UD Stupidity

[xudash]

I still visit UDPride from time to time to see what is troubling them, especially as we get closer to cranking life up in the Big East. This is for our entertainment only. I don't need a lecture on wasting space here with UD posts. IF you don't want to read it, then please just move on. Otherwise, the following comes from a thread about getting out from under our shadow. They have another thread going about whether or not the "rivalry" will be put back together.

They can't get us off their minds. Apparently, when they think about us, the go into denial: some poor dumb, uninformed idiot named College B-Ball Fan goes full boat delusional mode:

Buster, not to worry...the sun has come up this morning, UD is still heads and shoulders above Xavier in just about every other facet of "what's REALLY important" about a University experience and Xavier is looking for ways to balance there budget and cut 1.2 million again this calender year in costs?

Have you been on there campus---reminds those that are familiar with UD (now and then) of the University of Dayton campus in 1975! When the newest and best building on your college campus is your basketball arena (and it is at Xavier), something seems a little bit out of whack in the big picture!

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to have there NCAA resume'---but nothing else about X (including there lack of Phd programs, paltry endowment, 1970 style dorms, etc. etc. ) gets folks real excited. Thank goodness they "have" played very good basketball------"have", time will tell!

Guess he hasn't been on Xavier's campus since 2000.

Probably has no clue that University Station is underway.

And otherwise really doesn't understand where Xavier is headed with respect to its endowment.

It's hell, getting left behind - being left behind in Dayton, Ohio.

[LA Muskie]

Thanks Dash. That's pretty funny. I'll grant him that we do lack a critical mass of PhD programs and that the endowment is absurdly low (although it now is a priority, having finally built a campus of which to be proud). But even as far back as 1991 -- and even with our campus' shortcomings -- XU was head and shoulders better than Dayton. And I'm pretty sure the vast majority of our graduates know the difference between "there" and "their."

[boozehound]

They forgot to mention perhaps one of the most important differentiators: We aren't in Dayton.

In all seriousness, that does help our MBA program a lot. We have a great part time MBA that is filled with a lot of working professionals from several of the large and prestigious companies in Cincinnati.

[Muskie1000]

And not that Xavier shouldn't have or doesn't need PhD programs, but I would rather us keep building our successful MBA program then put out a half rate PhD program.

[paulxu]

Dash, the best is the A10 forum.
The mods huddled after we went to the BE, and decided to adopt two sets of poster rules; one for X, one for everyone else.
Which of course sucked all the fun out of that board in a heartbeat.
So you had the interesting case of UD posters looking for another straw man, and taking shots at various teams.
That didn't work out too well, now they are taking shots at each other (which is sort of humorous in it's own strange way.)
They miss Snipe and his glove over there big time. Some good discussion left, but zero fun.

[xubrew]

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to have there NCAA resume'---but nothing else about X (including there lack of Phd programs, paltry endowment, 1970 style dorms, etc. etc. ) gets folks real excited. Thank goodness they "have" played very good basketball------"have", time will tell!

This is just all kinds of funny. It's kind of slamming the law school at UC because they don't graduate as many doctors as the medical school at Ohio State does.

Xavier is not a research university, so it doesn't have a plethora of PhD programs. I haven't been on campus in years, but I'm of the understanding that it is highly focused on the undergraduates.

At most (pretty much all) universities that have law schools, medical schools and PhD programs, the only connection those things have to the undergrads is the pipes under the street. Undergrads have nothing to do with law schools, medical schools or PhD programs, so it's stupid to even reference those things when talking about the overall experience and the quality of education that the traditional students get. Unless someone has a law degree or PhD from said institution, then why even bring it up??

Davidson doesn't have PhDs either, nor do they have a medical school or law school that I know of, or for that matter they don't offer advanced degrees of any kind. But, a VERY high percentage of their graduates go on to earn advanced degrees. It's a much higher percentage than the majority of schools that actually offer advanced degrees. But I guess Davidson is a step below places like UD because UD has a tier four law school and Davidson doesn't.

[GoMuskies]

UD has the sixth best law school in Ohio (Toledo may disagree with that assessment). They have a lot to be proud of.

[xubrew]

UD has the sixth best law school in Ohio (Toledo may disagree with that assessment). They have a lot to be proud of.

It prompts the question.....

If a person's undergrad degree from UD did nothing other than get them admitted to the law school at UD, then how much are they really getting out of their undergraduate degree??

[Milhouse]

A joke is a joke is a joke. Regardless looking at that thread made me poke around the other ones a bit and I found this GEM in the recruiting thread:


If I wanted to play on an NCAA tournament team, UD would be my choice. We're going to be there, if not this year then in 14-15 and probably beyond.

