I pull the Dem ballot because some local elected officials are all determined in the Democratic primary. Thus the primary is the election. My state senator and state reps in my district will always be democrats. If I don't pull the dem ballot in the primary I will never have a say in who gets elected.

This next election looks to go to the Democrats. If you want to have a say in who the President is, you should be voting the dem ballot today in Ohio. I do think that Hillary would be a better President in terms of the GWOT, and that is a big issue for me. I support Hillary over Obama because of that.

An ancillary benefit is that if Hillary and Obama go into the convention neck and neck they are likely to destroy each other and rip the party into pieces. I have confidence that Hillary would do this if given the chance. That is part of what makes her so special to so many Americans.

If that happens McCain will benefit. Since McCain is the clear choice of people who view the GWOT as the big deal, my vote for Hillary today is the best choice available. In clear conscience I am voting for what I believe is best for America. I urge all Ohioians to pick up a ballot today and vote for Hillary Clinton.
I am the Snipeman, and I approved this message.

I think it is all disingenuous, to be honest. I would put it this way, in your scenario (and Xeus') it's ok to vote for someone who you don't support in order to further yet another candidate. How bad would a candidate need to be in order for you to not vote for them, yet would you still vote for them if it meant that it would hurt the democratic party in the general election? A David Duke? A Chavez?
I guess I say this because I know that Hillary is unelectable in a general election.

For me, I would want 2 candidates who I would actually have to make a choice upon. With Obama and McCain, I agree with both of them on some specific issues equally. With Clinton, man, just don't get me started, I just don't want to even have to consider that. I guess for me it is just that I don't see the dem party as harshly as you do (or the repubs either, for that matter), so I wouldn't consider voting in either primary trying to hurt the other side, over trying to support a candidate that I believe in.

[Snipe]

Thor, I liked Mitt Romney and he dropped out. I liked Ron Paul be he failed to get any support.

I don't like John McCain, and I never have. Me voting for McCain would have been a waste of time. I would have voted for Paul if I had picked up a Republican ticket. Like I said though, I am a registered Dem and I pull the Dem ticket anyway. Why not vote in the Presidential race?

I get one vote, and I need to use that where it will be most effective. After thinking about it I thought that voting for Hillary would be the best use of my vote. Xeus thought that voting for BHO was in his best interests. Everybody gets one vote. That is democracy.

And I do want the soap opera. I am a political junkie. Ever since I started paying attention to politics every political convention has been a well scripted coronation. Everyone knows who the nominee is going to be and everything is settled and choreographed well ahead of time. The democrats even have quotas as to the race and sex of delegates so that everything looks peachy keen on TV.

If the Democrats have a tight race and head into the convention without one person with a majority of delegates it is going to be an epic moment in American politics. The super-delegates can make those smokey back room deals and decide the probable next leader of this country. The arguments of whether the Florida and Michigan delegations will get seated could actually come to blows. People could show up and demand to be seated. Rival delegates could show up and claim legitimacy. It could be complete mayhem, a blood letting of biblical proportions. I am salivating like a pavlovian dog for that type of drama. It would be once in a lifetime type of stuff.

I want to see the drama. It could be incredible. Hillary has to win today, and I am not sure she will do that. If she doesn't the point is moot. If she does she is going to rip the party apart or die trying. There won't be a wall without spattered blood upon it. On with the show.

[American X]

How do you feel afterwards? Do you feel the need to shower?

I felt strange enough voting for my fifth choice Romney.

[DC Muskie]

Snipe, Which Romney do you like? Candidate for Senator Romney, Governor Romney, Presidential Nominee Romney? They are all so very different.

[xuirish]

I'm writing in William Hussein Cunningham.



I'm with you there.

[Snipe]

Snipe, Which Romney do you like? Candidate for Senator Romney, Governor Romney, Presidential Nominee Romney? They are all so very different.

I am not sure where the differences are because I don't think they concerned me. I am not a right to life voter nor am I gay marriage voter or a family values voter. I am a Friedman free market libertarian and I liked Mitt because he was a successful businessman that I thought could bring innovative solutions to problems.

Obama tells some different stories as well. One to the Canadian government, another to the people of Ohio on NAFTA. NAFTA is the subject of all his door hangers and radio commercials in Ohio. That is his whole campaign here. He apparently doesn't mean a bit of it.

Obama has also flip-floped on the drug war. I hope that when he is President he goes back to his original position and starts ending the drug war. I realize that no politician alive in either party could campaign for President talking about legalization or decriminalization. I hope he is a sleep agent for the cause. I am also glad that he isn't really serious about hurting our free trade agreements. It makes me more comfortable with the future, and I do expect him to move to the center after taking the nomination.

Does it surprise me that candidates modify their views on political hot button topics in order to win the nomination of the party base? Nope, that is politics. Is Romney really all these different people? I don't think so. If no one else emerges I hope he runs again in the next election. I think he would be good for America.

We are a capitalist nation. It is beyond me why we never look for a successful capitalist to run things. Lord knows it would be hard to do much worse.

[Snipe]

How do you feel afterwards? Do you feel the need to shower?

I felt strange enough voting for my fifth choice Romney.

I would be interested to hear your top 4.

[PM Thor]

I guess that's where we differ Snipe. I cannot stand the political soap opera. I cannot stand the personal attacks, the backhanded compliments, the total fakeness of the political scene, especially during campaigns.

For me I just want the campaigns to put forward their positions on their stances. That's it. None of the other crap of trying to undercut the opponent. I know I am being naive. I guess I just want better from the politicos. That's why I rented a movie for tonight, so I can avoid all of the political stuff altogether.

[ATL Muskie]

http://clee4654.googlepages.com/HillaryClinton1960s.jpg

[nuts4xu]

I voted for Budweiser to be King 3 times already so far today. I think I will vote again for Budweiser about 5 or 6 more times.

I vote Bud for my king!!

http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j90/AudreyBridges/budgirls.jpg

[PM Thor]

Ok, I didn't rent a movie. I borrowed Guitar Hero from my nieces. Dammit this game is fun.

[nuts4xu]

Wow Thor, you are playing Guitar Hero by yourself AND posting on a messageboard at the same time? I bet you also have a mob of chicks beating down your door wanting to hang with you for a few bars of Freebird.

[PM Thor]

Wow Thor, you are playing Guitar Hero by yourself AND posting on a messageboard at the same time? I bet you also have a mob of chicks beating down your door wanting to hang with you for a few bars of Freebird.

Yeah, and I am only in my tightey whiteys too.

No I'm not doing both. My hand hurts from guitar hero, so I quit. Duh.

[xeus]

Yeah, and I am only in my tightey whiteys too.

No I'm not doing both. My hand hurts from guitar hero, so I quit. Duh.



Classic ...

[PM Thor]

Yikes. This is kind of wild, and I don't think enough hard core repubs crossed the aisle to make these numbers skew this much. Pulled off of the Enquirers site tonight.

President - Dem Primary
Ohio - 7995 of 11238 Precincts Reporting - 71%
Name Party Votes Vote %
Clinton , Hillary Dem 883,956 56%
Obama , Barack Dem 656,678 42%
Edwards , John Dem 29,137 2%



President - Delegate-at-Large - GOP Primary
Ohio - 7745 of 11238 Precincts Reporting - 69%
Name Party Votes Vote %
McCain , John GOP 485,180 59%
Huckabee , Mike GOP 257,960 31%
Paul , Ron GOP 37,726 5%
Romney , Mitt GOP 26,717 3%
Thompson , Fred GOP 12,797 2%

Now I know that the republican nomination was completely locked up, but could you imagine if the dems actually got behind one candidate? Look at those numbers in Ohio.

There were 1.5 million people voting in the dem primary compared to 750,000 repubs. There doesn't seem to be much excitement in the republican camp.

[Snipe]

Now I know that the republican nomination was completely locked up, but could you imagine if the dems actually got behind one candidate? Look at those numbers in Ohio.