I don't know what recruit they were talking about specifically but in a nutshell this just shows how delusional that fanbase is.

What is it like 1 tournament win in like what 20? 25 years? One appearance in the last 10? Yep I'd go to UD if I wanted to play in NCAA tournament and I'd go to Alaska if I wanted to be near the beach.

[Cheesehead]

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to have there NCAA resume'---but nothing else about X (including there lack of Phd programs, paltry endowment, 1970 style dorms, etc. etc. ) gets folks real excited. Thank goodness they "have" played very good basketball------"have", time will tell!


Nice incorrect use of the word "there". It's "their", moron.

[XUFan09]

Brew's right. I love when I see UD fans boasting how they are a ranked institution and Xavier isn't on the list. Of course we're not on that list. We don't even qualify. But, you can consistently find us in the regional top 5 of another list.

PhD programs do have some connection with undergraduate. The graduate students are sometimes teaching the undergraduate students. They are sometimes really good teachers, but other times, not so much (especially the ones who don't intend to teach for their careers but are required to now).

Sent from my DROID RAZR HD using Tapatalk 2

[paulxu]

They officially jumped the shark on the other forum.
Dayton posters going at each other, baiting each other...and the mods warning them to behave, or be disciplined.
Very funny.

[Kahns Krazy]

Bragging about your PhD program without knowing the difference between 'there' and 'their' is pretty hollow. Doing it on a sports message board is 100% empty.

Tools. At least a few of them can see the real picture.

[xubrew]

PhD programs do have some connection with undergraduate. The graduate students are sometimes teaching the undergraduate students. They are sometimes really good teachers, but other times, not so much (especially the ones who don't intend to teach for their careers but are required to now).


So true. Very good point.

[spazzrico]

So true. Very good point.

Yeah, I mostly agree. The only advantage a PhD program might (and here I stress the might) is if a professor has a cool funded research agenda and brings in students to help conduct research (sorta like inquiry based teaching). That could allow students some true hands on work. But that's about the only scenario. I know I'd much rather have my daughter at a teaching school where pretty much all the professors are there to teach first and foremost.

[LA Muskie]

Yeah, I mostly agree. The only advantage a PhD program might (and here I stress the might) is if a professor has a cool funded research agenda and brings in students to help conduct research (sorta like inquiry based teaching). That could allow students some true hands on work. But that's about the only scenario. I know I'd much rather have my daughter at a teaching school where pretty much all the professors are there to teach first and foremost.
I think a PhD program generally adds a cache to the academic profile of a university. True there are some schools that excel without robust graduate degree programs (Princeton and Davidson coming to mind, in particular). But generally speaking, a well-regarded graduate degree program is a prerequisite for admission into the upper echelon of academic institutions.

As for Xavier, we are not a research institution so the lack of a significant graduate degree program is understandable. But I'd still like to see a greater emphasis on graduate degrees in the arts and social sciences. In particular, I'd really like to see a law school on campus some day. There is a dearth of upper-tier law schools in Ohio, and good law schools are actually pretty easy to build quickly with the right talent and strategic scholarship offers (see, e.g., UC Irvine).

[XUFan09]

Ethically, I couldn't support a law school being founded at Xavier anytime soon, with half of law school graduates nationwide right now unable to attain a job that requires a JD. The market needs to "flip" first, which might be soon, but it could be an issue that stews for a long time as law schools make big profits off students and law firms don't complain about the plethora of job candidates.

[LA Muskie]

Ethically, I couldn't support a law school being founded at Xavier anytime soon, with half of law school graduates nationwide right now unable to attain a job that requires a JD. The market needs to "flip" first, which might be soon, but it could be an issue that stews for a long time as law schools make big profits off students and law firms don't complain about the plethora of job candidates.
I see your point. I haven't researched it, but (as an employer myself) my experience is that the jobless largely come from the bottom tiers. I wouldn't support a law school at Xavier unless it was founded and funded to be a 1st or 2nd (at worst) tier law school. By and large, those graduates get jobs. And good ones.

[XUFan09]

I see your point. I haven't researched it, but (as an employer myself) my experience is that the jobless largely come from the bottom tiers. I wouldn't support a law school at Xavier unless it was founded and funded to be a 1st or 2nd (at worst) tier law school. By and large, those graduates get jobs. And good ones.