There were 1.5 million people voting in the dem primary compared to 750,000 repubs. There doesn't seem to be much excitement in the republican camp.


It looks like the Dems didn't get behind just one candidate. It also looks like Republicans could give a crap about McCain. I bet more Republicans crossed over than voted for him. McCain does better with crossover voters than he does within his own party. I still can't figure out how he won the nomiation. I don't care for him. McCain is going for the middle vote, and he is good at getting it. I don't see what people like in him.

As far as Hillary goes, she just blew this campaign wide open. Obama has no chance in my opinion of locking it up before the convention. If you do the math he won't have the delegates to command the nomination. It is an open field.

This is going to get bloody. She is going to tear the party apart for the nomination. It certainly will be interesting.

YES WE CAN!

[PM Thor]

This is bizarre. McCain doesn't have the core republicans behind him, and the democrats are eating their young. I guess whoever bleeds the least is going to be our next president. Weird.

[coasterville95]

I'm not sure its that. I think the Republicans realized that McCain was a lock for the nomination before the polls even opened. Therefore, why go through the ceremonial act of voting when its not going to matter. (Yes, I realize there were races for other offices that weren't locks)

So, clearly, the Republicans took the stance "Okay, we know who we are voting for, now who would we we rather run against?" Which lead to LOTS of crossover voting, just look at all the articles about how polling places couldn't keep democratic ballots in stock, even those polling places that on the books are staunchly republican. (Ya know, if we were still using the keypunch card based voting machines, or really any kind voting machine that did not rely on a printed ballot, the supply/demand thing would not have been an issue)

What I have to wonder, and I'd hope many others are wondering, is how would last night have turned out if crossover voting were not allowed. I mean if you had to go to some official administration, like a courthouse, and get a signed, sworn, notarized document to change party affiliation in order to vote the other party's ballot. Would things have turned out differently.

[The Artist]

Nothing like manipulating democracy.

Good job, repubs.

[Cheesehead]

Oh, it would have been a lot different. Repubs were voting for Hilliary because they feel they can win against her and not against Obama. While it's smart manipulation of the system, it's really not right. This is one big mess.

[Raoul Duke]

It looks like the Dems didn't get behind just one candidate. It also looks like Republicans could give a crap about McCain. I bet more Republicans crossed over than voted for him. McCain does better with crossover voters than he does within his own party. I still can't figure out how he won the nomiation. I don't care for him. McCain is going for the middle vote, and he is good at getting it. I don't see what people like in him.

As far as Hillary goes, she just blew this campaign wide open. Obama has no chance in my opinion of locking it up before the convention. If you do the math he won't have the delegates to command the nomination. It is an open field.

This is going to get bloody. She is going to tear the party apart for the nomination. It certainly will be interesting.

YES WE CAN!

I've actually read that a 'bloody' and protracted Dem battle would work in that party's favor, especially if the Repub nomination is locked up early. Think about it - the protracted battle garners the media attention and keeps the candidates fresh in voters' minds. No one's going to be interested in hearing about McCain for the next few months.

[DC Muskie]

I am not sure where the differences are because I don't think they concerned me. I am not a right to life voter nor am I gay marriage voter or a family values voter. I am a Friedman free market libertarian and I liked Mitt because he was a successful businessman that I thought could bring innovative solutions to problems.

Obama tells some different stories as well. One to the Canadian government, another to the people of Ohio on NAFTA. NAFTA is the subject of all his door hangers and radio commercials in Ohio. That is his whole campaign here. He apparently doesn't mean a bit of it.

Obama has also flip-floped on the drug war. I hope that when he is President he goes back to his original position and starts ending the drug war. I realize that no politician alive in either party could campaign for President talking about legalization or decriminalization. I hope he is a sleep agent for the cause. I am also glad that he isn't really serious about hurting our free trade agreements. It makes me more comfortable with the future, and I do expect him to move to the center after taking the nomination.