The recent phenomenon (post-2008) is that even a lot of Tier 1 and Tier 2 members have not had great success in employment rate. Tier 1 has even become differentiated, with a "Top 14" group that has stood out head-and-shoulders above the rest as the only selection of schools with reliable employment rates, except for some state schools who are the main source of lawyers for that state. This Top 14 was there before, but in the past it was more a difference of salary and firm prestige than actual employment rates. The connected issue is cost of attendance, as the average law school costs well over $40,000 per year, not even accounting for living expenses. That in itself is worse in real dollars that ten, twenty years ago, but not insurmountable. The real problem is that more and more jobs end up paying a salary that's not enough when one accounts for something like $200,000 in debt between college and law school. And that's just salaried employees, who have it nice. More and more companies are turning to contract lawyers who do part-time work for a third of the cost, much like adjunct professors in the academic world.

I have been researching law school as an option for a few years, and now I live relatively close to two Top 14 schools in Georgetown and Virginia, so it's a little more appealing (though, for being ranked 14th, Gtown's 73% employment rate isn't that great, especially when #20 George Washington has notably less prestige yet achieves an 80% rate). Still, it's a pretty tough market for how much money you invest. I think it will begin to turn soon, but I'm not entirely confident, so the inclusion of a new law school is troubling to me.

P.S. I'm using U.S. News & World Report rankings, not because I think they're the gospel, but because they have begun to be treated like the gospel. They are probably as effective as mid-season college basketball rankings - not terrible but not entirely fair and accurate either.

[GoMuskies]

Ohio has 7 law schools. Cincinnati has 2 law schools. Why would we need another?!?

[XUFan09]

Ohio has 7 law schools. Cincinnati has 2 law schools. Why would we need another?!?

I guess the issue is that Ohio doesn't need another law school, but it could definitely use another good law school, just as the legal world doesn't need more lawyers, but it could definitely use more good lawyers.

[GoMuskies]

With Ohio State, Case Western and UC, the state of Ohio is all set.

[XUFan09]

With Ohio State, Case Western and UC, the state of Ohio is all set.

Ohio State is the only one that comes in the top 50 (#36), so for a state with as big of a population as Ohio, there's room for a second law school on that level or better.

[GoMuskies]

And the chances of a Xavier law school ever being in the top 50 approach zero.

[XUFan09]

And the chances of a Xavier law school ever being in the top 50 approach zero.

I was thinking the same thing, based on the quality of recently opened law schools elsewhere, but LA seems confident that when done right, a new school can quickly establish itself among that group. I don't know enough about the creation of law schools to say one way or another; I just know about the grim state of the profession right now for recent graduates.

[GoMuskies]

He must know something no one else does. He cited UC-Irvine, and they are tied with Dayton in the alphabetical fourth tier. I scrolled through the top 50, and I don't think any of them are new schools (or even newish).

The profession is tough, but it was too good to be true for a while ('04-'07ish). That was just unsustainable. The industry will probably find its equilibrium as people get scared away from going to law school, and smaller graduating classes are sent out into the world seeking those precious jobs. Most things in life follow the old Warren Buffett adage: "Be scared when everyone else is greedy. Be greedy when everyone else is scared." I think now is actually a decent time to be entering law school IF you're going to get good grades at a first tier (not necessarily T14) school and make law review or moot court.

[LA Muskie]

The recent phenomenon (post-2008) is that even a lot of Tier 1 and Tier 2 members have not had great success in employment rate. Tier 1 has even become differentiated, with a "Top 14" group that has stood out head-and-shoulders above the rest as the only selection of schools with reliable employment rates, except for some state schools who are the main source of lawyers for that state. This Top 14 was there before, but in the past it was more a difference of salary and firm prestige than actual employment rates. The connected issue is cost of attendance, as the average law school costs well over $40,000 per year, not even accounting for living expenses. That in itself is worse in real dollars that ten, twenty years ago, but not insurmountable. The real problem is that more and more jobs end up paying a salary that's not enough when one accounts for something like $200,000 in debt between college and law school. And that's just salaried employees, who have it nice. More and more companies are turning to contract lawyers who do part-time work for a third of the cost, much like adjunct professors in the academic world.

I have been researching law school as an option for a few years, and now I live relatively close to two Top 14 schools in Georgetown and Virginia, so it's a little more appealing (though, for being ranked 14th, Gtown's 73% employment rate isn't that great, especially when #20 George Washington has notably less prestige yet achieves an 80% rate). Still, it's a pretty tough market for how much money you invest. I think it will begin to turn soon, but I'm not entirely confident, so the inclusion of a new law school is troubling to me.