Does it surprise me that candidates modify their views on political hot button topics in order to win the nomination of the party base? Nope, that is politics. Is Romney really all these different people? I don't think so. If no one else emerges I hope he runs again in the next election. I think he would be good for America.

We are a capitalist nation. It is beyond me why we never look for a successful capitalist to run things. Lord knows it would be hard to do much worse.

Wow, things certainly have changed in four years.

[kyxu]

Yeah, better to elect an admitted coke user. The White House will have its best blow since the days of Ham Jordan.

Bush used coke. He was young when he did it. So was Obama. Big deal. I once did meth and oxycotin at the same time and I'd be a great president.

[xeus]

Nothing like manipulating democracy.

Good job, repubs.

Talk to the Democratic party if you want them to change their rules. Of course, it's much more convenient to blame the Republicans isn't it?

[Snipe]

Wow, things certainly have changed in four years.

John Kerry was a traitor and an admitted war criminal. That never changes.

[Snipe]

This thread was started by a person who is not a Democrat, but was pulling the dem ballot to vote for Obama because he didn't like Clinton. I would venture that Obama got more votes from non-democrats in Ohio, and that he has also done so nationwide.




So, clearly, the Republicans took the stance "Okay, we know who we are voting for, now who would we we rather run against?" .....

What I have to wonder, and I'd hope many others are wondering, is how would last night have turned out if crossover voting were not allowed. I mean if you had to go to some official administration, like a courthouse, and get a signed, sworn, notarized document to change party affiliation in order to vote the other party's ballot. Would things have turned out differently.

I think that if people had to register at a courthouse to be in the Democratic party that Hillary Clinton would be in the lead in this race nationwide by a large margin. Obama appeals to independents and Republicans. He has openly courted their votes and has benefited by bringing new people into the process. If this was just for the longtime faithtul that had registered for the party it would have been a Clinton slaughterhouse nationwide.


Nothing like manipulating democracy.

Good job, repubs.

Delusional. Clinton won by a large margin. As a registered Democrat, my vote for Hillary was firmly in the mainstream of the Ohio Democratic Party.


Oh, it would have been a lot different. Repubs were voting for Hilliary because they feel they can win against her and not against Obama. While it's smart manipulation of the system, it's really not right. This is one big mess.

Again, if you subtracted votes from Republicans and Independents in Ohio and nationwide I think it would benefit Hillary, not Obama. Polls show that an overwhelming majority of my Democratic brethen want the race to continue.

[Snipe]

I've actually read that a 'bloody' and protracted Dem battle would work in that party's favor, especially if the Repub nomination is locked up early. Think about it - the protracted battle garners the media attention and keeps the candidates fresh in voters' minds. No one's going to be interested in hearing about McCain for the next few months.

I don't think that a bloody battle will work in the party's favor, and I don't think it will really hurt the party. I don't think it will matter. Whoever comes out of Denver with the nomination will be the next leader of the free world. John McCain has a better chance of dying a natural death before the next election than he does winning the presidency.

[The Artist]

Talk to the Democratic party if you want them to change their rules. Of course, it's much more convenient to blame the Republicans isn't it?

I don't have a problem with the system. I have a problem with the people who decide it is a logical and correct thing to do. You have to keep the system in place for independents, etc.

And Snipe, we've never met, and I'm pretty sure if we did we'd be friends, but when it comes to this political stuff you are so full of sh!t it's ridiculous.


Edit: I should correct my statement because it implies that I'm blaming all republicans, which I am not, just the ones who switched over in order to benefit their party.

[DC Muskie]

John Kerry was a traitor and an admitted war criminal. That never changes.

There you go.. I was worried about you for a minute there.

[xeus]

I don't have a problem with the system. I have a problem with the people who decide it is a logical and correct thing to do. You have to keep the system in place for independents, etc.

And Snipe, we've never met, and I'm pretty sure if we did we'd be friends, but when it comes to this political stuff you are so full of sh!t it's ridiculous.


Edit: I should correct my statement because it implies that I'm blaming all republicans, which I am not, just the ones who switched over in order to benefit their party.

I'm confused as to why this offends you, or, more specifically, why you think it's "manipulating democracy". I never considered any "benefit" to the Republican party, I would simply prefer to see Obama be the Democratic party candidate.

[Snipe]

I don't have a problem with the system. I have a problem with the people who decide it is a logical and correct thing to do. You have to keep the system in place for independents, etc.

And Snipe, we've never met, and I'm pretty sure if we did we'd be friends, but when it comes to this political stuff you are so full of sh!t it's ridiculous.


Edit: I should correct my statement because it implies that I'm blaming all republicans, which I am not, just the ones who switched over in order to benefit their party.

I am a Great American. I never mean anything personal even though it may seem that way to you and spinless liberals like DC Muskie. I just do this for the sake of amusement. I am somewhat of a political junkie that likes to debate for fun.

That said, you are delusional.

I would venture that more Republicans have voted for BHO than Hillary. I think that is safe to say, and I don't think it is close.

Barack H. Obama - Republican supporters (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p3GjmQpYxfo)

Watch the video. BHO has openly campaigned for Republicans to switch parties and vote for him. He has been actively doing this for his entire campaign. He wanted Xeus to vote for him, and he asked him and people like him to vote for him. I am sure he appreciates the support in what is a tight Democratic battle. Without independents and Republicans I think life would be tough for Obama. When he wins the nomination (I think he eventually will), he will owe it largely to independents and Republicans.

I find it laughable that you blame Republican manipulation in what was a double digit blow out victory in Ohio. If Republicans have "manipulated" this race in any way it is in favor of Barack H. Obama.

[Smails]

I think we're in for a potential bombshell at the convention. Even after last night's victories Hillary is still a near mathematic impossibility to get the nod based on the 'pledged delegates'. She would need sweeping victories in the remaining states to stand a real chance....according to the numbers. Watch what happens if she's within striking distance as the convention looms. The super delegates could very easily hold the key to the nod. Watch what happens when the Clinton machine starts courting super delegates behind closed doors. It is not completely far fetched that she pulls out an improbable convention nomination. As much as I disagree with it's politics, the Clinton machine is truly a force when it's full steam ahead.

[DC Muskie]

I never mean anything personal even though it may seem that way to you and spinless liberals like DC Muskie.

Says the guy who is a registered Democrat.

[Snipe]

I think we're in for a potential bombshell at the convention. Even after last night's victories Hillary is still a near mathematic impossibility to get the nod based on the 'pledged delegates'. She would need sweeping victories in the remaining states to stand a real chance....according to the numbers. Watch what happens if she's within striking distance as the convention looms. The super delegates could very easily hold the key to the nod. Watch what happens when the Clinton machine starts courting super delegates behind closed doors. It is not completely far fetched that she pulls out an improbable convention nomination. As much as I disagree with it's politics, the Clinton machine is truly a force when it's full steam ahead.

It could rip apart the entire party. At this point it is a lock that neither candidate will lock up enough delegates to secure the nomination before the convention. If Barack Obama is really about bringing people together and he cares for the party he should do the right thing and step down. If he doesn't do that it only shows what a two faced liar he is.

[Snipe]

Says the guy who is a registered Democrat.

Used to be a lot of conservative democrats, and Cincinnati had it's fair share. Old man Luken wasn't a liberal.

I am the new voice of reason in the Democratic party. I would like to welcome Xeus to the big tent. I am proud to be a Democrat, and proud to keep my girl Hillary fighting the good fight.

She went negative and it worked. Watch out world because you ain't seen nothing yet. Blood is in the water and the sharks are circling Barack H. Obama. This could go down as one of the bloodiest and most legendary political fights of all of our lifetimes.

Both sides and going to spend tens of millions of dollars fighting each other in the next 7 weeks to PA, and it won't end there. Hillary will win there and she is going to keep on fighting all the way to the convention.

They are going to fight over Florida, fight over Michigan, fight over Super Delegates.