P.S. I'm using U.S. News & World Report rankings, not because I think they're the gospel, but because they have begun to be treated like the gospel. They are probably as effective as mid-season college basketball rankings - not terrible but not entirely fair and accurate either.
'09, I'm a GTown law grad (class of '99). PM me if you'd like any specific input. As for its employment numbers, they have always skewed lower than its peers. That is largely due to the number of grads who have historically been interested in either non-legal government jobs and/or public interest pursuits. In my experience -- which includes being on the hiring committee at a top tier international law firm -- GTown "travels" much better than its ranking. I would say that it is viewed as good as, if not better than, any other Top 14 schools outside the Top 5 (Yale, Harvard, Stanford, Chicago, NYU and Columbia). I don't know why that is, but it is true (or was until very recently).

[LA Muskie]

He must know something no one else does. He cited UC-Irvine, and they are tied with Dayton in the alphabetical fourth tier. I scrolled through the top 50, and I don't think any of them are new schools (or even newish).

The profession is tough, but it was too good to be true for a while ('04-'07ish). That was just unsustainable. The industry will probably find its equilibrium as people get scared away from going to law school, and smaller graduating classes are sent out into the world seeking those precious jobs. Most things in life follow the old Warren Buffett adage: "Be scared when everyone else is greedy. Be greedy when everyone else is scared." I think now is actually a decent time to be entering law school IF you're going to get good grades at a first tier (not necessarily T14) school and make law review or moot court.

UC Irvine has only graduated 2 classes. The rankings are skewed toward established schools. But give it a few years and it will crack the Top 50 -- and likely will be in the Top 25 by the end of the decade. It's admissions profiles are already in the Top 25 range, they hired a rockstar (in the legal world) dean in Edwin Chemerinski (a high-profile constitutional law scholar), they have lured top students with scholarships, they have state of the art facilities, and they have invested in the top professors in their fields.

That said, you're right -- I don't see XU having a Top 50 program, at least not anytime soon. But I do think the State of Ohio could use another quality law school, and I do think XU could supply that.

[GoMuskies]

We'll see. And anyway Xavier could replicate this how?

With Ohio already having three quality law schools (plus four bad ones and Chase right across the bridge), I guess I just don't see the need for a fourth. Particularly where Xavier does not have the resources of a state university to go on a speculative building and hiring spree like a UC-Irvine (who I would wager will no time soon crack the top 50 given that they will have stopped providing the lucrative scholarships that were necessary to bring in the top student talent well before they're ever able to get their prestige and repuation to a level necessary to crack the top 50). And the $47k price tag at UC-Irvine (that they're actually charging now) wouldn't really fly in Cincinnati.

[XUFan09]

Most things in life follow the old Warren Buffett adage: "Be scared when everyone else is greedy. Be greedy when everyone else is scared." I think now is actually a decent time to be entering law school IF you're going to get good grades at a first tier (not necessarily T14) school and make law review or moot court.

Yeah, I've been thinking along those lines. I needed to find out where my wife matched to residency first though, and I wasn't in a big rush with projections for market turnover looking to be a little longer than the three-year education stint, as past unlucky graduates who have kept trying have to be accounted for too, even after the process "rights itself."


'09, I'm a GTown law grad (class of '99). PM me if you'd like any specific input. As for its employment numbers, they have always skewed lower than its peers. That is largely due to the number of grads who have historically been interested in either non-legal government jobs and/or public interest pursuits. In my experience -- which includes being on the hiring committee at a top tier international law firm -- GTown "travels" much better than its ranking. I would say that it is viewed as good as, if not better than, any other Top 14 schools outside the Top 5 (Yale, Harvard, Stanford, Chicago, NYU and Columbia). I don't know why that is, but it is true (or was until very recently).

Thanks! I won't be applying this year, as I haven't taken the LSAT yet and if I apply, I want to take full advantage of rolling admissions with test scores already available. Of course, I really enjoy teaching, and if I manage to secure a job there, I might never look back. That's good to know about Gtown, as I really like the institution as a whole and couldn't understand why they *seemed* to struggle so much in employment numbers.

[UnCaged]

Oh no he didn't...attack Xavier's dorms? That is one of the chief reasons I went to X over Dayton (and other schools) back in 1997...I believe some of their dorms are reconfigured elementary schools, with janitor's closets for rooms shared by two melon humpers at a time. Xavier's campus has undergone an amazing renovation since I left, but even then it was heads and shoulders above a campus whose nicest building was it's law school. Or Tims.

[BMoreX]

http://imgur.com/gallery/4fvlB

Scroll down to the last image.

[throwbackmuskie]

http://imgur.com/gallery/4fvlB

Scroll down to the last image.

Awesome find!