And if Clinton can find a way to have the party bosses install her to power their could be a riot at the Convention. If I know my girl she won't pull any punches in her quest for power.

Bring on the bloodshed!

[xu95]

Oh, it would have been a lot different. Repubs were voting for Hilliary because they feel they can win against her and not against Obama. While it's smart manipulation of the system, it's really not right. This is one big mess.

Democrats do it every time in Michigan. But just because the Republicans are doing it it is a big deal.

xu95

[Cheesehead]

Yeeaaaahhhhhh! Sorry, I had flash back to Dean.

[DC Muskie]

If Barack Obama is really about bringing people together and he cares for the party he should do the right thing and step down. If he doesn't do that it only shows what a two faced liar he is.

Or Hilary, being the fighter she is, could just beat the living daylights out of everyone and win the nomination through sheer violence. In fact if she doesn't flex her muscles, it will just show how incapable of being a commander in chief she really is.

[Kahns Krazy]

And Snipe, we've never met, and I'm pretty sure if we did we'd be friends, but when it comes to this political stuff you are so full of sh!t it's ridiculous.



The words "when it comes to this political stuff" are not necessary.

[Snipe]

I resemble that remark.

[Snipe]

CNN Exit Polls for Texas (http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2008/primaries/results/epolls/#TXDEM) and Ohio (http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2008/primaries/results/epolls/#OHDEM)

In Ohio...
Republicans made up 9% of the dem ballot. 49% Clinton and 49% Obama.
Independents made up 22% of the ballot. They went to Obama by a 50% to 48% margin.

In Ohio Republicans and Independents combined gave Bama a slight edge.

In Texas...

Republicans made up 9% of the dem ballot. They went to Obama by a 53% to 46% margin.
Independents made up 25% of the dem ballot. They went to Obama 49% to 48%.

In Texas Republicans and Independents combined gave Obama a slight edge.

Take these two states combined and you have a pretty significat part of the electorate favoring Obama slightly on election day. Where Obama got hammered was by the Democrats.

Obama did take somewhat a of hit in Ohio and Texas with Repubs and Indies, but only because nationwide he is used to doing much better with them.

Take this article (http://www.foxnews.com/wires/2008Feb22/0,4670,OpenPrimaries,00.html), written on 2/20.


In the 22 contested Democratic primaries so far, independents made up 22 percent of the vote and they supported Obama by an overwhelming margin of 64 percent to 33 percent. Crossover Republicans, a far smaller percentage in the Democratic primaries, backed him 55-33.

If those numbers are correct (always a big if with exit polls and polling in general), it is an incredible asset to the Obama campaign. Independents like Obama and the gap is 31% points. Republicans like Obama and the gap is 22% points. Those are incredible numbers, especially when you consider that these two groups make up close to a third of the vote.

Lets say these two groups make up 30% of the ballot, and represent that by 30 votes out of 100. Of those 30 votes Obama wins 18 and Clinton wins 10, with 2 going to other. That means out of the other 70 votes (the votes from Democrats), Clinton needs to win by 8 points just to be even. She needs to win over 55% of Democratic party voters just to be even. He can win getting 45% of the Democratic vote in this scenario. 55% to 45% would be a convincing victory in today's politics, but Obamas Independent and Republican friends can turn that defeat into a victory, and nobody ever complains.

According to Real Clear Politics (http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/president/democratic_vote_count.html), Obama leads the popular vote by 586,678 votes out of a total of near 25 million votes for both candidates. His lead constitutes 2.3% of the total vote.

If you include Florida (Michigan is bogus), Obama leads the popular vote by 291,906. His lead then would constitute 1.1% of the popular vote. It is quite easy to make the case that Republicans and Independents have swayed the Democratic primaries and altered what candidate will be selected. I can make a case that Republicans alone are the current difference between the two candidates.

Now lets take a look back at some comments...




So, clearly, the Republicans took the stance "Okay, we know who we are voting for, now who would we we rather run against?" Which lead to LOTS of crossover voting, just look at all the articles about how polling places couldn't keep democratic ballots in stock, even those polling places that on the books are staunchly republican.

What I have to wonder, and I'd hope many others are wondering, is how would last night have turned out if crossover voting were not allowed. I mean if you had to go to some official administration, like a courthouse, and get a signed, sworn, notarized document to change party affiliation in order to vote the other party's ballot. Would things have turned out differently.

I said it on an earlier thread, but I think the evidence makes it clear that if these primaries were "Democrats only" that it would have been a Clinton slaughterhouse. I think it would be, and I think the numbers back that up.


Nothing like manipulating democracy.

Good job, repubs.

Republicans & Independents have been consistently "manipulating" the results of the Democratic primaries in favor of Barack H. Obama. Check it out sometime.


Oh, it would have been a lot different. Repubs were voting for Hilliary because they feel they can win against her and not against Obama. While it's smart manipulation of the system, it's really not right. This is one big mess.

This is one big mess, but I think you got the jist of the deal completely wrong. Republicans have been voting for Obama, and that is what the numbers and exit polls are saying. Democrats like Hillary Clinton better, but Obama is stealing the nomination on the backs of Republicans and Independents. Had Repubs and Indies not been able to vote in Ohio, Clinton would still have crushed Obama by a wide margin. Republicans and Indies went in his favor. She would have won a wider margin if the polls just counted Democrats.





And Snipe, we've never met, and I'm pretty sure if we did we'd be friends, but when it comes to this political stuff you are so full of sh!t it's ridiculous.



Did you vote for Obama? Is he your favorite candidate? You call me ridiculous. You yourself blamed republicans...


Nothing like manipulating democracy.

Good job, repubs.

Look at the exit polls. Nothing was manipulated by Republicans. You aren't on the verge of paranoia, because that quote took you over the edge. Obama got his ass kicked by Democrats and because of Democrats. Take every Republican out of the polling station and Obama gets his ass kicked at an even greater margin. Republicans made the vote look closer than it actually was.

Put that in your pipe and smoke it.

I just won this debate. I declare myself the winner. To quote the glorious: "Winning a debate on the internet is like playing in the special olymipics. Even if you win, you are still retarded."

And man am I retarded. I have to confess I love this stuff.

[Kahns Krazy]

I know people who have traditionally voted republican who intend to vote for Obama if he wins the nomination, but not for Hillary if she wins.

Should they have voted in the primary? If so, for who, and why?

[Fred Garvin]

When did "manipulators" get involved in politics?

[Snipe]

I know people who have traditionally voted republican who intend to vote for Obama if he wins the nomination, but not for Hillary if she wins.

Should they have voted in the primary? If so, for who, and why?

I only know the details that you have given me. Sounds to me like they should have voted for Obama in the primary. I don't know why they didn't because they supported him. That is what Republicans have been doing en mass all along. The numbers show that plenty of Republicans have voted for Obama, more than any other democratic candidate. Enough to sway the primaries.




If so, for who, and why?

I would think that they should vote for their choice. If BHO is the man to them they should vote for him. "Why?", because they support him.

I don't see this as a difficult choice. If they think Obama will get their vote if he is on the list he should get their vote regardless. Many people feel that way. That is exactly how Republicans and Independents have taken the Democratic nomination. I don't seek to give abuse to the political process, I just want to point out that it has been influenced by a significant number of Republicans and Indies.

Democrats should not complain because that is the way the system is set. Democrats should also not complain about super delegates because that is also the way the system is set. It is a built in deterent for and catch all to prevent non-democrats from taking control of the process as they alreay have. It is a fail-safe and a catchall, and it was intended to be that way. If those superdelegates go the way of registered Dems the result will likely be Hillary Clinton. She is the choice of Democrats. Obama is the choice of independents and Republicans.

Hillary won Texas but she may lose delegates even when winning the popular vote. Obama doesn't complain about that. The Democrats have a screwed up way of doing things. At least they have a provision in place with the super delegates that can restore sanity. True Democrats want Hillary Clinton, and I think the super delegates should reflect that.